TRAVATO NATIONAL PARK Edition VS STANDARD. Which is better? COST OF MODS to Winnebago Class B RV

Published 13-Sep-20
Tough decision, spend more gussied up version of the best selling Class B RV, the Winnebago Travato Nation Park Foundation Edition or simply get the Standard version of the Volta Pure3 lithium-ion equipped Travato.
This video walks you through the extra features of the National Park edition, my opinion on them, and then compare turning a Standard version Travato to meet or exceed those of the fancier version.
After watching this video, which version of Travato would you purchase?
⏰ VIDEO TIME POINTS ⏰
01:28 - What is a National Park Foundation Edition (NPFe)Winnebago Travato
02:52 - Floor plans of the Travato
05:31 - Distinctive look of NPFe
06:27 - Wheels & tries of NPFe
07:01 - Summo Springs added to NPFe
07:33 - External portable solar panel comes with NPFe
08:17 - Subtle interior changes to NPFe
09:46 - More than 30% Li-ion from Volta Pure3 system
11:20 - Scott’s thoughts on those changes compared to a Standard version
17:35 - Buy or not to buy NPFe, my decision
18:25 - $11,000 of modifications (mods) made by me to equal, or surpass, the NPFe Travato
24:15 - Visit www.GoSmallLiveLarge.com for upcoming events, RV recommendations, and Get RV Gear
25:19 - LUKE walks at the duck pond
🎬 VIDEOS REFERENCED 🎬
Travato mods by The Ginger Walkabout, • VAN TOUR SOLO FEMALE R...
Wheel & tire mods, • REVEL & NATIONAL PARK ...
Sumo Springs installed, • TRAVATO Class B RV I...
Laundry day in RV, • LAUNDRY DAY: Pro Tips ...
Full exterior color change, • NEW VAN? Complete Exte...
Brush guard added, • TRAVATO MOD: BRUSH GUA...
RV with cat, • RV with CAT in WINNEBA...
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🚐 ABOUT 🚐
My name is Scott. I live in and work a corporate job full-time from my 2019 Winnebago Travato GL, a 21’ Class B RV camper van with my cat, Luke. I share stories of PEOPLE, PLACES, and the RV LIFESTYLE & VANLIFE in my Travato as we roam around North America. My goal is to inspire others to more quickly achieve their travel dreams!
I wish you to… LIVE HAPPY 😃 LIVE FREE 🇺🇸 LIVE RV 🚐

[@30AndAWakeUp]

Im a little biased...but definitely the National Park Edition! ha!!! External solar panel is advertised at 140 but it's actually only 90 watts. Not a big fan of it because it's huge. You can get 100 watt foldable panel that takes up waaaay less space.

[@steventoney4018]

I expect a little thinking and design and you could build a deck on top and still have the solar panels there -- that flip up off the deck -- and lay down out of the way or act like deck rails..

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Kevin’s answer y’all. 30 And a Wake Up... thanks for chiming in sir!

[@shekharmoona544]

LOL 🤣🤣

[@steventoney4018]

ask Kevin about his bathroom.......................;-)

[@lisaklepp5167]

I love the Volta system..great for climate control..with the engine recharging the batteries, do you really need the solar panel on the roof? Without it, there would be oodles of roof storage!

[@marymcquaid7291]

I would go for the 59G, especially if I could get a 2018 model. Love the layout and the seats in the great room.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thank you for watching

[@thegingerwalkabout1550]

As soon as I saw the title of this I was like, "oh boy, the internet is going to have something to say about this!" Good job. Lots of people have trouble deciding between Travato packages and this is helpful. Thanks for the shout out!!! See you soon.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Yes, Miss Ginger!! I was super worried about creating a “fire storm” but it has been on my mind and asked by many viewers so I had to take a risk and press ahead. Welcome on the shout out. Can’t wait for our paths to cross! Luke says “hi” to Whiskey.

[@LO-kd2rz]

ty 4 the iinfo

[@gosmall.livelarge]

of course, LO

[@Dragonflies1928]

Fist off your stickers are awesome. Much better looking than nat park...I would go with nat park because of the plumbing system being relocated to the interior . Less chance to freeze and the potential resale value for being a so called special edition . Thanks

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thx Rod !

[@shekharmoona544]

Waiting for "30 and a wake Up's" counter LOL. Thank you for the wonderful content.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Coming soon, I am sure!

[@horizon42q]

Excellent fair comparison, Thanks You & Kevin are my favorite Class B KZbinrs.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Wow !! Thanks for that. Kevin is great.

[@rvwall-e]

I love my NPE. As an older person, in an area where I cannot seem to find any decent rv dealers, it gave me power (primary desire), and had upgrades I wanted but did not feel I had access to upgrade to. With covid and lack of travel safety for my age group, imo, I have been doing interior mods to my KL, but have not been camping very often so my needs are still not clear. I do agree about the Solar panel......it is beautiful but heavy and takes up space. My present leaning is to leave it at home with the bolsters. My main concern is the bike rack. I had read that it held 120 lbs, which I needed. I was chagrined to find that it only holds a maximum of 100 lbs. This is fine if I travel with my one e-bike, not if I need two. The mods to address this need can vary from 1,000 plus for a swing away rack to near 5,000 if the decision is to pull a lockable MiniGo trailer. At this stage, that is the primary decision I will have to make, as a trailer will change everything. Then again, there are expensive e-bikes that weigh less than 50 lbs......lol. You made the right moves for you and at a younger age I would go the same route. The upgrades to NPE are overpriced, but the extra power and the desire not to have to rely on others for mods, made it the right choice for me.

[@steventoney4018]

I hope to be in a Travato GL soon and have a RADRunner Plus e-bike coming -- it weighs in at 70ish pounds.. I 'm going the swing away rack route.. the best I have seen is the RockyMounts Swingaway.. but it is not really available at the moment -- not sure if it will be in the future.. so I'm trying a hybrid setup.. I ordered a Kuat 2.0 pivot base and the a Hollywood ebike hitch mount rack - the base goes in hitch on my Yukon and future Travato and then the bike rack or other hitch mount things.. as you note -- these hitch mount setup are 800-1000 dollars. but for fat tire ebike they can handle the weight and you are not lifting the bikes that high

[@rvwall-e]

Steven Toney Good luck to you, sir. I hope it all works out as you suspect. At least with your other vehicles you will some use out of it, and you will save by not ordering one from the dealer!

