Training Without Conflict® Podcast Episode Seventeen: Susan Garrett

[@so-pf3pb]

whether you agree or not with either trainer, much respect that they were both willing to have an intelligent, respectful conversation.

[@k9-1]

don’t know how Ivan kept a somewhat straight face.. Here are my cliffnotes: In her intro, she tells a really nice story that resonates with all of her followers. She says her parents never punished her or her 8 siblings, so therefore she was inspired to never punish her dogs in training and explains how she wrote the “Best Dog Book of the Year” according to the Dog Writers Association of America (BTW A distinction also shared by William Koehler’s brutal obedience book where he explains how to hang dogs) and is the world champion of AGILITY where pretty much everyone agrees that positive reinforcement is the best way to train a dog that is basically doing zoomies, having fun, and getting rewarded. Her dogs live on twenty-something acres, with a full-time trainer, and are allowed to jump and bark on guests. Sooooo, not really the average dog household. Then, two hours later, after she talked about everything she did with OWN dogs, she forgot her original fairytail and talks about how her parents used negative punishment on her.. then, goes on and on about how she uses haltis, because she doesn’t know a better way to have her dogs obey in public, and how she spends 3 months twisting the puppies heads around (escape conditioning/negative reinforcement),, etc. with it before going outside (used for positive punishment/negative reinforcement). Then she says that her use of halti collars may “trigger” some people, but no one understands the magic way that she “conditions” them to it (even though we know it is escape conditioning) because none of it matters if the dogs “consented” to it by willingly wearing the haltis. Meanwhile about 20 minutes before this she admits that she has no idea how to “condition” a dog to an ecollar (which triggers her), and fails to notice the irony of her own frantic explanation. Meanwhile, Ivan is DESPERATELY trying to get her to just say what she means and use words like punishment and reinforcement correctly.. And also explain to her that she is explaining exactly how trainers use the other aversive tools… But noooooo, she is different because her goal is to not use the aversive as much after the initial training, as if that is any different from what anyone else is doing.. Again, Ivan somehow keeps his cool. Then, calls herself more curious than Ivan because she only dreams of using one of the four quadrants of operant conditioning, but Ivan is LESS curious because he studies all training and even read her book??!!! Then she also says that she does not have the luxury of using tools to train a dog, although she just went on a rant minutes before about how she needs to use a halti collar if her dogs are to venture out into the real world, as if all training revolves around games and agility. Also, no one is stopping her from tossing and turning all night to try to figure out how to make the world work in only one quadrant of operant conditioning...that is her fantasy. Oh, then she said “She doesn’t understand why there is such a divide in the dog training industry”,...REALLY. You can easily find footage of her telling people to walk away from trainers that punish or correct, something she clearly does herself. Meanwhile Ivan is allowing her to plug herself on the podcast, while the comments are spammed with what she is selling. Too much cringe over three hours to write everything… Susan was seriously the most self-riteous trainer I think I ever heard talk in my life and is completely delusional to what harm she causes by telling her thousands of followers these same delusions. Very sad. I am so impressed with Ivan for his ability to talk to someone so out of touch like this and stay so composed. He is speaking nothing but the truth and Susan is irresponsibly putting her “story” and whatever she is selling before the truth and fights tooth and nail not to admit to anything that contradicts her fairytail.

[@logun24x7]

I found myself wanting to yell at the computer screen a few times, I'm impressed at Ivan's composure. Unfortunately as usual you have the dug in the sand attuned of the FF trainer and the balanced trainer side that has to be the open minded accommodating side. I was really trying to take away the magic trick of having a conversation with my dog with multiple layers of reinforcement but sadly all I got out of this was was multiple layers of contradictions. At one point Susan said NO, ... she could not tell the difference between a dog that was trained with aversives vs one that had been taught with just reinforcement and hour later she tells us how emotionally damaging it is to use aversives on the dog. Unfortunately this was just a bunch of talking in circles, regardless of all this BS youtube crap there are just two concepts that you are ever going to convey to your dog, YES and NO / GOOD and BAD that's it ... that's all you got to work with ... so perhaps you can get to the finish line by taking a whole bunch of left turns saying .. yes...yes ...yes or you can say NO once in a while and just take a step straight ahead.

[@k9-1]

@logun24x7 Yes. All of this! Three hours of contradictions. She would not consider punishment on her jack Russell early in the interview, because she would only be suppressing behavior and would need to always do it, yet when she admits to using a gentle leader later in the interview, which is also punishment, she says she only uses it because she won't need to later on.

[@JaguarDaBandog]

Dog Training K9. You are very very observant.

[@guilherme.k9]

It's been hard to continue listen. Stopped at 50 min of practically just listen to her "acomplishments". Thank you for sum up everything. Love and greetings to the great and patient Ivan, but is a hard podcast to finish hearing.

[@aleksakuzman8671]

Honestly Ivan is a great interviewer. Careful listener, does not interrupt his guests. Very enjoyable interview.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Glad you enjoyed!

[@spiderjoes]

Agreed!!

[@ZZ_Trop]

And he's direct and genuine with his questions

[@rosieburlingame7350]

I have watched all of Ivan’s podcasts. And this one was the most difficult to listen to for me. He was being so patient and open to listening. But only got in five words per her 100 hundred words. I am glad he tried to get an answer out of her because I really wanted to know as well how she would handle situations. Whenever these type of debates happen the other side never says how they do it. They just get too mixed into emotions and talking about themselves. I do applaud her and respect her for coming on, but if Ivan is open to a better way, other side should be also. I wanted to hear how they would handle a dog aggressive or human aggressive shelter dog. Aversive’s save dogs from euthanasia in my opinion -former animal shelter employee

[@IvanBalabanov]

appreciate the feedback

[@Arewal851]

EXACTLY! And how did those dogs get that way? Telling people to use only treats (that is all pet owners hear of the debate, that science says rewards work better) is literally what creates all those dog and human aggressive shelter dogs. The truly sad outcome of this "ethical" debate is more and more dogs without a friend or family! I believe the statistic is 96% (I will find it) of all dogs in shelters in US and Canada have never suffered any kind of corrections or abuse. They all come from "loving" well intention-ed families who just decided they must have gotten a defect and they get rid of it. Current statistic on that is 9 out 10 dogs ends up in a shelter. This HAS TO BE added to the debate on what is ethical!!!!! (sorry for shouting)

[@badele80]

I think how she works with dogs is best for her. She even says in the beginning that she doesn't trust herself with corrections because she is so competitive. She fears her correction could become abuse. She has not explored a part of her consciousness and keeps it controlled or in check by never triggering it. So I think her responses are to continue to support herself. The truth is not everyone would become abusive; like me...I am not interested in competition with my dog I want a bond with her so a correction would always be out of love and guidance.

[@Arewal851]

@@badele80 I like your observation. She seems to think everyone else is abusive like she was, despite how much has changed. She knows how to use all tools and corrections in the most aversive ways possible, and admits she has many trophies to show for it. I was such a superfan of hers until watching all the virtue signalling from her in this podcast. She didn't listen to him at all and seemed quite full of herself. Ivan seems open and honest and I come away wondering if he isn't actually the more gentle of the 2 when it comes to competitive sport dog training. He is actually a reward and especially 'play based' trainer with phenomenal success, yet she just assumes he does what she used to do. This reminded me of the studies that showed how the more religious someone is, the more likely they are to lie. And other studies that showed people who recycle (religiously, lol) were the most likely to compensate by being horrid in other areas of their lives. Apparently the more virtuous one is, the more likely they are to be the exact opposite.

[@dculp9065]

I watched that section over. Susan didn't give Buzz access to dumbbells until she shaped a holding behavior on a PVC and transferred it to an 'out' with a 2 handed cue. Then she added bringing the dumbbell and then the full retrieve. He didn't chew. Ivan asked what a trainer could do if her dog chewed even after she prepared that way. Susan felt she is experienced enough not to let that happen but IF he had, she would laugh, remember Bob Bailey's advice (dogs only know what they have been taught) - and gone back to a level prior to the error with maybe a new cue or step. Ivan hinted that it might be more efficient for the dog and trainer to just give negative feedback. Susan's answer indicated that she got the hint but for her it simply isn't necessary to give any negative feedback. They seem to agree on the potential for fallout from "aversives" and that dogs give each other negative feedback in the course of life. This one issue always derails debate. I would love to see it hashed out some day.

[@Cousin_Burly]

Had dogs my entire life without a hitch and recently rescued one that was so reactive and traumatized I was at my wit's end. Nothing worked and thank the powers that be I found Susan Garrett. She saved my dog's life. Less than a year later he's an incredibly happy, and awe-inspiring well-behaved boy. I only wish I found her for all the other dogs in my life.

[@crotchet1586]

Same. Within a week of watching my ''mind set'' did a 180.

[@sahra4117]

Wow that’s amazing - I recently found Susan’s work and I have been following positive reinforcement trainers for the past decade (like Ian Dunbar and Zak George) and I cant believe I can train my dogs now without chain collar (not prongs ever) and they heel and come and do everything! Thank goodness for the shift in these ways - like Susan said the “newer” way of training that’s pleasant for the dog and the human animal. I found her statement powerful - if there’s a way to do what you want the dog to do without any punishment why would you not want to do that? Also - if a sport requires someone to be punished (something they feel uncomfortable and dislike) then is that sport….necessary or worth it? Thanks for sharing your success with your dogs that’s so wonderful to hear!

[@GoldenWolf248]

Mad respect for people willing to have a polite discussion on both ends. We really need more of this in the dog world. So many great things were said in this podcast and I've learned a lot from both trainers.

