Wizard vs Sorcerer: Which is better? D&D 5e

[@lolli_popples]

A wizard can regain some spell slots during a short rest *laughs in warlock* A wizard knows 6 spells at first level *cries in warlock*

[@vr4n4]

the duality of warlock

[@boyo5970]

I'm so upset I'm gonna take an nap and get my totally awesome first level spells back

[@tenshiabse]

They still have the most broken af spells like Armor of Agathys or Hunger of Hadar xd. Oh, and of course, laughs in Eldritch Blast.

[@dylanba5251]

One interesting discussion I didn't see what INT skills vs CHA skills - I know its easiest to judge the Combat Pillar since its the majority of the game. Both of these are VERY DM/Campaign dependent. But I think its generally seen that INT skills besides Arcana and Investigation (even that gets its role stepped on by Perception) are heavily underused and seen as useless. CHA skills on the other hand, allow the player to not only interact and shine in the Social Pillar of the game. Sorcerers can do even more with Subtle metamagic allowing some powerful spells to shine in situations where casting spells would be a jail/death sentence for any other caster.

[@jefry6782]

Thats an interesting point. But, as you said its difficult to set a parameter on something with high dependency of what type of campaign we are in. And Chris is making a comparation of both raw classes. I personally use a lot of INT based skills in all my campaigns because i love worldbuilding and those skills are the window to show it. But its true that many dm only use investigation or history once in a while and many other CHA bases skills are often more active and declared by the player

[@predwin1998]

There's also the factor of what skills your party already has covered. Unlike say, Stealth or Athletics, most Cha and Int skills only require one person to succeed. In the case of Cha skills there's also commonly only one player making the check at all, making it more useful to have someone specialized in that, but simultaniously less useful to have multiple players good at the same check. For Int it's not uncommon for multiple players to get a shot at a single check, meaning having someone specialized in it isn't as important since it's more likely at least someone is going to succeed. On the other hand, if multiple players are good at the same skill it's more likely they both get a chance to contribute instead of having to decide who does the talking, making redundancy slightly more useful. Then there's the fact that characters good at Cha skills tend to be far more common than those good at Int skills, so that might balance out the fact that Cha spells *tend to be* more important. Of course all these points remain game/DM dependant, so your mileage may vary, just my two cents on the topic.

[@magonus195]

Subtle Metamagic + Detect Thoughts was so good, my DM started making NPCs immune to it.

[@Kai-K]

Some of my DMs have handicapped int checks, too. I invested a lot to get expertise in them, if I roll a 34 give me some good info! (After letting me roll) "There's no reason you should be able to know this. There are some things your character just doesn't know. Even figuring out that bit of info I gave you is something you shouldn't be able to do." Frustrating.

[@elliotbryant3459]

One thing with charisma skills though which I don't see brought up in conversations like this is that their utilization is incredibly Player dependent. -If you are not a really adept/comfortable/good at improvising in the social pillar then the entire benefit of your casting stat's associated skills are wasted.

[@alexanderabramov2719]

Ah, classic Treantmonk, releasing yet another video to preach to us that Wizard is the best class in the game =)

[@alexanderabramov2719]

Just a heads up, I plan on doing a variation of this statement under every video that even tangentially mentions wizards from now on, it helps the algorithm anyway

[@captainpandabear1422]

It is... at level 17. From 1-10, druid is the king!

[@ekkeking]

@@captainpandabear1422 I would disagree on only at 17th level. I think the wizard and sorcerer have better spell list after lvl 5 when you get access to 3rd lvl spells. Of cource that means not looking at subclasses as the moon druid is just amazing at low levels.

[@anthonynorman7545]

@@captainpandabear1422 level 20 moon druid is pretty nasty!

[@captainpandabear1422]

@@ekkeking Shepherd druid at 5-10 shreds wizard (and anyone else) in raw combat effectiveness. :D

[@Philistine47]

I have not played a Sorcerer myself, but I've played at a number of tables with Sorcerers, as well as with Wizards. Never once have I looked at a Wizard character and thought to myself, _"Man, if only that PC was a Sorcerer instead we'd be in a lot better shape right now!"_

[@johneubank8543]

I've played with wizards that don't stack up ritual spells - don't start every morning casting water breathing and rhory's and so on ritually. I've played w/ wizards who blast too much. I'm not arguing w/ you. Just saying that many players have no clue how to do wiz. Er, and in truth, same for sorc. But until wizards get forcecage, a well-played sorc, by imposing disad on key STs, by transmuting damage into what the monster is vulnerable to (when we fight one w/ a vuln), and by casting spells that can't be counterspelled when fighting a caster - well - the sorc has a LOT going for it. And w/ Clockwork, a sorc can have wall of force - and w/ one feat, they can have amazing versatility in meta magic choices. A well-played sorc in the mid-levels is a speeding freight train.

[@GiftsTrix]

Wizard is a much easier class to play well than Sorcerer. Mostly because they are so very forgiving. If you pick one wrong spell known or use your sorcery points improperly then you're missing so much value. That being said, I've never looked at a wizard and been like "I wish they were a Sorcerer" but I've also never played with a wizard and been like "what the fuck, how was that possible?" They're just the fighter of the caster, they just do their thing, very well... and nothing else. Sorcs can go over the top when needed. Wizards can't but are more reliable.

[@johneubank8543]

@@GiftsTrix you need to start playing AL - adventurer's league. You can rebuild your character now completely between adventures. If you can't, then sure, a person playing sorc who doesn't know stuff could make some bad mistakes. But that's not a reason for all of us to pick one over the other. I'm playing a wiz at the moment - having fun. I like them both.

[@GiftsTrix]

@@johneubank8543 I'm glad you're having fun, at the end of the day that's all that matters. If that type of flexibility and adaptability is your style I'm so glad you have a place to stretch those creative legs. To me, personally, I can't imagine a worse play environment than one where people change their characters between sessions and are limited to PHB+x. I would rather not play then play AL. Different styles for different players.

[@johneubank8543]

@@GiftsTrix you get used to AL - the good side is that you're not stuck w/ poor choices you made in ignorance - that's a blessing

[@Kai-K]

When I was getting into D&D, I thought "Oh, sorcerers don't prepare spells and can't really swap them easily, they must have more spells known than a wizard can prepare." and just assumed that to be the case. Later I played a wizard. I've only played wizard since then. Metamagic is attractive... but it doesn't quite sell me over Metamagic Adept. I never got high enough level on the sorc to twin anything meaningful, maybe I'll look at it again later. Edit: Considering my DMs ban some of the most powerful Wizard spells, maybe I should take a closer look at Sorcerer...

[@Ghorda9]

you get haste at level 5 and twinned phantasmal force or suggestion is not bad either.

[@dudemcfurgusson7179]

Twinned Banishment, Death Ward, Polymorph, Fly, Suggestion, Charm /Dominate / Hold Person, all can turn an unfair fight into a laughable washout. Or you can just do what I do and blow obscene numbers of points on Booming Blade (because fuck the change in function, my group ignores it).

[@Yvädastra]

Sorcerers are my favorite class, thematically, but I'd be a goober to assume WotC didn't take the sorc's mechanics out behind the shed and unload a slug into it in 5e.

[@Razdasoldier]

Agree I like cantrip caster classes (So warlock and sorcerer) because they dont have to sacrifice slots they otherwise need in the ways. My favorite example is that so many people think they are going to be actively casting shield all the time before level 5 and still use all their spells. Now at the same speed an optimized sorcerer can be essentially multi attacking in the same frame while still shielding.

[@johneubank8543]

They kind of fixed sorc w/ clockwork and other tasha's stuff.

[@snazzyfeathers]

@@johneubank8543 It really did help them out a lot but the way the metamagic works and the options provided are good, some even are even fantastic, but the majority aren't really super great. I can't say anything for the way Pathfinder did Sorcerers because I've never played a game, but from what I've heard it was way more hardcore

[@nilsjonsson4446]

As if the Sorcerer wasn't always a worse Wizard. Wasn't Sor in 3.5 a caster with fewer spells, but not having to prep the number of castings, and literally nothing else? They took the Sor unique ability to not have to prep every single casting and gave it to all classes (one of the best decisions they've made imo, can't believe not all casters had that), and took Metamagic from the rest and made it unique to Sor.

[@johneubank8543]

@@snazzyfeathers Because some meta is silly doesn't take away from the ones that are super-effective. Sorc can't be counterspelled. Disad on STs. Cast Hyp Pattern or Fear etc on party but all allies save. These alone, given the 5e action economy, are incredibly good.

[@gregoryfloriolli9031]

Here’s The Big problem: if you don’t want to be killed at 1st level by a goblin throwing a rock at you, you need Mage Armor (if you don’t have armor proficiency some other way) and Shield. And it doesn’t stop there. If you don’t to be killed by elemental damage from traps, spells, or breath weapons then you need Absorb Elements. If you don’t to be killed by a heavy hitter, you need Mirror Image or Blur. If you don’t want to be killed by a mob of enemies, you need Misty Step. If you don’t want to be killed by enemy spell casters, you need Counter Spell. It’s all of these extra spells you need just to survive that are a huge problem for the Sorcerer. The classes in Tasha’s are a huge help for this. Is it enough? I haven’t had the opportunity to play one yet so I’ll be eagerly anticipating Treantmonk’s analysis next week.

