Thanks everyone for engaging in the comments! Please remember to be respectful to Alex, Wes, and others. It's most helpful to focus on arguments, not attacks.
@Ben-hn4nw9 күн бұрын
Gracious as always Mr. Ortlund
@F0r3v3rT0m0rr0w9 күн бұрын
Wish I had your patience.
@Wade_NZ9 күн бұрын
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. We need people like Alex to help us to have better arguments.
@Womb_to_Tomb_Apologetics9 күн бұрын
I'm impressed with how fast people have responded to Alex's video. Thanks for shedding light on some of his exaggerations.
@jmiogo9 күн бұрын
Thank you so much for your expertise. You do a wonderful job. I love your channel.
@sammygoodnight9 күн бұрын
Why do atheists keep saying that Jesus doesn't claim to be God in Mark? Do they just suddenly lose the ability to read when they open it?
@VeridicusMaximus9 күн бұрын
Probably because they don’t have your 1700 years of Trinity Dogma shoved down their throat. And they understand the various textual aspects and thought of what it meant to be divine or a son of God - seemingly unlike you guys.
@tomasrocha61399 күн бұрын
Because he clearly doesn''t and you have to torture the text to make it say what you want it to say
@williambranch42839 күн бұрын
@@tomasrocha6139 All text is interpreted. In speaking with a living person, you can cross examine them to clarify what they are saying.
@sigurdholbarki82689 күн бұрын
@@tomasrocha6139no you don't, you just have to understand a text in the context of the time rather than bringing modern literary expectations to texts of Antiquity. This is something secular scholars don't dream of doing with any other historical literature and actually criticise pseudo-historians for doing it. However, that rule (applied to everything from the literature of classical antiquity to medieval) isn't applied when it comes to the bible. That double standard is something I noticed when I was still an atheist studying Norse, Anglo-Saxon and Irish Literature of the early medieval period.
@timothy2099 күн бұрын
@@tomasrocha6139 They literally crucified Jesus because he claimed to be God
@RuslanKD9 күн бұрын
Alex is grasping for straws 😂😂😂 “missing” verses not in some manuscripts are “significant” so bad.
@MomentumCanada3659 күн бұрын
Cmon. Alex is just riding the viral wave. Wes is a hot topic right now. He had to throw something against the wall. 😂
@Zdp249 күн бұрын
I hope you can do a respond video on Alex’s respond video. It’s obvious Alex has been enjoying a lot of success by attacking Christianity. He does not touch other religions.
@hello214679 күн бұрын
To quote, word for word, ruslan: "manuscripts are so bad" missing words don't matter, right, Ruslan?
@DyinisustheMaenids-hs5lz9 күн бұрын
NO, Wes Huff is lying! The Dead Sea Isaiah is NOT identical - you zealous defenders of the Bible don't seem to mind LYING to prove your points! When It only further undermines your credibility!~
@nicobreezeful9 күн бұрын
@@Zdp24 ow really ???...cmon.??.. sarcasm... it Christianity because we are the most "Christian" otherwise we will be accused of hypocrisy..
@Code_Ramen7179 күн бұрын
If He never claimed to be God, the Jews would have never crucified Him
@joeoleary90109 күн бұрын
The Jews didn't crucify him, the Romans did. Anyway, the Jews were upset with Jesus for "blasphemy," which can mean a number of signs of disrespect for Jewish teachings.
@Code_Ramen7179 күн бұрын
@ Acts 2:36 when Peter calls out the Israelites for being the ones to crucify Jesus. You’re right, of course the Romans were the ones that practiced crucifixion and centurions hung Him up on that tree but the Jewish people were the ones that wanted Jesus crucified, called for His crucifixion, and brought Him to be crucified. You’re splitting hairs when you don’t have to
@donovansbook8 күн бұрын
@@joeoleary9010you are right. Context matter. So let's see... John 10vs33 33 The Jews answered Him, “We are not going to stone You for a good work, but for blasphemy, because You, a mere man, make Yourself out to be God.”
@thomabow89498 күн бұрын
@@Code_Ramen717 You're speaking falsely when you don't have to; write this more detailed and truthful reply first instead of writing "the Jews would have never crucified Him". Because the *Romans* did. Be better
@nathanielalderson91118 күн бұрын
@@joeoleary9010 The Romans would NOT have, unless the Jews had forced the romans to do so. In fact they lied specifically with the intent to get the Romans to act, in the ONLY way they were able to, as a political challenge to their god-man-Caesar.
@WorldofElsuon9 күн бұрын
Alex O'Connor's legalistic approach reminds me of a nit-picking Pharisee: straining over every comma and dash, but completely missing the living message staring him in the face. And like the Pharisees, O'Connor is so ideologically terrified of the risen Christ, that no amount of evidence will persuade him. So what is our answer to such a man? Pray for him and move on.
@Petegarciaiv8 күн бұрын
So on point
@trevorjames30828 күн бұрын
Beautifully stated.
@1234EggNogg8 күн бұрын
@@WorldofElsuon God you sound mental.
@tomn44838 күн бұрын
Yes, I agree to an extent
@kaufmanat18 күн бұрын
Alex is missing the Forest for the trees.
@stephenmillertime9 күн бұрын
Alex was trying to downplay and ruin a great win for Christianity by painting Wes as cocky and over confident, but ended up making himself look petty, over confident and cocky. Sad move by Alex.
@justpix449 күн бұрын
But Wes was factually wrong, he said the scrolls were identical word for word and he said jesus audaciously claimed to be God but we see that he did not
@adamgates11429 күн бұрын
@justpix44 Facts don't matter here
@benedictjajo9 күн бұрын
Did the devil in you get all riled up?@@adamgates1142
@lovesandservesjesuschrist67529 күн бұрын
@@adamgates1142 Yes atheists hate facts. 😢
@lovesandservesjesuschrist67529 күн бұрын
@@justpix44 No. How was he factually wrong. When it's explained in the video. He could have gone into the detail, but it's irrelevant. Word for word here meant theologically, i.e. its content and teaching, which is the most important aspect of a Biblical text. Secondly, of course Jesus boldly claimed Deity throughout the New Testament, how is it that you do not know this?
@omarvazquez33559 күн бұрын
It's like when Bart Ehrman says "there are more variants than there are words in the new testament." But most people leave out that 99% of these variants are absolutely irrelevant.
@jasonbiggs16249 күн бұрын
Bart Erhman did say that those variants did not change the doctrines of christianity.
@thefriesens10719 күн бұрын
I'm guessing Alex probably uses a lot of Ehrman's stuff.
@onionbelly_9 күн бұрын
This simply isn't true. Ehrman does in fact point out that the majority of the variants are insignificant. Here's what he exactly said: "I want us to emphasize a particular point, which is most of these differences that we have in our manuscripts are completely insignificant, unimportant and don't matter for a thing. Many of these differences in the manuscripts are so unimportant that you can't replicate them in translation" - Bart Ehrman
@TruthBeToldPodcast-9 күн бұрын
@@thefriesens1071he does and a lot of it is so bad
@danielvining49479 күн бұрын
Alex literally said that about the vast majority of differences in the Isaiah scroll. And, actually, Bart Ehrman does almost always say that the vast majority are inconsequential.
@EtotheFnD9 күн бұрын
Wes Huff went on the biggest platform in the world and dominated in an even bigger way. When writing this comment, that Joe Rogan episode already has 3.5 million views in less than a week. Wes Huff opened a lot of non-Christian eyes to Jesus...Thank God....Thank Joe Rogan....Thank Wes Huff...and Thank Billy Carson...🙏
@aidanya13369 күн бұрын
Not likely, This video is being heavily promoted in christian circles. If i were to guess the Massive majority of ppl watching that video are christians flocking to their hero.
@kal222229 күн бұрын
Lmao Rogan is incapable of pushing back on anything that Huff claimed. Rogan is one of the few to give Carson a platform and it is not a point of pride to debunk his nonsense.
@BossofBosses1119 күн бұрын
@@aidanya1336This is just wild conjecture. You don't know who is watching the video.
@malirk9 күн бұрын
But did he give anyone a good reason to accept Christianity? His personal story of a "miracle" is amazing for him but doesn't show his God is real. What good reason did Wes give everyone to accept the God of Christianity?
@malirk9 күн бұрын
@@aidanya1336 Exactly. Wes didn't give any reason to accept Christianity.