[@rico4you]

Ivan and Susan having a great conversation! This is what Ivan is pushing... let's talk ...let's discuss. awesome... Gracias Ivan!

[@IvanBalabanov]

You’re welcome!

[@stevefrank1028]

Let me start by saying I am not a professional dog trainer, just a happy pet owner trying to learn. Good conversation. Susan seems to operate from her beliefs and as she says, from the soul. Reinforcement based training is in alignment with who she is. She has found a way to train very successfully using methods that are aligned with her beliefs. Ivan also seems to train based on his experience and is constantly searching for a better way. His methods seem to be in alignment with his beliefs about dog training and competition. He seems to be a very professional trainer always looking to improve. Their differences seem not to just be based on what works best or just on the science of learning. Both methods work at the highest level and both methods are based on sound learning principals and both are focused on what is good for their dogs. It seems to me that the differences is not in a superior methodology but rather a choice based on beliefs and success. There is room for different methodologies and there is room for many different beliefs and philosophies. I would be a bit skeptical if anyone would claim to have found the Holy Grail of anything. There is no need in my view for one of their methods to over take the other. Each of us can try to be respectful and understanding of different choices and points of view. Ultimately we each choose our best way to have a happy healthy dog. This conversation was helpful to me in understanding that choice. Thank you Ivan and Susan.

[@ninam4554]

One trainer used aversives and evolved. Another trainer used shock before, still uses shock. That's not looking to improve. Just general thought.

[@AnimaTriste]

​@@ninam4554 We simply don't want a way to punishment free training. We breed a dogs for our sport in certain way, that not only can take punishment or corrections, they need it. Because if they would not, they wouldn't be good for this sport, or army and police work. They would shy away from real dangers. So we choose such dogs and then train them this way, to further choose the right breeding prospects. Yes, you can shape your training that encompasses as many things from real encounters with criminals, but then criminals don't behave always as intended. And there shine the dogs, which see this as just another challenge, dogs with drives and strong characters. Just talking about force free training is a way to a ban not only entire section of dog sports, but also to a ban of using dogs in army, police and sometimes in guiding of the blind persons, in short in all situations, that involve the use of dogs in real life unpredictable situations, where one timed and measured correction would ensure that the dog is not ruined forever for intended work.

[@IvanBalabanov]

@@ninam4554 if using a vacuum cleaner upside down doesn’t work for you and you decide to use a broom instead We don’t call this evolving … or do we?🤔

[@_shakawkaw]

I just find it funny that FF people feels so high almighty not even realizing their using force and negative reinforcement so many times. I'm going even further and say many of them don't even know what is a dog with real world problems, the amount of ignorance and wrong definitions is abismal.

[@ninam4554]

@djpsyfreak in life, in general, we only ever know the tip of the iceberg. The force and negative reinforcement differ by mile when put in comparison reinforcement and compulsion training. I do believe that balanced community, once education enlights their path, are far more accomplished in skill level, then a theory based reinforcement trainer. Nando Brown, Denise Fenzi, etc.

[@anna_L_N]

I’m no dog expert but I didn’t appreciate that Susan’s assumption throughout seemed to be that being open minded and wanting to learn new things means that her way is correct. It’s seems the anthesis of the point she’s attempting to make. Regardless, it’s admirable that she’s even having the conversation, considering her audience.

[@LizMA2012]

I almost never comment, but I'm about 2 hours I to this interview, and as much as I am willing to be intrigued by some of Susan's ideas, I find her inability to stop interrupting incredibly frustrating. Hats off to Ivan for being so patient and trying tactfully to bring her back to his real arguments before she just blows by them again and again. Wow.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Appreciate the feedback!

[@mapeandrews3951]

In addition of being very hard for her to answer Ivan's questions directly and succinctly. She really likes to sell herself, it almost feels like she does it unconsciously.

[@lukeryuzaki2328]

@@IvanBalabanov You're being too patient and diplomatic Mr. Balabanov. That person was not discussions in good faith. Clearly tried to change to subject every turn, and doing it in a rude way. Even a bitch (dog) is not that rude. I admire your self control. No wonder you're a great trainers of dog and people (your disciples).

[@felixneher]

The truth is that after having listened to all this, my conclusion is that the balance of the dog is given by the personality of the handler. I picture Susan's dogs jumping, and running like crazy all over the place in the same she talks and expresses. She communicates a lot of nervousness and speed. If I had to choose one of them as a parent to be confident in life I would go for Ivan. He would give me confidence, balance and all the tools to be prepared when I get frustrated in certain situations in life. Just need 1 minute to realize who is a great dog trainer by the way he or she talks and expresses themselves regardless of the techniques and all that stuff... it truly comes from the heart..it is just a God's gift.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Interesting way to look at this You have a good point

[@twoyellowdogs]

Ivan, I love that you had this conversation witih Susan. I hear in your interview, your mindset. I had same mindset when I first found Susan. I am "just" train my own dog(s). BUT, as I listened more to Susan's podcasts, my mindset slowly began to change. I would have considered myself a "balanced" trainer prior. As I watched my own dog CHANGE before my very eyes by following Susan's methods... my mindset changed. Thank you for being open to HAVE THIS LONG conversation with Susan. I enjoyed the both of you being respectful and open to each other's comments. APPLAUSE!!!!!!

[@Arewal851]

It sounds like maybe you only watched the first half........

[@Mutsca9616]

I think she nailed the problem with her training method for the average pet owner when she stated "it's thousands of layers of learning..." We are not professionals who spend hours upon hours a week training our dogs. Some behaviors, like reactivity, need quick and efficient methods or dogs end up in shelters.

[@bubbag8895]

Exactly

[@thankmelater1254]

and we are mostly the VERY dedicated to understanding...the poor overworked normal people with a pet can't even fathom the layering they've unconsciously done.

[@crotchet1586]

@@thankmelater1254 Learn as much about reinforcement as you can

[@logun24x7]

This is the underlying problem, obviously she has a system that works for her but as dog trainers if we can't easily transfer our techniques and knowledge onto the owner or handler of the dog how on earth are you going to set them up on a path for success.

[@kaolinpawsup]

I don't know many average pet owners whose dog needs to hold a dumbbell without chewing. As for everyday life skills, Susan Garrett's Recallers program gives all the layers (in 40 games). No need for any previous training experience, no need to spend hours each day, just being consistent with short training sessions is enough. And there's no quick fix to reactivity. Aversive tools may suppress its expression but it'll start over as soon as you stop using them unless you actually spend time training. If you don't train, you're just managing the issue (which is fine, but one can't claim that aversive tools avoid spending time training).

[@Crystal-and-Dexter]

2+2 conversation: As a balance trainer, I have never been frustrated with a dog, or thought "you better do this, you little bastard." I think this is an argument used often by FF trainers. I've heard many say "people just get that power and get abusive with their dogs." I have never been frustrated with, or heavy handed with a dog. A head halter is about as aversive as it gets. Great discussion and very productive and respectful. I think they are both super talented 😊

[@jneher2992]

Absolutely love this podcast. SUSAN is a so talented. Best ever in agility and obedience. 🇨🇦

[@baylamakarov8701]

Again, a lot of this will come down to definitions and expressions of ideas and those definitions. When Susan speaks about respecting dogs for her that’s the removal of the idea of the dog in error. For me, I show my respect for my dog by giving him guidance when he needs it, making things clear for him with right and wrong, and allowing him to express his innate desire to run and be free. Tools allowed me to be clear in my communication and keep him safe. For me this is out of the utmost respect for the predetorial and fierce creature that he is.

[@kaolinpawsup]

Great conversation. Most people who get involved in the balanced vs force-free debate direct their critics to the "average" dog trainer of the other side. But it makes so much more sense to compare a top balanced trainer to a top force-free trainer, so thank you for making this happen! I should add that one of Susan Garrett's greatest strengths is being able to teach any of her students to train like a pro. I joined her online program Recallers last year when I got a (highly intelligent and very energetic) puppy. He is my first dog ever and I had no previous training experience, yet her program worked wonders with my pup. Any pet owner can achieve great things with their dog by following her methods.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Thank you for watching!

[@estherstieska306]

As a cross’s-over trainer (and someone who has trained in protection sports), my life and my dogs have been transformed by reinforcement based training. I also think that it takes to understand the layers Susan to which refers. Don’t give up, if it seems unbelievable.😊

[@IvanBalabanov]

Only accomplishments can demonstrate that. ( in protection sports)

[@BettinaWenthe]

@@IvanBalabanov well, Uta Bindels comes to mind, doesn‘t she? 😉

[@IvanBalabanov]

@@BettinaWenthe no, not at the time when she won the worlds

[@BettinaWenthe]

@@IvanBalabanov Well, her scores in IGP Obedience are still mostly really high and she is highly respected for her Obedience here in Germany.

[@IvanBalabanov]

@@BettinaWenthe Obedience is similar to Agility , Flyball, etc, if you listen to the podcast carefully, there are very real differences in the emotional state of a dog doing obedience and a dog stopping a bad guy. Having said that Uta is a great trainer and I cannot say anything against what she does.

[@csc-photo]

Two of my absolute favorite trainers together for a long-form, open discussion - AWESOME! 👏🏻

[@IvanBalabanov]

Enjoy!

[@cathylynn57]

I agree! I love the different perspectives and Susan and Ivan are perfect for this discussion. Thanks to both of you for having this conversation and sharing 🐾

[@CamilleGG451]

Same!! My dream interview would be him and Patricia McConnell- both experts and both extremely reasonable, civilized and lovely human beings! 😊💗

[@Arewal851]

But did you watch it all?

