TT2: recap, examine, and predict.

[@MileHighGrowler]

This breakdown was amazing. Speculation, yes, but speculation based on actual engineering and ride knowledge. Definitely why I keep coming back to learn!

[@IRDeady]

Thank you, it's super refreshing to hear sober, educated information without launching into accusations and condemnations. Somehow it seems like this narrative has built up that cedar flags is out here not understanding their own industry and just waiting to blacklist any company who crosses them. People seem to focus more on that than on things that we are actually able to get insight into. Hopefully your approach catches on.

[@ajhummel9187]

My best guess is that Zamperla tried to retrofit their existing Lightning design onto Top Thrill rather than designing a new train from the ground up and it simply wasn't a close enough match to the design specs of the original trains to perform in a satisfactory manner. I think you're probably right about the heartlining being the root cause of the problems, mainly because that likely raised the center of gravity and induced quite a bit of unanticipated torsion stresses during the twisting maneuvers of the attraction. A friend of mine who rode ThunderVolt last month said it was way whippier and more intense than the similarly sized Matugani, which could definitely be caused by the higher heartline of these trains, and with reports of Top Thrill feeling way more intense in the twists it's definitely a solid theory. I personally don't expect any track replacement (unless the trains caused damage) as the problems should be able to be resolved with new trains, but I do expect we're going to see a significantly altered train design next year that's far closer to the Maverick-era Intamin trains than the Velocicoaster-esque ones the current Lightning trains mimic.

[@roberttore3442]

I agree re: train revisions. The Intamin trains were heavy and low-profile. They weren't going to get whipped around. Seeing all the issues Zamperla has had on this ride makes me appreciate Intamin that much more. Intamin had to start from scratch and pretty much nailed it on their first version in 2003.Yeah, they had to ditch the Dragster props in the back and then bury the launch cable but other than that, Intamin got it right. Zamperla is having troubles walking in Intamin's shoes for the path Intamin created.

[@GhosterCoasters]

Going off the spiral drop i felt that movement big time on my body

[@tannercurtis1836]

Maybe I'm a lone wolf, but im rooting for Zamperla here because if they nail this then it will pave the way for some pretty incredible rides in the future.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@tannercurtis1836 same. Wolf pack

[@sharkheadism]

I think they'll get it on the next try. The doomer mindset is a guaranteed method to be unsatisfied with anything.

[@DynamicDaddio]

Agree. Intamin got their start somewhere. It’s only fair that Zamperla be given the same opportunity.

[@guitarmansg499]

@@DynamicDaddio opportunity granted and failed massively LOL

[@reiemg]

The other good part of replacing that top hat is that it's the only old track on the whole ride so it should extend the life span of the ride along with making it smoother.

[@jrtiura]

They retrofitted the launch section so that's old track too

[@Cythrox]

No dude that whip is so fun 😭😭

[@reiemg]

@@Cythrox i know it is but like he's making a good point with what your body has to do to recover from it

[@gorillaboy74]

Based on the videos of the riders I’ve seen that ejector airtime looked insane lol

[@reiemg]

@@gorillaboy74 it was. Like arguably the strongest in the entire park. It was to the point where I got off and my legs actually hurt. The ride is no joke

[@michaelfoland2007]

I just found your channel recently. I love the amazing information and scientific details :) Keep it up! Be blessed!

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@michaelfoland2007 welcome! And thank you.

[@JessNovak-ox9dk]

OUTSTANDING analysis, always well thought out and presented. Thanks for sharing your expertise and experience !

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@JessNovak-ox9dk thanks

[@happycoasterdad]

Great video, thank you Ryan!. We love your channel and always watch!

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@happycoasterdad thanks!

[@coasternut2022]

Great explanation Ryan. The people that I've spoken with that have ridden it said those "spirals' were the most intense and most fun part of it. Sounds like from your description, they need to neuter it! Too bad...

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@coasternut2022 if I’m right I hope they find a happy medium between the two.

[@srellessemaj]

The intro 😂 keep up the great work!

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@srellessemaj thanks. Wondering if people would get it.

