Is it more rational to believe in God? (4/4)

BBC One 04 May 2014
Nicky Campbell presents a pre-recorded special from Manor Church of England School in York, asking just one Big Question - is it more rational to believe in God?
Guests include the philosopher, Julian Baggini, Oxford professor of science and religion, Alister McGrath, Dr Lois Lee, founder of the Non-religion & Secularity Research Network, Dr Vince Vitali from the Oxford Centre for Apologetics, Dr Fern Elsdon-Baker, Centre for Social Relations, Coventry University, Muslim apologetic, Adam Deen, author and broadcaster, Margaret Coles, former clergyman now atheist, Ollie Killingback, Satish Sharma of the National Council of Hindu Temples and former Mormon and Muslim turned atheist, Clare Solomon.

[@grahamash-porter7795]

Atheism is a belief system is like saying Off is a TV channel!

[@TheClaudius07]

if you sit there and watch that for hours on end, then it does become and behave exactly as a tv channel... there is no difference, except the entertainment is not as good....

[@daaaaaaaaave]

TheClaudius07 You're trying too hard. It's almost troll-like at this point.

[@KitsuneShapeShifter]

TheClaudius07 No, why would you stay and watch an empty TV screen? Get up, go out into the forest instead of watching TV and have a good time in reality :3

[@m-zap1332]

It is a belief system. Based on whatever reasons, you 'believe' that the TV has no channels, so you keep it turned Off. You can't however prove that this belief is true so it remains a belief and not a fact.

[@KitsuneShapeShifter]

Mapajas Actually it's more like the *rejection of the claim that it does* have channels until it can be shown that it does. A-Theism is only the position on a specific claim; the Theistic claim. If, let's say, we were talking about faries and witches; an A-Fairist or A-Witchist reject that claim the has been made that there are fairies or witches. *A-anything cannot exist unless there is a positive claim.* A-anything is the rejection of a positive claim, not a claim on it's own. It's like; Dragonist: ''I've got an incorporeal, invisible dragon in my garage that loves me'' A-dragonist: ''I reject that claim.'' Of course, any skeptical person should ask for evidence before rejection a claim, but my point is, the rejection of a specific claim or belief is not a belief or claim itself; but it can be made into one's beliefs if one makes a postive claim out of the rejection like; A-dragonist: ''There are NO DRAGONS!'' That would be a belief because both the claim that there is and isn't, is unfalsifiable and untestable, and as you said, therefore an opinion; BUT; A-dragonist: ''I remain unconvinced.'' Is simply saying that the burden of proof on the maker of the positive claim has yet match the standard of evidence of the recipient of the claim. Summary: Being unconvinced is not a belief; because a belief requires the acceptance of something, while being unconvinced means that the claim or proposition presented has not met the standard of evidence of the recipient. Being convinced of something is what beliefs are formed out of, whether consciously or unconsciously; we have to be convinced of something, no matter how matter of factly it may seem to someone who is already convinced, before beliefs can be formed. =)

[@eskilstuna0123]

The atheist who states that "atheism is a belief system" has a lot of nerve to presuppose that I, or any other atheist share anything other than a belief in the fact that there exists no god.

[@TheJohmac]

"a belief in the fact that there exists no god" is a belief system, whether you are prepared to accept that fact or not. In fact, many atheists would disagree with that characterisation. Most assert that they simply have no belief that there is s God. While there are certainly a vast array of deverse opinions and beliefs among atheists, that aversion to the notion of a higher power, creator, God, whatever you want to call it, has implications regarding the system of beliefs that will manifest in a person's mind. The precise nature and outcomes associated with those beliefs is certainly up for debate, but denying that it is a belief system is either intellectually dishonest or at least lacking in self awareness.

[@eddiegonzalez2]

this episode makes me realize that dawkins, harris or hitchens was needed here..these athiests in the panels cannot debate at all

[@danceworld7026]

Exactly, they were just beating around the bush, even the lady said atheism is a belief system. Absolutely ridiculous

[@stiryotype4695]

free will is indeed a very strong case against god. The problem here is not that god knows what i will do before i do it, the problem is that god knew what i will do BEFORE he even created me. Therefore while creating me, god basically made me to become what he already knew. And this is a serious issue, because it basically means that if i end up in hell, then god knew that i will go to hell BEFORE he created me. Therefore god created me to go to hell, therefore god is evil.