[@samwell707]

Jesus. This man is a machine here lately. TWC should be on every dog trainers required listening.

[@IvanBalabanov]

🙏🏼

[@reflexdogtraining1337]

Right??

[@Skyisgreytoday]

People that are watching this just to reaffirm their current bias are missing the point. There is something to learn from both trainers and I think they agree in more areas than they disagree. If we keep bashing the other side it will just shut down dialogue and you’ll end up with more extreme positions on both sides of the debate, which no one wants.

[@MPQueen11]

Susan is my training idol. She took this podcast and ran with it. Kudos to Susan! And thanks Ivan for having her. I don’t agree with your methods but the discussion was spot on

[@Arewal851]

I actually called her a GOAT prior to this podcast. I may again at some point but I need to digest what I just saw happen here. What are his methods? He tried to talk about them but she steered it to sound like only she was using reward based positive reinforcement (what he and almost all dog trainers use 99.9% of the time!). Then he tried to debate levels of what is uncomfortable for a dog, a very good point, but she steered that to make it sound like her aversives (head halter and not giving them anything until they obey) were somehow fun and his fun and super engaged dog play was like smacking a child for not knowing mathematics. I need to regroup.

[@plsstop7242]

"Took the podcasr and ran with it" is NOT a good thing. It's HIS podcast...

[@carolcrosby2177]

This podcast and the one with Nick Benger are so beneficial to the dog community. Having these respectful conversations demonstrate we can all live and work together. Thank you

[@IvanBalabanov]

Hope

[@Skyisgreytoday]

Really interesting podcast, learned a lot and love what Susan said about bringing more joy for the dog into training. I lived in Switzerland when I got my dog and tools were simply not an option so I did have to get really creative in problem-solving my dog's recall issues. It's what got me involved in gundog training and scent work. I spent two years trying lots of recall games, toys, high value food etc and controlling the environment. The problem is I could never find a game he enjoyed more than chasing birds, and I wasn't able to find an environment where I could limit his exposure to birds enough to keep him below threshold (they're everywhere and he is a bird dog after all). I then moved to the UK and worked with a trainer to condition him to an ecollar. Used stim twice and have never needed it again, it's in a drawer collecting dust. His recall is 100% around all distractions. This is partly because of the ecollar and also partly because of the strong foundation we had before in my opinion. Now, could Susan have trained his recall to be 100% using only positive reinforcement - yes, I'm sure she could have. I just think the level of skill needed with some prey driven dogs is higher than what the average pet owner has access to. Ultimately I felt it was kinder for my dog to experience a few seconds of discomfort to give him a life of off lead freedom, but I'm always interested in improving how I train and agree with both Susan and Ivan that the ideal is to train with as few "aversives" as possible.

[@AnimaTriste]

We simply don't want a way to punishment free training. We breed a dogs for our sport in certain way, that not only can take punishment or corrections, they need it. Because if they would not, they wouldn't be good for this sport, or army and police work. They would shy away from real dangers. So we choose such dogs and then train them this way, to further choose the right breeding prospects. Yes, you can shape your training that encompasses as many things from real encounters with criminals, but then criminals don't behave always as intended. And there shine the dogs, which see this as just another challenge, dogs with drives and strong characters. Just talking about force free training is a way to a ban not only entire section of dog sports, but also to a ban of using dogs in army, police and sometimes in guiding of the blind persons, in short in all situations, that involve the use of dogs in real life unpredictable situations, where one timed and measured correction would ensure that the dog is not ruined forever for intended work.

[@dogsenseforu301]

Susan Garrett would say learn the feedback you are being given and what you need to do is find out how to solve the issue.

[@meenanair6029]

thank you ivan for setting this up! you are always a gentleman to your guests. would love to hear you talk more too!

[@Sadows12]

Very good discussion. I think for me, early on it was very telling of Susan's mindset when she flat out stated that one of her main reasons for forgoing the use of punishment is because she likes to win and in the heat of the moment, she is unsure of what she would do in terms of punishment and the use of certain tools just to win. That right there really said enough for me. Every example of punishment given by her is bordering on the extreme end. Slapping children for incorrect answers while teaching math? I think almost anyone would agree that teaching Military Working Dogs detection with the use of an extremely loud bang, so much that as she said, would cause nosebleeds to the handlers, is a horrible method. Of course the dog is going to refuse to work because you just absolutely overwhelmed the dog with a completely unfair punisher during training. I cannot wrap my head around as to why she seems to be hellbent on believing that punishment HAS to be cruel and cause pain or discomfort to the animal. I work state level law enforcement for animal welfare and cruelty as a sworn LEO and the vast majority of calls fielded are not because people are using pinch collars or e-collars, its for legitimate welfare concerns such as being left out for extended periods of time and general neglect and poor health of the animals. I applaud you Ivan for really allowing Susan to talk. I understand that she felt the need to state that she is a strong independent woman, but its quite apparent she came with her boxing gloves around her neck. I really wish this had been more of a discussion on the emotion of the animal and not constantly jumping to barbaric uses of unfair punishment. I really hope she takes you up on the offer to come train with you as I believe you two do similar things and I believe she may be quite surprised that we aren't out here slamming dogs on pinch collars or stimming the dogs at the highest levels simply because the dog doesn't do something. I am glad this discussion could happen and I hope they continue!

[@RaptorsGirl]

I’m not sure what I said to give you the impression my believe is all punishment must be cruel (other than the example of the C4 explosion …but that was an extreme). If you recall I said at the onset, that I was having elite success in 3 dog sports as a balanced trainer. At that time it was a JRT and a very soft BC. I understand the application of both P+ and R- very well and I don’t believe I would have had engaged, happy successfully trained dogs had my punishment being cruel or emotional.

[@laurenervin1404]

This interview was like a breath of fresh air. There's been so much animosity between trainers and owners who follow different styles and philosophies lately, so I truly think this was needed, and it couldn't have been done with a better interviewer and interviewee👌 THANK YOU❤️

[@crotchet1586]

Susan Garrett is the heart, soul and mind of dog training. Her podcast series has helped me soooo much with my rescue dog.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Thanks for listening!

[@crotchet1586]

@@IvanBalabanov Enoyed Ivan, and subbed🤘. Would love to hear you and Zak George have a conversation sometime. Recently watched your episode with Michael Ellis from a year ago that I found really interesting. Learned loads. Cheers

[@IvanBalabanov]

@@crotchet1586 welcome! And thank you!

[@thankmelater1254]

@@crotchet1586 Zak George does a great job of engaging the dog by getting down on its level and upclose and being animated. But his discourse on banning tools is seriously dishonest. He'll never engage in a conversation with Ivan or any other that uses tools..event hough Zak uses tools. The end result of Zak's political "woke" game. logically, is the outlawing of keeping pet dogs. That is already an agenda of his political group. After all, a crate is a prison and a collar and leash is shackle and chain. Those are the politics which ultimately consume their advocates as well - maybe even first.

[@crotchet1586]

@@thankmelater1254 That's total hyperbole and a bit paranoid imho. I didn't delete your post btw Can someone please explain why posts disappear from the comment section but i can read them on my account?

[@EmileeMahar]

I love these open conversations with different styles of training. The dumbbell example was very frustrating. Thank you for not abandoning the question!!

[@nada.chebib]

Susan is a fantastic trainer and teacher - love listening to her

[@mollasima3251]

So much hoping that you guys get together to train. 🙏 It would help bridge the differences in the dog trainer community infinitely. And perhaps clarify some leftover questions. Would be iconic.

[@judethholst9273]

Thank you for having and sharing this great conversation with, Susan. The way you dug into the questions and answers was very helpful in bringing clarity and understanding to the conversation. Thanks again to both of you.

[@melodygreba4017]

Susan is a proven expert in +R but is obviously short in understanding the proper use of adversives. IMO, she can not speak on that half unless she becomes a student from those who use these tools fairly and objectively to help the broad spectrum of dogs, as well as more extreme training venues than agility. Being an expert on all 4 quadrants of operate conditioning would be comprehensive training behavior knowledge. The ironic situation is that all excellent trainers are using Alot of behavior shaping as does Susan but it isn't being realized by the +R community because they are stuck on promoting zero consequences and hammering at punishment without acknowledging the amount of +R being used by top balanced trainers. Ivan you are a phenomenal interviewer, with timing, tone and knowledge. And yes, I do love learning the extent of +R as possible.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Thank you for your comment!

[@jendad275]

Ivan and Cabral HAD sounded much more sensible but Susan gives brilliant support for REINFORCEMENT BASED. My dog and I are both too old to follow 100% purely positive but I am sold on reading dog emotions and drive. Communicating, not punishing, with a verbal NO still appeals to me.

[@civilgangsta7944]

Her support was that she "hallucinated" her fairytale.

[@shadymistkennel]

Agree

[@JimiInTheJungle]

Ivan and Cabral both talk about reading emotions and communicating, they both talk about positive reinforcement. They just know that it doesn't apply to every single situation. Susan gives great support but it's not like that support wasnt already there amongst balanced trainers.

[@sasquatch_1294]

The bottom line is that she seems to find use of punishment unethical, regardless of the method or if the outcome is a well trained and happy dog. Sounds closed-minded and self limiting to me. As she stated, her goal for speaking was not to truly discuss and debate about dog training for self improvement, but to change the mind of even one listener to abandon punishment and try purely positive reinforcement based training. Ivan said he would change his methods if she could prove that purely positive reinforcement based approaches can be equally effective. I'm not convinced she would do the same for the opposing argument.

