Chuck: The two weapon fighting axe thrower: D&D

[@TreantmonksTemple]

at 23:11 I recommend Humunculus servant as the second artificer infusion, but likely a better choice is a Spell Tattoo: Find Familiar. I go over why FF is probably better in the video, but I forgot we can now get it as an infusion through spell tattoos.

[@micahthomas6600]

I was just about to mention this.

[@Startoshadows]

Using a familiar for pack tactics will leave the familiar in danger before or after your attacks though, and if the opponent's movement is reduced by slasher the familiar may be significantly more likely to be targeted.

[@gregbowen2477]

@@Startoshadows Since you don't need the familiar to Help, thanks to pack tactics, you could have it Dodge to at least boost its odds of surviving a bit.

[@studynot757]

Spellwrought Tattoo’s disappear after you cast them so I’m not sure that is sustainable/affordable is it?

[@Startoshadows]

@@studynot757 you can make a new one each day out of the mundane version of the item, which would probably be a needle. The closest analogue to a tattoo needle I found was a blowgun needle, which are 50 for 1gp. Unless your DM makes you find something different to use your class feature it shouldn't be too difficult to sustain.

[@dylandugan76]

Chris: Take 14 Intelligence. It's a surprise tool that will help us later. Me: A Wizard multiclass? Why am I not surprised? But I see where this is going: Pack Tactics + Find Familiar. A little cheesy, sure, but whatever it takes to keep dual wielding and thrown weapons relevant in the late game. The defensive boosts from War Mage are significant and obvious. Maybe he thinks we'll eventually need Magic Weapon, or Haste, or Fire Shield, in order to... Chris: Artificer is a necessity for this build. Me: You had my curiosity. Now you have my attention.

[@jakubkucharczyk5255]

Your videos taught me how to properly build spellcasters. Before them, I was measuring the power of a wizard in relation to diameter of a crater we can make with his blasting spells. You opened my eyes how to really take a wizard to the new heights to be more effective than I ever imagined. And I'm so glad you started building fighters, I believe you'll add dimensions that I could have never thought existed. I hope more weapon users will appear as new builds in your channel.

[@smile-tl9in]

"i would recommend making a dart build" dart build. That is a name I haven't heard in a long time. A powerful name, given only to the strongest warriors of an edition long forgotten....

[@oljigg1202]

I had to nerf dart throwing giant belt wearing grandmaster fighters in my campaigns. Luckily I did it before my players ever figured out how it worked

[@Adurnis]

I like the idea of using your “free” battlemaster maneuvers to take social boosts, like Tactical Assessment and Commanding Presence, so this character can be a little better on non-combat days.

[@SmugLookingBarrel]

This build makes me want to hurl. ...nicely done ;)

[@RandomToon1]

I almost never like a comment, but this was just too well done to not give you the thumbs up.

[@andrewreimann5203]

You had us in the first half, I’m not gonna lie

[@JugglingAddict]

You just wanted to throw it out there, right?

[@luiswi]

Most of your builds are above the baseline, which makes sense because the baseline is like the minimum amount of damage a build should deal if it is focused on dealing damage. Maybe you should also compare your builds with other builds that are above the baseline, I think that would be interesting to know.

[@ryanherbert4878]

Agreed. Give us them compared to other top tier builds and guides.

[@Veon97]

This build would be INCREDIBLY smooth if say a party member was going to go artificer anyway and if you coordinate with them they can give you a returning weapon, than you can just go straight fighter for MAXIMUM ATTACKS

[@nyanbrox5418]

yeah you get extra extra attack sooner, and you drop into wizard 3 levels earlier, so you'd still get shield and war mage, so just even more defense

[@seacliff217]

I also came to the conclusion the Returning Weapon infusion was a must for a Thrown Weapon fighting build. I love how an Artificer dip can benefit both spellcasting and martial classes.

[@thefakecat8340]

Ill be honest im still new to dnd as i have a like maybe a year or two of limited experience. When making my build instead of infusion my first idea was using rope or chain attached to the weapon to allow me to retrieve it.

[@joshualinley4417]

Leave it to Treantmonk to make a thrown weapon build that's actually interesting. Looks like fun!

[@theeye8276]

Throw weapon fighting has the highest dpr..... as long as you have alot of javalins of lightning

[@TheRobversion1]

good point.

[@davidmoore5159]

I know a giant that throws boulders that you should meet

[@curveofsound]

That's where I would recommend the infusion weapon of returning

[@AuraXars]

I wish u could add returning weapon on it, just image all the zaps

[@douglascheesman]

Always love a non-Meta build that is optimized to at least compete to make a unique character. Keep it up!

[@theeye8276]

What does non-meta mean? Meta gaming the monsters you expect to be facing?

[@luketfer]

@@theeye8276 by meta they mean the highly optimized builds that are basically waaaay above power level of other builds. For martials it's basically Great Weapon Master + Polearm Mastery and using a crit fishing Zealot Barbarian/Champion Fighter build IIRC. That's nothing compared to the various battlefield control Wizard builds that are available.

