TRU3TA1ENT VS OTZDARVA - THE BIG DEBATE THE REHASH 2024! (have minds changed?)

TRU3TA1ENT VS OTZDARVA - THE BIG DEBATE THE REHASH 2024! (have minds changed?)
#tru3ta1ent #otzdarva #nototzdarva #debate #dbd

[@notOtzdarva]

Sorry for still cutting you off sometimes during this chat! - I could not see your camera directly which makes it hard to know when the other person is about to talk!

[@HoneyDog]

This is great! I love to see content creators in this space have actual discussions with each other. It’s particularly refreshing considering some people love to have a “us vs them” mindset, especially when video games balance is involved.

[@ItsAlpa]

Was actually a really good chat. You guys should make it like an annual thing. Could be pretty cool

[@umutyigit4918]

I would love a Mini podcast with you and True. After each update get together and talk about the new killer and survivor, how you feel about it. Any cool builds, ideas, tecks.

[@idkfa1000000]

love the discussions. i think it can only do good for the community to have these talks about everything from balance to enjoyment of the game.

[@PoRco1x]

"Sometimes" is an understatement.

[@Tehbozak]

Should be a monthly show. 30 mins of just the state of the game or when there is an update. Great video!

[@AdrianoTg]

I think if devs actually listened and took everything content creators & fog whisperers had to offer, then a lot more discussions would be had. But its just not worth the time and energy to do it, especially on a regular basis. But I wish so too.

[@R0x0r]

Feel like every mid chapter update would be cool

[@Thomastm33]

I really enjoy podcast format like this.

[@erg1947]

That's probably too often, even every mid chapter is a bit much since some have less to talk about than others.

[@Itz_Chloe_619]

Monthly might be too often but maybe like halfway between chapters 🤷‍♀️

[@JayKayGame.]

Absolute chads talking about the game. Should have more of this rather than waiting 3+ years for a debate

[@Maco-i8h]

So true

[@Keyawnce]

Gag them!

[@59superdude]

Wouldn’t mind this every major update/ couple of chapters

[@kimberg2539]

if only behaviour could listen to ideas threwn around in these chats and consider some of it...

[@muysli.y1855]

Once a year would great

[@ashley-bd5ik]

2:43 - Small tweaks to the game that make a big difference 5:00 - Altruism/taking hits for teammates/flashlight saves and timing 9:53 - Imbalance in the strength of survivor perks 12:16 - Hooks permanently disappearing after sacrifice/saboing 20:15 - Should they add an option to leave the game when you’re slugged on the ground? 24:26 - Thoughts on MMR/win streaks 39:23 - Devs catering to casual players vs competitive players 43:36 - Is the game survivor or killer sided? 52:05 - Does using filters or reshades give you an advantage? 55:49 - Should the game be balanced around hooks or kills? 1:17:47 - Hypothetical changes to the end game 1:21:13 - Would you rather play survivor or killer without perks? 1:22:35 - Perk discussion: DS buff/Ultimate Weapon change/Distortion/Background Player/Adrenaline nerf 1:33:56 - Gen defense perks/locking strong perks behind a paywall 1:39:18 - Killers are becoming less unique/skill expression is lowering 1:49:36 - What’s a realistic change the devs could make to improve the game?

[@novalution9971]

I love you for this

[@sebk3640]

Legend.

[@thedutywarlord264]

Thank you !!

[@darkskull8938]

Thank you

[@ashley-bd5ik]

@@novalution9971Aw happy to help 😊

[@kkio8258]

I'm feeling old to know the previous the debate analysis was 3 years ago 😂

[@CaptToilet]

I watch Tru3. I agree and disagree with things he says. I watch Otz. I agree and disagree with things he says. I respect both views and love to hear both sides of the argument. Good stuff.

[@Veekron]

Wow

[@Modeus.]

good stuff man

[@MrNorbi001]

What is good about that spanish clown interupting and cutting TrU3 off most of the time? He should visit at least elementary school to learn how to talk with other people. Because so far... he made it look like a comedy. And his persistent crap, in translation, like: "Please don´t fire me from FW program... you made things like colosal imbecils but I´m too much afraid to tell the truth. So there is polite bullshit what, hopefully, will not make you angry". Thats all what this clown did. Polite for any cost. Acting like everything is balanced and like everything is pink. And persistent bootlicking. He is one of the main reasons why DbD is such unbalanced crap. It could have been much much better if devs would listen to actual humans and not to dumb donkeys with serious reading issues.

[@IsleOfHopelessMinds]

Make this a podcast please it’s what the game needs. The devs are actively putting the community against itself by crippling one side forcing them to play toxic creating division. Having a podcast with one rep of both sides killer and survivor will allow everyone to tune in and maybe bring us together again for a damn change. Not to mention that influence has a real impact on game development depending on its scale.

[@CrimsonWolfe776]

Bump this. A podcast with hybrid players would be even better to address the problems with this "US vs. Them" mentality.

[@Cynwale]

Survivor mains don't give a straight f*ck you know, they're literally sociopaths.

[@Arnveld]

You really think, Devs give a single shit about us? They don't, people buy skins, so $ checks. They can spit in your mouth, and you will still play this game and buy skins.

[@acemaverick115]

What if one dude broke in the video call and said "why you two still playing this crap?"

[@Hollow.Midnight]

Haha yeah, they need a third person who quit Dbd some time ago to keep telling them that this 8 year old game is only alive because of the licensed Chapters.

[@Evalora]

@@Hollow.Midnight pretty much, if one wants an actually decent take on dbd's very flawed 4v1 format that isn't run incompetently, lots of people swap to identity v

[@brianshort555]

It's a fun game

[@lmaoyeethaha387]

Holy shit the mad lads actually did it. Thought Choy's idea of them having another debate wouldn't actually ever happen. Glad to see I was wrong

[@Some_Idiot_Online]

hello fellow buck choy enjoyer

[@jakonfire]

Petition to ask for this to be a 30 min episode whenever there's a dev update and what it may or may not do to the state of the game +1 I think if we had multiple voices talking about this as a main pillar of the community the devs would be more inclined to listen full stop.

[@bantartican4926]

Great debate between 2 people who just want the game to be fun, healthy and balanced as for the drop survivor mechanic they could have it where the wiggle regresses but doesn’t drop below 20% or something

[@SonnyJim173]

No, just otz, True is a toxic incel... I'm fr kidding but unfortunately that's a large group of peoples idiotic opinions

[@Skycerer]

@@SonnyJim173 Incel xdddd bro wtf

[@Whobilation]

@virtuevelv Reading comprehension is hard?

