Evangelical Worship Needs Church History

[@wham1984]

Gen Z here! Grew up evangelical and during my first week of college I went to an Anglican Church… I was blown away! I have a hard time explaining it, but I felt that everything we did was an act of worship… it was so different than what I was used to… I loved it!

[@noxplay4906]

I love my evangelical brothers and sisters and they do a LOT in terms of community service and spreading the Word to others, but yeah, I prefer traditional Reformed churches that have more ties to the history and traditions of Protestantism. I also do not get the anti-Catholic sentiments. Catholicism is a very beautiful tradition even if I do not fully agree with it, those are still my brothers and sisters in Christ.

[@BibleStudywithVernon]

I’m older, but I can totally relate. I’ve been attending an Anglican Church ever since.

[@SeanusAurelius]

@@noxplay4906 I'm a former Catholic. Yes there's a lot of dumb reflexive anti-Catholic attitudes but the differences are real and really, really matter. If you work your way through the canons of Trent, you'll find yourself anathematised 5 to 10 times (more if you're a Calvinist, less if Arminian). And the stuff taught in the catechism on the Treasury of Merit is just plainly opposed to the Gospel, the mass as a sacrifice is wrong, etc, etc. The old Protestant charges of salvation by works and Mariolatry are far from totally wrong, even if they aren't totally right. Still ove my Catholic family, but not their teachings.

[@derrickcarson]

Ten seconds in and you already deserve a like. "Evangelical worship can sometimes feel kind of shallow... Feels like a concert, and TED talk about Jesus". Soooo true!

[@bethvaughn4231]

I love explaining the Passing of the Peace. I've seen it done well but mostly very poorly. I think even the pastor did/does not understand the history and how it *should* be done. I am an introvert- and I have no problem with Passing the Peace if it is done right. I have a real problem if it is not.

[@ParksLover]

Yep. I've used that exact phrase so many times, and I don't think I got it from Gavin. So much feels so empty and shallow and not rooted in the vast tradition that came before us.

[@donde2k]

Gavin’s opening summary exactly describes the typical service at the church I’ve been attending. It’s why, even after so many months there, I still consider myself “in the market” for a church.

[@Apriluser]

@@derrickcarson or a concert and a lecture (45 min long!). Give me the liturgy and a 15 min homily any day!

[@eddardgreybeard]

Not even his own words, that has been the criticism of Orthodox and Catholic Christians for a very long time now. THAT VERY criticism, "our liturgy isn't biblical, but a concert followed by a Ted talk somehow is."

[@jtbasener8740]

As a member of the younger generation, I have long found the more historical and liturgical tradition just so much richer and more engrossing. The intellectual stimulation and solemn mood of historical worship is not opposed to passion, but harbors it all the more for the sake of true worship. I appreciate your putting this out here as I have come to find that beauty and transcendence is really more of a hunger in the emerging generation than is often acknowledged.

[@geoffjs]

Truth is associated with Goodness & Beauty apparent in uplifting Sacred Liturgy & Music. Guitar & other forms of modern music, which can be at times, appropriate in a church setting, inevitably is not as good as the depth & maturity of ageless practices & rituals

[@mikeydonnie]

Catholic here. The recitation of the Creed fits nicely right after the homily. I was told that the Creed serves as a "check list " to make sure what is said in the homily agrees with the teaching of the historical church

[@CausingLewis]

I like that!

[@mikeydonnie]

@@CausingLewis after the homily, a lector will usually say something to the effect of , "let us now profess our faith " (I don't recall the exact wording but that's close)

[@ryanharvey6375]

Yes! Thank you for sharing!

[@doubtingthomas9117]

That’s the way we do it in my Anglican Church ⛪️ as well.

[@NP-vk8de]

@@mikeydonniethat is the way it should be, but most people are half asleep when this happens making it ineffective. If you are filled with the Spirit it does however become more meaningful. My prayer is that ALL people be filled with the Spirit.

[@matthewstrickland2173]

I love these relatively shorter videos Gavin! They’re very easy to share with friends who happen to have a question or thought on a specific subject such this one. Thanks for all you do, may the Lord bless you and your family!

[@piracy22]

I love that 17 minutes is a “short” video

[@KevinR820]

Agreed. I’ve shared a bunch of your videos Gavin, and folks have apologized for not watching due to the “long form“ format.

[@Giant_Bulldog]

Evangical Worship is objectively good and way better than Liturgical Worship. Liturgies Suck

[@Giant_Bulldog]

Gavin is wrong, liturgical churches need to become more contemporary, not the other way around

[@FedoraMan316]

I appreciate how Mr. Ortlund wants to encourage modern Evangelical churches to infuse historic Christian practices into their worship services. I think a lot of what people are looking for is a feeling of reverence and a feeling of the sacred.

[@geoffjs]

@@NP-vk8de. Ironically, because the liturgy is old, tried & tested brimming over with worship that it appeals to Protestantism which lacks proper liturgical sacrificial worship so not ‘church’ more like synagogue with prayer & teaching with which people are dissatisfied! As another comment says, going to a Protestant service is like reading the menu at a restaurant but not eating! Very well summed up! You don’t know what you’re missing!

[@geoffjs]

@@NP-vk8de. I apologise if I offend, but it is the Truth which you seem to have difficulty with!

[@Giant_Bulldog]

Modern Evangelical churches are objectively good and way better than Liturgical Churches. Liturgical Churches suck

[@geoffjs]

⁠@@Giant_Bulldog. Says you! Evangelical sects don’t have altars nor liturgical sacrificial worship, so not ‘church’, more like synagogue with prayer & teaching!

[@peterfox7663]

Yes, many modern churches lack reverence and a feeling of sacred, but boring repetitive liturgical services just seem like ceremonial religious practices rather than a gathering to worship, learn, and socialize with like-minded individuals. Seems like there should be a way to do these things while maintaining the reverence.

[@Dedézin-coremdeo]

Thank you Gavin for beign used by Jesus , you and redeemed Zoomer made me search more for God and the history of Its church, and now I am closer to Him.

[@CrownOfThornss]

Praise God!

[@Dedézin-coremdeo]

@@CrownOfThornss Amem brother.

[@JoWilliams-ud4eu]

Same

[@Dedézin-coremdeo]

@@JoWilliams-ud4eu Praise God

[@baloneyusmonk]

@@Dedézin-coremdeo I cannot recall exactly how my journey outside of my denomination began, but I can definitely point to people like RZ, Fr Josiah Trenham, Austin at Gospel Simplicity, Trent Horn, and Gavin for helping me better understand these diverse expressions of our Faith.

[@fredtrevino9201]

Ive lately memorized and meditate on the Nicene Creed. Amazing how rich and powerful every word of it becomes.

