Western Theories of Atonement

Fr. Panayiotis continues his discussion on salvation and redemption by pointing out some of the theories of atonement in the West and then makes a comparison with the ancient Christian view to show how these new theories deviated from the original understanding. These Western theories include the Ransom or Bargain theory, Anselm's theory of debt or satisfaction, the Penal Substitutionary theory of atonement, and the Moral Exemplar theory of atonement.
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[@Conmezzo]

Amen and thank you for this teaching. I'm currently Presbyterian and fortunate enough to attend a church that encourages inquiry into early Christianity.

[@WishingForRain]

Then you'll be Orthodox soon. That's where studying the ancient church brings you.

[@greenhaven-podcast]

@@WishingForRain haha, yes! As I tell my Protestant friends (in a joking way) when they ask me anything about Orthodoxy, "Don't ask too many questions or study history too much or you'll end up having to deal with the answers."

[@nickkerinklio8239]

What are you now?

[@slimduster5468]

I almost became an orthodox Christian at one point , but I had no support from my peers. They thought I was converting to a whole other religion. The ignorance of modern protestants and their overlooking of the early church father's, astounds me.

[@steelfalconx2000]

I'm in the same boat my friend. My wife is a protestant and has no interest in examining her beliefs, and I do not wish to live a spiritual life without her. It's really not her fault, she thinks she is honoring God by keeping her faith. I wouldn't want her to dishonor God in any way. I can just pray for us.

[@eddyhoughton6542]

Why would you not convert because of lack of support from your peers? The truth is the truth whoever you live or work with. Besides, when you join an Orthodox community, you will find new peers who will support you.

[@St.MartinofToursPrayToGodForUs]

Keep praying, let Christ be a light to your peers! God bless you!

[@lindaphillips4646]

I think it is probably the usual case that those who convert to the Orthodox Church do so without the help of peers. In fact it often happens with direct conflict with them. (That has ALWAYS been the case. Look at the martyrs through the ages. ) We find other 'peers' to help us. We do a LOT of praying because we begin to seek the Pearl of Great Price and cannot live without it. And the Lord helps in the ways ONLY He can. Priests like Father can speak much more fully about such things than i dare.. Keep praying. Keep praying.. ( i speak as a sinner. Please don't hear arrogance..)

[@johnbautiste]

Lead your wife.

[@nancyincanada5553]

I've never heard this explanation/differences before. I truly enjoy these video teachings. Thank you and bless you.

[@CScott-wh5yk]

Nikolai the Traveler recommenced this channel in his recent video - I’m glad he did, this is great content that is concise and helpful.

[@Trisagionfilms]

I just watched his video promoting our documentary on st. Nicholas! That was really awesome of him!

[@susansuewwilliams]

Nikolai is now Orthodox in Japan, may the Lord bless him and Trisagion Films

[@dj393]

Thank you for your easy to understand explanation. I am a protestant, taught a combination of the first three Western atonement beliefs you talked about.

[@flearhcp]

hey there , are you still protestant?

[@simontemplar3359]

Thank you for these wonderful videos. They are so informative and so important. May His peace be with you, Father.

[@maaikekamstra7353]

Thank you so much. I am coming from the protestant belief system and convert to Orthodoxy. There is so much to learn and to unlearn. Thank you so much for this overview and explanation.

[@susanct4378]

Since my 20s, I have been almost theologically and humanly crushed by the first 3 theories of the Atonement. Fifty years later, I am thrilled beyond measure on hearing these theories so expertly, succinctly, and exactly expounded and Refuted by Fr, Panaylotis. Deeply grateful to God that He brought me to this video. Will listen to more of this series. Deo gratias.

[@alexandrianorthodoxchristi2626]

Thankyou Father

[@dylangoveas6239]

Fantastic..this is a must watch video...worth the time..super

[@MrPeterFranc]

wow. I wih that all greek clergy were as orthodox as you are. thank you Father

[@IdolKiller]

Thank you! Love & appreciate your insight.

[@elizabethshaw734]

I was baptized and raised UCC. I visited many many Protestant churches around the world and never was taught this Penal atonement. None of the Protestant churches I visited including my own ever said Jesus saved you on the cross so you're good. I learned a balance of prayer and good works. That might became Catholic and was totally void inside and stopped going to church. Now I wish to become Orthodox because it is the truth it is a Church of Christ and the apostles. :-)

[@jessedutch3086]

Thank you for this presentation. Coming from a protestant background I must note that I have never heard the connection between penal substitution and prosperity in this life, only salvation in the next. Maybe some charismatics would push that button though. Very helpful and rightly critical to my background.

[@guspapadopoulos945]

Many, many Orthodox fathers of the past were tortured for not relenting to the infallibility of papacy, to name a few were those priests in Cyprus who were burned alive, the Russian Saint Peter of Alaska was literally disemboweled, Maximos the Confessor had his tounge ripped out. Saint Haralambos was tortured and beheaded when he was past 100 years old. Those of the faith from the one true church the holy catholic and apostolic church were severely tortured prior to the great schism. The Orthodox under the Bolsheviks were literally wiped out. So many Orthodox were killed when the Crusaders pillaged Constantinopoly. Whether it was at the hands of the Muslims, the Roman Catholics or the powers of the orient far east; the Orthodox have suffered more, and been martyred more than anyone else; Someone tell me when in history have Orthodox tortured or killed anyone whom did not convert to Orthodoxy, don't think so. What does that say about a witness to the true Church of Jesus Christ.

[@Gruenders]

gus papadopoulos fair point

[@guspapadopoulos945]

@@Gruenders Thank you Ben

[@marymarysmarket3508]

By their fruits...you shall know them.

[@CK-ub7jf]

First time I have heard this. Amazing. Much cause for thought and prayer. Thank you.

[@adambenedict6155]

Very good overview of the Atonement theories. I really like how these theories were immediately followed up with the Orthodox view of Salvation. Thank You!

[@jamesworkman9697]

TY Father

[@Marsalis_CW]

Wow this is great. Thank you so much!