[@KittiesRCool]

@virtuevelv Read the whole comment...

[@josetomascamposrobledano4618]

⁠@@Whobilationit’s the internet. Reading comprehension is imposible. Look at the likes even. 5 other people didn’t understand it either, not just 1 guy.

[@stanislas_biliby5182]

The wiggle meter change was to counter the cheesy strat to pick up and drop over and over again to counter DS. It's an outdated change to bandaid a poor design decision.

[@Pers0n97]

"outdated change to bandaid a poor design decision" could describe 90% of DbD.

[@Xili84]

1:02:30 This was the best take of the entire stream. A suffering mechanic and making it team based. As in not 3 hooks for 1 person to die, but an x amount of things to do to make a team lose... Tunneling and camping would be out of the game instantly. Such an easy solution, but it will never happen, cause u know... BHVR has a lot of misplaced pride. Especially cause it comes from Tru3talent they won't do it. And yet it would be the healthiest thing the game would ever have gotten, by a long mile.

[@enjaded7222]

seconded

[@kasiornis6635]

Thing is...the real reason why focusing on kills is so important for killer - is gen efficiency, because if you kill one survivor and hook another, then one more needs to go for unhook and its just one person on a gen. Just killing one survivor slows the genspeed quite heavily. So if this Team Suffering will allow survivors to stay in trial (just to suffer a bit more) - they'll still be able to do gens and just genrush through it before any negatives kick in. At this moment eficient survivors are able to finish 2-3 gens during killers first chase, and then the game is almost over, which alone is a problem on its own. The idea is certainly there, but it will require to rework quite a lot of mechanics, especially "second chances", which will also be a solid "nope" from survivor mains. And devs, who try to appeal to these survivors, won't ever do this. They'll just pretend they did pretty good job and be done with it. And game will remain a broken mess.

[@cali2912]

Are u slow? How would that remove tunnelling lol if u only had to do a certain amount of things to kill the whole team, u would target the shittest survivor and win the game 😂 without even interacting with other people lol, how can you call it a 4v1 with the 4 never interacting with the 1 lmfao 😂 and you’re talking about removing tunnelling when ppl like true preach it’s “skill full” 😂😂😂

[@MrNorbi001]

@@cali2912 Reading comprehension level 3rd world country people.

[@muysli.y1855]

I don't thing its a easy way to implement Why should the dev have something against True3?

[@calebprice7896]

Scott could never. He’s too conceited when it comes to true. Props to the both of you for having a healthy discussion it was fun to listen to.

[@rh4709]

Scott has been GOAT'd, sorry bud

[@CoverJake]

Where does this come from? Just curious, is there beef between the two?

[@Daventry85]

Scott is just a jealous little shit.

[@MarcoSubZero]

@@CoverJake there has been on multiple occassions yeah (between tru3 and scott)

[@novalution9971]

​@@rh4709sounds like you're coping to me

[@FunkyTony91]

I agree it would be a good idea to do it every month for like 30mn. Very entertaining

[@stpablo5299]

that is just a podcast

[@ras8472]

So, one thing that I wanted to point out with Otz made about the kills vs hooks with set up killers having weak starts would skew any kind of data collecting around looking at the number of hooks is that the data should be somewhat consistent with late game then. So like, yeah he's right, Hag and Trapper are examples of set up killers with pretty awful early games. But he didn't think that if the data is measuring hooks per gen, then when you get to says gens 3-5 the data you're looking at should be consistent and should say that yeah these guys are better in late game. Like I don't know, I don't think he really thought out the response to that one. I personally like that, knowing which killers have weaker starts and stronger late games because then on the dev side of things, you know exactly what would need to be fine tuned for them and it further showcases variety. It's no different than how some games show stats for characters and show that this character is strong at this skill, but weaker in this. Again no offense to Otz, I like the dude but he didn't necessarily think his response out too well.

[@JoshuaBennett-kp6fz]

The GOATS

[@GregPiggot]

They should put there energy into a better game honestly. The devs don't even care as much as these two care about the health of the game. They are wasting their time on this trainwreck

[@lily-ry1jk]

its their job to

[@fdhappy6930]

I've seen both play different games on Twitch. The view count is significantly lower, on KZbin the same thing. They've built the biggest part of their community with DbD, it'd be hard to change the main game and keep the income at the same level. Not impossible tho, just hard. And both like the game still, the casual love/hate relationship probably 80% of the DbD community has.

[@KittiesRCool]

The thing is, they aren't good devs. They just got really lucky. DBD without any licenses would not be AS popular. Every single other game they have made has died.

[@drummersnare6276]

*their

[@GregPiggot]

@@drummersnare6276 oh go and do one

[@LazyDev27]

Very mature I wonder where people learn that. Must be a natural result of genuinely wanting to have a give and take conversation with people as equals rather than narcissitically hear yourself speak as I do.

[@thatoneguy5969]

Maybe one way they add more "balance" to the game is to add more random elements. For example, let's imagine they add random weather to maps. Weather being light levels and fog levels like the offerings. Just get rid of the fog offerings like they did the moon offerings. What you then do is make perk effectiveness weather dependent. Let's say certain perks could have their aura reading abilities reduced at dark weather maps, but killers could have theirs enhanced and vice versa. However, in dark maps you might have increased gen repair effectiveness while killers could have slightly longer break animations. Heavy fog maps might reduce healing effectiveness but hide scratch marks more easily. Killers could reach blood lust faster, but hook timers are slowed. I'm just using these as very basic examples, these could be made better. The idea is that you encourage more perk variety by having some perks not work as well in certain weather conditions. That bit of randomness could encourage people to branch out and try different builds

[@metalheadjake3339]

Two of my favourite DBD creators

[@CyPHVEX]

Love watching these 2 dudes! Awesome conversation.

[@luxuriouscheese]

Wow I just rewatched the OG debate like a week ago, this is epic!

[@Iwillcontinuetobehim]

What is the arguement for killers not being able to see hook counters? Like it would help if there are a lot of the same survivors being played, sometimes I do genuinely forget who I've hooked and unintentionally focus someone as a player who just kinda hooks whoever. The arguement that it promotes tunneling is silly cause if someone's going to tunnel then they are going to tunnel, the fact they can see the hook counter isn't going to change anything.