[@ikaemos]

I particularly like that this build is both well-optimized for combat _and_ versatile and providing decent utility all throughout its progression. I initially thought, "oh, a throwing build, it's gonna be completely unrecognizable for most of its runtime and then late-dip into kensei or something". Nope. It also doesn't do a 180 that you have to justify in-character, I can totally see this working as a kobold tinkerer since level 1.

[@kelvinvoorneveld7265]

also with the quick toss manuerve you can throw a net as a bonus action and still have your action to throw your weapons with advantage

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Chuck can make his weapon attacks with advantage, then use his bonus action to attack again with advantage, why throw a net? Also, this build would have disadvantage throwing nets.

[@TheRobversion1]

@@TreantmonksTemple agreed. Nets work better with the dart version.

[@jeffdietz630]

I like the build. I would think the build perfect for ritual caster feat to gain numerous rituals including find familiar and phantom steed in order to proc pack tactics. This allows levels 14 thru 20 as best served via artificer. You get the cake and can eat it too approach this way.

[@larstollefsen1236]

I did not realize that the infused item is a focus for artificers so the Enhanced Arcane Focus makes more sense now. Good to learn from your videos!

[@garbodude4365]

I used to pour over your pathfinder stuff back in the day, stoked to see your videos exist!

[@IrisJurgens]

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? A woodchuck would chuck no amount of wood since a woodchuck can’t chuck wood. But if a woodchuck could chuck and would chuck some amount of wood, what amount of wood would a woodchuck chuck? Even if a woodchuck could chuck wood and even if a woodchuck would chuck wood, should a woodchuck chuck wood? A woodchuck should chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood, as long as a woodchuck would chuck wood.

[@Vessekx]

How many nuns could a nunchuck chuck if a nunchuck could chuck nuns?

[@sofademon5758]

This is brilliant. If I were to play this in a campaign I would keep my plans to myself just so I could troll the DM. Level 5: "You're multiclassing into WHAT?"

[@benry007]

I like how these videos make you think of different things that are possible. I now want to make a Triton character that has a shield and throws a returning Trident.

[@brendonfernandez]

I was just thinking I wanted to build a fighter who uses weapons in a non-typical way! And I really like the idea of the artificer class in general. So I really enjoyed this! Thanks!

[@comfortablegrey]

Chris is such an artist with character creation.

[@gilgamesh1973]

I would have considered battlesmith instead of artillerist. The steel defender provides a mount, since you chose kobold. And also allows u to use Int to throw those axe. But that means you start with artificer

[@kolskit]

I think he wanted to use both of the fighting styles he used to not recommend. :) I also think that going artificer first would prioritize going to 5, and then there's the question of whether it's worth it to go fighter at all. You'd likely just end up as an artificer with a feat that chooses to be slightly inferior by going thrown weapons.

[@jsamue12]

Battle smith also gets extra attack at 5, you could just play it strait until then, then multi into fighter

[@raysiegrist]

Possible reason to take fighter to 16/17: more Ability Enhancements. You can shore up Con (who turns down extra HP?).

[@Comicsluvr]

You can also consider other Feats depending on your campaign. Spending lots of time underground? Maybe Dungeon Delver. What kind of armor are you wearing? Heavy Armor Master and Medium Armor Master (depending on if you need to sneak or not) are both viable IMO.

[@selwrynn6702]

I read a book a long time ago (The Bathrobe Knight) and I've always wanted an effective build to throw axes with like the book. thx for this :)

[@joelsasmad]

Wait was he the guy with the spoon?

[@garthodowd6846]

Path of the Giant barbarian : hold my mead.

[@dislikebutton9571]

Look what they need to mimic a fraction of our power

[@peterrasmussen4428]

If you want more damage, you could get the magic initiate feat, picking up Hex. Or fey touched picking up hunter's mark. On any turn where you don't need to move your hex/mark you do a quick toss. This would interfere with the protector cannon though, so it would really depend how many temporary hit points your party is dishing out. If your party has very high damage output this is probably not the way though, as you might find you never get to use that quick toss because you always have to reposition your mark.

[@LibertyMonk]

Why go Magic Initiate for Hex, when it could be from Fey Touched too? Either way, Hex/HM are fine alternatives to Quick Toss, but they're the backup plan and not better than a Quick Toss unless you expect the enemy to survive multiple rounds.

[@peterrasmussen4428]

@@LibertyMonk I do expect my enemies to survive multiple rounds. But maybe that is because of the table I play at. We like very few combats in a day, so they tend to be tough. Honestly fey touched is probably the better choice, I just only thought of fey touched after I had already typed out magic initiate.

[@chopcooey]

there is a point of contention about the thing where you prepare a dash. The PHB about the ready action says you can chose an action in response to a trigger OR move up to your speed in response to it. That means that you can either prepare a dash, or prepare a movement. Because the dash is an action that augments your speed, but does not have movement as a part of that action. So the pet can prepare a movement, or a dash. Only a things like rogue with cunning action can dash and benefit from the whole dash movement as part of a ready action. Everything else can still prepare a movement without a dash.