[@stiryotype4695]

***** did god know if i wil go to heaven or hell BEFORE he created me?

[@stiryotype4695]

***** no i can not see the future, so i do not know if i will go to prison. But god knows everything in the future. So i ask you again: did god know if i will go to heaven or hell before he created me?

[@stiryotype4695]

***** so does god already know if i will accept the free gift or not. And if he knows this, when exactly did he know? before he created me? or did he always know from the beginnig of time.

[@stiryotype4695]

*****​ if he knew I would be stubborn before he created me...and the with this knowledge he proceeded to create me ...then this means that he intentionally created me to stubborn . Isn't it? 

[@stiryotype4695]

***** how can I fight against a fictional character? Its like saying zeus will humble me. There was a time when mad people like you thought he was god.

[@telfordguy34uk]

Atheism is an absence of faith, it is not a faith.

[@hahmed6209]

Faith is not a virtue, but a sign of madness.

[@MrStanleyHudson]

sam harris shouldve been invited to this debate

[@rooneyscape]

Each of these religious sects smugly believing in their own god cults. Has the muslim, hindu or jew asked themselves which version they would believe if, say they were brought up in a christian family. Surely "god" doesn't solely act via random accidents of birth (although most life experiences seem to suggest that) that doesn't sound like a fair, egalitarian god. No one was asked who they thought made up the greek and roman gods and why, although they would undoubtedly agree they were made up. Human societies obviously create gods for comfort and control. Humans believe in "gods" to explain something they can't comprehend. They can't imagine the universe, or universes just always existing, unbound by time, because our lives (in the scheme of the universe) are but a flicker. Even if there was a god (and there clearly isn't) there is not one shred of evidence that he has the slightest interest or influence in anything that happens here on Earth. It is understandable that primitive societies have gods, it is terrifying to me that any religious beliefs persist in a rational society. If it is not possible to live a good, decent, loving life without believing in the great sky fairy what are we?

[@willievanstraaten1960]

I, as an Atheist, believe many things, but I worship none.

[@sugarmouse3555]

There was almost no challenge to the deist beliefs today. I didn't abandon faith to become an atheist. I just came to realise I was one because there was as much evidence for God and Jesus as for the Easter Bunny.

[@pathfinder1273]

So now you hop around in a bunny suit hiding chocolate eggs?

[@onsenguy]

the psychology of belief is extremely relevant. with few exceptions, people believe what they were taught to believe since infancy. geography plays a massive role in what god is believed in. childhood indoctrination is what determines it.

[@nektekket852]

Short answer, no. Long answer, noooooooooooooo. There are no "gods".

[@pathfinder1273]

How would you know?

[@tedgrant2]

We know that humans have invented gods. Millions ! It's a fact that isolated tribes believe in one or more gods or spirits. It's a simple way of explaining the various mysterious facts we observe. What does make the sun go across the sky each day ? Why won't my messages go ?

[@KenMerrell]

Atheism is not a problem. People evolving toward non-belief is not a problem. It's simply a natural phenomenon.

[@BedsitBob]

Atheism is a belief system, in the same way that not collecting stamps, is a hobby.

[@767scarecrow]

You cracked the code.

[@TjamVideoMan]

2:01 - “Atheism thinks that science will lead us to the promised land” . Science makes no such promise, religion does! But if there were a “promised land” science would get us there before religion!! . Religion HAS been promising a “promised land” for THOUSANDS of years now and we are NO closer than when they first made that BOGUS promise!!

[@kwamecharles6037]

😂😂😂

[@AkaliciousZA]

Very soon she is gonna be an ex atheist if she thinks atheism is a religion

[@AmmaribnAzizAhmed]

The discussion here between theists and atheists was more respectful than what I've been used to seeing and so that was a pleasant surprise. Militant atheists like Sam Harris and militant religious people like for eg, Anjem Choudary need to be put out the picture and this sort of intellectual and respectful discussion must take place more often.

[@timdonald4092]

Saying Sam Harris is a militant atheist is ridiculous.

[@ozzyzee1770]

Sam Harris is a war mongering zionist however.

[@bpdrumstudio]

Funny how people talk about God and not one God in history has ever been proven to exist only continued to be asserted that it is.... And people still talk FOR him,giving him characteristics and attributes and continues to be an invisible sky dictator absentee landlord

[@pathfinder1273]

God has been proven to exist several times. Unfortunately people like you expect the proof of God to be more compelling than any other proof. What proof do you have that stars, black holes, nebulae, and galaxies exist? Have you ever encountered one: directly, first-hand, "in the flesh"? No, you take the word of astronomers for it. How about atoms and molecules? Have you done the experiments that prove they exist? Scoffing is not much of an accomplishment.

