Rogue subclasses Ranked: D&D

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Check out Valda's Spire of Secrets: www.kickstarter.com/projects/magehandpress/spire-of-secrets?ref=5bef55

[@elizabethviolet8448]

this book proports to be a spire of secrets, yet it seems to be largely a spire of subclasses. curious.

[@zerowing6031]

This looks great - backed! Thanks Treantmonk for bringing this to our attention.

[@arnijulian6241]

(The Thieve) I argue is the most underrated Rogue as your wacky antics with fast hands for Oil, bear trap's & a shield don is a fun time. The Thieve is Grenadier:) Bonus action action for 5 flat bonus damage each round say with fire ball or green flame blade from (magic initiative). Take (Tavern Brawler) & then just go ASI's. Proficiency with throwing oil even acid vials so your Dex is added make said surprisingly more intuitive. Because you are proficient your dex is added to damage so alchemist fire &oil becomes 2d4+dex+5 with as 1d4 & 5 being on fire per turn well with dex to hit. (Healer) feat is also an option to use medical kits as a bonus action. You can don & un-don a shield as a bonus action for it is an item interaction. Stab a fella then don it for every odd round +2 armour:) You suffer non of the penalties from not being non-proficient with a shield but wear it only 1/2 the time in combat. The crown jewel for being a thieve at lv13 (use magic) means you can use any magic item even Robes of the Magi to get 20 Ac higher then any rogue armour with spell saves +2 with advantage against spells. Even a good staff & you are away. Every time I have played a thieve I found a fun & different way to exploit it till banned. Even If you don't want to take magic initiate just take tavern brawler a 11/10 feat when applicable & throw a oil & alchemist fire for 2d6+dex+(5per turn) from the other side of the battle field. If gold is not a concern then throw 100 gold of vials the enemy to do 4d6+(2xdex) between sneak attack. With (mobile) it is just plain ridiculous, Why I advice Human variant for a extra ASI. All the 4 feat I mentioned do a lot for 'Thieve' but don't need all of them or you can take them as human & still get 20 dex & 16 con easy enough. Also being able to grapple on a bonus action from Tavern Brawler is more useful as a side effect then you would think. nice little option that most rogues would never take. Best of all any thing shiv like becomes a improvised dagger & is why I like shape water as a cantrip to have disposable icicle daggers. You can deliver damage comparable to a level 11 fighter at level 3 for 50 gold between sneak attacks or frankly the same for at 17 as 20 lv fighter for 1 silver per turn & a feat The uses are limited to the mundane items & your ingenuity. i honestly consider the Artificer a subpar thieve in many ways. Thieve is a (E) in a novices hands but Some one a brain it is (C) possible (B) if you know every exploit but I think I'm being to generous as it depends on your creativity & eye for detail.

[@Razdasoldier]

Revisiting after onednd play test is out. Predicting the expert classes existed before it did xD

[@cameronpowell1864]

Me: Sticks and stones can break my bones but wor- Treantmonk: The Swashbuckler is a D Me: *sobs uncontrollably*

[@Zakon673]

I've played with two Swashies in campaigns that have teached high (upper double digit) levels, neither of them had problems contributing. In one I was the DM and in the other I was a support character, and once we got to higher levels the rogue was the target of all of my enabling buffs because man when they hit the sneak attack damage would just obliterate things. Because they wanna be in melee, they also get to take advantage of opportunity attack sneak attacks more than other rogues. I think he's a bit hard on this one. Belongs in C tier.

[@yugdaBretsiM]

I respect Treants opinions man, but this series has really shown me he has no idea how competitive tier lists function. In any other game a rating of D would be considered an unviable option. I can only think of maybe 5-6 subclasses that actually fit that bill.

[@TheVerandure]

@@yugdaBretsiM There would be no purpose for the E and F tiers were that the case. They'd be useless shades of useless instead of how he's defined them, here.

[@yooooo8600]

@@TheVerandure Most tier lists are just S-D

[@Salt_Mage]

That’s why he explains how his tier list works. Tier meanings are incredibly subjective as it is.

[@AvengerAtIlipa]

If one of my players told me "I'm going to spend 25gp and seven days to assume the identity of an npc" I wouldn't tell them "no, you can't do that because you're not an assassin".

[@seacliff217]

I know, it seems like the Disguise Kit on it's own should be able to do that.

[@antongrigoryev6381]

@@seacliff217 The Assassin's ability goes beyond just appearance. It forges a full false identity (a new one btw, not of a certain npc) with all the documents and connections. One thing - dress like a merchant, another - get enough info to actually put this identity through any half-serious check. Assassin's ability is actually pretty powerful compared to most alternatives, *if* you manage to use it. However, yeah, it is still a ribbon feature that takes a ton of time, is extremely circumstantial, and can be recreated by any character with roleplay.

[@AvengerAtIlipa]

@@antongrigoryev6381 "Until you give them a reason to suspect otherwise". Just like any other deception ploy in the game

[@antongrigoryev6381]

@@AvengerAtIlipa Checks for a person's identity can (and should, if the person is of any significance) be done even without any suspicion. Assassin would have much fewer chances of making others suspicious because of how much stuff they get.

[@HiopX]

Warlock with Actor feat and Mask of Many Faces: Pathetic

[@UnkaJosh]

Arcane Tricksters are an almost perfect example of why spellcasting is such a powerful trait: When the PHB first came out, they were easily the best Rogue subclass, because of access to spells like Invisibility, Find Familiar, etc. But then later books came out, and they also got access to Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade, making them even better by boosting their melee damage, too. And that's just how the whole thing works-- having access to spells means that you have a class feature that just gets *better over time,* as more spells come out.

[@Startoshadows]

They can't cast most of the spells you mentioned without multi-classing. They can only use illusion and enchantment schools.

[@duxlyne]

@@Startoshadows The only spell they can't get at any level is Find Familiar. All other spells there are either illusion or cantrips

[@Startoshadows]

Oops, you're right, was misremembering the illusion/enchantment restriction. My bad.

[@Startoshadows]

@@duxlyne though actually they can get find familiar too, right? Only two of their starting 3 spells need to be from illusion + enchantment schools.

[@duxlyne]

@@Startoshadows That's right. Universal wizard spells get picked up at 3/8/14/20

[@greycat5383]

Mastermind: *studies enemy for 9 rounds* Barbarian: Must be a wizard, with robes like that.

[@iandick1364]

Jokes on the barbarian, most wizard builds either dip for armor or take a feat.

[@chrisfrost1649]

@@iandick1364 or are a bladesinger

[@mongoliandude]

I think for a lot of us Rogue hipsters who've have been playing the class as our main class in 5E for years, there's something uniquely satisfying about playing the Thief subclass, taking expertise in Athletics, and trying to eek the most out of mechanics, mundane items, terrain and improv.

[@Ebonzai]

Like I love climbing hiding and sniping, I LOVE using goofy stuff like caltrops and trolling the enemies. Sure you're not supposed to use healing potions (most dms won't care) but it opens up do many other cheap forgotten tricks. Resetting a trap set to ambush you works, setting up your own trap works, these things will happen in game, you just have to ask.

[@dgmisal1979]

Yea, Thief isn't the most powerful, but I think it lends itself to fun play, especially in games that aren't hack n slash heavy.

[@drewpydrewdrop3841]

I played a level 8 oneshot as a 3thief 5battlemaster halfling and it was a goddamn blast! Thief with the healer feat allows healing with a bonus action, cunning actions to dash or disengage, when going into the clump of melee, you can bound through enemy and ally spaces alike! Using battlemaster maneuvers makes the rather dry(imo) melee rogue actually feel dynamic and more impactful. Total blast of a character

[@DKzCoolD2]

I love using alchemist fire and oil flasks as a bonus action. Yes these do work.

[@yosharian]

I tried to use caltrops in a game once, the Barbarian just ran past them and got surrounded by zombies. He survived of course, because Barbarian. I gave up trying to play strategically then

[@starbomber]

1:01:34 "I don't see any use for this feature..." > Be me, playing a centaur rogue > we're in a pirate campaign though > it takes my character 5 whole minutes to struggle his way up the rigging. > I hit level 3, debate scout (as that was kinda my vision) > I see 2nd story work. > "Hey, DM, how does this feature interact with my equine form?" > DM says it overrides it, so I can now climb at full speed. > I can climb to the top of the mast in 1 round. > I am now expert horse-man sailor.

[@eldritch0golem698]

so...horse thieves can

[@jeepersmcgee3466]

p.s. Thief rogues can steal an enemy's spellcasting focus as a bonus action 👀

[@rogerwilco2]

Heheheheh.

[@apocrypha5363]

I know it's not the best, but I really do love the Mastermind. I made one which was a crossbow-armed moron who thought he was a master detective... but wasn't. He just hung back, shooting at baddies, and using his bonus action to use the Help action by shouting: "The small amount of powdered limestone on that Orc's shoulder shows that his father died in a freak yachting accident. He's harboured a major fear of rope ever since, as a result, his greaves were tied in a rush, aim for his knees!" It was a fun, different way to contribute to my comrades' damage... and I didn't need to use Cunning Action Disengage because I was ranged.

[@chrisvelo2595]

Oh wow that sounds awesome and hard to improvise every round lol

[@apocrypha5363]

@@chrisvelo2595 I made notes to refer to! And luckily it wasn't a super combat-focused campaign!

[@genrepunk]

Shame that it seems the UA Hobgoblin of the Feywild won't be making it into the Wild Beyond Witchlight. It was the strongest combo with Mastermind out there, though it seems to be based on the Help Action working a different way (or, weirdly, on it being used with skill checks rather than attack rolls).

[@colinlove4659]

Thief's Second Story Work does tend to be more impressive for high jumps compared to long jumps. Going from a 5' high jump to a 10' high jump is perfectly doable with a small amount of focus on it. Being able to reliably leap to the top of a single story building is at least an *interesting* trick that can come up.

[@79AlienFinger79]

Just going to note that while a Hexblade dip is strong in a lot of builds, the Rogue gets exceptional use of it. Medium armor and shields give you a solid AC (and two possible sources of magic items to boost it further). The Swashbuckler especially gets a boost from this, I think. [Edit: Booming Blade is a solid addition as well]

[@Booklat1]

I’m starting to think hexblade 1 is S tier and every other lvl is a B tier

[@shawnpeterson2523]

@@Booklat1 Yeah, I like it and hate it at the same time. It's too good IMHO.