[@jmejmejme010101]

Good video. Thank you for making it.

[@Trisagionfilms]

You're welcome! Please help us by spreading our films to everyone and send people our way to support us so we can do this for many years to come!

[@patrickghaly1315]

Amen!

[@Siomn779nil]

Im cristean ortodox ☦️ love brothers in all Orthodox world

[@jonathanskeet5076]

These videos are very informative and helpful, thank you. I personally find the music in the background to be a distraction though, it would be great if the music could be faded to silence after 30 seconds or so.

[@Trisagionfilms]

It seems to be an issue with each person's individual PC because when I play it on mine, I have no problem; the music is not distracting and is very much so in the background. But for some people it is too loud. But if I had made this today (it's a 3-year-old video), I might have faded the music after 30 seconds, as you said. But when I play it, the music is not overwhelming at all.

[@jonathanskeet5076]

@@Trisagionfilms The balance of the music is not dominant at all in the mix, the problem is more that I’m a very musical kind of person and so my brain tends to want to focus on the music! But very good and helpful videos, thank you again.

[@Trisagionfilms]

Each person is different. In hind sight the video doesn't need music in the background. I am glad it's not a mixing issue for you. Thank you for your constructive criticism.

[@d0g_0f_Christ0s]

☝😔 Protestant here, though Orthodox at heart, something has changed over, I'm uncertain what, and to what extent, but whatever was me before is not now, whatever that means. I'm a Protestant that is not? 🤔 so this is what happened (in brief) I prayed to Christ in earnest, I humbly & desperately asked Lord Jesus where His church is, where's the church He prayed for in John 17, basically, is she somewhere or nowhere. I was compelled, I say compelled because where else do you start but at the beginning. I've been down the history path before, started nearly 3 years ago, a broken leg gave me time to look (I was born/bred Baptist, been a drifter ever since, 'to avoid commitment'). So drifting from Orthodoxy(East), to Catholicism(West), for the sake of reference), to Reformation, to & fro unable to adhere but also doing drug habit rehab/recovery through Salvation Army (another story another time maybe). Anyhoe to & fro, trapped in the Western mindset, I've known none other, I can say that now because I listened to an interview between Hank Hanagraff & Nathan Jacobs. That podcast changed me forever, Nathan explained exactly how I think, at least the construct/matrix/mainframe work of the method in or of which my processing hinges on/in/with?? Nonetheless, I was shown that to be able to contemplate Eastern stuff, I had to have an Eastern main frame (or whatever, easier to picture than articulate), and/or parameters in which to think it. So, scrap 34years of what I believe is Christianity or walk away, what I believe the Lord was saying was, "Leave your net and follow Me." In other words, I accept what His church claims or reject the true path to salvation. I tell you the truth (Lord have mercy), it is the Lord who saw to it that I learn(ed) exactly what I need to be shown, in the order I need to be shown, most importantly, physically go to church. Hear this my dear Protestant brethren, we must humble ourselves in the presence of Christ, for God's name's sake. The church that the Lord Jesus Himself established with His own blood (has)/is/will survive(ed), the gates of Hades didn't/hasn't/won't prevail, as Christ Jesus Himself declared. The rock (the confession of faith) that Christ built His church on is still supporting His church today. But, brethren, I beg of you to hear & understand, there is only one church, Christ is not a polygamist, He has only one Bride, there is only One God, One Father, One Lord, One Holy Spirit, One Head (Christ) of One body (the Church), absolutely indisputable. The only thing keeping us outside His body is our (my, in my case) pride, even Luther himself had this concern, with the opening up of His word came us little popes, we all believe what we want. If we are to claim Protestantism as the church then remember who the first Protestants are: Papal Rome, they were the first to ravage His precious bride the church, Luther tried to help Her back but then Calvin systematically secured the tear in her unity, the rest is history. There's only one way back, through Christ who commands all men everywhere to: Repent! 'But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.'-2Pet3v8‭-‬9nkjv So what's my rant got to do with salvation? Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us, the sinners, and please open our deaf ears to hear the Spirit truth, in that salvation is found 'in Christ alone', in & through His body the Holy Spirit, His bride the church, alone. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and to the ages of ages, & Through the prayers of our Holy Fathers and the Theotokos, O Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy on us and save us, Amen.

[@Trisagionfilms]

So what is stopping you from converting to Orthodoxy then? :)

[@d0g_0f_Christ0s]

@@Trisagionfilms Forgive me for my misleading message, I am converting. In response to your question, time. Even though I've considered it for so long I pray no one like minded wastes time thinking about it. Now I have to wait I guess, at least that's what I'm told. Until the hour of my rebirth, I guess I'm neither here nor there?? An Orthodox heart in a Protestant shell, only the Lord truly knows. If it were up to me, I would carve the Protestant out of me with the sharpest butcher knife available. Too many words, I have a big mouth to match my big head but I don't want anyone left behind but seriously, I believe anyone who truly wants Christ, He will guide them home the Orthodox way. I soooo don't deserve this most precious privilege. God bless.

[@jonathanoehlert5672]

The Scriptures affirm, without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Also, to state that there is no love taught in the "debt and satisfaction" model is lunacy! The fact that the Son stands in the sinners' stead to die is ultimate love.

[@drjohnashfield3915]

Very clear exposition

[@adeedas]

Hi, I am from a protestant background, but (luckily) nobody told me (directly) which of all the theories would be the supposedly correct one, so basically I choose to base my convictions about that on Scripture and have not come to a conclusion yet. I respect your views from a traditional Orthodox background but at minutes 5:50 -- 6:40 the Orthodox Father/Brother (sorry, I don't know what the correct title would be) speaking about Anselm's theory of substitution, says it would be unheard of in the first 1000 years of Christianity. That Christ was sinnless and punished in our place comes right from Isaiah 53 ("he was crushed for our inequities" "no") and the Letter to the Hebrews. I don't see why this would be unheard of.

