Toughest Question on the Soul (LIVE with JP Moreland)

[@jvt_redbaronspeaks4831]

More of Moreland!....fantastic!

[@barrygaynor1025]

I believe it was zc. S. Lewis who said: We don't have a soul, we are a soul, with a body wrapped around it. I agree with C. S. Lewis.

[@harlanlang6556]

I really enjoyed getting to know J.P.'s soul and his thinking. His understanding of the soul is very consistent with Baha'i concepts of the soul. In fact, I've never heard anyone other than a Baha'i express the reality of the soul as he did. So I'm impressed. The Baha'i Writings also assert that even the mineral is endowed with a level of soul, as is the vegetable with the spirit of growth, the animal with the spirit of the senses. Physicists now know that the primary reality of all material things is energy, that what appears to us as solid matter is actually mostly empty space with electrons being held together by the force of magnetism. So in a sense, the universe we perceive is an illusion. Language really falls short in its capacity to describe the soul, but we do our best, like J.P. (also my step-father's name) with metaphors. A Baha'i metaphor showing how the soul is connected to the body is that it is more like the image of the sun in a mirror. When the mirror breaks, the sun still exists, just as our soul continues to exist after our body "breaks". Another good metaphor is to compare the human brain with a radio. A primitive person who had never seen a radio would think that the music coming from the radio was being produced by something inside the radio, but in reality the music may be coming from miles away from a transmitter. The radio is just a receiver, as is the brain.

[@RedBird77]

Two of my favorite people in one video. Love this.

[@ThePreparedAdventist]

Really enjoying this. Met Dr. Moreland when he was invited to speak at La Sierra University back sometime around '98 - '00. I talked the poor man's ear off. He was so kind and patient despite we came from different theological backgrounds. Real gem of a guy.

[@BiblePsychology68]

Our soul is formed within time and space. Our Spirit is God breathed. At the moment of conception, God breathes his spirit and we become a living soul, housed in our mothers womb as our body forms around us.

[@fcastellanos57]

It is an error to think we have something called soul. Read Genesis 2 and see how Adam was made. He was from the dust, earthly, and the Almighty gave him a spirit, and he became a person or a soul which is a person in the Old Testament. There is nothing else in us. At death we die, and our spirit returns to the Almighty. The Most High will use that spirit to regenerate us so that we become immortal if we died in the faith of Jesus. We started to exist in our mothers"s womb, no where else.

[@grantbartley483]

I disagree, I think the embryo doesn't get a spirit until it starts to be conscious, which I take to be when the cortex starts working. The soul I take to be the immaterial expression of the spirit. And spirit is mind and heart and will together, Btw.

[@fcastellanos57]

@@grantbartley483 There are only two parts that make a human being, the physical self, which is us, and the spirit of God who comes to the womb something during the embryo development, that is all. No soul in that, what they say the soul is, pertains to the mental capacities which come from the activity of the brain.

[@BiblePsychology68]

@grantbartley483 interestingly enough, the heart forms and begins to beat before the brain begins to form. Check out the heart math institute.

[@grantbartley483]

@@fcastellanos57 I sort of agree, but I would say soul typically includes the contents of memory and personality as well as simple awareness, so it's more complicated than a simple dualism. I personally try to avoid 'soul' and stick to spirit, mind, will, and body.

[@PablaMMoore]

Jesus died at the cross to save our souls. There no doubt that we have been created by God with a body and a sould. There is no doubt about that for those that are christians.

[@markkemp4285]

That car/body analogy was really helpful

[@tomyossarian7681]

Sure. Except something that we know exists is hardly analogous to something we have not demonstrated to be real at all.

[@rlpsychology]

Whoa, Dr. Moreland is one of the most knowledgeable and crystal clear philosophers on this technical, critical subject. He is without a doubt in the top 10 clear communicating philosophers I've ever heard. Thanks so much, Dr. Moreland.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Agreed!

[@michaelsbeverly]

@@SeanMcDowell Seriously, Sean? Come on, JP speaks in word salads and nonsense. If he was respected outside the fold, it would be different. Doesn't it bother you that everyone else thinks he's nuts? You REALLY believe he and his Vineyard buddies are seeing angels and demons? What about God filling in teeth with gold? Do you believe that too?

[@tomyossarian7681]

Your statement may actually be true - just because it is all such nonsense that Moreland might be the guy with the least moronic narrative, while still being a moron to the bone. What does that tell you of all the other proponents of the soul? 🤭

[@michaelsbeverly]

😆@@tomyossarian7681

[@fcastellanos57]

He maybe a knowledgeable philosopher but he ignores what Scripture says about death and dying.