[@Ghorda9]

except you don't need to tank and just let your allies take the brunt of it, suggestion on it's own will stop a heavy hitter from coming at you as an example.

[@Skyhigh91100]

Not strictly true. You don’t “need” both mage armor and shield, and you certainly can’t cast them both right at first level anyway as either a wizard or sorcerer. Sorcerer subclasses often have abilities that mimic spells, most notably for this discussion draconian sorcerers who have mage armor always learned and cast without a spell slot. All good sorcerer subclasses either provide additional spells known, have abilities that function as additional spells known, or both.

[@oliverneville5012]

A single level of hexblade helps most of these problems, makes the higher level stuff feel less jarring

[@elgramleebrown5720]

@@Ghorda9 The point is not to tank, it's to survive what wasn't tanked down by the frontliner, accidents happen and when you have d6+conmodhp they can be easily deadly.

[@drewpydrewdrop3841]

Yeah, I played a sorcerer for 6 months from levels 5 to 8. I didn't get to take most of those spells because you only gain 1(fucking ONE!) Spell per level up. I can't comprehend how they thought that big of a disparity was a good idea. I hope in the next edition, either prepared casters don't exist or known casters don't exist

[@GuardianTactician]

The difference in a sorcerer's spells known vs a wizard's spells prepared is why I homebrewed bloodline spells back into 5e. It was a feature in earlier editions where a sorcerer's origin gave them a number of spells that they automatically know. I even tried to fix the issue where a player thinks that their bloodline spells suck, by giving them a list of 5 spells for spell levels 1 through 5 where they can pick one. And I intentionally dipped into spells that a sorcerer ordinarily did not have access to.

[@a_guy_in_orange7230]

IK im 9 months late but I believe thats called Domain Spells and is just a thing on Clerics, NGL im surprised other casters dont get like School Spells or apparently Bloodline is what sorcerers would call theirs.

[@stevenyoung9738]

@@a_guy_in_orange7230 what are you trying to add, he probably knows about domain spells and obviously they won't be called domain because sorcerers don't get powers from worship of a domain

[@petrus9067]

Bloodline spells makes any player of sorcerer more excited and feel more thematic to their class. Sorcerer subclasss are already kinda meh that you get no features from 6 to 14, i see no reason to not have a spell list

[@TheAdditionalPylons]

" A sorcerer casting a 7th level spell + Metamagic STILL isn't Forcecage" ... Lmao, I felt that.

[@RavenWolfStarcraft2]

I generally agree with your base analysis except I feel that Arcane Recovery is a significantly stronger benefit that Sorcerer really misses out on. After playing both in games that tended towards the single encounter (1-3), a situation that should reduce the effectiveness of Arcane Recovery, the benefit at low levels to have so much more casting was huge to me. Even though it may be mostly mental, with a Wizard, I would cast a few levels of spells nonchalantly in the early part of the session because they were effectively completely free. I could keep a bulk of my spell slots for the big first fight (or only fight) and fight at no detriment either way. With a Sorcerer, spending even a single spell felt like a huge cost and, even worse, without the flexibility to choose how to recover slots, spending a couple of first level slots at level 7-9 (a minor cost!) could really reduce my survival without shield (and all the other similar spells). The ability to make spell slots out of sorcery points, even if it was 1:1, is a terrible deal. As you said, without Metamagic, there's no comparison. In my games, I just give Sorcerer Arcane Recovery upfront and never have seen even a slight issue with balance. Sorcerer and Wizard are *the* arcane full casters with 'nothing else'. They should have a similar amount of spell slots.

[@Sangtrone]

Except this is wrong. If you look at the Font of Magic feature purely as a slot recovery tool it is superior to Arcane Recovery in almost every way. The only exception is that Arcane Recovery until level 8 can recover more first-level only slots on odd levels. After level 8 a wizard is limited to eight first-level slots a day until 18th level for one spell. A sorcerer can take more by 10th level. They also don't have to wait for a short rest and can create slots mid combat as needed. When it comes to spell endurance a Sorcerer is simply better, if you don't go nuts on metamagic. Overall I could live with less variety of known spells in exchange for the more flexible snd potentially more slots per day. At the end of the day it's the arbitrarily shittier spell list that kills the sorcerer.

[@hexagonal7499]

@@Sangtrone while it is true that sorcerer's get worse spells, and less of them, the thing that makes them unique is their metamagic. simply put, they can't give up meta magic to cast more decent spells.

[@RavenWolfStarcraft2]

@@Sangtrone I disagree. If you spend all of your points regaining slots, then you're just a worse wizard by far. The number of points is also very limited in the 6-8 encounter per day that the game is designed with. If your thing is twinning haste at mid levels, then you get to do that 2-3 times. Otherwise you're just a worse wizard. Honestly a comment like, "nuts on metamagic" makes me think that you haven't played a sorcerer in a game with the designed number of encounters. Those points go pretty fast and you need them to be better than the wizard at something. Looking at it numerically, the average value of reclaimed sorcerer spell slots, if you spent 100% of your points on it, is 7.05. This relies on the assumption that you get maximum benefit out of your points (i.e. if you need 3 1st level slots, it's a bad trade, but you can't afford getting a 5th even though that's the 'best trade'). This bonus is equal to or worse in lower levels when it matters the most, but it still higher than the average of 5.5 for reclaimed wizard spell slots. But is 1.5 spell slots even worth losing ALL of your metamagic? No of course not. If you 'reverse engineered' that, you'd have about 2.55 spell points, on average, per day to use on spells if you kept the same amount of slots. 2.55 spell points to metamagic is nothing, and again, that's across all levels. It's significantly worse at low levels, when it matters most. It's like great feature that's free=amazing, great feature that's expensive=average to poor to useless. This feature, by and large, is bad. It's still a bonus to have it, it's not useless, but if you use it willy nilly, you're much worse off. Not only that, but if your goal is to produce the highest quantity of highest quality spell slots, then the sorcerer is a poor replacement for a warlock. Sure the sorcerer is able to get some extra mid level slots, but then what? It's using a good spell list with very restrictive spells known and average cantrips. If you want to play a sorcerer because it's cool, then I totally support that and have done so myself, but if your sorcerer does not have spell points and useful metamagic, it is easily, all around worse than wizard. It's not even close.

[@Booklat1]

@@RavenWolfStarcraft2 question, what races have you played sorcerer as? I have this strong feeling that around the time of xanathar and volos wizards tried to mitigate how weak sorcerers felt at lower lvls by releasing the many tieflings and some other "cast spells once a day" races based around CHA. I have no experience playing any of that so that is why I ask.

[@RavenWolfStarcraft2]

@@Booklat1 I have played a Lightfoot Halfling Sorcerer and a Kobold/Variant Race (but skinned as a Kobold) Wizard, among other characters. I personally dislike races with inherent spellcasting, I just find it to be a bit messy when it comes to making the character.

[@danielbeshers1689]

I generally give Sorcerers one of the boosts I give Monks: add the relevant ability modifier to your resource point total, or proficiency to make the impact at lower levels less severe. It's not a perfect solution, because it does make Sorcerer dips a lot more potent, but unless you're dealing with a munchkin who lacks any self-restraint it's a quick, simple tweak that allows Sorcerer characters to burn a little brighter l, especially in lower levels, AKA the levels you actually play.

[@alanschaub147]

I am surprised that you did factor in the value of high Charisma versus high Intelligence.

[@kendrajade6688]

Everything considered is next episode. Charisma vs Intelligence will come up a lot more.

[@drewpydrewdrop3841]

Personally, my table loves intelligence checks more than it sounds like other tables do

[@chaoticwriting6304]

@@drewpydrewdrop3841 as an individual, I prefer intelligence checks more than charisma, with me acting more like a lore sponge... I also enjoy high investigation because I'm a sucker for pretending I'm Sherlock

[@edh9999]

Personally, I prefer the tactical versatility that a wizard provides. If you know that you're going into a social situation, for instance, you can easily switch out a handful of combat spells versus some utility spells. A sorceror can't afford to waste known spells on things they might only need every once in a while.

[@abedrahman4519]

Sorcerer without multiclassing is pretty tough from survivability and spell slot economy perspective (compared to wizard of course). But 3 Hexblade, X Divine Soul sorcerer would give any spellcaster a run for their money...

[@TainakaRicchan]

the compraison of wizard vs sorcerer always proved one thing to me: there is a reason it is not called sorcerers of the coast.... The change from 3rd to fifth that wizards don't have to prepare each individial casting into their spell slots boosted the class dramatically, making them better spontaneous casters then any former spontaneous casters.

[@jonathanpickles2946]

Yeah they are fixing a problem that doesn't exist in D&D any more. I wish they had dropped them and included something else (well Warlord)

[@aldoushuxley5953]

I prefer Sorcerers, esp. the clockwork soul, but I am biased... Sorlocks are also my favourite multiclass :) They make for great blasters, without sacrificing too much of your normal spellcasting

[@seacliff217]

Sorlocks are great. Being able to lob Eldritch Blast while having great concentration is a lot of fun.

[@aldoushuxley5953]

@@seacliff217 yup. Especially with the new eldritch mind invocation giving you advantage on concentration saves. And the synergy of a few Hexblade levels and other classes is insane (though hard to justify narratively). HBC greatly increases damage without concentration, access to shield, medium armor etc.