[@ElManReborn616]

So, we allow forge adept from exploring eberron. It's basically very similar to the battlesmith, except they have no steel defender and an extra infusione dedicated to their weapon which can be used on magical items (bonuses won't stack) and gives the returning property. I'm considering modifying this build as a psy warrior/forge adept. Having both weapon returning would qualify for dual wielding and not relying on limited quick toss

[@wyattweber9983]

This is a fun build and could be considered for an update video since it currently is powered by old kobold shenanigans

[@Grorl]

Just started playing this guy. Coordinated with a buddy, he's playing an alchemist artificer (Giving me one of his 2 active infusions with returning weapon) We're only level 3. I plan on taking 1 warlock level at level 6 Genie Dao, to get the added damage. Thus, at level 6 making the damage with an 18 str, thrown weep style and the dao damage, and the infusion: 4 + 2 + 3 + 1 = 1d6 + 10 before hex and battlemaster maneuvers. So far, at level 3 its nuts. Getting to already play a thrower, such fun.

[@christopherbryan160]

I had a feeling dual wielding throwing weapons would be viable.

[@brettmajeske3525]

You would need two fighting styles to make it viable, which means dipping into ranger.

[@offensivepicture4621]

@@brettmajeske3525 or the fighter initiate feat

[@jacoboverstreet8553]

“You should be able to hit at least once per turn between multiattack and pact tactics” he says. Haha you don’t know my dice. Once rolled four 2s in a row.

[@changesforthebetter7172]

Just had one of the last fights of our two year long game last night and I rolled 16 4s in a row

[@demonkingsparda]

I know that pain. There are nights I don't roll above a 10

[@SyggNielsen-jg3hf]

Throw Grt. Axe how?

[@shanebernier2483]

So, maybe I'm missing something, but Martial Versatility says that you can only do one of the changes each time you get an ASI. Did I miss an errata somewhere already? It' an easy enough fix, just start with quick toss instead of precision attack, but still...

[@spruceschmickington3005]

Fighters get an ASI at 6, which correct me if I'm wrong, is when the switch was made.

[@shanebernier2483]

@@spruceschmickington3005 Yes, that is when the switch was made, but AFAIK you can only switch your fighting style or a maneuver at each ASI, not both.

[@LibertyMonk]

You're right, it's EITHER swap fighting style OR swap maneuver (or neither) RAW, but at the next level Chuck is 7th level fighter and can swap out a maneuver (and also learn 2 more), so even if you don't start with Quick Toss, you're only missing it for one level.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Yep, you are right.

[@spruceschmickington3005]

Serves me right for not reading the initial question properly

[@LibertyMonk]

An alternative to the artificer dip is a Kensei monk split to 6. The down side is it takes a 3x the levels of investment, and your thrown weapon doesn't return. The upside is ALL your thrown weapons (of the types you choose as Kensei weapons) are magical for overcoming resistance, and you get an additional pseudo Quick Toss per monk level assuming Ki-Fueled attacks are allowed (Deft Strike adds 1 martial arts die to an attack at the cost of 1 ki, which triggers Ki-Fueled attack, that allows you to attack with a monk weapon as a bonus action, and your kensei weapons are monk weapons). It also allows for Darts to be slightly better (they'd become 1d6 too) so you could take advantage of Archery and Sharpshooter if you wanted to. The monk variant of Chuck isn't great, but it's viable. It's a greater investment than 2-3 Artificer, and you miss out on extra infusions etc, but you gain a few decent options in Stunning Strike, Focused Aim, etc. 1 additional Quick Toss per monk level isn't nothing, if you don't get many short rests.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I tried to do kensei monk (this was intended as a "break expectations" build), but it didn't work well enough to present IMO.

[@LibertyMonk]

Yeah, I agree that the artificer dip is significantly better. Knowing you checked kensei is really cool though.

[@KorhalKk]

Grease along with Slasher as thrown is a stunlock combo right there.

[@SizzleJ]

Wow I have been trying to figure out how to make a duel/thrown weapon build for a while. This works well nice job!

[@Kiwi9552]

I made a simliar buil lately, but forgot the magical weapon part. I think 2 other ways of solving this are to have an artificer as ally or if you're in a high magic setting get your hand on a weapon that returns similar to returning weapon. Both are outside sources tho. A think I did different is to add crusher aswell and combine throwing axes with throwing hammers. Quck toss also alows to throw nets if the opportunity arises. This would add the possibilites for forced movement and the restrained condition. The hammers would obviously decrease the dps if they are not magical aswell in some fights but I think having the cc is a gain over loosing half the damage on one attack in some cases.

[@Tusitala1967]

For an example of the Quick Toss maneuver, check out the vid for Hawk the Slayer (1980) at 21:36. :-)

[@arsov9885]

I like the concept a lot.

[@SpiderWaffle]

For continuation I might get 4-6 levels of Warlock Genie Dao, and Crusher feat to also do 5ft forced movement once per turn as well as some more damage. You can cast Armor of Agathys/Hellish Rebuke on short rests. You get a lot of extra utility options between innovations, pact, cantrips and the genie features. If you did L2 artificer, you could get L7 Warlock and Protection of the Talisman as probably the best invocation you'd have access to for a L20 character.