[@johnrutavičius4580]

The way I solved this problem was I left my Neoevangelical church and joined the Lutheran Church. I became more conservative but less turned-in on myself. I found the historic liturgy freeing, and the Eucharist was comforting. I stopped looking inward, and began looking outward to Christ.

[@Jonathanhdz16]

@@philipmarchalquizar7741that’s not true, he indeed was not perfect, made mistakes but not a madman. It’s sad that the Roman Church made up lies about him.

[@matthew7491]

@@philipmarchalquizar7741 Lutheranism isn't yoked to everything Luther said. There were a lot of other influences. I'm not even Lutheran but even I know it's not some sort of denomination devoted to Luther himself. It's an unfortunate naming, really.

[@allikirman2183]

@@philipmarchalquizar7741 he didn’t mince his words and he wasn’t always balanced, but if your Protestant most of the ways you think about faith or Christianity come directly from his ideas whether you agree with him or not. And if you’re Catholic he was the reason a lot of reforms were made for the better in the Catholic Church.

[@philipmarchalquizar7741]

@@Jonathanhdz16 it was not lies, it's all truth. He wanted to removed 7 books in the bible, also wanted no part of Hebrews or Revelation. Ultimately, 1800s UK so called scholars successfully removed the 7 books. That was a pure class and authority.

[@antoniotodaro4093]

"And joined the Lutheran Church" Awesome, glad to have you with us

[@charlieanderson5952]

Catholic here. Excellent points, Dr. Ortlund.

[@Giant_Bulldog]

He is wrong, liturgical churches need to become more contemporary, not the other way around

[@TESSU-z2d]

​@@Giant_Bulldog dey play.

[@bikesrcool_1958]

Giant bulldog, no churches don’t need to be Ted talks

[@noxplay4906]

@@Giant_Bulldog I respect your view greatly but a lack of connection to the past and to the intellectual traditions of Christianity is turning a lot of young people away from the faith. I think you guys need to go back to your roots a bit. This is merely a humble suggestion from a fellow brother in Christ who is just as flawed as everyone else is.

[@jackross5698]

Glad this conversation is being introduced. For the privileged Catholics who already have this, including myself, its good to have that connection to the first and second century Christians. I would highly encourage Protestants to be open to this idea!

[@baloneyusmonk]

I am absolutely thrilled that you made this reflection, thank you Gavin. This is not a condemnation on the denomination I used to be in, but one of the reasons why I’m joining the Anglican Communion is that historical approach to liturgy, worship and especially the Eucharist. My hope is that this video becomes widespread, and that by God we are bold to share it, especially with pastors and worship leaders.

[@littleboots9800]

For me joining an Anglo Catholic church was in large part because the liturgy just feeds me. It feels nourishing. I also really desire beauty in worship, why shouldn't we devote the best our materials and human craftsmanship to God? The argument for God from beauty while not the most popular philosophical proof for God was the one that resonated with me most when I returned to the church. So I love to see beauty in the liturgy, vestments, the architecture, music, candles, stained glass etc. Also I think liturgy acts as a safeguard to services getting a bit out of hand with innapropriate additions. When I'm listening to the same words, answering with the same responses and making the same gestures as Christians hundreds, even thousands of years ago it really makes me feel united to them. I know we are regardless, but it acts as a powerful reminder.

[@chucktshoes]

As another recent joiner of the Anglican tradition, I have to say that everything the two of y’all have said echoes my experience as well. Though I have to admit that while watching this video, there was a level of bemusement and the thought that Gavin was really just describing an Anglican service.

[@baloneyusmonk]

@@littleboots9800 That is what I told the rector of the church I’ve now been attending, that this form of liturgical worship is nourishing to my soul. I taste and see that the Lord is good.

[@Giant_Bulldog]

I would hate if if my church became liturgical, liturgies are awful and should be discarded

[@baloneyusmonk]

@@Giant_Bulldog “Yeah, well, you know that’s just like your opinion, man.” - Jeffrey Lebowski

[@mitchmclean5435]

This is awesome. I'm a 28 year old from Australia attending a non-denominational church but this year I've started doing Anglican morning prayer each morning and growing increasingly frustrated by the lack of rootedness in my church. Discerning a move to Anglicanism but even many of those churches are insufficiently rooted for me.

[@JohnP3369]

The book that changed my life when I was in a similar position was the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Especially at a time where you’re discerning God’s action in your life, I highly recommend keeping a mind open to places and things you didn’t expect.

[@betweentheditches316]

It is okay to visit other churches to experience the different expressions of our faith. I think it is beautiful to visit Anglican, Catholic, or Orthodox churches during the liturgical season. I hope you find a community with a balanced approach to mission and worship.

[@roses993]

Your relationship with Christ needs to be priority., rituals nor man made traditions will suffice

[@roses993]

​@@JohnP3369catechism doesn't follow 2nd commandment. Thou shall not bow down to images🤡🤡 no, thank you

[@philipmarchalquizar7741]

There is only ONE Church that Christ founded was established along with His sinful Apostles like us. All other churches are man made.

[@JoshuaReifsteck]

I think it’s worth noting that from a traditional perspective (Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran) the Eucharist is not “responsive more than receptive.” It’s exactly the opposite! God comes to us and blesses us in this meal. He sets the table and offers us himself for the forgiveness of our sins. Our participation in the meal is responsive only insofar as we are “proclaiming the Lord’s death until he comes.” The Lord’s Supper is such a beautiful moment of receptiveness.

[@stefanwalicord2512]

Indeed! I suspect Gavin meant "receptive" in the sense of "interactive", as opposed to preaching which is received passively (unless you're led to shout AMEN I guess lol)

[@user-lo9po5mp5u]

The eucharist premise that the actual blood and flesh of Jesus Christ is satanic. How can you believe the priest has the power or right to bring Jesus down on your little platters on demand? Disgusting pseudo cannibalism.

[@Forerunner42]

Recently been feeling dissatisfied with what contemporary worship has become. It was great for a decade or so, but more and more I'm feeling that the Spirit is drawing the church into deeper things. This video has really helped me understand how we can marry the strengths of a low church experience with high church liturgy. The thought of singing deep theological songs like "How Deep the Father's Love" almost brings tears to my eyes. I'm continually praying that God draws us all into what He wants to do in our churches and to be built up into the "fulness of the stature of Christ" (Eph. 4)

[@vickihogan8207]

Protestant here who attended an Anglican Church for the first time. High Anglo-Catholic “service”. Between overuse of incense and overpacked liturgy and rituals I felt all we did was flip pages in the hymnal and Common Book of Prayer and the bulletin. There was way too much packed into an hour. Curious of other’s opinions who have experience in Anglicanism. Is there any hope of finding a church that can be less “high Catholic” but not “High Reformed”.

[@z3rocodes]

@@vickihogan8207 Try and pay attention and soak in the divine mystery. Why would Liturgy follow the patterns of the world, like having a quasi rock concert and TED talk on Sunday?