[@sophielesher8002]

he's making arguments that come across very logical and reasonable at first and I follow along, but then once he finishes a thought, I'm left more confused and have more questions. I'm not sure if I'm just not in the space for understanding today or if he is just being incoherent

[@BiblePsychology68]

Incoherent

[@markb3786]

@@BiblePsychology68 safe bet

[@PablaMMoore]

Yes. That is what most of Philosophy is about. Gibberish nonsense and doubt about who God is, his existence, and what He has done for all humans even when we do not deserve anything. We serve a just, loving, and merciful Almighty God!

[@sophielesher8002]

@@BiblePsychology68 that’s what I was thinking. glad I’m not alone

[@eugenetswong]

@@sophielesher8002 and biblepsychology, and markb, I finished watching the video. I was expecting it to be high brow information that was useless to us. I actually understood most of it, or at least found it informative enough to expand my understanding of scripture. Ask me any questions that you have. I could try to help.

[@trudymarsh7138]

The soul that sins dies when we die we cease to exist awaiting a cresurection

[@dann6893]

QUESTION: I've heard different commentators say that our SOUL is our individual personality, our talents and abilities, thoughts and feelings and that our SPIRIT is our consciousness and the essence of our "personhood." Both terms are mentioned in the Bible. Is the SOUL and the SPIRIT interchangeable???

[@markb3786]

absolutely this terms are definitely interchangeable

[@janicephillips6813]

I think there is a difference, like joints and marrow, soul and spirit... animals don't have eternity in their hearts like people do, but they do have personality and will, preferences, shame, even.

[@3DCounterApologetics]

9:56 Or it wasn’t an evolutionary advantage. It was a byproduct of evolutionary development…

[@barrygaynor1025]

Socrates believed we have a soul. Socrates student Plato believed we have a soul. Plato's student Aristotle believed we have a soul The Apostle Paul believed we have a soul. I believe we have a soul.

[@captainfantastic7843]

WOULD YOU CONSIDER THE EGO TO BE THE SCAFFOLDING REQUIRED TO BUILD A STRONG, BEAUTIFUL SOUL? LIKE A SCAFFOLDING IS REQUIRED TO BUILD A BEAUTIFUL TEMPLE OR CHURCH, BUT IS NOT THE ACTUAL STRUCTURE ITSELF? AND DOES THE SOUL INREGRATE ANALOGOUS TO HOW A CRYSTAL INTENGRATES?

[@markb3786]

horrible analogy. try again

[@captainfantastic7843]

@@markb3786 As if you could do any better troll. 🤣

[@harlanlang6556]

Crystals are a collection of atoms or molecules. The soul can not be divided into smaller parts, but is elemental in nature.

[@captainfantastic7843]

@@harlanlang6556 That was not the point. That was an analogy, as I stated clearly. I was trying to determine whether anyone connected to this video presentation had possibly read "The Planetarization Of Consciousness" by Dayne Rudhyar and could possibly expand upon his ideas about the soul and it's evolution. Thanks though.😉👍🏼

[@principleswise9749]

*We, human beings were created in the image of God. He conceived us in His Spirit before the times. He loved us before we had a body and a soul. God is a Creative Spiritual entity in essence. Like an Artist woud, He was inspired to create us and initiate a relationship with Him.* *So God created us exactly like Him', spiritual in essence. THAT IS OUR IDENTITY. (Not the breath of life) *Then He formed our physical bodies, coceived and born with a spiritual identity.* *Once we were ready, God blew in our nostrils the breath of life and we became a living beings (that was the breath of life and the seat of the freewill)* *With the freewill we are supposed to learn the word, train ourselves, our souls, so that our spirit becomes ignited and awaken.*

[@tomyossarian7681]

Was that an attempt to make as many assertions as possible without demonstrating any are true? Great job! 🤭

[@williamrunner6718]

I haven't watched the video yet but I will. I would simply ask though based on the title of the video, Please objectively and unambiguously define SOUL so that the audience can understand what you mean when you invoke this concept. All keywords, the words that make or break one's argument must be rigorously defined. SOUL_______________.