[@toshibaDVDplayer]

For a dart build, could the Kensei monk make sense here? V.Human: sharpshooter Kensei's Shot at level 3 would add an additional 1d4 to all ranged attacks as a bonus action (not really useful if two weapon fighting). One with the Blade at level 6 your darts would count as magical, and allow you to deal additional martial arts die as damage for spending ki points. Also by level 6 the damage die of a dart would bump up from a d4 to a d6. If you keep going on with fighter: With 11 levels of fighter you'd get three attacks, the thrown weapon fighting style, and probably battle master for battlefield control. All in all for the cost of your bonus action you could throw three darts a turn that are 1d6+1d4+12+Dex.

[@ihave2cows]

it's a bit disengenuous to apply the damage boost from sharpshooter without also decreasing the total expected damage due to the -5 penalty to the attack roll, but I suppose after Tasha's that monks do have the ability to boost their attack rolls to make up for that.

[@toshibaDVDplayer]

@@ihave2cows That is true. In both cases, the To Hit would be lower, and could be made up by spending ki-points or even using one of the extra fighter ASIs to get the Fighting Initiate feat and grabbing up Archery too. But in all reality, it's not a great build, either in damage, nor utility. Just an interesting thought experiment.

[@arcanerecovery2567]

could using hammers (bludgeoning damage)... and the Dao Genie Warlock to get bludgeoning damage from our proficiency bonus... and the Crusher feat... be the starting elements of some kind of build?

[@fadeleaf845]

A jacked as baator Axe Thrower, who uses tinkered gear and magical turrets next to his trusty axes, and is also a Kobold on top of that - this is what I want to see more of in D&D. Much as I think continuing Wizard is the best option, it is largely on the class' own (way overtuned) merits than doing much with the build and concept we already laid out, so I guess Artificer it is. Although after one level you might nudge your 12 (whereever you placed it) up to 13 for additional multiclass options, although most of them don't offer all that much.

[@samfish2550]

If you wanted to could you combine the thrown weapon fighting style that can also boost your damage by a plus 2 and the one one handed fighting style for another plus 2 damage.

[@lockepersonal]

Two words. Dwarven. Thrower.

[@SpiderWaffle]

I know Chris never uses it, but the pseudo official Blood Hunter actually meshes really well with this concept. The first 2 levels grants a lot, the blood rite fortuitously works with the returning weapon, and you get access to the dualist fighting style. There's also the blood maledict and couple other things. Not to mention Artificer and Blood Hunter are both Int based for magic. If you wanted to go to L3 for a subclass, Mutant would probably give you the most. Obviously Potency for +3 to Str and max Str, maybe Vermillion if you like your blood curse, I think the resistance to slashing/piercing/bludgeoning ones also good since you're often in a area/dungeon where the enemies use similar weapons that are predictably one of the those types, or never one of the those types.

[@Vagran]

@23:11 What an outstanding move!

[@johngleeman8347]

The mad genius has done it!

[@brantheilman8178]

Cool idea, I'm always down with Artificer builds. But I think a Soulknife Rogue would make a pretty good choice for a thrower as well. Right at level 3 they get a d6 throwing weapon that has unlimited ammo, deals psychic damage, lacks the disadvantage past 20 feet, triggers Sneak Attack, and lets you attack with a d4 as a bonus action. Then they get homing strikes to make it easier to hit with them. Seem pretty effective with or without a dip into other classes.

[@curveofsound]

Would be cool if you had a section for recommended items on the build too. There are so many items now a days it would be cool to see ones that synergize with the specific build (instead of the usual cloak of protection, amulet of health, bag of holding, etc.)

[@Zynovus]

Hi Treantmonk, would you consider a build variant for INT fighter throwing Darts? From Artificer Battle Smith, we can use INT replacing STR/DEX for magical weapon attacks. From Fighter Psi Warrior, we can add more dmg with Psionic Strike and possibly knock target prone or 10 ft away with Telekinetic Thrust. Darts are ranged weapon, so we can use Sharpshooting feat to make it more deadly.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I don't know if I will ever do a dart throwing build, but anything is possible.

[@godsamongmen8003]

One way to always have pack tactics working is to put your kobold on a Mastiff. I don't see anything in the rules that would exclude your mount as an ally. If you can spare the feat, maybe take mounted combat so that you can force attacks on your dog to go against yourself.

[@michaelhenman4887]

How would you do this differently if you knew there would be an artificer in the party who could provide a returning weapon from early on (or if you had a guaranteed way to get access to a returning weapon)?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Instead of Artificer, I would go Gloomstalker. The Int would need to be dumped which would allow Dex 13/Wis 13 to qualify.

[@mjr8888]

There is a magic item worn by Jarlaxle where they're a pair of bracers that allow you to draw magical daggers that you have to throw. That can cover the issue of magical items.

[@adamkaris]

Bracer of flying daggers let's you use an action to throw two daggers. Which I *believe* is not going to be the same as "Taking the attack action" so it wouldn't qualify for a lot of bonus action attack things.

[@jeremyparker8098]

Awesome! So happy to watch this vid.