[@Booklat1]

@@shawnpeterson2523 should probably have some of the proficiencies coming out at lvl 6 and get another actually interesting feature for lvl 6 to get rid of spectre

[@freman007]

In order to make Pact of the Blade decent they made Hexblade "almost" too good. That said, as someone playing a pure Drow Pact of the Blade Hexblade, they're a good class, very flavorful and capable.

[@agilemind6241]

​@@Booklat1 The armour proficiencies aren't the problem you can get those with a ton of other dips, it's combining them with Shield at the same time that is busted when on any character that gets full spell slots. Though really the key problem with Hexblade-1 is the Charisma bonus for your weapon of choice this should have been restricted to Pact of the Blade - thus requiring a 3 level dip to get. Oh and Hexblade's curse is just broken. Period. The proper rework would be: Invocation: One-with-the-Blade requires Pact of the Blade You can use your Charisma Mod for attack & Damage rolls with your pact weapon. Hexblade 1: proficiency with medium armour & shields + martial weapons Hexblade 6: Swap Accursed Specter for Hexblade's Curse.

[@Torthrodhel]

"Yeah but what can you really do in combat with those fast hands?" "I take all your arrows, I take all your arrows, you've got no arrows, I have all the arrows! And while they're questioning where their arrows are, I answer one - right between the eyes - and use a healer's kit on my pal who was last in the initiative order." I'm not saying that's hugely powerful, and going from enemy to enemy to get the double steals in could be a bit of a task without disengaging. Nor am I saying Thief doesn't totally remain a disappointing subclass design. Still, could be fun. :)

[@Treblaine]

[Thief with Healer feat throws a bandage at a gravely injured ally]: "get up"

[@Torthrodhel]

@@Treblaine my prized bandage. But... but that was under lock and key, how did you get it? Screw it, I'm glad you did, to arms!

[@DKzCoolD2]

I love using alchemist fire and oil flasks as a bonus action. Yes, this works.

[@jamesrexus8555]

Hey Chris, thanks for the effort you're putting in these videos. When the series is done it will be something I will go back to everytime.

[@dw8700]

Hey, some pushback on your comment about the Swashbuckler's Panache feature, "So there's some utility, I suppose, but less than we can get from a first level spell" That 1st level spell is Charm Person, and it has several disadvantages: 30 ft range verbal and somatic components only targets humanoids it's a spell, subject to the limitations of spells (counterspell, 1 leveled spell/turn, etc.) it targets a Wisdom save, which many creatures have bonuses to it costs a 1st level spell slot and the kicker: "When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you." Panache has none of those disadvantages. Its range is hearing, It targets Insight (which few creatures have bonuses to, i.e. only 20ish in the MM), it has unlimited uses, and the target doesn't know it was charmed by you. It otherwise has the same benefits as Charm Person. Only the duration is inferior (1 hour vs 1 minute) and, in many cases, that will not matter. You also need to share a language when using Panache but, cmon, what were you doing with Charm Person on humanoids that couldn't understand you anyway? It's not a super powerful feature--just an unlimited use 1st level spell equivalent with some weaksauce damage mitigation kludge stapled on--but, y'know, the next time you need to tell an ancient red dragon (who speaks common and has only +2 to insight, fyi) that these are not the droids you're looking for, you could do worse than Panache. ---- edit. love your vids, though this is my first comment (critical at that), I've been lurking sympathetically for ages.

[@Ciberbuster]

Rogues suffer from receiving their subclass features too late. Must subclases receive good features at high level, specially compared with other martials, but until those levels you're stuck with sneak attack and little else. If their features were gained let's say at levels 6, 9 and 13 the whole class would be so much better.

[@agilemind6241]

It's because Rogue gets an extra class-wide ability at level 6 & 7 in Evasion & Expertise. Compare to other martial classes: Rogue: 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 10 (ASI), 11, 15, 18, 20 + Subclass 3, 9, 13, 17 Fighter: 1, 2, 5, 6(ASI), 9, 10(ASI), 11, 20 + Subclass 3, 7, 10, 15, 18 Barbarian: 1, 2, 5, 7, 9, 11, 15, 18, 20 + Subclass 3, 6, 10, 14 Monk: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 10, 14, 18, 20 Subclass 3, 6, 11, 17 Rogue (combined): 1,2,3,5,6,7,9,10,11,13,15,17,18,20 Fighter (combined): 1,2,3,5,6,7,9,10,11,15,18,20 Barbarian (combined): 1,2,3,5,6,7,9,10,11,14,15,18,20 Monk (combined): 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,10,11,14,17,18,20

[@Ciberbuster]

@@agilemind6241 while a good feature, expertise is a bit overrated, specially at level 6 when you already have expertise in 2 skills, probably the ones you use more. Overall having more of a pool of options where you choose the best/more useful ones first makes any new iteration of picking less worthy.

[@brettmajeske3525]

Assassin is the one class for which I have seen the most buyers remorse. Everyone expects the monk to suck. They think Assassin is going to be so cool, but the reality is that it does nothing after the first round.

[@tiradegrandmarshal]

Often, it does nothing even IN the first round.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@tiradegrandmarshal I am a nice enough DM that if someone takes this class I am trying to give them opportunities for surprise.

[@nonamenoname1133]

It's so bad, people at my table conflate its flaws with the entire class.

[@Ebonzai]

@@brettmajeske3525 Exactly, Assassin requires a DM gifting situations and honestly just catering to them to not be a bummer.

[@tiradegrandmarshal]

@@nonamenoname1133 Understandable, since 95% of the time the Assassin is a Rogue with no subclass, thus really bringing the relative weakness of the Rogue chassis to bear.

[@texteel]

"Rogues are one of the worst tank candidates ever" WOW evasion tanking PTSD kicks in

[@Puffinbar]

Got that Moroes pocketwatch sitting in the bank.

[@HiopX]

Wizard: yeah Rogue, get behind me

[@agilemind6241]

It's funny in my current campaign my Lizardfolk Swashbuckler tanks better than our paladin - Same AC (18), slightly less hitpoints (63 vs 72), but takes roughly 40-50% less damage because she can usually avoid being swarmed by minions so is getting attacked no more than 3 times per round, and usually at least one of those attacks misses so about 75% of the time she can Uncanny dodge the only attack that hits. Plus with her maneuverability she is much more able to get out of the way of AoE attacks or can use Evasion to dodge most of it.

[@HiopX]

@@agilemind6241 So you're saying your Rogue is a better tank, because he let's the Paladin tank. Well the Rogue mentality fits

[@AjenjoAnejo]

@@HiopX Swashbuckler: -we taking hits for the party:- The paladin: -why everybody believes you, we have the same persuasion?- Swashbuckler: -smiles with persuasion expertise: Because of my winning smile.-

[@andrewshandle]

Your Thief section is why I think the lists/rankings you do is so good. So many of your creator peers rate Thief really high due to the late abilities that will rarely see play in like 95% of games.

[@slydoorkeeper4783]

I like it too. I often look at classes where they max out at 10 because of both multiclassing and because most campaigns seem to be lucky to make it to level 8 even.

[@Finalplayer14]

Panache I do want to give credit for something, over other options: Panache is an at will charming effect that automatically makes someone friendly to you, without a resource or chanting magic words, nor does it make a person realize they've been charmed by you. You can spam this every six seconds and have nothing to stop you from doing it, even if you fail the check. Even after the minute's up, you can do it again and loop it. I agree the use of Panache in a fight is terrible, but using it out of a fight as a tool to constantly keep someone or multiple people charmed is very useful. You're also a few levels away from Reliable Talent, with Expertise in persuasion, most Swashbucklers would be at least at a 19 on each check, maybe higher.

[@Booklat1]

Hexblde 1, swashbuckler x fixes a lot of the problems you’d face

[@jinxtheunluckypony]

That’s what I was thinking. Since nothing happens on a failed attempt you can basically force the issue. Charming anyone who doesn’t already hate you is incredibly powerful. Even a Swashbuckler with ok charisma can become a strong face by using Panache.

[@boyfromoz7]

My first 5E character I played many years ago was a Swashbuckler and I still think it could be my favorite class. I think in the right campaign a swashbuckler can somewhat tank depending upon the opponent. From memory she has a high Charisma so getting to attack first was often, getting sneak attack simple, and an armor class I think around 19 or 20 with some magic studded leather armor, the ability to avoid any damage from most AOE effects and take half damage on single target damage. Was really run playing this character through Rage of Demons.

[@ericpeterson8732]

Quit pushing your patron on me!! I'm surprised the Raven Queen hasn't conquered the world with all the hexblade adventurers out there! I just wish I could have one conversation with players about builds that DIDN'T include hexblades or polearm masters. Unoriginal copycats. (End Rant)

[@Booklat1]

@@ericpeterson8732 kkkk lol Funnily enough I do very much like the old raven queen UA too And shields, i like swashbucklers that can actually use shields

[@DrScott-i9r]

A note on Insightful Fighting (Inquisitive) - once established on a target it lasts for 1 minute, meaning EVERY attack you make against that target automatically qualifies for sneak attack. Yes, there are several other ways to enable sneak attack, and success in setting up Insightful Fighting is not guaranteed, but it’s still a really useful ability.

[@ethanscurlock515]

Yeah, 2 attacks not at advantage will still outdamage 1 attack at advantage, so using insightful fighting first round and then guaranteeing sneak attack for the rest of combat allows two-weapon fighting instead of having to bonus action hide or steady aim.

[@Centaur255]

I had an Inquisitive Rogue in one of my groups (10th level dungeon crawl), and I found that the primary place where Insightful Fighting came in handy was against creatures that were hard if not impossible to hide against (blindsight, tremorsense, etc.), as the Hide bonus action wouldn't help them get advantage against the creature. The issue, of course, is that this is not particularly common, even in that 10th level dungeon. I wish the abilities from rogues were just more commonly applicable overall: most of them rely on very specific situations.

[@WexMajor82]

When the thief swaps the healing potion of the enemy fighter in combat with some alchemist fire, you understand what that ability is for.

[@andrecosta8680]

By RAW, you cant use fast hands with healing potions cause is magic item

[@WexMajor82]

@@andrecosta8680 The potion is magic. The vial is not. By RAW.