[@williamrunner6718]

@@Jimgoodwin846 You are plenty smart enough to understand any rational theory that someone proposes. You don't need advanced degrees and ability to work out complex mathematical equations. If someone makes a claim then they should be able to back up that claim. If they have a theory then they should be able to explain that theory. Science deals with rational explanations of phenomena. Religion on the other hand invokes the supernatural. Supernatural by default is irrational because it invokes the impossible. Think about these claims people make and if they can't explain the mechanism for something as in physical terms then they are talking religion not science. Anyone can believe whatever they want but why believe in something that's nonsense? Why? Just because some authority/priest told you it's true? If they can't explain it so that a child can understand it them they don't even understand it. I would leave that behind because it's BS.

[@hoffabrando007]

Question , was old king Saul a merry old soul, or did he have a soul.

[@Auroralover9797]

Hey Sean and Dr. Moreland. I really enjoyed this conversation. I actually bought Dr. Moreland's book after watching the last time he was on here. It's kinda difficult for me. I'm a photographer/artist, so more creative brain. Do you have any book recommendations that are more entry level on this subject? Thank you.

[@tomyossarian7681]

“Quit using you brain - just trust me” by Sean McDowell in his “Between The Lines of Dishonesty” series for dummies.

[@eugenetswong]

Maybe ask questions in these comment sections. People here might be willing to help.

[@eugenetswong]

Aurora, I finished watching the video. I was expecting it to be high brow information that was useless to us. I actually understood most of it, or at least found it informative enough to expand my understanding of scripture. Ask me any questions that you have. I could try to help.

[@Auroralover9797]

@@eugenetswong Hey Eugene thank you for the offer. I understood the video and liked it so much I bought the book Dr. Moreland wrote on the subject. That’s what is a bit much for me which is why I asked for a more entry-level book on the subject. If you have a book recommendation that'd be awesome.

[@eugenetswong]

@@Auroralover9797 You're welcome. I have no recommendations. You're welcome to ask about the book, if you want.

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

The soul is not a myth, but it's also not what trinitarians say it is.

[@dradelet]

Just a thought as I was listening to this: Maybe, just maybe, God created the physical world with boundaries because he wanted to embody his spirit children and so put a physical limit on them (because maybe that's impossible spiritually, with the will and all...), because he saw what happened to his spiritual children (the angels) when they desired his power and knowledge... He ended up having to create a hell to quarantine them, because death was not a possibility for spirit beings...

[@tomyossarian7681]

Maybe, just maybe, when Gandalf and the Istari left this world, they left it to false human gods. Or maybe, the Satan rules everything and spreads evil through all religions. He already killed god and Jesus and the rest of them. Maybe, just maybe, the aliens can resurrect and they made a mistake of coming to the shithole, resurrected themselves when we killed them and f'd off into deep space. Maybe.. Well, ad infinitum. Do you have a way to test these and countless others, before accepting them as true?

[@jovantelyne6716]

Does the university have accredited online courses?

[@m76353]

i kept wondering about how the bible actually interpreted the "soul", so i started looking it up. here is how the BibleProject interprets what the bible actually says about the "soul" or "nephesh" in hebrew: "So in the Bible, people don’t have a nephesh; rather, they are a nephesh--a living, breathing, physical being. Now that might surprise you because most people assume the Bible says the soul is what survives apart from the body after death. And while the biblical authors do have a concept of people existing after death waiting for their resurrection, they rarely talk about it. And when they do, they don’t use the word nephesh. So even though nephesh is often translated as soul, the Hebrew word really refers to the whole human as a living, physical organism. In fact, this is why biblical people can often use this word to refer to themselves. And it gets translated “me” or “I.” Like in Psalm 119"

[@m76353]

i think the soul this guy in the video is talking about is from Plato and other greek philosophers. altho this is all confusing af and i really don't know much about this topic personally

[@S1leNtRIP]

I just want to know where the assumption of substance dualism comes from. Why do we assume souls exist?

[@grantbartley483]

I think his argument is that you know your mind exists, and the soul is the substance of the ongoing mind, so because your mind exists your soul exists. One might critically inquire into the meaningfulness and reach of this definition of 'soul', though.

[@S1leNtRIP]

@@grantbartley483 Yeah, an assertion like "the soul is the substance of the ongoing mind" feels unsupported and kind baseless.

[@grantbartley483]

@@S1leNtRIP Well, it depends how you process it. The mind exists, so it has to be made of something, and it's not made of matter because it has no material properties. I tend to say that mind is made from experiences and thoughts, etc, This avoids bringing in any extra substance we know nothing about.

[@S1leNtRIP]

​@@grantbartley483 I understand the instinct to think all things that exist must be made of something...but it doesn't seem obvious that a "mind" would exist in the same way. Just like a computer program doesn't "exist" without hardware to run it. It's a non-physical thing that emerges from physical processes. A friggen miracle!

