Troubleshooting a faulty dog-race timer

[@johnmorgan1629]

It's from North of England, the R is for Red, the T for T'other one.

[@SlartiMarvinbartfast]

This deserves more upvotes. :-)

[@phillipsmiley5930]

Eee Ecky Thump, shut yon yate, Tha's bahn t'catch thi deeath o'cowd

[@twotone3070]

@@phillipsmiley5930 Old Goodies reference, nice.

[@mrb692]

That looks like some proper British “two lads in a shed” engineering!

[@carpdog42]

What I find really interesting about it are the traces. Look at those right angles. Not a problem ofc but, most design software gives you 45 degree bends as just default settings. Maybe the PCB design predates the rest of it? or the original layout was done by hand? Maybe an old design that was updated with 3d printed parts in the last decade or so?

[@mrb692]

@Sideshow Bob's Fan Club A price isn’t set by some percentage above cost, but how much they can sell it for. For a boutique product like a dog racing timer, I would imagine the market is neither particularly short on cash or all that large. If these guys charged less, they could be considered an inferior product (like a off-brand cereal). If the market is large enough to support the increased volume at a lower price, then they’d potentially exceed their production volume.

[@andrewwilson6240]

I know that if I engineered it, it would work but the cases would be old margarine tubs, and the firmware would be completely impossible to understand

[@manolisgledsodakis873]

@Sideshow Bob's Fan Club If we say that a moulding tool is going to cost around £20,000 and the company sells 1000 units per year then the cost of each set of end caps is £20+ to recover the cost of the tool in the first year. That's a big outlay for a small company starting up. So it's understandable why they'd go for the cheaper option, at least until they'd generated some profit.

[@dr_jaymz]

@Sideshow Bob's Fan Club why? For a production run of 25 that would add 100 quid to the bom. Perhaps people think 3d printed is unprofessional? Well hold that thought because passenger jets, their engines and even houses are about to be 3d printed. Or maybe its a bit prototypey? I'm guessing they never really get out of prototype.

[@TYGAMatt]

If Big Clive says it's "pretty good" then whoever designed it should be "pretty happy"

[@Ascania]

Had a snoop around Companies House and looked at the filings for this company. One person, next to no assets, material costs are about 80% of turnover and dividing the turnover by the advertised price they sold 17 units 2018/2019. This is a guy in his shed buiding these things in the evening after work.

[@rolfs2165]

As Drachinifel says about the Lord Clive monitors: "in classic British patched-up-in-the-back-of-a-shed style".

[@Zadster]

For one bloke in his shed, this is some pretty decent design and manufacturing.

[@bigclivedotcom]

Classic British cottage industry. It's where innovation happens.

[@acmefixer1]

@@Zadster He/she/they had to code the software, too. But they did a very big disfavor to any repair person like Clive by defacing the chip. The low volume sales doesn't justify such extreme measures. But the Chinese are such prolific counterfeiters that I can understand their concerns.

[@Jeff-ss6qt]

@@acmefixer1 If there's a JTAG header and the chip supports it, you could just read out the ID and find out what chip it is that way. There's also decapping if they're extremely desperate to find out.

[@craigduncan4826]

Definitely two guys in a shed engineering which as we know is often some of the best British engineering. The harrier jump jet was conceived by a couple guys essentially in a shed. The enigma was broken by some guys in a literal shed.

[@jensgoerke3819]

Cue the music: We are the Men in Sheds...

[@unistrut]

While I do enjoy the videos where you tear down some shoddily made product it is also really nice to hear you praising someone who did a good job.

[@steadfasttherenowned2460]

The thing I like the most about these videos is watching the discovery of how something works in real time.

[@rbmk__1000]

I can't be the only one to wish Clive dogspeed in this latest repair endeavor.

[@generaldisarray]

you know that dog spelled backwards is god...🤣🤣🤣

[@jkobain]

@@generaldisarray exactly, and it is also the reason why.

[@joshmyer9]

If everyone replies "booooo" to this, we can get it to be further up in the list, so more people can join in our suffering. Also, "booooo" is the only appropriate response to this pun. No I'm not just mad that I didn't think of it first, you're projecting if you think that. Booooo. Booooo.

[@jkobain]

@@joshmyer9 why would you like to suffer yourself and us to reply with «booo» to your message? I don't really get it, but if you're thinking that everyone is thinking that you're mad, you might be projecting, I guess.

[@rbmk__1000]

@@joshmyer9 some call me the punisher

[@1nePercentJuice]

I know absolutely NOTHING about electronics but i cannot stop watching your videos on schematics from beginning to end.

[@agurdel]

A lot of comments go for "put a powerbank in there" or similar solutions. As this is not a hobby but an event type device: NO! You have to be able to quickly replace your power source. And charging is not quick. And considering that apparently even handling AA batteries is a problem, what do you think the state of those banks would be? Simple AA batteries are the best solution here. Easy to replace in the middle of an event and readily available. I would consider removing the power switches actually. Sounds weird but it would force the user to put batteries in to power it up and take them back out to "switch" it off. ofc you can still buck that up, but the ultimate dumb user would keep the switch in the on position anyway.

[@russellhltn1396]

I agree. If you run out of power during an event, just go to the nearest store and you're back in business.