[@namjeff1419]

I cant see how it would help. if a killer wants to tunnel they'll know who to tunnel. if you dont want to tunnel and end up finding the person on death hook, thats really their fault for getting found. it doesn't sound right to literally just ignore them because they are on death hook.

[@muysli.y1855]

Killer player still count which Surv is dead on hook even true3 do this. I think showing would nothing change

[@Riviter19]

Survivors should be able to see each others perks, for the love of god. Also add voice comms for survivor. They need to make the solo queue experience much more similar to the swf experience. Then they can balance around one game power balance

[@matteusslartibartificusthe2561]

Needs a mediator. Otz can't stfu and let Tru3 finish a sentence.

[@magical571]

"the hook should disipate for maybe a minute" I'M SO GALD BHVR DID WHAT TRU3TALENT SUGGESTED AND NOT WHAT OTZ SAID (i love otz but seriously, the dead zone playstyle was just.....why even bother, just open the gates for them at that point unles you have noed....) It's finally coming on the next patch along with Lara Croft, finally! I don't get 4 slug matches often at all, BUT, i would be all for that "shift to bleed out faster" option once everyone is on the ground. it won't solve the situation when a killer doesn't want to give hatch and forces the second to last guy to bleed, but it would fix 4 man slugs, which, if you believe reddit, aparently happens a lot more to others than it happens to me. So why not, give them the option.

[@uzshanka1676]

Saw some comments on twitter how people were angry about this video. Thought it was something terrible. Turns out it just a chill podcast of 2 dbd dads and I loved it. Hope to see more of these in a future!

[@Doncroft1]

Never, ever trust anything on Twitter.

[@youascwub]

A large portion of the community froth at the mouth the moment tru3 is mentioned, always has been. And the majority is baseless lol

[@Doncroft1]

@@youascwub SMH. It's a shame.

[@weew1972]

@@youascwub Cause they weak little man

[@muysli.y1855]

Twitter is dogsht

[@Twilight.Princess]

It’s so annoying as someone that watches both of these guys. When Otz says something it’s almost always considered a level headed take but when True says the SAME EXACT TAKE he’s insulted.

[@nickphaux]

Literally just rewatched the first drbate yesterday and read a ton of comments saying they should do it again. Very glad this is happening

[@iheartz2742]

I started to watch Tru3 after his first debate with Otz, i am so glad to see a part2.

[@Tylendel_]

"otz"! why don't you explain to the audience... Tru- So the wigg... Otz - SO ANYWAY xD Man otz i love ya man but you need to learn not to interrupt people XD

[@roblow3724]

1,000% agree man. I love Otz content but I def feel like this didn’t portray him in the best light

[@Lafret17]

legit ruined this debate. dude can’t stop yapping

[@MrNorbi001]

@@roblow3724 For being unable to act like normal human? Instead of civil discussion he acted like primitive organism from 3rd world country. This spanish clown is one of the reasons why DbD players live in a wolrd where its balanced. His conent is made against low skill level and then constantly claiming "LOOOK WHAT A BALANCED GAME, PLEASE DON´T KICK ME FROM FOGWHISPERER. I WILL BE EVEN MORE POLITE IF YOU WANT." Thats Cockroachdarva in nutshell.

[@LayoDutra]

Suffering mechanic would be so good

[@Random-yg1fi]

Yeah agreed. I wonder if they could make it so that once the killer reaches max suffering then the exit gates are powered and during that time does the killer get to kill/Mori any survivor they down. The killer has already won in this instance. The Mori’s are just for flexing

[@Magicman4124]

Long time watcher and listener of both of you. You guys are like the godfathers of DBD. Obviously shit has happened in the past. What's done is done.. we can't change or alter the past. But seeing tru3 and otz come together and do this is absolutely fantastic for everything. Regardless of how you feel about tru3 or otz.. Dbd.. etc.. these two, specifically, coming together and having this discussion again is nothing but great. Thanks to both Otz and Tru3 for taking the time ,and setting aside whatever differences there may be, to sit down and have this discussion. 👏👏

[@FORTHEMERCY]

The two best DBD content creators meet again AWESOME !

[@grime620]

I love otz but I’ve always thought his game balancing ideas were…interesting. It’s nice seeing someone more realistic like tru3 talk to otz

[@Mightybigfart]

I think True stays more to the raw realistic side of the game while Otz has more creative ideas but goes in to the weeds with them too much sometimes. True was my first streamer watching DBD, he should definitely stay true to himself but i have the feeling that if he'd had a bit more self-mockery while still keeping the serious undertone of his personality and realistic views of the game, he'd be more popular.

[@gagetaylor192]

@@Mightybigfart I prefer him being blunt just the way he is. He's one of the few streamers and content creators in general who feels 100% himself and doesn't bullshit people. It's refreshing.

[@Mightybigfart]

@@gagetaylor192 I certainly can see it from your point of view as well. Let's hope True does get the attention he deserves eventually.

[@paulciamaricone3307]

Otz talks like a politician

[@MrNorbi001]

Yes. Like politician. With broken english and constant fear from potentially insult someone. Spanish idiot. Thats otz in nutshell.

[@muysli.y1855]

I like his view

[@itsnearlv]

tf no he doesnt lmao

[@josetomascamposrobledano4618]

Man. I WISH I COULD BE HYPED FOR THIS! DBD reached new lows for me. Even the Alien last year didn’t reignite the DBD passion that the Hallowed Blight gave me.

[@No1ANTAGON1ST]

The devs don't give a f. Just pumping out licenses and cosmetics ):

[@Doncroft1]

​@@No1ANTAGON1STI like the new content.

[@No1ANTAGON1ST]

@@Doncroft1 I like xeno haha

[@Doncroft1]

@No1ANTAGON1ST Me too. In fact, I've enjoyed every killer released this past year, starting with Singularity.

[@manuserg1082]

This is so hard to watch. I can't even get an actual idea of how Tru3 thinks because he gets 4 words out before Otzdarva interrupts him about EVERYTHING. Otz seriously needs to take a step back when it comes to how he handles debates like this, the goal is not to interrupt the person you're discussing with every chance you get, it's to let each other speak their minds. It's almost like Otz is on adderall and is just looking to talk for the sake of talking. Take a breather, take a step back, let tru3 speak his voice on the topic, and stop interrupting him.