@rodbrewster462919 сағат бұрын
Pretty dishonest to creatively edit Alex's statements and at the same time only partially quoting expert sources which correspond to his statements.
@wfemp_473018 сағат бұрын
O'Connor has since confirmed that those 2600 variants are not due to spelling.
@bobon12314 сағат бұрын
I have never seen such a successful Knock-Out reply as Alex' video on a matter of biblical text. I had to come back here to check the comments, because I cannot imagine anyone listening to Alex video and not being _upset_ with Gavin for his lies. I started following Alex _because_ of this video of Gavin, he looked like an educated atheist that was worth listening to. After that video, I am thinking unsubscribing from Gavin - I search truth, not confirmation bias. I will wait to unsubscribe for his next video. I am going to unsubscribe unless there is at least 1- an apology for the creative cut-and-paste (both of Alex video and from the external source) and 2- either a _very convincing_ counter-debunking ("Alex was wrong") or an acknowledgment of the blunder ("I was wrong") on the number of variations and spelling mistakes. Lies and vanity are the most common sin of wanna-be scholars, and they are an even greater sin if done to defend the word of God - lying in that context lead to mistrust and loss of faith.
@thomeilearn11 сағат бұрын
@@bobon123 Why even wasting your time like that? Just unsub these ppl. They came to the camera prepared with whatever knowledge that confirm their bias beforehand. It's not another podcast where ppl make mistakes with their memories. This is on purpose. Wes is only on the radar since the other guy went crazy with their intellectual inferiority. Doesn't make any of these apologists less dishonest than the others. Just another day on social media platforms.
@martinsoukup5624 сағат бұрын
@@thomeilearnlet them decide how they spend their time. Maybe they don't want an echo chamber or they want to be up to date with apologetics even if they are wrong and biased.
@thomeilearn3 сағат бұрын
@ If you have to follow ppl who are wrong, dishonest and biased to be up to date with whatever trending these ppl are up to, then it's even worse. Find better ppl than this. If you can't, maybe just dgas anymore and learn stuff by yourself. I said what I said, doesn't mean it's an order. It's at best a recommendation. I'm a nobody on the internet. You know how the internet works. Just get caught on this one specific event. After seeing the latest Alex video, I come back here to check out one more time before quitting the "responding drama". Outside the discussion, these ppl are pretty much boring. Not worth the time.
@TheKingEternal_19 күн бұрын
Alex is happy to advocate for the gnostic gospels but is nitpicky when it comes to the true gospels. Anyways, Wes shattered Alex's grift with the gnostic texts.
@dweblinveltz50359 күн бұрын
I don't think that word means what you think. An atheist cannot advocate for a religious text.
@benry0079 күн бұрын
Alex really likes the gospel of Thomas which is why I think he got offended by it being thrown out.
@Yudiel-e2c9 күн бұрын
@@benry007Fun fact the Gospel of Thomas is a known forgery and literally all historical scholar have all agreed upon it that' it is a dookie forgery😭😭😭.
@davidbell25479 күн бұрын
I noticed that too. The skeptometer is way up about the gospels but way down when it comes to the gnostics
@albino_penguin22689 күн бұрын
I can guarantee you that he thinks the supernatural claims of the gnostics are equally as unlikely as the supernatural claims of the orthodox.
@DrakonPhD9 күн бұрын
I said this on other channels about this topic, but it feels like skeptics are scared, now that Wes Huff (saying basically standard apologetics stuff) is now in the mainstream from the JRE. To the point that so many, all at once, do their best to try and discredit him through incredibly minor things. Yet more evidence the Spirit is at work, when those opposed to it feel threatened.
@justpix449 күн бұрын
But he was wrong, If an athiest says something wrong they are idiots but if a Christian says something wrong you want to be given leeway. The first two points did not disprove Alex's points. 1. Wes was wrong when he said the scrolls were word for word identical 2. Jesus did not Audaciously say he was God. He was vague in how he said that and left much to personal interpretation
@TinyTNT4639 күн бұрын
@@justpix44 Are they idiots in your eyes or mine?
@NWBwana9 күн бұрын
@@justpix44Wes effectively erred by saying literally word for word instead of virtually to the point of almost literally. So ya, technically wrong but his point is still legitimate and correct despite the detail error. Jesus did claim to be God according to the Bible, and this video (as countless others) proves that. Wes didn't say Jesus was doing so flamboyantly, but that the claim to be God was an audacious claim. You disagree with it being an audacious claim, if someone claims to be God?
@matthewstokes16089 күн бұрын
@@justpix44No, the Dead Sea Scrolls ARE word for word in Isaiah - and shocked all historians as a result. And, Jesus Christ claims to be God almost incessantly, every time He speaks - in every Gospel. An atheist - or anyone choosing not to believe in Christ - may have an issue either in seeing the obvious or denying he does, but there is actually something miraculous at work. The Holy Spirit, the Living Light of God is at work and the Bible text is 'alive'. Much as Christ said concerning his use of parables when teaching - there are those whom God wants to understand the message, and there are those whom He wants not to. He came to divide - not to unite.
@Christo-pv7eb9 күн бұрын
So you idiots believe the spirit is working through Wes go get things wrong? Wow….
@truealpha35279 күн бұрын
Did we really think the devil would stay quiet after what God did?
@nicholaschallita64469 күн бұрын
@@truealpha3527 lol
@ishaboibradley52159 күн бұрын
You gotta be silly
@truealpha35279 күн бұрын
@@ishaboibradley5215 did something I say provoke something in you, Patrick?
@jesusisthegreatestever85938 күн бұрын
@@ishaboibradley5215stop crying
@beteljuice52528 күн бұрын
@@truealpha3527Amen! I was expecting this. Even then, everything will work out for good 🙏🏽
@gavinboggs57878 күн бұрын
Funniest thing is Alex is critiquing an actual professional linguist/historical scholar on something he knows absolutely nothing about. He’s in a completely different field than Wes… Alex is a philosopher/theologian absolutely nothing to do with language in historical transcripts.
@VicM888 күн бұрын
So what do you think it means when an atheist non-linguist/historical scholar knows better than a Christian non-linguist/historical scholar concerning the language and history of the Bible?
@JamesN168 күн бұрын
@@gavinboggs5787 right, but he is capable of reading and interviewing other scholars in the field. Acknowledging that Wes was overly certain regarding heavily debated topics that buck the scholarly consensus does not require an expertise in that field.
@akagetobimaru19948 күн бұрын
@@VicM88 which makes alex a clown.... It's like a a carpenter think he knows better at teaching than a teacher😂
@1234EggNogg8 күн бұрын
@@gavinboggs5787 Wes was wrong though and has virtually admitted as much given he is doing a “clarification video”. Strangely, Gavin is even more wrong than Wes was and he was just trying to defend him.
@TCJB338 күн бұрын
Calling a KZbinr a philosopher/theologian is a stretch as well tbh.
@JustSaiyan1179 күн бұрын
I don’t think Alex is making good faith arguments anymore, if he ever was. I think his recent videos, interactions, and statements have shown that his “honest searching” is not, in fact honest: He’s an atheist and fully intends to stay one no matter the evidence. In fact, ’m willing to bet that no amount of evidence would convince Alex because he doesn’t want to be convinced.
@BibleSongs9 күн бұрын
If he ever was. Truth.
@csmoviles9 күн бұрын
💯
@adamgates11429 күн бұрын
What evidence?
@Darksouls1849 күн бұрын
Having genuine doubts about Christianity and also believing mainline critical scholarship stuff doesn't mean that Alex is a dishonest seeker!
@regeneratus-l2w9 күн бұрын
Alex is not a pursuer of the truth
@andreaheba3809 күн бұрын
So thankful for Christians like Gavin and Wes, gifted to engage with confidence, competence and charity.
@1234EggNogg9 күн бұрын
Wes admitted on Alex’s Instagram he needs to lift his game and he will do a video clarifying what he was meaning.
@Era-lk1lo9 күн бұрын
@@1234EggNoggIt's gonna be funny when Wes drops a video basically admitting he is wrong, his fans are like a cult.
@firedome89 күн бұрын
Cult members hate logic, reason and critical thinking. Thanks Alex again for exposing the delusional Bible thumper.
@Grzleeoso9 күн бұрын
Amen to that!