[@micahthomas6600]

Love this build! Definitely want to give it a try.

[@Wanderingsage7]

With the dueling: even if it doesn't stack, you're still going to melee occasionally.

[@theeye8276]

I'd rather have blind fighting for melee personally

[@theeye8276]

Especially since your a kobold

[@ThirtytwoJ]

ive also found throwing darts good low levels and with poison or if you want to sneak attack with less sound or just really dont want bows or stones. kinda wish blowgun was a d3. anyways. counts as a monk weapon. im also partial to handaxes but think they get a bit of the short end of the stick.

[@captainmeeple]

Hi Chirs, I really enjoy your videos, can I please ask: in your video Chuck's AC goes from a 16 (14:28) to an AC of 20 (28:01). I know when you switched to Thrown Weapon Fighting you added a shield but that only gives you +2, where do the other AC points come from, I cant see in your video where that change happens?

[@anykine9375]

My apologies, but I don't understand your baseline chart presented at 10:16. How do you calculate baseline because I thought the usual method is, at Level 5, [(1d6+1d10)x60% + 4] x 2, which is two eldritch blasts. That equals 26 if you assume 100% hit rate. Please reply. Thank you.

[@PedroHISilva]

You already said everything, there is no 100% hit chance.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/sJiTk3SiZryDfbM This is a link to a video that goes through how I calculate average damage as well as the baseline.

[@lord6617]

Optionally could have dropped points into warlock for final few levels, putting your 12 dex into charisma instead, taking a half feat early for a high enough charisma for the multiclass. 3 levels of warlock would give you a pact of the chain familiar, which could be invisible next to your target for 100% pack tactics uptime. It would also give you warlock invocations and 2 spell slots, and finally a spell to concentrate on - hex - which is going to give you an extra 1d6 damage on every hit and allow you to disadvantage strength checks on enemies, which since you are strength based fighter might matter a lot more for escaping or imposing grapples/shoves.

[@bowserjrdm]

I've been toying around with a Thrown Weapon build since Tasha's came out, but instead of using Darts, Axes or Javelins I went for Daggers. I went for mostly Rogue levels and it can work with basically any subclass, including the Assassin even. This build also works without the Artificer infusions and any race is fine. First you wanna take 3 levels into Fighter for Battle Master for the Quick Toss and the Ambush maneuvers. As for your Fighting Style I would recommend either Dueling or Blind Fighting for extra damage or to negate close range disadvantage based on sight. The remaining levels (17) all go into Rogue. I pick the Assassin subclass in this build, but any subclass will do. Now for the main appeal: *We want to apply Sneak Attack twice in a round consistently.* How? With the following steps, in order: 1. At the start of your turn, move within 10 ft. of a target. 2. Use Quick Toss (bonus action) to throw your dagger at the target, which (hopefully) applies Sneak Attack. 3. Move to the target and pick up your dagger (free object interaction). 4. Hold your action to attack _after_ your turn ends. 5. After your turn ends, use your readied action (reaction) to attack the target again and again deal Sneak Attack damage. This works with any Dagger as long as you have Quick Toss available. If you have the Assassin subclass, both these attacks will also auto-crit if the target is surprised and you go first. That's why I recommend the Ambush maneuver as well. If you take 2 Artificer levels for the Returning Weapon infusion the build becomes more smooth, where you can do this from 20 ft. away without having to pick up your dagger but it will hurt your Rogue progression. Unless you have a kind DM or party member Artificer that gives you the infusion without needing to dip.

[@NAS-pi1db]

Hi @treantmonk , I am starting OotA next month and I was so stoked for this build....but by DM is insisting on MotM races. Would you still tale kobold? Or would something else be better in that case?

[@jonathanvanoostveen5309]

When you take fighting initiate at level 10, instead of taking dueling (which is kind of cheesy in my opinion because why would they have an alternative thrown weapon style now if it was the case) you could take superior technique to get another superiority die for more quick tosses if necessary or the other ones that suit your fancy to add more damage!

[@MarshalGeneral]

I would probably take fighter to 12 just for the additional ASI/feat.

[@brettmajeske3525]

The extra feat/ASI seems worth the additional level, but I think going to Art for the rest makes sense.

[@Tillman581]

Hadn't considered this path, I'd been just making fighter/rogues with the psi-blades. Usually 4 lvls of rogue for the ASI. Can't use the weapon feats, but Throwing fighting style and Dualist fighting style I think works nice. Psychic damage on the thrown weapon and I can focus dex for a nice AC and damage. Also has a bit more range and built in off hand option (though a little less damage) can still go the shield rout as well.

[@Tillman581]

@@EricDMMiller I think your meaning the dual wielding feat right? Yeah, wouldn't give the +1 there, but you could use a shield and actually be better off.

[@eliaandreoli7187]

Another option for DEX build throwner weapon can be, six lv of kensei monk. Every knife thrown is magical with plus 1d4 dmg.