[@razerblaze070]

otz made a comment addressing this you dont need to jump to conclusions.

[@MrNorbi001]

@@razerblaze070 And what? He made a comment about it? Thats all? No apologize for acting like asshole from 3rd world country without any manners? You think its enough? Where is his apologize for being imbecil unable to say truth unlike TrU3? Where is his apologize for making this debate from civil discussion into Otz interupting anyone who is trying to make statement about DbD? Yes. Conclusions. :D

[@PoRco1x]

Otz - you were interrupting him way too much. Makes this impossible to listen to.

[@FrenziedRoach]

You can really see Otz's passion for the game and how much he enjoys talking to (at) somebody who plays as well as he does. He's loving this discussion.

[@RpTheHotrod]

48:57 so otz, what you're saying is if you bring the most powerful, most broken and overpowering killers in the game vs an organized swf squad, on average, you wont win (a mere 2k). Now imagine how it is with the other 95% of the killer roster that aren't top tier.

[@russdaripperwilliams8032]

Good talk but idt that a killer victory should be based off surv making a mistake

[@HugeShep]

love tru3 and otzdarva, tru3 helped me get good at dbd for the first time just through the sheer amount and variety of games he played.

[@burskixpompa2886]

This should be a monthly podcast duo

[@erikstark16]

Having a mediator for this debate would make it even better

[@volk4523]

This, everyone should get 30-45 seconds to talk, the mediator should clarify the question for the other party, and then give the other party 30-45 seconds to address each point.

[@imthedevilkys536]

I use to watch tru play MKX every morning when i worked the night shift.

[@rpsanchez87]

Otz literally proved trues points in his own arguments and doesn’t even know it 😂😂

[@cl4709]

“I don’t like being slugged on the ground” “Ok so you like the old system” “No”

[@Leonardo.ohime.i]

he literally said evey time he agreed with him...

[@odthenrecover]

@@cl4709u didn’t listen to what Otz said

[@muysli.y1855]

Listen more clearly and you understand how otz argue

[@MattMazzagatti]

50:42 This is one of the biggest points I think Otz made "against" tru3 I suppose you can say. Tru3 complains about the survivor sidedness of the game due to efficient swfs but refuses to play at their equal level with Killer (ie. Nurse, Blight, sweat build). Now, we know he does this because his main point is that you shouldn't HAVE to play like that to win, and if you're good you should always be able to with any killer. And he's right, there's a major killer imbalance and its a problem. But, it really feels like tru3 has lost sight of that and is constantly complaining about survivors and chooses to pretend there arent many many killer things that are just as bad. Like he'll throw in a weak comment like "You mean nurse and pain rez" as if they're the only things killer have. Hes gotten so bitter about a valid killer issue that he now lets himself be bitter about and attribute it to survivors as a whole instead. Its really unenjoyable to witness! He even says "sweat killers getting an average of 2k against sweat swfs" is bad. Like what? If both sides are really good AND using every advantage, then 2k is a perfect average. It means that on average one side played less efficient that round and/or one side played very well, or they were evenly matched opponents! I still agree with most of what he says, especially that it should be about hooks and not kills. But he really has just become overall a bit too bitter and misguided with his valid frustrations for my liking. Which is a shame because I bet people would consider his good ideas more often if he wasn't.

[@joshkeller2671]

Love this, watch both of you pretty consistently and it feels like even though you have two very different content you're both experts on the game undoubtedly. Intresting to see a collaboration and im looking forward to watching more of it when I have the time.

[@TheMasterAMB]

Great video, should be a regular thing. 30+ mins of talking about the game, you both have great knowledge

[@Skrillz]

I would agree, but there is no reason in doing this often as the devs clearly don’t listen to peoples feedback unless there is a riot about something on twitter.

[@Vlaax_]

@@Skrillz yeah, there's maybe a few more topics to discuss about and expand on them a little bit, but other than that there wouldn't be anything productive out of it.

[@retsell459]

Ever since Otz has commented about wanting to do this chat again under this one video I wondered if it will happen and boom! Excited to listen to it in its entirety!

[@ryanj1310]

This was a great debate, for kiIIer incentive, maybe add base kit that makes it so fresh hooks add a status affect on the surv for 120-180 seconds that makes their repair speed 8-15% slower?! Would prevent tunnelling with the incentive of having up to 60% slower gen repair speed every 120-180 seconds

[@mansnotprot1544]

Trues points and balance ideas are so painfully obvious and correct that even after all these years is hurts my brain that people dont get it.

[@guala6697]

Just say you're a killer main and be done with it. If you played both anywhere near equally you would not feel this way

[@Xenophontes]

I like watching Otz for gameplay but I like Tru more for talking about the state of the game. I recently quit playing killer and went survivor full time because it is WAY too stressful to be a killer player for all the things tru mentioned. Its just not fun to play that side of the game for me anymore.

[@charlesmcfarlane7236]

Really enjoyed the talk about ranked and mmr still baffles me that on survivor you can get high iri with 0 wins but you need to win on killer and do more to get to iri

[@meleemaster5898]

tru3 didnt get chance to finish a single sentance jeez

[@Dioslux]

Honestly yall should start a podcast or make a channel together or something. Or even a series posted on both ur channels. You both would profit crazy.

[@zacattak4837]

Love that you guys revisited this!

[@AmericanGadfly]

1:53:41 For hatch there should be a 60 second delay from that last death till the harch opens. The survivor can see where the hatch will be for 10 of those seconds, and the killer can see where the last survivor is for thise 10 seconds.

[@paulciamaricone3307]

Otz reminds me of a politician thats giving bs answers and covering the devs. Hes team devs. And dont care what happens as long as hes still there friends. Only time he complains is when it affects him directly

[@jakepark9783]

dats because he’s bhvr lap dog obviously imo🤣💀

[@thatonefoofrumlongbe]

Yeah he seems way too neutral all the time, not really giving you his authentic opinion.

[@glitchard3685]

GREAT discussion. Watched the whole thing. Devs. Take notes. PLEASE. These guys (and all of us) want the game to be fun. We want it to continue to succeed. Take the things talked about in this to heart.

[@Goner21]

You can maybe do this a podacast. Like talk about the new things in the game onece a week and talk about other stuff too. It would be awesome I think

[@Jermaine4000]

Been a huge fan of both of you for years. Keep up the civil and thought-provoking conversations!

