TRENCH CRUSADE VS BATTLETECH - What does a small company need to do to get on a retailers shelf??

[@HauntedCorpseGaming]

Battletech passes the "Christmas Day test" meaning you can instantly use them out of the box.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Bam

[@JimCrimmins]

This is my favorite Trench Crusade KZbin channel now

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Lol

[@rcdemoral1982]

Battletech night! Woo! Two things I I feel really made it come back from the grave: 1). Alpha strike and Classic rules. It's basically the kill team version where you get faster games and still get good crunch with all the optional rules you can add 2). The ease of entry. I literally bought a mech pack and walked to the game table from the register, opened it and played a game right then and there. I hope it sees continued growth and success!

[@DaiMongar]

Yep, alpha strike won me over. I'd played classic battletech before but found it too crunchy, alpha strike is way better suited to modern wargaming tastes imo. Also yeah, the packaging on those force packs is just 😙🤌

[@TheKarnophage]

Battletech is a 40 year old game and other then some tweeks it uses the same rules as it did when it came out. FASA was not originally a company that sold miniatures, what they sold was the lore of the Universe. Battletech is a board game that happened to use miniatures.

[@EvilBearSkirmish]

trench crusade is great for stores to sell kitbashing historical sets together

[@Wargoat6]

BT is popular bc the lore, Alpha Strike, the low cost and Carl Macek isn't alive to sue them anymore.

[@jeancouscous]

What their plan for Trench Crusade future has been clear: in a year, a narrative campaign settings, a narrative map campaign. Then, new factions ideas they want to realize, it is a passion project that turned into a financial success after all. Your analogy of the old band getting back together is pretty accurate, and the reason for many why they are interested into it. We found back the grim and punk energy of early GW that is sorely missing nowdays.

[@WarpstonePainting]

YES TRENCH CRUSADE Edit: Yes more Old world content too please. All I play is Old world and Trench crusade.

[@Dawings21]

Battletech is one of the most complete package; its not perfect, but it has the most facets of its delivery system down pat (ignoring KS deliveries). Its packaging is great, its player base is established, it has options for beginners at every scale, its boxed sets would be really hard to make better value and while its models aren't what I would calling stunning, they are the easiest to paint which results in a much smoother on ramp for people to dip their toes.

[@misterzealous8696]

I am one of the mainstay "the guy" person at my LGS and I love non-GW games and GW for their own reasons. People are used to being able to go into a store and find people playing Games Workshop games and mainly Warhammer 40K. The instant gratification of not necessarily rolling dice, but finding people to be excited about the game with, talk lore, gush over the models, and see other people playing seems to be what really brings people in. That initial push of getting a group of people who are not only playing and hobbying regularly, but also doing so in a way that is welcoming to new players is just not common. These games that are fighting for those wargaming scraps are competing with the idea of just getting an army and basically always having someone to play with.The narrative online and in person around these smaller games always devolves into a comparison against the GW juggernauts as well. I have watched people come into a store, get excited about something, then have two other customers talk about the challenges the game faces with 40K being a huge game in the area, and I can see the excitement just fall from their faces even though they are talking to people who are playing the game at that moment.

[@kausalkraken5951]

I love Battletech. One of the best games on the tabletop market.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

I think a lot of people agree with you

[@bumgilligan]

You very much need "the guy" for any of these smaller games to stay alive beyond the first couple months of release.

[@StorminWolf]

Even some of the smaller GW games need someone to push it.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Very true

[@MrLigonater]

OH! You should ask for an Urbie Derbie in the Battletech simulators. They load up exclusively urban mechs for everyone and it is hilariously fun.

[@thelonelybolter8245]

My hobby consists of evangalizing 3D printing and Trench Crusade on Facebook, arguing online that Old World is bigger than 40K, clicking on space marine thumbnails and then leaving comments complaining about clickbait, so your channel is literally perfect for me.

[@chad534]

40k is the greatest game ever in spite of space marines.

[@03dashk64]

@@chad534and in spite of being a terribly unfun game 🤣

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

This comment claps

[@piotrjeske4599]

It is a bit too easy to take a box/boxes of Frostgrave and slam them with Warlords WWII stuff, and you don't need to print anything. Bonus two things people want are new stuff, a new game often runs out of "new" stuff very fast. The other thing is having people to play. A face with 6 dudes at the store will die.