@Artryom9 күн бұрын
@@Era-lk1loEverybody obsessed with cults always belong to a cult. So low tier.🫵🤣 Especially the non-believers when it comes to Alex.
@AdamHenrymusic8 күн бұрын
I really like Alex, but his comments on John being the only gospel where Jesus asserts his divinity just exposes a lack of engagement with the context and audience to which all of the gospels were written.
@Iwillreply8 күн бұрын
If there was one interpretation to tackle, maybe there would be no need, but if you talk to enough people who study this, you get variants that can't be easily squashed.
@ViscountDI8 күн бұрын
It's frustrating because this claim (the Jesus never said he was God outside of John) has been defended ad naseum for decades. If you are going to make that claim then you should also know the counter-argument by now, AND have a nuanced response to the counter argument. Atheists tend to just be lazy debaters
@roberthoyle19718 күн бұрын
Bart ehrman noted new testament scholar agrees with alex!
@josephjames5328 күн бұрын
@roberthoyle1971 the only difference is that Bart, unlike Alex, has conceded that yes, Jesus does claim divinity in Mark's. gospel.
@Iwillreply8 күн бұрын
@@josephjames532, can you link where?
@pjla-lbl9 күн бұрын
Alex was fast talking about this interview, but is too afraid to talk about Islam that is growing fast in the UK.
@MrSeedi769 күн бұрын
He's quite justified in being afraid.
@jr82609 күн бұрын
He has stated before that he doesn't know enough about it to be making strong criticisms which i think is fair. I would like to see him do it though, should he be willing to learn more about it.
@trinchuzosparty9 күн бұрын
@@jr8260 he should. Islam is what is endangering his country, not Christianity.
@christiantruthmatters9 күн бұрын
@@jr8260 oh how convenient
@gwin84639 күн бұрын
@@MrSeedi76so basically your house is on fire and you keep attacking the firemen
@jungle_run9 күн бұрын
9:18 It's similar to if someone comes up to you and says, "Put your hands behind your back. You're under arrest. You have the right to remain silent..." and someone tells you that person never claimed to be a police officer.
@bonnie43uk9 күн бұрын
sorry for what i said earlier. I take that back
@connerestesestes2629 күн бұрын
I think this is a great analogy
@jimbakes27829 күн бұрын
@@jungle_run True- it is like that. And it's certainly possible that they are not in fact a police officer and you have just let yourself get conned. Which is why a pinch of cynicism might be helpful.
@jungle_run9 күн бұрын
@jimbakes2782 Yes, it is possible they're a con. What is not possible is that they didn't claim to be a police officer, that is absurd.
@jimbakes27828 күн бұрын
@@jungle_run The words you have your "someone" saying are indeed words which one might expect a police officer to say, but if you think that represents a "claim" then we are running from quite different definitions of the word. By your logic, even anyone doing an impression of someone else is claiming to in fact be that person, no?
@chrisdoe26599 күн бұрын
I haven't engaged too much with Alex O'Connor's stuff, but previously I always got the impression that he tried to be pretty charitable and assume the best intentions of the people that he's disagreeing with. With this video though, he's acting more like all the other typical pop-atheists. I was pretty disappointed to see it.
@csmoviles9 күн бұрын
That was only when he does interviews and thinks to have an upper hand. But seeing Wes , an actual expert and versed in this field, Alex just lost it! His pride and ego couldn't take it.
@Darksouls1849 күн бұрын
@@csmoviles Plenty of well-respected, "actual experts" in this field disagree with Wes and agree with Alex, which is probably part of why Alex felt the need to say something.
@ramigilneas92749 күн бұрын
He is still very charitable. You simply didn’t notice how much he was holding back in the response video.
@ramigilneas92749 күн бұрын
He is still very charitable. You simply didn’t notice how much he was holding back in the response video.
@F0r3v3rT0m0rr0w9 күн бұрын
@@Darksouls184 plenty disagree with those experts. This does not prove anything. Every field has this. The general consensus is that jesus claimed to be God. Cherry picking experts is weak.
@gandalainsley64678 күн бұрын
Alex made chunk of his fanbase go against him. You don't really see usually people saying anything bad about Alex on his channel. Now there are good amount of people who are surprised and disappointed that Alex would act this way. You have to mess up really bad if atheists call you a little boy who is afraid of God existing. This whole thing with Wes and Billy really does seem like a chain reaction God created because it just keeps getting bigger.
@alfredjohnsoniii9 күн бұрын
This is like when Kendrick responded 20 minutes after Drake dropped but the Christian version.
@thirteenthstep53589 күн бұрын
Lmfaooo
@legomegaman1019 күн бұрын
Oh my gosh this is hilarious
@TJ-0159 күн бұрын
Sometimes you gotta pop out and show….
@ShonenDisciple9 күн бұрын
@@TJ-015😂😂😂😂😂
@nothanksplease9 күн бұрын
Pull out the bible cause Gods watching?
@travtotheworld9 күн бұрын
Alex seemed more emotional than he usually comes across. He's usually able to present his case with a detached attitude.
@feignit9 күн бұрын
Tides are turning
@hello214679 күн бұрын
Alex came across amused.
@nothanksplease9 күн бұрын
i think its cause his soul is stirring; i can see him converting one day. hes a sweet guy i just dont think hes seen Christ yet. i was an anti theist prior and it did take a while. Keep praying saints.
@Spatkav119 күн бұрын
Satan dialed in for this one.
@emperorsascharoni95779 күн бұрын
He did say in the past that he didn’t feel save yet to talk with authority about biblical text. I think this is his first try at it since then and it’s also a viral topic.
@ch1-thevideopodcastingn2268 күн бұрын
Unfortunately Alex only goes after the Christian faith because Christians won’t threaten him with violence. Alex gave his “opinions “ on Islam and then was told basically he could be “reached “ because they knew his address. No more Islamic talks.
@glorijakitanova85446 күн бұрын
No, that’s not true.. they go for the Christian faith, because it’s the TRUTH! And that shakes their demons raping their souls ;)
@bertrandrussell8946 күн бұрын
Alex has done more to rationally challenge Islam than most, certainly any Christian. The question, if you believe, is why does this god of yours sit idly by while Islam takes over? Or that all those Muslims, who imbibed this hokum on mothers knee or drummed into them in "schools"- something they share with Christians -is happy for a full third of the globe to be so misled, and not only that , will burn them forever for their disbelief?
@Williamwilliam15316 күн бұрын
This is unfortunate but not for the reasons you think, I fear
@charlesallison61254 күн бұрын
That doesn't sound like a good defence of Christianity
@deniss29 күн бұрын
Quite honestly, Alex is our of his lane and out of his depth. Taking on Wes isn't something he should undertake so lightly. He isn't dealing with a layman here. Making occasional mistakes in relatively informal conversation does not make Wes's opinion unfounded. He is incredibly grounded and educated in the minutiae of the subject.
@TuckerHolt9 күн бұрын
You know Alex has a theology degree from Oxford right?
@deniss29 күн бұрын
@@TuckerHolt I often argue matters with highly qualified PhD's in theology. It does not mean that they should be arguing the area of philosophy or theology that they are often engaging in with me or that their arguments are sound and well reasoned. It isn't about the qualification either, though a general theology and philosophy degree isn't comparable to that of a PhD in the specific area of debate, and some humility and due diligence would be advisable. Wes is particularly well informed in textual criticism, ancient texts, archeology and other topics relevant here. Alex's arguments are evidently so poorly presented in this case and full of holes that I doubt he gave it much thought. It seems more likely that he made the response in order to knowingly present a false front that would serve to convince only a non-thinking pre-convinced follower of his channel and prevent them from doing further research for themselves and thus switching sides. It is quite unlike his usual well conceived arguments and disappointing.
@TheSulross8 күн бұрын
Wes's ability to draw on his learned knowledge so quickly in summoning names, dates or periods in history, the names of these manuscripts that have numeric components, the obvious display he exhibits that he's read many of these materials he refers to and can relate their salient content. There is so much in that field (at Wes's level of training) to keep in one's head and Wes sure seems to do a very good job at doing exactly that
@EamonBrennan-f2j8 күн бұрын
"Making occasional mistakes..." It's amazing how many weasel phrases get trotted out once an apologists untruths are exposed.