[@steventoney4018]

I think I will still order the Winnebago bike rack and do surgery on it for some other lighting the rear and storage functions -- I have seen a mod where a Travato owner converted it to a spare tire rack...

[@rvwall-e]

Steven Toney Van TrekkingLifestyle added a locking diamond plate cargo box to the bike rack that carries his 17” Blackstone Grill and other necessities. ALso, as an aside, I just received notification from 1Up bike carriers that their super duty aluminum bike rack plus swing out arm are good to carry two e-bikes. Give them a look and see what you think. They are very different in their approach and they are made in the US.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Congrats on your NPE. RVW Thx for watching and taking time to comment

[@Butterfly-t6d]

Next time you or any of your viewers are in Arizona, think about visiting The Lost Dutchman’s State Park. It’s really beautiful with great hiking. Just don’t go when it’s hot 🥵

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Lost Dutchman State Park outside of Phoenix must be experienced by all RVers, I think. The Superstition Mountains are unbelievebale. Have stayed there several times. Thx for recommending that !

[@danleonard3600]

My understanding is the sumo springs, keeper baskets and ram mounts are standard on current models. Lichtsinn RV did a video on changes for 2020.5 models is where I saw this.

[@danleonard3600]

And roll up screens

[@gosmall.livelarge]

I believe you are correct on both accounts. Tough to keep up with the tiny changes applied across the Travato line. Thx for watching and taking time to comment Dan

[@yipyipyip]

@@gosmall.livelarge Dan is correct, I have a 2020.5 G model

[@annlindsey7696]

Love watching your travels and information...

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thanks so much!

[@shannonburke7346]

I am looking to buy the NPE currently because I still work in the city and plan on boondocking to save money. Therefore, I don't think I'll have enough driving time for charging in between staying at an RV park.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Hi Shannon. Great choice on rig! If buzzing around town without much drive distance consider using 4th gear in Manual Transmission Mode and stay under 40 MPH in town to increase RPM which charges significantly faster than using “drive” transmission mode.

[@jaynemiller8464]

Hey Scott great video. I have the NPE 2021 59kl. I sold my extra solar panel that came with mine and I do not use the ram mounts. I love my anything keepers but I had to get extra magnets to help keep them up during the drive. My van was about the same price as the regular edition. I love the Volta system. It’s awesome. And I agree with the solar. I don’t feel like I even need it with the Volta system. Keep up the informative videos, as you know you were my inspiration to buying mine. Thanks.

[@CJ20148]

Jayne Miller how much did you sell your solar panel for? considering selling mine. Otherwise leaving it at a friends garage

[@jaynemiller8464]

CJ Carter I sold mine for 350.00 to get it gone. Happy to see it go. I had no place to store it.

[@CJ20148]

Jayne Miller did you use a RV site to sell it?

[@jaynemiller8464]

CJ Carter I used market place. Sold pretty quickly

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thanks for sharing

[@walt7500]

I agree with having a roof that you can enjoy by sitting/relaxing etc instead of solar!! Looking forward to seeing yours when you complete your roof. Thx Scott!

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thx Walter

[@davedurning5814]

i have the L version i to have upgraded my travado with lift an tires an added the forth battery looking to upgrade the A/c have no regrets i am looking for the part # for NDQ an I to contemplating removing solar

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thx Dave !

[@cyasi]

I’m looking at a Thor Tellaro or Sequence which is aTravato rip.....you can get one for just north of $80g

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thx for sharing. I have seen those, not bad.

[@mikemcgeehan4321]

Very timely. I’ve been reviewing these two models and trying to determine if the national park was worth it. You made some very good points to consider that I hadn’t. This was a big help. Thank you!

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Great to hear! Thx for watching and taking time to comment Mike

[@Thomas-qk7wf]

The wrap on your van looks really good. Great color and easy to keep clean. Keep up the great work.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thanks! Will do Thomas !

[@CJ20148]

Love the deck idea! Look forward to that video. I have the 59KL NPE and love it.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thx for watching and taking time to comment CJ

[@JoAndMikeNow]

Thanks Scott. Great info.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Glad it was helpful Mike

[@BillSprague]

Could an additional Volta module be added? The rest is meh, because they can be easily added. Graphics can be added and I’d prefer a wrap I could design. JMO, certainly.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Cannot add the 4th module to my knowledge. Agree with your custom wrap idea.

[@drofwarcnwahs2108]

I see van folks dropping into three broad categories: Urban, Off-grid(ish) and boon-docking. Urban are those who drive frequently and usually have ready access to external power i.e. RV campsites. Off-gridsish are those folks who drive some but frequently find themselves with no ready access to power for a couple of days or so. Lastly, boondockers drive infrequently and are off-grid for days without access to power and therefore have to generate a considerable portion of their power budget daily. You would fall into the Urban category as would most Travato owners. With ready access to power you only need enough to get you through 1-2 days off grid. The additional power capacity and external solar panels would be essential for Off-gridish and boondockers. However, given the paltry amount of solar options by Winnebago I would chose 3rd party products which provide more capacity, lower weight at a lower cost. I'm just starting looking at various RV rigs and the Travato GL is high on that list. I purchase a Travato Iwould purchase the standard addition and mod it with 3rd party products. As far as mods, I would do all of the ones you have done but replace the Summo springs with a lift kit. I also wouldn't wrap the van. I would however get the additional Lithium core since I plan on going off-gridish to the point of boon-docking.

[@steventoney4018]

at the moment -- there is no path to a standard "L" Travato model have the 4th battery module added....

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thansk for sharing. .. good to know youre looking at Travato!