[@steveosshenanigans]

Or you could get organised and make sure their all charged the day before ……..what is it they say ? …….Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

[@DoctorWhom]

@@steveosshenanigans Avoiding rechargeable batteries falls under "prior planning"

[@EmyrDerfel]

Given there are two per unit, just buying a fresh 8 pack before an event would make sure they've all got matched pairs. If you can't reliably get two full events without running flat, swap in new ones, and use the part-worns to run clocks, shavers and other stuff that goes flat at inopportune times.

[@pilkjaer]

Mixing batteries will be even more of an issue. Recieving and transmitting sides would probably drain the differently. As someone suggested, just put new batteries each time. Those type of events are sure no cheap so they can spend £5 on them.

[@paulmartin42]

At 4.30 you describe why you should not mix batteries, as we are exhorted by manufacturers. Your explanation mentions reverse charging ... maybe a longer video on the topic is possible.

[@pdroa6666]

i second this

[@daniel635biturbo]

In said video we will also like to see if (when) charged and depleted batteries bounce different 😉

[@BoB4jjjjs]

We all used to mix batteries when we were kids, didn't appear to make much difference, we also used to sit them on top of a stove to heat them up, this made them last a few days longer, every time we did this they would last a day less until they would just die, or the carbon rod would pop out of the battery. Sometimes the carbon rod would come out with a lot of force if we heated them to much or for to long. Come to think of it, we very rarely had leaky batteries back then, not until they were left sitting flat in something for about a year or more! Batteries appear to leak a lot quicker these days!

[@eliotmansfield]

Dave at eev blog has been trying to make batteries leak without much success, i dont think he’s tried mixing them up?

[@BoB4jjjjs]

@@eliotmansfield I know, it is quite ironic that his ones will not leak, even though he used the same make as he had leak before!

[@joshfriesen9401]

Clive is very kind to repair things for everyone. He doesn’t care who you are

[@Mr.T4LLY-0]

You can't beat 'Home-Brew' and well made as you said. Nice tear down of a different vein for a change. Still love what you do, as you have a clue, whereas I'm still on that learning curve.

[@brianmiller6320]

Maybe a good candidate for powering by a single 18650 cell recharging via a micro usb socket?

[@Fridelain]

I'd rather USB-C

[@andrewwilson6240]

I wonder if predates the modern power supply techniques?

[@ProtonOne11]

They way the system is built, all thru hole technology, i guess who ever makes these units is not comfortable with SMD soldering. So that kinda kills all USB/USB-C connectors, unless you get presoldered modules for that and connect them over some standard header pins to the existing system.

[@dr_jaymz]

I think you could do use that 18650 with minimal regulation into an esp32 in deep sleep with single button and auto off and have almost a single chip solution for just pennies. On the receiving end it could still be an esp32 and you'd be able to view the results via your phone. The trick would be how to synchronise the event clocks because bluetooth and wifi stacks would have variable delays so it would have to send the timestamp. The cost is still in the enclosure faff.

[@dr_jaymz]

I think you could do use that 18650 with minimal regulation into an esp32 in deep sleep with single button and auto off and have almost a single chip solution for just pennies. On the receiving end it could still be an esp32 and you'd be able to view the results via your phone. The trick would be how to synchronise the event clocks because bluetooth and wifi stacks would have variable delays so it would have to send the timestamp. The cost is still in the enclosure faff.

[@TheCommuted]

The replacement device (they may not have discovered it yet) is crazy simple. It's call a moving picture camera, of the digital variety. Paint a line on the opposite wall and the first animal to occlude a pixel of the painter line is the winner. Frames per second is your resolution.

[@DickHolman]

Just like dog & horse racing tracks have done for decades you mean? It's the origin of the phrase 'A photo-finish'. It can't give the time over distance, just who crosses the line first. This is a timing device, for measuring speed, nothing else.

[@ziginox]

Can confirm that these sorts of things are pretty low-volume. We dealt with a couple of sets for autocross purposes, and they all used generic housings in some form or another. In one set, the receiver that plugged into a computer was a generic hobby box. On another, the electric eye portions were generic extruded aluminum cases.

[@markharrisllb]

It was nice to see a circuit with parts where even I could recognise a couple of them. There used to be a dog track on the I.o.M. called 'Dumpton', it amused me as a young lad on holiday there in the early 70s.

[@richarddunkling2807]

Clive - I have found vinegar and an old tooth brush will remove the crud from battery housings. Just need to be careful not to get it in contact with a pcb. Rinse off with water and once again with isopropanol. Dry with a hair dryer and coat with a spray contact cleaner or a drop of silicon grease to prevent further damage.

[@manolisgledsodakis873]

Silicon isn't at all greasy. In fact it's brittle. Silicone would be better.

[@zh84]

It's good to see something which is not designed to obstruct disassembly and repair. If Apple built this, it would be ultrasonically welded shut and you'd have to pay £600 to the Genius Bar to get it "repaired" - meaning "replaced".

[@echothehusky]

They did scrub off part numbers though!

[@tonyhill8300]

how dare you !! apple stuff is the best!

[@agenericaccount3935]

Extremely boutique. I guess the club needs a lesson in taking batteries out when in storage, and Not Mixing Batteries. If they are a canine club, maybe ask them if they would mix breeds. If they wouldn’t, they shouldn’t mix batteries. Also what a cool set of innards.