[@doubtingthomas9117]

@@vickihogan8207 I’ve been Anglican for over 17 years now and the service certainly becomes more meaningful as one experiences it more and becomes actively engaged with it. Of course depending on the parish, the amount of incense may vary 😉

[@Giant_Bulldog]

Contemporary Worship is objectively good and deep and way better than Liturgical Worship, Liturgies suck and should be abandoned

[@joemendez1511]

@@vickihogan8207 Look for Anglican churches in the ACNA. Scriptural, liturgical, and spirit-filled worship. God bless your search.

[@graceinasamosir]

This fleshes out what I have been thinking but could not eloquently articulate 🙏🏽 thank you!

[@zacdredge3859]

My favourite hymn is actually contemporary; Great Are You Lord. There's something immensely poignant about our very breath being a thank offering to God. "It's your breath, in our lungs, so we pour out our praise, we pour out our praise to you only!"

[@Presbapterian]

@zacdredge3859 Wait until the Bridge! Haha.. This one still feels too "modern" for me, but probably it is more of the structure of the writing. I believe Sovereign Grace Music folks address some of these technical issues with many of the modern songs.

[@zacdredge3859]

@@Presbapterian Hey mate. Well I don't really buy into the idea of technical issues being a doctrinal matter but I'm also not at all educated on music in general so I'm not sure I have much to add. Hope that approach is edifying to you and your local Church.

[@Presbapterian]

@zacdredge3859 Just to be clear, I'm not anti the song above either, but similarly to how it's always been even among the more traditional hymns, not all songs provide the same octane of theological depths. One is surely deeper than another, and not all songs are always relevant to be sung by all generations. Many of the old hymns had their own problems, too. On the other hand, there are many contemporary songs that actually provide a great deal of theological depths and should gain more exposures among the Evangelicals. TLDR; This is just me screaming that "Great are You Lord" is not my favorite song 🤣🤣🤣

[@russellmiles2861]

What about To God be the Glory. I don't believe in any god but that is one grand hymn

[@carterthiessen2664]

"I love thee in life, I will love thee in death, And praise thee as long as thou lendest me breath" Every single contemporary song has a beautiful hymn that gives the same message with much more beautiful language

[@RabbitFoodFitness]

Gavin, this is the EXACT reason why I have been so interested in Catholisim and now go to an Anglican church (ACNA) specifically. The worship and preaching at many of the churches I went to in the past were so shallow and people focused rather than God focused. Now I go to an Anglican church full of people who grew up in other church backgrounds and now are anglican (both of pur priests too. They were southern baptists.)

[@keeganmet257]

Your comments on the Lord's Supper are so real!

[@poetrybyivo1299]

yes yes yes! We cannot run from our history in an era that runs away from history more broadly

[@daveharvison7128]

I was never really able to truly worship God until I went beyond Martin Luther to the real Historic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church. There, I found what I was looking for. Jesus Christ be Praised!

[@padraicbrown6718]

Gavin, this is probably the single best video of yours that I've ever seen. It literally excites me to hear you run down that list of 5 things! As a Catholic, I'm just saying yes yes yes! all the way through! And last but not least, especially since most of your following here is English speaking, if you really want to get progressively more liturgical in your worship, please look into the Book of Common Prayer! We as Catholics are now fortunate to have the Book of Divine Worship which brings this great English patrimony into the Church; but within the Protestant context, I don't think you could do better than the BCP! I'll leave it to a good and holy Anglican priest to weigh in on which edition to go with, though. I'm just so excited to find you now on this path towards liturgical worship! Keep at it Gavin! The Holy Spirit is at work in the Protestant churches and he will lead you right.

[@doubtingthomas9117]

I am not an Anglican priest, but I came into traditional Anglicanism by way of one the old Continuing Anglican jurisdictions (the ACC) and therefore cut my teeth on the 1928 BCP. I since became part of an ACNA parish in my hometown and we started using the 2019 BCP when it came out and I think it’s also pretty solid.

[@Giant_Bulldog]

I would hate it if my church became more liturgical. Liturgies suck

[@HIMYMTR]

@@Giant_Bulldog go play with your skateboard somewhere else.

[@doubtingthomas9117]

@@Giant_Bulldog why do you think that?

[@Giant_Bulldog]

@@doubtingthomas9117 I prefer CCM over a liturgy

[@calebcarson3139]

I loved this. As a Gen Z guy really longing for the richness of worship that we have lost in evangelicalism, this video was great. Thanks Gavin, you've been a huge blessing in my life the last year and a half.

[@Giant_Bulldog]

The richness of worship IS in evangelicalism, evangelical worship is objectively much better than liturgical worship by far. Liturgical worship sucks

[@AmandaJohnson-dh3lz]

I appreciate you as a kind knowledgeable Protestant. These are many of the reasons I am joining the Catholic Church and have found such peace there!

[@tarajulian3154]

My husband and I lead worship and we love CityAlight for their theologically rich lyrics and more contemporary sound.

[@derekjames9226]

I like them, too.

[@jimyoung9262]

City Alight is fantastic. We do several of their songs at my church.

[@mrrrksmith]

It’s finally being talked about widely. You’ve managed to capture my thoughts from the last few years in one concise video. I grew up in a church with these formulaic gatherings, totally disconnected from the context of the last 2000 years. It feels like it went straight from the apostles to the church in our small town. It’s so foolish. It’s as if the entire history of Christianity doesn’t matter, and we’re supposed to start from scratch. People are so narrow-minded, and I truly feel sorry for them.

[@fuuzug777]

We have been going to a low house church and when it comes to my turn we have tried to make it as liturgical as possible. Praise God for this video.

[@EndritMullisi]

Thanks Gavin. Listening u everyday since found u 2 weeks ago. Fresh inspiration. This video confirmed that the changes I've introduced in church are in line with what protestants should do. Tonight in bible study at 1 cor 16 we talked about the holy Kiss. Not doing yet, a lot of discussion there. But now we have the Lord's prayer, Apostles creed, reading of Scriptures and Psalm. Doing communion each service. Never heard before about preaching as a sacrament and worship, but feels right. Thanks again. Sharing your channel.

[@christianchavez4086]

Wow, this is incredibly helpful and insightful. I will probably watch this a second time and take notes because I fully intend on putting some of this into practice at our church. Thanks Gavin! Peace be upon you 😉

[@Mercyme57]

Hit the nail right on the head Gavin…very well said and perfect timing as this is a big issue that sits mostly unspoken in the heart of many evangelical and charismatic worshipers.

[@danbrookman8176]

As a cradle Catholic who spent a considerable amount of time as an evangelical, only to return to the Catholic Church, this is exactly why. Evangelical services feel shallow and so disconnected from historical christianity that I never felt like I got anything out of it. Being reconnected to the faith of my Christian ancestors is so rich and rewarding. If Evangelicals don't fix this issue, I think they'll continue to lose followers to the Catholics and Orthodox churches.