[@dfloyd888]

I wish there were a way to get that fourth core upgraded. Because I do medieval faire stuff (to keep me sane as a break from IT work), I have two "modes" of RV-ing. At faire, I am boondocking, where I have to have everything self-contained. At best, there might be water on site, but I have to lug a jug. So, battery life to allow me to run the A/C in areas where generators are banned, then a lift to get across the bumpy soil. When not at faire, it is all about weekend touring. Even at a FHU RV park, being able to just park, not even bother plugging in, or just using the hookups for a fill, dump, and overnight battery recharge is nice.

[@douglastoney2843]

Thanks for another great video Scott. We test drove a National Park Edition when we purchased our KL in February 2020. We didn't care for the harsher ride with those tires. We like our sliding door better than the velcro screen door on the NPE. We would have liked the additional insulation, graphics, and Sumo springs, but not for that price. They were discounting ours because it was a 2019 model. Our solar will keep up with the electric refrigerator on a sunny day. I couldn't quite keep up on our trip out west the last four weeks because of the smoke. We already have a 140 portable solar panel from a previous RV. We have never taken it with us because of space considerations. We love the Pure 3 system when it works. We had it in the shop for a month. Our dealer even shipped part of the system to Volta so they could work on it. It lasted for one day on our recent trip. It is getting better. It would not charge under any circumstances before. Now it will charge with shore power, but not when we are driving. A dealer in California tried to help us. Big shout out to Camping World in Anderson, CA for trying and working with Winnebago. Everyone has been super nice, but we still have a very expensive lithium system that won't charge as intended. Back to the shop next week. The Pure3 system is pretty complicated so when it goes south, good luck.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

sorry to learn about your troubles. hopefully resolved very soon. Appreciate you watching, subscribing and taking time to comment

[@georgedouglas3456]

I “love” how big corporations boast of making a donation to organizations “on every unit sold” when in reality you know it’s figured into the cost so actually you’re making the donation and get none of the credit.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Is sorta funny right

[@lynnhoffman90]

Thanks for this. I am debating

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Let the debates begin !

[@deborahschaub2925]

Wow....like i just said on the NEW video you and Kevin 30 And A Wake Up just released.... thanks for all the information. With this new “to me” as I just subscribed to you TODAY....I’m considering the STANDARD version and upgrading like you did and Kevin did with the lift. Do not YET have my Travato...tho i shall next year. Solid video filled with lots of VALUABLE information. Between you and Kevin and WTR; i am learning SO MUCH !!! Blessings

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Right on! Thanks for being an important part of our audiences. WTR are the best. Heavily influenced my getting a van on the road. Love Joe and Kait.

[@stevebritt]

As someone who has just endured the hottest summer in history (54 days over 110!) in Arizona, I rate use of the air conditioning as more important than it apparently is for most RVers. Being able to run the air conditioning hours more would make the extra battery capacity of the NPE a big plus while camping in hot weather.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

good point SB. My philosophy is the stay in temperate temps. that would NOT to be sitting in 110 or 25 degrees temps. .

[@randyebastian8186]

Scott, what about decent insulation to help with heat and cold??? Winnebago is so close to being perfect, but the lack of insulation and decent warranty is bothersome.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

newer Travato are much better insulated than my 2019 rig

[@Rennysdca]

great video...appreciate the comparison. We have a non-L "G" and added all 4 sumo springs within 90 days...highly recommend! A couple "anything keepers" will go up soon and some mods to the cabinets/storage soon. Tire/wheel change likely 12 months from now. Lithium battery and/or the NDQ ac unit upgrade will follow after that.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Sounds great! Thx for watching and taking time to comment Don.

[@rickthogode94]

The roof deck sounds like an awesome idea. Have you inquired about it? And what material would it be? I’m assuming aluminum for the light weight.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

roof jacks are usually made of aluminum. I’m too afraid of heights to add one to my van.

[@johndurham5773]

It appears that the NPF did more for Travatos than just for the NPF. Call it a prototype for future standard Travato owners. Our 2020.5 KL came standard with many of the new features that were introduced on the NPF version. Sumo Springs, Hang down baskets, additional insulation in walls, updated roll down screen, Ram Mounts. The only thing missing on our KL 'standard" is the graphics package, extra lithium "core", special flooring you spoke about, and the wheels and tires -- things that cost more than what I feel is too expensive and can be done later as a mod if we choose for much less than the NPF badge. I totally agree with non-necessity for solar and the extra lithium. Well done on the comparison sir!

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thank you John !

[@mattj6940]

A change of heart on the lift I see lol. Looking forward to seeing it! I’m also thinking once I get the GL of removing the panels for extra storage. Rooftop lounging would be great as well!

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thx Matt

[@frederickhaines3080]

Nicely presented!

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Glad you liked it!

[@kderevan]

We went for the National Park Edition KL. This is our first RV, and from my research, I knew I wanted all the upgrades, and that I wouldn't be comfortable getting it all done. The graphics are OK, not a deciding factor. The floor covering is nice, a plus for me. The sand/grit sifts through, so it's like walking on a rug, and I hate walking on smooth floors with dirt on them. Love the extra power, because I can't stand hot weather, and plenty of AC is a must. Unfortunately, we got our Travato only a few weeks ahead of Covid shutdowns, so we haven't really travelled in it, but we have enjoyed a few local overnights and several day trips. I'm content with the NPF edition, because the thought of having all those upgrades done makes my head spin. Inside, I've added storage to the back wall, and more of the Anything Keepers because they are really handy. Also, the Ram Track thing is good for mounting battery-operated small fans. But those are things I could have done myself, so no big deal there. The roll-up screen is definitely a must for me. I have almost a phobia of flying insects, and the roll-up screen can stay in place all the time, and you don't have to open it to go in and out, so fewer bugs get in. About the wheels and tires. I was getting gas when the T was a week or two old, and a man at the next pump admired my rig and said "Sexy tires!" They do look nice.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thx for watching and taking time to comment Kathi. thrilled you love your NPe !!

[@dfloyd888]

Out of curiosity, how long does the battery bank hold up for your usage?