@deniss28 күн бұрын
@ You know what, I picked up on the "more than 400 witnesses" rather than the scriptural reference of 500 immediately. Nonetheless, I am not someone who can come up with immediate replies like Wes and some other apologists. I acknowledge that this is their calling and not mine. They don't claim to be God. If you are without fault, throw the first stone, let me write in the earth in the meantime.... But to be exact, is 500 more than 400 or not? Weasel.
@Ichthyoid9 күн бұрын
I cringed a little when Wes made that claim about the Dead Sea Scrolls. Not because he's wrong (in essence), but it was an easy target for a skeptic like O'Connor to blow out of proportion. Had he said something a bit more measured, like "virtually identical" or "identical with very few caveats", it would've more easily evaded the simpler critiques. It could've even sparked some interested dialogue, since the small differences that DO matter actually help us see a grander scope to the historical narrative of the Bible's formation than something completely identical would have.
@adamgates11429 күн бұрын
You mean if he was honest? Not an apologists strong point.
@crimsonking71799 күн бұрын
@@adamgates1142 no it's you guys grasping for straws, and accusing people of dishonest.
@bonnie43uk9 күн бұрын
@@crimsonking7179 what exactly was dishonest?
@tomasrocha61399 күн бұрын
But Wes was utterly wrong, he literally said it was word for word the same when is not even close
@trinchuzosparty9 күн бұрын
@@tomasrocha6139mot even close? 😅 With most of the differences being just spelling changes? 😂😂😂 Be serious please
@pobishop2359 күн бұрын
Alex O'Connor strikes me as a rhetorician rather than a truth-seeker. He plays word games to defend positions he believes in rather than engaging in discussion in a good faith manner.
@vladolenin13458 күн бұрын
To his own destruction, unless he repents.
@eganfuego8 күн бұрын
Yeah man, I'm so bummed. I thought he really wants to know truth but then he releases a video like this... It's a real shame.
@Autobotmatt4288 күн бұрын
I agree,
@nnkauaiajs69708 күн бұрын
Lmao you guys are so silly. Alex is a legit genius and because he directly disagrees with your worldview, he’s not a truth seeker? This is cope from everyone in this comment section. You can not even articulate your issues with him, only claim he’s not a truth seeker. You state your feelings without any evidence.
@Iwillreply8 күн бұрын
@@nnkauaiajs6970, it must be so nice to feel safe stating things matter of factly (not talking about you), and calling people who add clarity to how strong those statements are the equivalent of a modern day grifter. When time after time, give the stage over and over again, to explain in detail how they reached their conclusion, they fail to bridge the gap in any way that would remove the need for wishful thinking.
@josephjames5329 күн бұрын
The problem I have with Alex O'Connor is that unlike most atheist, he already knows the answer to many of the arguments he's presenting. For example, Alex has had scholars on his channel like William Lane Craig, Frank Turek, and many others who have shown him how in the earlier gospels, Jesus claims divinity. The only reason why he still makes this argument is because he needs to be contentious for his viewers. For somebody who's supposed to be intellectually astute, I find him to be extremely arrogant, smug, and disingenuous.
@parchment5438 күн бұрын
Unfortunately he chose to present himself in this manner despite the good will he had shown in the past. This and his admission of not challenging islam out of fear of violence is a very sad turn of events.
@tomgreene18438 күн бұрын
I disagree with Alex but admire his good manners ...very welcome in todays world !
@AsixA68 күн бұрын
Oops!! You made the mistake of thinking the asinine excuses given by WLC, Turek etc. were accepted as good excuses by Alex. He clearly disagrees with the grifters you mentioned.
@Scarred4life4208 күн бұрын
You know there's an issue when you think that WLC are Frank Turek are scholars. They are professional excuse makers. Con men. They are ridiculous people. WLC's entire claim to fame is saying that we should "lower the bar" for jesus. No. You people will fall for anything.
@hevelhevel8 күн бұрын
Alex knows "the answers" that YOU accept for these arguments. But he does not find them satisfying answers- nor do I. You are demonstrating a complete inability to understand that reasonable, knowledgeable people can believe differently.
@FromAcrossTheDesert9 күн бұрын
6:02 This sort of "Jesus never claimed to be God" shtik is so infantile. I would really like to talk to him about poetry and literature in general to see if they can understand anything about subtext. Jesus walks on water and "They were terrified and asked each other, “Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!”. The Gospel declares "Jesus is Lord". He can't see the forest for the trees. Talking to an atheist is like trying to describe a sunset to a blind man. A blind man who realizes that others can see something by the fact that he feels the warmth of the sun upon his face. He has to depend on others to understand the beauty.
@dweblinveltz50359 күн бұрын
I don't think it's productive to compare your religious text to interpretable poetry and literature. This is already a debated topic, anyway, so what's the harm in Alex... debating it?
@af43969 күн бұрын
When Christians don't even realize their Bible is polytheistic because they can't read, research, or think for themselves, it's irrelevant what they may think of an Atheist's interpretation of the world.
@FromAcrossTheDesert9 күн бұрын
@@dweblinveltz5035 If a person cannot understand subtext, than that is the first hurdle he needs to cross. This discussion of the Gospel not implying Jesus devinity is ludicrous. And I have a suspicion after this 20+ years of the rise of the new atheists that the people who engage in such arguments are sincere, but lack the ability to understand literature and poetry. Is there a correlation between a person not getting the message of the Gospel and their inability to understand the literature? I would like to investigate this hypothesis. Are you an atheist?
@sigurdholbarki82689 күн бұрын
@@dweblinveltz5035but it is, and you do need to understand it as Ancient Literature and apply the same standard to all premodern literature. I hear secular scholars making exactly the same arguments against pseudo-historians who read early medieval literature through a modernist lens, even other literature from Antiquity. There absolutely IS a double standard when it comes to Judeo-Christian literature, I noticed this when I was still an atheist.
@beorntwit7119 күн бұрын
No. The Christian dogmatic interpretation of Jesus' claims to divinity simply isn't the only plausible way to read this. What you call 'atheist blindness' is atheists being able to drop the later developing dogma, and read the texts as they explicitly are, without presupposing univocality towards those later developed dogmas.
@AlistairCalvert9 күн бұрын
I started watching Alex o Conner 2 years ago, 18 months ago I gave my life to Christ ☦️ hearing what atheist scholars had to say made me realise how weak the atheist position was and that God was real and did every thing he said he would Edit: I feel like I should put this here seeing as atheists keep replying, please guys, explain how (x requires y, x therefore y) isn’t true? If that statement isn’t true then nothing is which includes you saying that it’s not true… it’s a self refuting position. This is what made me abandon my previous worldview and anyone with a brain would do the same
@bonnie43uk9 күн бұрын
you can lead a horse to water
@Belmont17149 күн бұрын
@@bonnie43ukYou can say that about yourself mate. Your channel says that no religion in the world fits your idea of a god, but Christianity is literally the only one backed by historical and archaeological evidence as well as philosophical. It doesn't matter how many info Christians give to you, you will never accept it.
@koalaplays88559 күн бұрын
“Atheist scholars” lmao. Yeah very believable testimony
@AlistairCalvert9 күн бұрын
@ what issue do you take with my use of words? Since you’re here tho Maybe you have better arguments than dillamonkey or Dawkins… do you believe in objective morality?
@Belmont17149 күн бұрын
@@bonnie43uk You can say that about yourself mate.
@BibleSongs9 күн бұрын
Wes' issue was not THAT the non-canonical writing had an agenda, but that its agenda was derivative and, as with its arguments, demonstrated its late-date as compared to the real Gospels.
@dweblinveltz50359 күн бұрын
This is maybe one decent point in this whole video. Alex should have taken in a bit more context (same goes for Gavin here) before responding. All gospels are derivative to some degree, but the non-canonical writing are *undermining in their agenda.
@ayolovephat9 күн бұрын
Actually, the contrary to what you stated is the case. Shalom, Cheers and Happy Sunday to you.
@EthanPageHunter7 күн бұрын
To whom it may concern, Wes just posted a video addressing some of these clerical errors on his personal channel.
@WeakestAvenger9 күн бұрын
Goodness, these claims that Jesus didn't claim to be God are just lame at this point. They need to do some deeper digging. For example, in his response to the high priest at his trial, Jesus claims to be the Son of Man from Daniel 7:13-14 (see Mark 14:62). That Danielic Son of Man is said to be served by all peoples. The word for "serve" in both Aramaic and Greek is a word used for service to one's god. Thus, Jesus was claiming to be the Son of Man to whom all people will give the service that is due to God. And like Gavin said here, the response is that the high priest tears his clothes, calls Jesus' words blasphemy, and calls for his execution (as do the others of the Sanhedrin). But it wasn't a capital crime to claim to be the Messiah. The clear conclusion from this is that Jesus was claiming equality with God, and his opponents knew it.