[@grantbartley483]

@@S1leNtRIP Yes, but first, it's not a great analogy, as the equivalent to software in the mind-brain case is not the mental contents per se, but the rules of brain activity which produce those contents. Plus, software surely is made of codes or rules anyway. I don't think the idea that thoughts are made of thoughts is that difficult to grasp, though. But thanks.

[@grantbartley483]

It would be helpful to define 'soul', say, as 'the immaterial vehicle of the mind'; or how should we define it?

[@tomyossarian7681]

“Imaginary construct used to sell moronic concepts to feeble minded”?

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

As the Bible teaches, a living person or animal is a soul. The soul is not a separate, spiritual self that exists inside the person as most deceived ppl think. God took dirt and made it a soul when He breathed life into it(Gen. 2:7). The soul is something that can and will eventually die.

[@grantbartley483]

@theeternalsbeliever1779 Yes, I think the OT conception is like Aristotle's, where the soul is the difference between a living animal and a corpse. If I remember correctly the Hebrew word translated 'soul' is 'nephesh', literally meaning throat, implying, whatever breathes has a soul. But I would be surprised if this is the definition Moreland is using. We don't know, because he doesn't tell us.

[@keyman6689]

Why would we think souls are gendered? If my soul was attached to a female body, I would perceive myself to be a woman. It seems to me gender comes from the body and how our soul experiences it.

[@m76353]

isn't the modern christian concept of the soul platonic, whereas the original ancient hebrew concept of the soul was more like an emergent property of our physical bodies? like i remember thinking it was interesting how the ancient hebrew concept was closer our current modern understanding. but that's not right?

[@m76353]

i kept wondering about how the bible actually interpreted the "soul", so i started looking it up. here is how the BibleProject interprets what the bible actually says about the "soul" or "nephesh" in hebrew: "So in the Bible, people don’t have a nephesh; rather, they are a nephesh--a living, breathing, physical being. Now that might surprise you because most people assume the Bible says the soul is what survives apart from the body after death. And while the biblical authors do have a concept of people existing after death waiting for their resurrection, they rarely talk about it. And when they do, they don’t use the word nephesh. So even though nephesh is often translated as soul, the Hebrew word really refers to the whole human as a living, physical organism. In fact, this is why biblical people can often use this word to refer to themselves. And it gets translated “me” or “I.” Like in Psalm 119"

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

Much like most of their customs and beliefs that were whitewashed as Christian, the Catholics and Protestants' belief about the soul came straight from the pagan religions and Gnostic philosophy. The ancient Israelites' understanding of the soul definitely don't match the modern understanding.

[@안항산]

Does anyone know the health status of J P Moreland? Is he okay? People can pray for his health with more information.

[@Meadow-qe9xd]

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻💕🕊

[@michaelsbeverly]

Why on earth would you need "more information"? That makes zero sense. But it does prove you don't actually care about praying for him (probably as you know it doesn't do any good) and you're just being nosy. It's super funny to me when guys like JP Moreland, who preach healing and miracles, don't see any, even for themselves, yet continue to mislead (and hurt) people. JP belongs (Or belonged when I attended with him) a Vineyard church, which was founded by John Wimber, who preached that Jesus heals. John died in his early sixties, obviously, John was wrong about Jesus, as is JP. Atheists get better or die at the same rate as Christians and prayer does nothing to change that. Btw way, my mom was pastor at the same church as JP, and also died very young of an incurable disease. Tell me, why are you going to pray when it does nothing at all? Wouldn't the time be better spent going to medical school and learning science? You do realize since the time of Jesus, there's not been a single verified real true healing from miracles and prayer, but millions and billions of people have been saved from terrible diseases by science? Just stop already, prayer isn't going to help JP, obviously, he belongs to a church movement that is based on healing, yet everyone still has the same medical experiences as atheists, HIndus, Mormons, Muslims, and everyone else. No difference being a Christian, well, maybe one difference, y'all have more frustration when your loved ones don't get better.

[@lhart5632]

​@paleoism Sounds like you need some prayer. God is not a pez toy to give us our wishes. He will, when we quit fighting against him, fill that spot inside us that we try to fill with other things, sex, drugs, alcohol, or even anger. Only he fills it with peace. I know, firsthand. Just ask him to help you.

[@michaelsbeverly]

@@lhart5632 The Hindus and the Mormons and the Muslims and every other religion says the same....'IF ONLY you'd obey and listen to THEIR God' I've found peace in my life, I left Christianity and became an atheist. Less stress, less anger, less depression, less hatred, EVERYTHING in my life improved.

