Love these spells as a player. Hate them as a DM.

[@JayneCobb88]

One time we got hit with hypnotic pattern. Only the caster passed. They then cast darkness which smothered the pattern. Nothing to see, nothing to be hypnotized by. That gal was the most creative caster player I’ve ever seen

[@nibilissilibin9141]

That definitely sounds cool and I would've allowed it that once as well, but RAW the pattern only appears for a moment and disappears. The incapacitation is then only tied to being woken or duration/concentration.

[@nathansmith9597]

@@nibilissilibin9141 RAW you are correct, but I would allow the darkness spell to break the hypnotic pattern, too. I once had a player Enlarge himself after he was swallowed... I let him auto-escape, and even rolled a constitution saving throw for the creature that swallowed him. The beast succeeded, but if it hadn't I would have let the player roll some bludgeoning damage against the enemy. I love it when players use spells in creative ways to get out of tight spots, so long as what they are trying to achieve is reasonable and makes sense in light of the situation.

[@nibilissilibin9141]

@@nathansmith9597 I would likely as well, then adjudicate afterwards the RAW (unless the RAW is dumb). In regards to enlarge/reduce, I use the rulings when it comes to returning as well. If there isn't room, it doesn't happen until there is room. No exploding bodies. Even polymorphs would remain in their morphic state, still transferring damage but Malcolm's maintaining the current form. But, that's my ruling on it. Once is cool. But I've got to set boundaries afterwards because my players strive for established exploitable shenanigans.

[@micmic2575]

I was in a similar situation as a Battle Smith, except I failed the save. Steel defenders are immune to charm and can take any action if you cannot give them orders. I used it's action to shake me awake. Felt really good to do that.

[@HughJayniss69]

Having a spell do any effect you want is less creative then finding a solution within the limitations the rulebook sets.

[@toshibaDVDplayer]

Had a really fun encounter in a Planescape game. We stumbled into some weak enemies that had Banishment, and banished a player. The trick is though in Planescape all the players are stuck in Sigil, the city of doors. Well, Banishment sends that player 'home' and then they have an encounter in their home and during that minute. If their other party members don't break that concentration, that player gets to stay home, instead of be stuck in Sigil. It had this very nice combat to 'save' their friend on one side of the table, and a heartfelt return home with the knowledge that they might stay and give up the adventure or abandon their friends... or return and finish helping the multiverse. It was a very fun encounter, BUT it was set up to be. I had 'home' encounters for each player set up, because I didn't know who or how many might get caught by the Banishment. And the homebrew enemies only had like 10hp so killing them was pretty easy.

[@kylas1902]

Love it. Stealing it. With respect.

[@declankonesky38]

Literally last night I had a similar thing except vice versa bc the players were from Sigil. They would have been sent back there and had to bribe their way into being taken back etc. After they already been made on the outs by the guild that sent them away. The DC was low for 8th level character, dc14. But scary enough considering it's a Charisma save

[@michaelhenry7510]

@@kylas1902 ditto

[@GoldenDragon007]

Another thing that can be bad about banishment is the whole banishing a creature to it's native plane part of the spell. Depending on the type of campaign you are running, the players might be on a different plane than the one their characters are native to. So in a worst case scenario, forget missing out on a battle, a charector could get shut out of the entire campaign.

[@poilboiler]

It would be hilarious if a DM forgot that detail in a campaign where the players are trapped on another plane with the goal to get home.

[@aetherkid]

Happened to me. Had an enemy mage cast Banishment on the PC druid who seemed the biggest threat They were on the Shadowfell. So he got stuck back home and had to make a new PC. Lmao

[@4Shaman]

But sometimes that can lead to another exciting adventure. A character in my game lost their physical body, so the party decided to pause their adventure to venture into the ethereal plane to save their friend. They found an NPC who could plane shift them for a high price, and all of them decided to risk their lives in order to save the npc. They ended up crossing Ethereal and astral plane and reincorporated the body in Limbo before coming back. The ordeal changed their fates forever, created strong bonds of friendship and made the party feel special and cool when they came back to the Material! Moral of the story is, a DM who thinks outside the box can sometimes turn a terrible/campaign breaking event into a memorable experience!

[@joshuawoodfolk8202]

It's ironic how your comment and the comment above yours are saying the exact opposite about the same topic

[@LoLotov]

Some races and backgrounds specifically mention the PC being from a different plane even if on the material, gotta be careful with this... although it could be an interesting way of shelving a character whose player wont be around for an indefinite period. Maybe you go the running a quest to rescue them route if you have a good time table, or maybe they just rescue themself off screen when the player can rejoin.

[@futurecaredesign]

8:15 "It is just not something that I like doing. I can just feel how that would be." This is why I love your channel man. You put yourself in the shoes of the others at your table. More people need to do that.

[@driscollja]

Ice knife: love it as a player. Tells you if the target has a good AC, also tells you if the target and all surrounding creatures have good Dex saves. Really great if you have a high initiative half caster in a caster heavy party. Gives the rest of the party some really good info on unknown creatures in the first round of combat. As a DM: lots of time spent on a spell resolution when you already know this information and hopefully planned the encounter around your existing knowledge to make an appropriate level of challenge.

[@goodgulfgas]

As a DM, I gave Banishment to Strahd and successfully banished the Peace Cleric who was holding the Sunsword and doing other cleric "buff stuff". Strahd cast Banishment and then moved back through the floor so he couldn't be attacked and let his minions do the dirty work. I had him pop up to attack on his turns. It was starting to look grim for the party after a few rounds and would have definitely resulted in a TPK if I hadn't intentionally cast a different concentration spell. So yes, Banishment is too powerful sometimes for a DM. P.S. Also, I'm really starting to hate Guidance as both a DM AND a player.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I support banishment of Peace and Twilight clerics.

[@LukeLavablade]

I actually think targeting a Cleric with Banishment is a relatively fair move because they have proficiency on the save, and it feels really good to succeed against something you know would have been devastating.

[@MrJerks93]

I think it's a great tactic, especially in that End Boss encounter. Granted it may suck for the player depending on their playstyle. One thing to take the sting away can be sidekicks. Being able to contribute by one of the party's allies at least allows thr player something to do.

[@ginothespacewhale593]

One spell that I, the DM, hate when my players cast is Teleport. Because suddenly we are back in a town I haven’t thought about for 6 sessions and now I gotta remember all the townsfolk I definitely didn’t make notes for.

[@FlameUser64]

Further problem with Suggestion _and_ Mass Suggestion both: This spell is more powerful when used by the DM. No matter what the DM uses as the Suggestion, it's obviously a reasonable request in their eyes or they wouldn't make it, so it is always enforced. A DM may _not_ rule the same way were a player to attempt the same suggestion, whether that bias is conscious or not! Thus, a DM can do things using Suggestion or Mass Suggestion that a player character cannot do.