[@Colaholiker]

@@ryantheridemechanic I think at least those who are English native speakers or close to it should get it. The saying doesn't work in every language. In German, my native language, it would not work.... (I still got it though)

[@richardlee1092]

Love your elephant in the room reference. 👍🏻😂

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@richardlee1092 glad you got it!

[@rmasterstudios]

As someone who rode it back row right seat… that spiral downward is one of the two times I’ve ever genuinely felt unsafe on a ride.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@rmasterstudios not a great feeling.

[@rmasterstudios]

@@ryantheridemechanic it was awesome though. I knew I wouldn’t fly out but that is the strongest airtime I’ve experienced combined with the most laterals I think I’ve ever experienced. It felt like I was in a tornado.

[@damonappel]

​@@rmasterstudiosI'm guessing that CF might have also had a concern that people *could* "fly out" because the jostling was so extreme.

[@Amerigo3356]

The first POV I watched of TT2 I thought to myself wow the center of gravity is pretty high on those new lighting trains compared to the Intamim trains . Makes too much sense why they are having problems with the ride Especially on the turns like you said.

[@rei0]

I definitely felt like I got a lot closer view of those supports coming down that tower than I expected.

[@jschmidt272]

Another awesome video...thanks for sharing your thoughts and the elephant! Looking forward to the next TT2 video!

[@JSXSProductions]

I'm only a couple minutes into this video, but with my limited knowledge from building stuff for my Jeep, and from the videos I've seen and comments from people who rode TT2, my guess has always been that Zamperla underestimated how much of a rattle the trains would have and didn't factor that in enough while engineering the trains. Aluminum has a tendency to tear compared to steel which tends to bend. So I'm thinking that the extra stress on the trains from the rattling is starting to cause the aluminum on certain parts of the train's chassis to degrade faster than expected. They might be nervous that this (hypothetical) faster wear could end up having a part of the chassis tear off ...which is why TTD shut down in the first place. The channel whistlindiesel recently put out a video putting a Cybertruck (which has an aluminum frame) through a series of silly but destructive "durability tests". At one point while they were using it to pull out a stuck F-150, the frame of the Cybertruck SNAPPED as the bumper/tow hitch tore it in two. Commenters defending the Cybertruck said it only broke because they had hit that part of the frame on an obstacle earlier in the video. So he responded with a video where they took that F-150 (which has a traditional steel frame) and dropped it on the same obstacle 100 times... and the frame just bent.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@JSXSProductions so it’s been pointed out that billet is generally a composite of materials. Much stronger than aluminum but not as heavy as steel. So can’t put it all in but the aluminum but call it an alloy that we don’t know what it is. But soft aluminum (I’m told) is the wrong way to think about it.

[@Shredxcam22]

Yield to tensile strength. Aluminum is a blanket term for aluminum and it's alloys just like steel. Steel can range from as low at 40ksi to over 100ksi. Alloys, heat treat, cold/hot rolled and so on can make a world of difference. But aluminum behaves wqute differently

[@Mforcebob]

Thank you for your insight / thoughts.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@Mforcebob your welcome

[@cmlaporte]

Thanks for this, great to hear your thoughts. I’m left thinking how were they so off the first time? How could these very important calculations have been ignored in the original attempt? Seems weird that they could have even opened the ride in a way.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@cmlaporte well look at what they went on. It took 50+ years of industry to get the first intamin ride working. So I don’t think they got one thing wrong, just a hand full of slightly off thing adding up.

[@LTCoasters]

It's nice to see you finally addressed the elephant in the room with your own flair and humor. Haha!

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@LTCoasters thanks

[@knatt5300]

Wouldn't it make more sense to lower the profile of the lightning train versus redoing a top hat?

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@knatt5300 it they could. Sure.

[@JakeNation4]

@@ryantheridemechanicI think this is the solution, not only because it would resolve the heart line and left-right acceleration shift issue, but also because it could resolve the Lightning trains being retrofitted on other Intamin coasters issue.