[@Hyde_Hill]

@@aldoushuxley5953 i am working on an aberrant mind sorcerer with 1 level of hexblade. He is under the mistaken impression that the voice coming from the blade is the same voice that has been in his dreams since childhood. Works fine narratively.

[@aldoushuxley5953]

@@Hyde_Hill that is a very good idea. I always have problems coming up with justifications for the hexblade levels ^^ (I do not play hexblade multiclasses often, but I like to create characters). www.dndbeyond.com/sheet-pdfs/ozymandiuskingofkings_52316529.pdf I made a hexblade - clockwork soul multiclass. Devils too are associated with absolute order. So I hade him a Faustus like figure, an old scientist who made a deal with the devil for power, and then later died and became a devil himself (my race is tiefling). I cast all spells from the contract and that is the object patron of mine. And for the pact, I have a little imp sidekick who keeps taps on me and reports what I do to the archdevil. I think that could make for some interesting drama. I would not be able to lie, and obviously want to regain my freedom, but at the same time (as a morally neutral/ purely egotistical character) would be forced to do evil for my patron (maybe collect souls?) and that would create conflict with the party. Though I have not yet decided on the justification for why the interest of the archdevil and the party would align enough for me to join. Maybe a shared enemy, Idk

[@Naillio]

Thank you as always! I've been following your advice for a year for Wizards and it has opened up a WHOLE new world of play style -- and I love it!

[@kazebaret]

Amazing analysis, and I totally agree: even if Sorcerers are my favourite class, it's very easy to see that their base features are inferior to the wizards' ones. One small correction: also Seeking spell can be used a la Empowered Spell, i.e. you can choose to spend 2 SP after knowing that you missed.

[@bigdream_dreambig]

24:34 FYI, sorcerers actually DO get Wall of Stone [PHB, pg. 209]. (That caught my attention because I recently put it on my list of possible choices for a stonemason sorcerer of mine.)

[@DarthBoberEXMinMaxMunchking]

16:53 slight error, you can also use Seeking Spell in combination with another Metamagic. But, it kinda doesn't matter as I don't value Seeking Spell that highly.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Good catch! Missed that entirely.

[@mategido]

I would like sorcerer way more if they could learn a couple more spells, even with metamagic, I like variety and they don’t get enough in my opinion

[@bosunbones.8815]

Tasha's proved that all Sorcerers could definitely use an additional spells known.... except for the Divine Soul of course.

[@elliotbryant3459]

Agreed. -I think Tasha's might have gone overboard with +10 by level 9, -it kinda feels bad having access to 20 spells at level 9 to the wizards 14 prepared. I would be pretty happy with like +5 or so spells of your choice [that aren't dictated by the subclass or limited to 1-5th level]. -Or like start with 4 known and gain 1 per sorcerer level instead of stalling out at level 12, so you'd have 23 at level 20 but it would be more spread out and create fewer dead levels. Probably add another buff earlier though because this wouldn't contribute much until 3rd tier. -Like being able to swap out 1 spell known per long rest would be really thematic for the intuitive arcane caster.

[@johneubank8543]

I think we're kinda talkin past each other here, heheh. OP, watch TM's clockwork sorc video. Overboard, Elliot? Maybe, but I'll take it!

[@elliotbryant3459]

@@johneubank8543 same lol. I love that Aberrant Mind!

[@reespewa]

I've found tasha's half feats and picking races with spells known can go a long way to improving this. Doesn't help with late game choices, but early/mid-game you can have a respectable number of spell with investment in the right races/feats.

[@ChristnThms]

I know you're all about those concentration saves. But, I think that focus has kind of skewed your view of saves other than CON. Failing a dex save usually costs you some hp. Failing a con save is usually concentration or a status effect. Failing a mental save will frequently REMOVE you from a fight. Of the mental saves, wisdom is probably more common than the other 2 combined. I think this actually plays into the fact that clerics and druids feel more durable than wizards, even if the wizard is making his con saves... loosing control of your character for even a single round of combat (let alone several) feels weak. Additionally, the BEST way to maintain concentration is to not get targeted. I know that in theory the classes are equal here. But I find that Sorc players are often risk takers, and wizard players are often more cautious. Caution is more effective than con save proficiency, war caster, and mirror image combined.

[@jason7719]

i agree, I feel to many people make a big deal about proficiency in con saves with sorcerers because of concentration but totally ignore the prof in wis saves for wizards. Having a high con save as you said is nice it helps from dropping concentration but.. losing control of your character entirely because of a wis save? "sorry I just twin hasted the enemy guys"

[@TreantmonksTemple]

If I make a Sorcerer, I will likely find room for resilient Wisdom at some point.

[@ChristnThms]

@@TreantmonksTemple ROFL, well played. I'm a little disappointed in myself for not anticipating that.

[@TwinSteel]

Sounds like we just need to give subclass specific spells to to sorcerers (like domain spells for clerics) and equalize the spell lists, and we’ll have a much closer race

[@TreantmonksTemple]

We do indeed.

[@Ghorda9]

or instead of subclass spells, have them pick an extended spells list based on what element/school they want to specialise in.

[@TwinSteel]

@@Ghorda9 I haven’t personally done it, but house-ruling subclasses for sorcerers based on spell school, like a wizard, might be interesting - is that what you mean? I think just adding some of the more obvious spells to the sorcerer list (e.g., forcecage as mentioned in the video) would be reasonable - seems like they were omitted intentionally, but as for why, I don’t understand - they are less likely to memorize utility spells than a wizard, but combat spells seem to be very clearly in their wheelhouse - unfortunately I have an infatuation with 3e, 3.5 and PF, so I find myself grumbling about “the good old days” when sorcerers didn’t have the issue of a different class spell list… double unfortunately, wizards were even more OP then, so I’ve got no leg to stand on

[@Ghorda9]

@@TwinSteel i mean as a separate choice to go along with a subclass.

[@TwinSteel]

@@Ghorda9 interesting - so, one might be a draconic sorcerer of the evocation school - reminds me of how warlocks choose a patron/subclass (e.g., fiend) and a pact (e.g., blade) - such a choice could also go along with a new related class ability - ideally it would be different from the wizard subclass ability, maybe a meta magic feature (e.g., meta magic costs less for that school?) - all that said, if one did implement this, it might be hard to keep the class coherent between both heritage and school, and it may go too far, tipping the scales too much toward sorcerer

[@mccord529]

I think you underrate (just a bit) the wizard's Level 18 ability; it does sort of depend on what spells you choose. Shield and Invisibility at will, for example? Honestly, this is probably the best combo, but things like disguise self, darkness, darkvision, blur or mirror image, expeditious retreat, are all spells that don't really gain benefits from being up cast and are good defense or utility.

[@borg286]

The efficiency of converting spell slots into sorcery points is best at 5th level slots, then 2nd level spells. While those are in short supply, a Spell Points variant can always use the most efficient trade. This lets them adapt to short days way more than a wizard can.

[@aimerw]

Spell Point variant is how Sorcerers should have worked by default. It helps balance them while ironically making them more unique.

[@stefanneaga]

The conclusion of the next video: divine soul is broken

[@clintjackson729]

Lol, I was thinking "what about Divine Soul getting Cleric spells?" And then you covered it in the last minute by saying that video is coming soon. I 100% agree with you about everything in the video. It'll be interesting to see Clockwork's adv/disadv and Divine Soul's spell list take on the Wizard's Chronurgy...

[@8684LYFE]

I think Clockwork and Divine Soul subclasses are incredibly strong but well designed, whereas Chronurgy is broken material (double concentration, lots of infinite power loops, etc). Chronurgy is stronger but it is not better - it's actually just poorly tested and designed.

[@Booklat1]

@@8684LYFE Chronurgy still has powerful features even if you take out the broken stuff. Idk how they thougt that was going to be ok I wanna like divine soul but it's not as good as the newer subclasses

[@keaering5183]

@@Booklat1 Yeah I agree Divine soul is good but is blown out of the water by Clockwork and Aberrant soul.

[@muddlewait8844]

It *infuriates* me that sorcerers don’t get Find Familiar, Maze and Wall of Force on their spell lists.

[@Ghorda9]

for me it's programmed illusion.

[@Mephil]

Or true polymorph. Draconic sorcerers can never turn into dragons

[@SybilantSquid]

@@Mephil Shapechange. They still can. Just... Not permanently...

[@Mephil]

@@SybilantSquid Shapechange is druid and wizard only, at least do a miniscule amount of research before you open your mouth.

[@YT_LeahStuff]

@@SybilantSquid How? Sorcerers don't get shapechange.

[@okboomer2473]

24:36 sorcerers actually do get wall of stone now which, while probably not as good as wall of force, can kinda fill a similar role along with the whole it can be permanent utility

[@TreantmonksTemple]

When did they get Wall of Stone? Are you thinking about Flesh to Stone? They got that in Tasha's, but not Wall of Stone.

[@dtsolley]

When I look at the sorcerer spell list in DnD Beyond, I see that they get Wall of Stone. I don’t own physical copies of the rule books, but the digital copy of the php says that sorcerers get Wall of Stone. I hope this isn’t a mistake by DnD Beyond

[@okboomer2473]

Yeah, that and 5e tools as well as the wiki

[@okboomer2473]

Was it in there? I’m kind of curious now

[@TreantmonksTemple]

@@okboomer2473 Looking it up, they've always had it, since the PHB. Not sure why I didn't remember that.