[@keithking1985]

HA! HA! FUCKING BRILLIANT : )

[@steveoddlers9696]

Or just tell them to use 1.5V Lithium AAs, they should be great for this. More expensive than alkalines, but they hold up way longer and they won't ruin your nice gear. If you put them in a TV remote they will probably outlast the TV.

[@moconnell663]

As much as I hate specialty batteries, CR123 cells might be the way to go. It forces you to use lithium batteries as opposed to potentially allowing them to use any old AA cells.

[@Asptuber]

No, don't do the "mix breeds" analogy! Until this video I'd only ever heard this type of explanation for not mixing batteries (ie less efficient outcome), and it never really made much sense for normal household applications. The canine equivalent here would be that it is ok to mix breeds if you only want cuddly sweet puppies with little thought for performance. The explanation Clive gives here OTOH actually does make sense, and motivates me to not mix batteries in the future except for short term emergencies. In dog terms this would be that if you mix breeds the resulting puppies might be cute, but they will kill their family, chew up the house and get you thrown in jail with broken bones. (Oh no, I've just talked myself into an analogy where cute mixed puppies should all be euthanised before they are fully grown... This channel does weird unexpected things to my mind.) So no, batteries are not like dog breeds.

[@agenericaccount3935]

@@Asptuber calm down

[@A-Negative]

I’m just here to listen to Clive explain things I never before thought about or cared about.

[@nathantron]

These are really well made. Got to love small time companies that actually care about their products. BRAVO! I want to see the controller XD

[@tbelding]

This looks like a good set of items for retrofitting with garden light solar panels. They'd also be a lot more tolerant of being stored over a winter.

[@greenaum]

I dunno, it'd confuse people who wouldn't get why they have to put batteries in it. There's a language of functionality built into product design, a protocol between the public and manufacturers, where certain things work certain ways. Beside that, I doubt you'd leave these outside all year would you? They're 700 quid! Don't they lock them up indoors somewhere between races?

[@acmefixer1]

It's really nice that the whole thing is wireless. If that battery holder company is nice, they could sell a set of replacement springs and contacts. I've made contacts out of tin can lids, it's not too hard with a sharp scissors. A little pounding and bending and there is a workable contact. I wish it was as easy to replace the spring.

[@H4rleyBoy]

I am electrickery ignorant Clive but I really enjoy most of your videos, as you explain so well and the humour isn't lost on me, I have an interest in what you do, but zero understanding usually, doesn't halt the joy, keep on keeping on lad. I thought I had subscribed years ago, I shall remedy that right away.

[@benbaselet2026]

Tinkering with these kinds of fairly simple but specialized things in a small company shop would be such a nice job :) Especially if I could sell loads of them for £685 a set... :-)

[@mrj4264]

I will give you £3.59

[@james2k2]

I work for a company who does exactly this kind of bespoke gear (well we do AV, Software development, 3d and 2d graphical assets and electronics with AV integration)! And yes, it is a very nice job and very enjoyable.

[@keithking1985]

would love to do something like that...

[@M0UAW_IO83]

Yup, years ago I got an email from someone who ran just such a place, we'd been participating in some of the newsthreads on usenet and he'd decided he needed to interview me for a job, fascinating bloke, he ran a reasonably successful business designing bespoke products around PSOC chips and a couple of others. Occasionally wonder what it might have lead to but I had a mortgage, small children and sadly he could only offer part time which I just couldn't make work for me at the time.

[@ChlorideCull]

Having helped my dad repair some specialized equipment that costs around €1500 to replace, and turned out to just be off the shelf components with a total cost of €80, I have to agree :)

[@rpavlik1]

Very interesting to see this small scale manufactured stuff. I like the 3d printed caps on bulk tubing solution for housings, might have to use that one myself. That's one nice thing about rechargeable NiMH cells, they don't leak as often as alkalines, at least for me. Here's hoping I haven't just jinxed myself.

[@bigclivedotcom]

I've come to the same conclusion, and with the low self discharge cells they are now viable for use in low current items.

[@KJ6EAD]

I've gone to exclusively Li primary cells for anything that's not rechargeable; costs twice as much and lasts twice as long while never leaking, working at extreme temperatures, being lightweight and having a shelf life measured in decades.

[@KJ6EAD]

The tubing is extruded PVC.

[@Coconut-219]

@@KJ6EAD Used them all the time in stuff like remotes, easily can cut the weight in half compared to usual the difference is surprising.

[@m.k.8158]

actually, I'd go 1 step further and say that they basically NEVER leak, with the proviso that if they are being over charged over a long period of time, they MIGHT leak. And, yes I use them in just about everything.

[@boudicca7181]

Thanks Clive. I am not a technical person but I enjoy all your videos especially the live streams every Saturday evening.

[@boudicca7181]

Thank you:)

[@mikeselectricstuff]

I bet those scrubbed chips are Holtek or similar remote encoders/decoders - maybe they couldn't figure out how to do the encoding/decoding in software.

[@Graham_Langley]

That was my thinking, but they seem to have not taken full advantage of them to have different codes for the green and red pairs which makes me wonder why they bothered with encoding at all. Could it be that they couldn't get the 1ms timing accuracy with the Rx micro doing both decoding and keeping in contact with the timer - maybe they're not doing a simple decode until the beam is broken then transmit to the timer? And why is there a micro in the Tx? (Sorry if I've missed something - I'm dealing with a splitting headache ATM.)

[@bigclivedotcom]

It's probably just easier to do it with a dedicated chip.