[@kderevan]

dfloyd888 I haven’t had a chance to test the full capacity, since our scheduled long trips have been postponed due to Covid. On our local overnights, we’ve had more than enough power.

[@emcoss]

The more and more I look and make list of what I want in a class B van it’s making more sense to build out my own van. NEE. National Emily Edition. 😜

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Trademark that quickly, Emily !!!

[@tomfrank3406]

Been quietly watching since the beginning 😊 I love your insights and am grateful for the input. Due to Covid I retired about a year earlier than planned. While I'd love to travel the country in an RV, not sure I could leave my still working husband for such long periods. Thinking of starting exploring with quick day trips to test the waters. Hmmmm but what kind of rig ???? Best wishes are you continue live free and educate ❤️

[@danleonard3600]

Try a rental first.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thanks for sharing, and for quietly watching!

[@BackyardBiketours]

I don't own a camper van nor motorhome but I only have 1 place where I disagree. That is the graphics on the exterior. You did a video where you parked on the street next to a church. Lillie fit right into the area/neighborhood. I think, and this is just me, the exterior graphics will make the van stand out and could possibly hamper the ability to do stealth camping.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

thank you John. Appreciate your observation

[@QBNTO1]

Great video!!

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Appreciate that

[@nbragtop]

Great video, Scott, Thank you! I purchased a 2020.5 K and not the KL . Kinda of using the same rational as you did on your GL vs. a NPE GL. Knowing that probably 80% of my camping will be where I have access to electrical power., I would not need the Volta system. The 20% that I will be camping with no hookups and of that time there are just a few hours per day that I would actually need a Generator. So for the money, The "K" just made sense. We are blessed to have choices. Living and camping in the southeast, unfortunately, I have not been able to find many places to boondock or camp free. Hey, a video idea for you, "cool places to boondock or camp free in the southeast".

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Truth on having choices Rag Top

[@davidstephen8943]

Nice video, Scott. I have the NPE and appreciate the bigger battery bank. I put the zamp solar panel in the garage and never take it with me.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thx for watching and taking time to comment David. Apprecaite that

[@daveduncan2748]

Solar on a Travato L is virtually irrelevant. That 6000W underhood generator is amazing. It can recharge the normal L in 1.4 hours and the National Park Edition L in less than 2 hours--and it just happens while you drive. Contrast that with 200W of solar for an effective 5 hours per day, it would take almost 9 days to charge the normal L pack and almost 12 days for the NPE L. And that's if you didn't use any electricity during the "charging." The solar may be good for keeping the batteries topped up when not in use, but otherwise, the underhood generator can generate the same amount of energy in 10 minutes that the solar generates in a full day of sun.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

thanks for the math lesson Dave!

[@steventoney4018]

Scott, Don't forget you paid over 5 grand for your very cool wrap graphics.... so you have the coolest and most unique Travato out there.....................you can add the RAM tracks and mounts -- they are very helpful and I think you can get the basket keeper as well... Luke is just the calmest cool dude...............................have safe journeys...................hopefully I move from wannabe to GL owner soon............ As we discussed..............one of my first mods is to do what "the Ginger Walkabout" did.. replace the radio head unit with an Alpine Halo and maestro integration for better built in navigation - apple car play and OBDII links to monitor tires - the engine and other things off the chassis computer -- and likely with add a front and rear dashcam -- side blind spot cameras etc... plus adding something that lets the solar help mind the charging chassis battery -- need to find something compatible with Volta- if parked for awhile as I'll not be a full timer

[@gosmall.livelarge]

You are correct about cool cat Luke! Thx for watching and taking time to comment Steve

[@DEGrammy]

New Pioneer head Unit on 2021 Travatos

[@howardreplogle]

I bought our 2019KL used so didn’t have the NPE choice, which was fine because I’d rather pick and choose my mods. Ours did come with a rather unique mod, upsized rooftop solar panels totaling 720 watts, which might be big enough to make a difference. I’m having ours lifted by OHV in a couple weeks and I’ll eventually add all terrain tires. I’ve done many less significant mods, including a door mounted spare tire, that don’t come on the NPE, and since graphics are unimportant to me, I’m happy to do without the NPE upgrades. One exception may be the NPE enhanced Volta power but I’ll need some more time to see how I use what I’ve got. I did install both available Volta add-ons, the battery pack heater and the blue-tooth module, which were relatively inexpensive and will probably prove useful. I’m enjoying your videos Scott, keep it up!

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thx for watching and taking time to comment Howard. With you on making own mods.

[@bandmarc141]

Scott! 😎😎😁😁😁 Great video! 📹 🎥 I like the Graphics...tire wheel package. I agree with you on the Volta System. Very helpful! Thanks! 👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Right on MJ !!!!

[@peterkalian9989]

excellent Video!

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thank you! Cheers Peter!

[@jaynemiller8464]

Awwww hey Luke. Looking good buddy. Big hugs to you.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

LUKE says “hi Jayne”. :)

[@ffavaff]

Another great video! I originally purchased the same model Travato that you have (2019 GL) that I bought August last year. In May I traded it in for a 2021 GL NPFe. I wanted the larger Volta capacity for a/c. I spent June and July traveling through the Midwest and the temperatures were in the 90s and sometimes 100s. I drive until 3:30-4:00 most days and it was very difficult finding shade. I had to keep the a/c on high at 73 degree all night and would wake up in the morning in the red zone. So I needed every bit of the extra 30% the upgraded Volta. I don’t anticipate needing use my a/c as much in the winter. Bottom line for me was that I need the extra Volta capacity. I also love the extras you mentioned, except the solar panels.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Congrats on your NPE Ava !