[@jonathanroberts8855]

oh man, the treantmonk? i've been using your 12 year old build guide for pathfinder wizards for about 3 years now since picking up pathfinder, i really appreciate the effort youve put into your guides (i've also scoured the druid and monk guides as well). glad i found you have a youtube channel.

[@Centaur255]

This was an incredible breakdown - very thorough, very fair, and I'm really looking forward to seeing the next installment!

[@philosopherhobbs]

Awesome video and near perfect analysis. Ignoring CHA for social situations wasn't great. I imagine that the two new sorcerer sub-classes are going to be high up on the ranking of all sub-classes as they fix multiple issues noted here, such as missing out on some powerful spells and not having as many spells.

[@Creshex8]

All sorcerer subclasses should get an expanded spell list like the aberrant mind subclass. The list of known spells is just way too small.

[@leodouskyron5671]

Two smallish points - Sorcerers do get more spells as part of origins (Xan on) and they get most substantial features (depending on school) as a general point. I expect that will come up soon but I agree that the sorcerers need more spells. Same time, the party rogue can’t steal your spell book and that counts for something (lol)

[@adamkaris]

Having your spellbook stolen just means you can't change the spells you have prepared for the day. That rogue isn't going to have a very long shelf life after that.

[@leodouskyron5671]

@@sharkforce8147 Actually. TM did feature a spell comparison. Also, some of those features like Dragon Sorcerer ac 13 (Mage Armor) are effectively an always-on spell or in the case of the Shadow Sorcerer's Hound of Ill Omen- a meta magic effect. With the Permanency spell not currently part of the game, this makes a difference when comparing the two classes. I make no representation about if that is worth it or not, just that strictly speaking the Sorcerer has more spells than what is on the spell list available even if choosing it is part of choosing the class. As I said a minor point.

[@BathtubGoat]

There is another bonus to sorceror: spell slot flexibility. The ability to convert slots to points and vice versa gives sorceror the unique ability to have slots of their priority. These stay until a long rest. And, at 6th level and 8th level, the sorceror can also create 4th/5th slots one level before normal, kinda fun for upcasting. If there is a signature spell character, the sorceror is the best candidate, because you could literally convert all of your slots into the slot of your choice. At 5th level, you could sacrifice all 1st and 2nd slots for extra 3rd level slots and cast more 3rd levels than anyone else at 5th level, ect. Have a metamagic spell combo you love? Well congratulations, you can do that combo far more often instead of what the level mandates. I had a sorceror illusionist, and the ability to subtly cast major image so many times was a blast. I don't think this bumps them above wizards, but it's the reason I play them. Never up cast a spell for no reason, and always have an option provided your total resource isn't tapped out

[@PowderKeg3838]

I let sorcerers use the spell point system and it seems to balance it out and lets a player feel like something different than any other caster. It works well with the sorcerer system and lets them cast more 3rd through 5th level spells and evens out the arcane recovery of a wizard. It should have been a class feature of the sorcerer in my opinion. I feel like it was but they got spooked and made it an optional DMG rule.

[@TheFirstLanx]

Having myself played, DMed and played with both, I feel that this analysis overvalues metamagic considerably. My reasoning for this is that an effective class needs to be able to do multiple things. It needs to be able to stay alive, move about, do damage and have control options. After taking a few of the must have spells like shield and a blast, sorcerers have always been left with only a *very* narrow selection of spells to usefully use their metamagic on, and as such they've almost always been one-trick-ponies with regards to the metamagic. It's a heck of a lot of eggs to put in one basket when the sole advantage you have over the wizard is that you can occasionally use Tasha's Hideous Laughter on two targets instead of one. If sorcerers had a more expansive selection of spells known, I'd be right there with you and find metamagic fantastic. But they don't. Heck, I've played games where the sorcerer's quickened magic is house-ruled to let you cast multiple levelled spells on a turn and it still doesn't quite even things out, even as a blaster at peak blasting levels.

[@andrewpeli9019]

Awesome breakdown! Sorcs are awesome blasters, but they have always felt lack luster in every other aspect except dealing damage in the first couple combats of the day. This does a great job of explaining why.

[@saprone8885]

When I started dnd5 I tried out different classes and didn’t enjoy them that much. Then I found your channel and watched your guides about the wizard. From that moment I only could play a wizard and still have a blast with it. It feels so great to land that important AoE to make a difficult fight easy. My favourite spell is Hypnotic Pattern, because it always had a dramatic impact. I am playing a Diviner and using Portent rolls in key moments is a lot of fun.

[@lancehetfield6396]

Awesome video, i was thinking about trying it sorcerer for the first time. And yeah, its cool for flavor and social interactions.

[@migueldelmazo5244]

I'm so old that Wu Jen is my favorite caster. :)

[@MisterMomus]

I'm surprised you only peripherally mentioned one of the wizard's biggest advantages in terms of versatility through the spellbook mechanic: the ability to add to their spellbook without leveling by simply copying spells from scrolls or other spellbooks. You mentioned that there is no theoretical limit on how many spells the spellbook can hold, but with the ability to copy spells, this means that in principle, the wizard could have access to EVERY wizard spell, switching them out daily as needed. How valuable this is will of course depend on your DM. But in a high magic setting where you simply buy scrolls at the magic shop in any decent sized city, this is a significant benefit. Also, this adds a sort of alternate system of advancement for the wizard that can be a lot of fun. I don't think any other class can do something analogous, adding abilities without leveling. Plus, delving into forgotten libraries to find forgotten lore makes for solid adventure hooks.

[@EnderraphaXX]

Great video! And btw, a lv 20 sorcerer can spam consecutive short rests and create a lot of lv 1 to 5 slots to choose from by either going through the 10/15/20/... CON saves or by using greater restoration (divine soul or ally) (just like with warlock multiclass) A little demonstration: 8 consecutive short rests instead of long resting = 32 spent recovery points = from (+16 lv 1 spell slots) to (+4 lv 5 spell slots with 4 extra sorcery points remaining). If a sorcerer spends the entire day doing short rests, he can generate 4 times that amount of spell slots, so by using Greater Restoration, eventually the bbeg/long downtime lv 20 sorcerer will have infinite spell slots from lv 1-5, and that also means infinite sorcery points for metamagic, meaning that his spells will always be more powerful than a wizard's and he will last way longer. But in my personal opinion, by that point the lv 20 divination wizard from the same campaign would just have infinite money from simulacrum using wish or gambling with portent + portent from the simulacrum, meaning that he could just long rest his way to victory and engage the sorcerer with good portent numbers to force fails or hire an army of adventurers with the money, and he would also have infinite spells from any level from spell scrolls that he could create, so yea.

[@jefftheless]

I realize that this video is purely about spell casting, but the fact that Sorcerers are Charisma based, and therefore able to be a face if needed, is possibly an improvement over Int dependent Wizards. Though I do think often the value to a DM of having and Int character in the party to whom you can give world and campaign info to, is underestimated by the MinMax community.

[@elliotbryant3459]

one thing with charisma skills though which I don't see brought up in conversations like this is that their utilization is incredibly Player dependent. -If you are not a really adept/comfortable/good at improvising in the social pillar then the entire benefit of your casting stat's associated skills are wasted.

[@michaelbalcom5233]

I don't really think that matters overall simply because you can't tell what each DM is going to prioritize being a face can be useless if a DM is very light on social encounters likewise history and arcana check could come up every session or once in a leap year.

[@jason7719]

as some others have said this is really hard to gauge and super dm dependant, for instance in our campaigns investigation comes up a TON, and our group being wizardless has struggled here without it, but persuasion checks have also still been really important so it's not like my sorcerer's high cha isn't also helping.

[@DougAdams]

In addition to being DM-dependent, it is also very party-dependent. It is an uncommon party that doesn't have a Paladin, Warlock, or Bard, at least in my experience. If in session zero, none of the rest of the group was playing a CHA-based class I might be tempted to consider a Sorcerer over a Wizard.

[@douglascheesman]

Aberrant mind Sorcerer has been a fun class/subclass to play. But I bet a Wizard in the right campaign is much stronger.

[@Arbraxius]

Everything is better in "the right campaign".

[@borg286]

Here is one to give your wizard a run for its money: forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?625704-Aberrant-Mind-Sorlock-A-Renaissance-Man

[@epicazeroth]

Honestly the weakest part of Sorcerer spellcasting imho is that the spell list is just Wizard But Worse. Literally any good Sorc-only spells would be a huge boon. My hot take is Wish should be Sorc-only.

[@aldoushuxley5953]

imo wish should be warlock only (hot take). I would give sorcerers some of the elemental spells, stuff like meteor swarm, as exclusives

[@aldoushuxley5953]

though I would like it more, if you just had more sorcery points. Imo they should be doubled. Then, no exclusive spells are needed, and you can actually use your signature feature somewhat often

[@jakestavinsky3480]

Honestly, Sorc just needed more shit like Chaos Bolt. 3.5e had them feel very distinct, despite having the same spell list. 5e just hampers Sorcs in 50 different places. The Sorc has less exclusive spells than ANY caster class- including the 1/2 casters

[@evilspongebob6233]

Woah woah woah. I do not want wish to be sorc-only. Nope

[@juanpauloarcillas7600]

In general, the sorcerer spell list feels incredibly arbitrary and nonsensical. I mean, there are spell that don't fit the class (like teleportation circle) and there are spell that should be accessible to them (like shapechange).