[@randallgoldapp9510]

There is a good arduino library for IR receiving and transmitting. I used it for a IR remote tester that can read the codes of most remotes running at 38 Khz.

[@dglcomputers1498]

Mike's now got to the point where he can reverse engineer an unknown chip just by looking at it!

[@SeanBZA]

@@Graham_Langley Probably was easier to implement than get the IR library. 18 pin IC which is pretty cheap, has been around for a long time and which does all the encoding for the IR transmitter, and the matching one for the receiver that does the same. Transmitter microcontroller just has to sleep most of the time, and poll the power supply voltage and the indicator LED's, and likely both transmitter and receiver use the same program, as it really is only there to do supervisory things. The transmit and receive are separate, and the wireless link likely uses another Holtek unit as well, to give the link to the base station. Using a set of IC's with a known delay means you can get good time resolution, even if there will be a delay, it is consistent, and thus with identical units can be removed easily. Likely only difference between the 2 beam units is the fixed transmit address, probably one is set for 111111111111 and the other for 111111111110, to give the simplest pattern that will still decode well. As most of the program pins are floating that pattern is the most likely.

[@conorrocks7]

huh i always thought those warnings about mixing batteries were bullshit. I though it was just a liability/ "buy new batteries from us" thing. this is good to know. I feel like a dumbass now.

[@Coconut-219]

Does that mean that you can mix batteries if they are all fully charged though since only back charging matters? also greetings timetraveler.

[@Mark1024MAK]

@@Coconut-219 - No, it’s not good practice to mix different makes or types of any series connected cell or battery. Whether primary (non-rechargeable) or secondary (rechargeable) types. You should also not mix cells or batteries that were bought at different times, as the capacity is very unlikely to be similar. Secondary cells and batteries loose capacity over time and with every charge/discharge cycle. So to be totally clear, if cells or batteries are used in a series chain, only use cells or batteries that were bought in the same pack. And try to buy from a shop that has a high turnover of batteries. For secondary cells or batteries, keep them as a set and recharge them at the same time, so they all get the same amount of charge. And are all the same age.

[@tbelding]

The worst batteries to do this to are CR123 Lithium primary cells, as you find in many 'security' flashlights. The advice there is to not only mix the batteries, new and old, but check each with a voltmeter and make sure to only match up batteries with the same voltage. I've seen clips of the damage done by one that went reverse charge, including two snapshots from a security camera showing the thing arcing through the air after punching through a (plastic) doorframe. They also produce a large amount of vaporous hydrofluoric acid when they blow.

[@MarshaJ8800TU]

Yep, the six pin header is probably the Atmel/Arduino style programming header.

[@louispoche4312]

when you powered up the base unit it said that one of the transmitter batteries was low.. but the emitters don't have rf modules.. possibly they are sending their battery status to the receivers via the light pulses

[@tweed532]

Very cool kit, remember my College project designing a stop watch timer for a 6 lane slot car track using 74xx TTL zonks back in 1974. Talking of timing, by coincidence I '👍' when it was 555 likes. Scary...😨

[@deathlydarkness]

I enjoyed how excited you were while reviewing this one.

[@EnvAdam]

looks like it would be a neat idea to put a cheapy battery bank type PCB inside here that would handle a generic li-po battery.

[@Lazy_Tim]

Very good construction for such a low volume item.

[@christopherguy1217]

Clean the corrosion with vinegar and rinse with water. This is a good candidate for LiFePO4 14500 battery with a hollow pass through AA battery shell. 3.2v is close, they tolerate abuse and are easily recharged. They can remove them after each event to recharge as the capacity is 1/3 of an alkaline, about 600-800 mAh.

[@Sherwin657]

It's super interesting to see a low volume product like this. makes me wonder what they would have done before 3D printing was a thing.

[@superdau]

CNC mill it out of a piece of plastic. And I wouldn't call it the way "before 3D printing". You only 3D prints parts like this, when you don't have access to a CNC, because that would be the right tool. The endcaps don't have any features that require a 3D print. It doesn't even look like you'd need several endmills or reclamp the part in a different orientation. The parts would be done within minutes on a CNC, as opposed to hours of the 3D printed version. And a lot cheaper, too.

[@Sherwin657]

@@superdau ah of course. I don't know why milling hadn't occurred to me

[@PsiQ]

i used standard aluminium cases and boxes (ip65) and standard industry laser detectors with standard industry reflectors. It does not really get better or more stable with the 3D printing, just cheaper for the manufacturer. i would not think this holds up to getting run over or stomped on by a person or kicked away in an accident. next point is how and where to fix the beams properly to get a small dog, large dog or jumping dog with four legs giving four or only one trigger signal on each pass...

[@MazeFrame]

7:06 I have a couple "Gaptec" DC-DC modules that look very similar to those. Are pretty neat for battery powered applications like this.

[@SteveGuidi]

I've had some luck with salvaging corroded AA and AAA battery contacts for children's toys and things where the extra resistance from the corrosion doesn't matter that much. White vinegar will neutralize the leaking alkaline electrolyte, and then a quick scrub will remove any loose material. Of course, depending on the level of corrosion it may be easier to replace the contacts or device entirely.

[@frankowalker4662]

I like the design of these. They could also be used for track runners and cyclists for time trials and training.