[@Trisagionfilms]

What Father Panayiotis is saying is that what is in Isaiah and Hebrews was stretched by Anselm to that the Father punished His son to satisfy His justice so that he will not have to punish us (That is not what Isaiah or St. Paul say). This is different from what Christ did, when he accepted death, which we are already subjected to. He did that so that He can raise humanity up (through His Resurrection) united to himself as God and thus provide immortality to all through Himself. The Resurrection is at the center of this and not the punishment to satisfy either God’s justice or His anger.

[@adeedas]

@@Trisagionfilms First of all, thank you for your response, I really appreciate it! I am really asking out of interest as a believer in Christ and not with malicious intentions or to bother anyone. Comparing the translations from the Hebrew and the Greek of ISAIAH 53, I begin to see where the difficulties of a correct interpretation may come from (beside others probably): (ESV from the Hebrew OT) (4) Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet WE ESTEEMED HIM STRICKEN, SMITTEN BY GOD (!), and afflicted." (5) But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; UPON HIM WAS THE CHASTISEMENT THAT BROUGHT US PEACE, and with his wounds we are healed. (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned-every one-to his own way; and THE LORD HAS LAID ON HIM THE INIQUITY OF US ALL. (10) Yet IT WAS THE PLEASURE/WILL (Hebrew: chaphetz) OF THE LORD TO CRUSH HIM; HE HAS PUT HIM TO GRIEF... (Brenton from the Greek Septuagint) (4) He bears our sins, and is pained for us: yet WE ACCOUNTED HIM TO BE IN TROUBLE AND SUFFERING (other Greek texts, such as the Apostolic Bible Polyglot add: "hypo theos" - THROUGH GOD), and in affliction. (5) But he was wounded on account of our sins, and was bruised because of our iniquities: THE CHASTISEMENT OF OUR PEACE WAS UPON HIM; and by his bruises we were healed. (6) All we as sheep have gone astray; every one has gone astray in his way; and THE LORD GAVE HIM UP FOR OUR SINS. (10) THE LORD IS ALSO PLEASED TO PURGE HIM FROM HIS STROKE. If ye can give an offering for sin, your soul shall see a long-lived seed Now, I am pretty sure penal substitution is not correct ("once saved always saved") at least I don't see the evidence in the Holy Scriptures. I think Ransom Theory focuses more on passages from the New Testament whereas Anselm's Theory of Satisfaction focuses more on verses of Isaiah, so both do not seem wrong to me (yet a little incomplete or one-sided). The early Christian understanding (If I'm not mistaken it's also called Christus Victor in the west) of course seems to sum it all up and has the strongest case, focusing on God's love instead of His wrath on sin. Again, thank you and God bless you! Blessed be the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit for His loving kindness never ends

[@Fintan33]

If we break down the word atonement = at one mind= (ment) - one with kingdom of heaven within . Silent mind

[@8polyglot]

In the Orthodox sense of redemption then, why was the cross necessary at all? Couldn't Christ just as well have grown to old age and passed away to be resurrected? What was the purpose of a painful, young death if not for sacrifice?

[@Trisagionfilms]

The element of sacrifice out of love for us is definitely there, no question about it. The element of obedience to the Father is also there. The element of the humbling of God in His condescension to become like us is also there. The element of God meeting us on our level, as well as in our fallen condition is also there. But the final victory over all this is in the Resurrection which heals and perfects humanity in Christ and makes it possible for all of us who are fallen to attain perfection through Him. Hence the Cross is one stop along the way to redemption. We should not minimize it, it is very important, but we should also not ignore all the other elements in the salvation process.

[@klemperal]

I agree with everything you said Father, but I can't help feeling unsatisfied with what you did not address--that being the orthodox understanding of the sacrificial aspect of Christ's death. Christ was slain on Passover--Saint Paul makes that connection in calling him Paschal lamb. In addition he can be seen as the two goats, without blemish, of Yom Kippur--the one mocked, beaten, and driven from the city and the one sacrificed before God. Then of course there is the story of Isaac and Abraham which ultimately point to God The Father, and God The Son. I would love to hear you expound upon Christ's sacrifice specifically, what it means, and what it does as I would like to be able to better answer my protestant friends. Thank you for your videos!

[@vitaignis5594]

Protestantism seems to make the predicament of humanity an issue of God wanting to punish humans unless someone else faces His wrath, rather than an issue of sin, Satan, separation, and death.

[@eddiesprain8243]

How can God forgive sins without the death of His Son? He said without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

[@ryandyc]

Does the church hold Augustine to be a father of the faith like the west? Also, what does the church think about Pelagius?

[@orthochristos]

St. Augustine is a Saint in the Orthodox Church and a Father but has made errors, especially regarding original sin and predestination. Pelagius is a heretic.

[@williamoarlock8634]

This 'sharing' in suffering seems more like self-gratification on this god's part.

[@PETERJOHN101]

God is expressed through his creatures, so whatever we suffer he suffers, as well. The point is not the suffering but the transformation we experience through Christ's death.

[@conantheseptuagenarian3824]

penal substitution has destroyed my soul. it sucks. it's awful.

[@TT-ei1ge]

Amen

[@tubbiele2]

❤

[@paulhudson4254]

We wrongly project human behaviors to the divine! The “angry God” is an excellent example of our projections. Yes, Jesus is the God man. Fully God fully man in all aspects BUT sinless. Factor in the depth of love the Creator has for His creation, a love we can’t understand and are not even capable of...Yes, God gets angry and there are consequences, but not in human terms! ☦️

[@jrubi5552]

Im Melkite Greek Catholic. We literally practice like Orthodox to a T except the Church calender varies a bit. If I wanted to become Orthodox do I need re baptism. I was baptised very long time ago not sure of triple immersion was used. Or just Chrismation?

[@Trisagionfilms]

Here in the States(In the GOA) as long as you had triple immersion you only need Chrismation.

[@Tsalagi978]

Chrismation, though as a Melkite some have been received by a profession of faith and renouncement of Papal Authority. At least in Antioch. I was received via Chrismation and profession. I too was Melkite. For 22 years actually.