[@cold_2477]

I love so much how tru3tal1nt is 100% about logic and REAL worthy statistics. Nothing against otz, cuz I also love his content, but I couldn't agree more with every point tru3 made in this video. Good conversation :)

[@volk4523]

He only says things that are backed by skill of good players, and real world data created by the masses. It is the most logical position to side with Tru3. Anyone aligning with survivor mains is emotional, and a liar.

[@ravelia8601]

1:50:00 True should try that 1v1 comp ladder 💯💯💯 Would be fun to see experiment like that

[@lumingway]

I listened to the entire thing and I don't think it brings any value to any of discussion points about DBD. Maybe it's just me, but it feels like Tru3's opinion were not challenged properly at all and Otz is not actually willing to discuss anything, because every time Tru3 is trying to make a point or bring data into the conversation, Otz deflects it in strange ways. Is Otz obliged by BHVR (as a Fog Whisperer) to not have any extreme opinions about the game? lol

[@takun87]

I think Otz wanted to have a conversation rather than a debate. I wouldn't say Otz deflected when numbers were brought up, he would more than likely want an explanation as to why the numbers are important. So, for instance, why is 2.1 survivors dying per game not "balanced" and why would 3.0 survivors dying be better? Although Otz didn't really do a good job fleshing the conversation out I think he just didn't want to turn this into a debate rather than kind of getting the vibes of current state of the game vs 3 years ago. Personally, I think TrU3 has so pretty good points, but I don't think the data he brings up is relevant when talking about all killers. Otz points this out by saying hooks isn't something that ever killer is even made for. To make a Hag for instance get 3 hooks per gen would make her play more like a chase killer than a trap killer so hooks per gen or even game isn't good for her metric of doing well. Though his idea of changing the way points is calculated with suffering would MUCH better help her out in "winning" than just making her be able to hook people more which is why data with no context is kinda worthless. The main issue is that due to the variance of the game, it's actually impossible to buff weaker killers to make them hook better without either completely changing the way the game is played (extremely hard to do) or buffing killer perks while nerfing survivor perks/gen progession/regression. (this will buff weaker killers but also buff already stronger killers)

[@victorraymond3420]

​@@takun87There are definitely ways. You just need to be creative enough. Saying there's, "variance" is silly. In any competitve game there is variance.

[@lumingway]

My comment was not meant to start a discussion about the state of DBD. I'm saying that I'm disappointed with how Otz delivers his opinions. It felt uncomfortable to listen to a conversation where one person tries to start a topic and the other wiggles out constantly to say nothing or move to another topic. Made me think that perhaps Otz has some deals or relations with the dev team that he doesn't want to jeopardize by being critical about the game.

[@takun87]

I am not trying to start a discussion about the game i was trying to elucidate where Otz was coming from without being a shill for BHVR. I think it only feels that way for you because of the expectation of what their conversation was going to be at. It seems like Otz was trying to avoid an "agree to disagree" scenario because that's not entertaining or informative. @@lumingway

[@takun87]

Yes, but unlike most competitive games, survivors have no variance in playstyle. They can all play the same way were as killers don't. So, let's say for a lot of killers nerfing DS to 1.5 seconds would be much healthier for the game, but for the top tier killers it actually kills the perk for survivors. This is the case for a lot of number-based changes to a lot of perks. Most competitive games are easier to balance. If a move, gun, or other mechanic is too strong typically changing that one value is enough to fix the game. The problem is survivors and killers to a degree don't have intrinsic aspects to fall back on so one meta change is HUGE. Unless BHVR changes the way, the game is actually played at a mechanical level or changing the point of the game, I don't see a "Creative way" of fixing this amount of variance. @@victorraymond3420

[@InvaderShane]

You guys should make this a normal thing. Like every chapter release you two should get together and discuss the state of the game.

[@InvaderShane]

Heres the thing the game is never going to be truly balanced because you have two completely different sides with very different opinions on what "balanced" means. The game has too much randomness, too many variables, too many different elements to account for. Its also hard to balance the game in general because the game was not designed to be this hyper competitive experience. So now ranks, MMR, therea never going to be a clear cut system because what is considered a victory is not only unique for each side but also match to match. I stopped playing DBD a couple years ago, but for a solid 3 years it was something I played almost daily. I thought adding the xenomorph would bring me back but I played 3 matches and wanted to stop. I dont find it fun anymore but I still watch many DBD content creators and you two are my favorites.

[@muysli.y1855]

Agree you can't balance RNG Look at other Games League, CSgo, Valo mirror Match both have same tools and players and no RNG Maps. 1vs4 is hard to balance with random hooks, gens, pallets

[@Evalora]

@@muysli.y1855 identity v cuts a lot of dbd's randomness out (personally i'd prefer if area selection was the norm against random spawns and 'gen' spawns were fixed like 'hooks' but ye), given it's based off dbd it's a very easy comparison to make and for more reasons than just that it's the significantly more skillful game

[@foshizzle9458]

I really enjoyed this , I also enjoyed otz playing devils advocate a lot for the sake of debate. Would be hard to not interrupt someone when it sounds like there is a pause to. Overall great job guys would love more Mabye once a month 👌

[@FutureScopeX]

Killers gaining haste for a few seconds after hookings sounds like a small but useful way to prevent hook camping and benefit leaving to defend more gens which is the intended gameplay for killer. Only needs to last a few seconds, too.

[@bfc_jh]

Tru3 and Otz are the 🐐’s of DBD. Tru3 is the only streamer who I can watch gameplay of and not get bored, and Otz puts so much effort into making insightful guides. Two of the best

[@Kudos_OG]

The counter for FTP+BU is to keep the person with those perks injured. 😂

[@stikmc]

@1:21:28. I play Killer no perks. I’m fine. SOME matches are painful, but I’m fine. I win a little more (or exactly if you don’t round to the nearest full percent) than half. And my kill rate is 56%. I’d NEVER go perkless as Survivor. Even now with my best build, I only escape 40% of the time. This is why I affirm the game is Killer sided. Base kit, every killer base in game options that help them win (camping and tunneling). Survivors can only loop and unless you’re Aryun or a member of Eternal, you’re not looping any killer for 5 gens

[@yautjamorph_]

If u play killer a win 56% of ur games with no perks ur survivors aren't good hate to break it do you, and survivor is only painful when u play solo

[@stikmc]

@@yautjamorph_ So why is someone good who says, "I win a lot of games," but someone else is "bad" because they win. That's a double standard. If my kill rate is at the average for all killers across all my MMR, then I can't be facing scrubs. Also, I play P100 streamers. You can deny the facts, but you can't do that and then claim you face better opponents because anyone else can say the same. I can say Otz only gets 50 game win streaks because he plays bad players. It's a baseless argument made to deny actual facts. If you have facts to support your argument, I'm open to them, but otherwise, you're just denying facts for the sake of your narrative, which isn't rational.