[@elizabethfritz-cottle4733]

Hi! I just picked up my new to us NPF model and let me tell you, that rug upgrade is actually perilous as I have slipped on it numerous times since picking it up last Wednesday. I’m probably gonna pitch it soon enough. The graphics package has the potential to ‘age’ the edition in years to come - think of the 80s trucks with the crazy graphics. I also agree that the solar is a bit redundant, as the trickle charge on these solar panels is not quite worth the real estate of toting that thing around! So, who knows - we may elect to not bring it with us on shorter trips. But the big get? We slept with the AC on pretty dang cold, unplugged, and woke up at 40% charge on the Volta. We will need to consider that boondocking will mean more trips to dump, but I like knowing that our system will be decently charged even after three to four days of no movement (without using the AC). If you want to camp with full showers and lots of luxury - well, you probably aren’t looking at a Travato - but if you’re willing to supplement your tank life by using the outdoor facilities and bathing in lakes and streams, then the NPF might be a great option. Regardless, it’s whatever gets you outside and gets you closer to new experiences. Also: we will probably do the additional lift on ours in a year or so based on Kevin’s recommendations, because I do think this has the potential to be an off-grid, off-road vehicle. We’re not trying to rock climb in this thing, but we are looking to get away from campgrounds and parking lots.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thx for watching and taking time to comment Elizabeth. great points you make

[@burritojonz]

Your opinion. I want to know... what YOU THINK... how much I could buy a used rig like yours for. Thx

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Depends of course, but probably by not a lot less than what I paid because Class B RV Travato with Volta are tough to get. And with the 59G floor. My guess is $90k-$95K. Check out RVTrader.com to check used prices.

[@0150r]

Doesn't the standard Travato have a generator? The GL/KL are upgrades from the standard. The 2021 standard Travatos have sumo springs and the rollup screen now.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

You are correct on all accounts. I was coming form a Volta Li-ion standpoint. My mistake.. thx !

[@rogeraberger]

The practical part of me is screaming "don't do the deck on the roof!" I'd hate to find out that while you were out boon docking you fell off the roof - what would Luke do? My concern is for your or anyone else's safety - especially when you travel alone and are not a, sorry, spring chicken. I like what you have done with your van in terms of upgrades that compete with the NPE. Rather than spending that money on their "upgrade", you got what you wanted. Your "sticker" is way more cool than the NPE stuff.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

thanks Roger. I’m afraid of heights and after that glass of wine... well.. We will see if I get a “deck”.

[@steventoney4018]

I'm sure I would fall off.. so no deck for this old wannabe............hoping to order a 2021.5 GL soon

[@leslietolmie3532]

Love your shirt.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Dressing for success! Thx Leslie

[@Van_Liberty]

How would I modify my Travato KL?....Hmmm...Oh, yeah...Embassy RV sniped me from getting one with all of their many Revolutionary/Evolutionary ways of building a B van....Yep, it happened...I did come Very close to getting the NPF coach...Somewhow, my patience held out and BAM!... All of the points you make are valid and worthy of comparison. It's helpful for those who are not sure about which is which with these models.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Embassy RV !!!

[@dfloyd888]

I love Embassy RV's work, but unfortunately, the Travato is the only US made "B" with the floorplan I need (i.e. a full desk for work stuff, and a separate bed, as well as a bathroom for not-so-skinny people), so I am going with the T. I would love a Ford Transit with the Travato's floor plan, but that is likely not possible.

[@steventoney4018]

a transit would make a nice GL......................the cab in a transit is very comfortable and is available as AWD.. the MB Sprinter is a very nice cab and has all the modern safety features and amenities -- but I just can not bring myself to do diesel

[@Van_Liberty]

@@steventoney4018 In my opinion, compared to the epic 400 ft lbs of torque the Ecoboost engine in the Transit provides is right there with the diesel. It's also Quick on acceleration, eclipsing the diesel. Then, there's the limited MB dealer network compared to Ford and the Cost of service/repair. The Only thing the MB has on the Ford is the very open front cockpit area. They have that, hands down.

[@lorijo5536]

Good video Scott! Still thinking/researching phase but feel like you’ve taught me so much about the T that I might have to go that route because I’m now most familiar with it. Hi little friend Luke!

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Glad it was helpful! Travato is #1 Class B RV for a reason. Luke says hi Lori !

[@lisaklepp5167]

I totally agree with you about the solar panels. It would be best that they were not on the roof and then you have extra storage. Otherwise, storage would go above the panels

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thanks LK. !!

[@chautiendung]

It’s all about energy. More battery. Always.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Agree with you

[@CWChandler1968]

I wish the Volta was available on the Revel. I like that rig better, but no Volta. Can you add it? Is the diesel why they don’t do the Volta?

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Probably a good reason why not, but could not tell you why. Thx CC

[@stephenstringer3689]

Well watching this video I learned that you smoke a pipe and play guitar, lol. As for the Travato...I believe the new Travato's come standard with the Coleman NDQ, anything keepers, RAM Trough Track and sumo springs. So seems to me it all about the 4th cell. The wheels would a lot cheaper to replace than the NP upcharge. Graphics are nice but scream camper van...I could miss that. Guess the only big question would be if you could add another cell, if desired? Your van is fine...you were just a year ahead of the curve. The lift package Kevin got sounds good if you want to go a little further off the paved road. Good video as usual!

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Eager to get my rig lifted. thx for noticing on the pipe and guitar. Learning to play. Thx for watching and taking time to comment

[@clemmycat]

Thanks for the comparison and very good information!! I agree about having a rooftop area to use! It would be so cool to sit up there or lounge! (Prayers for the West Coast! The fires are horrible and too all of the wildlife...just breaks my heart😢) We used to live near Bonney Lake aka Sumner, WA and fires have broken out there too....

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Glad it was helpful Mindy

[@byronbrasher8118]

That is an Andersen stabilizer bucket. I bought one this summer to try out and I love it. It seems so much more stable than using the orange blocks. It allows me to not have to put the tongue down so far and creates a more solid base. I would have been much more nervous with those ruts if we still had the 400.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thanks for the info!