[@DeathMonky22]

The most disheartening use of hypnotic pattern used against me as a player, was when a creature used it against my hexblood astral monk. One failed saving throw, there went two turns of setup, hex and astral arms. Made me feel useless the entire fight. Then later in the fight, the DM used fear after using Sickening radiance. The fight dragged on for far longer than it should have. I wish I could pay the DM b/c then maybe he'd actually take into account the player psychology of his choices as the DM, rather than thinking "it's what the enemy would do, not my fault." Then he chose to have the enemy escape once a player character was on the edge of death. But the most egregious part is that he told us, the players, the people who spent 5ish sessions looking for this single enemy, close to 2 months irl, some sessions were cancelled bc life happens, he told use that the enemy had 8 hp left. How am I supposed to feel exactly? If my character hadn't failed that saving throw, the party wouldn't have wasted 2 months of real life free time. I've considered leaving the group over this, more than once, bc the entire situation shows a complete incompatibility between my game philosophy and the DM. I don't know what I'll do. But yh, those are my choices for spells I hate a DM using. Hypnotic pattern, sickening radiance, and any mass fear causing spell.

[@connorschultz380]

Talk to your firends I suppose, and have them talk to the DM together

[@elizabethviolet8448]

Fun fact about banishment: if the party is playing in a low-mid level campaign where they've been whisked away to another plane and have to do the adventure in that plane, and an enemy manages to keep concentration on Banishment for the full minute, then that player's character is out of the campaign unless you somehow give them the ability to travel back to the plane the rest of the party is on. So it might take them out of the action for much longer than one combat, or they might have to roll up a new character! Though I think Resilient Sphere could be fun as a defensive measure for enemy mages, since if an enemy mage uses this on themselves then they've basically cast banishment on themselves, and players might like it when enemies banish themselves. Also, it can be really fun if there's a big pool of lava nearby to push the trapped mage into, since the players can point and laugh at the screaming mage who only has 36 seconds left on his resilient sphere before he dies in horrible agony from lava

[@thebitterfig9903]

One thing that makes me think of is that Banishment as a spell and Banishment as a plot device is kind of different. There are potentially really cool stories to tell with characters banished to other planes, exiled from their current plane, or so forth. However, that's not the same as just having an enemy spellcaster just do that on a whim and then you've lost that character because of a bad save and unbroken concentration.

[@jthompson7024]

A pretty common theme for me is disabling control spells. It's satisfying as a player to completely lock down an enemy and the DM usually has multiple opponents to run but losing an entire turn or multiple turns as a player feels terrible and I hate to do that as a DM. What I like to do instead is give problem solving moments like spike growth or wall of fire. Enemies can challenge and restrict players without making them useless

[@DvirPick]

11:36 While readied actions are limited, the enemy doesn't necessarily know the trigger condition for them to avoid triggering it. Also, you mention loving phantom steed as a player, but you also recognize that this mobility is way too powerful as a DM. So if a player picks it you have the opposite problem. Now they can do the same powerful tactic you mentioned having little counters.

[@agilemind6241]

Just kill the steed, if it takes any damage the spell ends which means RAW that it cannot be ridden any more.

[@vadaritis]

@@agilemind6241 except it has a one minute fade time where it can still be used. As RAW: "When the spell ends, the steed fades, giving the rider 1 minute to dismount. The spell ends if you use an action to dismiss it or if the steed takes any damage." Meaning if the steed takes any damage the spell 'ends'. And what happens when the spell 'ends' the steed slowly fades away over the course of a minute.

[@agilemind6241]

@@vadaritis But the spell specifically says it can only be ridden for the duration of the spell. So when the spell ends, the horse cannot be ridden anymore.

[@AiraBai]

Banishment: Some Lineages are not native to the normal plane, for example Aarakocras not gonna come back, because they are native to the air elemental plane. So after the group broke the concentration, the player won't come back (dissapointment for the group) and is now basically permanent split from the group, if the player doesn't decide to create a new char. As a DM I would just ignore that part of the spell.

[@SpiderWaffle]

9:14 Human (Mark of Passage) from Eberron can get Phantom Steed as well, actually one the best expanded spell list you'll ever see.

[@michaelwinter742]

Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere makes for great puzzles. Players can breathe inside, so they could have a glyph at the entrance of a toxic gas maze.

[@driscollja]

Best use of Otiluke’s resilient sphere: when terrain is involved and there is a steep incline or ramp. The enclosed character rolls down the hill like an unlucky hamster. Casting this directly in a creature climbing or in a glyph of warding on a steep path is a great use for either players or DMs. For DMs, this is a great trap to separate a party member and have a whole adventure around the other party members “recovering” them. It leaves the trapped player safe from immediate damage and leaves them with agency a moment later, while separating them from the party. This is especially effective early game with a party that has one very dominant power gamer. It allows them to power game while just surviving while the rest of the party gets to explore their agency and abilities in reaching the stranded character.

[@JonathanMandrake]

Note: Otilukes Resilient Sphere can be interesting if you know one of the Players can cast disintegrate, especially if it is one of their higher level spell slot, but not the highest, as to drain their spell slots a bit. Similarly, it can be interesting to have an object or creature (or even multiple) that has to be destroyed, and if that's done the disintegrate spell ends. Point being: There needs to be a challenging, but not impossible way to get rid of it, and it should shake up the way they play in an interesting way for it to be good. Try to target specific weak points at certain times, and at other times allow them to play out their full strength, and allow them to do what they can do best in combat. As a player, you should both know that your character contributes to combat because of their specific strengths, but also feel their weaknesses and find a way to deal with them when they come up, and here is where teamwork comes to shine. It doesn't need to be normal that something like this comes up, but every now and then it's needed

[@digitaljanus]

Am I wrong to interpret that the Resilient Sphere is also effectively cover for any creature standing _behind_ it? E.g., the PCs take out a Large brute-type enemy with this spell, and then advance by rolling the Sphere and walking behind it while the brute's ranged combat/spellcaster allies can't get a clear shot?

[@turtle_stew_Lukas]

To add to this, I had a similar experience with Antimagic Field. It is hard to challange high lvl parties in new ways and Anti Magic FIeld, if used carefully, can lead to a unique puzzle-like encounter. Especially, since the radius is not to big, casters can try to avoid it forcing more tactical movement. For hopefully there are other targets the party spellcasters can focus.And if you make sure the enemy casting it can be damaged by non magical items, it's a nice way to let the pure martial party members shine even in such a a high level scenario.

[@WarpKL]

Wow, I had a evil/not evil game where the BBG crossed paths with the payers part way through the campaign. The BBG used mass suggestion (took 3 cast) to recruit the PCs as his new Lieutenants to replace the one they just killed. The PCs spent the rest of the campaign leading armies and laying wast to the lands all while trying to brake the suggestion. When they finally did the common folk feared them and they where more than ready to go seek out the BBG.

[@davidpidcock5161]

Heh. Did that sound like a reasonable suggestion though? I'm pretty hard on using Suggestion as a dominate (both for and against players)

[@WarpKL]

@@davidpidcock5161 the spell give examples, and the examples set a low bar for "reasonable" so long as it is not "go jump off a cliff" I am not sure you are being fair to the spell/fun

[@davidpidcock5161]

​@@WarpKL This is my problem with Suggestion as a spell. It's very poorly specified, and can be either a go-to game-winner or a massive let-down and underperform. Having up to 12 people change sides for 24 hours is, frankly, overpowered for a 6th level spell. I have similar problems with Illusion magic, when people try to replicate Invisibility or other such effects by "putting an illusion of the terrain over my body". Nope.