[@spasticmuse4262]

Of course to do a proper job(especially when it's for someone else), replacing the holders would be best. Alternately, one could give the contacts a bit of a soak & scrub in white vinegar which will neutralize the alkaline electrolyte and remove most if not all corrosion. Depending on the condition of the contact afterwards, one may want to tin the contact with a coating of solder to "refresh" it.

[@pilkjaer]

I was also surprised why Clive didn't want to try it. At the same time, considering how expensive the equipment is, how critical it is and how much money they probably make/charge they probably should just replace them with new ones.

[@quicksilver285]

Great video. Loved getting to see the insides of custom electronics. Interesting to see 3d printed parts used as the final product.

[@PsiQ]

hah. i came into repairing those things as hobby, the old expensive non programmable chip ones.. started with the connectors which had been worn out because tiny and not for rugged use... went over to xlr for those... then the cables, the beam detectors (old ones where dual mirror based versions).. some hurdles, wood then metal.. ended building two way wireless transmitters for the og cable versions (problem was keeping switching/transmit delays to a minimum and constant under 200mS) ended up having to use "iris base" kits for legal issues, CE and wee.. start/stop signals.. final versions i built were with wireless start and stop sign, multi laser detectors at the hurdles (since small and large dogs, up to four beams for start stop).. multiple stopping times , serial interface to software... i had built one with an arduino but would have had to spend high money to get it legally sold with CE weee and other monopolymafia EU stuff. Ended up building ones with siemens logo, standard industry reflector laser detectors, a lot more expensive but " legal to sell" without risking getting sued. kinda complex program because i made for 8 stopping times and 10ms resolution.. because dogs have for legs to possibly break the beams when they pass once and the human with two also running through. since nobody ever takes care of those things beforehand until 10 minutes before they need to work i went for cheap BabyC battery holders (external) and usb power packs. aaand always cable option as backup for complete failure to provide batteries or usb power banks or wireless problems. And of course everything needs to be really rugged and waterproof. and in my versions easy to use without manual, idiot proof and made to last forever. lasting forever/cheap repair also means dead market, no long term money to be earned. professional sets went upwards of 3 to 5k bucks depending on what you wanted. i sold them for cheap couse hobby and it was 50:50 time to components cost and easily doable for 1k bucks. luxury all in was around 1.5k. If i finally find the time i'm gonna go kinda open source and make a workshop so the clubs can build/use their own sets. using 2 or 3 siemens logo 0BA8 upwards as a mesh, with the now integrated lan ,webservers and wlan access points and using large boxes makes the hardware really cheap.

[@treelineresearch3387]

That is indeed a programming header, AVR ISP. I'd have tried to dump the AVR just for laughs on the off chance they sanded the tx/rx chip but didn't set the lock bit on the micro. Have found a couple of examples of this in the wild, the HP blade server turbine fan controller boards have an unlocked PIC you can dump the firmware out of, and both variants of it I've encountered (with different PICs) are unlocked. I was pretty shocked that a company like HP would let that happen.

[@bigclivedotcom]

I'd expect most sole traders to be quite secure about their code. But an example of code escaping into the wild is the ELM OBD scan tools. Most of the units sold on eBay are using stolen software.

[@thetezz0001]

Nice custom peace of kit, i bet for the most part made by hand by a small team in a shed looks well made

[@bigclivedotcom]

Possibly just one person.

[@co.1157]

I had not heard of mixing batteries before this show, thanks for the warning.

[@j_o_h_n_d_u_n_n]

Possibly R & T on the chips denotes receive/transmit ?🤔

[@hyperboloidofonesheet1036]

R=red, T=thru, maybe a G=green? I was thinking they could be PROMs.

[@pilkjaer]

Cool solution would be to 3d print a holder like the one used to charge walkie talkies (like a big tray with many holes to put radios in). This way you could just have 2 contacts on the back ofthe units and after the event you just slot them in to charge them so they are ready for the next event.

[@sparkyprojects]

For the amount of times that system would be used and stored in a box, i might consider using lipo with good battery management and auto shut off I know that's 5 units total, but that could be reduced to 3, where i worked we had electric gates, one system we had was reflective, the 'transmitter' boxes could have had 2 mirrors like a periscope so there would be 2 beams to break as with those units.

[@tbelding]

I think in an application like this, KISS is the key. With four boxes, it's simple. If you start reducing things down, you start making it more complicated.

[@emu071981]

You would be better off with a retro reflector instead of a periscope arrangement. This would make manufacturing a whole lot easier but also make alignment during field setup a bit more of a pain.

[@bigclivedotcom]

I wonder if one of the reasons they have two separate beams is to avoid false triggering by leaves or insects breaking a single beam.

[@sparkyprojects]

@@bigclivedotcom Exactly, there's 2 beams for a reason, maybe different heights of dogs

[@securityrobot]

Thanks for the tip about the pitfalls of mixing batteries, I never knew about this.

[@EarlySwerver]

I was happy you didn't reverse engineer this. It looks like they deserve their niche.

[@kruppin]

Not really that complicated though.😅

[@bigclivedotcom]

Not so bad with modern stuff like Arduinos. But the original design and subsequent fine tuning would have involved a lot of work.