[@LibertyMonk]

Oh no, you're not spending your bonus action on a measly 1d4 per attack, you're spending it on a Quick Toss or Deft Strike (Ki) Fueled attack. Plus, you're allowing for darts to become 1d6 weapons so that piercer is... still not great. The 1d4 backup plan is nice to have, but you're more than doubling the number of Quick Toss like effects per short rest. (pre-6, Stunning Strike or Focused Aim are good ways to Ki-Fuel attacks, if you're not just gonna dual wield or Flurry.)

[@theeye8276]

I like soulknife for a dex thrower

[@loginyoass3771]

I wanted to do make a battlesmith eldritch knight with returning weapon. NOTE our table made changing weapons a free action so at lvl 10 5 and 5 I can do 2 attacks then throwing axe then next round throw then switch. Love kobolds by the way my character now has a tribe of them

[@HBStone]

26:30 Crawford says Dueling applies to thrown melee weapons, so if one's DM agrees it would be a slightly better choice than TWF when switching fighting styles at Fighter 6. www.sageadvice.eu/does-the-dueling-style-apply-to-a-thrown-melee-weapon/

[@xavierbiglin1804]

Is Steel Defender to maintain Pack Tactics with your construct pal anything?

[@DracosDiabolis]

Wonder how this build as a concept for a soulknife rogue. Trade out artificer for rogue. May have to crunch some numbers.

[@Venfuin]

dreamed about it for a hundred years, does it exist?

[@tomgymer7719]

Worth noting, if you have another person in your group playing an artificer, and they're willing to spend an infusion giving you a returning weapon, then at that point you might be better off going straight fighter, so that's something to ask your party about if you're interested in something like this. There's also a chance your DM would make a returning weapon available at some point as a reward or loot, but that's obviously less certain, but again, you could ask your DM if that might be something available in the campaign at some point. A really interesting build, if you could get two returning weapons I'd be tempted to keep two weapon fighting, and maybe go a different subclass or even class, but that's definitely not something you can assume will just happen.

[@caleb4836]

Yeah, I can’t imagine DMing for someone going a throwing build and NOT giving them some kind of returning weapon. I usually start my games at level 5, with a magic item. Would probably homebrew a +1 returning axe/dagger/dart/whatever they wanted and give it to them from the get go.

[@BossTripp1]

What about the fighter archetype that creates clones of himself?

[@jwraper1498]

I’d really love to see this build under the new 2024 rules!

[@ChristnThms]

Thank you for pointing out how the hit probability makes the dueling FS pretty solid. I think that is often missed.

[@nicolasvillasecaali7662]

That is because dueling is believed to not work with a weapon that is thrown by some people, as per usual DM interpretation is vital so you should ask your DM first

[@ChristnThms]

@@nicolasvillasecaali7662 nope. None of what you said has anything to do with what I said.

[@nicolasvillasecaali7662]

@@ChristnThms really? How? Please elaborate

[@ChristnThms]

@@nicolasvillasecaali7662 literally, none of the words that you typed have anything to do with the words I typed. I don't know what else there is to say. I mean, I don't think what you said is incorrect. But neither is saying that Tuesday follows Monday, and that has nothing to do with my comment either.

[@nicolasvillasecaali7662]

@@ChristnThms i meant that since people ignore the damage value of dueling for thrown weapons stacking at the moment of compare DPR vs Sharpshooter, combined with these people also ignoring the "to hit" penalty that result in less hits conecting, makes more people tunnel vision in the over value of DPR

[@DuskWolf51]

Of you don't have access to the old kobold and pack tactics, what race would you replace it with?

[@Babidi111]

- is there any way yet to make a decent character based around using a whip? I always was keen to do that but when I started it was made clear to me that it's not really feasible. I was hoping maybe with all the new stuff they have added that maybe its doable now.

[@migthulhu]

I had just been thinking about a character I played, a Half-Orc Champion, and how many goblins I took out with just hand axes.

[@Seelenverheizer]

I wonder if something else for the last levels would be possible.

[@TheRobversion1]

I haven't finished the vid yet but i'm so excited! Been a while since you did a build vid! Plus finally non-caster spotlight! Anyway i'd probably go a different route that what you suggested for later levels. I'd take some gloomstalker for that alpha strike goodness. In fact i'd probably take it earlier than going fighter 11 so i can choose a different race than kobold (custom lineage for more feats perhaps) since gloomstalkers have always on greater invis in darkness anyway for my advantage needs. Plus gives me more useful things to do with my bonus action such as hunters mark and zephyr strike.

[@thefakecat8340]

Im genuinely happy that throwing weapons got more attention. I wsnted to make a ranger who specializes in throwing weapons and his fists. (Roleplaying as a weird outdoor survivor who comes from a eccentric noble family)

[@darthwikkie]

Interesting. I was toying with a Zealot Barbarian/Soulknife build to throw the knives using Strength so you can get rage bonuses and sneak attack damage (Reckless!). You took it a different way, and unsurprisingly it works better.

[@SGRODmaster]

Haven't watched the vid yet, but both Rage and Reckless specify *melee* weapon attacks. So throwing daggers wouldn't give you either benefit right?

[@darthwikkie]

@@SGRODmaster I mentioned it didn't work well. 😎 Throwing the soulknives was meant to give some range at need. The real intent was to have Finesse weapons that could be used with Strength, plus they'd overcome magic resistance. And you got a bonus action from dual wielding them.