[@Arewal851]

I am a Susan G follower. She is good and has very unique and creative ways on how to get amazing results with rewards, but yes I agree in this podcast (and often on her podcasts) she sounds very closed-minded. She was attacking Ivan and not even listening to him. She turned a great discussion into a self-centred and biased argument, oblivious of his analogies, even of her own aversive techniques. I am left thinking that its quite possible he uses LESS aversion and MORE positive reinforcement than she does, but she is far too biased to see straight. She is trying to claim the term "reinforcement based" as hers and not his. When in fact, Ivan and almost all of the trainers in the world on both sides primarily use! That is why he asked her "what is punishment based" mean. She didn't hear him......🙉 She teaches to never say "no" to her dogs but where is the measurement of "uncomfortable". You can make a dog uncomfortable by looking at him or with your energy. They are NON-VERBAL beings. Like she herself said in the beginning, about how your beliefs dictate your actions. She was a good example of that for the second half of this podcast.

[@michael7144]

She may not think or use a gentle leader as a aversive tool, but she can't control what pet owners do with their dogs. E collars and prong collars can be used properly or as an abusive tool depending on the owners, the same way

[@LinaVH]

Just finished this episode, great discussion and interview! I think Susan has a great point in where she says that using e-collars and prong collars can make the handler too comfortable sometimes and that it can kill the creative part of dog training because you really don't have to think it through (I'm from Sweden and don't have access to these tools). I think we owe a lot to people like Susan who've done this journey and that actually can prove that her type of training works ( I know it does. My terrier was trained this way and most of my dogs have been trained this in obedience to a certain extent and not 100 procent because of lack of knowledge basically). However, I was quite disapointed when Ivan's extremely humble approach wasn't mirrored by Susan when the talk lead to protection dogs. To me it was very clear that Susan has very little experience with these types of dogs when it comes to the actual bite work ( C ) in both sport and service dogs. Asking Ivan if he knew if the dogs were actually aggressive and then the comparison with agility dogs? I mean, I was lost for words. So, til this day I still miss someone who knows how to train and understand a dog at high level sport or service level without some type of punishment (doesn't have to be e-collar).A lot of people have tried and failed. I sincerely hope she or someone else tries and I also sincerely hope they succeed, I however til this day don't believe they will, based on what you have to deal with when the dog is in full blown protection mode.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Thank yo. Very thoughtful comment

[@Arewal851]

Yeah she definitely got on a "high horse" so to speak. I have only seen Ivan once before (a great one with another great trainer Michael Ellis) and I have seen almost all of Susan's and I have recommended her channel to every dog owner I meet. But I too am very disappointed in that she couldn't mirror that same courtesy. She couldn't answer most of his great questions without trying to steer it to him somehow being cruel to dogs. She was condescending and arrogant towards him, while at the same time she is far more guilty of punishing dogs, not just to have a family pet, but so she could win trophies (in the 80s and 90s). She was mean to Ivan....is she still mean to her dogs? Me too, lost for words! What absurd stories she is using, the trip wire one to prove punishment must be so harsh that the dog must think it is life threatening. Does that mean she yanks the head halter so hard "to turn his head" that the dog believes his life is at risk? WTAF Susan!?? "I am 61 years old......not many people can say they have never failed with a dog....every single dog I have ever owned has competed at that level....has been on a podium". Sounds like she would literally do anything. What if one of her dogs didn't want that pressure filled lifestyle?

[@badele80]

I tried one of her programs and didn't go far at all. Just doesn't feel right. So many ways to train without so many treats. I hate using so many treats. Just have to be creative. Not necessary to use the prong collars either. I think it's finding the balance with very creative ways to teach and correct.

[@robinzclark]

I was appalled that Susan found it appropriate to preach to Ivan that his way was wrong and her way was right. It tells me everything I need to know to hear that Ivan is eager to learn from Susan but Susan has zero interest in learning from Ivan. Her sense of moral superiority completely turns me off from learning about "reinforcement based training". Ivan asked brilliant questions and Susan responded with vague answers about layering reinforcements. I can smell marketing bullshit from a mile away. Her narrative reeks.

[@Arewal851]

@@robinzclark I liked her before seeing her true colours in this interview. No one would ever do so much virtue signalling unless they were guilty of something! I find it maddening and misleading that she is hijacking the term "reinforcement based training" as though it isn't what balanced trainers are doing also. All dog trainers are using reinforcement based and reward based training. It is quite possible Ivan does even more that she does. I have watched at least 150 of her videos and she is using plenty of aversives and punishments. She just changes the words.

[@debraduwe2351]

Yes, train from your soul....live from your soul. Thank you Susan!

[@michelle.k9trainer]

Thank you Susan! Your willingness to come on this podcast will hopefully open the doors to more conversations like this! Thank you Ivan for your continued commitment and dedication to bettering our industry and the lives of dogs throughout the world!

[@samwell707]

2:06:00 she conditions her dog to want a head halter which is a horse tool… i have conditioned my dog to want the e collar for low level stim. I don’t want to outlaw her terrible (imo) tool, but she would want to outlaw mine. What ive gotten so far is there is no such thing as force free as seen in every zak george video with Inertia pulling to the very very end of the leash. And if you want to fill your training to the absolute max with R+ you have to reinvent the wheel. 🤔 Edit: with that being said it was an awesome conversation and did give me plenty to think about

[@cherylmillard2067]

What about Zak's move the goal post justification for his continued use of the long line for Inertia.

[@Arewal851]

@@cherylmillard2067 Don't send more people to watch that nutbag teat salesman.

[@Arewal851]

Great observation! I know that she identifies with force-free but usually it looks like she is just twisting the words and the narrative to create that facade. She constantly talks on her channel about how saying "no" to a dog is very abusive and she knows that people watching her channel would never stoop so low as to say "no"......then says she uses "witwit" instead as an interrupter. But what if the dog heard "nitwit"? Won't he be traumatized for being called stupid? 😆

[@lukeryuzaki2328]

​@@Arewal851 just dishonest on her part to trick naive viewers about her all "positive". Anyone who can train dogs, can even use "good" "great" as interrupter, no reward marker. And withholding reward from dog is... (fill the blank using the term from operant conditioning quadrant. Hint: it's not positive reinforcement). Same trick with head halter is advertised as "gentle leash".

[@Arewal851]

​@@lukeryuzaki2328 🤔"negative punishment". What do I win? Lol

[@scottuwc8790]

Oh my god, my two favourite and biggest influences. Mind blown! Amazing. Susan is amazing can’t wait to watch this when making dinner. ❤❤❤ thank you in advance for this conversation.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Let me know what you think!

[@tracyreifkind3810]

I had the same exact response! Listening now...

[@Arewal851]

@@tracyreifkind3810 Me too until around the halfway mark. If you watched it all please let me know if your excitement waned at all......

[@tracyreifkind3810]

@@Arewal851 I did listen to it all, should actually listen again. That being said, I've listened to almost everything these two have put out since and it's been interesting knowing that they bth know each other now and how and what the other trains/believes. Ivan's recent video about Consent I think was in response to Susan's concept of asking consent for wearing a head halter (from this conversation), and Susan has published some podcast episodes addressing the use of correctives. Even almost being a bit passive aggressive in my opinion. Do I still listen to them both? Yes. Just because I might not agree 100% doesn't negate a lot of good information. I started out drinking all the Susan Garrett koolaid but then it failed me in so many ways I started researching what I believed to be the gaps (I had a lot of success too, I should add that too). I don't own a GS or Mal, so are the methods used to develop sports dogs 100%? Every dog is different no matter breed. I'm just doing the best I can, with the education I have, in the environment in which my dogs and I live in. 🤣🤣🤣

[@Escandella118]

I can't believe it!!! Yeah Yeah Yeah!!! Beloved Susan Garrett. I've not yet listened, had to write this due to excitement!!! I am so looking forward!!!!!!!!!!!!! Awesome, you two! ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@ClockworkRecordsOZ]

Great conversation and I think I got my deepest understanding of force free trainers from this. It was proof they don’t have all the answers, they lie, they don’t actually understand what punishment or negative reinforcement is and they expect every dog owner to become a high level dog trainer. When they do decide to use aversives ( head halter) they label it something else and try to pretend they aren’t actually using punishment or any kind of aversive. If you haven’t caught on yet people, it’s impossible not to use punishment or negative reinforcement - you just don’t know you are.

[@brandyb51]

Watching right now, this is awesome that you two are together having a conversation!

[@IvanBalabanov]

Enjoy!

[@GraphiteGirl]

WONDERFUL conversation! Thank you both for being so open and willing to ask hard questions, while always being thoughtful of the other person. I really appreciated this, and wish more of this was happening in the training community. 🥰

[@Mattybobatty248]

I love listening the the philosophy of dog training and how dogs learn. The problem with the debate about different philosophies is that it’s a discussion between people who have lived and breathed dogs for 30 years. The average mom or dad who adopted a pitbull mix from the shelter and have kids, need a solution starting today that will take hold in a short period of time. And that’s going to take an approach not layered over a lifetime. Unless you ban dog ownership or everyone can only own a labradoodle or Golden retriever.

[@kimberleycollins6078]

I agree, people tend to get dogs that are not suitable for their home/family dynamic or breeds that require a lot of training they don't have time for. So in the end, whose problem is that? The shelter that let them adopt, the people for not researching that type of breed or making time to invest in the training? Yes to both of those I think. But ultimately the dog will pay for both those mistakes.