[@richardwinn7489]

HI Scott, Thanks for the video's. I purchased a 2021 KL NP and love the extra features. I purchased it (first time rv) because of all of the extra features that you mentioned but you did not include that the Acrylic windows are standard plus the insulation top to bottom. The NPE is truly a four season van. The solar panels are not needed. I placed my extra panel in my attic. I liked the GL model but at being 6'3 tall the murphy bed was a deal breaker. I needed the length in the KL. Keep up the reviews, we love them. Take care

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thx for watching and taking time to comment Richard. didn’t realize the acrylics windows were standard, and are we sure those weren’t listed as part of the package. KZbinrs Chad & Paul hav the traditiaonl slide0-by windows too. Maybe they are now part of the total MPE package. Thx for watching and taking time to comment

[@markdaniels70]

I agree with your comments regarding the NP edition.... may be a mute punt as I've heard W discontinued it..... also agree and wish W would offer a GL / KL without solar option and save a few $$$ on price...

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Interesting. Thanks Seasonal

[@dawnbyland7568]

Thank you for the info

[@gosmall.livelarge]

No worries! Thx for watching and taking time to comment Dawn

[@joymiller2368]

Love your comparison. Oddly enough I’m looking at the National Park Edition & the owner took the graphics off

[@gosmall.livelarge]

very cool... if I had to replace my van today, I would seek out a used NPE 59GL, wrap it, lift it, and add a brush guard!

[@ToniAdventures]

Scott, I believe another difference is the insulation. More insulation in the NPR.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Yes, more insaulltaion has been added across the Travato line I believe. Thx for watching and taking time to comment Toni

[@rickbaker2330]

Great information Scott. I totally agree with you on upgrading a Travato to meet specs on the NPE, other than more battery capacity. Seriously, Winnebago knows this too as proven by the introduction of the 2020 1/2 versions to the Travato. I have always thought it less costly to upgrade and not purchase the NPF, so thank you for giving us some numbers on the upgrade cost.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thanks for sharing Rick. more to come

[@Pinky121971]

Great comps Scott. Thanks for the tips and tricks, How to’s. Next upgrade is AWD?

[@gosmall.livelarge]

That would be so cool right?! Thx for watching and taking time to comment

[@donnamc1695]

Wasn't there supposed to be more insulation in the NPE vs the standard Tavato?

[@thegingerwalkabout1550]

I think they improved the insulation across the whole Travato line with the 2020.5s and NPF editions. They tend to inprove insulation every model year. Maybe one of these days it won't totally suck 😀

[@gosmall.livelarge]

See Ginger’s reply below. Thx for watching and taking time to comment Donna

[@steventoney4018]

@@thegingerwalkabout1550 I wonder if that includes the inside of front side and rear doors??

[@thegingerwalkabout1550]

@@steventoney4018 No idea. Someone on the FaceBook group may have opened up a newer model and posted about it. Worth a search there.

[@scottwalker7611]

As I do not currently own an RV, I did fall in love with the Travato 59G floor plan. I would opt for a standard version and add the mods that made the most sense to me. I'm not one for being told this is how it's going to be. There are two substantial upgrade I would want to attempt, one is to find a way to have a larger fresh water tank and to figure out how to convert the table into a standing desk, that raises and lowers back to a dining table.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Hi Scott. Great name BTW. I use the galley counter top extension as a standing desk all the time, especially when there is a Nice view out the sliding door. Use a portable water container to add fresh water without modifying a fixed tank has worked for me and other.

[@scottwalker7611]

@@gosmall.livelarge Yes we do share a great name! I've seen the video regarding your extra water containers. I guess a larger tank or extra containers both take up extra space... So maybe you have the perfect solution. Is your fresh tank 18 gallons? If so, how often do you refill the fresh water with normal use?

[@gosmall.livelarge]

@@scottwalker7611 My fresh is 18 gallons onboard water. I carry the supplemental portable container of 4 gallons that is easily filled nearly anywhere. Likely to do a water update video on that container as I really like it..

[@Thesaltymedic36]

Good points. Plus you can always high idle the engine to recharge. I like the deck idea up top. I think a foldable panel would work better anyhow, park in the shade and aim a good, 150 watt panel to boondock. The extra Volta cell surely can’t hurt. More is better, right? 😂. Good points, great video 👍🏼

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thx for watching and taking time to comment Salty !!

[@rvwall-e]

I believe mine is a 140 panel in a beautiful carry case with an addition extension cable. Some people on toaw have complained that they either did not receive them or that dealers palmed off 90 watt panels.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Oh boy! Thx for watching and taking time to comment RVW

[@RoadsofLife]

Agree on the solar... just too expensive for what it really does (trickle charging). The extra battery power on the NPE is nice, but is it really worth the extra expense? Your upgrades seem to do the trick for less money. And being up on the rig in nice chairs is NOT weird... it's an opportunity for a new view! Be seeing you!

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Rob!! Thanks for validating I’m not Wiewiora for wanting to be on the roof. Though I am afraid fo heights.

[@shekharmoona544]

The way he talks about cost efficiency is close to what an Economics professor state. In business you want to be able to use all options in a buying purchase. Any functions not utilized is a financial loss.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Truth on using functionally to its fullest SM

[@dfloyd888]

Exactly. I've been looking at the NPS package, and the one thing that sells it to me is the added battery capacity. If Winnebago just had all four banks filled, with a non NPS option, I'd take that any day.

[@2Stumps]

Sweet! I lived in Spokane for 10 years and Graduated from High School at East Valley! Gooo Knights! I mean no offense Scott, but after watching the video right to the Volta time stamp, please take a drink here and there because your Microphone is picking up dry mouth sounds! I made sure to watch until then end lol! I did Subscribe after watching your first video, because your Videos are top notch, with Amazing detailed information! Hi Luke, Nice Headbutt!

[@gosmall.livelarge]

thanks for drink suggest. Next cold beer is on you! LOL. Appreciate you being a subscriber.

[@lacc9841]

Hi Scott, thanks for another interesting video.... When I saw your video's title, the first thing that came to mind is cost comparison. I'll explain later.... Your comment regarding parking on a shade to keep the internal van in a lower level being better vs getting as much solar and parking directly under the sun rays in order to charge the batteries, I didn't think it that way.....thanks...you changed my mind as I was thinking on putting as much panels possible when I get my van, which it does not make sense on a large battery bank.... Going back to the "standard / NPF comparison, in my mind your van is not "standard". For me the G model is the standard one in the Travato Lineup and most Rvs, class B anyways, do not come with Lithium. At most with AGM batteries. As I have the disposition to fix and do things myself, my plan is to buy an "Standard" RV and then do the Lithium batteries, Inverter / charger upgrades. So far It shows to be ( to me anyways ) more cost effective doing it that way....however that could change later if pricing from manufactures start to go down. Stay safe!!!!