[@yautjamorph_]

@@stikmc listen my guy, if you vehemently have the naive notion that ur good because u win 56% of ur killer games while perkless is a skill issues on the survivor's end, I would love you to go against a 4 manswf with that same optimistic mindset and see how hard u got bodied. No one said ur facing scurbs, you are facing average survivors, otzdarva only gets those streaks because the game isnt balanced and that a vast majority of his survivors are trash simple as that, there is no way someone should be able to play an online game and win 50games without loosing, name a single game when that is possible excluding dbd, I am not saying you or otz are bad players, it is just that the game is not balanced, even otzdarva admits if you go against survivors with the same amount of skill and who are knowledgable a winstreak that high is pratically futile. "f you have facts to support your argument, I'm open to them, but otherwise, you're just denying facts for the sake of your narrative, which isn't rational". I dont have to prove something that is logical

[@yautjamorph_]

@@stikmc if you want me to provide proof it would be better to hop on dc cuz typing isnt my cup of tea i prefer voice debates

[@yautjamorph_]

and the reason why you dont perkless on survivor is properly because you play solo, again it will be eaiser to converse on dc on a voice chat, if you watch winstreaks with any killer you can just see how disoreinted the survivors are, looping by the hook, 15 sec chases, prethrowing shake at 5 gens, hiting second phase first hook. Runing the worst builds known to man. Literally every experienced dbd player saying the same thing I said about winstreaks.

[@lowkeyajin2965]

As far as incentives for going back to save your teammates can give them bonuses for the more people that escape and also count hook stages as suffering so in theory if someone gets their first hook after the exit gates are open and if the survivors leave them and that die on hook then potentially those extra hook stages that to survivor took would cost all the survivors to lose 1:08:06

[@dwaynebronson6229]

I really hope they nerf they combination of for the people and Buckle up not the perks themselves.

[@relaxingheart682]

Regarding your Distortion suggested change. It was backwards so only apples to SWF. The correct implementation would be: Distortion tokens are always shared across survivors. 1 distortion could be 4 tokens. If one survivor brings it that is only 4 tokens shared across all survivors. If 2 survivors bring it that would be 8 tokens shared in total. So the more survivors that bring it the stronger it is( basically the same strength it is now without the issues of killers only going for the same survivors who don't run it, like True said)

[@hawks12thman]

That will never happen as it is completely busted. Your suggestion would mean only 1 survivor needs to bring Distortion, and the ENTIRE team would be protected from Lethal Pursuer’s initial aura read. Right now, if only 1 survivor brings Distortion, the killer still gets 3/4 auras. Same with BBQ. One survivor has 3 tokens? Zero BBQ value for killer.

[@takun87]

I think distortion is actually fine. There is just too much aura reading that killers have without anything for survivors to counterplay that isn't hiding aura. I think giving a 1-2% spill chill effect for 1-5 seconds would be a good way to alert a survivor that their aura has been spotted as base kit might be okay, but it could potentially create further problems.

[@jayjaychuchu]

Yaaaay! I love both trues and otzs content. How awesome to see them interact again :)

[@jphysics]

12:33 Otz "We disagree on...." True's statement about hook permanent disable after death as it is now and that his solution is to remove that mechanic entirely. 12:43 Otz thinks not being able to hook for the whole game is bullshit. Then he says I think there should be counterbalance to make 3v1 easier for survivors. Fine that's fair. But surely you can't say, someone else's solution sucks and yet not offer an alternative especially if you agree that outcome is horrendous right? Tru3 is making a solid easy to understand conclusion affirmative assertion, "Hooks should not permanently disable on death" Otz wiggles on this position by saying nah I disagree and only offers a possible explanation of why that mechanic is in the game but offers no alternative solution. It's like me saying "I think there should be school zones" and someone walks up to me and says "Yeah I disagree, I think I get why there isn't, I think traffic flowing consistently can be pretty important which adding school zones might make more confusing" and then walks off. That guy doesn't address how "well, do you want there to be more car accidents?" They just are allowed to sit on the fence and because there's no solid solution, nothing should really change because you don't feel strongly about it. Considering Otz has played the game for years, coming to a discussion and having no solutions to offer on this obvious an issue and you couldn't come up with a proposal before you came here when Tru3 has advocated for specific changes and gotten flak for it is pretty gross. Someone who says 18:07 "Yeahh I dunno, I don't really think what you're saying is gonna work, yeah I dunno what the solution if you ask me, problematic situations happen only sometimes, why fix something that happens only sometimes." That's a fencesitter who can just hohum and not change anything not to mention how. "Dogshit situations are fine to have in the game because they happen situationally" is a garbage argument. "I know there's a bug that makes you disconnect from the game when you're winning 5% of the time but it's fine as it is because it only happens 5% of the time" is a dumb thing to say. Otz didn't say "I guess I haven't thought about it too much, I'll have to get back to you on I think what might work, even though I don't like your solution". If he wants to stake his reputation on his answers, I will blast him for having a nonanswer where this is such a simple proportionate issue. The only thing that would convince me is that there is data that there's actually an epidemic waiting to be unleashed if killers could hook all 4 survivors on the same hook or as Otz suggests that 3v1 survivors are too prevalent and unwinnable because of this mechanic.