[@kruppin]

@@bigclivedotcom Yeah, i have no idea when the original design is from. Didnt look that old, some people just cant resist through hole, you know. 😏 But seriously though, the software shouldnt been super hard when using external encoder/decoder, if that is what is was. And yeah, nowadays with arduino and ready made libraries for about everything, even I can code more complex stuff. 😁 Coding is not my strong area though. But thanks for good content as always! ❤️

[@PsiQ]

@@kruppin for my arduino dog timer i used the "time since start" (dont remember the name, been some years) its in mS and if i remember correctly it overflows after some hours, so fine for every race unless its 24hours le mans, even then you could just use another counter. I stored that "uptime" value in a variable when start got triggered, when stop gets triggered i again stored the time and did simple subtraction. Afterwards you can fiddle for a conversion from seconds to minutes but usually ss:ms (sss:ms) is fine. Detecting the 4 dog legs, finding the right dead time between stop signals and setting up the laser detectors for large, small, running and jumping dogs is harder. For a good scenario you get 1 - 6 start triggers from human + dog and 1 to 6 stop triggers. Sometimes the diff between dog and human is also nice to know, sometimes its team parcours with multiple dogs + humans ... ;-) Next problem is reliability and trigger time for wireless. Delay on trigger is not that important, if its always 100ms or 200mS its fine, it just cant be 100mS for one runner and 1000mS for the next, since rules still allow "hand controlled" stopwatches it doesnt need to be that fast but should be "fair".

[@DickHolman]

@@PsiQ -hand stopclocks- stopwatch

[@H3wastooshort]

The programming header is most likely ICSP ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Circuit_Serial_Programming_(ICSP) ) It has 6 pins. One GND one VCC a reset line and 3 more for SPI communication. it is common to most AVR micros.

[@dashcamandy2242]

I kept getting distracted by the use of an adjective where an adverb should be. "Time it Perfect-LY" Otherwise - this looks like a homebrew device built by someone with more than a passing knowledge of electronics and product design. I'm quite impressed!

[@bigclivedotcom]

Not anywhere near as bad as the manual for Siemens Logo! logic controllers. Because they used an exclamation mark as part of the brand, and the word Logo! had one every time they said Logo! in the manual. And they said Logo! quite a lot, as in to set up the Logo! hold the lock button on Logo! until the Logo! display flashes, and then press the set button on Logo! to increment through the Logo! options.

[@haroldsmith45302]

Thanks for the interesting video. Does this demonstrate the desirability of designs that use only external (and therefore easily replaced) battery holders for costly electronic devices?

[@bigclivedotcom]

It demonstrates the need to remove batteries in storage and have a fresh new set for major events.

[@Maikshifter]

Given the pin count and position of the crystal, I would wager those micro-controllers chips are ATmega328's running 8Mhz with an Arduino bootloader and arduino based application code. And the 6 pin header is the standard ICSP programming interface, used to upload new code while in circuit.. Classic ATmel based stuff.

[@shemp308]

Looks like someone put a lot of time and workmanship into this! To bad Someone took the battery's out of the smoke detector. Wonder how his/her house is? But now you know why they didn't give it back to the designer.

[@brianharper9798]

I use the pound shop power banks, usually the single cell ones. Strip them out of their case and mount them in my projects. Gives me a nice 5v supply and USB charging. Can't go wrong at just a couple of ££....,.

[@originaltonywilk]

You can still get the Bulgin BX0012/1 from CPC (by now you already know that!) They should manage batteries like you should for stage mics etc. - always use new batteries for an event and take them out at the end. :)

[@chrishartley1210]

If the batteries were in there long enough they would have had bulging battery holders. I'll get my coat. RS stock Bulgin battery holders, 2 different types for 2AA in line.

[@assassinlexx1993]

So the tubes are made in Bulgaria? It is hot outside no need for hat.

[@tonyjover]

And CPC stock them for less than a third of RS's price.

[@tonyjover]

Sorry - around half the price. RS £9.64 inc, CPC £4.96 inc.

[@theoldbigmoose]

Nice battery holder... but pricey!

[@drkastenbrot]

Those battery holders are still readily available and super easy to find.

[@devttyUSB0]

I'm curious about the precision / lag of the wireless transmission in timekeeping here. Well, as long as the offset is the same for every run it should be OK.

[@jkobain]

Should be negligible, IMO. Yet a subject to investigation, tho. ;D

[@sebastiannielsen]

Its not a problem, as the position of the receiver and the transmitters will be the same for same track anyways. Meaning times will be comparable, both between dog runs on the same track on the same event, and also cross-event, even if the time is not "true" in the sense that its the real time from start to stop, the start-offset will be same between runs, and stop-offset will be same between runs. If you want to compare against events which uses a different timekeeping solution - for example RFID-based ones with bracelets, only thing you have to do, is to position the receiver in the exact same distance from the start and stop transmitter, so the start-offset becomes the same as the stop-offset, thus the solution gives the true time. On different tracks, it would of course not be possible to position the transmitter and receiver the same way, thus giving different offsets, but that wouldn't matter anyways, since you can't compare times from different tracks regardless. (You could position them with the same distance to get a true time as described above, but that might not be possible if the referee that needs to watch the time can't be positioned in the middle between start and goal)

[@jkobain]

@@sebastiannielsen there in fact is a way: you can keep time on the endpoints, from the control unit measure the distance (actually the echo delay) to both ends, get them both more or less synced, and this way they can report a timestamp, so the propagation delay doesn't matter any more. Requires proper calibration, delivery confirmation from the control unit (and retransmission if the message has been lost in transit), a decent timekeeping subsystem ×3, but other than that - should suffice. And by the way, there's no such thing as «true time».