[@WarpKL]

@@davidpidcock5161 sounds like a table I would not play at

[@davidpidcock5161]

​@@WarpKL Heh. Not sure whether I should take that personally or not ;) My players all seem to have a pretty good time. We all respect each other. No one tries to "exploit" the rules, and I haven't had to deal with Rules Lawyer types since I was in my 20's, thankfully. If that's not your style, well each to their own, I say. Happy Gaming.

[@mrbean3470]

Had to deal with banishment once as a player. I enjoyed the challenge of trying to break the concentration of the caster so we could get our teammate back. But if we had failed, man oh man it would have sucked for that player. Once they got banished, everybody else basically went all out against that one enemy until they died.

[@samholden5758]

Banishment is usually horrible - anything that removes a player from the game is, they are there to play after all. We did have one game where it was fun though - the characters weren't on their home plane, so there was a very large incentive to not let the time expire. But I had the character end up back in their home village - they were an elf who hadn't been home for a very long time so they got a few seconds of a hug and then popped back to a much more depressing place when the remaining characters ended the concentration. So the player got some roleplay instead of just sitting out.

[@minivergur]

I actually had a moment last week where as a dm, the group was fighting a night hag who I had planned to have silvery barbs. After the hag only sustained one hit the group sorcadin had a critical hit and It just felt so icky to me to use silvery that I ignored it - turned out he actually did almost 100 hp damage and killed her. It was an epic moment and thrilling for the player even though it cut short a bossfight. Made me think about this very topic just a week ago

[@79AlienFinger79]

I read a warning from a DM who gave a high level enemy (a Lich or something) Psychic Scream because it seemed interesting, and a spell the players had never had to deal with (and would likely never pick themselves). It didn't go well.

[@michaelwinter742]

Mass Suggestion: end of a combat where the players and villain respect each other, cast and say “love your best life.”

[@utkarshgaur1942]

Love these videos that touch on Game Health. There are a lot of questionable opinions out there on how every spell that a player uses should be fair game for DMs too. I think it's great when someone with your kind of platform pushes back against DM spells that remove engagement from players. This is why it's important to not always be the DM. Being a player every so often is a good reminder of how asymmetric the dynamics are between players and DM.

[@Prismatic_Rain]

"You end up creating an enemy that might be a challenge for the players, but more than anything it's annoying" I think you just summed up my style of DMing. 😶‍🌫

[@zyre212]

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere notably lacks the immunity to Dispel Magic that both Wall of Force and Forcecage have. From my experience, even a mid-level party could have the tools to deal with it.

[@knavesquill9198]

This is a great topic for a video; thank you for making it. As a DM it matters alot to me.

[@sethcourtad8733]

Hard crowd control is really only good for players running multiple characters. It feels bad to do nothing, but it feels good to have your pet/summon/follower act when you would otherwise be completely stunned

[@loganricard8713]

As a DM, I've using the power word spells. They make for an intimidating BBEG and for a cenimatic moment. You helplessly watch as the king falls dead as the evil wizard speaks in a forgotten language and says a evil word that sends shivers down your spines.

[@mattcline6338]

I think Feeblemind should get an honorable mention here. Fail your save and you can't communicate, cast spells, or really interact with the other characters in any meaningful way.

[@mattgopack7395]

Great idea for a video - and yeah, spells that incapacitate a player with no ongoing save, it's really rough. There's some on those that I'd use from time to time, but really only suboptimally (eg, hitting a bard who has misty step with forcecage, or using a phantom steed but staying within range of the party). Where it's annoying/a challenge, but there are ways around it. But generally, taking away player agency is rough - especially if it's multi-round, where they might have to wait a half hour and do nothing. I prefer to use Tasha's mind whip style effects for that, or "you are stunned next round unless you take Xd10 dmg", which they get a choice on. Antimagic Field (or similar abilities) are some that I quite like - but more for positioning. There needs to be a way for the magic-using PCs to maneuver out of the field - and then in the process, potentially put themselves at risk. In which case, I think it works well at reshuffling the battlefield from time to time. Something to use sparingly, and not in the same way a competent party would use it (pinning the enemy/grappling them in the effect of the field), but making the spellcasters sweat for a bit can be fun :P

[@BeaDSM]

Fortune's Favour is good for the DM to use if it's an NPC giving a blessing/boon to players before they go into a big fight or travel through a dungeon.

[@AlgaeGaming]

Videos like this where you give opinions/advice on spells you wanna talk about are really great. I felt like there were spells you wanted to talk about more in the PHB survey, but the time just wasn't there for it. Next one will be flipped obviously, but: Maybe a future video on "hard to use spells"? You said about Hunger of Hadar, something along the lines of "It's okay but most players don't know how to use it well". Would love to hear how you think some more niche spells are best used!

[@lankarddkl8722]

This is great advice for new DMs! Since you mentioned Otiluke's Resilient Sphere in the video and in regard to the awesome One-Shot you recently played with Dungeon Dudes and D4 Deep Dive, I would like your opinion concerning the follow interaction: a Cleric cast Warding Bond on a Fighter, then Wizard cast Otiluke's Resilient Sphere on Cleric. What happens? Does Warding Bond still work but the Cleric takes no damage? Or the Sphere prevent Warding Bond from working at all? Obviously this example is an awful use of spells, but you could obtain the same with an Artificer Battlesmith lvl 13, Spell-Storing Item with Warding Bond given to the Steel Defender and Otiluke's Resilient Sphere casted by the Artificer.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I believe the warding bond would still work as written as long as it's cast before the sphere is created.

[@hieronymusnervig8712]

I actually like Hypnotic Pattern for the very same reason you dislike it. I've had combats before, where a player failed 4 or 5 saves in a row (sad Barbarian-who-dumped-Wisdom noises). With Hypnotic Pattern that won't happen, unless your other players are really bad teamplayers.

[@crimfan]

Wow, your players were morons... of course I've seen plenty of players who don't seem to get the whole "help your party" aspect of the game.

[@hieronymusnervig8712]

@@crimfan for dumping Wisdom? Nah man, I don't think of suboptimal stat distributions of bad.

[@crimfan]

@@hieronymusnervig8712 The players dumped Wisdom, it sounds like. It's not that they dumped a particular stat on their characters, but that they don't know how to use teamwork to overcome that weakness. Waking people up from Hypnotic Pattern can be done using friendly fire. It's not hard. Dump a low level AoE spell on your party. Or cast Magic Missile and hit multiple people with it. Or Eldritch Blast. etc. Yeah you take a bit of damage but you get the action economy back. A martial with multiple attacks can also get multiple folks back running pretty easily.

[@hieronymusnervig8712]

@@crimfan I've said that I LIKE Hypnotic Pattern specifically BECAUSE the players can interrupt it. What I've seen destroy people is saves. I've seen people no succeed on a single save over an entire combat. I've yet to see Hypnotic pattern incapacitate players for more than 2 turns.