[@adechalus]

I don’t believe in once saved always saved, however I do know that teaching is not the same as the prosperity teachings.

[@colerobbins124]

Why is Christ consistently referred to a "lamb who was slain" if there is not an element of atonement? Consistently, the New Testament relates the old sacrificial system with the death & resurrection of Jesus. It seems like the Orthodox view de-emphasizes an aspect clearly used in the scriptures. At least from my point of view.

[@boatcaptain6288]

You're absolutely right. This guy in the video seems to not have studied his Bible well.

[@Tsalagi978]

No. You missed the point. The West over emphasizes those points. It becomes a legal transaction instead of healing. A satisfying of some angry God instead of love and restoration.

[@MattisWell.20]

Look up the original etymological meaning of “atonement”. It wasn’t about appeasement.

[@beowulf.reborn]

Our sins were laid upon Christ, so that He who knew no sin, became sin. And then it pleased the Father to crush Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed. He was wounded for our transgressions; He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we ourselves are healed. And we see Him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

[@frederickanderson1860]

4:59 Jesus was the promised Messiah to his own people. Isaiah chapter 53 explains it clearly. The western church condemned the people of Israel as God killers and they we're constantly lost forever until the Roman pope's supreme authority is accepted.

[@jonathanoehlert5672]

There is soooo much ignorance in this explanation. It ignored thousands of years of Christian writing and doctrine from Waldenses, Lollards, and so many more. The Bible begins with sacrificial atonement in the very first pages and continues through Moses' writing. Then, the New Testament explains it to the fullest in Paul's writing and further in the Hebrews. This a ridiculous video.

[@zayan6284]

Not sure why he treats ransom theory like an obscure western view. It is thoroughly patristic and St. Anselm's view was merely a develop of it to work out some of the kinks(like God owing something to the enemy.)

[@ReformedR]

the Protestant ideal of atonement is that you should repent I think your slightly confused with the libertines in John calvins day

[@GhostofTradition]

protistantism isn't one church so it's confusing its an umbrella covering many such as Calvanists

[@marcokite]

there are so many thousands of protestant sects how can one keep up?

[@Hospody-Pomylui]

As a Protestant (Presbyterian/Baptist) I assure you we preach the wrath of God and the severity of God and penisl substitution and even that God has decided which helpless humans he will save and which he will torment forever just to make his mercy seem more impressive to the ones he spared so he can get more ascribed glory for it. That's the model I've functioned in for years before the Lord opened my eyes to what the scriptures actually teach. But "Protestant" is not one thing, it is a thousand things.

[@boatcaptain6288]

Firstly, you're wrong about the ramifications of Penal Substitutionary theory. I'm unaware of any churches preaching that we should live a life of success (except the megachurch televangelists), but my church recognizes that the main reason we suffer is because God is *blessing us*. He tries our faith and dips us into the furnace of affliction (Isaiah 48:10) to remove the dross (Isaiah 1:25) to make us fine vessels for Him (Proverbs 25:4). Suffering only makes a Christian stronger in the end, because we have God to lend us strength to endure. Look at how Job came out more blessed after his afflictions, or how Joseph had evil done to him but in the end it became good, as he said: "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good," (Genesis 50:20). God is so powerful that He can bring good from evil, and that is what He does to His children. All things work together for good to them that love God (Romans 8:28) includes the tribulations we suffer. Secondly, yes, Jesus dying on the Cross was God's way of showing how much He love us, but it was also paying the sin debt. Why do you think Jesus said "It is finished"? The deed was done. The debt was paid. We are born in sin (Psalm 51:5) and in bondage to sin & iniquity (Acts 8:23, John 8:32-34, Romans 8:21, 2 Peter 2:19) and bound to the Law of sin & death until Christ paid the ransom & made us free (Romans 8:2). When we sin, we trespass against God. (Leviticus 5:6 & 15 & 19, Numbers 5:6) The word itself, trespass, indicates the severity of our sins against God. He doesn't take it lightly. Something has to be done to atone for it. Are you familiar at ALL with the purpose of the animal sacrifices in the Old Testament? They were blood atonements for sinning against God. Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the Cross was the ultimate sacrifice, the Scriptures even compare it to the old animal sacrifices in Hebrews 9:12-14. Do you even read your Bible, sir?

[@Tsalagi978]

😂😂😂🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️ Unlike you and your "church" he can read it in the original Greek. He doesn't rely on the archaic English of the KJV.

[@TheMhouk2]

you realize that sin is not breaking a cosmic commandment with a black mark against your name but partaking in death right? of course he reads his bible. the problem is you've skipped over leviticus 16, which describes the actual atonement, and there's nothing there about a) suffering as divine currency and b) God needing to kill something to no longer be angry. The animal sacrifices are about purification, not blood debts.

[@baskatz3443]

@@TheMhouk2 exactly

[@MattisWell.20]

Christ said it was finished because He mystically brought about the healing of the Cosmos in that one decisive act and victory against the principalities and powers. The Resurrection is what came out of this; what it being “finished” looks like. It’s not about paying off a debt. No forgiveness is required if a debt is paid. The Gospel is about forgiving debts; and it’s in that lavishing of forgiveness that our old, guilty selves are put to death and we are made new creations in Christ’s name! In the presence of His love, my sin, guilt and shame dissolve away. So, God by just forgiving us in the passion that He displays at Calvary is not Him leaving our sin un-dealt with. Quite the opposite actually. Glory be to God!

[@MattisWell.20]

He reads his Bible, he just interprets the purpose of the Law and the sacrifices differently than the way westerners have. All the transactional things of the Old Covenant were types and shadows foreshadowing the true meaning of sacrifice which is not transactional but relational.

[@calvinpeterson9581]

The biggest problem in the west is it makes the Father sound angry while Jesus is the nice guy. In essence in western theology Jesus came to save us from the Father. In the east Jesus came to restore our relationship back with God.