[@hannahmccoy8336]

Exactly.

[@Luuuuuuuuuuuuke]

R+ trainers make bank on keeping their clients on the hook for months and months.l

[@judet3026]

it's all very well for people who live, and make a living from, dog training every hour of the day week year to moralise about the nuances of handling and training when most of us mere mortals just want a relationship with our dogs that is peaceful and without conflict. Us ordinary suburban dwellers watch the high level training in total awe but not many have either the experience, time or space to devote to perfecting behaviours. I have very simple goals with my dogs and sometimes get discouraged.

[@crotchet1586]

Listen to Susan Garretts podcast. I was just about ready to quit on my rescue dog because of her severe anxiety but Susan's podcast turned my attitude and belief around. The quality of information is outstanding

[@kaolinpawsup]

I never had a dog before. I joined her program and it worked wonders. It does not require spending a long time training or having a large space, only consistency. And it's fun!

[@judet3026]

@@crotchet1586 I agree with exploring other ways of training but I find the evangelizing of the methodology discomforting. The notion that boundary setting (negative reinforcement) causes emotional damage is humans projecting their feelings onto another species. How accurate can that ever be?

[@katiec396]

@@judet3026 I think one of the best things I learned from Susan was how to set boundaries and manage the environment to set my puppy up for success. It's something I think was missing in the R+ community for a long time, the explaining that setting boundaries definitely needs to happen. I don't know that I've ever heard a (well respected) dog trainer say setting boundaries was a bad thing. It seems like the issue is how we set those boundaries not if we set them. I definitely agree the evangelizing of the methodology is becoming insane and cringey, but the methods themselves I find myself generally agreeing with.

[@judet3026]

@@katiec396 the dispute seems to boil down to whether a dog should ever experience correction and what form that correction should take. It appears to me that the all or nothing discourse being proselytized misses the point of communicating with the dog. The problem is that reinforcement only and never correct evangelists can't see, or won't admit, are the corrections they are actually applying - subtle though they may be.

[@kimberleycollins6078]

I can tell Ivan is looking for the actual "training" of these things...ie: when training the "hold" what do you do if the dog rolls/chews the dumbbell DURING the training process, Susan wasn't going to go into all the small steps of the shaping of that. That was beyond the scope of the video. But it would be a case of capturing the moment of stillness and reinforcing that and building up duration of stillness. And there are lots of concept games she uses from earlier training when they are puppies that will make the shaping of "stillness" easier. It goes pretty fast if the dogs are raised to know that its up to them to try different things to figure out what we want. So you don't say "don't do that", you ignore that behavior and when they are still, even for a millisecond, say YES, when you do THAT you will be paid. Same for the running with Spirt, it has to start in smaller spaces, with more layers for the dog, etc. Ivan wants the actual training steps, and that would just take too long. I can tell he was frustrated trying to get her to go into the actual small layers.

[@lsouthern64]

He’s welcome to join her Home School the Dogs, Wag Nation or Recallers programs and learn a few things.

[@CCOREY5]

The small steps is exactly what Ivan wanted from her...when the dog still doesn’t comply. It doesn’t go beyond the scope of the discussion. That IS the discussion. Believe me, Ivan knows marker training better than anyone and the first thing he may use is rewarding that millisecond of stillness. That’s reinforcement training 101. A no brainer. But what does she do when all reward based training doesn’t work because of competing reinforcers? It goes a lot deeper than this discussion, which Ivan was trying to get at with Susan.

[@Sapperbounded]

​@@CCOREY5 if the dog doesn't execute then that means the step was too big. Generally speaking you find somewhere in-between where it failed and where it last was successful and find the next step that works for the learner. The cool thing about this is, yes, at the start it is slow, but it accelerates as they build their foundation to the point where they're learning at a RIDICULOUS speed as they get in the habit of learning.

[@civilgangsta7944]

@@lsouthern64 Ivan is on a much higher level than she can even comprehend.

[@IvanBalabanov]

@@lsouthern64 my dogs come when I call them

[@jalek626]

Thank you Susan Garrett. Thank you Ivan Balabanov. Great video. Would love to see a training video with you two and one of your dogs.

[@CamilleGG451]

A thought about the punishment as a kid thing occurred to me the other day as I'm processing through all of this on training: I too, came from parents who didn't punish me. They always talked to us about why they wanted us to do certain things and why they didn't, and we were always super close and remain super close to this day. So I thought "yeah, well see- they didn't punish me and I didn't do anything stupid or crazy so I didn't need punishments". But it occurred to me: There IS a punishment, and the punishment would be knowing in my mind that I would disappoint, let my parents down if I did something "bad" and no way did I want to do that when they've always been so fair with me. So that would then act as an aversive right? Or the threat of an aversive anyway. Meaning, operant conditioning is always at work SOMEHOW, right?

[@PARoth2011]

Haha..well said.

[@JimiInTheJungle]

In your case, it's negative reinforcement, but did that happen because your parents told you that they'd be upset if you disappointed them? Or was it yourself who didn't want to disappoint your parents because it would make YOU feel bad? Regardless of the reason, it would still be negative reinforcement (avoidance), which is aversive to varying degrees depending on the application. Now, talking about "punishment," a lot of people think they didn't get punished as kids, but they actually did. If your parent has ever said "no TV until you finish your homework," etc, that is negative punishment. Punishment doesn't exclusively involve hitting or yelling.

[@carolcrosby2177]

Good story but I can’t help thinking that a dog probably wouldn’t think about my feelings if it decided to suddenly chase a squirrel. Even when I’d trained it not to. Dogs are more opportunistic than us humans.

[@Arewal851]

I have watched most of Susans videos and she uses punishment all the time, in every sense of the word. Take the game of its yer choice is, you will be left without this wonderful treat I waved in front of your nose if you don't comply. It can be very "abide by the rules or else' and can even very traumatic when another being holds all of the access to your basic needs. In that sense yes, all parents used punishment! They say we don't remember much about our early childhood but I always remember one event as clear as day. I don't remember what I did, all I remember is that my entire family got to have their dinner but my plate of food was placed on top of the refrigerator. It is a memory that haunts me to this day!

[@Arewal851]

@@JimiInTheJungle Good point.

[@anastasiasky5258]

Ms. Garrett, you are amazing. I am in your online recallers course right now. It has been challenging, to the point that I will probably have to take it several times, and I have been learning a lot, but it has been very insightful. Another thing I find challenging is remembering exactly what to do after watching the videos. I would be very interested in attending in-person classes, as I am nearby in Ontario, if you ever consider offering these. Thank you to two of the trainers I most highly respect for sharing your valuable knowledge. My dog listens 99% of the time, but he wants to chase beavers, which is why I have enrolled in the recallers course.

[@Arewal851]

Beavers? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@dinazaphiris1257]

you are a saint... so polite, professional, incredible! Great podcast... very brave of SG to venture on! I hope she comes to you for a week in Florida!! Thank you again for doing what you do and making a difference, again!

[@caninehealing349]

Susan reached out to Ivan originally. I think more of us want to come together than further the divide at this point.

[@jozeepare9616]

Wow Susan! So so proud of you!!! Best podcast ever ! Yes, I'm a member of Susan Garrett and all the games and tricks has grow and solidified my relationship with my dog. She listens to me in the agility ring and turns on a dime when I call her in the field. I never told my dog not to mouth on the frisbee but reinforce to quickly come back to me with tugging moment. So she learned quickly that if she wanted to tug she needed to come back quickly to me. E-collar, I agree with Susan that probable only 1% knows how to use it. I had a friend who uses the e-collar on her dog has a tool to recall her dog, so she zap her dog all the time instead of having a recall, so sad for the dog! Thank you again for this "Aha Moment" Ivan and Susan !

[@ihatepenuts1]

Whenever i think about this topic I go back to this one class in high school. We took all our desks in the classroom and made a maze with them. Four students were told to stay outside while we made the maze. Each of the students outside were blindfolded so they couldn't see where they were going. In some trials, the class only was allowed to clap when the student was going the right direction and give no feedback when they were going the wrong direction. In other trials they were only allowed to give feedback when the student was going the wrong direction but not when they were going the right direction. Finally in other trials the students were allowed to give information on both right and wrong direction. The students getting more feedback, even the negative, went through the maze significantly faster. Every time.

[@IvanBalabanov]

great example

[@OneDay38104]

I do see what you're saying, and I agree. But, humans communicating amongst each other is not the same as popping their arm (even without causing any pain). I do believe in communicating with our dogs, but I don't think that includes punishment just like your example also doesn't include punishment. Communicating is different than deterring, is essentially what I'm saying.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Yes … but what about the “fear” and the other fall outs 🤦🏻‍♂️🤫 Great point

[@IvanBalabanov]

@@OneDay38104 the place for punishment is very specific. If you ignore a warning from police officer for speeding , next time you get a ticket , if that’s not good enough then next time … Can you imagine a world without punishment? Everyone does as they choose to, putting themselves and others in serious danger?