[@SGRODmaster]

@@darthwikkie So you mean it doesn't work at all as you described 😆. It's funny, I just watched Talesin on Critical Role try that with his character The Owlbear, and Matt gave it to him. It's a cool idea, but apparently Jeremy Crawford doesn't like fun, so your DM would have to allow it to work.

[@darthwikkie]

@@SGRODmaster My attempts to make it work were unashamedly as a result of watching the exploits of the Darrington Brigade.

[@drewpydrewdrop3841]

I made a thrown weapon build a while ago that was pretty silly but didn't feel that bad. Level 10 one-shot Variant human with 6 lv champ fighter 4th level vengeance paladin for vow of emnity. It seems like taking thrown weapon fighting and dueling you can use both as long as you just throw with one hand. Used light hammers and the crusher feat. Crit fishing for a d4 felt very meme but it was fun to play. Reflavored light hammers to a large bag of bricks Edit: just reached the part where you talk about dueling while typing lol I see you got it down already

[@pawz212]

Now that MMM has been fully released and the kobold used in this video is... not dead, necessarily, but considered a legacy; I am curious. Would this particular build still work with the newer ver of kobold, or heck, any other race?

[@wilesjc0]

I was wondering a similar thing.

[@HammerheadStarcraft]

I’m disappointed that the thrown weapon build involves playing a kobold (that somehow gets a bonus to Str!?) who then assumes advantage on every attack without his downside ever coming into play. I think a Kobold Champion would beat the baseline under the same assumptions.

[@darkestlight660]

Maybe but the damage wouldn't be comparable, champion is THAT bad

[@theonlymatthew.l]

I would consider Warlock for the last few levels if I could meet the multiclass requirements. Personally I'd go with Hexblade (PoB) for goodies like the Hex class ability, the Hex spell, & the shield spell. But, the main reason I would do this is for Eldritch Smite, which can combo really nicely with your Battlemaster Maneuvers. This gives u the most impressive Dart this side of Yondu..

[@normal6483]

Genie Pact could work well also, since they get their proficiency as bonus damage once per round on any attack. It's not as much nova as the Hexblade's curse, but it lasts all day and takes no actions, which is nice. (And if you pick up Dao you can deal bludgeoning *and* the base piercing/slashing of your weapon, allowing you to benefit from Crusher in addition to Piercer or Slasher.)

[@theonlymatthew.l]

@@normal6483 👍

[@Mechinwisdom]

I think 6 rogue... get find familiar that way after 14 You can always throw a light melee weapon to get the sneak attack. Then for other attacks... do whatever

[@patrickhobing8785]

As far as I know, TwoWeapon Fighting applies to thrown weapons as well. Why not take both fighting styles? By 11 Fighter and 2 Artificer, you could have Slasher, Fighting Initiate and +2 Str. That would mean you could do 1d6+8 x3 +1d6 +7 every round (not just on rounds where you have superiority die) at the cost of your bonus action attack being nonmagical (put returning weapon on your main hand axe) and lower AC (no shield)

[@LibertyMonk]

No shield, not being magical, needing to carry extra axes, and taking Fighting Initiate feat are real costs. Adding the ability mod to 1 attack per turn after the first 5 per short rest is good, but is it worth an entire feat, is it better than Dueling's (if it's ruled to work) +2 for all 3+ attacks (3 doesn't include Quick Tosses nor Action Surge when you're at 11)? Maybe for extremely large numbers of rounds between short rests, or before 11th fighter level. I also admit that you do get the 1d6 from the bonus action attack too, so it's a bit disingenuous to compare only the ability bonus to the +2, but you don't need the fighting style to wield or throw a second weapon, though wielding a second weapon turns off Dueling.

[@patrickhobing8785]

@@LibertyMonk in order: No shield is an issue. Totally agree there. Maybe less of an issue if you are a strictly ranged character but still. 3/4 of my attacks would still be magical and I'm willing to accept that downside when I come up against magical creatures if I do better damage overall. In those situations there is nothing preventing us from using 'quick toss'. Carrying extra axes isn't an issue. You have high strength and all rangered characters carry ammo. If it gets to be too huge of an issue maybe try to Craft a 2nd returning axes? And he is already taking fighting initiate as part of this build. Dueling for 3 attacks is +6 damage. TWF is +5 just from off-hand. Quicktoss plus dueling is better nova but TWF is better sustained and with his "long adventuring days" I think it would come out ahead.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I dumped TWF because there was no way to get the 2nd returning weapon influsion.

[@chopcooey]

awesome build. great idea to farm the +2 and +1 's of fighting style and infusions for this. It is tempting to consider INT build with battlesmith route. Canon gives better use of a bonus action and more survivable in a multiclass with low HP. Defender is probably better off dodging than making an attack anyway, and that leaves your bonus action unused except for quick toss. Overall cannon better action economy and survivability with more AC and safer positioning. That's a great use of the strengths of the artillerist subclass since a lot of MC builds that dip in artificer already use the battlesmith like my arcane archer/battlesmith. Overall and great design of action economy. Definitely adding this idea to my list of builds i want to do.