[@lhart5632]

@paleoism I'm no religion expert, have no desire to be, but I know I couldn't escape from my anger, pain and being tied up in knots inside, until I surrendered to Jesus. Not to any church, but to Jesus. I go to church now and study the Bible, but I do that because I want to learn, know him more, and understand why he would love a lost cause like me. It doesn't make sense, but it is true and real.

[@majm9309]

Does he ever provide evidence of a soul at all or is it all just assumptions (and assumptions of what's happening with unknown events)?

[@Jimmy-iy9pl]

Providing justification for substance dualism was not the primary reason for this interview. But I think he does provide some arguments for thinking SD is true nonetheless.

[@leepretorius4869]

Does Moreland distinguish between spirit and soul?

[@TheGuy..]

Apparently not. I do though. I always wonder why you never see Christian guests making the distinction between these as scripture does. If they would then it seems there would be less confusion in understanding what is going on in the mind and body.

[@leepretorius4869]

@@TheGuy.. what do you think about the Old Testament using “soul” and “spirit” for humans and animals?

[@TheGuy..]

@@leepretorius4869 God calls the higher animals the "nephesh" creatures (animals with souls). God breathed the breath of life into man (a figurative expression) and he became a living soul, making man different than the animals. Eventually, the NT clarifies that we are body soul and spirit and all 3 will be saved. We also see that the word of God divides soul and spirit. Spirit is defined as the wind of the soul. I find the spirit to be our reflective nature and our soul to be our physical reactive, instinctual nature tied to our sensory attributes...sight, hearing, feeling, smell, taste...same as the higher animals. This is just a quick surface response. I have much more to say on this.

[@TheGuy..]

@@leepretorius4869 Check out...Google "tripartite Christian" and that will give insight to my understanding of what the scripture teaches us.

[@leepretorius4869]

@@TheGuy.. what do you make of the Old Testament texts that use PNEUMA and PSUCHE for animals?

[@rebeccaarcher5139]

What is a "primitive human being"?

[@m76353]

consciousness could be a way to conserve energy in the brain. for instance the thought experiment called "mary's room" could actually be explained with enough information, but consciousness might be the best way to make the information that explains our experience of the physical world the most energy efficient, which would be advantageous from an evolutionary perspective.

[@m76353]

i don't understand why christians would think that God wouldn't use physics and biology. it seems like this interpretation of christianity this guy on the video holds is completely illogical and possibly even unbiblical. the second sentence in the entire bible is about God speaking the universe into existence. if God spoke the universe into existence then the universe is God's word. we understand the physical universe thru logic, math and empirical evidence. i feel like if someone REALLY TRULY believes in God they should be holding logic, math and empirical evidence in the highest regard

[@Alien1375]

Question exist. Dr. Moreland: 'That question is wrong. Let me answer an other one'.

[@fcastellanos57]

I strongly disagree with JP Moreland when he says that we are conscious without a body. We, according to the Bible are spirit and body. Neither of these two parts can be without the other and have a consciousness., they need each other. When someone dies, the body is destroyed and the spirit returns to God, Ecclesiastes 12:10, but the spirit is not a person, it is a capacity which in union with the body gives us our consciousness and self awareness. Job 32:8 “ but it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty that give them understanding”

[@christopherhearn4309]

The Bible teaches that people are in a conscious state after they die: 2 Corinthians 5:8, Paul writes, “We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” No other options are given, either living on earth “in the body” or with God “at home with the Lord.” Similarly, Paul writes in Philippians 1:21-23, “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; …” In Luke 23:42-43, the thief on the cross said to Jesus, “‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.’” In Luke 16:19-31, both the rich man and Lazarus are conscious after death. Lazarus goes to be in the presence of the Lord (“Abraham's Side”) after he dies.

[@fcastellanos57]

@@christopherhearn4309 if this is true, then the Bible lied in the Old Testament but I don’t think is true. Ecclesiastes 9:10 “ Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.”, Psalm 3;5 “Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?”, Psalm 146:4 “4 When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.”, Psalm 115:17” The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence.” Isaiah 38:18-20 “For the dead[a] cannot praise you; they cannot raise their voices in praise. Those who go down to the grave can no longer hope in your faithfulness. 19 Only the living can praise you as I do today.”