[@damonappel]

That SOUNDS really simple to do...but I'd bet there were YEARS and countless man-hours invested in the existing Lightning Train design. Now, they have to design (essentially) a new train in a handful of months and thoroughly test it with a decisive confidence level that TT2 will open in May 2025 and not shut down for at least 4 months.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@damonappel it does sound like a plan is in motion. Just couldn’t finish it quickly. So 2025 is the next window to hit.

[@techpappee]

Everything you said makes sense. I said I thought the heart line may too high. You sat down low in the Intamin trains but lightning trains are almost stadium style. It was a guess of course. It seems as if Zamperla should have caught these issues before opening the ride. As long as it gets fixed properly I’ll be happy. Ready to go next summer 🤞.

[@LyndsieDances]

They let you know if the heartline is too high in rollercoaster tycoon 3. Maybe they should have put the new trains into that program

[@maxtronomia]

Are people seated at the same height on the zamperla's trains as they were into the intamin ones? If the trains are even a bit higher, that would be felt quite a bit by riders as the track was heartlined with intamin's trains in mind. It could explain why the hunting on the track is more noticeable in some areas. Edit : Just saw this was addressed in the video

[@thesteveterryproject9611]

Yeah man you were spot on

[@mikewalker4950]

TTD didn't have the whip. You were perfectly centered in the sprial. On TT2 the lateral whip, especially in the back row was insane, like as in the craziest whip I've ever felt. One ride I went hands up the whole time and it was so crazy I flung into the seat beside me. I loved it, but I'm sure your average Joe wouldn't. It is seriously a ride that you needed to hold on for, specifically during the 270 spiral.

[@LTCoasters]

I loved the whole top hat and down the other side. Once you knew to expect that whip on the back left you could mitigate it a little by pushing your outer thighs into the sides of the seat giving you more stability. By slightly changing your center of gravity, interesting.

[@maxtronomia]

@@LTCoasters You can't just expect regular guests, first timers/non-coaster guests to have even an idea of what's going on, and expect them to stand still and counterract the whips. From the onride seen in the video, it's way too much for a ride of this magnitude. Especially if it was actually heartlined (or close to) in the original version of the ride.

[@LTCoasters]

@MaxLaMenace You are correct that's why I said once you knew to expect that whip. It took me about 7x to get that idea and properly execute it. I know that ride will have to be tamed down somehow for the sake of the guests and the longevity of the coaster. It was so much fun, though like that.

[@wawawis]

I've said this a couple of times elsewhere over the summer. Nobody seems to be recognizing that Zamperla apparently got their new spike right. That is an overlooked part of the battle. What I'm trying to highlight is they built a 420' tower from scratch and it has no known flaws as of now. If they don't occur a few years from now than that could be considered a success on the first try!

[@guitarmansg499]

Because half of a solution complete solution is an incomplete solution--That my friend is why nobody cares that they only did half of what they promised...LOL

[@CritterCrossingFam]

Ooh this makes so much sense per the restraints being really open, and the human body increasing the sway! Yeah, that last row of TT2 was super shaky … hope to ride it again someday …!

[@CritterCrossingFam]

And yes, it really was violent on the way over the top hat. I was at the park the entire weekend when it had been open, and then closed that weekend. It was running way slower on its final day, at least from a ground perspective. I was literally holding on for dear life and yelling at my kid next to me to hold on 😂

[@SamWitney]

Great video Ryan, my thought on this is Cedar Flags would know this ride is no easy feat. People talking about budget, I highly doubt that's an issue for this coaster. Probably Cedar Point told Zamperla, just do what you got to. They didn't just give it to Zamperla hoping for the best. They know this coaster was getting to end of life and had to be re-imagined. That's why they gave it to Zamperla. They said here you go, let's see what you can do with this thing. I agree with you that Cedar Flags would be like, do whatever you have to do to get this thing up and running for 2025 season. If it's down for a whole season again, then things are going to get tough for Zamperla.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@SamWitney yea if they can’t open in 2025 I consider the project scrapped. Then a lawsuit for some amount of funds back then the question of scrap or save with the rest of the structure.