[@Tusitala1967]

Speaking on Indomitable... I allow the save re-roll to be a Con save, no matter what it was initially. Dramatically gritting your way through some sort of ordeal is very "fighter".

[@caleb4836]

I really like this idea. I’ve been trying to think of balanced ways to make that ability not suck. I’ve considered just changing it to work the same way legendary resistances work, but that feels too OP. I think this is an excellent compromise.

[@Fireswiper]

Great vid! I didn’t realise you could ready a dash action to move, I didn’t think you could move at all with a readied action, am I missing something?

[@coleserfass3101]

I think you can’t use movement, but you can hold any action including dash

[@peterrasmussen4428]

My understanding is you are correct, if you ready an action to dash, you get more movement, but no ability to use that movement. If that makes sense.

[@Startoshadows]

You can ready your movement instead. From the rules on ready: "Sometimes you want to get the jump on a foe or wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you can take the Ready action on your turn, which lets you act using your reaction before the start of your next turn. First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it."

[@TreantmonksTemple]

You can't ready your standard movement you get on your turn with a readied action, but you can ready a dash, allowing you to move your speed once.

[@Startoshadows]

@@TreantmonksTemple the PHB section on Ready specifically says you can ready your movement (PHB 193).

[@SigurdBraathen]

Interesting. Now, how would this compare to Barbarian 2 (later 3?) / Fighter X? Both can quite reliably get advantage on attacks. Barbarian takes far less damage, which is sweet in itself but should improve the value of Second Wind, even? Rage does not work with throwing weapons, though. So that's out and with it the +2 damage from Dueling Style, though Rage gets +2 damage from level 1. .. I realize barbarighter wouldn't use thrown weapons and probably not two 1-hand weapons either. Just would be nice to have to compare to Chuck's quite impressive damage graph.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

It would not really be a viable build because you aren't getting magical attacks with the thrown weapons. Artificer 2 is vital to the build.

[@Ashkinda]

Well, at that point you might as well do fighter x barb 2 GWM build for which there are countless varieties of builds for online. These will all do more damage than "chuck" but won't have the thematic and mechanical advantages of being ranged. When "chuck" is already this far over the baseline I don't really see a point in comparing to see if you can get an extra few DPR more as that begins to cross the line from optimizing to powergaming imho

[@LibertyMonk]

Yeah, a Barb/Fighter isn't Chuck. Assuming you get a magic weapon/s to fight with, a barbarian/fighter is going to be tankier and deal more damage than Chuck. But then you're not Chuck anymore. A Great Weapon Master Fighter/Barb is going to deal way way more damage. I don't think Treantmonk has a video on a barb 3 fighter X DPR build, and I'm not sure what AC he uses for his calculations, but D&D:O has calculated DPR for a lot of builds at levels 6, 9, 13 and 17 and his GWM Fightarian is 50-70 at level 13 depending on AC being 13-20, and not using Action Surge.

[@andrewbaronet3208]

So I am curious, do you believe it needs to be a fighter? or have more than one level in fighter because it seems like this could be a fun battlesmith build?

[@andrewbaronet3208]

@Липинский Владимир well 1 in fighter plus the fighting style feat gets you those and heavy armour but the superiority dice are a big deal true, the largest argument for going just artificer is that you get to throw your axes at a lower level

[@TheRobversion1]

@@andrewbaronet3208 the build can throw at early levels. You just need to rearrange progression. Going fighter 1, artificer 2 then back to fighter means you start throwing at level 3.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Fighter works better IMO.

[@andrewbaronet3208]

@@TreantmonksTemple you are most likely right but the battle smith does help with pick tactics as well which is nice

[@matthewlaborde1080]

What do you think about the hobgoblin of the feywild's fortune of the many feature instead of the kobold? That sun debuff is really bad in a lot of campaigns.

[@greygreensentinel]

This is a Kratos build. Start dual wielding short swords (I guess they don’t have chains), then you switch to the returning axe and shield and to top it all off you get Atreus as the little cannon that protects you

[@hardcorehakon]

If you take the 12 in dex and instead put it in charisma, you could after reaching 14th level take 1 more level to get an asi, grab resilient in charisma, then take 1 level of Hexblade at 16th level, now all your attacks will deal extra damage equal to your proficiency modifier, effectively having a permanent version of sharpshooter with no penalty to hit, and you can also curse a target and go crit fishing.

[@jjsaskae]

I made a similar build but I went 11 battlemaster/ 2 artificer/ 3 gloom stalker. I went dex route and used darts with sharpshooter. Starting stats are 8 str, 17 dex, 14 con, 13 int, 13 wis, 9 cha going custom lineage with gunner feat level 1. This actually makes dex 18

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Yeah, this build originally was Fighter/Gloom, but I couldn't make Gloom work once I needed Int for Artificer so I dumped it. I thought of going Monk to get thrown axes work off Dex, but the build wasn't working.

[@kurga9790]

I thought Xbow expert builds were over due to the ruling on a free hand needed to reload.