[@astronikolai6910]

Very true it reeks of Gnosticism

[@homerpimpson9855]

Yes growing up in the west you get the impression that Jesus and God the Father are separate or that the former is somehow less than God.

[@franciscafazzo3460]

RC Sproul who was a big wig in the Presbyterian reform movement out of Orlando Florida previously they get near gleefully says and I'm sure the other reformers do God is saving us from himself if you think that through that has to give you such a distorted understanding of how you're relating to God if he's saving you from himself I wish somebody would explain that to me

[@k98killer]

The good cop, bad cop theology of Protestantism is quite off-putting, especially compared to the theology of abundant love from Orthodoxy.

[@franciscoscaramanga9396]

Who do you think throws people into Hell?

[@emZee1994]

Wow an Orthodox priest explained Catholicism better to me than any Catholic KZbin channel I've yet to find. Thank you! This was very helpful to wrap my mind around Christianity

[@davidhoban3825]

Same here

[@v.g.Orthodox]

This Priest is Catholic and Apostolic priest. He teaches what the church tough in the first 1000 years. The Orthodox still hold to this today.

[@SimpleAmadeus]

@@v.g.Orthodox Most people do not know that the word "catholic" means "universal". If you say that this priest is Catholic, without clarifying the word, people will think you're saying that he is a Roman-Catholic priest.

[@danielkent4567]

I was first Protestant but knew there was more depth to Christianity. I read the church fathers and they point to the Orthodox belief system. I love the richness in orthodox worship and liturgy..

[@Trisagionfilms]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that a debt needs to be paid to God the Father for human sins as some modern theories of Atonement claim. Claims like "When one transgresses any law there is a debt owed to someone, typically the law giver, such as the government in civil law.", as well as claims that "We are incapable of paying our sin debt to God by cleansing ourselves from sin," and that "the perfect sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the subsequent resurrection paid that sin debt to God the Father," reflect a theory of Atonement developed by Anselm of Canterbury in the middle ages (11-12th centuries). This theory of Atonement was called "Substitutionary Atonement". This is the source of many people's understanding, not the Holy Scriptures. This is based on the idea of total depravity of man after the Fall (an other Western idea drawn from St. Augustine): Man's sin (which is absolute depravity) must be punished by God absolutely. God's honor and justice demands that the debt owed to God must be paid off so that justice may be satisfied. The debt is owed to God by the human race, but humanity is in total depravity (fallen and sinful) and cannot pay the debt to God in order to satisfy His justice and free us from punishment. Even if we repent from our sins we cannot be forgiven because the justice of God has to be satisfied. Divine justice and offended honor demand that punishment be exacted, Anselm claimed, because God is unable to forgive until a debt is paid to Him. This is the teaching of Anselm of Canterbury, not of the Holy Scriptures. Solution offered by Anselm: Only Jesus could pay the debt because he is sinless and perfect (substitutionary atonement). The Son of God is punished by God the Father in our place so that His wrath and justice might be satisfied. The Son of God saves us from the vengeance of God the Father by taking the punishment himself. This idea of Anselm is based on the legalistic society that he was part of. He is also drawing from the Knights' concepts of honor and punishment. This is a totally new approach to the Christian understanding of salvation not found anywhere among Christian theologians before Anselm. Anselm does not represent ancient Christianity and does NOT rely on the Holy Scriptures. Even when he refers to the Holy Scriptures, he stretches the ideas to fit his world of legalism and his social context of the 11th century. If one wants to find out what the early Christians understood, you have to read St. Ireneus, Origen, St. Athanasius, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom, St. Basil and others from the Greek speaking Fathers. The middle ages are far removed from the early Church and do not represent the Ancient Church's Soteriology. In fact, even a contemporary of Anselm's, Peter Abelard, wrote against this legalistic approach by proposing his own theory of atonement known as "Moral Exemplar theory of atonement". Both of these propositions are far removed from Early Christian thought and created serious problems for Western Christianity going forward. Anselm's legalistic approach to salvation brought about the Indulgences of the Roman Catholic Church, which were developed based on the understanding that God has to be satisfied. This development brought about the revolution within the Roman Catholic Church called Protestant Reformation, which sought to correct this false Soteriology, but created other serious problems. Also, the theology of the "Angry God", developed later by some Protestant Reformers comes out of this understanding, as well. The "theology of the angry God" has caused much unnecessary pain to many people and continues to cause many people to reject Christianity. Peter Abelard's theory of atonement, on the other hand, led modern liberal theologians to develop what we know today as "the social gospel of softness, kindness and love" in an effort to correct the theology of the angry God. This new theology, however, lacks of the Divine Presence of Christ and His transformative power for humanity. Western salvation theology has been in serious trouble for almost a thousand years because of this constant moving away from the Biblical and Early Christian understanding of Salvation.

[@Sean-3]

Thank you so much for this simple explanation . 🙏☦️

[@panokostouros7609]

One time I was speaking with a Calvinist who started promoting the Penal Substitutionary Atonement view and I asked him if he knew who Anselm of Canterbury was. His response to me was, "No sir! I don't follow the traditions of men. The Bible says 'call no man Father' . I follow the word of God."

[@davidcope5328]

It is ironic that although many reformed Christians claim to reject Catholicism entirely but their beliefs are all shaped by it, I once saw someone argue online that Augustine was a proto calvinist. Augustine, the man who said we should not pray for martyrs but ask them to pray for us, who said we sin by not adoring the eucharist, and who was the first to express fully the catholic idea of purgatory is a calvinist

[@marcokite]

@@davidcope5328 - exactly! well said

[@marcokite]

the poor guy, by God's grace may his eyes be opened

[@inTruthbyGrace]

did you obey 2Tim2:24-26?

[@lornadoone8887]

I guess Calvin was not a “man” then by his definition, but a proxy for God maybe?

[@RinaldoDegliAlbizzi]

Catholic here. Thank you father, your talk is clear, straight to the point.