@Darksouls1849 күн бұрын
I think some scholars would challenge that notion that the Son of Man is understood to be God. The assumptions underlying this are (1) that strict monotheism was practiced in that culture during that time, and that (2) there were not any "levels" of divinity: you were either divine or not. Scholars would challenge both of those, and arguments like the one from the word "serve", from Jesus being more than human, or Jesus being worshipped don't work well with that in view. Also, in the Enochic literature from around that time, the Son of Man is depicted as being worshipped but also being totally distinct from God
@dondrejames16799 күн бұрын
So what? The undeniable fact remains that Jesus never said the words, "I am God". He never said it once. He said he was one with God, and the same can be said of any awakened individual. It doesn't matter how you try to chain the verses together, there is no place in the entire bible where Jesus actually claims to be God atleast in the way your narrative portrays him.
@MichaelWilliams-eq4kt9 күн бұрын
@@dondrejames1679 Saying "I am God" begs the question of which one because there are many gods - anything that lives in the heavens is elohim, or "a god", but there is only one Creator, capital 'G' God - Yahweh - who is distinguished from the other gods by His name, which embodies His attributes. Jesus bypassed this and straight up said He is Yahweh in the exact way the Jews would understand if He was claiming equality with Yahweh. This is exactly what He said to Caiaphas, who then demanded his execution for perceived blasphemy, which it would be unless Jesus actually is Yahweh, and He just so happens to be. Demanding that Jesus make His claims to first century Jews in a way that would satisfy contemporary West language makes no sense.
@dweblinveltz50359 күн бұрын
@@MichaelWilliams-eq4kt Jesus said, "I am Yahweh"? I'm pretty sure everyone, even us contemporary westerners, would recognize that he is claiming to be God if he said that.
@dweblinveltz50359 күн бұрын
This is still a hotly debated topic, especially if you listen to Islamic scholars. If it's lame to you, sorry.
@purelightapologetics49309 күн бұрын
When anyone says that Jesus didn’t claim to be God in the Synoptic Gospels, I want to tell them to try reading Mark again with their eyes open and their brain on this time. 😂
@tomasrocha61399 күн бұрын
He didn't you're just torturing the text to make it say what you want
@MrCdepue9 күн бұрын
@@tomasrocha6139 What about Isaiah 9:6 considering the disciples themselves affirm he is the Messiah. And the fact that if you've seen him you've seen the father yet no one has seen the father, makes those titles in Isaiah 9:6 seem a little more relevant
@Squalleternally9 күн бұрын
@@tomasrocha6139 Mark 2:5-12 (Forgiveness of Sins) Jesus tells a paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven," an act that astonishes the scribes, who think, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" By healing the paralytic, Jesus demonstrates His authority not only to heal but also to forgive sins, a prerogative of God. Mark 4:39-41 (Calming the Storm) Jesus rebukes the wind and commands the sea to be still. The disciples marvel, "Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?" This recalls Old Testament imagery where God alone commands the seas (e.g., Psalm 107:29). Mark 6:45-52 (Walking on Water) Jesus walks on water and identifies Himself with the divine phrase, "Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid." The phrase "It is I" (Greek: ego eimi) echoes God's self-revelation in Exodus 3:14 ("I AM"). Mark 8:27-30 (Peter’s Confession) When Peter declares, "You are the Christ," Jesus affirms this identification but instructs them not to tell anyone, reflecting the "Messianic secret." Mark 14:61-64 (Before the Sanhedrin) When the high priest asks Jesus directly, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" Jesus responds, "I am; and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." This combines Daniel 7:13-14 (the Son of Man receiving divine authority) and Psalm 110:1 (sitting at God’s right hand), unmistakably claiming divinity. The high priest's reaction-tearing his robes and accusing Jesus of blasphemy-confirms that the claim was understood as a declaration of divine status.
@LatStarr9 күн бұрын
@tomasrocha6139 no "torturing of the text" required. Every chapter of Mark demonstrates Jesus's diety. Mark literally opens with a Messianic prophecy fulfilment of Isaiah 40:3 written 700 years before Jesus's birth. In Mark 2:5, Jesus forgives a lepers sins. Something only God can do. Mark 3:11 shows demons that have been cast out acknowledging Jesus is the Son of God. Mark 4: 39 sees Jesus rebuking the wind and ordering it to be still. Mark 5:27 shows a sick woman touching the robe of Jesus and is immediately healed. Mark continues in this vein for all 16 chapters. The last chapter of course confirming the resurrection of Jesus. The Book of Mark has high Christology throughout all of it and amply shows Jesus's divinity
@tomasrocha61399 күн бұрын
@@MrCdepue To quot the NET notes "Ps 45:6 addresses the Davidic king as “God” because he ruled and fought as God’s representative on earth. Ancient Near Eastern art and literature picture gods training kings for battle, bestowing special weapons, and intervening in battle. According to Egyptian propaganda, the Hittites described Rameses II as follows: “No man is he who is among us, It is Seth great-of-strength, Baal in person; Not deeds of man are these his doings, They are of one who is unique” (See Miriam Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, 2:67). According to proponents of this view, Isa 9:6 probably envisions a similar kind of response when friends and foes alike look at the Davidic king in full battle regalia. When the king’s enemies oppose him on the battlefield, they are, as it were, fighting against God himself"
@benjiebarker9 күн бұрын
i hate how alex tries to unfairly criticized wess huff when wess was speaking from memory but alex is reading off a teleprompter…so stupid
@thomabow89498 күн бұрын
i hate how wes gets on a big podcast and speaks poorly from memory rather confidently in an apologetic fashion to millions who dont know better and had to have atheists come and criticize it. too bad we cant wind back the clock and challenge the content in real time
@akagetobimaru19948 күн бұрын
@@thomabow8949it's a podcast not a formal interview.... People who don't use youtube won't even know what a podcast is...🤦
@RYANREYNOLDS1418 күн бұрын
@@thomabow8949 Wes wasn't wrong though. It's practically word to word identical. Alex's argument is exactly what's said in this video. "Colour is spelled color" is the 5% "inaccuracy" which isn't even an inaccuracy. Then his biggest "inaccuracy" was there's a verse missing.
@wfemp_47308 күн бұрын
Hell, I'm an atheist and I know the purported eyewitness count was 500.
@niceguy1915 күн бұрын
@RYANREYNOLDS141 Would you say "practically word for word" has the same meaning as "word for word"? If you had said the former, and I quoted you as saying the latter (omitting one word, but not altering anything else), would that be "word for word"?
@Crannogman468619 сағат бұрын
I wonder if this guy is lying or just wrong. None of the differences have to do with different ways of spelling words
@thespyer2k9 күн бұрын
I like these more short form videos interacting with popular trends that you've been throwing in Gavin
@CleavetoAntiquity9 күн бұрын
I agree it’s refreshing
@SamuelWRWB9 күн бұрын
Why is Alex O'Connor commenting on this? Seems pretty far outside his expertise.
@dariusga67529 күн бұрын
It's because all atheist youtuber need to generate more views in order to catch up with the algorithm and its channel growth. So they almost always just take what is trending right now, and put aside all of their expertise to make video much faster.
@ramigilneas92749 күн бұрын
You say that while watching a video of a pastor instead of a historian.
@benjamindover24839 күн бұрын
He has a degree in theology from oxford..
@ramigilneas92749 күн бұрын
@@dariusga6752 Because Christians didn’t react to Wes Huff right after his 15 minutes of fame started, right?😂
@Artryom9 күн бұрын
@@ramigilneas9274You- didn’t read his actual comment, did you?
@clarkemorledge23989 күн бұрын
At 1:35, Gavin says the British "weirdly" put the "u" in the word "colour." ..... Oh, boy. Gavin is going to get it now from across the pond! Take cover, Gavin!
@TruthUnites9 күн бұрын
haha that was something I winced at afterwards in rewatching. Sorry, all my British friends.
@cathyfourie33239 күн бұрын
😅
@thefriesens10719 күн бұрын
@@TruthUnites Ah, banter is fun.