[@crimfan]

@@hieronymusnervig8712 I think it's a lot better than Banishment, for sure.

[@Acranify]

suprised Feeblemind dident make the list, considering that unless who was hit has a friend who can use greater restoration or the like, they are going to effectivly be stuck like that forever.

[@dustinrudisill6695]

I agree on most accounts except for Phantom Steed, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, and Fear. The Steed scenario that you talked about just sounded like the Lord of the Rings scene where the group was trying to outrun the orcs on wolf-back. I've played it out a few times with normal mounts. If the PCs run, you get LotR. If they stay and fight, you get a cowboys vs indians scene. ORS, I have personally seen used as a great way to grant mobile cover. Seen it used on a monk in a hallway and on a mounted paladin in an open area. Both worked to great effect as body blocking for friends. Lastly, fear might be more specific because I have a player that really likes playing paladins. When the anti-fear aura has to be used to keep the party from running from a caster or dragon; the fights just felt very dynamic, where everyone had a role to play in the fight. Also works when you have a caster with Calm Emotions always prepared. These are my experiences, so take that how you will. Wanted to share why I don't think some of these are bad for a DM to use on players.

[@brianpious3242]

I agree with your analysis on many of these spells. Building story moments for some of these spells can be very useful, making them more fun. For example a PC was banished, revealing to them that they are not native to the plane they currently have been living on. And the plane they are native to has been conquered by demons and devils, giving them enemies to fight themselves while the rest of the party deals with the concentration issue.

[@Otaconsps]

Hoping your next video covers spells that handle players in a way that is interesting for them but doesn't totally remove them from fights. Thanks for all your content!

[@Mastikator]

My DM once ran a dungeon where half of all of the monsters could cast Fear. The other half had permanent darkness cast on them and since they were all devils they all had devil sight. Most battles I couldn't do anything. I think he was going for "spooky" but it ended up being "frustrating" and "boring".

[@Johnny_Shields]

I interpret "hate as a DM" to mean which spells make DMing harder. Things like goodberry, fly, phantom steed, and that "make a house" spell.

[@Fabelaz]

I'd argue goodberry makes it easier to dm since you don't have to worry about survival of your party when they happen to travel.

[@gray007nl]

You're a very boring DM if you dislike a spell like Mighty Fortress

[@digitaljanus]

@@Fabelaz Sure, but usually if you want a gritty survival type game, something like goodberry completely torpedoes it, whereas if you don't want PCs worrying about survival, you just handwave it and assume they can find the food they need. Goodberry ruins the first game's fun while being mostly irrelevant to the second game. (Yes, I'm ignoring the healing aspect of the spell for the purposes of this argument.)

[@Johnny_Shields]

@@gray007nl Not that one. Magnificent Mansion. Same problem as Goodberry.

[@gray007nl]

@@Johnny_Shields Magnificent Mansion is a 7th level spell, like you're kidding yourself if you think players are going to be foraging for food by that point.

[@TheRobversion1]

phantom steed is 1 of the reasons why optimal parties shouldnt have melee members that arent mounts, summons or pets. range is king in 5e. range with superior mobility much more so.

[@conradkorbol]

Oh no I cast darkness or have a blizzard. None of the spell caster can see or can only see 5ft. 99% of their spells no longer work. We should have had a fighter lol

[@TheRobversion1]

@@conradkorbol that melee fighter would have disadvantage to hit and need to guess the space where the enemy is in as per heavy obscurement rules. there's no such thing as a blizzard spell. did you mean ice storm? if it's ice storm the fighter (i presume you mean melee fighters as ranged fighters are effective), will be slowed down further and will be ineffective until they get out of the difficult terrain. a ranged fighter can just sharpshooter attack in the difficult terrain.

[@DragonKingSkye]

@@TheRobversion1 If the enemy can't see in magical darkness, it's not at disadvantage to attack, due to Unseen Attacker rules. Flat role for some reason, lol.

[@haerdalis84]

@@DragonKingSkye yup disadvantage gets cancelled out by advantage on attacks vs blinded enemies. You still have to guess where the target is.

[@TheRobversion1]

@@DragonKingSkye IF. it's entirely plausible as well that the enemy can. either way, again casters who have non-sight spells have an advantage here. anyway you shake it really players with ranged/spell options are simply superior to pure melee combatants. oh and yeah i do know it's a flat roll.

[@samuelbroad11]

these are some great and inventive 5e video ideas.

[@sovelis7727]

It's interesting that your reasoning for Fortune's Favor and Silvery Barbs can also be applied to the legendary resistance mechanic. Every time this happens as a player, it definitely feels bad. Have you played around at all with replacing / changing the legendary resistance mechanic?

[@lord6617]

I despise both legendary resistance and counterspell because they are explicitly anti-fun mechanics.

[@jiminkpen9750]

I think legendary resistance is necessary in 5e. Without it spellcasters are even more unstoppable. It's not fun for your martials when your roll up to an encounter and [aoe control] takes the bbeg and his minions out, fight over.

[@socialjihad5724]

@@lord6617 the overall all or nothing nature of a lot of 5e mechanics I think is one of the major weaknesses of the system. Even without Legendary Resistances or counter spells, so many spells either break the encounter or just fall flat with no effect

[@sovelis7727]

@@jiminkpen9750 yeah I definitely think some sort of mechanic in necessary here to prevent certain spell effects from ending major encounters. Perhaps this could be in the form of limiting the duration certain status effects can impact the creature, or perhaps even giving the creature immunity to some of the more debilitating effects (we see this a lot at least with charmed and frightened). Ultimately, I haven't come up with anything that can reasonably replace legendary resistance. What I have been testing out, though, is requiring legendary resistance to use up a legendary action. That way, a successful spell cast at least does something, and if a creature uses up all its actions, it leaves itself vulnerable.

[@lord6617]

@@sovelis7727 Now that is something that makes sense. Adding that legendary resistance costs 1 or 2 legendary actions both rewards players for casting those spells that demand a legendary resistance, and also requires DMs to more carefully spend their legendary actions, which then actually benefits martials and non-casters because they are more frequently in the face of Legendary Creatures and the target of Legendary Actions.

[@PsyrenXY]

I think hypnotic pattern does present interesting tactical considerations for the players though. Even if a monster can hit the whole party, some players will usually succeed on their save. Do those players shake one person free at a time? Do they damage a bunch of players with attacks or AoE to free them? Do they focus on breaking the monsters concentration? Do they ignore the effect entirely and focus on ending the fight? That's an interesting choice for the party, even if they go with the last one and the affected players are out for a couple of rounds. And even if you take out the entire party with this, you still probably have to damage them to try and kill them, which ends the effect. I can't think of a scenario where hypnotic pattern on the players means combat ends the way it does on the monsters.

[@3of6mylove]

Intelligent enemies, nearby cliff/lava pit. Everyone fails their save, enemies gently push them off ledge one by one. Just because you can't damage/shake them, doesn't mean you can't carefully move them, or just pick them up.

[@adriel8498]

Completely agree with the list. I just realized that vortex warp can be used to help allies to get out of force cages

[@omarbazavilvazo4660]

Really fun and interesting video, thanks!