[@marcokite]

@Noddy Vane-Arbuthnot - may God forgive you

[@georgebell8351]

This presents an incomplete portrayal of Western theology regarding redemption and salvation. The most glaring omission is any reference to the Council of Trent's Decree on Justification. It is worth noting that this decree's teaching on regeneration is quite similar to the Eastern perspective of theosis. Also missing is consideration that the West itself condemned the idea of the Angry God with its condemnation of the heresy of Jansenism. It is also worth noting that the Second Vatican Council summed up the truth regarding redemption thus: "In the human nature united to Himself the Son of God, by overcoming death through His own death and resurrection, redeemed man and re-molded him into a new creation." (Lumen Gentium 7) Again, this teaching is very similar to the Eastern perspective.

[@susansuewwilliams]

What a wonderful lesson. Having been a Lutheran until 2006, when my family found the One True Church, these lessons are so important to farther our understanding of the Lord's deep love for us.

[@daveunbelievable6313]

so god made himself man so he could join man to himself and create it anew?

[@PassifloraCerulea]

Substitutionary atonement makes zero sense to me, so it's nice to know the idea didn't exist for like half of Christianity.

[@vickykentrota9031]

So simply and divinely explained.Thank you so much Father.

[@davidramsey2566]

These theories of atonement have not been without grave consequences. They and the insane religious culture and behaviors they've helped generate had almost led me to reject Christianity altogether and I'm far from alone in this respect. Listening to a lot of NDE accounts of meeting Jesus and getting more into Orthodox theology lately have both help me see things very differently. I find it amazing just how much the two seem to reinforce each other. Maybe not perfectly but there is enough there to warrant a great deal further study. The emphasis on light and transformation in both should be enough to tweak at least a little interest in any curious seeker.

[@josephjude1290]

Always one of the first to watch your videos; thank you father!

[@Nomansland77]

What is not assumed can not be healed. That puts it into a more sensible explanation of things. Thank you Saint Gregory the Theologian.

[@flearhcp]

what does this mean , i dont understand this saying.

[@seronymus]

God assumed humanity to heal humanity

[@lornadoone8887]

From St. Athanasius in On the Incarnation.

[@Vartholomeos.]

Ευλόγησον Πάτερ.

[@122222770]

Was just talking about this with a friend. Great post!

[@georgeclayson902]

I am seriously trying to understand the Orthodox view of the atonement but I am struggling. The Bible is clear that Jesus died for our sins 1 Cor 15:3 is one example of many. But in what way did he do that according to Orthodox theology. Surely it has to be more than just identifying with us in our suffering. Another clue that it must be more than identifying with us in our suffering is the numerous references to the blood of Christ cleansing us from sin, along with the verse in Hebrews which says with out the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins. How does Orthodox theology understand these verses? I have been reading Athanasius a little recently and I understand him to say in his book on the incarnation that sin brings death, God said to Adam the day he sins he shall surely die. Therefore as God's word must come to pass we must die because of our sin. However the Word of God became flesh and died the death in our place. Thereby fulfilling the need of death for sin on our behalf. In doing so he has now freed us from death and in his resurrection has secured for humanity eternal life. How does Orthodox theology understand this? Any further light on this would be greatly appreciated.

[@seronymus]

Pray for wisdom and clarity and read more Church Fathers!

[@George-ur8ow]

Orthodoxy believes that Christ died for our sins - yes, absolutely and unequivocally. The issue is the overemphasis on this, which eventually led to the emphasis on penal substituion. The emphasis should be on the recapitulation of mankind through Christ - this is the atonement. In simple terms, the west emphasizes the crucifixion in atonement beggining in the 11th century (and carried even further by the protestant reformers), while Orthodoxy places a strong emphasis on the resurrection as our atonement.

[@boatcaptain6288]

@@seronymus Read more of the Bible, the words of God, not the words of fallible men who could be wrong. Why drink from a rivulet when you could go to the source, the spring, itself?

[@boatcaptain6288]

@@George-ur8ow How can we place too much emphasis on Christ dying for our sins when the Scriptures themselves emphasize it so much? Isaiah 53 prophesies the atonement of Christ, and it's hard to read it without seeing how there is indeed a debt to be paid for sin: "he was wounded for our transgressions" in particular indicates the severity of sin. It "pleased the Lord to bruise him", as if God is getting satisfaction from having the debt paid. If God loves us so much that He doesn't need blood atonement for sins, why would it PLEASE Him to do that? Hebrews 2:9 says Christ tasted death for every man. Again, suggesting a debt here: we sinned and deserve death. Hebrews 10 describes Christ as an offering for our sins. Again, implying a debt that needs to be paid. Heck just read the New Testament instead of letting "church fathers" tell you what to believe.

[@Tsalagi978]

@@boatcaptain6288 you mean the same people who can't agree on the Atonement and all claim to preach "the Pure Word of God"? You all differ as night does from day on the Trinity, Salvation, Ecclesiology, and Sacraments (some of you don't have them at all). Heretics throughout Church history all used their interpretation of scripture to justify their errors.

[@kevinhughes3477]

This is one of the best breakdowns of The western understandings that I have seen

[@2610paul]

Praise God wonderful work Father . Thanks for taking your time to have this video made and posted on a extremely important topic. It is the failure to truly understand the work of our blessed Saviour on the cross and his marvellous resurrection that is a cause of so many of false teachings and false conclusion in the west

[@opfipip3711]

What if these theories all reflect some truth about the atonement? God is love. But he is also holy. I think the New Testament gives us a variety of facts about the atonement which have to be seen alltogether to have the whole picture. Just my two cents.

[@M3124-t5f]

They do reflect some truth, and that being the sacrifice of Christ. But aside from that, the ancient view and the escolastic view are quite different

[@MattisWell.20]

This might offer some perspective: God is “holy” (that is an adjective); God is “love” (that is a noun). His holiness is not in competition with His love; it’s a description of His love. Meaning, we have to see His holiness in light of His love. Our fallen minds tell us that God is so holy that He can’t dwell in the midst of our sin. The Incarnation, however, says otherwise. What Christ, Who knew no sin, reveals in becoming sin is the true definition of holiness. God is so set apart that He does the unthinkable: He enters our world by uniting Himself in our humanity to our sin, illuminating all of it from the inside out in His resurrection life, liberating all of us who lay hold of His divine majesty.