[@A-ARonYeager]

​@@Toasterkm99fellow gen z. I left my Protestant church for the Catholic Church. Its been such a great change, the online community isnt what is actually in the Church just sayin. I think so many Gen z want traditional service because everything in our modern culture is shallow and tends to treat history and tradition as bad things to be ashamed of. The tradition and connection to the past is extremely appealing when everything in your life is so shallow. Thats just my take tho

[@jleor5068]

This was one of my favorite videos of yours so far! Incredible unifying advice for worship. We thank God for you Pastor Gavin!

[@Giant_Bulldog]

This was an awful video, it only shows his bias for boomer liturgical worship over the much better contempory worship

[@timmleonard111]

I was confirmed Catholic this spring after being a Protestant for my whole life. I'm so glad I don't have to settle anymore! The lack of liturgy and reverence in many Protestant churches was the catalyst for me looking into the Catholic faith, and once I did I discovered that their views on many doctrinal issues are correct. I've never been closer to Jesus! I hope the Protestant church can figure it out. So many Protestant churches today look absolutely nothing like what even the reformers practiced.

[@pedroguimaraes6094]

You were member of a historical protestant church like Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian or Continental Reformed?

[@Presbapterian]

This depends on which Protestant church one comes from because Protestantism is an umbrella for churches that adhere to the reformational tenets. A similar case can be said for Ecclesialism, where some could argue that some liturgies lack something (Novus Ordo vs. TLM). Or consider the different rites among the Eastern churches, where some would prefer one over another. Is musical instrument acceptable? Some small number of eastern churches would allow while the others reject them. Again, this video is not meant to address such complexities in detail, but to be a reminding voice to some expressions of Protestant churches, specifically the evangelicals.

[@samfranklin659]

@@pedroguimaraes6094 Sadly even some more "historic" denominations like Lutherans or Presbyterians have gone down-hill with their liturgies in the past 30 or 40 years.

[@jasonsomers8224]

My pastor recently started doing a blessing at the end of most services. I love it.

[@joshuareeves5103]

Amen brother. Please keep making content like this. Praying God can start to unify the church more around being rooted in history, respect for different traditions and schools of thought and yet somehow viewing one another and being part of the Church catholic.

[@ajlbeck]

This was such a helpful video Gavin. I heartily agree and was challenged in areas I hadn’t given much thought

[@rjfriske4137]

Just finished your new book Gavin. First book outside of the Bible I’ve read cover to cover in years. Thank you so much for your ministry of educating on historic Protestantism.

[@davionknight521]

Very beautifully said! 🤍 God bless you always Dr. Gavin and your family.

[@Pelinca]

This video is so needed for today’s evangelicals!!!

[@JoWilliams-ud4eu]

These suggestions are how I wish worship was in my church.

[@Apriluser]

There are churches out there that have wonderful liturgies, excellent music. You may want to visit one once in a while and just see what you’re missing. I usually think of it like “I can eat at McDonald’s or I can eat at the fine dining restaurant down the street from me“. I like McDonald’s once in a while, but I much rather have a wonderful and nutritious meal at the fine dining restaurant. Blessings.

[@geoffjs]

@@ApriluserTry the CC & Orthodox liturgy

[@ninjason57]

I've been thinking and researching a lot about this recently! I grew up in a Baptist church and currently attend one that has dropped it's Baptist name to become more non-denomination evangelical (whatever you want to call it). I was also feeling a sense of spiritual emptiness in church services. I decided to visit an Eastern orthodox church near me (Antiochian background). I had heard of other Christians visit EO liturgies and describing it as a transformative spiritual experience, many of them converting to orthodoxy. I very much prayed to God to open my heart to this experience. It felt both formal and informal at the same time. Formality in the priestly rituals but informal in that everyone is at the liturgy together, parents, children, grandchildren. So mothers with their crying babies would have to excuse themselves, kids were fidgety but being shushed, the congregation was overflowing the seats so whole families would sit in a circle against the back wall. This is very much different to the evangelical style church where children are separated to their own rooms from the "main service" for adults. Chants were sung. The priests would do a direct reading of scripture both old and new testament. They had a section dedication to remembrance of saints. Telling stories of "giants in the faith" for our encouragement. The eucharist was definitely the climax, people bowed to the eucharist which was shocking to me but makes sense logically. If the bread and wine are the actual body and blood of our Lord then bowing is necessary. Some practices that gave me pause were the veneration of icons, primarily bowing their head in a nodding fashion and kissing their fingers then touching the edge of the canvas, as well as the priest walking around the room holding I believe the scriptures in hand while the congregation flocked to him to touch his robes. In the end I found that the EO liturgy and American evangelical worship services were at their baseline more common than I anticipated. Although the American evangelical churches have definitely lost the reverence of the eucharist and connection to church history.

[@rexlion4510]

As a former cradle Catholic, I would like to extend a caution against the Orthodox practice of bowing to the Eucharist and the Roman Catholic practice of worshiping the Eucharist. The issue of the real presence in the Eucharist is not the issue; the issue is the concurrent presence of a man-made object or image. God forbids the directing of worship (bowing is an act of worship btw) toward any graven image. Exo 20:4,5 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them..." Is the _image_ of bread a 'graven' (man-made) image? Yes, it is. May we render worship toward graven images? No, it is forbidden. Lev 26:1 "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God." Is the host in the Catholic monstrance a 'standing image' set up for them to kneel and worship toward it as their god? Yes, it is. The Israelites created a calf of gold, declared it to be Almighty God, and worshiped it. As punishment, Moses had the calf ground up and made the people ingest the gold. The Roman Catholics create wafers of bread, declare them to be Almighty God, raise them up in monstrances and worship them. Then they ingest them. See the similarity? Whether God is really present is beside the point. God forbids us from rendering worship toward a man-made image, whether it be made of shaped gold, or of fired clay, or of cast brass, or of carved wood, or of baked flour dough. Plenty of protestant/reformed Christians believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist (although not a corporal presence, it's Spiritual and Sacramental), and they do not adore the Eucharist because they know it would be idolatrous. I am in one such congregation, an ACNA Anglican parish.

[@dankmartin6510]

@@rexlion4510 The Eucharist and the Icons are not Graven images so please do not defame them with your incorrect understanding and application of scripture, thanks.

[@rexlion4510]

@@dankmartin6510 Graven images are objects or images created by humans for the purpose of directing worship toward them. That little white thing you see, that's been consecrated by your priest? That is an object created by humans, and you direct worship toward it. It perfectly fits the definition. The CCC says explicitly that Catholics worship the Eucharist, and one component of the Eucharist is the visible image of a bread wafer. When Jesus gave the bread and the wine, what did He say to the Apostles? Did He say, 'do this as an act of worship toward what you are ingesting'? Did He say, 'do this to receive grace'? Did He say, 'do this to have your venial sins forgiven'? No! Jesus said, "Do this in remembrance of Me."