[@nahumhabte6210]

One of the most interesting episodes of the show i have come across

[@pathfinder1273]

Wow, this was an amazing discussion, all four episodes. I am astounded by the civility and rationality of the Christians in this group, particularly Alistair McGrath. If I had to be a Christian again, I would hope it would be like him. The atheists were also very tolerant, which is surprising because as a group they are mirror images of fundamentalist Churchians (if you disagree, have a look at the comments for these four videos). Fortunately I follow a path where all of these issues are resolved, but it is wonderful to see that humans can still get together and discuss their diversity with candor and respect.

[@thehistory5401]

Haha its fake, they should be more real and say what they truly think.

[@pathfinder1273]

@@thehistory5401 Oh, look, another troll.

[@thehistory5401]

@@pathfinder1273 dude, theyre being dishonest on both sides. Too many rules. Wheres a Hitchens type atheist? or an ISIS type muslim? who would atleast be honest about the intolerance of religion.

[@pathfinder1273]

@@thehistory5401 Words are cheap. Give some examples or stop making claims. Hitchens is dead, and his type of atheism is no better than the worst kind of religion. He was basically a self-righteous bully. Very few scientists even endorse his brand of irreligion. Religion is not intolerant, that is entirely due to the ignorance of people who claim to follow it but use it for their own ends. Those of us who have studied, learned, and practiced religion know that it was not intended to be what it has largely become.

[@thehistory5401]

@@pathfinder1273 you made the claims " I follow the path where these issues are resolved"..... In a free discussion, religion never holds up... people should be honsest about the brutal stuff their books say

[@pepeesq.7966]

This was a beautifully respectful episode. Much enjoyed.

[@freebeing6952]

The god of the Bible doesn't get to create hell, demand his creation to love him or burn in said hell, and then get to say that we go to hell by our own free will. I call bullshit. Love me or burn? Sounds like the claim of an extreme narcissist -- not the loving sky daddy so many Christians attempt to portray. Think people!

[@patrickparker8417]

+Free Being No he is a holy God that created you and died for you , if that does not change your way of thinking then im afraid your finished .

[@freebeing6952]

And I'm afraid you're not thinking at all. Go ahead and worship your imaginary narcissist bully. I will not drink that tainted punch.

[@DaAlphaOmega]

Typical! "Believe or else!". "Worship me or burn for eternity" Doesn't matter how good a person I am.If I don't get on my knees and worship God I'm finished? Those are the conditions of a psychopath!

[@notbob8252]

great conversation topics I feel like these people are way too easy on a religious believers they often times are much too nice to actually get to any real discussion about truth in subjects that they discuss

[@rominiyi1385]

"We have to recognize that often this isn't a conversation about science. This is a conversation about theological debates about literarists interpretation of texts. It's nothing to with (the) science. I don't have to talk about evidence to do with evolutionary theory because actually you're having a conversation that's intra to your own faith perspective. Other people from your own faith perspective will probably challenge your stance". You couldn't have put it better although he probably had no idea of what you were talking about .. otherwise he would have at attempted to say something ...

[@ophirdog]

If people lived forever would they still be religious?

[@benthejrporter]

Why not? Unless you're saying that religion and death are connected. How?

[@ophirdog]

Ben Thejrporter Yes, I was connecting religion with death. If you take heaven out of the picture, religion is just a social group. Heaven is the prize everyone is playing for.

[@benthejrporter]

ophirdog So therefore religious people's belief in Heaven, or any other form of the Afterlife, can be explained by wishful thinking even if there is no Afterlife? I can't disagree that might be the case with some of them. However I tend to think there's a similar element with NON-belief in the Afterlife. If one thinks that belief in the Afterlife is a "comforting illusion" or "a way of escaping the fear of death" etc, then anybody who rejects the concept of the Afterlife is a pretty superior person! They have the strength of character to get up every morning without that crutch. I can well imagine that this state of mind is extremely seductive. To the point that it becomes wishful thinking NOT to believe in the Afterlife even if the Afterlife DID exist. Bertrand Russell was particularly proud of his status thereof, I detect in some of the things he said. And there are others.