[@christiwright3604]

Haha 😂 00:30 love this detailed response. I was wondering how well the previous Intamin track would work with the new Zamperla lighting trains. I think Zamperla and Cedar Fair were hopeful they could keep it fairly affordable and reuse track. I know you’re not a predictor; however I think you’re probably right!

[@enfynet]

Not sure why they didn't use the original trains to design the new trains

[@christiwright3604]

@@enfynet I’m not sure 🤔 that would be something interesting to know. Maybe the original trains couldn’t withstand the forces. Glad they’re revising it now.edited to say I read it wrong. I thought you meant why didn’t they use the older trains.

[@enfynet]

@@christiwright3604 I mean they could have used them as a guide for the new trains, too

[@christiwright3604]

@@enfynet maybe 🤔 I don’t enough about it to comment on it honestly. I am not in the industry. I just love coasters and learning more about how they work.

[@batshtcrazy5293]

I'm thinking that if Intamin had been involved in redoing their mistake, NONE of this would be happening. Yeah, they've come a long way since they first came up with this ridiculous idea. And they could have likely figured it out a lot quicker and more reliably. But hey, too late now. Hopefully Zamperla will learn from this and find a way to fix it. Because I highly doubt Cedar Point will.

[@robertstephens5185]

This definitely makes sense, and it was a concern of mine with the higher center of gravity and heartline changes with the new train. The aluminum chassis being as light as it is flexing makes even more sense along with the vertical supports moving. I wonder too if in the straight sections could get diagonal supports added as well.

[@rolandmorrison8352]

Excellent video...thank you ‼️

[@timk987]

I fear, from the way you explained the forces during the ride, that they may think adding a vest style restraint might mitigate some of the back and forth slop from the upper body. With all the mechanics for the restraints in the seat backs (10:26), there is, without doubt, much more weight higher off the track. Any hope they would consider a t-bar or u-bar restraint to lower those mechanics closer to the trains floor?

[@jayducharme]

Fascinating analysis! Thanks.

[@crooked-halo]

This great video is fascinating as it reminds me of the ongoing problem with American Triple Loop. Even without shoulder restraints this formerly great coaster is not enjoyable. When you described the hunting of the car on Top Thrill 2 I was like; "that's _exactly_ what American Triple Loop is doing!" I've never liked Top Thrill or Kingda Ka so have little to contribute here. When the lowest bidder, Zamperla, was hired to do a job they've never done, many predicted further issues. But I do love Drier Looping/American Triple Loop as it rode in the 80s. I'm going to email you, hopefully use your knowledge & experience, because I think I've figured out it's simple problem, which looks similar to Top Thrill 2.

[@paulbrownjr8676]

Just a thought. Would it help to simply add trim breaks on top of the top hat prior to the dive back down? Slowing the train a bit more.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@paulbrownjr8676 could. But not fixing the root problem (if I’m right) would hurt later on in Zamperlas coaster life.

[@fredreubens89]

with any modifactions that are made will this be at Zamperlas expense or split between them and the park. And will Zamperla be liable for some sort of reimbursement to the park for the losses incured for the ride not running for such a long time.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@fredreubens89 I’m sure some compensation is being worked out. Weather it’s money off the top or an extra flat ride or two.

[@N0rthernMonkey]

@ryantheridemechanic Did you notice they have had to cut a slice out of one of the tower supports on the way back down (see your picture in picture at 23:33). Just shows how much taller these trains are, as they obviously didn't have the clearance to be safe anymore! The whole thing just seems like such an epic fail from the engineers!

[@sharkheadism]

Lol that's interesting

[@garywillis7253]

Another great video..I commented on another video you did and we both agreed a few months ago they were probably going to redesign the trains

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@garywillis7253 still the best guess!

[@drdremd]

I can’t believe you don’t have any update on Top Thrill II’s air gate situation.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@drdremd nope.

[@LegendForsaken]

Well i heard from a friend of a friend's uncle twice removed that the air gates are fine and that you definitely shouldn't look into them or anything

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@LegendForsaken 👍

[@LTCoasters]

😂😂 guys! That's about what this whole thing has felt like.