[@hotwax9376]

I'm a Protestant and can tell you from my own experience that not all of us believe in total depravity. Many Arminians/Wesleyans favor partial depravity, which is also my position (nor do all Protestants believe "once saved, always saved"; I grew up in a denomination that soundly rejects it). I also reject penal substitutionary atonement because it would have required Jesus to die eternally with no resurrection. But because Jesus WAS resurrected, He could not have taken our punishment, He could only have cancelled it and offered an alternative. (Many Bible verses, such as John 3: 16 and Romans 5: 8, clearly teach that the cross was a display of God's love to us, but PSA makes it all about God venting His wrath on His Son and reduce it to form of cosmic child abuse.) I've been leaning toward the governmental theory as of late, but don't know enough about it to say for sure if I accept it. I also lean towards the Orthodox view of sin; instead of inheriting the guilt of Adam's sin as original sin teaches, we merely inherit the consequences of that sin, namely death.

[@mandyvatougios2447]

Thankyou sooooooo much father Panagioti. Christ Is Risen!!!!!! This was a very very clear and informative presentation...I very much appreciate it. May our Saviour and Redeemer have you always in His embrace.

[@thomasc9036]

Rather disappointing in very one sided atonement theories. He just mentions "angry/wrathful God", but that is looking at just a small part of the theory. He didn't explain that God loves us and wants to redeem us from our sins through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I can say the same thing about Orthodox use of icons like "OC worships icons and bows to icons", but that just won't be the whole truth. As Paul said "for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God" (Acts 20:27)

[@anthonyvaughan6470]

VERY INTERESTING DECONSTRUCTION !!

[@mongoharry]

Isn't the substitutionary death of Jesus what Paul taught in the Epistles?

[@M3124-t5f]

A Very complex Topic, Thank you for explaining in a simple way for us to understand, Father!

[@tr9809]

I highly recommend reading Fleming Rutledge on Anselm. She makes the distinction between what neo-Calvinists say of the Cross and what Anslem actually said. He was not offering a theory, and neither did he set the Son against the Father. Instead, he put forth a rational account of redemption in scripture. The cross is the unified operation of the Trinity in which God seeks to rectify humanity's falleness through redeeming humanity from sin. The justice of God is the loving act of healing humanity.

[@theotokos33]

Thank you father for this video, it was really helpful for me. I feel embarrassed calling myself a christian but still not even able to explain to someone why is that Jesus died for our sins, and what that means. idk if you already have made a video on this, but can you make a video on the eucharist, and how Jesus being the passover lamb is also a part of our salvation.

[@tallmikbcroft6937]

Bless Father, thank you for sharing this. Some of these teachings are hard to unlearn. But I am grateful to finally be in the right spritual hospital. Thank you for shining the Light.

[@MattisWell.20]

Here in the West, we literally believe that the Father is taking His anger out and exhausting all of His wrath against sinful people on Jesus, which manifests as Him literally cursing and abandoning His own Son, so that those who trust in Him and His sacrifice, He no longer has to be opposed to anymore, as if God could ever be opposed to that which He loves. It’s twisted in every sense. It pits God against not only what He loves but Himself in order to satisfy some obscure, abstract notion of justice, all because we lost our way. That system of justice is punishment for the sake of punishment. Judgement becomes an end itself rather than a means to an end. That vision of God is a cosmic ego, not the Abba of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[@paulwilliams9207]

Anastasia Thank you for this clarity Father, 🕯️🕯️🕯️

[@thealok0075]

God bless you all Amen 🙏⛪🕯️

[@steelfalconx2000]

So was Christ's crucifixion necessary? In other words would he have accomplished the same goals if he died of old age? Please forgive me because I am ignorant.

[@christianorthodoxy4769]

💖🔥💓❤️

[@cindymiller3416]

Idk.... then why do we Fast, give Alms, do the Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy, do Matania’s, go to Confession, spend all night in prayer, like the Monastics.... it seems to me that in this way we daily “kill a litttle bit of the old man,” uniting ourselves to Christ in his sufferings, for the benefit of humanity, and rising from our own sins and defaults thru his Grace. Suffering is not an evil but a healing ointment when done for the love of God. It teaches. It heals. It humbles. St Paul suffered 40 lashes 5 times and considered it an honor to suffer for Christ. Was his suffering for nought? What did it accomplish? “The servant is not greater than the Master.” And what about the Toll Gates? Fr (Saint) Ephraim of Arizona who founded 20 Monasteries and performed miracles, believed heartily in them. (There is a very thick book re what the Saints have said about the Toll Gates at his bookstore in Florence AZ). Legalism is definitely wrong, but by the same token, God is JUST. If we think that what God is allowing in our world today, is not His punishment for our sinfulness, then we seriously need to rethink that. “Repentance is the way of salvation.” “The road is narrow that leads to Life, and few there are that find it.”

[@SuperGogetem]

I was thinking of the very legalistic toll-houses as well. I believe they are real and convinces me that the narrow way is maybe more narrow than we think?

[@lornadoone8887]

@@SuperGogetem Sadly, the Western view convinces many (especially of a more Calvinist bent), that God’s love for us ceases when we sin against Him. It also gives the impression the sufferings we undergo as the result of sin are punitive/retributive and extrinsic (as in, God in His perfect wisdom and love could do otherwise, but chooses not to after a certain point in time), rather than corrective and the intrinsic natural consequence of our own sinful state. If I understand this correctly, the toll-house teaching is pedagogy, not dogma or theology, and even Fr. Seraphim Rose believed it was easily misunderstood and abused by those in the West. It should not be allowed to eclipse the clear proclamation of the gospel as release in and through Christ from sin, hell and death by His own death and resurrection.