@Tasman_Tea9 күн бұрын
Yeah, Gavin! The clue is in the name: "English/England" - America is the anomaly! 😉
@0nshore9 күн бұрын
@@Tasman_TeaNo no no, we speak American, not English.
@Steelmage9920 сағат бұрын
I have yet to meet an honest religious apologist. This video didn't change that.
@calebjosephcountry9 күн бұрын
I’ve seen many saying that Alex is the only atheist having “good faith arguments”, yet I think he proved the opposite in this case
@truincanada9 күн бұрын
@@calebjosephcountry Big Time Concur.
@MrSeedi769 күн бұрын
He's proved that many times before. Atheists simply want to paint him as their saint who can do nothing wrong. He's lied many many times. And not only about the Bible but about things in history that are not disputed in any way. Or he's simply much less informed about things than he claims or tries to appear.
@tomasrocha61399 күн бұрын
@@MrSeedi76 "He's lied many many times" Name them
@myjunedayya9 күн бұрын
His changing it back and forth depending on his mood.
@Era-lk1lo9 күн бұрын
Better not point out that Wes's dating of John isnt historical consensus more fantasy and that the manuscripts werent word for word as Wes said they were because point out someones dishonesty is dishonest. Why dont you guys engage in the arguments instead of acting like a cult?
@Iceracer252 күн бұрын
People criticize Alex for nit picking, but if you're going to live your life worshiping an imaginary man in the sky based on bad evidence, you might also want to be nit picky about your ridiculous claims as well. Especially when you claim know what's true and real, usually based on what city you were born in.
@DudeswagmasterКүн бұрын
Why do you guys always say "sky daddy" its getting old come up with something new
@ecaneas9491Күн бұрын
Based on bad evidence? Alright let's talk about that first
@zacharygreene8169Күн бұрын
lol arrogance at its finest, bad evidence? how about disliking something so much it just cant be true for you, the amount scientific proof, yes i said it, scientific proof, that the things in the bible DID happen, the historical evidence should be all u even need but sure, how about actually look into it with a somewhat open mind and attempt to understand
@zealotyk437920 сағат бұрын
@@Dudeswagmaster he litterally didnt say that lmao
@wfemp_473018 сағат бұрын
@@zacharygreene8169 I can concede that some events in the Bible happened, but the resurrection? There's no scientific proof.
@roviez16 сағат бұрын
Why did you leave out an essential part of Alex's argument?
@Steelmage9920 сағат бұрын
So Alex was right; the texts were not identical word for word (with an additional emphasis presented by Wes to Joe Rogan). Good to know...
@MarysBibleTime9 күн бұрын
I think it's fantastic this Joe Rogan episode is getting so much attention. Praise God that these truths are being made so publicly made known
@adamgates11429 күн бұрын
We're living in incredibly stupid times
@niccolopaganini17829 күн бұрын
All things aside, 5:49 can't understand how Alex is being intellectually honest and serious here. I expected better from him
@harvestofgold8 күн бұрын
Yes, sad.. he lacks basic knowledge.
@christianbutler917219 сағат бұрын
Just watched Alex’s response to this video- I am praying for you Gavin, that you might show Alex the love of Christ and speak with grace and carefulness! Keep up the good work!!
@GrowMasterGeneral16 сағат бұрын
Gavin's gonna need all the prayer he can get after getting dunked on by Alex. That response video by Alex absolutely crushed Gavin and Wes.
@TianYuanEX11 сағат бұрын
@@GrowMasterGeneral Unfortunately, his fans are absolutely brainwashed as you can see (alongside most of other Christians, especially in this sphere), so I don't think anything is gonna change
@Jerrymc19758 күн бұрын
This is what a debased mind looks like. I know, I used to have one and was like him. Man did God rescue me. This is the time to show Grace. Had it not been for Gods grace for me I would still be lost
@Iwillreply8 күн бұрын
Debased? Okay, what event rescued you? Is it obvious enough that most would reach the same conclusion of what happened?
@TannerPaul-op4nk9 күн бұрын
The issue with someone who makes a living off of being a skeptic of a belief system is that in order to produce content consistently, you have to start stretching for arguments and nitpicking an individual like Wes in order to have enough for content creation. None of Alex’s arguments really cut through to the main points Wes is making.
@joeoleary90109 күн бұрын
It was Wes who made the grand claim "word for word." It was not word for word.
@Science_explained9 күн бұрын
I was expecting this - thanks, Gavin, and God bless!
@joshgilbert32399 күн бұрын
So, this alex guy made a video saying essentially nothing except trying to validate his arhiesm
@hevelhevel8 күн бұрын
Can't you just accept that someone in your ingroup was wrong and is being criticized for it? Alex isn't merely "trying to validate his atheism" here.
@JP_21M8 күн бұрын
Lol. Wes appears to be over the target. Alex looks desperate here, grasping and flailing.
@TheAardar6 күн бұрын
Someone like an Alex O’Connor is an interesting case to me. Anyone that spends so much of their time trying to debunk something they themselves don’t believe in, probably don’t have much of a foundation themselves. The only reason I can could see to do this is because you believe that it’s hurtful or incorrect. But you could only make that claim if your system of thought provides for making such a judgment. Incorrect compared to what? Hurtful according to what standard?
@kmyers23379 күн бұрын
Thanks!
@anglicanaesthetics9 күн бұрын
Great point about Mark 14! To add to it, in Daniel 7:13-14, λατρευω in the LXX and "pelach" in the MT is used here. These are terms *exclusively* used of deity. Further, in both the OT and Qumran, there was no other figure portrayed as the final judge of the world than YHWH. No creature was said to be the judge. Further, no mere creature was ever said to be the bridegroom of Israel as such--not even the human king. Yet Jesus is framed both as final judge and the bridegroom of Israel.
@anglicanaesthetics9 күн бұрын
On the 500, it's claimed "well no one seemed to relate this event". But here's what we have to remember. Forget that most people in the ancient world were illiterate, we know that the churches dispersed very on in *communities*. Irenaeus tells us that he heard Polycarp relate his conversations with John and "those who had seen Jesus"--if these churches were actually dynamic early communities (as, indeed, they very quickly became organized communities), then the 500 likely would have become part of the fabric of these communities.
@zekdom9 күн бұрын
@@anglicanaestheticsHow is pelach used in Daniel 7:27? Who’s the referent of pelach in 7:27, as far as the Masoretic text is concerned?
@raphaelfeneje4869 күн бұрын
@@anglicanaesthetics God bless you
@anglicanaesthetics9 күн бұрын
@zekdom Some argue it's "the saints", but that doesn't work since the saints is plural and pronoun is singular. In verse 27, the referernt is "The Most High".
@zekdom9 күн бұрын
@@anglicanaesthetics Interestingly enough, the Complete Jewish Bible renders it as “serve and obey them”. Can you elaborate a bit more as to why Daniel 7:27 should say “him” instead of “them”?
@janebee2658 күн бұрын
The huberus is a little ridiculous to me that alex thinks he can correct a biblical expert with about 20 years of experience on such a complex topic as ancient texts. I mean come on now...
@asherolliver89959 күн бұрын
Shout out to Gavin Ortland from Christchurch, New Zealand. Your content is so important. The reaction of a reaction is actually needed, love that you came in to defend our brother in Christ. Would love to hang out with you on Discord sometime! God bless.
@kevinkelly21629 күн бұрын
But your brother in christ was spreading lies and making christians look like rubes.
@fuelmotive87169 күн бұрын
Still keep you in my thoughts from that horrific shooting.
@loganmanderfield11629 күн бұрын
Nice to see a Kiwi Christian. I've been trying to find good Christian speakers/pastors in the English-speaking world. Any chance you could recommend a New Zealander?
@UnknownAjax9 күн бұрын
@loganmanderfield1162 Check out Brendan Malone - Left Foot Media. 😊 More political commentary and apologetics on cultural issues than Scriptural analysis though.
@stalliyon7 күн бұрын
@@loganmanderfield1162 I don’t think there is brother lol. I live in Wellington and have also tried looking for a apologetic or pastor that defends and spreads the faith. I recommend though people like David Wood, Sam Shamoun and GodLogic though
@Pelinca4 күн бұрын
The Lord used Wes Huff in an amazing way, and is continuing to use him through Apologetics Canada. The Spirit is on the move.