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thx LC. Glad I could help a little

[@ryanbirr1668]

It's 140 watts of extra solar according to Winnebago. I agree with your assessment of the utility of solar on a big lithium battery. If you're using the a/c you'll have to recharge some way other than solar. If you're not using a/c your battery will almost certainly outlast your tanks.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Ryan! Been a while since you commented sir. Thanks for going so

[@richardburguillos3118]

Nice comparison.... looks like the put the Winnebago Boldt Volta system in it as that number sounds like the one Boldt has... the storage baskets are also on the Boldt. That’s why I want a 4x4 Boldt with the 2” lift. Really wish they had the Revel bed that rises in the Boldt.

[@steventoney4018]

They need to make the Boldt bathroom a bit wider..... a lift bed in the back of the BL model would a great change.. you could have lots of storage top and bottom and a "garage" function

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thx for watching and taking time to comment Richard. Boldt is a nice RV

[@7heRedBaron]

You hit square on the point that I have felt about all class B RVs, the lack of water. Even small class Cs carry 50 gallons or more. Some like the Russos carry a Berkey filter so they can scoop water out of a stream and filter it. They carry extra bottles so as not to fowl their onboard system with unpotable water. But they have to work around the extreme limits of these vehicles. Someone needs to design some polyvinyl accessory water containers in the shape of a bicycle that could easily mount into the bicycle rack and carry an extra 40 gallons of water on back without requiring any modification to the vehicle. This would save adding a hitch mounted shelf and cooler, which is the other choice.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Cool ideas. Are you looking for investors ?!

[@7heRedBaron]

Go Small. Live Large! 😀😀 Maybe I should look into it better. Thanks!

[@Molly-eq1ix]

I'm the newbie with the 2014 Travato G. I've been out for one night at a state park just to get the feel and the biggest thing I missed was the screens for the side and back. The flimsy one which came with the vehicle is really bad. My screens shipped today from Canada. They should be easy to install....I believe in the tooth fairy too...and will be great if you are doing a lot of stopping in buggy areas.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Ah yes, bugs. Congrats and Welcome to Travatoing

[@joenovak9366]

Standard solar is 215.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Good to know. My 2019 version has 200 watts. Have you seen my video on Urban Van Camping… kzbin.info/www/bejne/epLQgJSIpLmmZrM

[@billbeyatte]

Your "cool" wrap will make your rig soak up more sun.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

And the trick is to stay out of sunlight!

[@DEGrammy]

There's a guy from Cali- he's a surfer-on the TOWB FB group who had a custom deck engineered for his Travato last year. You can search the group- he has several photos posted and he did a video.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

I remember seeing something like that. Thx Linda

[@holalulis1032]

I think i prefer urban - so I'd be ok with standard. Can you do more videos on urban style experiences?

[@gosmall.livelarge]

More coming! Thx for watching, subscribing, and taking time to comment Lulis

[@dfloyd888]

For me, I will be mainly charging the Travato either by driving it, or having the engine auto start and run. The additional solar panel would be something I would just leave at home. For me, who spends 5-6 months of the year at a medieval festival on weekends, where it starts out cool, then in March/April gets into the 90s, having battery capacity is paramount, to last the night, with some engine running in the day. To me, only reason that the NPS edition appeals is for the four Volta cores. Nothing else.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Tell us more about the medieval festival. I want to go!

[@dfloyd888]

​ @Go Small. Live Large! I live in Texas, and there are several throughout the year. The two biggest are TRF (Texas Renaissance Faire) which runs nine weeks from the end of September to late November, and is west of Houston. The second one is a medieval faire, called Sherwood Forest Faire, which runs from late February to late April, around eight weeks. This is about 45 miles east of Austin between Austin and Houston on 290. I have greatly enjoyed Sherwood, and the distraction of being on cast, which is completely different from my "day" job. The GL model is perfect for my needs. Especially when parking in a quiet area where generators are not allowed. In the daytime, nobody cares if a vehicle engine is running for a few hours, as, from what I have gathered, I'll probably kick the auto start to run for an hour around 10-11, and then kick it around 4-5, which should top the Volta battery bank off enough to keep the A/C on.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

@@dfloyd888 I will check into those festivals. Would make for a great KZbin video, yes? Travato GL + Medieval Faire!

[@gerger7287]

Neither would not work for me I'm 6-6", would prefer one with a bubble top, and also, it is really not too senior friendly, when you're in your 70s, and it's not very handicapped friendly. Think they need to make the unit's a little bit more handicap friendly; some more seniors can get into it. Some of the controls on the outside; are too low to the ground for seniors, and seniors have bad hips / knees / lower disc problems. It sounds odd but most seniors, start developing aches and pains, and this unit is more for the younger people. I do like the colors on the inside I don't think I would want the black color on the outside he would show Too many scratch, and also stained. Thank you for the education of excellent tour of the van. Think alll RV should come with standard enclosed bug/screen room, attached to the awning on both sides. Wish more RV's would have small bath tub, great for soaking. Like the frt sun shade on window.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Get a Ford Transit chassis with an Embassy RV build out GG!

[@andrewpoulos127]

Hi Scott, while watching your National Park Foundation comparison to the Standard Edition you mentioned how you were able to use your apple pad and attach it to get a TV screen affect. Can you include how you did that in one of your future vidieos?

[@gosmall.livelarge]

I have an Apple TV connected through HDMI to the installed TV. I stream from my iPad to the Apple TV, which displays the content on the TV.. I did a video a long way back showing the setup.. Will see what I can do for you,.