[@mikeshardmind]

I like force cage as a DM... but only when used with specific intent. I once ran an encounter where the players were only level 9 (multiple full spell casters in this party though) and it was their first meeting with the BBEG. The BBEG, both thinking themselves and actually being above the players just drops a force cage on the entire group, a cloudkill, and then leaves. The encounter is now how they get out of the situation. There is no persistent threat from the BBEG, he's left and he doesn't even care if they survive. The cloudkill is continuous damage and blocks some forms of teleportation (those needing sight). As a DM, I knew the players had tools to deal with it, including just using something like gust of wind to disperse the cloudkill and wait out the hour if they couldn't come up with much else. It was a moment to introduce a villain (that they later got to engage on more equal terms and kill) and to just see them deal with a problem.

[@Spoopball]

Antimagic field 8th level, Globe of invulnerability (cast it at 9th). Immune to all spells because of antimagic (including 9th levels) but because of globe, be unaffected by antimagic so you can do what you want with your own spells/items

[@ascer117]

How would you concentrate on both? Also Antimagic Field prevents casting spells inside it's area

[@Spoopball]

@@ascer117 checking my math* Sees both spells require concentration* Apparently I can't add. The combo would require globe to be cast first, as the ruling of the spell states those affected completely immune to spells as if magic do not exist within the confines of the globe Legally being done, I would assume a friend would then cast the antimagic on you

[@antongrigoryev6381]

Antimagic Field would cancel Globe of Invulnerability if they overlap. The creatures inside the globe may be immune, but nothing says that the globe itself can't be dispelled/suppressed.

[@goatmeal5241]

I would add feeblemind to this list. Basically the same logic as banishment but there's no enemy concentration to break, it's just a permanent deletion of any caster, based on a single save. If your party has greater restoration, it's just a boring spell slot trade like resilient sphere. If not, someone has to throw their character's dignity out the window and RP a mentally-disabled person until you can get to someone who does... very sketchy and uncomfortable position to be in. I guess I don't love it as a player either, but at least allows for some "nonviolent" neutralization of enemy mages. The 30-day re-saves are made with an Int score of 1, so even casters with Int save proficiency will probably be out for many months.

[@nathansmith9597]

I agree with your assessments, I'd just note that some of these spells can be good tools for the DM if used carefully. I'd be very wary of banishing or forcecaging a PC, but it can be appropriate to remove an NPC ally from the fight. If the players can break concentration or figure out a way to rescue the NPC from the cage, they get to benefit from having that ally for the rest of the fight. (Maybe I'd houserule that the enemy's forcecage can be dispelled, but if they use a slot of 3rd to 6th level, they make the roll to dispel at disadvantage.) If they don't get the NPC back in the fight, that's fine - at least none of the players had to sit out the encounter. Likewise, Wall of Force is a great "puzzle" to put in front of the players. The adventurers come upon the cultists in the middle of some evil ritual, but find that they cannot just rush in for combat -- there's already a wall of force in effect, blocking the hallway. (Obviously, only do this for characters that are at a decent level and have some methods to potentially deal with it.) Mass Suggestion is a great way for a villain to have a bunch of innocent NPCs assisting them, making the combat much more interesting -- some players won't care about collateral damage, while others will try to avoid the townsfolk or will seek to neutralize them without doing permanent harm. You are correct that these are spells that DMs have to use sparingly, and very carefully, or else they will spoil players' fun. But when used appropriately, they are good tools to have.

[@shotgunridersweden]

This is a great point what is fun when the players do it and whats fun when the dm does it, are not the same. This also goes for monster effects. I was in a game recently with a bunch of Harpies, almost all the players failed their saves, it was a very boring and frustrating battle.

[@irwingbrasil]

A Lot of those spells can bem used as a DM as a storytelling Tool. Mass suggestion casted at 9th can be used to force a time Skip for example.

[@cp1cupcake]

I'm kinda surprised that Counterspell/Dispel Magic didn't make the list. Same with Feeblemind and Plane Shift. Odd suggestion for this list: Chill Touch. Using it, especially on players who are very low or already out is really nasty. It never really clicked for me how nasty this is until I played Solasta. A couple of the boss's like it there.

[@Mare_Man]

I feel like Counterspell/Dispel are fair game for most people, since practically every caster who can get them will.

[@JayneCobb88]

I feel like other than the dunemancy stuff, most of these are just players who suck at creativity. Hypnotic Pattern - hit your buddy, break caster concentration, darkness to counter the visual pattern, burning hands to wake up all your buddies, force an enemy to cast another concentration spell Phantom Steed - cast your own, hold action to attack the steed, fly, stealth, take cover, ranged attacks, snares, illusions to funnel Banishment - break concentration, force enemy to cast another concentration spell, stealth away and wait for buddy to return. Also your buddy’s turn should NOT be skipped. They can drink potions, heal or buff up, ready action to attack. Resilient Sphere - same as banishment. Except the buddy is still aware of what’s going on Forcecage - Polymorph or shapechange into a fly. Range attack through the bars. Cast spells through the bars. Fortify your position within the cage. Take a rest. Mass Suggestion - too much DM agency to rate Antimagic spell - probably cast by a powerful caster. Step inside and flip them the bird. Or step on the opposite side and use it as magical cover Maze - 8th level spell. Better than hitting everyone with horrid wilting. Fear - not party friendly. Wis saves are important. Your buddies can buff you. Everyone else can run away too. Here’s the the thing. D&D is a team game. These spells can be used by DMs to shut down some characters, the other side of the coin is to say “shine the spotlight on other characters”

[@nathansmith9597]

Sure, these spells might not ruin characters' fun, in every situation, but they have the potential to be unfun. Also, while I would personally allow some (not all) of your proposed solutions to work, a lot of them go against RAW. Hypnotic Pattern does not create a lasting pattern, it flickers for a moment and then vanishes, so casting Darkness after the fact would have no effect. Banishment incapacitates the banished creature, so no, they can't actually do any of the things you mention. Forcecage can have bars, OR it can be a solid box (caster's choice). Again, I might allow some of those at my table, but if I need to run the spell differently than RAW when I cast them as a DM, isn't that kind of proving Treantmonk's point?

[@deathtoexistance]

I used some volos guide humanoids recently, one of which had banishment as an option. Party has two warlocks a cleric dmpc and a roguebarian, so upcasting it didn't do much but did manage to get rid of the roguebarian with it. I did so midway through the fight when it wasn't going well for the enemies, roguebarian lost a turn then my dmpc (although the warlocks could do this too) banished the caster, dropping banishment and basically ending the fight in the players favour. I think in this case it went fine since the enemy that could cast banishment was one of 5 strong enemies and the rest couldn't, plus the party was at a level where they could deal with banishment with plenty of ranged and spell options. I can see where it could be a problem especially with the more potent versions of these sorts of spells, but I do think it can be a useful challenge once in a while if it is limited in who it can affect. Completely agree that if I made that same enemy capable of casting several 6+ level banishments until the party was all gone it would be a problem, same with mass suggestion fear or hypnotic pattern. I think big spells like that should always have the concentration get out of jail card and should be at most less than half your party as possible targets of them. Depending on the party these spells are more or less of a problem, my party has lots of people capable of fighting melee and ranged, so an anti magic field wouldn't be as devastating despite having mostly casters since they're hexblades, but for other parties relying on magic almost exclusively its a game ender. Any way there's a fine line to walk and I'm glad you've put the discussion of these sorts of spells out thar at least as a cautionary note.