[@dankmartin6510]

@@rexlion4510 You are too young and too week in discernment to make any of the claims that you while also hoping they are taken seriously. Graven Images are images or idols that are supposed to have a god or spirit living inside them for service and worship - icons and the Eucharist have nothing in common with a graven images. The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ - there is no idolatry or violation of Exodus or your made up doctrine within it, and that is the absolute end of it.

[@rexlion4510]

@@dankmartin6510 You wrote your opinion that I am wrong, you offered no concrete evidence for your position, and then you said , "and that is the absolute end of it." 😂🤣 Maybe it is the absolute end for someone like you who refuses to hear reason and Scripture. 😜 You also err in assuming that I am "too young" to make any claims. I am at retirement age; I've read the entire Bible twice, and many portions hundreds of times. I've graduated from a Bible college. How old are you, sonny? 😆 What are your qualifications to make claims about Scripture? 😁 You wrote: "Graven Images are images or idols that are supposed to have a god or spirit living inside them for service and worship." That's your interpretation. Where is your authoritative source to back up this claim? Actually it doesn't matter whether the graven image "is supposed to have a god living inside" or whether it is supposed to _be God in the flesh,_ it is still a graven image and we are forbidden to render worship toward that image. You cannot deny that the little white wafers are such an image, because everyone knows you can see them and everyone knows they were stamped out in some bakery by human beings (with automated machinery, no doubt). You just can't handle the truth, and you're in denial. So go ahead, put your fingers in your ears and shut your eyes tight and yell "La la la la la" in an attempt to drown out the truth, but the truth will still be there: Roman Catholic Eucharistic practices are idolatrous. Of course, not all Catholics hold to the nonsense their church teaches. A survey showed that 60% of US Catholics now have a memorialist view of their Communion. Their wisdom is commendable. They don't buy the lie of Magisterial infallibility; they can admit that "the emperor has no clothes."

[@viktorvalentini7184]

Gavin thank you so so so much for this, this was so inspiring and much needed. Thank you, may God bless you.

[@petervlaming9507]

I think Gavin has been reading my journal

[@godslittleman5451]

Gavin you have the gift of evangelism, you are an evangelist. Great video, especially the part about making communion the highlight of the service. How can we do that? All the other stuff is good too.

[@majacobs]

As someone who has been deeply involved in reformed churches/community for many years, I do agree that liturgy and theologically rich songs are needed and something I prefer in a worship service. However, I have heard the criticism of "shallow" evangelical churches so many times in so many mouths that I have become extremely concerned about the heart posture of reformed believers. I hear what you're saying about not trying to be a snob, and I fully believe you. Yet generally speaking, this mindset of "we must be different and better than those people who have rock concert worship" has created a culture of pride and elitism. And as much as I want a theologically rich worship service, if I had to choose between a church that was humble and church that was elitist, I will choose the one that is humble regardless of what their worship is like.

[@survivordave]

I couldn't agree more. High church liturgies are intimidating enough to evangelicals without the elitism of some of their proponents repelling us even more.

[@fredtrevino9201]

Way way on point. Evangelicals are starving for just what you said. Thank you for speaking it.

[@timothymcdonald7407]

What evangelical worship needs is, respect and reverence of God, for starters.

[@erinkellyherner]

I’ve been charismatic a while, but over the past year, my interest in liturgy has grown, and also learning more about the Catholic and Orthodox traditions. The thing that I noticed about the Orthodox Divine Liturgy was that there was almost no human personality in it- there was a homily, but it was very short. So the idea of the service being a sacrifice we offer to God is new to me. Also, I recently got a couple of the Every Moment Holy books of liturgies and an Orthodox prayer book.

[@carsonthorell3509]

If you get a chance, look into other historical churches like Lutheranism, presbyterian, or Anglican. And visit! visiting these older confessional churches are wonderful.

[@dougy6237]

@@carsonthorell3509 Historical churches? They are not churches for starters; they are groups called communions. Secondly they are not "historical" having began 1500 years after the apostles. Peace be with your spirit.

[@mervynsykes3482]

I totally agree with the Lords Prayer,being said,as a child my mother knelt and prayed it every night at bed time ,recently we were at the death bed of my Mother in law,a lot of family were there (almost all were nt even church goers at all)I requested we say the Lords prayer,and all I mean all participated,!!

[@fighterxaos1]

Fully agree. I want a more historical, liturgical worship service but I'm still protestant and I think too many protestants want to "throw out the baby with the bath water" by ignoring too many things that some would say are "too Catholic". I hear that now and I roll my eyes "too Catholic" where did we Protestants come from then?

[@SeanusAurelius]

Exactly, since when was the objective to become as different to Catholicism as possible? The aim is to inculcate faith; the rest is a discussion about the means.

[@fighterxaos1]

@@SeanusAurelius Yes!

[@VarynDEE33t]

One of my favorite videos of yours. I’ve lately been feeling a desire to bring more reverence and richness to my own church worship services. I think we’re already on the way there, but this motivates me to do what I can as a worship band member to help in whatever way I can.

[@geoffjs]

Without altars & no liturgical sacrificial worship, Protestantism generally, doesn’t have proper worship, so not “church”, but, truthfully, more like synagogue with prayer & teaching!

[@ThePennantJournal]

Hey, thanks for this. Recently, I've gotten the urge to incorporate the Lord's Prayer into devotional time with the Lord. Initially, I thought, "Boy, this seems kinda old, and somewhat foreign", but I was encouraged and even edified knowing that this is exactly what the Lord Jesus said, and how many disciples world over pray. I am encouraged to push past the initial awardness of incorporating liturgy in personal prayer, but I am excited to run with it!

[@taranlarousa3082]

You absolutely hit the nail on the head. I will definitely be bringing these ideas to my pastor and worship pastor haha

[@joansmith5859]

I go to an evangelical church and I was feeling exactly the same way about no depth to the service that I started to investigate catholic theology because there is depth and substance.

[@Yj-Fj]

I’m a musician at heart. I see the easy going child like songs of most contemporary non-denominational churches as when children are full of life and like to sing easy repeatable songs with words that sound cute or tickles the ears. Then I see youth like songs where there is emphasis on fighting or being joyous and growth and having fun in His presence. Then I hear more adult themes of suffering, patience and endurance, and faith, and finally I hear senior songs of contemplating the end of life, the recounting of past experiences, the beauty, the glory, the wonder and the majesty of His everlasting grace.

[@Presbapterian]

"Liturgy can be done in ways that feel organic and authentic..." Loved this.

[@truthnotlies]

By whose standard? What makes it organic or authentic?