[@ophirdog]

Ben Thejrporter I can't remember a time when I believed there was an afterlife. It is impossible for me to believe something if my brain tells me it's wrong. I would only be fooling myself and what would be the point in that. So if it's not heaven that is the attraction, what is? Pure love of the creator?

[@benthejrporter]

ophirdog I'm sure Heaven is the attraction for some people! Just as the ABSENCE of Heaven is for others. If your lack of belief in the Afterlife is for honest reasons, good for you. However some of your peers may not be as sincere when they profess their accord.

[@jordanrandle3492]

God is all knowing/omniscient and we possess free will. He must know the future. If God knows the future then there is an already pre determined pa ) th that you will take. He knows the path that you will choose. God already knows what path you will take thereby eliminating free will of the path that is already decided on. If you somehow know the path, and you change it, your God would have already known you would do that making it the same one path. If God has a plan, there is no free will. If God knows the future, then there is already a predetermined path that you will follow no matter what. Eliminating free will. We either don't have free will or God doesn't exist.

[@divxxx]

+jordan randle Furthermore, if god is good and knows what's gonna happen, and he is all-powerful, he has the moral duty of intervention. If he does not intervent to prevent bad things to happen either he is not moral or good, or is not all-powerful.

[@iosho3473]

You both are doing proper arguments.

[@gabrieldossantos3468]

How do you know if your loved ones love you , when the love stops divorce begins

[@tjblues01]

I don't get it... Porf. Alister McGrath agreed that Adam and Eve are symbolic. So where the original sin came from? Or it is also symbolic? Therefore Jesus needlessly died on the cross (in simplistic terms).

[@richardmooney383]

The problem of omniscience and free will is not that God controls what will happen but that if he knows what will happen even He does not have free will.

[@pathfinder1273]

That makes no sense.

[@r4hnsn]

The atheist argument that the religious culture one is born into determines the God we follow, simply does work in today`s world of multicultural countries and the fact that many leave the religion of their parents and their culture. My entire family tree and cousins etc were predominantly atheist or agnostic but at age 28 i discovered God was real and still is 30 yrs on.

[@garrybarclay]

The plural of anecdote is not data.

[@notbob8252]

you're totally missing about the reasoning part it's not that we claimed that an all-knowing God causes you to do something it's that an all-knowing God that can perfectly foresee the future that allows certain things to happen without warning two individuals who can't see the future is tantamount to allowing a child to step into a busy street and get hit by a bus is it causing the accident no is it at fault for the accident yes

[@rationalsceptic7634]

So God can know everything without causing anything? So how does he change his mind or cause the Cosmos..just Apologetical nonsense!!

[@pathfinder1273]

Wow, there was no twisting of what was said in that comment, was there?

[@rooneyscape]

adherence to religion by country appears to be inversely proportional to available education

[@dirtymikentheboys5817]

Wow this has to be one of the most respectful atheist and theist debates if seen/heard. Good job.

[@fbarnea]

That's because nobody said anything, and there were no challenges from the scientists/atheists. Atheism is a belief system...I'm sorry what?! Is "non belief in some fictional character that somebody will invent 100 years from now" a belief system? How does not accepting somebody's story a belief system?

[@dirtymikentheboys5817]

@@fbarnea .......no. your definition is kind dishonest. Its not just a lack of belief anymore, it may of been. But when you have billboards and radio program's, you are espousing a message that lack of belief is a better or more truthful state for humans to progress toward. I get the technical definition. But the behavior speaks to something else.

[@fbarnea]

@@dirtymikentheboys5817 what behaviour? Behaving as if some fictional character doesn't exist? What are you talking about? If I start putting up billboards saying the Flying Spagetti Monster doesn't exist, does that mean I have a "belief system"? You can call naturalism a belief system. Not atheism. Do you believe that the Divine Green Marble exists? Be careful how you answer that, it might define who you are as a person.

[@dirtymikentheboys5817]

@@fbarnea Well. I wouldn't want you to behave as a flying spaghetti monster exist. Because I don't know of any evidence of such a thing existing. But characteristics of deities exist. Such as creation and order. But for me and most scholars the evidence for christ is isn't arguable. Its a belief system because you are saying something with no evidence, does or doesn't exist. Which with no information how can one ,..make a response. So what you ESPOUSE . Is a belief. Strictly due to lack of factual anything.. The whole "just a lack of belief " isn't what i have observed. And other theist/deist. And the behavior is arguments, websites, disrespectful comments and statements and other actions...thats make modern atheism ANTI......theistic instead of neutrality. And you speak in the English language with knowledge. Not the lack of it knowledge making it a grammatical quagmire. Yes. I believe christ can have and own marbles making then divine i guess. Odd question.