[@willschoonover8654]

I think the pre-assembled minis work well for Battletech because building your mechs on paper is such an involved part of that game and nothing has to be WYSWYG. Deciding how to equip and pose your spacemarines is fun, but gluing a boxy arm with some dots on it to a boxy robot isn't the same. A lot of the customization in Battletech happens in your head. Battletech's recent success owes a certain amount to GW's 'marketing' mistakes. A few years ago (when GW put out a new fan content policy that pissed a lot of people off) you couldn't go into any online 40k space without seeing disgruntled fans asking what other scifi property had a depth of lore close to 40k because they were looking to jump ship. The only answer was Battletech, so it attracted new fans solely because it was scifi and had a lot of lore. The 'only' thing the game did to earn that attention was survive for 40 years, consistently publish novels and other world-building assets, and make some good plastic minis at exactly the right time.

[@bazzab1023]

Technically, after you apologized to TOW, you kinda drifted through a few potential targets. There was Malifaux, Underworlds, and then you rolled Knight Models pretty hard ... A huge advantage BattleTech has is that people already know what it is. "We're bringing BattleTech back", that's your marketing, you're done. Plus having Alpha Strike as a super easy entry point is fantastic. I bought a bunch of BT stuff just to play Alpha Strike with my kids, but if I want to scale up to the full accountant version I already have everything ready to go. Personally, I'm happy that Trench Crusade does absolutely nothing for me and I can happily just sit this one out without any temptation. No shade to anyone who is excited, clearly a lot of people are.

[@vagabondprime1691]

Honestly? I don't even care what you guys are talking about, I just enjoy the perspective. I worked in a retail indy game store for years, and it's cool hearing your perspective and passion for the hobby. So, for that, thank you!

[@uniteallaction]

Gamers tend to stick to what’s already popular, so for a game to establish a lasting scene, you need one or two dedicated individuals to champion it. As impressive as Trench Crusade looks, its long-term success will depend on whether it’s still relevant in five to ten years. Honestly, a lot of the current hype feels like a protest vote against Games Workshop. Its gothic and dark aesthetic, reminiscent of Warhammer 40K, might be what’s drawing people in. However, in my gaming circle, no one has even mentioned it, so it seems more like a small fish in a vast ocean.

[@mikefish1124]

Yeah I feel as though you've hit on the main issues that I have as well. To be fair, I am not really a Grimdark guy, so a lot of the TC imagery doesn't really wow me

[@redgreenbluehex]

As the conquest last argument of kings guy... Thats true.

[@ThePulkrabek]

There are dozens of us!

[@ADTRPG]

Battletech has several things going for it. Nostalgia, massive lore, minis can be expensive metal or cheap plastic, they also make cardboard standees, current Battletech has welcomed 3d printing and makes no complaints about it, there's now 3 "versions" (Classic with massive crunch, Alpha Strike fast play, and upcoming Aces with Solo/Co-Op), there's several levels of play from RPG up to Battleforce and everything in between. FASA had a shotgun approach to all levels of the game, and CGL doesn't seem to be changing course.

[@earnestwanderer2471]

The only newer game system that I’m even vaguely tempted to go for is Mantic’s new Halo product. The main reason is, as you referred to, the Christmas Day aspect of the game. A one box game. No building, painting or terrain construction needed. Open the box and play. On the dining room table. No need for a 4’x8’ table in the basement and specialized buildings or other terrain pieces. I just watched a video about Trench Crusade. This guy is investing hours and days building a modular terrain set of WWI style trench systems with no-man’s-land full of bomb craters and shell holes. Really beautiful and creative, but I don’t have any of the resources necessary for that scale of project.

[@jakegray1723]

Its weird. I think Trench Crusade, in addition to potentially being a flash in the pan, is kind of having the 'band kid' type effect. E-Celebs are committing to it so hard online, that the average Joe who funds GW doesn't even think about playing it and or is so intimidated of TC because of that. Joe, in his interior mind, does not want to be in a similar position for making or buying a big table of very specific terrain, which in turn turns him off of the game before he ever actually thinks about playing it.

[@Dstinct]

After the delivery guy dropped off my copy, one person spent the time building the terrain while I read the rules. We were playing our first game less than 30min after the box arrived. Halo is a blast, and its my new favorite beer n pretzels game.