[@talexanderbirch8186]

I love this. I have been in evangelical circles my whole life, and have come to crave more rooted liturgy more and more. I'd love to know your thoughts on what a general lay-person who has no real influence with the leadership of their church can do to bring some of this into their worship. Maybe a follow up video? Although, I know your schedule is packed. May the Peace of Christ be with you!

[@not_milk]

I've tried with my church. I think the only thing that will make current evangelical church leadership come to an awareness of this need is when the mass exodus of younger generations toward more traditional churches becomes impossible to ignore.

[@Joostin8]

Love that message at the end about “leaders meeting healthy needs.”

[@AnthonyBruns]

Great video. I think your point about what kind of worship music we use really speaks to a larger problem with the evangelical mindset. We shouldn’t shy away from emotions, they aren’t bad, but we shouldn’t make them the focus either. The health and richness of our spiritual lives is not measured by how we feel.

[@toddthacker8258]

I think it partially is. I grew up in a very theologically-correct worship environment. Plenty of hymns. I feel much closer to God during worship at my current church--even had a vision for the first time in my life--and that's immeasurably helped my walk with Him.

[@PapaDuds]

I enjoyed the video. I’d be interested in a video about how instrumental music is viewed throughout church history and how that should impact our worship today.

[@TheologiaEvangelica]

Hi Dr Ortlund. Please do a study of the development of Penance as a sacrament, from a once in a lifetime '2nd Baptism' to the regular sacramental instrument of forgiveness. Thanks

[@charlesjoyce982]

Sneaky request. I like it.

[@Pacemasterx]

Really great video, brother. And I recommend that video on the intercession of our Lord!

[@gregory_bloomfield]

This was great, Pastor Gavin. I totally agree with you.

[@NickTarterOKC]

As a Particular Baptist with Puritan roots, I have found the Book of Common Prayer 1662 and more recently 2019 to be extremely meaningful and helpful. The BCP is steeped in reformed theology, is extremely biblical, and historically rooted in a healthy way. It's the best reformed worship guide and prayer book that I am aware of. We use it regularly in our worship services at my church to help shape our environment and it certainly adds something. It does not take away from the ministry of the Holy Spirit or spontaneity. If anything, it gives the Spirit more license to move freely as our hearts are better prepared and ordered to engage the Lord.

[@bloopboop9320]

Having worked on worship teams before and been to a number of non-denominational churches, I can say that hymns and tradition actually usually gets a really strong response from the audience. For instance, there is a decibel detector to make sure the room is at a consistent volume during worship, and when hymns start being played the volume of the entire worship team actually has to be lowered because the audience sings more loudly. I know some people don't like hymns, but from all the churches I've been to this has been a consistent trait that the congregation actually interacts more with the lyrics of a song when it is a hymn and sings more loudly. I think part of the reason for this is because modern worship songs are designed more for people who are already quite skilled or knowledgeable in singing, which most men aren't. This means that modern worship songs are a lot more fun for worship teams to sing and to play because you can actually show off your talents and skills, but for the general congregation (or men who are new to a church) it becomes a very large hurdle and raises the "skill ceiling" of being able to sing comfortably. That long sustained high note that the worship leader just sang probably isn't going to be sung by 99% of the men in the audience. Hymns, by design, are meant to be sung by the vast majority of the congregation, including men who can't sing very well. This becomes a question of what the purpose of a worship team is: Is it their goal to do their best and show off the best of their abilities for God, or is it to actually intentionally be restrained so the vast majority of the congregation can be in alignment? If most non-denominational churches had 50% of their songs as hymns, I do not think most people would complain. I think most people would be fine and happy.

[@geoffjs]

Without altars & no liturgical sacrificial worship, Protestantism generally, doesn’t have proper worship, so not “church”, but, truthfully, more like synagogue with prayer & teaching!

[@thestraightroad305]

Well said. It is like the difference between being in a dance (remember country dances?) and watching a ballet. Participation, not performance. Worship teams love to “introduce new songs” frequently, which leave a congregation nearly mute. We’re all just standing there watching the worship team have a great time performing and enjoying themselves.

[@bloopboop9320]

@@geoffjs Most Protestant churches have altars. I think you are thinking of Non-denom churches?

[@bloopboop9320]

​@@thestraightroad305 Yeah, that's how I feel about it. The other thing, which I didn't bring up, is that because women are the largest buyer of Christian music (single women more-so, I do believe) there has been a big shift in making songs that are easier for women to sing and has even made songs a bit more... er... homo-erotic at times? There's been a good number of Christian songs I've heard, where even with my knowledge of Biblical terminology and phrasing I was thinking "This is very gay." It makes me very uncomfortable and that's as someone who has been going to church since I was a born, so I can't imagine how it feels to someone who is a new Christian.

[@thestraightroad305]

@@bloopboop9320 Yes. I regret that many new Christians may form their theology on these songs.

[@Broskoska]

My evangelical church (see you in a month Gavin 😉) has recently been heading towards corporate prayer, liturgy, and studying and reciting the Nicene Creed. It’s been very refreshing to feel like my church isn’t afraid of attaching itself to historicity. Hopefully it is a trend that continues in my church and others

[@vinyltherapy9410]

As a protestant im beginning to think orthodoxy is the answer to all these areas where we are lacking.

[@Presbapterian]

Reformed orthodoxy, that is ;)

[@justsomeplantwithinterneta7391]

I might suggest looking at some conservative protestant denominations as well. The CREC and LCMS come to mind. Most have historical standards for worship or otherwise follow the regulative principle.

[@z3rocodes]

Absolutely. Former Baptist now Eastern Orthodox. I found all the Baptist churches I attended to be superficial and lacking depth whereas in Orthodoxy every single thing has a purpose. The Divine Liturgy is so beautiful. I thank God every day for bringing me to Orthodoxy. Even the study Bibles are vastly different, compare the Orthodox Study Bible to Protestant varieties and you'll see how hollow Protestant theology is.

[@xaviercopeland2789]

@@z3rocodesI mean, it depends the Bible. Translations like the NET have the best translator notes of any English translation, the ESV has copious amounts of great notes, etc. Plus, there are great Protestant traditions if you want more traditional services and all.

[@bjornlarsen7440]

Go visit a parish brother I am also on the same journey, may the Grace of God guide you and bless you

[@janbasdegroot2186]

When I go to a more evangelical (as in not mainline Protestant, but evangelical) Church with friends, there often is a moment of greating each other. I never understood the meaning behind and like explained in the video, it just seemed like a weird, random and unnecessary element to me. Great to hear the Biblical and historic reason behind it. I will be more conscious about Gods beautiful grace that allows Christians to take part in giving His grace to other people the next time I’ll experience that. Thanks for the explanation!

[@bennywaters5736]

I agree. As a pastor in a baptist church in Australia, I have added the call to worship and benediction to my regular services. It to me adds depth and is important way to end the service that is theologically grounded...not just a comment 'please join us for morning tea etc...