@richardmurillo24139 күн бұрын
Perhaps Alex O’Connor should take more time to listen and reflect rather than quickly jumping to conclusions by focusing on minor points in the Bible. Instead of nitpicking, perhaps he could consider the incredible effort and divine inspiration that went into creating the pieces of manuscripts that ultimately came together to mirror the Holy Bible we have today. While there are indeed differences of interpretation that could be debated endlessly based on one’s beliefs and opinions, the Word of God remains eternal. It is those who stand with God, not those seeking notoriety, who uphold its enduring truth.
@trinchuzosparty9 күн бұрын
He should start making videos about Islam 😊
@sigurdholbarki82689 күн бұрын
It's called arguing a whole from an edge case, it's a logical fallacy
@myjunedayya9 күн бұрын
That's what gets him views.
@Era-lk1lo9 күн бұрын
Why is Wes presenting something as a fact which isn't to make Christianity seem more impressive? And because its minor you do not care? Its nitpicking when someone corrects you on it?
@QuiveringEye9 күн бұрын
Alex has a degree in theology. It is asinine to suggest he hasn't considered it.
@jalengaskin84509 күн бұрын
Why is Alex even criticizing this? Im not saying he can’t be in the conversation, but he’s not a biblical scholar
@troymarks16579 күн бұрын
Alex’s criticism seems more about undermining Christianity than genuine inquiry. Like Billy Carson, he builds his platform by challenging faith, referencing texts like the Gospel of Thomas, which Wes has already debunked. He promotes atheism using the tactics of doubt, creating the illusion of seeking answers while implying Christianity isn’t real. It feels like he’s trying to position himself as more knowledgeable than actual scholars, likely because his platform-and income-depends on defending his narrative against challenges like Wes.
@DrakonPhD8 күн бұрын
Because Atheists are allowed to be experts in every field of biblical study - but the second an apologist makes a video about archeology or something similarly technical they are talking about something they know nothing about (See Dr Kipp, the master of doing exactly what he claims others do).
@AlexHawker7619 күн бұрын
How long until we see a conversation between Alex O'Conner and Gavin? It must happen!
@ishaboibradley52159 күн бұрын
Alex would demolish buddy
@lukeroberts163020 сағат бұрын
u are wrong on literally everything lmao. The 2600 differences didnt even include spelling and grammar mistakes to begin with lmao
@malachickisawesome18 сағат бұрын
Make sure not to deceptively edit and lie about someone who is known to do response videos, big dog
@gospellifechurchhuntsville8 күн бұрын
Alex seems sharp until you hear him in conversation with actual Christian scholars and you quickly see that he is out of his depth on most of these issues.
@tristerfalm8 күн бұрын
With regard to #5 and the 500 witnesses, Paul's own argument is the same. He doesn't go to great lengths to justify the claim, because he himself states "most of whom are still living". His point is "Don't believe me? Fine, I don't have to explain it, just go ask the hundreds of people who can give you first-hand testimony. They're still alive." In fact, the only reason we would expect him to give more explanation or evidence of this claim is if they *weren't* still alive and the claim easy to verify. The very thing Alex O'Connor seems to desire would itself discredit the claim.
@LeoAnimationsTMNT8 күн бұрын
This helps, especially considering this was a letter. If Paul was lying, wouldn't that be something the enemies of Jesus would've gone after? Wouldn't people start turning away from Jesus' movement realizing there weren't actually witnesses? I mean, considering this letter was written during a time of Christian persecution, I can't imagine anyone actually hopping on the bandwagon unless there was sufficient evidence to do so.
@michaelwill78118 күн бұрын
I have to agree. "Many whom are still alive" is the key point and it's amazing how often that is missed. It is actually one of the key points about the historicity of the Gospels in general: Everything was being testified to people, in the areas where the events took place. If it was false, the apostles and companions would have been debunked everywhere they went because the people would have been like: "Ummm, we can go to the tomb, if you like..." "Errr, I was there and, 1st, there was about 50 people and Jesus did not feed them, they brought their own bread and fish." "Yeah, sorry. Lazarus never died, this is made up garbage." "I hate to tell you but I was there... Jesus said a prayer over the wine we already had. There was already plenty and this 'water into wine' thing is just silly." The only historical attempt to refute any of it that I have seen, to date, was the jewish leaders claiming the disciples stole they body, which was never found. Apparently, these "illiterate and ignorant fishermen and goat herders" were much more clever than the jewish leaders and Romans, eh? *_The interesting part is they all admitted the tomb was empty._*
@EamonBrennan-f2j8 күн бұрын
Are they living now?
@hevelhevel8 күн бұрын
I can tell you that JFK's assassination was witnessed by 500 people, many of whom are still living. That isn't a claim that I know any of the eyewitnesses personally. Paul doesn't even mention any names of the 500, which sure would be useful if someone wanted to go verify this. If God inspired these words, it sure would have been nice for him to give Paul a nudge so that Paul would actually give us some specifics here. Apologists tend to put enormous weight on this 500 witnesses claim, and as a skeptic, I am very unimpressed.
@LeoAnimationsTMNT8 күн бұрын
@@hevelhevel What use would those names do for us anyways? We have plenty of names listed within the gospels and letters that saw Jesus, and skeptics push that under the rug. Heck, Mary Magdalene was the first to find the empty tomb, and she was a woman, which is pretty infamous for being unreliable testimony to the Jews in the 1st century. The letter being sent was a letter telling the church to verify it for themselves. Paul's letter wasn't for a 21st century audience, it was for the church. Don't act like giving names would make you think it's any more credible, because it's already been done before.
@ZacharyMorris-x5p4 күн бұрын
Alex is doing a great job in stirring people like Gavin to rise and explain even in more detail the accuracy of truth! 🙏
@amandacarter77406 күн бұрын
Sir i salute you💯 fabulous rebuttle of the pettiness that came out of alex o'connors mouth was a negative reflection of his mean spirit. Thank God for Wes Huff and the likes of him
@JohnJohn-cu7nk8 сағат бұрын
Stop being deceitful !. YOU CANT clip Alex's staments and remove the parts that destroy your argument.The bibal says God hates deceitful actions. DO BETTER!!!.😮
@mehanyr9 күн бұрын
Thank you for getting a response to O’Connor’s video so quickly, the speed of your upload really keeps the conversation relevant
@Pau11Wa116 күн бұрын
The quantity of variations means almost nothing. What’s important is the quality of those variations. As Wes and Gavin have laid out, they’re inconsequential.
@Philagape6 күн бұрын
In the synoptic gospels, Jesus said He was Lord of the Sabbath (making Him the Creator and Lawgiver), and the whole point of His final exchange with the scribes in Jerusalem, where He quotes Psalm 110:1, is that He is the Adonai in that verse, David's Lord.
@mervcharles83654 күн бұрын
If you don’t have enough information to confirm nor deny that the Isaiah isn’t word for word with the masoretic text & also don’t know for sure what Wes Huff meant when he said “word for word” then how are refuting Alex’s claim that Wes’ statement was an overreach or at best incorrect? It’s like you open the 1st point with the intent of defending Huff but unintentionally stated that Alex was right
@krnicmd46249 күн бұрын
"claiming explicitly" same arguments Muslims like to use. Alex is grasping at straws
@joeylizotte753720 сағат бұрын
Just saw Alex's response to this.. You're in over your head.
@thomasrutledge594119 сағат бұрын
I think that Doc Ortlund knew that Alex O'connor would dunk him. He's maneuvering like a hawk. =) kzbin.infoAhMxD9VM1sQ?si=SXRob6Izu0HLXyP2
@foonshanks56558 күн бұрын
Public skeptics are annoyingly presumptuous about what the people they're criticizing are saying, and believe.
@helwrecht16375 күн бұрын
To say that Jesus only claims to be God in John is ridiculous. I’ve seen the erroneous statement that he doesn’t say it in mark, but the idea that he doesn’t say it in Matthew and Luke is nonsense
@jenniferboht9614 күн бұрын
Thank you for your videos. You really are a grounding voice in Protestantism
@zacshifler8 күн бұрын
Alex made some great points here. Gonna have to side with him. If Jesus followers heard him predict his death and resurrection, why are they so confused at his death and resurrection?
@YeshuaAkbar-u3f8 күн бұрын
Because you are a mo!on and it very difficult to explain to a complete mo!on.