[@OneDay38104]

I guess that was a sarcastic comment. But, I'm not talking from a moral high-ground here, or even using science; I'm just using my personal experience. I'm not a dog trainer. I've only had a few dogs, specifically the one I have now. "Balanced" training using properly timed light corrections and mostly rewards/connection, worsened my dog. I get it, he's an anomaly and it doesn't happen all the time that a dog goes through "proper" (not compulsion based) balanced training and ends up way worse. I get it, and I'm not trying to paint all dogs who were trained using balanced methods as secretly traumatized. But, the risk is still there. And, utilizing punishment is something I'm not a fan of and makes me feel not right, sometimes to the point of thinking about it at night. I get it, that's not common either, and you can think of me as a wimp. I've experienced first hand what physical corrections have done to my dog, even lightly and "properly" timed. I don't expect you to understand or believe me. This is just my own negative experience with balanced training. The original point of my comment in response to the original commenter, was to make a distinction between communication vs deterring. Communication is solely communication. Deterring is communication combined with punishment; it's a two in one, but not just communication. And I think that distinction is important rather than just calling all corrections "communication", because they are really more than that and I like to be clear on terms that are being used. I think euphemisms generally are not that great.@@IvanBalabanov

[@wallsofgab]

Thank you for having this conversation! I admire and respect both of you as people, and as trainers, and it's amazing to listen to both of you speak about something that matters so much to everyone who loves dogs. The one thing I find interesting though is the usage of the word crutch, as if it's a bad thing. Crutches help people walk when they're transitioning from a broken foot to a healed foot. Training wheels on a bike are a transition from going from a tricycle to a bicycle. A puppy who knows a behaviour very well being transitioned to a head halter and then being transitioned to a harness/flat collar is... still a tool for transition. My usage of my e-collar for my dog for her to gain access to freedom isn't a crutch that I can't do better and find a different way, it's a transition piece so that I can find the way that's reinforcing to my dog safely once she's off of the long-line for training. I don't think the act of using a crutch means that it's a replacement for skill or a lack of wanting to push the envelope, but as a half-step to the thing that makes our mutual end-goal for a dog with freedom where we spend most if not all our time saying 'yes' instead of saying 'no'. I think that's a very important distinction to make.

[@sashaleman9270]

I really like Susan Garrett podcast and her values not surprised that she came to speak with you. I think talented and passion is rare. I think people and community would benefit from exchanging ideas. Because every dog and person has special relationships. And you could find something for yourself from a different sport or evwn approaches. I think people should train together and learn. You both make a dog training conversation better.

[@jessicatabss]

Ivan thank you for your content, I appreciate your openness to all aspects of training. I've been learning so much with my Hovawart (interested if you've heard of them). He is a 1.5 year old working guardian breed, not the kind of dog for everyone. I've definitely struggled with a few things. I initially was told to only use positive reinforcement and never aversive. It took me a little while to be open to everything. I tried a halti and my boy struggled so much with it, we had the most stressful walks. A hovawart breeder suggested a choke chain saying it was less aversive than a prong. Then my trainer suggested we try a prong, since my boy had been taking me down to the ground. The prong has given us the most success. I plan to have him move to a martingale again soon. It would be great if people had your same open mindset, that's why these discussions are so very important. Ultimately, I can take away great ideas from both trainers here, thank you!

[@IvanBalabanov]

Thank you for sharing your experience

[@LauraHopkinsCDL]

My Dad who was ex military, never raised his voice or hand either but he would ignore us totally as a punishment. It was very damaging . I would much rather get the issue out in the open and over with. I still have a working vhs player. I never use punishment in Agility as no need but I don't think every dog is the same. Not one size fits all, nor do I like to limit myself to any particular method of training. Conditioning to an E Collar is the same principle as conditioning a head collar. I hate head collars. Totally disagree about agility dogs needing to be as feral as possible. Ivan I admire how you handled this lady as her mind is closed to anything other than her methods. Not an easy lady to deal with. Thank you.

[@kathleendee3356]

Thank goodness I am a Susan Garrett student ( 5+ years). I have had great success in various dog sports with 3 different dogs, and they are all terrific family dogs from her programs !! Her Recallers and her Agility Foundations are the basis for ANY sport. Recallers isn't just a program, it's a way of life with our dogs and ourselves. ❤

[@jonathanfuller6055]

It would be nice still if the conversation could really be picked apart without moving onto another story or analogy. Where Susan suggests that Ivan has “moved the goalposts” in relation to working dogs in the military, Ivan’s question about the emotional differences in detection and protection disciplines is ultimately avoided. I have a lot of respect for Susan and she is undoubtedly an incredibly successful and skilful trainer in her sport, but it would certainly be nice to hear more in relation to the topic of working dogs in protection work and/or sport. In parts, this conversation reminded very much of interviews with politicians.

[@dp5965]

Great podcast Ivan! I already admired and followed both of these trainers and LOVE to see them conversing like this! Brilliance is brilliance regardless of which side of the argument you are on. There is danger in following some of the less knowledgeable who only want the clicks (The force-free like Zak.G, Vic.S and the other side filled with trainers who primarily sell and promote aversive tools as shorcuts!). Dog owners who do force-free in a lazy way (permissive) because they heard it is politically correct (they saw it on the SPCA and PITA websites) are actually causing tragic outcomes far worse than a mild correction. They are in fact the reason for the majority of the "rescues" who were relinquished (and most are less than one year of age!). This is why I am against the organizations and the law makers who simply tout "reward based" as "proven". It leads to the most unkind outcome there is.

[@janetvelazquez9563]

Love this video! As a person who has had Northern breeds, I have found a need for both sides at varied times. Will continue to listen to both. As a therapist, I really appreciated the mutual respect and the attentive listening without interrupting.

[@VOSHOL06]

I'm a former student from Susan Garret and a small town dogtrainer and behaviorist in France. Hats off to Ivan and Susan for having an open minded discussion. May we all take an example from that.

[@dogrrl1]

Susan you rock!

[@ricardocarneiro7797]

I would say Ivan is a reinforcement based trainer too, But why is it 100% wrong to say no, in fact if you put a head halter on a dog and "giggle" it to look at you that is saying no to a dog! Dont look that way, look this way. Its helping the dog, so why not teach a dog in 1 week by saying no instead of 6 months? I respect all that Susan has acomplished but I feel exhausted just thinking how long it would take to train my dog that way, I dont have 3000 hours to train my puppy to be a good adult dog, I have 300, some people have less than that so efficiency is important. Also no one is the world has been raised with positive only, exams are extremely stressful but students grow from it, giving presentations is stressfull but students grow from it.... no parent or any society arrangement in existence works without negative reinforcement, so why are they trying to force it to work and defy reality? Of course reinforcement should be the base of everyones training, but why try to ban ALL corrections? I have seen so many aloof dogs in agility clubs because they have no idea what the handler wants its so frustrating! Correcting is not punishing its helping a creature that doesnt speak english.

[@esthertrueblood1925]

Two trainers I’ve been following for 8-10 years. Two world champs at what they do, love this!

[@IvanBalabanov]

Thanks for listening!

[@kellyhayes]

Me too! love them both 💕😍

[@CCOREY5]

A few thoughts after listening to the whole podcast: Do all so called “force free” trainers think balanced trainers teach everything with some kind of punishment? If yes, that’s just ridiculous. With some dogs, even many dogs...the teaching phase is 100% positive reinforcement...then for compliance, with other dogs, sometimes added negative reinforcement is necessary...and sometime with competing reinforcers, positive punishment may have to be used to quickly cut to the chase...sometime to save the dogs life. But, here is the point: positive punishment and negative reinforcement are extremely variable...on a sliding scale of aversiveness, dog dependent, and one size does not fit all. It can start, for example, with just mild spacial pressure, leash pressure...all the way up to a high stim ecollar like for for rattle snake avoidance training. We MUST talk details, not generalities. Do force free trainers think balanced trainers don’t know about positively reinforcing behaviors? So ridiculous. No one here is arguing that positive reinforcement isn’t the best TEACHING method. No one. Do force free trainers really think they “discovered” reinforcing behaviors and the rest of us live in caves? Do they think they have to teach us positive reinforcement, which most of us have also been doing for the last 25 yrs or so? And then.... How can you talk in depth about this topic, if, by her own admission, Susan doesn’t even know how to condition an ecollar? How can you talk in depth if Susan couldn’t understand WHY Ivan kept asking her HOW she would teach a dog not to constantly chew the dumbbell? Why could she not give specific examples...if this...then that. Does she think we come with an ecollar right away to teach a behavior? No we don’t. Believe me, Ivan knows every single training method, there is nothing he doesn’t also know. He can, and surely does at times also sit in a dark room to meditate about the problem of how to get that particular dog to stop chewing the dumbbell with positive reinforcement. And he would certainly come up with the same “breaking it down to smaller components” or create an incompatible behavior to chewing...with positive reinforcement, just like Susan. But maybe, for some particular dogs there is a faster way. A more black and white way to communicate with a negative reinforcer or light reminder “hey don’t do that” punisher. Often once, and done. It’s just simply not true that effective well-timed punishment always creates fall out and is just “suppression”. If done correctly, in tandem with positive reinforcement, it does NOT create fall out issues. Lastly, we can’t forget the difference between agility training, per dog training, and protection work. Clicker training during real forward defense drive work? The answer to how you get a Special Ops K9 to divert from unknowingly attacking the hostage, back to the bad guy, in mid run wasn’t answered. An ecollar truly is the only tactile communicator we have over long distances...and it’s a damn good tool. Yes, always with the caveat that it is used correctly. But don’t always throw the baby out with the bath water.

[@CCOREY5]

And...I DO follow Susan Garret. I do subscribe to her methods. I do use them. She is amazing. For TEACHING. But...I think she also needs to understand more of what Ivan is saying about compliance. And before attempting this discussion...bone up on real and modern, ecollars use...not from a Leerburg posting that sounds like it might be 15-20 years old.