[@fbarnea]

@@dirtymikentheboys5817 wow, just wow. How can you behave as if the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist? What does that mean??? Can you even hear yourself? Also, I'm not saying God doesn't exist. I'm not saying anything. I don't even want to be part of the conversation. But I am forced to when you infringe on my liberty, and you force me to say that your delusion isn't real, just so I can live my life how I want. Do you realise that the only difference between me and you is that you deny 1 less god than me? Do I force you to prove that Buddha doesn't exist? Or Thor? Or any other of the thousands of gods humanity invented? No. So why do you expect me to have to prove that the one God you picked doesn't exist??

[@anton1949]

Actually, Atheists, Theists use that same word "believe" one believes ,the other doesn't believe, so, Agnostic is what we all are because they say "I don't know" I have no proof, just what the Theist, and Atheist are up against.

[@stephanwilliams8082]

Atheism is not a religion. Get an educated woman on, not just someone who has been dragged through the system and talks rubbish.

[@patrickparker8417]

+Stephan Williams There is no such thing as atheism .

[@2msystems740]

The greatest feat of the religious in the 20th century : respect and tolerance towards religions. How can one be expected to respect and tolerate this delusional crap? And further, how difficult does it become to respect an individual when they keep spouting this medieval crap.?

[@brianlaudrupchannel]

how can them people at the start answer them questions? They simply made them answers up out of there ass

[@laeequenadvi4746]

Almighty Allah Created Man.Allah says in HOLY Qur'an: " Verily We created Man of potter's clay of dark mud altered. (Qur'an,15:26) dark clay which produces a sound like pottery.Taking verses 26 and 29 together,I understand the meaning to be: that man's body was formed from wet clay moulded into shape and then dried unroll it could emit sound; that it was then further fashioned and completed: that into the animal form thus fashioned was breathed the spirit of Allah, which gave it a superiority over other Creation: and that the order for obedience was then given. Almighty Allah created you from a single sole and from it created it's mate and from them twain hath spread a multitude of men and women. ( QUR'AN, 4: 1) (1)Clay Minerals and Origin of Life. (2)Genetic Takeover: and the mineral origin of life, Seven Clues of the Origin of Life. (3) The life Puzzle: on crystals and organisms and on the possibility of crystal as an ancester.

[@ThatisnotHair]

Another garbage nonsense

[@ReddFoxx1562]

Allah must weep at your ability to represent him so nonsensically.

[@rgravi]

🤮

[@stephanwilliams8082]

Your god knows all! Does it know it doesn't excist? Ban religious instruction from our schools. STOP CHILD ABUSE.

[@billmcdonald4335]

Burden of Proof to Koran: it's on you, Sporty.

[@rjskeptic5273]

We don't have free will.

[@rationalsceptic7634]

Im Church of England...I am a Christian but I'm also an Agnostic...I can tell jokes in Latin and Hebrew ha

[@darkside197929]

If God knows what's going to happen before it happens then punishing the world for the sins of Adam and eve for eating the apple sounds like intrapment!

[@CalvinGeorgeSisyphus]

Sublimely absurd.

[@jasonsacrifice1]

Atheist?

[@truthvsfalsehood3924]

Good and Bad has wisdom and guidance from GOD..that is how we all learn. .that is how GOD taught us all to use our head..😉

[@kryptonianmessiah2388]

Are you a god lets find out in 1 question. If you could cure cancer, would you? If you answered yes, you are not a god.

[@dommidavros2211]

If the answer to your question is "No" I guess you're a Christian who believes in a God who's a total bastard!

[@rooneyscape]

God loves cancer and all his other sacred diseases. He keeps coming up with new ones too, what a scamp

[@goongavel8118]

no...........................

[@hahmed6209]

There is no God ..... rationalising & philosophising won’t make it any more real.

[@BorittoYO]

Great debate, God knows best.

[@tonyfrost6348]

No, it isn’t. Is it rational to believe in Hogwarts?

[@fidelsantos3271]

did Judas Iscariot has FREEWILL....what is he took a different route?????

[@laeequenadvi4746]

Islam leads us the straight way. Humabeing is wandering aimlessly , and the first step is to find the Way, We must ask for Almighty Allah's guidance. " Show us the straight way". ( QUR'AN, 1:6)