[@haydenrock8952]

One thing you might have missed is that failing to teleport out of Forcecage does not prevent you from trying again, it just made that attempt fail. You can keep trying with additional teleports.

[@lord6617]

Things that invalidate the mechanics of the game make everyone feel bad. Legendary Resistance, for example. 1/4 of the spells out of the PHB you never bother even casting at a "Boss" monster because it is just going to legendary resist. I have a wizard in my current group who has used Disintegrate on 3 seperate occasions, and each time the monster had legendary resistance and used it. How does that player feel, do you think?

[@sethcourtad8733]

I mean if players know what legendary resistance is they can make good decisions. Give that player good targets for disintegrate, but bosses are bad targets for a lot of spells because a single spell can just end the encounter.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Disintegrate should do half damage on a successful save really.

[@lord6617]

@@sethcourtad8733 "Bosses are bad targets for a lot of spells" = Bad game design, especially when you have classes like warlocks, sorcerers, who have very limited spell selections. I understand that it is the game design and it's not changing, but it doesn't mean I can't hate it.

[@antongrigoryev6381]

While true to some extent, it's a necessary evil I believe. There are so many devastating spells and conditions in the game, that if Legendary Resistance wasn't a thing, bosses would be just useless as a single successful cast would be able to destroy them no matter their abilities. I recently had a fight with a Vampire. After burning all his Legendary Resistances, he fell to a single Hold Monster and was just devastated as a result. But at least we got several rounds of intense combat, and the ending was all the more epic because of that. What if we could catch him like that right away? It would be just boring number-beating. Plus, Legendary Resistance gives players an interesting challenge to overcome. If they know the boss has it, they will try to take it out so they can end the fight with all those cool spells, and how they would do that is a matter of interest. Assuming the DM says when the boss uses Legendary Resistance (and I believe it's fair to say such info), it actually turns the boss fight into, well, a boss fight where you need to accomplish certain things instead of just beating down the enemy.

[@agilemind6241]

I used to think like that until I started DMing mid-tier parties. When you get to Tier 2/3 a single spell can just end the boss, and a boss encounter that lasts 1 round is not fun or statisfying for anyone. Thus the choice is either to give BBEGs really high saving throws & Magic Resistance or give them Legendary Resistance. Which means, giving monster Legendary Resistance actually means the monster will fail more saving throws overall, which is more fun for the players, while also ensuring at least 3 round of combat during Boss encounters. TBH I think players give up too easily on saving throw spells vs Legendary Resistance. Three Legendary Resistances don't last that long when you've got multiple players with control options.

[@shawnpeterson2523]

Treantmonk, I've been thinking. I really enjoyed your recent one shot (although I think it was really a two-shot). Any chance we could see you run one of the sessions you do with your patrons?

[@TheAdditionalPylons]

Had a session where the DM immediately stuck our barbarian into a Forcecage where he grunted angrily for the whole encounter. Poor Bastard.

[@sohkaswifteagle2604]

Mass Suggestion: No player want to fight their own team mate... Sure yeah it's usually go against the players and character morales or what not... But some of the most memorable memory I have of some game I joined, are when a mindflayer took control of my character ad my DM told me to kill my party. I still have agencies, I still control my character, I still play the game, but I can attack my friends without them being allowed to be mad at me (and vice versa I cannot get mad at them for defending themself... as long as they stop shy of killing me) It was fun and everyone at the table laught. Those thinking that I'm n optimizer because I play a race that gave stat bonus to the main stat of my class (it was before Tasha) witnesses that my character still had flaw, (mainly wisdom saving throws) player who were rival with my character were about to test themself out (kind of like Goku VS Majin Vegeta) I had a reason to go full out; something I rarely do since a day of adventure rarely have a single combat, so blowing all your ressources on a single combat can be fun, but a bad idea, so it was fun to see what I could do if I wasn't restraining myself The DM had fun since he didn't had to deal with my character and saw trick how the party dealt with my strategies So everyone had fun. Obviously son't abuse of that strategy, doign it every other encounter might become repetitive, but a once in a blue moon, it change the paces and force the player to think on their feet and find a solution Anti magic field. The barbarian or fighter special abilities are not magical effect making them shine during that encounter (and being concentration, they can go work on breaking that concentration) anti magic field sure it make the wizard useless (ok sure they can throw a finess thrown dagger for 1d4+2 damage) but how if that different then a flying creature (or the fly spell) versus a paladin, a barbarian or any melee focus build. that big shiny magical +3 greatsword or soul eating is just as worthless against that flying dragon

[@RobKinneySouthpaw]

2:00 this. I want spells that will feel threatening, that will create crazy effects, or even just pile on some damage. I want stuff that controls the battlefield in a way that takes creativity or forces a choice to overcome, not in ways that just take away actions or something.

[@Torthrodhel]

There's a way you could use any of the "takes a player out of the game" spells on a scary enemy who makes sense having them or you want to use as an example to players "don't fight this one yet!" or something. Have some NPC (or perhaps several) join the party in the fight. Have your baddie cast it against those allies, and have the players look on in horror of what could possibly happen to them. That way no actual player is sitting there on pause waiting for the game to start again.

[@VuvuzelaTM]

I do like hipnotyc pattern as a DM, cause it's easy to remove, it creates interesting choice to the players, do I use my turn or do I wake up an ally. And they actually ce with creative ways to wake up more than a player at once.

[@Maxbeedo2]

After we started playing online (Fantasy Grounds), our DM always groaned every time the party Shepherd Druid cast Conjure Animals. Beyond having to add all the tokens to the board and run them himself instead of the player due to some token ownership issues (might have been fixed with an update), if there were enough other tokens on the map it would lag the game for everyone.

[@shanebernier2483]

The only one of these I disagree with at all is Antimagic Field, and even that one just because of a fantastic DM I had a while back. As part of a West Marches campaign, he introduced an enemy military force who were notorious for having items that produced antimagic fields while the wearer was alive and were easily concealed, but were costly to create and as such only one in every 3-4 enemies actually carried one. This made a really interesting dynamic in large-scale combats where a lot of the strategy boiled down to the following: - Figure out which enemies have the antimagic item (usually by chucking spells and summons at groups and seeing where they popped out of existence) - Get the martials in the day's group to focus fire on the enemies producing antimagic fields to remove the effect while casters find things to do in other areas (like altering the environment or buffing archers) - Have the mages CC and AoE any enemies around when the field went down while the martial moved to a new target or retreated from the antimagic to be healed (since they just spent 2-3 turns wading through enemy lines and getting attacked by pretty much everything).

[@michaelhenman4887]

Personally, I prefer to view suggestion/mass suggestion as allowing you to achieve something that could be conceivably be done with an extremely charisma check. It makes it easier to define what counts as 'reasonable' and stops the spell from being OP in the way you described. That way, it is a very effective spell against the BBEG who uses fickle mercenaries as minions, but not so good in the fights where the BBEG has a horde of loyal underlings that will willingly fight to the death.