[@cyanide7270]

All the more weight to the argument that WotC are biased. Like i get it, the Sorcerer can do some fun shit with their spells (am playing one currently) but in EVERY aspect outside of metamagic, the Wizard can do everything the Sorcerer can do, but better, and without any restrictions. People make fun that a Wizard dies of 1d4 damage all the time, but fact is theyre no less squishy than a Sorcerer is either, so that hardly a balancer. Wizards need some restrictions, or other casters need a few extra benefits to make them as viable as a Wizard.

[@Sporrik]

A well-played wizard is the tankiest class in the game

[@Booklat1]

@@Sporrik my mark of warding abjurer wizard agrees. Idk about other casters needing more buffs to get on pair with wizards. Druids and clerics are more than fine, warlocks do their own thing and bards are support by nature (and pretty good at that). Sorcerers are the ones historically getting shat on. Aberrant mind is a monster though and clockwork is not weak either so they're probably finding ways to give the new sorcerer subclasses a bit more than A SINGLE extra spell like they used too

[@braunbekmaxim5821]

@@Sporrik , that's so true! Well, maybe not the tankiest, but can definitely perform defensively way better than all the memes would suggest. I remember fondly all the times I would say "I'll tank for you here" to my party's Rogue whenever he would try to bite too much. Mix decent DEX to AC, Mage Armor, Mirror Image, False Life, and the fact that some people remember that Dodge action is a thing, and a Wizard can prevent a few hits that were destined for the glass cannon who forgot that such cannons shouldn't stay long in melee. And do that without dying themselves.

[@ihave2cows]

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one, boss. Druids have an incredible and *unique* spell list, on top of having one of the most game-breaking features that exists in the game, wildshape. Cleric, similarly, has a very powerful spell list. It's not really unique anymore, thanks to things like divine sorcerer, but it doesn't change the fact that they have access to some very powerful buff and healing spells that the arcane spellcasters don't normally get. And they can prepare litteraly anything the class has to offer at the start of the day. On TOP of that, they get proficiency with medium armor, unless they're one of the 10 subclasses that gets heavy armor, ritual casting, channel divinities, and some really absurdly powerful subclasses that can potentially double the party's healing or damage. Bards are dirty cheaters that break the game when played by someone that's savvy to each caster's spell list, and at their lowest, are very forgiving to the new player with class features that are just generally very powerful (bardic inspiration, cutting words) having some armor and a d8 hit die instead of none and a d6, and are tied for having the most skill proficiencies in the game with rogue, as well as being one of the only classes that gets expertise, and the only class to have a class feature that straight up increases the power of every single ability check they make (which also makes them the only class by base that gets better initiative rolls than normal, as well as better counterspells and dispel magic checks.) They aren't the single best caster at any one specific thing, but they're the second-best at pretty much everything.

[@keaering5183]

It seems like Wotc decided to feat tax the older sorcerer subclasses rather then just adding a few thematic spells known to each like clockwork soul or aberrant mind did. A small bump to sorcery points and like 5 more spells known over the course of the sorcerers career is all it would take really.

[@warlordsquerk5338]

I like the sound of additional spells known. I might even go for +10 instead of +5 over the career and waive the sorcery points - tho I wouldn't mind the additional sorcery points even with that if I was given it :P

[@darthwikkie]

Your Clockwork Soul build was top notch. Sorcerers also make great multiclass options for Paladins, Warlocks, and Bards due to all using Charisma. Beyond that, I greatly prefer the versatility (Both from spells available and ritual casting) that Wizards offer which you so adeptly point out in this video.

[@bryankia]

I have to agree with this evaluation. I think con saving throws is a much bigger deal than you gave it. I also think the sorcerers Innate ability to do devastating amounts of damage in HtH should have been added here. With all that said. In the end you nailed it. 7th level spells without forcecage really suck!

[@Kronosxviii1]

And don't forget the 20th level sorc class feature just requires a 2 level warlock dip to achieve. You lose 1 6th and 7th level spell slot, but you gain short rest spam, the best cantrip in the game that scales with charisma, +3 spells known, +2 cantrips. And you get to choose when you want to go for that combo at any point in your career. Campaign only going to 10th level? Dip early for high usage or 5th level so you have fireball/counterspell.

[@khazidhea790]

8:20 Only a minor point as I don't think I've ever seen preparation time factored in in play, but I read the preparing times for the wizard differently. "You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of wizard spells requires time spent studying your spell book and memorising the incantations and gestures you must make to cast the spell: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list". With the focus on 'list' changing, not so much 'spells' I'm picking up that if you change 1 spell you've essentially changed the 'list', so if the change was a 1st level spell the memorisation time isn't 1 minute, but maybe 2 hours (at level 20). (I'd never DM it that way, just how I read it)

[@anonanonymous1988]

One nice thing about sorcerers is the draconic bloodline allowing you to start with an AC of 16. It may seem like a small thing but in the long run it helps keep you up when a wizard would often get put down hard (kobolds with slings from personal experience).

[@reespewa]

I've gotten a lot of mileage out of burning spell slots to gain more sorcery points at low levels. Probably only works on high value-point metamagics though: the use case I often have is twinning a cantrip can often be more valuable than using a 1st level spell slot once I'm concentrating on a spell (especially when they become boosted at 5th level, a twinned 2d10 firebolt is definitely above the average power of 1st level spells (inflict wounds is 3d10 with a single melee spell attack roll). Or twinning spells gained through other means like Vicious Mockery can be very helpful. Similarly a use once/day spell gained through a feat like shadow/fey touched can go a lot further when twinned so again justifies the trade-in of a first level spell slot. Overall using spell slots for sorcery points even at low levels allows the sorcerer the options of being more powerful at the cost of burning resources quicker, which benefits players who are very good at resource management.

[@dustinsmith2021]

I one round depending on who goes first and at what level, the sorcerer, if we are talking pvp. But pvp in D&D is like that for every class.

[@Leydenification]

I look forward to the next video - the aberrant mind and clockwork sorcerers were a huge game changer for the sorcerer class I'm interested to see the numbers regarding how they stack up. As far as RP potential I base if I play sorcerer or wizard on the DM. A new/inexperienced DM or a DM who isn't heavily invested in world building I play sorcerer as there will always be NPCs to persuade, deceive, etc. But an experienced DM that loves world building really appreciates a player who can do a history check to get that sweet sweet lore they were up until 2am writing. Also, a lot of popular classes run on charisma so odds are you have multiple party members who could be the face but Int gets dumped a lot of the time.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

You will see the numbers in the next vid!

[@salihnu]

Thank you for your analysis and great video!

[@TreantmonksTemple]

My pleasure!

[@defensivekobra3873]

Also Sorcerous Restoration can be used for the same warlock multiclass schenanigans but in a way that is less legally dubious rules-wise and that still allows you to keep all other great sorcerer class features. A sorcerer who manages to do fine without sleep could spend weeks of time doing nothing but short rests in order to slowly accumulate tens or hundreds of 5th level spell slots if they so wanted to

[@jiiaga5017]

Depends on whether you allow the Tasha's subclasses or feats. If you only take into account the tasha's subclasses, its probably break even or sorcerer. If you take into account all sorcerers compared to all wizards, wizards lap the field. Flexibility rules everything, and in most cases being able to prepare the right spells for the situation you find yourselves in with the wizard puts you ahead of the sorcerer - where metamagic might make you slightly more flexible with some spells, but metamagic doesn't make 1 spell into another spell.

[@Joemantler]

Some random thoughts about Sorcerers, Wizards, and Spells: 1) I'd like to see Sorcerer Spells have no Material Components, since, effectively, the Material Component is their body (or mind, or soul, or whatever). This would mean they never get the bestest spells, because you couldnt limit them with a GP cost or rare items. But that is how they should work. 2) Barring the "No Material Component" option, they should be able to sacrifice themselves to substitute for it. A level of Exhaustion, or HPs based on the cost of the Material Component or Spell Level, for two examples. 3) I think D&D is missing something these days. It seemed to me that Spells and Spell Books used to be highly sought after by Wizards. Wasnt there a time in the Dragonlance novels where Raistlin was very excited to find the books of another caster, and spent hours pouring over them? I wouldnt mind seeing a campaign where Spells and Books were hard to find. Whole quests to retrieve them, and always the possibility that some other Wizard might try to assassinate you for your Books. Maybe I regret that the D&D magic system feels very _sanitized_ these days. Casting a spell feels just like swinging a sword, or shooting a bow.

[@nerfherder5211]

The lack of many spells on sorcerer lists is crazy. Ritual casting is absolutely crucial to being the old man that can solve all problems with rituals. At any wizard not building up his spell book properly isn't a real wizard. Divine Soul has access to cleric whch is great. The two tasha classes somewhat makes up for this too. But I still prefer sorcerer. And meta-magic is a blast, literally. And it's a much beter multiclass option and has better synergies with it's shared charisma classes. No arguing about that. Artificer is great but it's just a cheesy dip for some armor mostly.