[@SpeedZone420]

what happened with the air gates? i never had any issue with them

[@brandonpapagiorgiofoley1779]

what do you think about the steel curtain at kennywood

[@dadude1425]

Not gonna lie, that intro got me pretty excited for videos to come

[@DougYeager-i8b]

Very interesting video. Having been in the biz for 9 years here’s my opinion on the situation. I think that the company should be honest and explain to the ride enthusiasts what is really going on. I was trained myself to spread the Disney lies about when rides broke down. Though I did manage to tell the truth. I consider myself a “Donald” not a “Mickey”. Personally I’m not a ride enthusiast and I think these people should get a grip. The reason is simply they have money to burn and will indeed be back, regardless. However as a Cast Member and a trainer I did teach my folks to lend a sympathetic ear to guests when explaining a ride down time. There are a huge number of people who scrape and save for a one time experience and that is who I feel the most for. Also I have noticed this year that a lot of parks are experiencing technical difficulties. Any thoughts? Again a great video. Keep those Park Operations honest Mr. R.M.! 😂🐘

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@DougYeager-i8b yes o think we are still feeling the lasting repercussions of Covid shut downs where business were lost and material still is not up to speed yet. Places where a simple hot water pump was on the shelf and not is on order and will arrive in 9 weeks!! Ridiculous. And yes this year seems to be very rough. I’m sure low crowds are fueling the pennypinching, which is also causing more downtime.

[@colinf2316]

Curious if this will cause any issues with ThunderVolt at PNE Playland. Maybe not because it's much slower and shorter?

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@colinf2316 less intensity wouldn’t be a problem I feel.

[@joesmith6972]

So the re-imaging of the re-imaging will make the ride even less intense. Wonderful.

[@thenorthboundmaiden8418]

Can you make a video about purchase requisitions/PO's for ride parts and stuff. I learnt about this on my internship at my home park (albeit for f&b) and it really sparked an interest in procurement.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@thenorthboundmaiden8418 that’s an odd request but interesting. Can you elaborate on that a bit. Each parks purchasing prices varies widely.

[@thenorthboundmaiden8418]

@@ryantheridemechanic like a video about the purchasing process

[@aarontaylor7750]

Really good analysis! Bravo

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@aarontaylor7750 thanks.

[@Shredxcam22]

The lsm stators require a tight tolerance and I wonder if there is to much flex causing collisions/ wear on them.

[@dylanhansen1626]

interesting the top hat and wheels are the speculative issues here. I was lucky enough to ride it and I don’t know if anyone else has mentioned this but…. If kinda felt like the train was “skipping” while going over the top hat. Basically it kinda felt like the cars on the train were too long for the radius it was navigating between each wheel assembly.

[@dylanhansen1626]

Oh and I can co-sign, it does jostle quite a bit. First launch is meh but the rest of the ride minus the shake was awesome imo

[@IAmAnonymyz]

Sounds like Cedar Flags needs a Six Point gameplan

[@Jondoe18702]

This was a great video thanks 🙏

[@alexlail7481]

What do think is the likelihood that they could accidentally make things too stiff and induce cracking in the future, I realize that may be out there as a danger but it has been known to happen for other things.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@alexlail7481 not sure. Typically too stiff is not an issue.

[@dueksenyo]

Such a good video! I'm nowhere close to an engineer but love to learn how things work. A thought that popped into my head regards the water dummies. Do you think the water dummies they test with give the same forces that a rider typically would on this specific scenario, especially with the upper body "thrashing" around (I feel that's hard to recreate)? Or how do you think they'd get an accurate read on this variable? Or does this variable I think would matter not matter that much? 😅 Will be tuning in to all the content man thanks for the videos!

[@Novakiller]

If they switched to LIM, could they get the train back lower closer to the track. Are the tolerances for clearance the same on LSM versus LIM?

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@Novakiller the LIM are thinner but not shorter. And the side to side tolerance is 300% more precise?

[@Novakiller]

@@ryantheridemechanic thanks!

[@Zerobar78.]