[@christopherhearn4309]

@@fcastellanos57 No, the Bible isn't lying, we just need to read all of Scripture- both the Old and New Testaments. I trust that you believe that the New Testament is fully the Word of God, so why not take into consideration what it has to say on the subject? Also, I believe in gradual revelation. That is, after the New Testament was written, people knew a lot more about things (like life after death, the Trinity, deity of the Messiah, etc.) than when they only had the Old Testament.

[@fcastellanos57]

@@christopherhearn4309 The New Testament cannot contradict the Old, if the OLD is clear about what happens after death, then we have to read the New with this understanding and not change it for something we think the New says. One thing is to expand our knowledge of something that was partially taught in the Old and another is to totally disregard what it has been taught clearly in the Old. We are not spiritual beings, we are physical beings with a spirit borrowed from God which it returns at our death, there is nothing in the Old that says that we have a body but it says that we are the body that is formed inside our mothers endowed by a spirit which is the breath of the Almighty. Anything else we believe it is not from the Scriptures but pagan philosophy. Concerning the Trinity and the deity of Jesus, that is also something that it does not exist in the Old, furthermore, it is clear that the Almighty is One individual, one mind, not a collection of minds as it is written in Deuteronomy 6:4-15. “Here O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord…”

[@christopherhearn4309]

@@fcastellanos57 You can't disregard what is taught in the New Testament either. As far as the Trinity goes, to deny the Trinity you would need to deny the deity of either Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Yet each are ascribed full deity in Scripture.

[@williamrunner6718]

Okay, first, I'd say you commit reification by treating a concept like an object for Soul. Soul is not an object because it doesn't have shape. It's a concept or a relation of objects. It's the verb or the action in the rational sentence. It can't move or be moved. Concepts don't exist. They were invented by man for utility and to help explain phenomena. All concepts are defined. Only objects can exist in reality as far as in the context of science. Not all objects exist though. Only objects with location exist. So soul or it's synonym spirit does not exist.

[@johnhammond6423]

Its the 21st century and grown men are still talking about this nonsense?

[@waynerossiter9962]

Sadly, Moreland et al. always avoid the real issues with their view. The car analogy doesn't work. If I"m driving my car, and the steering wheel is broken, I am a fully functional driver in a car that doesn't work right. I recognized, "wow, I can't steer." But, with brain damage, heritable conditions, or forms of mental illness, it's not the car that's sick, it's the driver. It's exactly backwards from what Moreland describes. As a second point, it's not like a soul sits in a fetus and thinks "wow, it's dark in here...why can't I move?" No, the soul has no conscious life at that point, and consciousness emerges with physical development. Third, why exactly would anyone say, forget the name of that guy at church one day, but remember it another day, if it was just about the machine, and not the ghost? Why would the ghost forget? There are many other problems with Moreland's mind-body dualism.

[@m76353]

I agree with you 100%! Moreland seems to be talking about Platonism and the general Greek classic theism concept of the soul. What the bible actually says about the soul (Nephesh in Hebrew) is more inline with what you're saying if i understand it correctly.

[@mirandaschneider6049]

Weird, did you just say brain damage is a problem with the soul? Isn't that explicitly a physical damage? We seem to read our memories in a physical form, and beliefs are based on memories, so of course damage to memories could cause a change in beliefs and practices. A baby in the womb has no experience of anything else, so is not comparing his existence to anything else. We don't believe in reincarnation, that's the only theory that would expect babies to have soul memories. It is like finding yourself in a spaceship where more and more buttons become functional as you age and sometimes there are issues with the displays and sensor readings. If you saw enemy ships firing on you, you would probably fire back, but it could be a sensor issue and you are attacking an ally(new aggressive personality). What's amazing is that you can teach people that they are having a sensor issue and they will willfully change their behavior to match what is true and not what they are physically sensing. For example, OCD patients have a true brain issue which has been described to me as that they are unable to switch to autopilot, relaxed mode unless they perform rituals. But once they know that, they can use intentional thinking to bypass that and their brain actually changes to be more neural typical! It's amazing!