[@metalheadisme8389]

To be fair though, multi class capability and having Charisma for a casting stat are big reasons why one may want to be a sorcerer over a wizard. The options with sorcerers, warlocks, bards, and paladins are just so much fun. Plus you get the social RP benefits of high CHA. Also, if you thought quickened spell was “meh” as a meta magic, try it after taking a 2-3 level dip in hexblade warlock. Cast a spell plus launch some eldritch blasts on the same turn for 2 sorcery points? Don't mind if I do! Plus you can recharge those sorcery points from you warlock slots that come back on short rest. Also, twinned spell is pretty sweet when you choose a divine soul sorcerer. Twinned healing word can bring the party back from the brink in a tough spot and twinned guiding bolts are fun at low levels. Twinned inflict wounds was fun when some bad guys thought they got a good ambush in. 😂 Also, transmute metamagic is slightly underrated in my opinion, especially when paired with fireball. Being able to change the elemental damage on fireball is quite fun and useful. The Tasha’s subclasses are both awesome and make progress in fixing the spells known deficiency. They also bring their own cool, unique abilities. Basically, both wizard and sorcerer are awesome. It just depends on how you want to play and what aspects of playing you find the most fun. Wizards are always going to be better at having a spell for every situation. Sorcerers are always going to be more flexible at multiclassing with better burst damage capability.

[@bengaming3649]

The biggest issue with a Wizard in my opinion is they are spoiled for choice. You have some many situational spells that you "may" need that you end up not having enough spells that you "do" need. With a Sorcerer, you tend to be very careful with your spell selection and focus on creating a play style that works very well with that set of spells. A prime example would be lets say fireball and lightning bolt. If a wizard has 4 slots for those levels of spells, often he might slot in maybe 1 Lightning Bolt, 2 Fireballs and a couple utility spells so if he runs into a fire resistance enemy, well he has only got 1 Lightning Bolt and he has shot his wad. Meanwhile a Sorcerer with those spells is able to cast up to 4 of either spell as needed. To me this is a pretty huge advantage for a Sorcerer. Yes you give up access to a lot of spells, but even with the lesser selection, you tend to have access to everything you need to be effective and within however you specialize yourself, your much more effective than a Wizard.

[@mattdespard6576]

I don't understand the logic, from a game design or lore perspective, of giving the class with more limited spells known an inferior spell list to boot. If anything, it should be the sorcerer that gets powerful and unique spells that the wizard doesnt have access to, reflecting their innate and personal approach to spellcasting.

[@AGrumpyPanda]

Back in 3.5/Pathfinder 1e, sorcerers and wizards had the same spell list to choose from, and the tradeoff was that while sorcerers knew less spells they could cast more spells per day. The argument between sorcerer and wizard was more about are you trying to achieve a specific theme or gimmick that sorcerer can make stronger, or do you want to be a better overall caster.

[@mattdespard6576]

I don't see what that has to do with sorcerers in 5e. Sorcerers no longer get more casts per day than wizards, and their spell list is objectively weaker.

[@rommellamadrid6794]

@@AGrumpyPanda its still the effect here. IMO Sorcerers are best at being good at 1-2 things still. if you build to be really good at certain situations. having Charisma as a primary stat is more useful in modern D&D than Intellegence. especially since the sorcerer can then play a face. go variant human and grab expertise in persuasion and your on par with the bard, with meta magic.

[@AGrumpyPanda]

@@mattdespard6576 In previous editions there was a more fair balance, WotC in their desire to strip back the game as much as possible broke that.

[@AGrumpyPanda]

To put it another way, I agree with you entirely because the way they used to do it was better.

[@yaboyz5611]

One aspect that sorcerers have that you may or may not have overlooked, or just didn’t include in this video, is that… Sorcerers want to stack their charisma, and stacking charisma is better skill-wise meaning that your performance, intimidation, and deception are gonna be better than your nature, arcana, and investigation. Because they do this, it opens up some more options with how to distribute stats given that intelligence is the most common dump stat.

[@TheMichaellathrop]

There is also the scaling spell casting foci in Tasha's wizards get 1 bonus spell level to their arcane recovery, where as sorcerers get an extra 5 meta-magic points on a short rest (and it is not limited to once per long rest)

[@elliotbryant3459]

Sorcerer’s Bloodwell vial is limited to one sorcery point restoration recharging at dawn

[@guyfromdubai]

Thanks to your great Wizard guide I'm having a blast playing the GOD Wizard. My team love when I pump them up or make their lives on the battlefield easier I dont even mind that I haven't thrown a fireball! Thank you for opening my mind to this amazing class

[@Battleguild]

For my games: Each spell in a Wizard's Spellbook consumes a number of pages equal to the recorded spell's level. For example, Fireball a 3rd level spell, will require 3 pages to record the spell.

[@ruggerosimonetta2885]

Divine soul twinned guiding bolt and spirit weapon for offense, twinned distant cure wounds for healing, distant counterspell for control, twinned haste for buff, subtle whatever spell off combat for face (or in combat to not be counterspelled with the right spells)

[@tomgymer7719]

A few things I think are important for Sorcerer vs Wizard discussions, some of which have already been mentioned. First is the fact that Cha is arguably a better primary stat than Int, with the skills associated and how common and useful they are. On spell selection, while sorcerer's do miss out on some good spells, I don't feel they lack many that they really need, the versatility is good, but you don't need to double up much on useful spells. One fifth level spell that uses concentration is probably enough for example. However, the last point is to me the main one in favour of sorcerers, and not one I see mentioned already, and that's party composition. As you said, Sorcerer's metamagic is unique, but wizards rituals and spell selections mostly aren't. And yes it's good to have some redundancy, but in most circumstances, if it's a ritual clerics or druids can get, that's enough, you don't need it available to your arcane caster. Same with a lot of utility spells, one is often enough. So, depending on party compositions, say, a bard, cleric, fighter, and then either a wizard or sorcerer, the wizard will find a lot of their usefulness is fulfilled equally well by other members of the party, whereas the sorcerer will be uniquely good at things. And that is an important point. Because sure, if your party only has one spellcaster, utility and versatility is great for them, and then a wizard is best. But most parties aren't like that, and then, being the best at what you're specialised in is probably more useful.

[@tomgymer7719]

@@sharkforce8147 There are definitely a few great spells that sorcerers lack that wizards get, but it's really not that many, and you can usually make do with another spell. But also, I didn't say one concentration spell of each level, I specifically said 5th level because that's a high level slot you don't want to use too often, and you want it to be something big. Also, even if I had meant one concentration spell per level, most levels of sorcerer absolutely have enough spells known to still have non concentration options. Now it is absolutely good to have spells that cover different bases, but I think you massively overstate things. You don't necessarily want any aoe spells, let alone need ones for different elements. And targeting multiple saves is good, but you don't need all of them, especially if you can target weaker saves, which sorcerers do have spells that can do so. Also, and this is perhaps most important, you can get plenty of variety of spells across different levels. You don't need 4th level spells to cover everything, if your 3rd level spells can cover some of it, or 2nd level, or 1st, or whatever. Overall, you can cover most problems with a relatively small number of spells. Now, the versatility is always helpful, but I don't buy that it's that helpful. And lastly, I do not believe any of the wizard subclasses match up to metamagic, in fact I would say in general the non specialised wizard subclasses from later books are better. But even saying they do, sorcerers get some amazing subclasses, including ones which absolutely deal with the problems of limited spell selection. Whereas no Wizard gets metamagic.

[@hopeforescape884]

I even think the bard is both a better caster and a face than the sorcerer, they can get spells from any class's spell list and they can also get expertise on persuasion/deception, plus a bunch of other stuff.

[@johneubank8543]

Better face, sure. Better caster? Really depends on what you steal and then how the campaign goes. Bards can impose disads on ST w/ a hard to get magic item (instrument of the bards) on spells like Hyp Pattern (charm type). Sorc can impose a disad on any ST, only messed up by Legendary saves. Given 5e's action economy, Sorc spell list and meta magic makes them far better casters in most cases, imho - esp w/ clockwork now existing.

[@adamkaris]

@@johneubank8543 If for no other reason that a bard is more likely to successfully counterspell something than a sorcerer. Because jack of all trades improved the check. Plus bards have atleast SOME armor proficiency. And if you're including clockwork, then compare it to the - to saves from eloquence

[@TheFirstLanx]

​@@adamkaris Bards are not more likely to counterspell something because bards don't have counterspell on their list. They *can* take it with their secret spells, but those are precious, come at a later level and not all bards do so. Bards get silence though, which is absolutely fantastic for shutting down casters. I can't think of a single published monster that has subtle spell metamagic.

[@johneubank8543]

@@adamkaris a bard is less likely to counterspell because when it casts counterspell, an NPC caster counterspells the bard. /shrug I'm not arguing face issues. Also, to base so much on one facet is - well, is not something that appeals to me.

[@defensivekobra3873]

Edit: nevermind this was brought up -A thing people tend to not notice about the sorcerer spell list:- -Certain spells that are not on the wizard spell list are found on the sorcerer spell list, some notable examples from the PHB includes Earthquake, Daylight, Enhance abillity, Dominate Beast, Water Walk and Insect Plague, all of whom are held by birthright and by birthright alone-

[@jonathanfenton8695]

If one has both in the party and there is a focus on the sorcerer being mainly evocation, the wizard can compliment that with focusing on buffs.

[@antwan1357]

I played a cleric and I can tell you preparing spells are a lot of planning ahead , just like a wizard. I really felt a Sorceror is kinda like a easier version of a wizard because no spell preparation for a Sorceror but he is stuck with those spells as they are a natural part of him.