[@bizungo2929]

I am so glad that i know the orthodoxy Faith e God love for all mankind.

[@WoundedEgo]

Personally, I am aghast and agog that 2000 years of theologians pondering the scriptural teaching about the death of Jesus that they still refer to it as an "atonement" and still speak of "the value of the merit" of it. Nowhere is the death of Christ said to be an atonement and there is no discussion of any "meritt" that it bestows on anyone. Never. It speaks of the death as a "propitiation" and tells us that the righteousness of God is the forgiveness of sins. An atonement is made by a sinner as an expression of remorse and an appeal for forgiveness. Jesus did not die to express his remorse or to ask for forgiveness for his sins. A propitiation is made by a judge who is inclined to forgiveness of the sins of an innocent or repentant person, to be vindicated for their "failure" to execute vengeance. It was God the Judge of All who made propitiation by offering the suffering of his own son to demonstrate to the public that he did not negligently or flippantly forgive sinners who had harmed others because he too was a victim of their treachery. That justification is forgiveness, not vicariously earned merit is easy to show: [Luk 24:47 NLT] (47) It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: 'There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.' [Luk 1:77 NLT] (77) You will tell his people how to find salvation through forgiveness of their sins. [Act 2:38 NLT] (38) Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [Act 26:18 NLT] (18) to open their eyes, so they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. Then they will receive forgiveness for their sins and be given a place among God's people, who are set apart by faith in me.' [Jas 5:20 NLT] (20) you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins. So "Limited Atonement" needs to go back to the drawing board and start all over. Also, the elect were the remnant of Israel that Jesus was sent to gather - the lost sheep - as told of Ezekiel 37 and Isiah 10:21 and elsewhere: [Isa 10:21-22 NLT] (21) A remnant will return; yes, the remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God. (22) But though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore, only a remnant of them will return. The LORD has rightly decided to destroy his people. [Jer 44:14 NLT] (14) Of that remnant who fled to Egypt, hoping someday to return to Judah, there will be no survivors. Even though they long to return home, only a handful will do so." These elect were the firstfruits that followed the Lambkin wherever he went on the shores of Galilee, etc. aka the 144,000. The great crowd are as innumerable as the stars of the heaven and the sand of the sea.

[@sophrapsune]

If the Church Fathers already has a coherent understanding of the theology of salvation, what deficiency did Anselm and Abelard think needed to be answered? If they knew the Church Fathers, what problem were they trying to solve? Was it a misunderstanding carried over from the Latin translations that Augustine had used? Thank you very much for this video, Father.

[@Trisagionfilms]

The West lost the Greek language during the Dark Ages of the Germanic barbarian invasions (400-800 AD), hence they did not have access to the Greek speaking Fathers who developed the theology as reflected by the Ecumenical Councils. Anselm and Abelard did not know Greek and had no access to the writings of the Fathers. During the following centuries, especially during the Renaissance and the Reformation, they knew Greek and could read the Fathers, but their theology was already formed solid based on Anselm, Aquinas and Augustine in the background that they could not accept the earlier Greek speaking Fathers any more. Melanchthon, among the reformers pushed for Chrysostom's understanding of Synergy of man and God, but the reformers rejected it and pushed him aside.

[@andreachiou9947]

This video explains a lot, but I still don't understand, why Jesus had to suffer in such a tremendous and mystical way, Isaiah 53 says: "the Lord laid upon him the guilt of us all......If he gives his life as an offering for sin...Through his suffering,my servant shall justify many,and their guilt he shall bear." This video didn't explain this part in an Orthodox's view point. I am looking forward to Father Panayiotis's video to explain the reason and meaning of Jesus's suffering.

[@christianorthodoxy4769]

Very good video.. of course there is more to this, but in a nutshell/encapsulated and compacted* very finely. Great job We want and they (Protestants need more... Video's and information like this.

[@Vinsanity997]

I still don’t understand why the cross is necessary in the eastern view.

[@Trisagionfilms]

This I think will be help you understand: www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/03/st-john-chrysostom-on-holy-cross.html

[@junesilvermanb2979]

The Cross was PROOF of God's ABSOLUTE LOVE of Humanity... ❤️

[@blue.skiesz18377]

Thank you for this video!! Really nice clarifications

[@Trisagionfilms]

Glad it was helpful!

[@susanct4378]

Forgive my misspelling of Fr. Panayiotis' name. Sorry.

[@ProtestantismLeftBehind]

Thank you so much for that wonderful explanation

[@Trisagionfilms]

Dear friends of Trisagion Films, We need your help and support in order to continue to produce these Films. Please donate through PayPal at www.paypal.com/us/fundraiser/charity/3379869. Your donations are Tax Deductible. Trisagion Films is a 501(c)3 non-profit organization registered with the IRS and the State of Georgia.

[@lorichandler6387]

So glad to find this information. ❤

[@tallmikbcroft6937]

I love you brothers..

[@yolanrym]

Thank you!!!!

[@stefaniepagonis6126]

Μπράβο πάτερ Παναγιώτη and Trisagion films for another great translation and interpretation I learn something new today thank you great job keep them coming when u get the time. God bless you all.

[@anio6865]

John 5: 22. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23. That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

[@anselman3156]

As in Adam we had fallen under sin, the curse and death, so we are delivered from sin, the curse and death in Jesus Christ. His voluntary suffering and death on the cross for us, being of infinite value and merit, as the death of one sinless, God and man in one person, is both a perfect satisfaction to the justice of God, which had condemned us for sin to death, and a fund of infinite merit, which has obtained him the right, without prejudice to justice, to give us sinners pardon of our sins, and grace to have victory over sin and death. The Longer Catechism of the Orthodox, Catholic, and Eastern Church St Philaret, Patriarch of Moscow, 1830.

[@elizabethshaw734]

Abelard had many issues. He was interesting but not okay most of the time.

[@Hospody-Pomylui]

What sirs is the Orthodox explanation of "without blood there is no remission of sin" and whatever your explanation is, how does the Levitical cultus point to it?