[@mirandaschneider6049]

As for the memory thing, surely you have tried to find some file on your computer or phone and been unable to one day, and then you can easily do it on another day. You are the "ghost" operating the machine. Or if that analogy is too much based on physical memory, you can see how physically speaking a file could be blocked or corrupted on your computer one day and then you have access it to the next, after work is done on the hardware

[@leftykiller8344]

There was some that Dr. Moreland talked about that I didn’t understand, but the car analogy does work. I think you’re having trouble with it because you’re conflating the mental thought of the experience, with the experience itself. Of course the baby doesn’t have complex thought yet, it doesn’t have the words or the experience to form the complex thought. Just because the baby doesn’t have the words or experience to express the thought, even internally, doesn’t mean it doesn’t have the experience at all. Substance dualism actually does relate well with the car analogy because it accounts for these things. Babies cry because they have a feeling/experience that they don’t know what to do with. After time, their crying becomes distinct to experienced feelings and responses to those feelings, and even turns to happy noises as they learn to emote good experiences correctly. 2 year olds tend to bite people when they are frustrated/angry and don’t have the words or experience to express what they want or feel yet. They have the experience, but not the function of a fully capable/experienced human yet. This analogy goes on until a person becomes fully developed, or doesn’t in the case of some people. The people who don’t fully develop, learn different coping mechanisms to compensate for the lack of other mechanics in their brain. Same with a car. If your breaks don’t work right but you have a manual transmission, you learn that downshifting can slow you down, but doesn’t function as well as stomping on the brakes. The difference between a two year old and the person with the abnormal brain in the analogy would be that the two year old doesn’t have the brakes fully installed yet, while the abnormal brain never ends up having them installed. Depending on the level of damage of function, the level of expression could be near normal, or completely different from normal. In summary, for the substance dualist, the soul’s ability to express is directly related to the function of the body, but the ability to experience is not necessarily related to the function of the body. Sorry for being so long winded, but hopefully it was helpful.

[@waynerossiter9962]

@@mirandaschneider6049 It would be very strange indeed to say that memories were physical, at least for someone like Moreland. Moreland's dualism puts a totipotent soul inside a physical body, such that the soul is not the body (they are truly separable). This means a soul is put into a fertilized embryo, and is there during fetal development. For Moreland, the soul and conscious mind are essentially identical. The mind also is non-physical and different from the brain. In short, he holds the old "ghost in the machine" dualism. For example, in his car analogy, there is a mind (the driver) and a machine (the car). The machine is damaged such that you can't steer the car. But, the driver is not. Therefore, the driver is fully conscious and aware of their present limitations (the steering wheel doesn't work right). Thus, the driver (mind) would say, "I'm capable of driving, but the car is broken," fully realizing the limitations. That's not how brain damage, mental illness, or mental disabilities work. It's the driver who's damaged, along with the car. A truer analogy would be if something happened to the car such that the driver could no longer turn the car, not that the car couldn't turn. Memories are a good example. There's no psychical or spiritual explanation as to why we forget things. All of this also begs the question of what the mental state is when the soul leaves the body. For example, what is the conscious state of a soul in a stillborn baby?

[@yvonnekneeshaw2784]

Sorry tad beyond me

[@AmericanAmbience]

Man does not have soul wile alive but when humanbeings die they become soul just like a cocoon becomes butterfly. Huaman beings are intermidiary earthly creatures to evolove into spiritual beings. That is the large scale plan and final products of universe as far as I realised.

[@pammichel8314]

To begin with, you're wrong about the soul. But in addition, your analogy is faulty. A butterfly is a butterfly even in the egg stage. It enters the caterpillar stage, but it's essence of being is still a butterfly. It finally enters the pupal stage & forms a chrysalis. The caterpillar isn't dead, it's just going through a huge stage of metamorphosis (like a kid in college). At the end of this stage, the adult butterfly emerges ready to begin the cycle all over again. It is still the same creature as it was when it was an egg. Any soul or consciousness it has is there from the beginning. Oh, & FWIW, a cocoon turns into a moth, not a butterfly. It's been a moth since it was an egg...same story.

[@AmericanAmbience]

@@pammichel8314 Then prove you have a. Soul? ?!!

[@AmericanAmbience]

@@pammichel8314 I used itas an earthly example. Watch sathyoyamo . We will be transformed like angels.

[@dann6893]

@@AmericanAmbience What do you mean by proof?

[@AmericanAmbience]

@@dann6893 I mean we are like a mid way being who will become spirit or soul to after death .Human beings are like seeds of soul as if a weat that fals on earth and become a plant . That is called metamorphosis . Proof ? That is to say the death and life after ecperiences of so many .