[@sharonfields6703]

I like the standard, but I am only looking and dreaming now. I did want solar but rethinking that with the Volta system. I want just a little bit longer to be able to keep a e-bike inside the van at night when the Murphy bed is down.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thx for watching and taking time to comment SF

[@rfleming7883]

The GL model is very appealing. The relatively limited tank capacity is a problem for me. Have you modified the way you live (reduced boondocking, less dispersed camping or more) to allow living with such small tanks? I love the Volta system, and am a potential Travato owner. Thanks for a well thought out and informative video.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

More of an urban camper with use RV parks and campsite instead of wildernss cmaping. I can get about 5 days on the black tank. RVing is a modified way of living LOL. Thx for watching and taking time to comment

[@jaynstokes1987]

hey love your videos, they are the best of anyone doing this I think. two questions for you please, approx how long can you go in days before having to dump black tank? I really love the travato but the tank size is the biggest potential downfall, however if you can go maybe 5 days, then that might be ok because I think I would travel more like you do and stay in one place a max of about 5 or 6 days. 2nd part to that question, could someone upgrade the tank size somewhat? 2nd question, do you have to drive the vehicle to charge the volta system back, or can you just start it and let it run in place and charge it back? thanks again and keep making the videos

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Appreiate your nice comment Jay. 5 days on black tank, but I use my toilet instead of going elsewhere. Extend fresh water by using portable container; i have a 4 gallon. Charge your Volta system by driving, CHarge On Demand while stationery, or plugged into shore power.

[@patrickmchargue7122]

I wonder if you can buy & install an additional Volta Pure 3 lithium core. I don't think I'd add a deck above. probably would dispense with rooftop solar in favor of more storage.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Cannot add the 4th core to existing system. Rooftop storage sounds cool, but can be a challenge to access which it is likely not to get used much. I had 2 chairs stored on the roof. Never used them because “tough” to get too and out of sight out of mind. Gave them away. Thx for watching and taking time to comment

[@patrickmchargue7122]

@@gosmall.livelarge The experience you noted - being hard to get to - inveighs against a deck. (though I can see it would be cool)

[@stevebritt]

On adding the lift kit, it seems like a no-brainer for any travel on unpaved/rough roads. However, I watched the "30 and A Wake up" video twice and apparently the front was raised more than the rear. The van seems to angle down towards the rear. If so, that will be bad for the handling and the traction of the drive wheels.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Good point. I’d prefer a mostly level amount of a lift with a nod toward a lower nose and a higher tail stay tuned

[@stevebritt]

@@gosmall.livelarge Thank you for the feedback. I did some research on the Travato page on Facebook and found a few really scary handling descriptions of the effects of installing the lift kit which raises the front more than the rear. It can make the Travato wander and sway in crosswinds and is especially bad on curves at freeway speeds. - Some immediately made changes to the suspension to lower the front. On the up side, no one reported more than a 1 mpg drop in mileage from installing the kit.

[@MichaelWellman1955]

Last fall when I bought my GL I had taken a hard look at the NPE. The changes made in the 2020.5 edition make the difference between the NPE edition minimal. The only difference is the lithium battery size, wheels, paint and solar. For the price it wasn't worth the price. The Travato will never be an off road vehicle so I don't think the tire change is worth it. I would love to do the 4" lift just to have that extra clearance. I, too, have thought about taking the solar off the top because I would like to access the top for other things. Being a Volta rep do you know if you if you can add an additional battery to take it to the max? I could never get a good answer on that.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thanks MW. Not a Volta rep, just their Brand Ambassabor, and appreciate you noticing. Don’t think it is practical, cost effective if even possible to add the 4th core to the system.

[@dfloyd888]

@@gosmall.livelarge Thanks. I was curious if the fourth core could be added in the field, but I'm pretty sure due to voltage balancing of a battery bank group, it can't be added. So, this pretty much pushes me to the NPS edition, although I wish there were a way to have the decals purged and a complete debadge. I live in a town that is extremely RV hostile, and the more stealth, the better. A gray generic van, people just think it might be some Amazon dude in between runs.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

@@dfloyd888 the decals, like my van wrap, can be removed by carefully peeling it from the painted surface

[@stephenwhite546]

Try a harness on Luke . Be much easier for him to walk

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Tired the harness. He hated it. Collar works well for him. Thx for watching and taking time to comment SW

[@KjunHoosier]

Is it possible to retrofit a 2021 G with a Volta system? Great video too! Thanks!!

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Unfortunately not, from what I'm told for a reasonable $$...

[@peterkalian9989]

You had mentioned that you stay in one pace for 2-3 days. what do you do when you are camped? Hike? Relax?

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Make KZbin videos mostly !!! Thx PK

[@alphpup3281]

Neither is available right now so oh well.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

#1 issue with customers and dealer that I talk with.. You are spot on

[@lbvaliq]

Hey, I enjoyed seeing your mods even tho I saw your disclaimer that the NPE is not available as of 9/20. However I do have a question: Did you do a tour of the Dining Area of your home? If you did, would you please reply with the link or the proper name so I can find it? I only found 3 parts of the tour (Galley, Bedroom, Bath) and I thought they were SO helpful with all the measurements. Thanks!

[@lbvaliq]

I forgot to mention, if you belong to Travato Owners and Wannabees, search for roof deck. One of the owners in CA had both a spare tire mod and a roof deck mod custom fabricated there-- I saw his post-- Don't know if he removed his solar to install it.

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thx for deck tip. I think I have seen that before . The part 4 of floor plan series is coming soon.

[@waynebersch9150]

Wave at Wenatchee as you pass through (if you’re taking highway 2).

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Love Wenatchee and Leavenworth !

[@steventoney4018]

hopefully the smoke will move out before Scott heads west

[@waynebersch9150]

Steven Toney Another week of smoke is what the news is telling us. :(

[@DotComMomm]

You might want to check out this video, they have a roof deck with walkable solar panels. So you can have both. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gajGoKqFpritmMU

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Thank you DCM !!

[@danishknight2798]

Could you add the "4th core" in your volta system?

[@gosmall.livelarge]

Negative... sealed a the factory.