@donyoung50918 күн бұрын
They were confused because the public opinion of a messiah in their day was a person who would restore the kingdom of Israel to greatness, not someone who would save humanity from sin. That view was at odds with Christ’s statements that He would die.
@zacshifler7 күн бұрын
@donyoung5091 christ also told the apostles (including judas) that each would sit on a throne and rule over 1 of the 12 tribes of Israel each. Sounds like mixed messaging. There were several prophecies about the coming messiah that were not fulfilled (yet at least). One world government, return of j3ws to Israel, rebuilding Solomons temple, world peace etc.
@donyoung50917 күн бұрын
@@zacshifler Interesting. I hadn’t heard that one before. Here’s the passage. “Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.” Matthew 19:27-29 KJV After a rich young ruler refuses to sell his possessions and follow Christ, Peter says that Jesus’ disciples have forsaken everything to follow Christ. And Jesus tells him that everyone who forsakes everything for Christ will be rewarded in heaven and judge the 12 tribes. It doesn’t say that each one would judge a particular tribe (which would require 12). But if it did mean that, the 11 disciples selected another to be the 12th. Also, Jesus’ parable of the sower throwing seeds teaches that while many accept the gospel, some will fall away (like Judas). The reward is for those who persevere (like the 11).
@donyoung50917 күн бұрын
@@zacshifler Regarding the prophecies, I’m not exactly sure what you’re referring to. Those specific examples do seem to fit within the popular Rapture doctrine. This doctrine, however, came about in the 1800s and is not a traditional doctrine. I believe it calls for a single world ruler to setup his capital in Israel. Does he also rebuild the temple? It seems like the Jews have successfully returned to their native homeland with the formation of the nation of Israel. About the one government, a prophetic dream in Daniel has this partial interpretation: “And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.” Daniel 2:43-44 KJV The statue represents world powers: Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and then a fractured group of kingdoms. Eventually, God sets up His kingdom which rules over all others. But until God sets up His kingdom, the world’s nations strive against each other and there is no single ruler or world peace. Again, I suspect those prophecies you mention are related to the Rapture, a very new interpretation of the Bible, but also don’t want to put worlds in your mouth if you intended something else. Peace.
@benjiebarker9 күн бұрын
0:35 book of isiah of the dead sea scrolls is 95% identical to masoretic text….95% is EXTRAORDINARY. it’s an accurate statement to give. let everyone know they are liars and think we are stupid
@JudasMaccabeus19 күн бұрын
He said “word for word identical” which is categorically not true.
@quiet_erp9 күн бұрын
@@JudasMaccabeus1 did you even watch the video? Your statement was addressed thoroughly and adequately.
@sigurdholbarki82689 күн бұрын
@@JudasMaccabeus1 I'm an early medieval specialist and 95% is basically considered identical. This is an indication that either someone copied the same manuscript (for which the threshold is lower than 95%) or that there is an oral tradition with an exceptionally high degree of accuracy, given the 1000 year difference. You have to bear the technology of the period in mind: no photo copiers, no printing presses etc. 95% for manuscripts IS identical
@PlaylistWatching12349 күн бұрын
@@quiet_erpOrtlund contends that it's hard to be 100% correct in a freewheeling 3 hour conversation. Which I think is fair, tbh.
@JudasMaccabeus19 күн бұрын
@ Yes I watched it. My statement is still valid. But in the larger scheme of things, whether or not the scrolls are 100% identical or 95% identical matters very little and doesn’t really change anything, I agree.
@viewermc91289 күн бұрын
Very blessed with wes huff defending from demons 😃✝️🙌
@willforbes82619 күн бұрын
Demons like Alex?
@austin337859 күн бұрын
Alex demons were writhing @@willforbes8261
@lisboakiteculo96989 күн бұрын
@@willforbes8261Yes 😊
@nicholaschallita64469 күн бұрын
Wes is defending people from angels
@cairoayrescosta67989 күн бұрын
Thank you Gavin Ortlund for defending Mere Christianity! A lot of my Catholic brothers on the internet are just spending too much time talking about church politics or going up against Protestans. Like we are not living in a post-Christian age already.
@DR._PAUL8 күн бұрын
As far as claims of deity is concerned, the book of Isaiah showed concerning the Messiah, "he shall be called Mighty God." Hence, a claim to be the Christ already has that built into the expectation from a prophetic definition. They were going to stone Jesus for saying, "before Abraham was, I Am," not because they didn't understand what he was saying, but rather because they understood exactly what Jesus was saying. All of the I AM statements of Jesus seem to be Old Testament names of God.
@chiakum9 күн бұрын
2,600 minute discrepancies between 2 scripts that 1000 years apart! I am in awe of how well the Bible is being preserved.
@ianhastie57859 күн бұрын
There are plenty of times where i can understand Alex’s opinion, but then there are way too many times when i can’t help but facepalm them.
@becklyn38 күн бұрын
Anyone who has read the old testament can see that Jesus is throwing that he is God in their faces constantly. So many people with opinions online who dont study the text in its entirety 🙄
@rickjohnson68186 күн бұрын
I really appreciate yourself, Wes and other scholars using these platforms to bring the Gospel to the masses in the same vein as Paul did on Mars Hill.
@mihail64469 күн бұрын
Wes commented on Alex's instagram post saying hes making a clarification video
@steverational86159 күн бұрын
I no longer tune in to Alex because he seems to be solely focused on cherry picking issues with Christians and often in a rather simplistic manner in contrast to much of his earlier work as cosmic skeptic. And why does he not challenge the veracity of other religions?
@jessecornelius3928 күн бұрын
They do whatever they can to deny Christ.
@USAviation857 күн бұрын
Really love that actual scholars are now making a presence on KZbin rather than these casuals.
@bliss-brat9 күн бұрын
I was expecting some valid questions/critiques from Alex and was shocked to hear literally none. Seems like he’s just trying to leach of the virality of Wes.
@nowavessurfer95606 күн бұрын
I’m here from Ruslans page 😊
@KRashad9 күн бұрын
The atheist argument is so tired; certainty in nothingness is more intellectually honest than certainty of something. Child, please. Connor’s rebuke is overall leveraged at the certainty or confidence in Wes’ convictions-not a lack of intellectuality. Skeptics have a problem with Christian certainty-but Christians have great cause for confidence and certainty: “These things I have written unto you that believe in the name of the Son of God, that ye MAY KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe in the name of the Son of God.”
@Andrew-it7fb9 күн бұрын
Certainly in nothingness? Strawman arguments like this are so tired.
@gageduke76529 күн бұрын
Proof?
@Lh-wq5gc3 күн бұрын
Thanks I was waiting for corrections.
@KFish-bw1om9 күн бұрын
Paul quotes from and/or alludes to all 4 gospels. The same people who insist that John was written later, also concede that the Pauline epistles were written much earlier. It's all just more evidence that the wisdom of this world is foolishness.
@ogmakefirefiregood9 күн бұрын
Alex is a brilliant scoffer. How silly he must look in God's eyes.
@denaz50009 күн бұрын
what a weird comment, you assume to know what God thinks, did you forget we are all equal in gods eyes.
@mrmcface7139 күн бұрын
We are all equally silly in the eyes of God. God's intelligence is infinite, and ours is. No finite level of intelligence is closer to infinity than another finite amount
@bonnie43uk9 күн бұрын
@@mrmcface713 do you think the Bible could be improved in terms of giving moral advice?
@MrSeedi769 күн бұрын
@@bonnie43uktry to come up with something "improving" the sermon on the mount.
@SilentSzZ9 күн бұрын
@@mrmcface713The truth is, you have absolutely no idea what God’s intelligence is, or how we’re perceived in his eyes, yet you claim to know anyway.
@jakegreen50819 күн бұрын
Paul's experience of seeing a light and hearing a voice isn't seeing a resurrected Jesus in the flesh. Acts 9:8 Paul's eyes are *closed* during the whole event, hence when he *opens* his eyes he's blind.
@marcreyes74746 күн бұрын
Alex O’Connor was definitely the kid who raced to be the first to say “tomorrow’s Saturday!” every time the teacher accidentally said “see you tomorrow” on Friday.
@JaniceThompson2286 күн бұрын
Alex need not worry about Christianity, but about Islam, which is growing fast in his nation.
@MusculusPulveri9 күн бұрын
Commenting for the algorithm. God bless you Dr. Ortlund!