[@yggdra1477]

@@WexMajor82 somehow I get the feeling this was not your first time to use that argument. I respect that

[@WexMajor82]

@@yggdra1477 And you would be, weirdly, wrong. But I appreciate the sentiment.

[@lurkingposter]

Or throwing pocket sand into an enemies face to blind them and get advantage for sneak attack. Or use rope to tangle someone's legs and trigger prone. The possibilities are endless with creativity and prep time.

[@dr.glutamate8762]

I play an Inquisitive in one campaign, and there are a couple of things I think are worth pointing out. One, Eye for Detail can be used to search for creatures that hide, turn invisible, or pull some other disappearing act during combat. There's no question that it's situational, but it has helped a couple of times. Second, Insightful Fighting lasts for a full minute. If you can get it to work once, you can get guaranteed sneak attack damage on that creature over and over without needing allies nearby or using any bonus actions on subsequent turns.

[@Raiighn]

While not a powerhouse in any way, an Arcane Trickster who picks up the Telekinetic feat from Tasha's is definitely some goofy fun.

[@genrepunk]

Wholeheartedly agree. Being able to subtle spell Mage Hand with all those enhancements is a big deal out of combat and something I'd love to play.

[@AvengerAtIlipa]

Imagine if Stunning Strikes only cost Ki Points if the target failed their save.

[@jayhill8892]

That would make a massive difference for monks

[@DKzCoolD2]

It should

[@jugglejunk]

How about instead, if they target succeeds on the saving throw the monks gains a number of ki points equal to their wis mod. Now monks have a 60% chance to generate some ki points. which they sorely need and even then they'll be very underwhelming as ki does NOT AT ALL translate into damage very well.

[@agilemind6241]

@@jugglejunk If that was the case a monk would never run out of ki points because a monk should be making a stun attempt every round of combat once they get that feature as well as Flurry of Blows. Monk does fine in terms of damage at low levels (4d6+20 is comparable to a Fighter). The main issue with it is that their unarmed strikes scale way too slowly. Between level 5 and level 20 their avg damage goes up by only 4 points. Which is pathetic, compare to Rogue that gets an increase of 7d6 per round in that time.

[@jugglejunk]

@@agilemind6241 And that's why even unlimited ki, wouldn't be an issue. Even if you said that they could make a number of unarmed strikes with their flurry of blows equal to their profiency bonus, the damage still wouldn't be amazing. I usually say that there are 3 types of archetypes and classes are sometimes a combination of one another. There is 1 the spellcaster, in order to fall into this type you need to at least get spell slots. (casting spells isn't what makes a spellcaster, but being consistantly allotted the necessary resource) 2 a Martial type, in order to fall into this among other thing you need to at least have an option to wear armor, which can come in the from of armor profiencies. 3 typeless, don't belong to any of the other types, the only class that falls into this type is the monk. It's rediculous that monks aren't allowed to wear any armor at all, especially if we look at the historical example of the Sohei. (Japanese warrior monks, they wore samurai armor) (here is a link about ''shaolin monks'' that fought against the Wokou - Japanese pirates - during the Ming dynasty and they were known to wear bamboo armor on top of leather armor. greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-ghost-faced-warrior-monks-of.htmlgreatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-ghost-faced-warrior-monks-of.html) Lastly why oh why if this is all SO martial arts based are we not seeing martial styles that involve animals? end rant (sorry I had to get this out of my system and I still held back a little)

[@twylanaythias]

I believe you are VASTLY underestimating Swashbuckler! I've played several Swashbucklers in various campaigns and even my own party members tread softly around my Rogues. I usually go with Lightfoot Halfling though Tabaxi, Swiftstride Shifter, Eladrin, or any Custom Lineage works to get +2 Dex and +1 Cha from racial bonuses - makes it fairly easy to get an 18 (or 19) Dexterity and 14 (or 16) Charisma out the gate. Wisdom and Constitution are 3rd-tier priorities, Intelligence 4th-tier, and Strength for the dump stat. Plenty of options for Backgrounds (since you get four prime Skills as a Rogue) to wind up with: Acrobatics, Deception, Insight, Perception, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth, with Expertise in Perception and Stealth at 1st Level plus Athletics and Deception at 6th Level. (Squat Nimbleness [as a Halfling] at 4th Level gains Athletics, bonus movement, +1 Dex [possibly reaching 20], and Advantage to escape Grapples.) Of course you can choose others depending on the campaign but this selection has reliably proven the most advantageous for how I play Swashbucklers. Kendria Bowrunner (Pirate Background, as former Second-Mate aboard the Serpent's Cairn) very much enjoys playing up her (supposed) frailty (10 Str) - by the time anyone even begins to suspect her, it's already too late for them. Since gaining Expertise in Deception, she rarely fails to convince others of even outlandish assertions. One time she wooed a bandit leader, assassinated him during an ambush (Nat-20 on her backstab), then feigned horror well enough to convince two of his subordinates that her compatriot (the Fighter/Barbarian the bandits were ambushing) had somehow perpetrated the deed. By no means a 'tank', she's a rather exceptional front-line fighter. Fancy Footwork keeps her mobile, easily repositioning herself during frenetic melee to gain the positioning she needs to leverage Sneak Attack. While Uncanny Dodge and Evasion don't stack, they effectively grant Resistance (and potential immunity) to nearly all sources of damage - Uncanny Dodge works against anything requiring an attack roll, while Evasion works against area effects. In addition to handily masquerading in the majority of gatherings, her Glamoured Studded Leather synergizes with her (now) 20 Dexterity to grant 18 AC (comparable to Full Plate armor). Yes it takes some work, but Swashbucklers can readily go toe-to-toe with any martial class in D&D. In fact, she regularly spars with the aforementioned Fighter/Barbarian - dueling with him more than twenty times and only ever losing once, when he burned through all four of his Superiority Dice via Disarming Attack to relieve her of all her finesse weapons and made it through with ONE hit point remaining. (She now carries *four* daggers in addition to her twin rapiers and hand crossbow. He hasn't beaten her since.)

[@xdecatron2985]

I’m so psyched for the next three videos of the series! These are the ones I wanted to hear your thoughts on the most!

[@HiopX]

I was mainly interested in an unbiased Ranger list. But since they did so good that average better than Barbarian, Artificer and Rogues, I'm really curious how Warlock stacks up against the other casters

[@dylanba5251]

Rogues and Monks need better combat-feat support. Or just more Optional Feature buffs to the main class so it can better keep up with optimized martial DPR.

[@Booklat1]

Once per long rest recovery of proficiency ki points Or Giving each ki related ability a free use That would already make monks so much less shitty

[@binolombardi]

Elven accuracy + piercer is pretty good on a rogue. Steady aim grants the advantage with 3 die. The 3 die increases the likelihood of a crit without having to hold sneak attack if you want a crit while two weapon fighting. Piercer grants the extra die on a crit. Since all of the sneak attack die is piercing too if you use a piercing weapon, you can make use of the higher likelihood to roll at least one low die out of all those die. This interaction stays highly effective regardless of the targets AC, unlike sharpshooter. It’s also two half feats for attribute investment.

[@funnyman359]

@@Booklat1 That sounds incredibly annoying to track tho, when you have 5+ Ki features and need to write/scratch out each of them after one use

[@Booklat1]

@@funnyman359 i agree. I think a once per long rest recharge of proficiency ki points is a more elegant solution. Either this or giving proficiency times free use for ANY ki abilities. So you only get to keep track of a single number.

[@master_swish]

rogues get out of combat utility so in alot of campaigns that don't only focus on combat 100 percent of the time they are really good

[@bskec2177]

Always played that "Fast Hands" does work with potions, but not other magic items, simply because of the similarity of a potion and using a vail of acid, or poison, or oil. Done it for so long I had to double check the rules, because I was sure you were wrong. It's a handy patch for someone wanting to play a thief.

[@vaevictusasmadi84]

Wow, surprised at the "D" ranking for swashbuckler. I played a lightfoot halfling alongside a paladin in Descent Into Avernus and I felt like I kept toe-to-toe in combat usefulness. Slipping through legs and switching between rapier and shortbow was really effective and ALWAYS going first (+10 initiative by lvl 12!) in combat was invaluable. I just made sure the enemy would provoke an AOO from the paladin if they tried to pursue me.

[@nonamenoname1133]

That's really what D means, though. You can't throw Swash into a party comp that doesn't support your playstyle, like, moreso than AT or whatever. You have to know your mechanics really well and be meticulous about every turn, and your team has to be decent about their positioning too. Which is fantastic and I love it, but I've passed on Swash several times because I'd have like one or zero people to pair up in melee with, and the one person would be sketchy in terms of mutual safety. I would play it with a reliable partner and make a killing. D in Monk means high risk, low reward, D in this means it's high risk, high skill, high teamwork, high reward. The trade is a little imbalanced even though it pays out.

[@vaevictusasmadi84]

@@nonamenoname1133 Excellent points. If I didn't have a reliable front-liner with me it would have been near impossible to deal with the legions of hell. If the class REQUIRES backup like that to be effective, I agree it needs the "D" ranking. Still a great subclass though, had a ton of fun with it. :)

[@goblinking1349]

The way I see it, the poor Paladin had to endure your share of enemy attacks, and keep his reaction open at all time for OAs, just to keep you alive. If you had been say a Fighter, you'd have been able to contribute more damage without being a burden to your Paladin buddy. It's a testament to the strength and resilience of the Paladin that they managed to match your damage while also holding the line that you constantly abandoned. Also, getting +10 initiative as Swashbuckler assumes a Dexterity and Charisma of 20, which unless you rolled amazingly well means you pumping one or more ASI into Charisma. You are much better off taking the Alarm feat instead.

[@cory849]

Swashbuckler is an A sub class. I love Chris but sometimes... just sometimes... there's nonsense.

[@Ahglock]

@@nonamenoname1133 Maybe, but having a fighter type isn't really a unusual ask for a party composition. It might happen in your group, but that is I expect extremely rare.

[@harrisonw1002]

Just wanted to throw out there that I think assassin is best used as a 3 level dip from a gloomstalker. That way, you are not only an exceptionally powerful first-rounder regardless of surprise, but you have pass without trace to keep your paladin quiet so you can actually get surprise more often.