[@jarrettmaurice3070]

Trench Crusade is bringing the old 40k players back to our local gaming store. And using their “outdated” and abandoned “legacy” GW models Is putting some smiles back on their faces lol The LGS owner is tired of GW screwing over our LGS distribution with fake “limited” releases AND the barrier to entry of ever playing a single game of Warhammer after explaining what is needed for a new player to get models on a table.

[@joehill6916]

Trench Crusade is a compelling aesthetic but I don’t see it getting near to what the hype is suggesting it might be. It’s like Mork Borg to D&D. Absolutely wish it luck though; it looks super cool.

[@03dashk64]

Except TC has a lot more going for it than just aesthetic. Mork Börg is very beautiful and has a cool layout…but not much else. It has a gorgeous presentation with the most generic rule system slapped on. TC has some great game talent behind it too.

[@wesleyejackson]

I feel Battletech's success has been driven by it's low key but evergreen IP. The mech designs are iconic.

[@bvshark89]

Hey guys, I'd love it if your next video could be something like... will trench crusade affect xmas sales? I feel like there's a lot yet to explore. If you guys pump out two more trench crusade videos, I believe you can make something like "TOP 5: Our top trench crusade videos" rofl. Love the content as always!

[@danielgeltner2862]

The asoiaf game also has preassembled minis and is fairly successful depending on your area

[@stravblardo2624]

It’s a really great game. Some of the best starter boxes I’ve ever seen also

[@Dstinct]

If asoiaf was done by anyone by CMON I'd be interested, but after getting burned with Dark Age and Wrath of Kings, I don't trust them to support these kinds of games long term.

[@stravblardo2624]

@ i understand, I have a friend who told me that 6 years ago about Song. Its still doing well for a non GW game though

[@danielgeltner2862]

@@Dstinct + their distribution is horrible even for the games they keep supporting lol but hey I believe ASOIAF is beeing supported since 2018 with no end in sight. and it has a big community, I don't know if WoK and DA ever got that big, even I heard good things about DA rules.

[@Lycan3303]

Battletech best girl but trench looks super cool

[@WRXSEVEN]

Traditional Battletech is actually much closer to a board game than a miniature game. So the mechs are board game pieces that can be turned into miniatures if you want.

[@Azazel-zv4fy]

Putting Historicals aside, it seems like most Fantasy/Sci Fi minis games (including GW's own games) are like a "side quest" that people go onto every so often for a break from GW/40k/AoS and something new. Of course, all games with have their smaller numers of full-on devotees, but it feels like that's the case for so many people.

[@bruced648]

I have been involved in the gaming industry for over 45 years. battletech has a 40 year proven track record of having quality and consistent rules. most other games have a great concept, but the rules fall apart. the best example is 40k. 37 years and 10 different versions of the rules - the game is still broken. what made battletech and FASA successful, they created a war game with a good universe. then, they let the players push the narrative. meaning, players can make thier own hero's. for the first 10 years of the game - balance was never an issue. that concept was introduced due to the 40k tournament scene and battletech players wanted a similar tournament experience. even with the most recent products and publications, the players drive the narrative - not a company narrative that players have to fit into. I could go on, but this channel only see's GW as the 'be all, end all' of gaming. if everything you see has to relate to GW, the bias reduces your credibility.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Thanks for sharing. We share things from our perspective - which is from a retail store trying to survive in 2024. Like it or not, the objective reality is that GW is the center of the miniatures universe, as they have a near monopoly on retail space and market share.

[@bruced648]

@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 while GW produces a large quantity of miniatures games and accessories, it is absolutely market dependent. throughout the central and south central U.S., GW is frowned upon or completely avoided. however, the upper Midwest U.S. has a very mixed opinion and has about 50/50 chance of being in a non-GW establishment. in the southeast U.S., GW is almost non existent in most flgs. and in the mountain states, you have to request special ordering for GW. in the north east U.S., has some of the better stocked stores. over the past 5 years pre/post c-vid, I've been in flgs stores in all of these areas. first and foremost, ccg's dominant the gaming market. miniatures war games are next, with GW products taking a solid 15%-20% of retail shelf space. that is dependent upon the particular store as many stores won't touch GW. even the Detroit area (U.S. side) has a modest GW influence. while many games producing companies have great products that only get promoted at conventions. it's also upon the store to review and market these games. and while the retail space within any store must provide a return on investment. the ability to promote these products is equally required to get a return of investment.