[@mitchc6059]

I was expecting polymorph to at least get an honorable mention.

[@FlameUser64]

Additional problem with Fear: so, the fighter is wielding a fancy Flametongue greatsword that you gave him. Then he fails his save against Fear, and he drops his Flametongue and runs away. Now the enemy walks over and uses their object interaction to pick up the Flametongue. Or, maybe the entire party fails their saves and flees as fast as they can as a result, and the enemy gets to loot _aaall_ their weapons and shields and spellcasting focii. Plus, if your feats or class features increase your speed, those are now turned against you because you are forced to flee. It's very possible for a player character to outright leave the dungeon as a result of Fear before they make their save, or for them to unknowingly flee into another encounter which they now must solo while the rest of the party continues the first encounter.

[@travisdunlap4526]

Was quite surprised not to see counterspell on this list for similar reasons as many of the others....its ability to completely shut a player down, as well as waste one of their spell resources for no benefit.

[@Spectrality47]

I think the only time getting stuck in an anti magic field would be genuinely interesting for the players is if they all have artifacts, as artifacts aren’t affected. It could make for very interesting combat to try and use various artifacts to the best of their abilities

[@ryanthomasjones]

I thought I might see counterspell on this list. I'd love to hear your thoughts about counterspell as a DM and how you feel about it. It seems similar to some of your other spells, where it takes away player agency and makes things less fun.

[@eldoriath1]

Can only agree on this. Especially after meeting Tiamat as a draconic bloodline sorcerer and finding out I had one spell slot that she wasn't immune to but no real spells that was useful for it. Was a long going campaign that started when only PHB sorcerer's existed and I skilled my character more by theme than meta-effectiveness, but as a spellcaster meeting something that is immune to spells that are below lvl 7... You feel kinda useless, especially as a sorcerer that generally speaking have limited utility and buffs.

[@lordravne]

Really appreciate this list because the reason you don't like it as a DM is because it reduces group fun and not from a power-gamer perspective

[@davidrose7938]

All the cantrips that make basic survival easy-mode. As a DM I like the idea of adding a little more tension if there is the potential of running out of torches, oil, food, etc. I can make these things available or not as the setting I’m hoping to establish dictates.

[@davidrose7938]

@@mogalixir not a survival game, just a mechanic to ratchet up tension for the human players. 5e is easy mode as far as editions go. My response of spells I did not appreciate as a DM that I love as a player is for the algorithm. Not going to try to convince anyone.

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

I see Fortunes favor as returning the epic speech to your villains

[@Godzillawolf1]

I think one of the worst uses of Anti-Magic Field against the players is in Rime of the Frostmaiden. The Trial of Endurances forces the players to make a forced march for 14 hours. That's six hours of forced march, each of which can result in a level of exhaustion and there are enough that characters can die, or be left completely crippled. That's bad, but okay, you could maybe use some magic craziness to bypass it or increase the odds of succeeding the saving throw, like having the Cleric cast Bless every hour before the saving throw or use Enlarge/Reduce to shrink players down so other ones can carry them to trade off, or have the Moon Druid Wild Shape into a Giant Elk or other creature large enough and carry several party members (possibly a all of them) the entire length of their wild shapes (which depending on level, could be nearly the entire eight hours), then wild shape into a cat and rest in their bag while they're fresh...but the entire march is in an Anti-Magic Field. IE, no Wild Shape, no Bless, nothing but the luck of the dice and your own constitution save. And to me, that's not fair because effectively, the party has zero actual control over the situation barring very specific class or racial abilities, and their character could come out of this crippled for the rest of the adventuring day or flat out dead with zero chance of reviving them (as the only spell they'd have to revive a dead player at this point is Revivfy, and Gentle Repose can't be used). Granted, the Trials of the Frostmaiden are awful in general, but that Anti-Magic Field is the definition of unfair. I really don't know what the game devs were thinking on that one.

[@theMrLife]

I'm totally agreeing with you on most spells. Hypnotic pattern I generally also agree, but I like this spell in this way, that other characters can shake their friends out of it. So there is a possibility to actually do something, to end the spells effect. Should be used carefully though, like trying to also give the players the opportunity to free their friends, not just, you know, bash them down...

[@benjaminkowal7310]

Carefully designed encounters and maps can make hypnotic pattern fun...As a player I find it hard not to metagame it though...I have to remember if the character I am playing knows what will wake-up other characters.

[@theMrLife]

@@benjaminkowal7310 I thought about that. 2 thoughts: First: I always assume that the characters don't live in a vacuum. They talk in the tavern to other adventurers. They talk about tactics with their group. They might have a wizard in their group. They might have seen "Sleep". So they might know, or be able to guess. Second: imagine your were an experienced adventurer and your buddy would suddenly stop fighting and stare into space. Would your reaction be to shake him and see if you can get him out of it? Or rather like: "Nah, guy's lost, gotta fight on without 'im." Sure, not everyone might do this (nonintelligent monsters probably not), but it MIGHT be a reaction. Just my thoughts on an understandable question.

[@VuvuzelaTM]

Banishment is cruel! But I saw some DM use it brilhantly to flee a combat, or try to bargain a non lethal end to it, I think it's a reversed finger of death: the same way finger of death is a nice spell to start the combat, because it raises the stakes, but an unfair spell to use after some turns, banishment is a fair spell to use at the end of combats, but it's just unfair to start the combat with it

[@nevertoonate]

My favorite part of Maze is that minotaurs and goristros automatically succeed. It’s a fun way to incorporate mythology.

[@JuckiCZ]

Casting fear on grappled enemy has to be insane! His speed is 0, so he uses dash every turn, but cannot run anywhere. He also stays in the line of sight with caster for the whole duration, so you can just hit him for 10 rounds for free and cannot fight back. Fantastic spell! The same happens in Web. He cannot use actions to break webs, but his dashing actions are doing nothing with 0 Speed :-D.

[@nnzfmly]

I played an old Adventure League module Quelling the Horde and got to sit out the entire final fight (which took our group almost 2 hours!) because I failed 1 saving throw and was charmed in round 1 of combat. This was a 1 day charm and did not require concentration from the enemy.

[@havasimark]

There are two NPC's in the final cave that can charm a PC. At one time I got the same character with both. The player took it in stride and we took care of the combats quickly. It is still something he remembers. And takes resilient wisdom _very_ early on most of his characters.

[@WildVii]

I would like a video re: Legendary Resistance. I've always maintained that it's presence in the game not only disrupts verisimilitude, but it just 'nopes' away awesome abilities, much the same way that Fortune's Favor does.

[@keylimepython641]

But without it, any boss can be cheesed instantly.

[@WildVii]

@@keylimepython641 I disagree, as I think it a crutch that replaces DM creativity. I’ve said in previous comments, that there are more creative ways to deal with high level abilities that work within cannon and don’t render all of the time your players spend leveling to get awesome abilities completely pointless. Plus as the DM, you can create an out that’s more dramatic and let’s the player do awesome shit without just ‘noping’ it away.