[@TainakaRicchan]

I just did the math, and the rogue damage is actually good(tm), as long as they can get a sneak attack every turn. The damage of sneak attack is pretty much exactly identical to the fighter/eldritch Blast Baseline, without any optimization. With Greenflame Blade or Booming blade, it actually gets really good, at least as long as the rogue can sneak attack. This is a point, where the ranged rogue, that of course can't use the melee cantrip, really can get milage out of steady aim.

[@shawnpeterson2523]

Yeah, I played an arcane trickster in an otherwise unoptimized party, and I was outputting the most damage. I thought that would change at 5th level, but the two melee characters basically just did similar damage, probably still a little less though. It's just not consistent, that's all. If you miss that one attack, no damage at all. And I'm probably using the bonus action for something other than a second attack.

[@dbrandow]

Your friend is right about Insightful Fighting. I play a melee-based Inquisitive/BattleMaster, and that feature comes into play all the time, and substantially increases my damage output. Steady Aim is only an optional feature, not every DM allows it. Steady Aim is also often not feasible in melee combat because of not being able to move before or after your attack, and it eats you bonus action every round, whereas Insightful Fighting only eats it once, leaving your bonus actions free for disengaging, hiding (admittedly wildly unlikely), offhand attacks, etc.

[@veras7927]

Here's a use for fast hands I haven't seen very often before. Since it allows a sleight of hand check as a bonus action, you may be able to use it in combat to do things like tangle someone's cloak, trip them up, or steal a weapon or arcane focus out of their hands. Since you're a rogue, you can get really high sleight of hand consistently - for instance, at level 11, you have reliable talent for a minimum roll of 10, a dex mod of +5, expertise in sleight of hand for another +8, potentially gloves of thievery (which is a 6th level replicable item for artificers btw) for another +5 - that's a sleight of hand check of 28 mimimum as a bonus action, which should allow you to do some pretty sneaky stuff even against someone you're staring down in the middle of combat.

[@Ebonzai]

Thief is designed for the player that likes to ask for out if the box things and has a DM that will allow non by the book things that make sense based on the environment. You can't RATE that's though, Wich is why many Thief players are happy even if technically the number are not on their side

[@elliotbryant3459]

Not sure taking a weapon/arcane focus right out of someones hand mid combat would qualify as a sleight-of-hand check, -off their belt or something sure, but things you are wielding while fighting for your life... you would be hyper aware of, no amount of sleight of hand would make sense for a skill check barring like a very circumstantial scenario or some highly planned "Now You See Me"-esque ploy. Just my opinion. But I do agree, it's definitely a feature that can be fun and rewarding challenge if played creatively.

[@Ahglock]

@@elliotbryant3459 Same, but the rogue sneaking up on the spell caster stealing their focus and getting a back stab off in a surprise round even if the enemy spell caster is not surprised would be pretty snazzy.

[@Ahglock]

The rogue has a large mundane took kit, its up to the player to take advantage of that. I value that pretty highly, and I haven't seen a rogue yet who fell behind in contributing to the party. Pure DPR sure the HWM fighter or barbarian outpaced them, but there is more to the game than that.

[@veras7927]

@@elliotbryant3459 Fighters can disarm their enemies in fights, in game and in real life. I'd argue that you could do the same with a sleight of hand check, though maybe at a high dc (which you can easily meet). A dc30 is considered nearly impossible to achieve, and allows you to do things like break out of dimensional shackles. It's seems unreasonable to suggest that stealing something out of someone's hands is even more difficult than that

[@lemeow8102]

AT being in C is a hot take already, still totally agree

[@cradillium7089]

TM's C is more like a B anyways, I think that's totally fair

[@darthwikkie]

He weighs heigher towards full casters. And Paladins. And there's very strong evidence he's correct to do so.

[@alextrollip7707]

@@darthwikkie he also does weigh heavily on combat. Swashbuckler panache out of combat is phenomenal for example.

[@yooooo8600]

@@alextrollip7707 He does not consider out of combat utility whatsoever

[@jorgejustin461]

@@yooooo8600 why bother when the full casters have a spell for every out of combat situation imaginable.

[@carolynmorrison8389]

37:50 Re: Inquisitive's Insightful Fighting - I would opine that, even a shorter fight of 3-4 rounds could demonstrate that Insightful fighting has freed up the player's bonus actions on 2-3 subsequent rounds and allowed movement vs. the Aim Cunning Action. I would agree with the colleague you mention that this feature has played out to be much more useful in our actual campaign's game play. Thank you very much for your fantastic, data-driven content, Mr. Treantmonk, sir. Cheers

[@Notsogoodguitarguy]

YES! Finally someone starts advertising Mage Hand Press. These guys are superstars. I've been following their work since forever now, and they're amazing. Thank you, Chris! Oh, and also, they actually put an effort into balancing classes, even against each other. If you try and min-max builds with their classes, you'll find that there isn't an enormous difference in power levels like there is in the base d&d classes.

[@channelremoved32]

that's definitely good to hear. i'm usually pretty wary of third-party content, but i'd love for a balanced alchemist class to allow in my games.

[@bskec2177]

I put both Bards and Rogues into the "skill users" category. Rogues approach form the martial side, and bards from the caster side. Bards spell list leans far more into utility spells than combat spells (although some combat spells are present).

[@frymawe]

I guess it depends on what you consider a combat spell. I think of bards as control buff debuff experts. Those spells mostly get cast in combat, so I think of them as combat spells. Wizard has more utility spells.

[@bskec2177]

@@frymawe Wizards are the purest of the casters. They get enough of a selection to be played however you want to play them. The Bard spells that are combat related do fall into the buff/debuff category. I still thinkt hey belong in the "skill monkey": category more than spell caster, whereas the rogue as the more martial version.

[@luiken3]

I put Rangers in the skill user category too

[@bskec2177]

@@luiken3 The Tasha's version definitely leans more to a skills category.

[@luiken3]

@@bskec2177 I think they were always supposed to be, but it didn't translate well. They get 3 skill proficincies out of the gate like Rogues and Bards, amd originally their favored terrain/enemies would boost certain skills that they would use. It was all kinda niche though, so Tasha's makes a much more versatile Ranger and I think more clearly defines them as a skill specialist as well.

[@lawrenceboivin6706]

While the damage from Wails might not be massive, some times it doesn’t need to be. Using wails my character eliminated the toad familiar that was about to be the conduit for some nasty spells. Totally took my DM by surprise and dramatically altered the combat encounter.

[@michaelhenman4887]

Also allows the rogue to finish off very low HP enemies without wasting the damage of their sneak attack.

[@shawnpeterson2523]

Haha, that's awesome!

[@jordanw2741]

I found the inquisitive fairly good. However, this was when Xanathars first came out, and steady aim was not an option. Definitely did not age well with Tasha's.

[@rayvicka9749]

What gets me is if you manage to pull off a surprise to begin with you're already in such a powerful spot that you already probably won the combat

[@Scaphism36]

Inquisitive gets advantage for a minute which is likely the entire combat thus it’s just as good as vow of amenity. You can also do it beforehand, and the target might not know the level of which you’re eyeing him, as the ability doesn’t specify that the target knows he’s being studied

[@Siennarchist]

Vow of Emnity is a bonus action

[@BigPapaMitchell]

I havent had a chance to try a Swashbuckler yet, but Panache actually seems pretty good if you're fighting a handful of strong creatures. The base Swash features mean you can maneuver in combat without a problem, and if you have Booming Blade you can still keep your bonus action incase you need to disengage around the battlefield, and this lets you impose saveless disadvantage against a single creature. For battlefield control this seems pretty potent, the party can focus down the other enemies while this one creature suffers disadvantage, and with our superior mobility they're unlikely to catch us. Its not great if you're trying to fight a single powerful enemy, but if you're ok trying to clear other enemies before this one, it seems useful, and it's completely resourceless, and saveless on success, and in one level if you took expertise you're likely getting a minimum roll of 20 on the check.

[@Twisttheawesome]

For Swashbuckler, you are forgetting that they can bonus action dash. So panache is a bit better than you thought in that you can strike, impose the effects, then run away at twice speed.

[@jonathanwynes2542]

I generally agree with the things you’re saying here and in other videos. The thing that still gets me though is that you aren’t encountering skill checks or use object interactions in combat. Like every fight I design has a locked door protecting some archer or a magic device on a pillar that needs to be deactivated to shut down some magic field or stop an unstoppable golem or something. I don’t do premade stuff ever, so maybe it is less common there but even in some of the adventurer’s league content I’ve played at gencon, investigating runes or unlocking shackles from a prisoner or what not have come up plenty of times during combat and give a clear advantage to players who have bonuses to skills or in this case Fast Hands.

[@shawnpeterson2523]

I think that is good design by you. I gotta admit, I should do this sort of thing more.

[@jonathanwynes2542]

@@shawnpeterson2523 yeah it can be tricky. On the one hand it adds complexity and makes the fights feel involved and different. On the other hand in can add some confusion if the “mechanic” of the fight is not explained well or too involved. It’s like watching your players complete a puzzle you thought was easy but was maybe lacking another piece or a bit of clarity then putting that into a life or death situation. It has led to some fun memorable fights but also a couple frustrating ones for all involved.

[@yooooo8600]

Yeah I think the best combats are the ones where there are multiple things going on at once. There are traps on the battlefield so you have to worry about positioning. There’s a giant crystal ball or some shit that randomly shoots out lightning so you have to worry about deactivating it. Stuff like that. It makes combat so much more interesting because you have to prioritize more than usual

[@antoniorezik4072]

I get the feeling you base numbers off of white room battle. The advantage of the Rouge is being able to hide around the corner, pop out and deal a massive hit to the enemy. Acting quickly where your other party members are slow. Obviously 1v1 in a white room against a Paladin the Rouge will be destroyed, but put the Rouge in a dense city or a thick forest and they will thrive

[@ClintonJohnson1]

Why the swashbuckler doesn't get shield proficiency is beyond me. It is literally the reason for the name. As they would walk, their sheathed rapier would bounce against their buckler making noise.