[@russellmiles2861]

I'm from Australia... What are your thoughts about the Australia Church and Life Survey 2018 that found that 1 in 4 parishioners responded that they believe in a person God, 3/4 said they felt Jesus a mythical story and 1/5th church folk don't believe in God at all. What would be the breakdown in your parish?

[@charlesjoyce982]

How can you consider yourself a Pastor if you did not receive your appointment from a bishop who has apostolic sucession?

[@captainnoobface1124]

​@charlesjoyce982 using the bible prove that it is necessary. You're starting from a false premise

[@charlesjoyce982]

@@captainnoobface1124 there are several bible passages that show how the apostles passed on authority. Paul said he appointed presbyters in every church (acts 14:23) -- "priest" is a shortened form of the word "presbyter". Paul also gives Timothy guidelines for appointing bishops (1 Tim 3). It was an integral part of Paul's mission to see that valid leadership was given to all of the churches. We know from the writings of early Church leaders that the other apostles also appointed men to the bishopric to succeed them. Clement of Rome writes in his first epistle about how the apostles knew that there would be strife regarding the leadership of the Church and that they were therefor careful to select successors. The early church fathers all stressed the importance of maintaining apostolic succession.

[@captainnoobface1124]

​@@charlesjoyce982​I appreciate the engagement. 1st point the verses you provided are about creating local overseers/priests/Elders I'm simply not seeing this "passing on authority". Also can't help but see you immediately had to go to the church fathers. Not saying that's bad but to pretend this topic is entirely biblically based when it appears the crux is church history is a bit of a stretch.

[@ninomaltese1661]

I appreciated this video. I try in my church to employ ritual. Part of this ritual is to be still and wait that the Holy Spirit will manifest His charisma.

[@AdamFontenet-g3f]

Yeah you got that from the NAR movement.

[@jty1999]

Our Baptist church recites a doxology and a benediction at the end of the service. It’s a great way to end Sunday worship. Like you said, we don’t focus on the age of the songs we sing so much as we focus on the theological richness of them. So we have a good mix of old hymns and some newer songs, but all of them are carefully curated.

[@loicrutabana1884]

Nice video man

[@Yaas_ok123]

Just got your new book in Finland, good job !

[@janeann3331]

I enjoy hearing very old hymns played in a modern fashion. I am reminded that Christian sang the very songs before me. I am not from the US, so I have an eclectic music taste. I love fusions that include different cultures. It reminds me of how connected we are.

[@billmartin3561]

Excellent video! Jimmy Akin recently did a video where he talks about different parts of the Catholic liturgy and how it is designed to proclaim the gospel throughout the mass. That way, if a homily isn’t clearly speaking about the gospel, you are at least getting the gospel through the liturgy itself. The creed is critical, it is a self affirmation of the gospel, and when done in communion with the rest of the church is very powerful.

[@vercingetorix5708]

Still feel like priests need more training on homilies. They need to explain what EACH of the readings mean for us.

[@SilentEcho4178]

Amen. I go to a contemporary PCA church and we do what you mentioned early on - we put catechism questions and quotes by Reformed pastors/theologians up before the service, and we have creedal statements and common prayers mixed throughout service, often between songs or right before the sermon. We also end with a benediction.

[@mikepeters8493]

This message is 100% spot on

[@wejpasadena1]

Call to worship is great. I remember when it was a passage if scripture. Niw its a guy in jeans and a tshirt yelling “Good morning everybody! Lets c’mon snd tell Jesus how mych we love him!!!” Its as sacred as a bartender announcing the start of happy hour.

[@quarantinegames5502]

Thank you Dr. O! We are definitly hungry I've felt this way for so long!!! I've been in Baptist Chuches for a long time and that "depth and substance" in worship is something that I long for. I most appreciate the music at my parents Methodist church My favorite song we ever do at MY church is the doxology at the end 😅

[@bethl]

I grew up singing the Doxology every week. I still love it.

[@quarantinegames5502]

@@bethl Me too!

[@geoffjs]

Try the CC or Orthodox for the ‘real thing’ proper worship!

[@quarantinegames5502]

@@geoffjs what do you mean

[@geoffjs]

@@quarantinegames5502 if you want to experience proper, reverent liturgical & sacrificial worship, try the Catholic or Orthodox Churches. Most Protestant sects don’t understand proper worship so not “church”, more like synagogue with prayer & teaching! The doxology is not a song but a chant during the Holy Mass, read up on it!

[@Athanasius242]

Your presbyterian roots are evident in this video. I was in a PCA church plant here in The Bahamas (we merged with an EPC church) and the most rich part of the service was public and silent Confession and the pardon of sin which followed with a prayer for the nation. Very beautiful segment of the liturgy.

[@Athanasius242]

We also began with a call to worship which includes a profession of faith, which would either be an ancient creed or a passage of scripture depending on the theme of the sermon.

[@iamkennymartin]

As a worship leader, I definitely agree. I’m in a more charismatic non-denominational church, but I try to bring in readings from the Valley of Vision for the call to worship, modern versions of hymns, etc wherever I can. We have multiple leaders with different styles, and the deeper, more rooted theology lane is the one I want to be my distinctive. Same with when I preach in our community. I was raised in the Presbyterian church, and much of that still leaks out. It’s interesting to see the difference in perspective of those who have only been in our current church or ones like it. Some very shallow practices and language learned from that particular subculture.

[@Apriluser]

Worship leaders are priests and pastors, not musicians. Are you speaking as a pastor or a musician?

[@iamkennymartin]

@@Apriluser both. I am a musician, yes, but I also lead and determine the ‘liturgy’ of the service. And preach from time to time as well.

[@allikirman2183]

Valley of the vision is awesome! Currently working through it right now.

[@JeffThornhill-x3e]

You have said what I've been thinking for a long time. American Evangelicalism is becoming more shallow, and disregard church history and some of the practices.

[@benmeitzen4184]

Love this video Gavin! I think an unfortunate consequence of the seeker-friendly church movement that really took off in the late 1900’s is a rejection of rich historic liturgy and creeds. Even though most of these churches to adhere to the teaching and theology in the creeds, there are few contemporary evangelical churches reciting them.

[@taylore22]

I love the metaphor at the end! This was clear and edifying.

[@nicklausbrain]

I am a Methodist in Estonia. We do all that!

[@roses993]

I love the traditional methodist denom!!!

[@antonella.mariee]

great video Gavin!

[@aaronblumer5742]

So encouraging! Thanks!

[@RogerBesst]

I am an evangelical Christian, but evangelical worship is so shallow, so I found home in the Anglican Church - Old Testament, Psalm, Epistle, Gospel readings, sermon, confession of sin, to be ready for Holy Communion. Very satisfying, lasting experience. This is the historical faith.