[@GreyHunter88]

@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Which is such a shame. I remember when your store was full of surprises. Malifaux, Flames of War, random hobby kitsch. We always made a point to come down with no objective other than to browse. Now most hobby stores just feel like GW outlet stores. MeepleMart is the only place I can think of that still has that "get lost and find stuff you never knew existed" feeling. You guys have a killer collection of paints and stuff, but I've got so many random paint sets from your place over the years that I will be in the grave long before I run out of pigments. I know you're only doing what you have to do to grow your business, but I do miss the 'magic' of olden day hobby stores. The Games Workshop stuff is just kind of boring. I already know everything you could possibly show me because GW has sent me 60,000 newsletters telling me I can preorder it at some indeterminate time. Trench Crusade is like that little noodle place you find near your house. The sign has fallen off, it's probably violating the health code, and you suspect it might be a front for money laundering, but it's got the best noodles you've ever tasted. GW is like Kinton Ramen, or whatever. Polished, friendly, franchised, consistent. You just can't replicate the "hole in the wall" formula for the mass market. The second you do, people start complaining that it's too spicy, it trends negatively on social media, somebody takes a picture of the dirty bathroom, etc. Which is fine, honestly. Half-Tilt is a miniatures game about halfling knights jousting. It is an absolutely niche and absurd concept that could not be dearer to my heart. It's the best thing I've ever seen. I know nobody could ever turn that into a commercial unit shifter, but I don't care. It's mine, and if my friends and I are the only people who ever play it, I'm still going to love it just the same! As someone who works in the indie film business, I completely understand the line you guys have to straddle. Like, I may have personally loved Chainsaws Were Singing, an Estonian film about a dude trying to rescue his girlfriend from a bunch of weird cannibals who break into random musical numbers about how much they love killing people. I'd spend 12 months taking it to markets and be lucky if I sell it to three territories, though. I've got employees to feed, at the end of the day. It can sometimes be hard to explain that to people without losing your street cred, though. Which is where I think some people misunderstand your videos.

[@davidwasilewski]

Balance was never an issue? I remember playing Battletech at high school. It seemed balanced until someone worked out that you could abuse the ‘death from above’ rule and turn up with swarms of big armour legged, weaponless (very cheap) mechs and just jump on your opponents. Very silly. Never played it since.

[@bruced648]

@davidwasilewski yes, and we also took a 5 ton jeep with 1 ton of MG ammo and rammed mechs while detonation the ammo for a 400 pt explosion. anyone can find ways to exploit the rules. that's what min/max players are good at. however, if you play narrative campaigns with a dedicated GM, most of the time you get a quality gaming experience.

[@Dayvon11]

I am sitting on the sidelines for trench crusade. Been in the hobby long enough to have seen many of these games come & go. A kickstarter of 3 million is still a tiny player base if you do the math.

[@Dram1984]

Yep. I wish them all the best but in all likelihood nobody will be talking about it in six months outside a handful of people.

[@chrish1645]

Understandable, and the great thing about it is that the buy in so to speak for Trench Crusade is virtually nothing. The rules are free, and they actively encourage kitbashing. It's skirmish so the number of figures you need is small.

[@StorminWolf]

30 + years of Miniature Wargaming hobby agrees with you. Also anyone remembers Gaslands? that was all the rage not too long ago. Now people never heard of it when you mention it.

[@Dstinct]

@@StorminWolf Gaslands is a word of mouth game. You don't really hear about it because there isn't any new releases. Its got a solid core rule system and you play from there. Im part of a facebook group for it, and its quite large, but Osprey doesn't really market many of their games.

[@StorminWolf]

@@Dstinct I have been part opf Gaslands and its communities pretty much since the beginning. It is not to far off with the amount of stls, releases and even plastic sprues several of the companies hopping on to that did back then. The issues are similar, no real shelfspace, no Gaming stores and hence most clubs ignoring it. I mention it quite a bit especially s an easy entry in to the hobby at large, adaptable to play with kids (Mariokart?) etc etc, and it got an expansion a second edition, and several downloadable pdf issues. So I do love Gaslands, and I have way to many carts, but fact ist nowadays no one in the content creator and wider hobby space is talking about it any longer. All these games get driven through the village for a period of 6 -18 Montsh and then they re gone to be enjoyed by the people loving them, but they do not get focus anywhere any longer. TC may get longer run, just because of the big names attached to it (It is the gang getting back together) but it is still only 20k people worldwide backing it... Which is not much in the whole Hobby.