I rode TT2 twice the day before it closed, loved it but the others are correct about the turns whipping you almost violently as the trains went over the top hat a LOT faster than before, it really lifted you out of your seat cresting the top.

[@iamsmeltzer]

Been waiting on this video. Thanks for sharing your insights and perspective. Now the big question for thoosies, if the track does end up changing is this a new coaster credit?

[@LyndsieDances]

The imageineers, might have to take the twists out of the track all together. To make it up to the enthusiasts I'd have a real rollback on the first launch

[@amusement420]

Zamperal still markets TT2 as an example for their Lighting Trains on their web site. A bullet point: • Re-Imagined Car Body: The entire chassis is aluminum-milled. This not only allows the vehicle to weigh less; it dramatically reduces the amount of NDT (Non-Destructive Testing) required every off-season. This minimizes the cost of ownership when compared to traditional roller coaster vehicles. Welp lol After listening. Why did they think a train that light, with the largest wheels I've ridden on, at that speed, would not move side-to-side A LOT on a structure like that? Also, you no longer think it's the surface of the wheels? I had no problem with the 90 deg twist to the top and the 270 deg spiral. It was the straightaway from the rear spike to the front then the return track was reeeeally shaky side-to-side. You could tell how much higher you sit when you're on the top hat more than other sections of the track. The video you found of the rider pretty much sums up what it felt like. Except I wasn't smiling much lol The freshly painted white track was bit blinding. The most fun part of TT2 was the switch track. I always wanted to ride Millennium Force's transfer track. And it was nice going over the top hat at long last. But you could reeeeally tell how high it sits above the track with those large wheels up there. I loved the 0-120mph cable launch of TTD. I don't need to go 70 then 120 backwards. More TT2 ride time isn't better. That was whole point of TTD. The restraints and seats gave me a freer feeling. I was stapled into TT2. The seat back feels harder since it goes backwards. It does accommodates more sizes and loads faster. It's too bad they can't have Steel Vengeance's lap restraints. Those are a surprisingly comfortable alternative to OTSR. You really need to mark it on your calendar to go to Cedar Point and ride all the coasters. It's unfortunate you never experienced TTD as it was designed and a rollback. 16:55 with all that being said. I want one of those spirit halloween looking handheld blacklight 3D scanners. It's like a golf range finder. you start pointing it at everything. Just because.

[@dindog22]

people were saying that the left side of the ride was more violent on the way down. love the elephant. you're always so funny

[@poorcomputerman6200]

Would it help if they used more restrictive restraints so that the riders did not move so much?

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@poorcomputerman6200 that’s only about 10% of the overall problem.

[@ramonortiz1327]

Been waiting for this exact video lol

[@nikolaimazurik2347]

Is superman in great America going to make it another year I seen it blow a major fault when I went it would not let people off the ride it was stuck vertical ...one week off from labor day...what would cause it to fault out.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@nikolaimazurik2347 I think it will be fine. A good ride faults about 2-3 times a day on average. Someone’s they have trouble and they go up to 10-15 times a day before the problem is nailed down. A lot of faults stick people right where they are to where they can’t get off quickly. Just normal stuff when your dealing with multiple safety systems monitoring thousands of sensors every millisecond isecond

[@nikolaimazurik2347]

@ryantheridemechanic thanks Ryan

[@lespaulx]

Great video! Question is, how is it possible for Zamperla to underestimate something THAT important as CG position and heartline? Specially for such a ride like TTD! Havent they done any research on Intamins TTD retired trains at least? I don't understand how can this could happen to them, having all the expertise and resources. Personally, from the moment I saw those trains I though "they are way too taller for TTD" (same as Mack trains) but dismissed my own tough as Im not an engineer. 20 years being a coaster enthusiast gives you plenty of idea on why of things...but cant find any reasonable explanation for such a failure of trains rev00

[@Gunstick]

Watching old videos... stiffening up the trains will make them heavier. And is the whole track built to that weight? Especially the new parts. And what is cheaper? Rebuild the track or redesign the trains so the heartline is again at the same position where intamin put it.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@Gunstick I’d imagine redesigning the train would be more cost effective. If I can be made lower (stator Clearance)

[@mikepoe5293]

Why does kingda ka not have any of these issues when it actually runs faster and is taller maybe zamperla should "phone a friend"

[@samnoblitt]

I’m wondering if the fact that the trains are so much lighter than the old ones is causing a problem. Maybe the wind is making it “flop around” more because they aren’t heavy enough to cut through the air properly?