[@Vlaax_]

This was just a convo of two guys who haven't talked in a long time and decided to discuss about things on the spot, with more preparation from both, I'm sure the convo would be more productive, just because Otz doesn't know a solution in that moment, doesn't mean he can't find one, there were multiple times where Otz wanted to talk more in depth about certain things, I'm sure, and the same goes for Tru3, but the ideas get easily lost in the flow of the convo when you have to let the other person speak and also listen to them. It's not that Otz haven't thought about things too much, he's thought of many things and given solutions to the devs directly, yet on many occassions haven't listened. Also regarding this point, it is fine to not be sure about a certain thing that's in the game and not knowing exactly how to fix it in the best way possible, since many changes could have other implications where it would solve one problem, but create one or more problems. It's clear that Otz have thought about these things, yet for some of them it's harder to find solutions, and some of these solutions would have to get tested because you aren't sure if they'd work. You can't say 100% for sure that some ideas would work out before even having it implemented in the game. And while tru3's solution may be better, the argument is pretty much over since all you can do is simply talk about it because even if you find a decent solution, it will either take years to get implemented or it will just get ignored. Many things in this convo could've been expanded way more and explained way better by both sides, but again, while the conversation was nice to listen to, it wasn't very well handled in terms of arguments and how ready both of them were to answer to everything. I think this convo opened a good path for some other future convos on more specific topics, where they can both think more about solutions and their implications. But this part: "Considering Otz has played the game for years, coming to a discussion and having no solutions to offer on this obvious an issue and you couldn't come up with a proposal before you came here when Tru3 has advocated for specific changes and gotten flak for it is pretty gross." I think invalidates Otz's knowledge a lot. As if he was supposed to come prepared with every single solution for every single question out there, despite not knowing for sure what they'll discuss about and how the convo will develop. You can still come up with solutions, yet not be satisfied with them, ending up thinking there is no solution yet to satisfy you, in which case he obviously can't give a proper answer. Also it is not Otz's fault that Tru3 gets slandered for his takes, and just because this happens, Otz shouldn't also get slandered for having nonanswers on the spot. I'm 100% sure if he could dissect this convo and see where his arguments were lacking, he'd do a better job.

[@jphysics]

" It's not that Otz haven't thought about things too much, he's thought of many things and given solutions to the devs directly, yet on many occassions haven't listened. " That's great if Otz has come up with ideas and has come up with at least one thing to try to see what happens but I heard little to none of them in this whole convo. Also whether or not devs listen to Otz does not mean he can't suggest ideas to Tru3. "it is fine to not be sure about a certain thing that's in the game and not knowing exactly how to fix it in the best way possible, since many changes could have other implications where it would solve one problem, but create one or more problems." Every change will have some kind of ripple effect: even Tru3's suggestion would influence 3v1 matches negatively but it comes with Tru3's acknowledgement that could happen but not to a degree where he wouldn't fully put his support for his change, staking his reputation on it. But Otz not putting forth a solution does not move the conversation forward and his criticism of Tru3's solution is weak at best, if I were Otz I would assert more strongly that 3v1 situations are a worse situation to prevent than a killer not being able to hook. Otz with years of experience should at least have some kind of opinion on that. Otherwise how is his answer any different from someone just broaching the subject? I'm not cutting Otz slack for this convo, he's been a big DBD figure for years and if his answers in this conversation are the same as a newcomer to this conversation, that's on him. "As if he was supposed to come prepared with every single solution for every single question out there, despite not knowing for sure what they'll discuss about and how the convo will develop." Gen speeds, DBD designed based on kills has been hot topic for years and Otz has had at least one conversation with Tru3 on it already. I also don't believe he hasn't heard of the hook disappearing issue either and I won't believe Otz doesn't encounter it himself for him to know it to be an issue. Also he doesn't need the perfect solution for everything, he just needs any suggestion that would imply his understanding of the issue. Even if it's a bad suggestion at least there's something to talk about. Otz instead just gives a blanket "yeah it's too complicated, there's nothing to try." if everyone did this approach, noone would fight for any change. I may as well watch anyone other than Otz discuss this issue.

[@AmericanGadfly]

1:10:30 The killer could have a suffering meter too, and if all 4 survivors escape they take a huge hit to their meter and the survivors lose progress on their meter. This would incentivize those big plays. The meter could also be like a tug of war, like its a shared meter that goes back and forth. Just spit balling. Its an interesting idea

[@matthewleistikow6027]

I would genuinely pay money to see Otz, Tru3, and others develop a memo called, "Best suggested changes from content creators." I really want to see this. I want to see them make a list of 10-20 changes that need to happen. The "others" could be anyone they agree to use, but I really think that if they sat together and worked on a list of changes, it would be amazing to see what they think must happen.

[@XenoDeki]

The Dbd devs should take some of the points of discussion here into consideration. We got a player whose been playing since beta and another after beta. Hopefully the Dbd devs watch this so they would get a couple of perspectives from players who have been playing the game from then until now.

[@hitashy4341]

Please make podcasts more often and upload them on Spotify !

[@Reinami66]

1:53:20 simple, you make the killer 115% (regardless of perks/killer) and disable all perks (for both survivor and killer) and the killer power. So its just a raw basekit 115 killer vs a survivor in a realm with maybe a couple of pallets and windows similar to what they had for that halloween event.

[@barneythedino8861]

literally just this, and make 1v1s a game mode with leaderboards in a similar realm. would be amazing

[@paulciamaricone3307]

Otz dont listen fully to what true says. You can clearly see his body languages all hes doing is just ready to talk and he seems like hes ok let me talk and so when trues making a point hes fully not paying attention

[@SimplyTexy]

bring back the old rank system, get rid of hidden mmr or just add a ranked game mode also make it so you can buy any perk for 3k iri shards and make the shrine perks cost 1.5k iri so the game isn't so pay to win and the shrine still has a point.

[@epiccgamingtv]

I think one solution for dying survivors is to have counter for both sides. Regressing Wiggle bar while simultaneously allowing survivors pick themselves at the 2 minute mark. Anti slug counter and preventing any scenario where survivors can’t be picked up.

[@KingsNerdCave]

2 content legends for dbd coming together to discuss the game and hope for it to get better. No fighting, just talking things out and I'm here for it.

[@Mr_Sephiroth_EX]

Numbers says it all, every DbD Tru3 video gets 2k views average, at the moment, this one has 41k views. This should happen more often, love the idea of having this kinda debate every 6 months or maybe every new month chapter. But definitely not more than a year.

[@Ravenlord47111]

can we get this as a monthly podcast?

[@MrDoit187]

6:14 my counterplay to ultra alturistic survivor squads is slugging. survivors are crazy, if they think im gonna pick someone up, when i see 3 flashlights in the lobby.