[@roberttschaefer]

Maybe they use it but aren’t proficient? (LOL)

[@michaelmcgee8189]

Because the subclass wasn't designed around etymology, it was designed around fantasy fulfillment, which is more about acrobatic fencing than historical accuracy. The trope its evoking was developed in movies, like: Zorro, no shields Pirates of the Caribbean, no shields Scaramouche, no shields Princess Bride, no shields Robin Hood, no shields D&D isn't history, its a pastiche of genre fiction.

[@punishedwhispers1218]

@@michaelmcgee8189 Rapier buckler man is still a viable trope however...

[@ClintonJohnson1]

@@michaelmcgee8189 Adding shield proficiency wouldn't break the fantasy nor is it just etymology to say that swashbucklers used shields. It would however give a subclass that is typically in melee more mechanical ways to survive in that space.

[@michaelmcgee8189]

@@ClintonJohnson1 it wouldn't break it, but that's why it doesn't have it. It's not supposed to be a sword and board class, it didn't start from filling that conceptual framework, it's a duelist, it's Zorro, the other hand is free so you can swing from the chandelier.

[@rogerwilco2]

I think one of the best things that 5e did, is get rid of the "skill money classes", and made the Rogue a martial and the Bard a primary caster. I do think that Rogue needs more defensive abilities.

[@pedrocavalcante4939]

I'm really happy Arcane Trickster is on top! It's my favorite subclass from one of my favorite classes. Had so much fun with my AT Rogue on Dragonheist. I'll never forget always getting advantage with my Owl Familiar, almost never missing due to Elven Accuracy and stealing the McGuffin from the bad guys without them noticing. Truly an amazing experience.

[@mtswerens]

LOL, just started Dragonheist with a level 2 rogue, planning to go AT. No elven accuracy since I'm an (archived) owlfolk, but stealth bonus, flight, and magic sight ritual isn't bad.

[@NeilBeforeZod]

I know Chris mentioned the Sentinel Feat combo, but I think AT works really well with a Ritual Caster Feat investment. You can save on some spells, and also get Find Familiar.

[@pranakhan]

Mirror Image + Sentinel was my immediate takeaway. This is going to be great on my Armorer Artificer. I still look at the Mastermind Rogue like; ' wha...?" At least two of the subs in Xanathar's seem like they were built for more RP heavy or puzzle based games. I think that may be one of the difficulties in design; we look at these classes by comparison through the lens of both the kinds of games we personally play and what we assume an "average" game of D&D commonly is. I think it could be more interesting if they discussed subclass design in relation to the types of session one would imagine them being in.

[@displeasedsociopath5939]

I dunno, I do pretty well as a Thief with Fast Hands. I took Stealth and Slight of Hand as my two Expertise skills early on. When I see a spellcaster, typically I use my action to Dash at them, then Fast-Hands swipe away their spell component pouch. Works wonders for keeping balls of bat poop from turning into party killing fireballs. I also use it to... set hunting traps, dump caltrops, dump ball bearings, set up a grappling hook to swing from in combat (thanks Patrick Rothfuss), drop smoke bombs, plant evidence on people, apply poison, remove a Mugger's belt (yeah buddy fight me with your pants around the ankles), or in one instance removed a *cough cough* article of clothing from a Big Bad Evil Gal to get her to stop beating the crap out of the our sorcerer. If Thief is *one of the worst* rogue subclasses, it's because because it requires you to think, and be more than a booming blade backpeddler. < IMHO

[@1MrKale]

Well done as always, the analysis behind this entire series is more comprehensive than anything else I've seen. Super valuable. Can't wait for the conclusion to the series with an all-in ranking across the full catalog of subclasses :)

[@harrisonw1002]

As someone who played a 6/10 ranger/rogue split in a long-form Out of the Abyss campaign, I loved the scout. Skirmisher helps you keep away from enemies so that you don't have to use cunning action for it, and that way you can hide for advantage on your turn. Also, having 10 proficiencies (was also a half elf), and expertise in more than half of those was kind of crazy. And yes, having a 45 foot climbing and swimming speed was endlessly useful.

[@binolombardi]

The steady aim feature from tashas allows the inquisitive and swashbuckler to use sneak attack in situations where other rogues wouldn’t be able to. If an enemy creature is making use of mechanics that impose disadvantage on the rogues attacks they can make use of their subclass features combined with steady aim and gain sneak attack, even with poor party positioning. As an example, a rogue inquisitive could potentially win initiative and use insightful fighting against a devil. Then on the devils turn it could cast darkness on an area to gain the mechanical benefits of obscurement while within it. The inquisitive would be able to use steady aim to cancel the disadvantage and still potentially sneak attack with a ranged weapon.

[@Malisteen]

Re disarming traps usually being out of combat, I encourage DMs to try placing their traps within the context of a larger combat encounter. Aquatic enemies triggering a rising water trap when they launch an ambush, or spinning blade traps combined with enemies that cause forced movement, or small size enemies attacking party members in a room with floor triggers that only activate when medium or larger creatures step on them - maybe a goblin temple with tiles activating dart traps, or kobolds defending the path to a dragon's lair with the floor tiles activating little bursts of flame. Anything that creates ongoing combat hazards that persist until disarmed, & are dangerous enough to make disarming them a worthwhile use of combat actions. This sort of thing can add some interesting variety to a combat encounter while also making skill monkey type characters like articifers & rogues that are often on the weaker end in a straight fight feel a bit more useful. Making your traps part of combat where other characters are also doing things also reduces the problem of other players having to wait around not doing much while the party trapfixer plays their own sort of minigame disconnected from the rest of the experience.

[@andrewshandle]

This is a great point, but the mileage will vary wildly with Fast Hands based on the DM, so it's not really reliable. A person can make a Thief with thoughts in their head about picking a lock mid-combat to free an ally that saves the day and it just never happens.

[@DKzCoolD2]

I agree. Dms please start using your environments more. A combat should never just be 5 bandits using their turn to stab etc. Give the combats a purpose, alternate or multiple win conditions and surprises or twists in the form of environment changes or hazards. Your world becomes much more alive this way.

[@SaraphDarklaw]

I been waiting for this for a bit. I’m so excited. I’ve never played DnD but I want to get into it and into rogue.

[@magonus195]

Well, you certainly found the right channel to optimize.

[@snazzyfeathers]

My advice is to not play a Phantom Rogue if you ever play Curse of Strahd

[@Ebonzai]

Melee actually IS fun regardless of what math loyalist will tell you. Don't be discouraged by what you've heard. Optimizers don't really think damage matters but you'll still have fun when you kill something.

[@snazzyfeathers]

@@Ebonzai Agreed on this as well. Rogues may be a "one and done" class with only one attack, but sneak attack brings it home. On a crit?? I've done well over 50 damage in a single attack just going flat rogue. Optimizing isn't a bad thing imo and if optimizers have fun optimizing all the more power to them, but by no means is a rogue's attack, melee or ranged, mediocre in most circumstances. I mean sure if you're playing with a party that are decked out in optimization like a fighter with great weapon master or whatever sure they might do more damage but IMO not as stylish as a rogue when they get it done. You know...that's your action, your bonus action, maybe even an action surge. A rogue can do really good damage with just a single attack and still have other stuff they can do after.

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

"Rogue is one of the weaker martial chassis" Somewhere, a Monk just broke down in tears, and is being consoled by his party of a Chronurgist Wizard, a Moon druid, a Cleric of Twilight, and a Cleric of Peace.

[@r.downgrade5836]

Well, at least Scout isn't an E. And you hit on exactly why it's my favorite Rogue, it's the best one for ranged focused combat, which is exactly where I want my squishy Rogue.

[@brettrichards4048]

When it comes to insightful fighting, i think it can be useful if you're playing with a DM that thinks hiding in combat is overpowered and doesn't make sense of that sneak attack is too strong. I think if you're a rogue in that kind of campaign you're gonna have a bad time anyways, I just know there are a lot of DMs out there who get real weird about sneak attack and stealth sometimes. In which case I think this could be good as most monsters are really bad at deception.

[@mongoliandude]

You're totally right, the Rogue experience is very much defined by the DM's perspective and grasp on some less well-known mechanics. Tasha's dropped Steady Aim, which gives rogue an alternative (and rather fraught) option to gain advantage on their attack. Still not great for dual-wielders or crossbow experts however!

[@JaredHight-g4e]

Sadly in my early years I was one of those dms, since I didn’t understand the mechanics of sneak attack. I also didn’t understand how sneak attack balanced out against high level melee characters. It wasn’t until I had my rogue player elect to fail his death saves that I realized I was screwing him over so bad he just wanted to play a different class. I learned a valuable lesson about trusting my players (except for the power gamers you have to watch them a little closer)

[@wassentme1891]

Treantmonk: constantly comparing bonus action use against other uses that give advantage. Also Treantmonk: dismisses Help as a bonus action, which gives advantage.

[@goblinking1349]

Rogues only have one strong attack, so getting advantage on that one powerful hit through Steady Aim is more valuable than giving advantage to a comparatively weaker hit of a Fighter or Barbarian.

[@Ebonzai]

@@goblinking1349 But their damage is only supposed to be OK compared to them right? Since sneak attack is supposed to be so bad anyway who cares right?

[@Startoshadows]

@@Ebonzai you're missing the point, sneak attack is just okay because it's instead of multiple attacks those other classes get. Having advantage on one of multiple weak attacks is naturally weaker than advantage on a single strong attack.

[@joelhickman5226]

While I can see why you are considering the rogue the lens of a martial class, I cannot agree. The original four classes were cleric, fighter, magic user , and thief, and I believe the thief is different enough from the other three to be its own thing. I have never been in a game where it seemed that the rogue was close to being unable to pull its own weight, or even seemed to be towards the bottom of party performance. I suspect that by evaluating a rogue as a martial class, you tend to push it more to its weaknesses than its strengths. After all, it is the rogue that usually takes point in environments likely to be trapped or in need of quiet scouting.

[@rogerwilco2]

I actually think he did the right thing. He also explains that he focusses on combat and level 12 and lower for these comparisons. But I think it is good that 5e has done away a bit with the "skill monkey class" and made the Rogue more of a martial and the Bard a full spellcaster. I don't think the concepts worked in earlier editions. And yes I did play a Thief for 14 levels in AD&D. Magic is just too good compared to skills in D&D.

[@PowderKeg3838]

I've seen a thief use sleight of hand to pickpocket a mage's component pouch...