[@prophetisaiah08]

There is something that you didn't consider for this, but I think that it's fair to ignore due to how campaign dependant it is. This mainly applies to gritty survival or low-magic campaigns, but it could come up in other games too: the wizard is highly dependant on access to certain materials. If a wizard looses their spellbook and they don't have access to the special materials required to make a new one, then they are limitied to the spells they have prepared. If this goes on long enough (through gaining levels), then the wizard looses all advantages it has in number and diversity of spells it could have. When the wizard gains a level, they can add two spells to their spellbook; but what if they don't have a spellbook to add them to? It would be interesting to be in a situation where you have a 5th level wizard who lost their spellbook early on and has never been able to replace it, so they only have the four first level spells they had prepared at level 1 available to them. Either way, a sorcerer doesn't have that problem.

[@Philistine47]

Unless the DM in that case is making the entire party play without any class features, the Wizard player should probably ask OOC why they're being targeted for that kind of harassment.

[@prophetisaiah08]

@@Philistine47 Here's a scenario: Party is a wizard, a fighter, a paladin, and a rogue. Wizard looses their spellbook, but the other players loose all weapons and armor. Everyone is equally disadvanteged and has to figure out how to survive. In fact, the wizard might make out the best, because they can at least cast some spells. Rogue has no sneak attack without a ranged/finesse weapon, paladin has no smites, and both paladin and fighter might become the squishiest players in the group with the lowest AC. Not every class has equipment dependancy, and spellcasters are in the clear for that, *except* the wizard. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do in *every* game; just that it's a thing that can happen if the DM wants to specifically challenge the wizard class. Is it any worse than a DM that runs games in worlds where *every* spellcaster is hated and attacked on sight?

[@Ghorda9]

@@prophetisaiah08 a simple dagger shouldn't be hard to find compared to everything else.

[@prophetisaiah08]

@@Ghorda9 Depends on the DM and the campaign. If it's a brutal wilderness survival scenario or a prison escape, getting something as simple as a dagger might be a full quest in itself. The DM might rule that shivs or stone tools aren't refined enough to count as a dagger. If the DM is basing things on actual medieval weapons, because a dagger is no simple kitchen knife. A dagger should have a blade at least 8-12 inches long, and should be strong enough to withstand punching through at least thin metal armour, so anything improvised might not have the dagger's finesse property or might only deal 1 piercing damage. This could be fair in certain campaigns in my opinion, given that a basic dagger costs double an average commoner's daily wages. It all depends on how hard the DM wants to make it.

[@Ghorda9]

@@prophetisaiah08 or just steal it from a lone guard.

[@jeffdietz630]

Prediction for subclass comparison. Best subclasses will be compared clockwork/aberrant mind vs. Chronomancers. Chronomancers with offloaded spellstoring concentration mechanic, beating anything sorcerer subclasses can put up.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Good predictions.

[@JayneCobb88]

Raw Power. Sorcerer hands down. Subtle spell wins spell battles and helps if you’re captured / arcane focus is gone. Twin spell makes save or suck spells waaaay better. Quicken mind sliver does damage while making follow on spells more effective. Empowered can increase damage by 25-50%. Transmuted can double damage bypassing resistances and means fewer spells must be memorized. Empowered is good when you REALLY need a spell to stick Campaign utility / flexibility. Wizard hands down. Spellbook, 2 spells per level, rituals, adjustable cantrips, 25+ prepared spells, spell list. “Better” depends upon what you as a player value more.

[@hfix307]

At low lvls maybe, certainly not at high lvls. Simulacrum >>>> twinned spell. Crown of stars >>> quicken low lvl blasting.

[@elliotbryant3459]

subtle spell doesn't help if your arcane focus is gone unfortunately.

[@elliotbryant3459]

@@sharkforce8147 Sorcerer- I use half my sorcery points to Heighten this casting for disadvantage on the target's first saving throw for this spell. Wizard- I'll have my familiar deliver BESTOW CURSE!!! -so that they may have disadvantage on all their saving x saving throws -against anything -and also on associated ability checks.

[@ryanweaver3348]

Someone probably caught it already, but you missed Transmute Spell on your metamagic list.

[@ryanhiroshige316]

Sorcerers < wizards without multiclassing Sorcerers > wizards with multiclassing

[@keaering5183]

Artificers closed this gap somewhat but sorcerers do have more choices here.

[@jakestavinsky3480]

Eh, id like to argue that Wizard has waaaaay better subclasses to dip into tho. Mostly cause Sorc subclasses very much rely on Sorc Points and those get very limited the more you multiclass

[@lunarcat4278]

@@jakestavinsky3480 to be fair there's a reason Coffeelock has explicitly been talked about on Sage Advice though. Like with Wizard their primary dip would be Artificer vs Warlock with Sorcerer. To benefit from just a Subclass it'll be easier for the Sorcerer, but even then id they go 3 like a Wizard would have to for Artificer then the Sorcerer just uh... Gets their capstone. At total level 6. Undercutting the Sorc points bit and see above at needing to be addressed on Sage Advice. They can also either get a better Familiar or the Book of Shadows/Book of Ancient Secrets. And that's just with Warlock. They can also benefit from breaking the Social Pillar with Eloquence Bard. Charisma Casters are far more abundant than Intelligence Casters too. For example you can look at what Wizard could do past Artificer, Eldritch Knight? Then the dip isn't into Fighter, it's the other way around into Bladesinger. Or Arcane Trickster? Fair for an Illusionist or Enchanter I suppose but usually it's moreso the Rogue going into Wizard for more spells. Point being Sorcerer by and far benefits from multicasting more than Wizard, especially with Warlock, and Metamagic Adept really helps that too. And Coffeelock is honestly only emboldened by the Tasha's Sorcerers.

[@Chaosmancer7]

I think the problem with this though is that the classes that the sorcerer takes to make them better are generally Paladin and Warlock (two of the best classes in the game), and generally it is that the Sorcerer is about 3 levels, with the rest in one of those two classes. Which I don't think shows the strength of the sorcerer, but is just feeding off the limited strength of the sorcerer to boost already amazing classes.

[@severknight1143]

@@Chaosmancer7 ahh not exactly. At least paladin wise. I go 2 pally/rest sorc. Warlock I've heard only takes like 3 levels MAX. 2 is the usual ya know?

[@curtisbrown547]

I'd say that sorcerers hidden x factor is skills. sure int technically has more applications, but imo, the skills that you get from charisma are way more impactful. not so much preformance, but deception, intimidation, and persuasion are some of the most applicable skills in the game. being able to lie, talk your way out of a situation, or strong arm someone is incredibly impactful, and a good enough roll on any of these can smoke an entire sessions worth of planning

[@jomohunter4649]

I just recently asked myself the same question...my first char was a wizard and now im playing a sorcerer and i gotta vote foe thw sorcerer! With enough spells and versitility plus the metamagics from the metamagic adept feat it is a whole new sorcerer :) Feels so satisfying to twin a good spell or careful spell many enemies and our comrades saving

[@Bloodxbeast666]

If we're not worrying about a wizard not having con save prof Because feats, then we shouldn't worry about sorcerers not having ritual casting because feats. Not arguing who's better, just playing devils advocate

[@Zertryx]

Sorcerer = Power (Metamagic) / Wizard = Versatility (spell options), Since they both have same amount of spell slots they can both cast the same amount of spells so even if you do know and have more prepared you can still cast the same amount.

[@comfortablegrey]

Another great video by Chris! Regarding class features that can be substituted for feats: The ritualist feat is more powerful than the metamagic adept feat, as in a sorcerer can have access to every wizard ritual but a wizard could never apply metamagic (twin specifically) to every spell. I reckon that the wizard chassis and subclasses are better than the sorcerer, but the two sorcerer subclasses from Tasha's make up the difference better than anything before now. Dylan Ba mentioned INT or CHA skills, and on that I think the sorcerer wins.

[@elliotbryant3459]

Ritual caster is very loot dependent though. In a similar situation, I went pact of the tome on a warlock I played and never found any spellbook/scrolls with rituals above 1st level. Felt like a waste of an invocation but I was too invested [financially and playstylewise to swap out the invocation] -which is a luxury you don't have with a feat investment. -Meanwhile, the wizard can pick up the better spells naturally.

[@comfortablegrey]

@@elliotbryant3459 A perfectly reasonable counterpoint, which feeds into how important spell selection is for a sorcerer. Both are highly dependent on the campaign they occur in.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Both classes are Feat hungry already though.

[@westarrr]

So this is a part 1 of 2? I'd like a bit of a summary and verdict at the end. I kind of missed the Tasha's sorc. subclasses in the Spells known part, since it gives them double the spells and offsets a big weakness of theirs. You mentioned it in the spell list at the end, but that was mostly about how many options you have to prepare/know.

[@miguelangelus959]

Font of Magic works to grat effect for my accidental artificer/sorcerer multiclass. Now, almost at all character levels, I have slots of a level higher than what I can cast, and none of my spells other than Mind Whip I feel are worth upcasting, so I just dump the slots for sorcery points

[@douglascheesman]

Love the content.

[@ATMOSK1234]

Even with the buffs to sorcerer in tashas, it seems obvious to me that wizards are heads and shoulders above sorcerers.

[@peterwhitcomb8315]

I see the opposite. Sorcerers are so powerful that DM's prevent the shenanigans players pair them with. By itself it is a "weak" class and so it does poorly. But it becomes so much stronger once paired with other classes. So it makes up for its shortcomings. It just ruins a lot of DM campaigns. Wizards do great pure. Not so much once they are combines with anything other than 2 fighter. Although they do pair very well with two fighter.