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Trench Crusade is the Traveling Wilburys of tabletop?

[@kudosbudo]

the mechs feel like a thing you pilot. so you will just paint it your colours. its very personal to you. 40k miniatures are sombody elses idea of cool. very nice looking but theres pressure to make it recognizable. where as mechs it feel like you are in charge of how you paint them.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Its funny because people used to make that argument about space marines

[@sebastiencarrieres8825]

You know guys, most people that visit your store have a car. You should sell tires, that would generate good money!😂

[@PlanetToborTV]

lol

[@percyblok6014]

Oil changes out back to keep the customers in the store browsing longer. A 40K Jiffy Lube + Tire Rack.

[@sebastiencarrieres8825]

@@percyblok6014 Oh! And you could fill those tires with GW air on top of that!! I think we have something here guys!

[@ronaldcote8077]

LORDS OF RUBBER!

[@FitzTheMariner]

I mean BattleTech was pretty big for a long time. Even then non-nerds like myself back in the mid-90s was probably aware of BT if they went to a local multi-purpose hobby store with video games, comic books, Magic, etc.

[@sebc3890]

MORDHHEEIIIIIIMMM !!!

[@asuranshadow9491]

That local enthusiast is so important. We have a couple of advocates locally and it has blown up short term, but tbd if it will have legs

[@atragonx7939]

At least you guys are consistent. You troll the comments section, but you troll each other too.

[@gav-gf7cr]

As a retail thing Trench Crusade would never have been so succesful. It's a passion project for the designers and people responded positively to that in a way they would not have to yet another hypercommercial wannabe-GW. I really like that. The designers want to keep the rules free and the game miniature agnostic and encourage kitbashing. It's a refreshing and very gamer & hobbyist-friendly.

[@the_uggh]

The TC guys did an interview on the Monument Hobbies show this last Monday. They said they plan to try to be on shelves someday but right now that is a year or more out as a minimum

[@imthelizardking]

Where is the Warhammer Underworlds Market update? I heard a rumor that they are squatting all of the other games to make room for more Underworlds.

[@TravisKelltner]

MOARE TRENCH!!!! LOL Really enjoy y'alls conversations.

[@Stonehorn]

I don’t even see any hype for Trench Crusade online anymore. It’s been what? Two weeks Also, I was the guy in my area who kept WHFB alive in my area for all the years since it was canceled. It was a lot of work, but it was worth it. We have a dozen regular TOW players now, and a couple more building armies

[@redsven7624]

Personally, I think the packaging is the least of steamforge's issues

[@SciFiPorkChop28]

Really good question for SFG about packaging (although how much SFG packing for Warmachine is just bad choices by PP)... but the Epic Encounters from SFG have amazing boxes (although the pics on the back are IMHO too small... ZOOM IN ON THOSE 25-28mm tall models pleases!!!!)... but yeah... even guild ball (which did go through multiple types of packaging) and Godtear should have been learning lessons for them!

[@pauls3585]

Trench Crusade has been around for years according to the designer during interviews. Kickstarter just got it out to a wider audience.

[@horusthewarmaster7]

What is holding A Song of Ice and Fire, Battletech, Conquest, Bolt Action or any of these games from being ‘GW’ big for retailers? They all have cheaper minis, well painted ‘hobby-porn’ marketing, with great sculpts, worldwide competitive tournament scenes.

[@NoesAttic]

Retailers are actually capital investors that have to focus on ROI. That was a take that I heard recently and helped explain every decision on bringing in new games. How does rhe ROI of TC compare to GW? Just a thought.

[@aslbaron1]

We love the Trench talk!

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

I think Jay is getting trenchfoot...

[@Perkustin]

Another great vid thanks. Battletech always strikes me as a crazy what if, in another world it's THE game, not just a solid also-ran/alternative. It's been around as long as 40k(maybe longer idk), it has a ton of great Lore (which isn't just 'rip-offs' like 40k was) with popular novels, got in early on having quality licensed videogames and most importantly it's American. IIRC it's a 'FASA' property originally and from what i recall FASA were one of the most staggeringly incompetent companies ever (especially during the all important mid 90's-mid 00's) but even so, Americans had like no incentive to play some expensive British game and yet they are now it's biggest market.