[@oadefisayo]

"Make all the introverts squirm"😀 I do admit to hating that part of the service. But I appreciate the historical context

[@val94-v2]

Thanks for this video. We have the same issue in France with those cringeworthy churches. I hope many evangelical pastors will watch this. We need the evangelical movement to become more intellectual and traditional. Special thanks to Redeemed Zoomer for making me aware of this subject.

[@bonisamuel1]

I am from an evangelical church in Brasil, and I agree completely, we are a low church and have a liturgy with weekly communion. The liturgy really helps me to come closer to God, it can also guide and prepare us to the moment of the Lord's Supper.

[@matheuslopes4258]

boa! qual tua igreja?

[@bonisamuel1]

@@matheuslopes4258 Igreja Esperança, fica em Belo Horizonte MG

[@geoffjs]

Without altars & no liturgical sacrificial worship, Protestantism generally, doesn’t have proper worship, so not “church”, but, truthfully, more like synagogue with prayer & teaching!

[@bonisamuel1]

@@geoffjs I had no Idea I was not attending a true church! Thanks for making that clear for me, I will now BEGONE (Catholic or Orthodox, because both a the one true church)...

[@guzlemuzle]

these are all the reason i became catholic this easter! than you for confirming my decision!

[@codynunez5246]

Brutal but true opening statement!

[@PastorCorbin]

Such a helpful video!

[@SamuelLee-gw6wr]

My church has communion every week, and it is a distinct part lasting a full hour. Praise was so outpouring then. Wow. There was one instance that people didn't even know that a typhoon (T8 signal) was coming. It took until someone said , "For the safety of everyone, we must end now. May God bless you with a safe trip home." for it to stop.

[@LeadingWorshipWell]

Loved this video, Gavin! For those who are interested in incorporating more liturgical elements into your service, I highly recommend the book Christ-Centered Worship by Bryan Chapell. He does a great job of outlining the history of liturgical thought from the Catholic service to Luther's service to Calvin's service to the Westminster divine's service to the modern day. He makes a very compelling case that the shape of the Gospel has informed the liturgical structure of church services throughout history (And it's not a distinctly Catholic concept to have a Call to worship, confession of sin, assurance of pardon, etc.). He ends the book by providing examples of how to incorporate these liturgical elements into modern worship services. Also, I recommend checking out Hughes Oliphant Old's book Worship: Reformed According To Scripture if you would like a historical discussion of each element of a worship service (music, preaching, baptism, communion, etc.).

[@dougy6237]

I recommend you go to the site Catholic Answers. Pax

[@purelightapologetics4930]

YES! Thank you so much for saying this! I grew up in Nondenominational and Bible churches and ended up hopping through all the “low church“ denominations because I was so frustrated with the way they handled scripture (you’d be surprised how much heresy, taking scripture out of context, and other forms of scripture-abuse I’ve seen), the theology shallow (and not uncommon incorrect) songs that they limited us to, and the lack of prayer. I’ve landed in the Anglican Church (without being Anglican) because at least they won’t gyp me of scripture, prayer, or theologically sound teaching. I never heard that listening to preaching was supposed to be an act of worship or that it was supposed to be God speaking. I don’t think a lot of those pastors have heard it either or maybe they’d be more careful. I started falling asleep during sermons as a way to avoid boiling with anger over the awful stuff said from the pulpit. I’ve come to such a low view of preaching due to my experiences that I prefer the Anglican Liturgy because the preaching isn’t the only place you hear any of the Bible, so I don’t have to rely on the clergy doing anything properly to worship God. I’m so tired of being blown around by the whims of men. 😢

[@alecfoster448]

Thanks for bringing this up Gavin. Sometimes when I bring this up to friends they get defensive and say something to the tune of “it doesn’t matter how we worship so long as our focus is correct” which I now believe is a somewhat incoherent thing to say given that what we do shapes our focus/thinking/attention.

[@geoffjs]

Without altars & no liturgical sacrificial worship, Protestantism generally, doesn’t have proper worship, so not “church”, but, truthfully, more like synagogue with prayer & teaching!

[@alecfoster448]

@@geoffjs Agreed.

[@SeanusAurelius]

@@geoffjs How's worship defined biblically, friend?

[@geoffjs]

@@SeanusAurelius The First Lord’s Supper The evening before he was crucified, Jesus and the apostles shared a meal. At the Last Supper Jesus very plainly explained to the apostles how He wanted them to worship He took bread, and when He had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after supper, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.” (Lk 22:19-20) These words must have been quite enlightening to the apostles, as they finally understood what Jesus meant when he said, “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (Jn 6:54). The apostles also understood in Jesus’ words both the authority and the commandment to “do” perpetually in worship what Jesus had just instituted: the Eucharist. Also Mal 1:11 with gentiles offering pure sacrifice at times in all places which is what Catholic priests do every day around the world! In place of the sacrifice of the Mass, Protestants invented new manmade religious services, ultimately creating many different worship traditions. But as different as they are, most of them have one thing in common. As the Protestant liturgist James White says, “most Protestant worship, historically and at present, has not made the Eucharist its central service,” and “when the eucharist is celebrated, it is often tacked on to the end (or beginning) of the usual Sunday service.” What does this rejection of the Eucharist mean for true worship? the problem with a good deal of Protestant worship isn’t that it’s worship done badly. It’s that it’s not worship at all. I’m not just referring to the stereotypical megachurches in which pastors preach self-help clichés under the veneer of Christianity. I’m also talking about a good deal of so-called “traditional” Protestant services. For instance, here’s a prominent Baptist pastor O S Hawkins talking about what a privilege it has been “to preach each Sunday behind one of the most, if not the most, influential, twentieth-century pulpits in the Western world,” and describing the role of the pulpit in the Baptist conception of worship: That pulpit, like most pulpits in Baptist life, stands in the middle of the building, on center stage, so to speak. It is there to make a statement that central to Baptist worship is the preaching of the book of God to the people of God. . . . Proclamation, the preaching of the gospel, should be central to Christian worship. The sermon is the central dynamic in the worship experience. It is the fulcrum upon which the entire service of worship hinges. Everything that comes before it should point to it, and everything that comes after it should issue out of it (24). That might make for a lovely religious talk, but none of what he describes there is worship. And it’s an incalculable loss to go from having churches built around the altar, where Jesus Christ is truly present and is offered to the Father, to churches built around the pulpit, in which a pastor tells us what he thinks Jesus’ message is.

[@kennylee6499]

This speaks well to my experience and I hope you continue to touch on the dynamic between contemporary/low church denominations and how we relate to Protestantism as a whole

[@John-u8c6g]

Thank you for having the courage to say this. I also have recognized the superficiality of Evangelical Services.

[@Giant_Bulldog]

The superficiality is in the liturgical churches, Evangical churches are objectively good and much better than the liturgical churches

[@John-u8c6g]

@@Giant_Bulldog That’s your opinion but it doesn’t mean that it’s true.