[@sesimie]

I Love the fact that you also put a total list so we can see how you rank all Subclasses together. Great series!!

[@LivingLordLutheranChurch]

Our Inquisitive was amazing in our campaign. You just have to build them as the detective/spy kind of character.

[@brianpious3242]

Playing an Inquisitive Rogue with Observant felt so thematic in Dragon Heist. Also mixing it with Ranger for a few levels was a great way to finish off in Avernus. Mechanically there were the right moments where he shone, most of which did involve skills. There were a lot of skill challenges in these two adventures that other members of the party were not able to auto-succeed.

[@Philistine47]

First: Concerning the Scout's bonus proficiencies, the PHB does state that if you gain the same proficiency from multiple sources then you can pick another proficiency of the same type. So if your Rogue already has Nature and Survival through race and background picks, a DM _should_ let you pick up a couple of other skills when you get Expertise in those two. Second: Did the Inquisitive player go into detail about how, why, and under what circumstances he found it useful?

[@misterb6]

RE: Scout proficiencies, I don't think that rule applies here, because the feature specifically states you get proficiency in these two skills "if you don’t already have it." Specific overrides general here.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I think you might be referring to the rules on backgrounds? The player I referred to basically liked the feature because I got the impression he was using it instead of Steady Aim or an ally within 5' to set up sneak attack.

[@troyyrob]

​@@TreantmonksTemple Insightful Fighting works well on the enemy's back line, like casters or ranged characters that melee allies cannot reach. Some people might say you simply need to use Steady Aim or Hide as a bonus action to get advantage, but Insightful Fighting only needs to be used once since it lasts for a minute. I tend to prefer being able to use my bonus action to Dash or use some other feature like: a bonus action attack from Crossbow Expert, casting Healing Word, moving a Flaming Sphere, shooting a Luminous Arrow, using Second Wind, a bonus action attack with War Priest, using Channel Divinity Harness Divine Power, making a Spiritual Weapon attack, using Balm of the Summer Court, summoning a Spirit Totem, summoning a Wildfire Spirit, directing a Beastmaster pet to attack, using Patient Defense, using Kensei's shot, using Planar Warrior or Slayer's Pray, using Quick Toss or Rally or Feinting Attack as Battlemaster Maneuvers, manifesting an Echo or swapping places with one, invoking several runes, using Fighting Spirit, etc. (Inquisitive's high reliance on WIS makes it pair well with Cleric, Druid, Ranger, and Monk in addition to Fighters unlike other Rogues.) The strength of the feature is that it is useful even if you lack advantage and even if you lack an adjacent ally AND that it lasts for the whole combat. We are playing in a political intrigue game set in an ancient world city like Babylon, so Inquisitive's features have been used quite regularly to catch lies, search/spot hidden and invisible enemies, and case a place or solve puzzles/traps mid-combat. In games that focus more on social encounters, mysteries, puzzles, intrigue, or even factionalism, Inquisitive and Mastermind shine a lot more than other subclasses. I just think a lot of DMs and players tend to value combat more heavily than social encounters, when an ideal game should have both. Inquisitive isn't flashy, but I use my features every session, even when we have no combat. Does the Assassin do that? No.

[@adamwilcox8947]

I played a swashbuckler in a very lethal hex crawl - if you position this character right you are in the money, walk in take one attack if you hit you can cunning action dash out, amazing stuff

[@NotYourAverageNothing]

Can you clarify why you rank Assassin higher than Mastermind? Bonus action Help is going to come up waaay more often than surprise, and the 9th level features are almost equally niche (7 days vs 1 minute is a big time difference though).

[@Taliesin_]

Yeah, I was really surprised (heh) he had any respect at all for the Assassinate feature. It's just *so* unreliable.

[@mongoliandude]

You will see the Surprise condition come up often and efficiency in parties that know when to let their Rogue Assassin on the leash, leaving the clanging plate-clad martials behind, and scout ahead... but we all know that this isn't most parties!

[@yooooo8600]

@@mongoliandude Because who the fuck would want to stay behind while the rest of your party gets into combat? That is boring and not something that should be done in a collaborative game

[@Domkhxiii]

That steady aim really taking away from some of the other features that helped get sneak attack

[@antongrigoryev6381]

Thief with Medic Feat basically has an unlimited amount of touch-distance Healing Words, plus some additional healing per short rest. Not sure how effective it really is, but having a "field medic" running around the battlefield is really fun.

[@bosunbones.8815]

My AT has a dip in celestial warlock. Limited yes but having those mini healing words on hands at 60ft range is sweet!

[@elliotbryant3459]

Better than Healing word! [1d6+4+ the max number of hit dice it has]. There is one limiting factor in your supply of healer's kits [10 uses per, 3 pounds each] -potentially not an issue depending on your table though. But ya it is a cool pairing that I want to play some time.

[@marcos2492]

These videos are so interesting to me, they show me a whole new world of D&D, compared to what I suppose is "softcore" or "casual" D&D that I play Skills are king of the out of combat, that plus sneak attack and every single rogue I've seen is/was an absolute powerhouse. That does include the inquisitive btw. The only exception may be the Assassin. Great class for an NPC, but every PC Assassin I've seen was basically a subclassless one unfortunately

[@cory849]

I keep coming back to this video. It makes me think there's something fundamentally flawed in your approach. I've always thought there were problems with the rogue Sub-classes. Especially thief and assassin in the PHB. But excusable because the rogue chassis was so strong. I still think so. A rogue needs to be a rogue. I feel like your analysis for this class is something like "the rogue should be a fighter". The melee rogue is so well designed to be a rogue. Sneak in. Stab what somebody else is already stabbing. Hard. Run away. Hide. Playing it feels like playing a rogue. And your analysis seems like " if only it has a D10hd, extra attack, and a 22ac!" Yeah. Then it wouldn't be a rogue anymore.

[@meowzebub9667]

In my one experience playing a tabaxi swashbuckler (run from levels 8 through 14) I found it to be a very survivable melee combatant using skirmish tactics. This was an extremely challenging campaign where we basically rode the edge of a TPK in many combats and I was consistently the last man standing, including in the actual campaign ending TPK. A good portion of the time I was able to finish combats completely unscathed. Based on my personal experience, I have to disagree with the D ranking here. Great video, though.

[@genghisg]

I've been a Tabaxi Swashbuckler as well and have had pretty much the same experience. Tons of skirmishing tactics and charming lethality. With only a +2 in Charisma and a Rapier of Warning, I could easily sneak around at 120ft charming and killing lone enemies on the outskirts and or taking out spellcasters, range attackers, other support guys and then pop back over to my party to give them a quick bit of advantage to flank an enemy on their turn. Steady aim, crossbow someone else or finish off the flanked enemy usually. Then repeat those two rounds again. Super fun.

[@veras7927]

My favourite arcane trickster build is 20 levels of bladesinger

[@Malisteen]

I know the Blood Hunter is unofficial 3rd party content and thus doesn't belong in this series. However, it has been published for free on the first party website and is included in the first party online character builder, putting it in a quasi official grey zone between first and third party. As such, a lot more games allow it than other third party content. I know you already have a good video with your thoughts on the class, but if you're ever shy on content and looking for video ideas in the future, I'd love to see one covering where the BH subclasses would have landed on this tier list if the class was official.

[@cory849]

Great idea. It would be good for him to do some videos critiquing Critical Role content generally including the Gunslinger, the bespoke Paladin oath Mercer created, and anything else there is. It could use some scrutiny.

[@brettrichards4048]

DnD Beyond is not 1st party. DnD Beyond is owned by Fandom Inc. which was formerly known as Curse and owned by Twitch. While they have a licensing agreement and work with DnD to make digital tools, they are still a separate company. This is why you have to purchase the books again on DnD Beyond even if you own a physical copy. The money for the physical copy goes to the publishers, print press, WotC and Hasbro. Buying the content on DnD Beyond goes to Fandom (who then pay part of that fee to WotC and Hasbro for licensing).

[@brettrichards4048]

DMs Guild is also technically not a first party company. It's a second party company. While DMS Guild is owned by OneBookShelf, there is more of a direct partnership with WotC for ownership of content and licensing. A bit of a strange middle ground, a bit less clear, but still not really owned or operated by WotC directly.

[@MithranderGray]

While a monoclass swashbuckler might be a D, it can easily move to C with the right multiclass. I had a battlemaster / swashbuckler player, and his character was extremely effective.

[@Booklat1]

Hexblades if you want to become more social while actually becoming more powerful in combat too.

[@Kronosxviii1]

42:20 Insightful Manipulator: At least the battle master's version can give you an idea of your targets AC & hp. 44:40 Wails from the Grave: Would be neat if crits increased the damage the second target took. 51:40 Psionic Power: Hmm, if you were to multiclass the psi rogue & psi fighter together would you be able to 1) combine your psi pools into a larger pool and if so 2) use your rogue psi points to fuel fighter stuff and vice versa?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

According to the designers you need to track your psi points (rogue) and psi points (fighter) separately

[@deltavictor8369]

@@TreantmonksTemple I am inclined to agree that is the intended interpretation, but I do think they should have given "psionic energy dice" two different names to alleviate confusion. Given that previous editions (ex., 3.5) let power points from all sources mingle, having that not be the case now is, well, confusing. As a houserule, I would absolutely let them stack between subclasses.

[@tjrooger1092]

That's crazy, I wasn't aware of that. I assumed they named them the same thing on purpose. They even scale at the same levels. Luckily random tweets and whatever else aren't RAW. The dice are absolutely the same in the source books.

[@timeforsuchaword]

​ @TJ Rooger It's equally valid to say that they share a pool and you don't get additional dice for having both subclasses. You can do what you want, but the simple truth is that the RAW just doesn't say anything about it.

[@jonathanwynes2542]

Yeah actually re-reading the abilities all they say is that you have a number of psionic energy dice equal to twice your proficiency bonus. It doesn’t say it is equal to that plus any from other sources and there are no multiclassing rules for it the way there are specific rules for spell casters and spell slots, so if you wanted to be a real jerk RAW it would seem you’d only ever have a total number of dice equal to twice your proficiency regardless of the source of the dice. In that light, I would take the ruling from the designers to have 2 separate pools each as big and be happy. It would have been nice if they’d clarified it by making rules on multiclassing or named them something slightly different.