[@DavidSilverman-darktoad]

If you have a problem with Hypnotic Pattern, wait til you read the Harpy statblock… Get a flock of them into an encounter (multiple saves and likely fail on at least one) from super long range, and have them kite the whole party off a cliff…

[@RobKinneySouthpaw]

I noticed reading the stat block of the Yuan tea that they have suggestion. My immediate reaction has the DM was "oh crap, I better not use this in any meaningful way other than to tell the PCs to get lost, unless I have the whole Yuan-ti dungeon and some escape mission stuff planned. Because with three or four Yuan-ti with three suggestions each... Well there's a high chance one or all of them are completely going to be following the suggestion "sheathe your weapons and come with ussss," and at best the one guy who passed all his saves is going to try to pretend he didn't.

[@smile-tl9in]

i do think wall of force fit in the list for the same reasons forcecage do. Especially since it can appear at levels players don't have counters like disintegrate. It take them out of the fight with no save. Did you forget to add it to the list ?

[@PiiskaJesusFreak]

Banishment seems like interesting spell to use against players if the targeted player continues playing in the other plane. Especially if the player is not in their native plane. Would be really hard to DM that though.

[@goose6752]

I was surprised that Counterspell didn't make the list for the same reasons as Fortune's Favor: stealing a player's thunder ("I did a cool thing!" -- "Nope. No you didn't.")

[@DnDDeepDive]

I am now going to fully anticipate that you use nothing but these spells against us on our next collab 😂😂😭😭

[@TreantmonksTemple]

lol! Plane shift flashbacks?

[@DnDDeepDive]

@@TreantmonksTemple Ha ha... perhaps :P

[@EclecticHermit]

As someone who’s played in high level games where the DMs(it was a west march campaign) liberally used antimagic field, I could not agree more. I was playing a single-classed high level cleric, while most of the other players were multiclassed gish characters, and all that spell ever did was stop me from contributing, when I wasn’t even a problem PC. Also, I understand why it’s not on this list, but Planeshift is another example of a spell that you shouldn’t use on a player character. The fact that it requires both an attack roll and a saving throw means that it’s unlikely to succeed, but because of the number of actions you get as a DM, one of the players will fail eventually, and that player just doesn’t get to play anymore. Admittedly, this isn’t as bad as the other examples you shared because theoretically the player can planeshift themselves to return to the fight, but using this spell requires so much care that I feel it should just be avoided as DM.

[@jackschwitzer3006]

Phantom Steed: Any equipment created by the spell vanishes in a puff of smoke if it is carried more than 10ft away from the steed. Me: Puts the saddle on the ground next to steed, take my steed and hide in the woods nearby. The Saddle: RAW: **Stays there until someone picks it up**

[@alanschaub147]

Action = Upcast Command: “Approach!” Action Surge: = Fear Reaction = Opportunity Attacks for everyone! 😁

[@alpturan7897]

That would make a cool two-headed boss with its minions! The two heads always bicker and use opposing (but synergistic) spells like this.

[@alanschaub147]

@@alpturan7897 That’s a cool idea!

[@indigoblacksteel1176]

I was wondering if you were going to mention conjuration spells, especially upcast conjuration spells. If it's not part of a planned encounter, I try to avoid making the DM's turn balloon into taking up most of the combat. Between having to look up the abilities of new monsters and actually running them, this can increase the time of encounters by a lot. The DM has enough to handle with encounters without adding even more to their plate and thus reduce the time the players have. I become less worried about this if the characters have area of effect abilities to reduce these numbers quickly, but even so, getting a bunch of new monsters set up can be a chore--unless it's pre-planned, of course..

[@kilpatds]

As a whole class of spells I hate as a DM when players cast it: spells that remove a pillar of the game. Stealth Challenges and Pass w/o Trace... or puzzles and various divination spells. "I don't want to interact with this portion of the game, so I cast "ignore portion of the adventure""

[@phoenix_viridis]

One of the reasons I became a DM was because I had a DM started off our adventure in an enclosed room where we had to fight our way out. The problem was that we had to fight against another level 1 party that had optimized designed for two things. Winning initiatives and casting sleep. We all died slow isolated deaths and the DM asked us if we wanted to try again. I did some quick math and realized that our only chance of winning was based on our low odds of winning initiative. Even if we won, it was just an exercise of playing the odds.

[@kirin347]

Pretty adversarial setup, I wouldn't do it. But it would be fun to retry with everyone switched to elves/ half elves. I wonder if the DM would adjust his team to compensate or just take the L.

[@phoenix_viridis]

@kirin347 he probably would have allowed it, but I spent a month writing the back story for my character, and I just wanted to roleplay 😅.

[@thomazeblen]

a handful of those spells sounds great on stradh spellbook

[@scooder33413]

Otiluke Sphere spell, when you cast the spell everything in that 30ft area is contained... correct? So if you have some fuel and a fire source ( other player perhaps ).. you could throw the fuel on an enemy and light them on fire, capture them in the sphere and while they are burning and burning up the breathable air inside within the 1 minute timer you would either have a dead enemy or a very damaged one.

[@insertphrasehere15]

I agree with everything except Antimagic field. In that case it's just how you use it. Yeah just having the fight happen in an antimagic field is boring, but having a field that comes on/off at various times, changing the rules of the combat can be awesome.

[@ChristnThms]

As a DM, I basically stick to the same criteria you use to rate spells' effectiveness, but reversed, for use against players. Single Save control spells, like HypPat are obvious danger zones. But a Save Every Round spell like Hold Person, is fine. An area damage spell on its own, like Fireball, is fine at levels 7 and up. But the persistent damage spells, like Hunger of Hadar or Sickening Radiance, are a danger zone. Even single target spells that will drop one PC are OK, at times, as long as prudent action by the party will get them back on their feet. Disintegrate, on the other hand, is a nope.

[@Throrface]

I thought Wall of Force would be here, but you did include Force Cage which is very similar.

[@raikirah975]

I think you’re missing out on the optimum DM usage of Hypnotic Pattern here, Chris - it’s not a spell for an adversary to use in the *middle* of combat, but rather a way to *prevent* combat entirely. How many times have you had a group that hates to let your villains monologue? Or to escape? I know my players will go to *absurd* lengths to keep a villain from getting away, even when I’ve signaled to them pretty damn blatantly that the enemy they’re facing isn’t looking to necessarily kill them, but rather just wants them out of the way. Hypnotic Pattern is great for that. Especially useful is a Spell Glyph of Warding set up with the effect, as it frees up the enemy’s Concentration to let them Incapacitate any of the PCs who Save against the HP - I’ve actually used this very combo along with a Dominate Person on a PC whose player wanted to retire the character in favor of another one. The enemy made off with the old PC who became a Lieutenant in said enemy’s forces, and the party had to recruit a skilled tracker to hunt them down and free them from the mind control (and guess who wanted to try out a Ranger as a bounty hunter?). I know that you tend to think of things here in terms of their combat effectiveness, and fair enough - but spells that aren’t great for DMs in a combat sense often have really great and underused storytelling applications. Anyway, just my two copper pieces.