[@michaelsbeverly]

A fun chat, Sean, but really, if you want to be fair, you cannot evade questions about someone's overall belief system and worldview. Since JP belonged to Vineyard Anaheim (before it was taken over by others) and believed all kinds of crazy things and even admitted on this stream that he and his Vineyard buddies have seen and fought demons and seen angels, that DOES have a influence over his credibility. It's not "off-topic" anymore than asking a if a vegan's worldview is influencing their newly released cookbook. Of course it is! Of course JP's strange cultic Vineyard beliefs have an influence on his credibility. I mean, the very fact you're ashamed to bring it seems to prove you know this. Let's chat about the $62,000,000 theft of JP's former church's assets and the $51,000,000 Ponzi Scheme (that I believe, but don't know for sure, that JP lost money in - I know for a fact some of his friends lost millions). This Ponzi lead to at least one Yorba Linda suicide, and as Taleb says, "to see a fraud and not call it a fraud, is itself a fraud." Hit me up, I'm easy to find on my tiny like hobby channel, I'll be happy to provide documentation if you're doubting any of this stuff.... JP is a toxic source and you might want to be aware of that before you keep endorsing his viewpoints.

[@pammichel8314]

Meh...you're definitely off topic. You can have a panel of experts in a particular field, say heart surgery, & yet each one likely has a different worldview. If one is Hindi & another Christian, they can still both be experts in cardiology. If Dr. Moreland has made a lot of screwups in life, he can still be qualified to address philosophical topics like the soul.

[@michaelsbeverly]

@@pammichel8314 Cardiology is science. Hindu and Muslim and Christian and Mormon and Calvinist doctors don't have arguments about the nature of cardiology or the science and biology of the heart broken down along ideological lines. There isn't a field of Mormon heart surgery and a field of Calvinist heart surgery and a field of Hindu heart surgery. While, I'd imagine, there are some disagreements in the medical science of cardiology, the don't break across religious ideological lines. You don't get some special different kind of heart surgery in Salt Lake City than you do in City of Hope in Los Angeles, as an example. If an discussion about the soul is a philosophical discussion (as you admit) then someone's philosophy is relevant. Since JP Moreland believes he's actually seen angels and demons, since he was associated with a cult movement (research the Vineyard, it's a dangerous and manipulative cult, I mean, just Google Airport Vineyard "gold teeth" and see what I mean -- and realize in his book on Miracles, JP endorses this insanity). You do make an excellent point here, that real science, like cardiology, doesn't have arguments in the field that are broken down between different religions. So, take that to it's logical conclusion. Because the argument about the "soul" is broken down across ideological lines, it's obviously not science. You cannot measure the soul, or view it, see it, test it, falsify it, or make a model of the world in which souls exist and then test the model. It's therefore very relevant and on topic that JP believes, for example, that when his daughters wanted a swimming pool, in their wealthy neighborhood house in Southern California, that God provided a cheap swimming pool by having a superintendent of a large pool company extort his subcontracts (a crime in California) to get JP a cheap pool. Note, this isn't me making an unfounded accusation, it's what JP wrote in his book about Miracles. He is obviously unhinged and a getting old, perhaps a bit senile, he's certainly not a good source for trying to have a rational and intelligent discussion about important matters. So, yes, it is relevant what he believes in related fields to a discussion on the "soul" since such a discussion isn't like say, discussing cardiac surgery or evolution or gravity or quantum physics (all things he's equally unqualified to talk about, obviously). For religious discussions, sure, he's as qualified as anyone to discuss the soul, as it's not science, it's just like any new age mumbo jumbo nonsense, so yeah, he can talk about it, I grant that....but then, of course, his religious affiliations matter, his beliefs matter, his home church matters.

[@dradelet]

So who with what worldview is qualified to unbiasedly philosophy about the soul?

[@pammichel8314]

@paleoism I don't know either Sean or Dr. Moreland. But personally, you're the one coming across as unhinged to me. IDK what your personal axe is to grind, but I know people who have a great deal of respect for Dr. Moreland. You seem to think he's unqualified to talk about all sorts of things, yet he's the professor talking about them. Is there some kind of jealousy at play here? The world is full of all sorts of spiritual warfare & just because I haven't experienced all of it myself, I don't deny what other people I know say they've encountered. I guess you consider yourself qualified to deny demonic & angelic encounters? Hmmm. Tell that to the apostles... It seems you're more interested in making accusations than discussing the actual topic. If I were able (or had any desire) to examine your personal life, I'm betting that I could come up with plenty of disqualifications for your position to be pointing fingers. I doubt you care, but my advice is to check your pride... It comes before the fall...

[@michaelsbeverly]

@@dradelet You're missing the point. Anyone can philosophy about the soul, since it's imaginary, you don't need any qualifications. My point is that if you want to have a serious discussion about it, listening to a guy that thinks he sees angels and demons and that God fills people's cavities with gold at revivals is kind of silly.