[@muddlewait8844]

Rogue IMO suffers quite a bit from the availability of goblin as a race, since goblins effectively get Cunning Action as a racial ability.

[@mongoliandude]

Agreed, big oversight by WoC and definitely not the only case where this happens

[@VioletMoonfox]

I never have campaigns end as early as it seems you do. Most the ones I play in end around 17-20, and every campaign I run ends at 20.

[@maradagian]

XP by Milestone, right? This people deal in cold, hard numbers!

[@seaperson5704]

I've never been in these 17-20 campaigns for over a decade. wtf

[@eshansingh1]

Even so, features that you get earlier still matter for far more of that time than the features you get later. Like, exponentially more time.

[@kaemonbonet4931]

The problem I have with the typical criticism of "your don't usually play that high level" is that I think it is inconsistent. If it were consistently applied. Combat pre 11th level would be weighed most highly and then almost all the martial classes would be so close their ranking wouldn't matter all that much. And sorcerers and warlocks would be much lower ranked and druids would probably be higher ranked than wizards ect.

[@andrewshandle]

​@@kaemonbonet4931 Its not all that inconsistent though. One person saying their campaigns always go to 17+ doesn't disprove the fact that numbers show that the vast majority of campaigns stop well before then. I give Chris full credit because he's at least weighting things based on how likely a player will encounter them, far too many "rank the subclass lists" rate the high level abilities way too high.

[@tylerh2548]

Revisiting things like Assassin really makes me appreciate other systems, like Shadow of the Demon Lord. In that heavily-paralelled-yet-different-to 5e system, the Assassinate trait activates when you attack a creature surprised or from which you are hidden. The target makes a Saving Throw or is killed outright. If they are surprised, they auto-fail the save. Clean, neat, and does what the title claims.

[@lipeeefl]

I made a pirate swashbuckler with booming blade, and he was spanish and I would mix spanish with portuguese (I'm brazilian) in the sessions. It was pretty effective but also quite funny. I also got a +2armor so it worked out really well at the time.

[@tibarto3067]

As someone who played an Inquisitive rogue, the Insightful fighting was useful for me ONLY because I was a bow user. Otherwise, it would have done nothing for me. Also, I played on the cusp of Aim being playtested and (my dm temporarily allowed aim) when I had access to Aim I never used the feature.

[@shiranuiprestonsaga8867]

Rogue is one of my Favorite Multi-Class pick I made a Level 7 Samurai with 3 levels with swashbuckler rogue and with it's Fighting spirit completely obliterated a ton of enemies by always qualifying for sneak attack plus multi-attack

[@bskec2177]

Even with multi-attack, you can only sneak attack once per turn. If you hit twice, you get one sneak attack, and one regular damage.

[@antongrigoryev6381]

@@bskec2177 Which, with 3rd lvl Rogue, is just 2d6 per turn. Better than nothing, of course, but at 10th lvl not really impressive.

[@shiranuiprestonsaga8867]

@@bskec2177 I know but giving a fighter Sneak attack and the Cunning action is ridiculous even if only one attack gets sneak attack. Especially since it's used with Swashbuckler basically making sneak attack always online, a better initiative bonus (I used variant human so it also has the Alert feat) and better Mobility

[@jamesrexus8555]

@@shiranuiprestonsaga8867 your third attack was right there on 11th level, waaaaay better than lvl3 sneak attack

[@shiranuiprestonsaga8867]

@@jamesrexus8555 we were only playing to ten or else I would also the Flavoring worked with the character

[@milltary64vs5]

so a thing about Thief is it can let you use the healer feat as a bonus action healing for 1d6+4+ targets level. which is pretty cool imo

[@OpenWorldAddict0]

I would like to see how you would do a build that combines the Rogue's swashbuckler with the Fighter's Battle master subclasses.

[@starcravingmatt]

I take dual weild. Evasive footwork is a must. So long as you use your movement each turn, evasive footwork stays up, so you can run circles around your enemies. If you start with fighter you can have full plate(with 15 str). The disadvantage to stealth won't matter with expertise in it. Overall, 12 fighter, 8 rogue. All the asi/feats. Alternatively, go 11 and 7 and add 2 barbarian levels for rage and reckless. I find this to be one of the most potent multi class combos. Focus on mobility as you have a free disengage with every attack.

[@OpenWorldAddict0]

Some of most difficult decisions i have with this build is when to take levels in Rogue and when to take levels in Fighter, especially if I might be playing a low-level character. For my build, i do plan on taking variant human for the extra feat to get Mage Initiate to get some small casting ability. I also play to put my highest scores into Dexterity, then charisma, then strength. (edit: Here is my build to lvl13: ddb.ac/characters/57585919/4VWVgc) However, what i was saying above is that i would to see Treantmonk do a swashbuckler/battlemaster build because i am very interested to see what he would do.

[@brendancourtsal1903]

I feel I should mention that Modrately Armored is a half feat: you can get medium armor AND shields while bumping a 17 dex to 18. The rogue definitely still has defensive issues, but I'm not sure it's that hard to round out its defenses. Yes, the best medium armor gives disadvantage on stealth checks, but the difference between half plate and a breastplate is only 1 AC (an 18 vs a 19 with nonmagical armor and a shield). The shield taking up a hand could be a problem however, since dual wielding helps immensely when it comes to landing sneak attacks, and ranged weapons generally require a free hand to reload.

[@kyleflanagan963]

My opinion on the Inquisitive and Insightful Fighting in particular is that it was actually really hurt by Tasha's Cauldron of Everything as a subclass and probably needs some form of extra ability now. Before Tasha's, it really depended more than other abilities on your party composition. We played Curse of Strahd with a 3-man party of a Barbarian, a Warlock, and an Inquisitive Rogue. With only two martials and a backline caster, our Rogue often found that she didn't want to stick by the Barbarian and needed to be very mobile. During those times, Insightful Fighting was always the best way of getting her Sneak Attack consistently. And to be honest, even if we had Steady Aim at the time, she still likely would have used it at least part of the time to be able to keep moving. The fact that you only need to succeed once and then it gives you Sneak Attack on that creature for basically the whole combat helps a lot. It's still not great, but I think it was better than it is represented to be here, at least before Tasha's. I really can't speak to it after.

[@GURGLEGUY12345]

Wait, what? You think Insightful Fighting works just as well as Steady Aim, or did I misunderstand something? Steady Aim only works for that turn, and you can't even move that same turn. Sure, it provides Advantage, but with Insightful Fighting, although you need to succeed at an Insight check (which, if you're playing an Inquisitive, you'll probably both have put one of your higher scores into Wisdom AND Expertise into Insight), it's only a _bonus_ action (which Steady Aim also is, I know), and the effect lasts for _ten turns._ You don't even need to rely on nearby allies, which was a slight point of contention you brought up earlier. On top of all that, _there's no limit on how many times you can use it._

[@MsNathanv]

I feel like Rogues are being judged on their damage output here, when that would be like saying that a control Wizard sucks because almost anyone outdamages them. The Rogue is the character on point. They need skill checks all the time for perception and stealth (at the very least). They need massive initiative, evasive movement, and single-target damage reduction to get back to the party in case something goes wrong (and it will.) A lot of Rogue abilities support this play style very, very well, and as scouts, Rogues are at least as good as most of the alternatives (gloom stalkers are nice too, but if you play one as the point guy, you'll always find yourself saying, "If only I had some rogue levels....")

[@Siennarchist]

I was on board with this defense of the class, but this is not a good defense of the scout. Nature and Survival are garbage skill that will almost never come up in play. Uncanny dodge makes skirmisher garbage two levels after you get it. 10ft speed that doesnt even work for flying character on a character that is focused on range is surprisingly unhelpful This class is worse than the mastermind. Somehow

[@MsNathanv]

@@Siennarchist Hi, I wasn't talking about the Scout subclass; I was talking about the party role of forward observation, aka intelligence collection-- aka, scouting.

[@Siennarchist]

@@MsNathanv oh fair lol

[@chad2687]

@@MsNathanv just have a wizard cast find familiar or a druid wildshape. scouting is overrated in most campaigns imo

[@jorgejustin461]

except full classes are just better at doing all of that as well in 5e.

[@mongoliandude]

I seen a Thief find out they could reliably grapple the party Barbarian and later some Large creatures, then tie them up with rope, all in a single turn. Took Expertise in Athletics (mostly for the climbing and jumping checks), had an okay STR score, and put that hempen rope/10ft chain to work using Fast Hands. It was kinda upsetting, actually.

[@christopherjones7191]

Barbarians raging with reckless attack getting sneak attack is hilarious to me

[@BobHerzog1962]

One advantage of the Panache charm is that the person will not know you charmed them when the effect ends

[@cp1cupcake]

Steady Aim did a very good job of nerfing all of the pre-Tasha's subclasses (except for thief and assassin).

[@rubysecules1312]

I've been looking forward to this video so much

[@codynoles4222]

One thing I will say for Thief: I once played a doctor Rogue. He knew where vital spots were which is how he used his sneak attack. He was really good at Nature and Medicine, and he started off with the Healer feat. The Healer feat is not explicitly a Use an Object action, which is why I asked my DM beforehand if this was OK. With Fast Hands, I had a VERY good bonus action heal, especially at low levels, which ended up saving the party more than once. I don't expect other DMs to be so accommodating, but it was a very fun concept and the character is fondly remembered to this day. He was very much an iconoclastic sort of rogue, who waded into melee because he would go for nonlethal damage against most sentient, sapient opponents, and would rather dress wounds than make them.

[@fadeleaf845]

A lot of these "advantage on skill checks" kinds of benefits end up being honestly not useful at all because you could already have advantage if someone in your party came up with the idea of using the Help action. Also the Asssassin's 9th level feature is literally weaker than the Charlatan background

[@mongoliandude]

Many parties don't allow/think of sending their Rogue to take point and scout ahead on dungeon crawls, and thus the level of independence granted by these features often goes underestimated. Rogue's too often shine at times when a party is at its must vulnerable, such as when being imprisoned, deprived of rest/equipment, or those show-stopping scenarios where the use of magic is fraught or impossible. That being said, Boots of Elven Kind pop up reliably in every campaign (RIP Supreme Sneak), and pretty much all of these bonuses can be recreated through a casting of Enhance Ability. The difficult truth is, most DMs (and players for that matter) are heavily focused on magic-use and slog-match combats, where many of the nuanced mechanics in DND are forgotten - many players are taken by surprise when I remember to make use of tool proficiencies and background features. Not an environment where Rogues can easily shine.