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@samnoblitt I doubt that but any things possible

[@highoctaneadventure]

If they redid the trains with a lower seating position/centre of gravity, would they need to rebuild the top hat?

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@highoctaneadventure depends on low low they could go. Cedar point doesn’t want another year of testing.

[@highoctaneadventure]

@@ryantheridemechanicThanks, makes sense. Love the videos!

[@mikestein1024]

They can just charge more for lockers to pay for the big mike reskin aka top thrill

[@shanedigby]

Hey Ryan when you refer to them potentially widening the turns up and down the top hat, does that mean starting the turn earlier on going up, and finishing the turn later on going down, so its more of a gradual turn, as opposed to what there is now? Awesome video dude.

[@dindog22]

do you think the next gen trains will have smaller road wheels? the lightning trains that first showed up at IAAPA the year before TT2 was announced had much smaller road wheels. I really don't understand the huge wheels when original Dragster had normal sized wheels

[@scottdevine8154]

It great to hear the problems from a mechanic's point of view and not an enthusist. Companies have been closing a lot of the arrow coasters or waiting for parts. What parts could they be waiting for? just curious what would be your take

[@gorillaboy74]

Is it me or is this situation eerily similar to the hypersonic xlc? Ambitious project from a company that never made a coaster like it? riddled with issues from the very beginning? More importantly the wheeels? 👀 the stress at the top hat? 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@SeanBernath]

My new favorite intro.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@SeanBernath ha! Thanks.

[@Zrj19]

dude this speculation is incredible

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@Zrj19 thanks

[@spookidrew4284]

Make the top hat go upside down and call it tt3 please!!!! Great video very insiteful. I rode tt2 3 times and it was the greatest ride ever but the fling over the top hat is real haha

[@coastercrush3635]

What about the lightning trains on the intamin retrofit @ playland?

[@torontocards.3326]

Not pretending to be an expert but they're likely taking much less force than TT2s trains

[@coastercrush3635]

@@torontocards.3326 ryan discussed in the future parks not going with zamperla to retrofit rides

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@coastercrush3635 it really depends on the sheer force of the ride I think.

[@momentumelectricslc]

Could you make a video on how theme parks and the manufacturers of roller coasters monitor these issues? Like how did they know this exact issue was happening and see the potential future of what could happen if they kept it going? Like do they have sensors and monitors everywhere or what exactly is done? I think a video on that would be awesome.

[@anderfrank1]

Cedar Flags, I agree!

[@timk987]

It seems like back in the mid 90's to the mid 2000's, all the innovative coasters went through Stengals engineering firm (Ingenieurbüro Stengel GmbH). Today, it seems all engineering is done in house by the manufacturers themselves. Do you think Cedar Point should consider such an outside engineering firm to lay some fresh eyes on the problem(s) at hand?

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@timk987 typically, insurance company’s at least in the US, highly encourage a 3rd party design inspection to verify the safety factors. But this is more of a very fine control that simple checks wouldn’t catch. (I’m guessing). So you would need another manufacturer to check it. Doubt they would want that or to do that.

[@AllClearandOuttaHere]

just thinking out loud here, but wouldn’t it make more sense to lower the trains to make the heart line closer to that of the original trains instead of re-working the top hat?

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@AllClearandOuttaHere if they can. But stators are high.

[@bleuaqua8102]

Didn't one of the test dummies fly off over the tophat in testing? Your explanation of the science behind the design and analysis of the shutdown is much appreciated!

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@bleuaqua8102 I believe it was something small. Not a dummy. Things have a tendency to come off during testing. One of the reasons most parks do testing when closed.