[@superdau]

Lag would be irrelevant because it happens for the starting transmitter as well as for the stopping transmitter, so cancels out. That assumes both transmitters use the same firmware (meaning the time from the light beam being broken and the "packet" being sent out over RF is the same), but I can't think of a reason why it shouldn't be identical. The distance to the receiver can be completely ignored. Light travels 300km in a 1ms, which is the resolution of the timer. The biggest source for inaccuracy will be the crystal that clocks the the receiver. The time will as accurate as the crystal is to its supposed frequency.

[@dave0smeg]

With a slight change to the 3D printed part at the bottom, those look like they could fit the cheap powerbank circuit and 18650 cell.

[@RS-Amsterdam]

Great job Clive, although you didn't bark, you deserve that cooky !!

[@ricgreen1]

I hope the people who made the device watched the video and saw your compliments. :)

[@joeennis2571]

great to hear they can be saved ,enough stuff going to landfill

[@grhmsmth]

Look like Bulgin BXS012/1 battery holders - available from several suppliers though most are currently out of stock at the moment and are on back order

[@TheDefpom]

Most likely a problem from moisture causing corrosion on the battery connections, I fix a similar system called Farmtek, I’ve done several videos on them along with a custom interface I designed and built to do live online results. My last video on them did some reverse engineering of the transmitter showing how the LEDs are encoded by the microcontroller.

[@bigclivedotcom]

I deliberately didn't go deep on the unit, as it's clearly a small company.

[@cornwallonline]

RS still sell the battery holders - happened on them a while ago...they are still in stock, I just checked!

[@stephtronix1811]

Or convert them to LI-ION and USB charger ports, depending on how munch they are willing to spend in fixing or modifying the units! Great video as always, see you in the next one, peace Clive!

[@KJ6EAD]

Spend!? The owner was too cheap to put a new set of matching batteries in the last time they were used.

[@Darieee]

li-ion & tp4056s all round 🔥

[@tuttocrafting]

How.is it going with Bluetooth hacking and the soap dispenser?!

[@sincerelyyours7538]

Looks like an easy fix. I'd desolder the battery contacts and dunk them and the springs in a cup of ordinary white vinegar. When the bubbles stop wash the parts in distilled water and resolder them back in place. Tell the club to stop mixing batteries and remove them after each day's use, and the kit should last for many races to come.

[@bigclivedotcom]

I did that and included instructions for battery usage.

[@DHealey]

Is there a problem with the cap next to the boost regulator on the transmit board? Doesn't look healthy...

[@carlyonbay45]

This is fascinating 😳 I had no idea something like this actually existed

[@pinaz993]

Could you mod it to take something less prone to mistakes? A single 18650 would be more than enough energy storage, but I don't remember the voltage output off the top of my head.

[@Novel_Poe]

I actually like that white power switch I should use them in my project

[@almostanengineer]

Looks like those battery holders are still readily avalible, though not cheap at £8-20 each dependant on which of the top four electrical wholesalers you go to :o (Bulgin BXS012/1)

[@IncertusetNescio]

Quite a few things look "bargain binned" or customized on this starting with the case itself. You mention the caps and somewhat the tubing (seems like off the shelf square plastic tubing with holes drilled in specific spots) and then I notice the antenna. It's one of the standard (often found in PCs) RF antenna you'd find on a WIFI or BT module or the case nearby it (mine has two, my drawer has 4 similar others). The module itself looks like (but not quite) something you'd find in a laptop. For those daughter boards I bet you can get those or similar on eBay for ~$0.10 apiece. I wonder if the scrubbed chips are some sort of memory chip. Would make sense for the microcontroller nearby. If you can't see what make/model of memory it is you have more trouble pirating their software onboard those chips to rip their design off. Won't stop the hardcore ones but will the casual. Games consoles have historically had issues with separate memory modules being easily targeted by modders since the bus lines (board traces and chip contacts) were physically exposed and probe-able. A LOT of what you needed to do for those exposed lines was listen to them on boot to see what they sent to either rip the BIOS to mod it or to see what handshakes it did and replicate them with a soldered-on chip to play whatever games you wanted (usually pirated discs). The more advanced ones later used those attack avenues to run homebrew. What the designers did later in one case was integrate the boot memory into the CPU or other important chip so you couldn't attack it.

[@etch3130]

It's not that it's bargain binned per se. Antennas are standard parts with thousands of R and D dollars spent already so why reinvent the wheel by custom designing something. The same with the RF module, it works perfectly for the application so why spend money designing something to serve the same function?

[@MrDbone75]

Good Thursday morning to you sir from Wellington Somerset

[@herr_barus]

Next Video: he puts in a single 18650 in every unit.

[@72polara]

Nice to see something here that is not shit. Looks to be a very well thought out and built specialist device.

[@sasakurtovic6850]

Could one accommodate a generic 18650 holder/powerbank you showed earlier and then use that to power this? Swappable and rechargeable battery packs. 😀

[@wino99999]

Farnell also stock the holders but out of stock!

[@illiteratebeef]

Those battery holders are definitely still around, I was looking at them for a project recently. Pretty pricey though.

[@matt_uk]

I found them at CPC for £5.74 (inc. VAT) each: cpc.farnell.com/bulgin/bx0012-1/panel-mounting-aa-d/dp/BT01654 Not exactly peanuts, but not that expensive IMO.