[@AnimaTriste]

We simply don't want a way to punishment free training. We breed a dogs for our sport in certain way, that not only can take punishment or corrections, they need it. Because if they would not, they wouldn't be good for this sport, or army and police work. They would shy away from real dangers. So we choose such dogs and then train them this way, to further choose the right breeding prospects. Yes, you can shape your training that encompasses as many things from real encounters with criminals, but then criminals don't behave always as intended. And there shine the dogs, which see this as just another challenge, dogs with drives and strong characters. Just talking about force free training is a way to a ban not only entire section of dog sports, but also to a ban of using dogs in army, police and sometimes in guiding of the blind persons, in short in all situations, that involve the use of dogs in real life unpredictable situations, where one timed and measured correction would ensure that the dog is not ruined forever for intended work.

[@thecawckiestking]

I think the simple and most honest answer to your question is "Yes, 'force-free' pushers think balanced trainers do everything with punishment and don't know how positive reinforcement works much less actually use it in their training". Which is purely asinine and just speaks to their narcissism.

[@CCOREY5]

You’re right. More than a few have a holier than thou attitude that borders on being similar to religious fanaticism. They just refuse to learn, specifically about modern ecollar use, and therefor don’t have a clue and can’t discuss on an even plane. While most balanced trainer can talk all day about positive reinforcement.

[@dinazaphiris1257]

The head halti works on torque and a pivot point. Does she realize that? It causes discomfort, and/or pain. Even if she conditioned the dog to like the halti, hands down that is causing more pain than a prong used correctly (especially when it’s needed- dog seems another dog… ouch!). Of course- we can also teach dogs to love the prong. The prong does not have to cause pain. Minor discomfort to stop pulling but does much less harm than a lunging dog in a halti. She says, “because it turns their head” … this causes subluxations in the dogs neck. She seems to be completely closed off to what Ivan is saying. I honestly used to love Susan. I don’t know what or when this all happened but I can hardly listen to her. Ivan, how are you so patient?????? Thank you for setting an amazing example for future kindness towards one another.

[@Dogdaddy5560]

Literally every guide dog association uses halties to aid navigation in crowded areas with handlers that have mobility issues. When fitted correctly and used with an experienced handler, there is no stress or discomfort for the dog. Never use leash pops or a retractable leash with a head halter.

[@hvkuu1]

Thank you Ivan for asking all the good questions. Much respect to you and Susan Garrett.

[@kevbot4331]

One of the key takeaways “I have to be brilliant at what reinforces my dog because I only want to use reinforcement in my training.” Most people are not good, or even close to being a brilliant dog trainer. I think this is an issue. Great conversation though. There are definitely aspects of her training philosophy that make sense, but it seems there are specific aspects that seem like they just “magically happen.”

[@DogsThat]

Is there any one aspect, in particular, you are more curious about?

[@kevbot4331]

@@DogsThat I’m not a dog trainer. I’m a regular person trying to get better. If we go back to the dumbbell example, it seems like Susan took the dumbbell away for a month, did some other positive layering, and then came back to the dumbbell and now the dog didn’t chew. There’s two issues I have: 1) what was done to make the issue go away? It seems like it just fixed itself. 2) how many hours a day went into fixing this issue? An every day person working a 9-5 can’t commit hours to this kind of training. If the issue is something more serious, like chasing cars, that’s a whole month that something harmful can happen to the dog. So without going into all kinds of scenarios, that’s what I had a hard time with as an average listener

[@DogsThat]

@@kevbot4331 Great, thanks for the further explanation (this is Susan btw). First of all this was a completely hypothetical situation as I told Ivan, that dog (Buzzy) NEVER chewed a dumbbell, unless I cued him that a game was about to happen by reaching for the dumbbell with one hand. Otherwise, perfect retrieves, never chewing. Hundreds of throws during his lifetime. That is the power of the training I'm suggesting. As a matter of fact, it worked so well that he also stopped mouthing his other toys when he retrieved them! So I gave a hypothetical answer IF the dog had mouthed the dumbbell I would have taken a month away but I also would have: 1. Been floored. 2. Realized that his behaviour (mouthing) was feedback to me on the layers of learning I gave him. 3. Taking that feedback on board I would have believed him when he said "I want to chew on my dumbbell when I retrieve it" so I would have removed it and gone back to other layers to help fill in the holes of his understanding. Those other layers would be things like: holding/retrieving household items like a spoon, a banana, or a hotdog. Anything to help him to understand holding doesn't involve chewing. How long would that training take? I am a SUPER busy person, my training most often gets woven into the fabric of my day. So a 90-second training game here a 2-minute training session there. Having young dogs now (a 2 year old and a 9 month old) I will do 45-60 minute sessions with 3 or 4 of my dogs at one time. But if training only one dog my sessions are rarely longer than 10-15 minutes (and that includes frequent breaks). Training this way isn't about pattern training. It is about playing games with my dog where their choices direct our progress. The dogs love games as do I. Learning should be engaging and FUN. The "layers of learning" I spoke about are just different games. You can see a lot of them over on my youtube channel. Different games for different skills. Different games for different ages and capabilities. We have had over 100,000 students in our online classrooms over the years. My guess is 40% of them came to us looking for a foundation for dog sports (honestly many dog agility but just about every other dog sport you can think of) however the vast majority come to us as pet owners frustrated or about to give up on their dog or puppy because of a challenge that was over facing them. Most of them describe their lives as you did.. Busy people who don't have an hour a day to set aside to formally train but can see incredible results playing games for 3-5 minutes a day. Let me know if that helps you.

[@kevbot4331]

@@DogsThat this does help! I don’t want to speak for everyone, but a lot of the frustration for me arises when there’s a clip of the issue, a clip once the issue is seemingly “solved” and the middle is left to the imagination. And then I make the mistakes and the dog suffers. At the end of the day, as Ivan said, I just want the best way. I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to respond.

[@RaptorsGirl]

Of course. Even though it was a 3 hour podcast, that isn’t near enough time to even scratch the surface of how training this way becomes a way of life, much like being a good parent. You don’t have 60 minute training sessions with your child, you create engagement, expectations and interactions that guides their education throughout the day.

[@Jenily111]

Ah Susan is great! This podcast is going to be awesome! Her programs have worked wonders for myself and my dogs ❤

[@stephaniemarks7106]

Super interesting discussion, I am only about halfway through so far. I would be very curious to see how she might go about training a stopped attack in french ring using reinforcement, and if there are any high level malinois handlers doing protection sports who successfully utilize a high reinforcement/minimal punishment approach. Always open to learning new things.

[@lisablythin263]

What an amazing conversation. Thank you so much both, and particularly Susan for helping me to better articulate why I do what I do. Can't wait to see these 2 train together ❤

[@littleninjai222]

Phenomenal, highly enlightening podcast between two well educated, experienced and successful dog trainers. How will we get to a world of no punishment in dogs if 4 quadrants are the foundation of balanced training?

[@IvanBalabanov]

The question will remain for a while

[@katrinmeier7447]

Thanks so much for this inspiring interview. Talk, teach, convince or disagree on a respectful way ... this is what dog community needs. Love your work! Please keep on!

[@robannmateja5000]

I really loved this interview and want to thank you so much for posting it. I am somewhat familiar with Susan Garrett. I have read her books and have attended a weekend agility seminar that she hosted, so I've worked with her in person. There is no doubt that she is incredibly talented. I believe you are also extremely talented in your own right. I am kind of a different sort in that I've been down the road (and I was committed!) to the "positive only" approach. Now, I am more of a balanced trainer. I don't really like that term, but I guess it makes sense in that I use all 4 quadrants of "learning theory", as well as non-operational conditioning approaches such as classical conditioning. Honestly, throughout my long "tenure" as a hobby trainer, I believe that you, Ivan, are perhaps the most talented trainer that I've ever listened to. I am not an elite trainer, but I have trained in a multitude of sports, from competitive obedience and agility, competitive agility, competitive retriever field trials, and even "earth dog" competitions. But most recently, in fact, for the past ten years, I've done exclusively competitive and practical stock dog work. I have been living on a ranch for the past ten years or so, and now I only work my dogs in that venue. You have highly trained and well bred Malinois. I have very well bred working (that is, stock dog work) border collies. I honestly do not think you can train a stock dog to a high level using only positive techniques. But I will go a step further... I don't think it's in the best interest of the dog to even attempt it. There is a big difference in training a dog to hold a nylon "dowel" and shape the dog not to chew on it, compared to teaching, or should I say guiding, a well bred stock dog when working stock. Stock are dynamic, and there is a herd mentality, as well as the mentality and energy of each individual animal. If the dog comes in too tight, for example, it is FAR more effective to simply give a verbal "growl", if you will... right then and there in the moment, to communicate the INSTANT the problem happens than it is to try to do something like stop the activity and do a "time out", or NRM, or whatever the alternative might be. I don't think dogs learn anything from "timeouts" and an neutral NRM is unlikely to break through the adrenaline. You have to consider the safety and well being of not only the dog, but the stock (and the human). You don't want a group of 20 angry rams who weigh substantially more than you do coming at you. It's even more dangerous with cattle. A well timed verbal "correction" works wonders. And believe me, I did try some other approaches. Now granted, my dogs are very well bred and they rarely need more than a bit of a growl when things are about to go south. And I am a pretty positive trainer most of the time. But anyway, I really want to thank you. Although I will probably never do the sports that you do, I find your training and your videos thought provoking, professional, and basically amazing. So thank you!

[@jailenbailey]

To be completely honest, there is a very good point you made. Specifically, when you said, "my dogs are very well bred". Good genetics in the hands of fair trainers, be it R only or Balanced. But that doesn't seem to be quite as common as tool controversy.