[@theTOM-A-HAWK]

I think another factor muddying MMR and people’s perceptions of their games is regions. Watching NA creators playing EU (and vice versa) they usually comment on the difference between average pub players. Anecdotally I really feel the difference in my region OCE. I find them so much chiller compared to EU pubs that I watch from creators. Same thing for other multiplayer games like FPSs.

[@ghitaianis9022]

This shows that fog whisperers should play a bigger role then just advertisement for the game. Since they all are deeply connected with the community, much more then what the devs have accomplished so far. If the devs would ask then to have like a group discussion and come up with a representative that would speek directly with the game designer would improve the overall player experience and the longevity of the game.

[@dodang_9147]

They removed the wiggle recovery because it made sabotaging useless. the idea that your slowing killer is not true because survivor is also not on generators. They're also committing to high risk/high reward play where they're very likely to take injures which is inherent game-delay. The intent behind sabo is remove ability to get a hook and force slugging. the issue is that survivor is not at risk of dying to death timers for making this play 1-2 times. Otz does say that you can die by death timer but that is only if it is excessive done like 6+ times. 1-2 times can make you lose the game but you cannot change your gameplan to profit from survivor's gameplay.

[@flutedknight523]

I was one of those people that left when mmr came around, game was never the same ever since.

[@joshuahydon9557]

Tru3 talks so much sense. Im not sure why the devs don't listen to him. He's all about balance and counter play. The devs make the game hard for those above average MMR.

[@Dremire]

Some things of note. The devs 1 v 1 v ect. was a statement I believe they said before SWF where they believed that it was individual win conditions for the survivor to survive. Although I don’t practically like going against some sweaty SWFs, I think the game would have died without it. Anyways, I think they have backed away from that stance drastically. Hooks per gen by itself would not be a viable piece of data. The reason being that that variable will exponentially increase with fewer generators left, which would skew data. Maybe breaking it down to avg hook at gen 1, gen 2. Reason being is killers that setup may throw their first gen or two away in order to set a stage for control. Generally I do believe in trues view of outlier data where it isn’t typical to get 3 spit hooks at 0 gens left and end up with 3 kills during endgame collapse due to survivor altruism. Along that same line, it is hard to get meaningful data from let’s say an 8 hook 0 death pinhead game vs a bubba that gets 2 hooks and 2 deaths. MMR shows bubba being much better, but I think all the players in those two games would perform the former (just example, swap killers if you hate pinhead). The tweet of normalizing killer behavior in order to provide meaningful data for devs at all the MMR levels would be great, but that is a wonderful utopia we will never see. I would enjoy seeing a struggle regression for dropped survivors. You are correct that a sabo hook almost always is just a survivor escaping the chase prolonged. Either you would try to get to another hook, the downed survivor breaks out of your carry and you have to chase them again, you drop the survivor and go for the sabo user which will allow the downed survivor to get healed up, or you sit on the body and they bleed out while gens hopefully get done. If there was a scenario where you left the survivor to start the chase for 15 sec and could go back to a survivor where their struggle was regressed it would add some more viable options.

[@takun87]

Question on this perspective, wouldn't that already be balanced though. In your scenario, you have a survivor who is downed, one in chase, and one healing, so they have 1 gen efficiency. I think the tradeoff for the sabo play is to get heat off of the original target and place it on another (altruism) so it's actually counterplay to the killer if they were to be tunelling out the weaker player, giving the survivors some agency. But in the perspective of the wiggle state reversing, wouldn't that just be destroying the counterplay the survivors have in this instance? It doesn't really give survivors an actual choice in that point it's just a zugzwang for the survivor. You get to get a hit on a survivor AND go back and pick up the survivor to place on a different hook thanks to the wiggle disappearing, so the sabo'd hook wouldn't even really matter at that hook. So, in what since are players getting more viable options rather than the killer kind of being in a win more situation?

[@Dremire]

@@takun87 One thing I need to give some credit to is I certainly am not giving credit for the risk reward of a successful sabo play as it can commonly just end in the helpful survivor getting injured or even downed instead of disabling the hook. When I think of it this way, it should be providing more of a reward then a pallet or flashlight save as the danger is generally much more. The only minor thing I would say about the scenario you listed, as I probably should directly respond to that, is starting a brand new chase does allow the survivor “team” time to rescue before the killer gets a hit. Although the counter to that would be it would require two survivors to set up the hook sabo play. Ultimately I think you raise a fairly good point in that a successful sabo should not just be a temporary stay of execution. In real world scenarios, I don’t think killers actually just drop their prize and stand there until the hook is restored unless they are playing a very strange degree of toxic.

[@takun87]

TLDR: In the short term (or niche situations) the old system does seem better but actually is just a counterplay to a counterplay. Uno reverse cards in regard to skill expression and agency is never a good solution in the long term because it actually disincentivizes the action that causes the counterplay (sabo) Yeah, my example was a bit of an extreme, but what I was trying to get at was that I think that in a situation where the survivor is grounded the reason, I say use the phrase "stay there and wait" is because the killer does not inherently lose any opportunity cost for reaction to a sabo. If a player doesn't heal the survivor while the killer is on hook with the old system, that player is hooked regardless due to the regression. The only way this becomes "balanced" is that if you assume that every time a survivor is sabo'd there is ALWAYS a three-man team in coordination which in your own words already "require two survivors to set up the hook sabo team" because you would need a third survivor to get off a hook to heal the downed one. The only meaningful difference in this play is that in the old system is forces the team to get off the gen because the Killer has incentive to chase the sabo survivor because it's a double play if they down them. Whereas the new system is more of a trade since the down survivor (depending on wiggle progress) is unhookable. I agree with you and TrU3 that this system feels bad, but the other actually disincentivizes plays like sabo and just encourages survivors to say on gens and save before 2nd hook state which encourages a more proxi-camp playstyle being that the drawback is only if another survivor comes rather than the killer making an active choice that has proper opportunity cost.@@Dremire

[@walkermott1750]

This was a good talk but I think Otz does have a bad habit of playing devils advocate for everything that comes up

[@muysli.y1855]

Its nothing to do with devils True3 mostly say balance that and not go deeper otz ask and thinking how in certain situation can be advantage and disadvantage, personal this is how you look at something you would change go every situation and count bring it me more advantage or disadvantage. Oh it bring you 1 advantage but 3 disadvantage why would you change that.

[@mistersnuggles2546]

Reshade helps with the colors. Makes your eyes react faster to things.

[@Goner21]

loved this, it felt like a dbd podcast