[@davelowets]

Could you clean up the battery holders, then solder a proper battery spring onto the negative terminal, and get them to work again?

[@RcAircraft]

I liked this tear down. As it is a portable device maybe you could solder in a rechargeable battery and charging port.

[@bartomiej368]

I notice one thing, since only rx unit have rf transmitter, but both (rx and tx units) have low battery indicator, then it must send low battery info via ir led from tx to rx and then rx unit sends it to controller, neat.

[@twistedrisers8425]

RS have the battery holders in stock.

[@MrDubje]

It doesn't make much sense but that rubbed off chip could be a preprogrammed microchip PIC of some sort, as they're often 18 pin packages. It could be that the "manufacturer/owner" programs them themselves, one for Transmit, one for Receive, and rubs the data off in the process. Then they supply their "custom" IC to the OEM/assembler which solders them to the boards. Just a guess though, but it has the looks of it. If it was done at an assembler's place, they probably didn't have to mark them T and R as both boards would become different projects with their own supplied parts to be programmed for that project (receiver or transmitter). And even if an assembler felt the need to label them, it would probably be done so with little stickers. Pro's with this approach would be to save time and money with assembling, they don't have to pay the assembler to program and rub/laser away the markings. With this low volume it's perfectly do-able at home, by the clever lad that developed this gadget.

[@kuhrd]

If I was fixing these I would either clean the contacts or just cut new ones out of copper using the old ones as a guide and using a solder pot to tin them before installation. Then replace the springs and have them use only Lithium primaries and job done.

[@McTroyd]

As I'm sure 900 people have told you by now, that six pin connection is probably an Arduino ICSP header. Very likely this is programmable with the Arduino IDE.

[@TheSoundmanPete]

The eraser on a pencil makes a good battery cleaning tool.

[@chriholt]

All I kept hearing in my head was "Time it PerfectLY"

[@PsiQ]

there is a lot more in those events then just running from a to b. its parcours with/without the humans running along, going through the right spots, tunnels, over ramps and tables and even tricks on command, sitting down at the exactly right spot out of full speed run, staying for an xact amount.. and there are error and time penalties . more complex then olympic horse parcours because there is no rider in direct control.

[@TheColinputer]

Id say at some dog club somewhere. One of the guys built a prototype for their club. Then people were like. "you should sell this!"

[@mrsheesh3743]

I see a few Bulgin battery holders on eBay, BX0012 dual AA holders at AU $20ish? Or hack a PC board part to replace them? 3D print replacement battery holders? Hmm, easy way, Mouser (US) has lots of them, worst case.

[@rialtho_the_magnificent]

"Simply" batteries. if you read carefully you will notice it says 'by Duracell' i.e. it's not a knockoff, but made under the brand name so people think it is a Duracell battery (which it is) but not the 'good' ones. I've had these batteries and was surprised they lasted not as long as expected, when I noticed. Also, the price was considerately lower, but in the end they are more expensive.

[@bigclivedotcom]

I tested some and they had much lower capacity. Duracell is just a generic brand these days.

[@erikdenhouter]

Put battery holder in vinegar, buy 1 mm rust free spring steal and make a spring, and solder (or make) a new plate on the contact.

[@Arachnoid_of_the_underverse]

Looks a well designed system, would it not be better preserved from the elements if it were potted and a separate battery pack like those used in cameras?

[@bigclivedotcom]

I think they're trying to keep it as simple as possible.

[@MrHack4never]

I would use a USB power bank instead of the single use batteries, that would mean you don't have to hunt batteries in the future

[@drkastenbrot]

I had to design luxury items that only go on display about once a year and are supposed to last for decades. After lots of tinkering with pacemaker cells and whatnot I found USB power banks to be ideal since they are always easy to find, even in 20 years and the flexibility to alternatively use a usb power supply is also nice. In fact, I got one story back of the power bank getting misplaced and they could simply buy one in the first store they went to and continue as planned.

[@PsiQ]

i design my stuff to work with usb power or battery packs (edit: at the same time, so needs run from 5 to 7V or more as input). if you have a power pack or standard usb supply , pc, laptop etc around everything is fine. if you need to run it off 4 AAs for whatever emergency reason just use the battery holder.

[@keithking1985]

@@drkastenbrot very nice. well done my friend. : )

[@keithking1985]

@@PsiQ a TP4056 (or a pound-land power pack board to be naughty as Clive would say. also handy with its 5V boost circuit on it. ; )) & your set all day long my friend..

[@PsiQ]

@@keithking1985 uhm. I wrote usb? so usb power banks can be used, just not integrated. problem here (europe) if you sell or even "build for free" and integrate another pcb (as stupid as "a led" "active components") youd have to redo CE and EMV testing. Thats why i use usb or a dumb passive battery holder. A battery holder has no electronics (=no ce or emv) and the customer can use whatever he has around which has usb out or that. No problem for the producer. Its not worth getting sued and having to pay test labs for a 20 bucks job. Law basically says you have to recertify (CE/EMV) and redo WEEE registration if you add or change a resistor :-( No problem for big companies but the reason you can only sell diy kits as hobbyist. If it is to be self assembled, the person building it is the producer/importer, if thats a private user its no issue. If you assemble it for someone (even for free/gift) you are liable if some asshole wants to sue.