[@destinyk9s]

Hats off to Ivan for holding it together towards the end of this 🫡

[@hollissensenig1775]

A Great Discussion! Proves trainers can disagree without being disagreeable!

[@ambitionroad]

I'm in Recallers and I love Ivan!! So pumped x

[@batesnpenny2020]

Loved listening to this conversation! Thank you both! The respect both have for the other as phenomenal trainer - which they both are, was so evident even as they disagreed, such a refreshing change. My take-away is that those at the top of their game in the dog training world have far more in common than they do differences. All of us learning from them would do well to focus in on what the Ivans and Susans of the dog training world are doing the same and try to emulate that, and I think we'll find that when we do that, the whole "tools" conversations becomes almost irrelevant.

[@emmahalkyard1179]

Great conversation, thank you. Plenty of food for thought from both sides. Great to see a civil and genuine discussion even though you disagree instead of bashing. There is so much to agree on! I really liked Susan's point of lack of tools leading to learning new and better ways although this is probably more relevant and realistic for trainers rather than the average owner. And I loved that both are ready to improve an learn. Awesome.

[@gregorysilas6329]

It’s not a knock against Susan, but one of the things that stands out here to me is clarity. There is a lot more clarity from Ivan and his methodology, his approach. There’s an understanding. It’s similar to how I troubleshoot problems at work. It’s finding an answer through understanding and being able to replicate it, to apply it to different scenarios vs stumbling upon it.

[@civilgangsta7944]

Be honest, she's a walking contradiction.

[@gregorysilas6329]

@@civilgangsta7944 🙂Her opinions on head halters vs prongs and e collars don’t add up. There were other things but I don’t want to scare them.

[@lisastacy3003]

I believe he was trying to get the same clarity from Susan but was having trouble with getting a clear direct answer to that specific question especially the question "well what to do when they do mess up

[@lisastacy3003]

I absolutely love both of these trainers. I am a balanced trainer who relies mostly on positive reinforcement. Never harshness!!!!!

[@lisastacy3003]

Susan really does have some methods that work and some games you can play with your dog that really really work. I tried to train my dogs in the form of a game we're just playing together. We're just having a good time but I still expect obedience out of my dogs but to them that's just normal stuff. That's just normal boundaries. They learn from the day they got here. I tried my best not to let them find out that a lot of things were fun in the first place and playing with toys and myself is fun

[@kristinschofield5523]

Fantastic conversation. So elated that different schools of thought are willing to have these super intelligent talks. Great listen.

[@joyfulk9services]

This is absolutely fantastic.......way to go Ivan. Seriously. This is a fantastic guest and fantastic discussion.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Glad you liked it!

[@joyfulk9services]

@Ivan Balabanov finally someone just as philosophical as you are, on your wave length... Some guests (although ALL are amazing) are difficult to listen to, due to the energy/opposing views. Larry Krohn was a tough one. Susana podcast is so in depth. Talking to you she picked right up on your energy, listened and observed accordingly. What the two of you could do together would be incredible... Please. If you DO go shadow her, document it and share. The amount of layers she puts into her style of training, if added to your existing skills would be evolutionary in dog training. Stay in touch with her... The way she uses the head harness is actually unlike most, she is definitely one to learn from! But,I think she also has the most amount of patience and persistence I've ever seen-and most average owners just do not have that quality or time! Thanks again...this flows so nicely, and you challenge your guests BIG TIME. I'll be watching this on repeat.

[@joaomarques8260]

2:47. Thank you so much for finishing on a high. I waited patiently to see if you were going to show your brilliance and lead the conversation there. Few will understand. The brain does not see what the brain does not know.

[@FWAadventures]

I like Susan and she's obviously very excellent in agility. I don't agree with her ban statement.

[@beckyapp5629]

I am a long time fan of Susan and just recently started following Ivan (I learned about Ivan through Erica Boling's Northeast K9 Academy). This is my 1st TWC podcast. WOW, what a great conversation. Both of these top trainers have inspired me once again to evolve my training methods! THANK YOU SO MUCH for sharing this :)

[@IvanBalabanov]

Welcome to TWC podcast!

[@fannyw7203]

I was planning on rewatching the last episode when this wonder shows up. Amazing! So much going on! Thank you for all this work!

[@Kristina-sq5sm]

Great video. It would be interesting to interview an ABA therapist comparing how they utilize techniques with humans vs. dogs. How it has evolved. I am a LCSW and my experience ABA is used amongst many mental health conditions but a large population is people with intellectual disabilities it would be a very interesting conversation. You ask great questions and utilize effective communication to try and obtain clear answers. Thank you

[@patricktilford8454]

Respect to both of you. Much love.

[@dp5965]

When Ivan asked Susan what she thought of the term "punishment trainer" I think she didn't understand why Ivan was asking but she gave a great answer. I think he brought it up because the "force-free/purely positive" side using that phrase for every trainer that isn't 100% on their side. I am glad she said that she didn't think any trainer is doing that in this day and age. Then why do they use that term constantly to describe their adversaries?

[@DogTrainingBulledandSon]

At 44 minutes, most balanced trainers will have resorted to something negative to stop the perceived problem. Susan set about using a different mindset creating value for the dog in better version of the game. Better for the points👍 Generally the dog could have much more fun doing the prior behaviour. The main reason Susan has won those trophies is doing it the positive way you’re much less likely to kill the natural drive in the dog. Always a risk with aversive training.

[@paulat5409]

Love this! Thanks so much Ivan for trying to bring us altogether. I am someone who if I was labelled, which I don't label myself, would be force free. I love your underlying philosophy for training and there is actually so much overlap. I've done some of your courses and listen to your content alot. I hope you and Susan get together to train! I would love to see it.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Thank you for your comment. I’m happy you’re enjoying everything!

[@kamalFernandez123]

Great conversation! And kudos to you both….

[@IvanBalabanov]

Thanks for listening!

[@kaitlyncallahan4890]

Having these two amazing trainers having this discussion, just proves both methods done well, work. So I don't get why we always need to be thinking about "having a world where punishment is just part of history books" if the dogs are happy, WHY DOES IT MATTER?

[@reflexdogtraining1337]

​@Ivan Balabanov your patience and listening capabilities are inspiring. This trainer had so much energy. almost too much... but you met her at her level without being drawn into that energy... it's like you were with a client. You found her language after 30 minutes and were able to communicate. ;) professional AF, man!

[@annylaurie422]

Susan has a high level energy which shows in her dogs performance

[@jennymorales9616]

Just love this conversation! Thank you god!

[@logun24x7]

This is what makes it hard for me to respect FF / R+ / Reward only trainers that speak out against balanced trainers and tools, they can admit with good training they couldn't tell the difference in the dog and have no desire to educate themselves on the tools they speak out against. Susan admits for at least one of her dogs a e-collar would have been kinder and gave the dog more freedom. The answer isn't to ban e-collars its to set regulations on manufacturers, and education. Your not going to save dogs from bad dog trainers that use tools improperly

[@julibottjen5198]

One thing I wish, (so far only halfway through however), is to hear what Susan's take is on the training of actual police dogs - who, so far as I know, always wear an e-collar when on the job. If someone wants to train their dog to 'play games' like agility/obedience -- yes why use correction/punishment? It's a game. But when it comes to work - to real life working dogs who may be put into some seriously dangerous situations......hmmmmm

[@julibottjen5198]

ah - the question just came up....

[@positivehotdogs]

@@GeniusK9LIFE The K9 handlers I know in the UK still use these tools behind closed doors.

[@positivehotdogs]

@@GeniusK9LIFE Try getting a REAL dog and not a watered down sport dog that's sleeve happy : )

[@AffyisAffy]

I agree with pure positive, however my living situation (high energy dog in a small apartment) pretty much prevented me from only using positive training. Inside is a 0 and outside is a 10. Sometimes there are dogs or strange people right outside the door. I think that is neglected when communicating this idea of force free. I almost was going to do Susan Garret's program until I realized she basically lives on the farm, with skinner boxes on the property. Buffer zones for slightly increasing the difficulty are necessary and I have none at the moment. Even just going to the park, you have to compete with a lot of new things that you may not be as interesting as.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Good points. Thanks for sharing

[@RachelWeaver1990]

Posted this on FB too but wanted to drop the same comment here: This was painful to listen to. I've enjoyed much of Susan's content and have utilized many of the concepts she teaches for my own clients. But it really sounded like she came in to this so defensive and with zero knowledge about you Ivan and the way you operate. The inability to give a straight answer to a very straight forward question was equally frustrating, I don't know if she truly didn't understand or was worried about being trapped with her answer...but either way super frustrating. She interrupted you so many times, I wanted to scream. Additionally, it seemed like she thought she had some massive victory that you said if you could do everything you do +R, you would....and I've been hearing you say that since the the first episode of your podcast practically. I wish the conversation could have gone deeper about the emotions of different sports like you started to touch on, and I also wish ya'll could have touched on behavior issues in dogs outside of a sports context, especially with dogs who have a seriously strong reinforcement history for that particular behavior. Not complaining about the free content, I'm glad I got to listen to this and it was still enjoyable to listen to, but it would have been interesting to hear any of Susan's answers in regards to the topic of Behavior Modification with more difficult/dangerous behaviors. Thanks as always for putting out good content and treating trainers from all walks with professionalism and respect.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Thank you. I agree with your take away 100%

[@OldDogNewTricksAustralia]

Rachel, Susan Garrett has hundreds of hours of free content available and multiple forums in which you can ask questions and get free support. Don't dismiss her on the basis of a three hour chat.