[@gamelover260]

people are hyped for Trench Crusade, because its a great game, its a breath of fresh air, the return of grim dark,. But also being aboslutly burnt the fuck out of warhammer and its monopoly on all game types. Its frusterating when there is only ever one game. its not like video games where there are several MOBAs at a time. there is really only warhammer now in most stores, and if big battle Sci-fi isnt your thing, its frusterating

[@ay2deet578]

Would you stock Warmachine (if you dont already) now it has a new owner in Steam Forged Games

[@kudosbudo]

wait folk actually played malifaux?! i read the rules and could not follow even the combat. so obteuse and confusing. it looked so cool and minis looked great and then ugh how do folk play this?

[@ethanwelner1230]

Battletech survived despite having mediocre models and a terrible ruleset for the same reason its middling quality low budget videogames do. Nostalgia. Literal, pure, gallons of nostalgia from dads who have tons of disposeable income and remember this game and franchise from their childhood in the 90s. It's like if Old World had a cheap buy-in and didn't have the stench of being a games workshop product (and also was literally unchanged from its borderline unplayable ruleset in 1998). Trench crusade is likely doomed to be a flash in the pan or online only kingdom death style game for sickos that love the body horror and ultra edge content (i'm in that camp). MCP and Shatterpoint could survive based on the IP and nostalgia, but wargamers aren't really "Marvel" people and "Marvel" people aren't really wargamers. There's a little bit of overlap, but in a lot of ways theyr'e fundamentally different tribes of nerd culture. It also doesn't help that AMG's relationship with its community and the idea of balance is such that their games aren't particularly functional in any sort of tournament format, but the games themselves kinda need that sort of tournament style competition to not grow stale. They aren't games for hobbyists. I genuinely question if another tabletop game will ever break out. So many short term successes are based on IPs that have a distinct shelf life (ASOIAF) or are short term flashes in the pan based on some sort of aesthetic that can capture people until that aesthetic goes from being cool to being cringe (Warmachine and steampunk). It kinda feels like GW has just stolen all the oxygen from the room, and the only games that survive in any long term way are just pandering to nostalgia.

[@03dashk64]

Ah yes. Nothing more to Trench Crusade than the Kickstarter page. There isn’t a website. Nor are there several lore primers. Nor is there a rulebook. Or a thriving discord channel with tons of conversions and minis. Nope. Nothing at all except a single kickstarter page.

[@PMMagro]

The Garbage- Trench war boys home by Christmas?

[@chad534]

Please do an update on Battlefleet Gothic lol

[@jester7028]

Love the trench crusade talk ( sorry Jay 🤣

[@mikefish1124]

You probably love it, because excitement for it seems to be starting to wane, and there's not too much of it anymore

[@jester7028]

No not really I still see it talked about but if I want my hit of TC I go to the subreddit to checkout kitbashes and what not. I just like listening to there perspective on TC. I would love if they talked about Stargrave or osprey games and see what kind of sell through rate/ community exists by them

[@kausalkraken5951]

Can we get a video just about your thoughts on battletech?

[@HughMacLeod42]

hello from your neighbour in Hamilton.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Oskee wee wee!

[@thomaswilliams5005]

Molasses? You Canadian eat some weird stuff. Who puts molasses in apple pie??? Oh wait you were talking about games. Something something grumble grumble Trench crusade is grumble grumble

[@USALibertarian]

What does a small company need to succeed? To be a big company.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Lol

[@mikefish1124]

I am so tired of hearing about Trench Crusade. I'm personally trying to build up the wargaming meta at my local shop (via 40k and Warmachine) so actively promoting home games is not my goal. Not only that, but I can only take so much Grimdark. Lots of the TC grimdark stuff just seems so pointless and gratuitous.

[@tinnitussoundtherapy]

All wargaming is pointless, its a game of toy soldiers. As for the aesthetic, yes its personal preference but WH is grimdark at its sole. The more recent cutesy anime inspired style is just a passing trend to bring in more kids, it will not have the 40 year staying power that grimdark has

[@mikefish1124]

@tinnitussoundtherapy indeed that's why I said "I am so tired..." since we are all talking about personal preferences. Which the guys specifically asked for, btw. Grimdark aesthetics are a stylistic choice - and a shallow one at that. No more or less valid or long-lasting than anything else.

[@blathian]

I would say the same thing about 40K and Warmachine…way more forced down my throat daily