[@artificerprime4154]

@@peterwhitcomb8315 I've heard that Wizards also multiclass well with Artificer.

[@ATMOSK1234]

@@artificerprime4154 exactly, wizards get just as much or more from multiclassing with artificer then a sorcerer gets from multiclassing into other CHA classes.

[@peterwhitcomb8315]

@@ATMOSK1234 Well people are keeping it a secret then. Which is probably a good thing. Sorc/x builds are well known so most DM's blanket ban them or just home brew rules to prevent the shenanigans. Although I have yet to see the same hate towards other builds from the last 3 years.

[@TheFirstLanx]

@@peterwhitcomb8315 My limited experience with fighter+wizard has been rather underwhelming unless we're talking 20th level. The reason for this is that you lack the truly gamechanging spells at the levels where they'd usually be the gamechangers you want them to be. I've never seen anything done with sorc that ever warranted a ban. Not even coffeelock with a year of prep time. Meanwhile, I've been in multiple campaigns where wizard in any form has been banned, or the players have simply requested of each other to not play wizard because the other characters cannot hope to compete with it for the spotlight without major DM intervention.

[@chadnorris8257]

I played a sorcerer recently, and it is fun. I played him kind of like I played my Barbarian, as an offense class. Burn everything down with fire, until it all dies. One nice moment was when I helped keep my party alive with the Daylight spell against Shadows. Or when we were attacked by a Hydra, along with some minor enemies, and the party leader told me to keep it roasted. One day I'd like to try a wizard, but I don't know when I'll get around to it. I play a ranger now, and I'm planning to play a paladin next.

[@benjaminrheault4998]

I'm surprised you didn't take into consideration the subclass spell lists for sorcerers in Tasha's. I know you're focusing on the base class here, but it seems to me like WoTC is suggesting that all sorcerer subclasses should have these extended spell lists, and it would really even up the measurements. (Hoping for an unearthed arcana soon that assigns extended spell lists to existing sorcerer subclasses)

[@TreantmonksTemple]

As I mentioned at the beginning of the video, subclasses were not being looked at yet, I'll look at them in the next vid.

[@TherinCreative]

I certainly give the existing subclasses the same treatment. Goes a long way to address the spells known dilemma while adding the benefit of adding some spell flavor to them (with the Tasha's caveat that if you don't like, swap it for something from a set of two schools). Really handy in tier 1.

[@nolan4339]

Yes an extended spell list for each subclass would be great. Could also add an innate metamagic for whenever a spell is cast with a sorcery point, just like Psionic Sorcery does for the Aberrant Mind. As for the extended spell list though, when being able to swap them out for another from the sorcerer, warlock or wizard spell list of a particular spell type, as is done in Tasha's, I wonder if some spell type combinations may lead to some OP combinations...

[@neileddy6159]

After having played a divination, illusion, and transmutation wizard in long term campaigns and loving them, I took thr opportunity with Tashas to play ab mind sorc. My observations are this. While there are certain spells I really miss, force cage and find familiar being the largest, I feel that my spells are much much more impactful as a sorc. Also with the extra spell list from the Tashas subs the difference in spells available is much smaller. Also with Tashas the items available can make those risky spells much much less risky, it was a major buff. In general the sorc is also much better in any social encounter and can even fill a leader role, while the wizard generally does not. I love my wizards, but the built in flavor of the sorcs is better, the spells you do use you can ensure they are really impactful, the social encounters are better and the weaknesses have been reduced. In conclusion, overall I now favor the sorc as a lifelong wizard player. Some things that dull my enthusiasm though to be fair. Dnd beyond doesn't support swapping out the extended spell list. There are only a couple of classes that include the extended spell list. These are both downsides as I am limited in what I can choose and have to go back to tracking certain spells on paper. Just my food for thought, fwiw. Great video, thanks!

[@georgecastaneda1779]

Great analysis! Would your conclusion be affected by the use of the Spell Points variant for a sorcerer?

[@anthonynorman7545]

That's a great question! I always want to play with spell points but my DM is scared (somewhat justified) of me having more versatility.

[@PowderKeg3838]

In my games, it does just that and makes the sorcerer feel and play like a sorcerer. I have not seen any issues with balance but the sorcerer is much more fun to play and can cast more high-level spells than any other caster at the cost of giving up low-level spells. The actual spell power is the same but the caster isn't forced to hold low-level slots that never get used. I tried it with other casters but have now only allowed it for anyone wanting to play sorcerer as seems to fit better with the sorcery point system and gives them a class ability that mitigates the small resource of sorcery points and a pathetically small spell list/known spells.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Yes, absolutely, spell points would be a massive boost to sorcerer.

[@bee-bee8768]

But consider this: Champion Fighter. At 17th level, you're making FOUR weapon attacks in a single action. Not enough for you? Try action surge, which you can do TWO times! Beat THAT with your Wish spell.

[@ATMOSK1234]

Uh don't they get 4 attacks at 20 not 17?

[@bee-bee8768]

@@ATMOSK1234 Lmao you're right. I don't actually play Fighter. Why would I when I can play a Wizard 🤣

[@studynot757]

😂 “I wish this fighter never existed” (DM grabs fighter character sheet and rips it up, then does the same to the other sheets since the fighter saved the rest of the party that one time!

[@jefry6782]

I Would use Wish to cast Forcecage... or Maze... or any freaking spell that will affect more at any creature...

[@the_brutal_king4314]

@@ATMOSK1234 They're using TWF.

[@zerofang8812]

Great video: )

[@Lordmewtwo151]

Regarding the advantage of Sorcerer in the saving throw segment, I would argue that Wisdom saving throws are just as important, especially against enemy spellcasters. Also, the most obvious Int. saving throws are when dealing with Mind Flayers and Brain Devourers, but what is a Charisma save used for? Also, in the list of Metamagic (15:22), I think my favorites (by description as I haven't played Dnd and never used them) is probably Transmuted Spell, Heightened Spell, and Careful Spell. Transmuted because with only so many Sorcerer spells known, I imagine that it wouldn't be uncommon to run into enemies resistant/immune to most or all of your spells' damage types (especially if you don't have every spell be a damaging one), so the ability to change the damage to one the enemy is vulnerable is just great in principle; Heightened because hindering your enemies' saving throw is always a good thing; and Careful because a Sorcerer shouldn't be right in the front lines but rather either in the middle or the back of the formation. It would be nice to be able to use AoE spells without having to worry (as much) about your teammates being in the cross-fire. Speaking of Metamagic, why is Empowered spell singled out as the only one that can be used in addition to one of the others on the same spell? 20:30-20:39 I thought Disintegrate still did damage even on a successful save.

[@xiadais]

Transmute is okay, but you'd basically be using it exclusively for Fireball. And unless you're consistently running into hordes of very weak monsters, Fireball eventually becomes less effective due to scaling worse than enemies' HP increase. Heighten is pretty good, but it's very expensive (3 sorcery points) and only applies to a single save by a single monster. Recurring saves are not helped by it, and it barely helps AoE spells like Hypnotic Pattern. Careful is again pretty good, but a lot of the time you can just choose a spell that doesn't feature friendly fire. IMO the best meta is Twin. It can effectively give you a second Concentration, which allows you to do things no other single character can.

[@Lordmewtwo151]

@@xiadais Yeah, twin is great. As for careful, yeah, that's true, but I think AoE spells (especially Fireball) would probably be the ones used most of the time by many players. As for transmute, I could see why a player would use it exclusively for Fireball, but why should it be when, like you said regarding careful, "you can just choose a spell that doesn't feature friendly fire"? Following that principle, if you're fighting one or two stronger monsters than a hoard of weaker ones, you could transmute your stronger single-target spells.

[@bestaround3323]

The 18th and 20th level wizard features are far better then you make them out to be. The 18th gives you either a free plus 5 ac each turn, or free element resistance, you can also spam things like invisibility. The 20th give you 2 extra 3rd level slots, that is a free fireball and haste, and it gives you the massive boon of two extra prepared slots, the equivalent of two extra levels, +4 int, or a combination of the two. When you have so many spells to choose from the extra space is great.

[@CaitSith87]

Ok? Before the most recent subclasses i didnt thought it was even a challange.

[@EdBurke37]

"Twenty one years? No, Treant. Only since 3rd edition came out in 2000..." ... ... ... I'm going to die soon.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Me too. I had hair in 2000.

[@EdBurke37]

@@TreantmonksTemple I roll to disbelieve

[@Killlerofthings]

Where is that Wizard Mage Hand Thumb War picture from, thats great.

[@elliotbryant3459]

Which Wizard spells would you want access to as a Sorcerer? I'd love Find Familiar, Bestow Curse, Nystul's Magic Aura, Nondetection, Phantasmal Killer, Leomund's Secret Chest, Conjure Elemental, Flock of Familiars, Hallucinatory Terrain, Wall of Force, Elemental Bane, Mislead, Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, Geas, Modify Memory, Passwall, Scrying, Steel Wind Strike, Contingency, Wall of Ice, Project Image, Sequester, Simulacrum, Antimagic Field, Clone, Control Weather, Illusory Dragon, Feeblemind, Telepathy, Foresight, Imprisonment, Invulnerability, and True Polymorph.