[@Sean-fo8kg]

You mentioned Rogues really needing defense. As a DEX-based class, studded leather gives you a 17 AC if you have 20 Dex, 16 with 18 Dex. Not the best but that’s not terrible.

[@Booklat1]

Hp sucks tho

[@mikebieser4175]

It takes a while to get to 20 DEX, and even still AC 17 is tied for the worst of any martial. It doesn’t get much worse for defense of martial characters. Combine that with the lowest hit die of any martial character(except for bladesinger wizard), and the rogue is pretty much the weakest martial character on defense, and weaker than a lot of casters too.

[@Sean-fo8kg]

@@mikebieser4175, but it has other abilities like Uncanny Dodge, Disengage as a bonus action, and Evasion. For the savvy, tactical player a Rogue can be very survivable. That’s NOT to say it can tank a bunch of enemies at once like a Barbarian. Totally different play style.

[@mikebieser4175]

@@Sean-fo8kg I do strongly believe that tactics are huge for actual viability! 100% agree. But I’m ultimately unimpressed by uncanny dodge (worse IMO than the Shield spell), a big believer in disengaging/hiding (still rough that it requires a bonus action) and evasion is good. But unless you’re playing a ranged rogue, you will be caught in melee often and you will be forced to rely on AC and hit points often. And those hp don’t last long. The rogue in my game just died, so I’m very freshly aware of these problems. RIP Corpse the thief, now he’s just Corpse the corpse.

[@Sean-fo8kg]

@@mikebieser4175, it *should* be worse than a shield spell because it’s unlimited use and does not cost any resources. If you got +5 AC at-will every turn as a reaction that would be OP AF. Once per turn halving the damage of an attack really adds up to pretty good damage reduction. It goes a long way to make up for the d6 hit dice.

[@VileScarMind]

Panache charm doesn't carry the risk of charm person. The target doesn't know it was charmed afterwards and isn't as likely to retaliate.

[@tiradegrandmarshal]

Insightful Fighting ... it's there if you intend to move that turn. Not great, but it's something. And I've gotten plenty of use out of both the Mastermind's bonus action Help and Thief's Fast Hands. That's a lot more than I can say for Assassinate. I still think Assassin should've been on the lowest end of E or even an F; that subclass was such a dumpster fire of design and needs a redo every bit as urgently as the PHB Beast Master did.

[@VorpalSword9]

Bonus actions on rogues just have an enormously high opportunity cost. It basically sees use if 1) you need to move but 2) the reason you need to move isn't an enemy on your ass so you'd need to disengage and 3) there's no cover around to hide behind. Otherwise, advantage on your attack is going to far better than some low damage caltrops or advantage on an ally's attack, since rogues do higher damage-per-attack than anyone else. Insightful fighting is even worse, because in addition to those 3 criteria there also can't be an ally within 5 feet of your intended target otherwise you have sneak attack anyway. Even surprise is going to come up way more often than that extremely specific situation.

[@evannewell7985]

Bonus action conservation is the reason it’s valuable, IMO. If you succeed on Insightful Fighting, the benefit lasts for a minute - likely the whole encounter. Your bonus action is now free to do anything else, and you have sneak attack every turn.

[@tiradegrandmarshal]

@@VorpalSword9 Mastermind actually works out great if your greatsword-wielding Fighter is next to your target enemy, in which case you get your Sneak Attack anyway, then give said Fighter advantage as well for GWM. And it's not just caltrops for the Thief. It's also ball bearings (prone = melee advantage for you and everyone), hunting traps (restrict movement and possibly make enemy waste actions), alchemist's fire (again can make enemy waste actions), and acid (2d6 more damage). And the times I'd want to ensure a Sneak Attack on a back-rank enemy without an ally 5 feet away, while still needing to move still comes up far more often than surprise ever will, and even more often than the times I beat the initiative of the enemy I want to hit in the first round. Not saying Insightful Fighting is great by any means, but still better than Assassinate.

[@VorpalSword9]

@@tiradegrandmarshal At low levels that can be effective, but at higher levels you do so much more damage per hit that advantage on your own attack is going to be more valuable. Let's say that you and the fighter have a base 65% hit chance, which is pretty standard across all levels. The fighter using GWM will have a 40% hit chance after the modifier. You getting advantage brings your hit chance up to 87.75%, and them getting advantage brings their hit chance up to 64%. So the expected value of advantage on the GWM fighter will be the expected damage (17 plus mod, so 20-22) multiplied by 0.24 so about 5 DPR and that doesn't really change with level. The expected value of advantage on your attack will be your expected damage multiplied by 0.2225. So we know that if we say the fighter has a +5 mod, you should help them if your hit does an expected 5.28/0.2225 = 23.73 damage. Assuming you have a d8 weapon and a +5 mod, that will happen when you have 4d6 of sneak attack dice, or at level 7. If you are using booming blade, it happens right at level 5. And it's not like the help is doing all that much before level 7, if we look at the DPR advantage that help gives us over giving ourself advantage it's going to be less than 1 DPR at level 5. A primary subclass feature giving us less than 1 DPR is not very good. For thief I was being flippant but none of the options are very good either outside of tier 1. Ball bearings don't even have a chance of proning if enemies go at half speed (which is usually not much of an inconvenience if there are melee characters, which are what you gave as a reason why proning would be good) and a DC 10 is basically an auto success for anything proficient in dex saves past tier 1. The hunting trap DC of 13 isn't much better, and that's if your DM actually allows it to be used in this way at all since there's no reason an enemy would just step in a hunting trap they just saw you throw down 6 seconds ago. Alchemist's fire does will never actually cost an action because 1d4 damage (gated behind an attack roll, no less) is basically trivial after level 1 or so- it would have to burn for 4 turns to be more expected damage than a single turn of getting advantage on our attack at level 7 from before. Acid is nearly ok, but it still has a lower expected damage than just using steady aim and still costs money to boot. Essentially, the expected value of advantage is going to be quite high on a character that makes 1 powerful attack, so all of these miscellaneous uses of a bonus action are always going to be worse. And that's really bad when your primary subclass feature for 6 levels is essentially useless, except that it can be fun for flavor reasons if you're fine being suboptimal. Finally, when you say needing to move comes up more often than surprise you're forgetting the other two conditions that also need to be true: that you need to move AND there is no cover you can hide behind to use the hide action AND there is no melee enemy making disadvantage the correct choice either way. *All* of those need to be true to make a different bonus action the best option, and I can't remember a single time that's happened to me.

[@tiradegrandmarshal]

@@VorpalSword9 That Fighter's damage can be more than the number you gave on said hit if said Fighter is a Battle Master and intends to add a Superiority Die. Or if the Fighter is a level 7 Eldritch Knight with Booming Blade. Or if the Fighter is an Arcane Archer. In those cases they're also going to add some sort of nice effect on hits, while all you'll ever do is damage. And actually slowing an enemy down with ball bearings does help melee characters in your party if those enemies are the type that like to keep their distance and attack from range. Also not every enemy you face is going to have DEX save proficiency. In fact, many do not. As for hunting trap, there's no rule that forbids placing it directly at the feet of the enemy. And Alchemist's Fire and Acid don't force you to stand in place after you use them. And many combats involve a lack of hiding places, and if I'm a ranged Rogue I am either (a) very rarely in a situation where I have to disengage from melee, or (b) I have Crossbow Expert and thus I don't care. So in many cases, yes, all three of those things are true and Insightful Fighting does turn out to have a use. The way I see it, all three of the above subclasses still have features that are useful more often than Assassinate ever is. Assassinate doesn't even work in many battles, and in the instance it does, it doesn't work against the target you wanted to attack in the first round.

[@maybevoldemort8995]

Insightful fighting enables the rogue to target the back line and utilise crossbow expert fairly well. Two attacks is better than advantage and, when you do hit on the first attack, you can use your bonus action for something else if you need to. Yes, you could normally get advantage/sneak attack off fairly easily, but in a lot of cases you’ll be attacking the front line or still be risking things with a single attack. Given I think rogues are fairly weak in combat, due to sneak attack scaling, this enabling them to focus on back line enemies (who are generally more squishy) is a boost. I’m not saying it is amazing, but I do think it has value- though you need a feat to maximise the value

[@tiradegrandmarshal]

Insightful Fighting itself uses a bonus action in the first round, though, so it clashes with Crossbow Expert then.

[@dylanba5251]

@@tiradegrandmarshal The idea is that backline would survive multiple Rogue attacks. But this is getting pretty niche and most times, the Rogue would be better helping their Fighters/Barbs kill what is in the way, so everyone can focus that backline target down together.

[@maybevoldemort8995]

@@dylanba5251 yeah, it is fairly niche, but not irrelevant. There are enough combats with flying enemies, something fairy quick, or mages (added bonus of two attacks is two attempts to break concentration). I agree it doesn’t make it amazing or anything, but I do think inquisitive has a niche as a rogue for targeting back lines. Basically what the swashbuckler would like to do, but with a lot less risk

[@dcarrano]

I'd think you'd need two feats (Sharpshooter also) if you want to target the "back line" with a hand crossbow.

[@maybevoldemort8995]

@@dcarrano this is a fair point and something I’ve definitely thought retrospectively. It is probably a build that relies on you rolling stats rather than using point buy/standard array, but could work well with customised origin/variant human

[@matthewparsons4597]

I disagree about the Swashbuckler. While Rogues aren't what we think of when we say tank, they have a number of reaction abilities that are useful in extending their hit points beyond that of a squishy character. Their high quantity of expertise makes taking Athletics a low cost and something that brings them more in line with grappling tanks (maybe even above). Their primary ability is DEX, the score for armour and saving throws against most AOEs, making them a little harder to hit. They take space well, as Sneak Attack is a terrifying ability that forces enemies to focus on the Rogue or reap the consequences. There is nothing a Rogue can't do well, and while there are other classes that are better suited to the role it's unfair to call the Rogue incapable of tanking. The Swashbuckler goes as far as to unable frontlining shenanigans that few other classes can compare to, and that screams "I'm a tank" to me