[@TroubleLightCoasters]

This is very common during testing due to cheapness of the water dummy material

[@williamboyle8918]

The dummie flew out and landed on the Dippin Dots guy

[@NFS305]

@@williamboyle8918droppin dippin dummy?

[@jackschissler255]

What if Zamperla made the trains lower? Closer to what Intamin had, would that solve the problem? I thought the trains were way over the top, to high.

[@dwhitman12341]

So why wouldn't they just add vest restraints to the trains to stop horizonal shifting of the riders? They're not uncomfortable and I don't think they'd take away from the ride experience.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@dwhitman12341 trains still too high up I think.

[@gyme6077]

I have been hearing from a few sources, one being an employee who worked the ride during its opening weekend ( he was off the clock riding Millennium Force with me) that one or more of the top hat supports has major cracks in it. That this is the main reason issue now. I rode it three times and it went over the top hat way too fast. Was hitting the upstop wheels to hard. Almost threw me out the train going down the spiral. The employee that told me, prior to actually telling me said he would never ride it again.

[@williamboyle8918]

I heard the train restraints were made of ramen

[@sumguy8]

I've definitely seen footage of the ascending part of the straight track moving way too much laterally after the 3rd launch.

[@loridelaney4443]

Great content Ryan

[@robertstephens5185]

Makes you wonder if at IAAPA if they will break down what is actually happening and show off the lightning 2.0 train

[@richywiggins3845]

Excellent Video, I am definitely not an expert, but I hope Zamperla didn't think a lighter train with a LSM will work the same as a hydraulic launch with a heavier low center of gravity train, with LSMs having different acceleration curves to hydraulic launch, the forces will be totally different. Ultimately they will probably change everything and it still won't work. I have been in that situation myself doing retro fits to other manufacturers machines, they are probably thinking how did intamin solve this problem.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@richywiggins3845 and that’s a rough one until it’s done. Then at the end sometimes you look back and face palm; that’s why they didn’t do that….

[@jonny-b4954]

6:35 Dude, Iron Gwazi death roll throws me from literally side to side like 45 degrees. To the point I usually whack my buddy with my arms up. That is one downfall of the lapbar and why they actually put vests and OTSR on rides. Keep you from slamming your face forward too.

[@clickonrun]

Great analysis. I have seen other people speculate, and it's the only thing that makes sense.

[@TrueLies23]

The turn on the spike is "air whip time" as I coined it. I don't think the turns on the top hat are that bad. It's like saying a B&M has a rattle, it's just people being whiny. I think we are more likely to parts of the structure, such as the pull up into the tophat and the curve down at the bottom, get modified to support slightly heavier trains. I think they're gonna have to use less aluminum and more steel on the trains and that will lead to strengthening parts of the structure. I think that is the core of the problem and solution. As long as coaster vibrate, aluminum will have a short service life, hence no welds and ease of maintenance(aluminum requires a ton of maintenance). Just my unsolicited(somewhat professional) opinion

[@bone4579]

Wouldn't the train then move more independently / vertically behind the passengers, or i guess that's where the whip comes from ?

[@markm3901]

Looking forward to the new TT3 for 2025 😁

[@jasonkloos6348]

I wouldn't count on it if they are replacing track and structure.

[@emmzu8366]

*2026

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@markm3901 hopefully!

[@Spike-sk7ql]

TT2.5

[@markm3901]

@@jasonkloos6348 if it is 2026 Zamperla's reputation for anything new or big will be flushed away for the next 10 years.

[@thisguy_w0n]

Yay been waiting for this followup, but not all summer long

[@Jondoe18702]

Top top intro ! Lovey

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@Jondoe18702 thanks

[@beatmasterbossy]

The shirt matches the background Consider that in the future

[@MrKillerRC]

What if they remove one car from the train, to cut weight?

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@MrKillerRC I don’t think it’s the weight they are dealing with. I think it’s the height away from the track that’s the problem.

[@spentron1]

I found that twist coming down intense already on TTD, tweaked my back, guess the OTSRs on Ka do something after all. This may not be that much different. One possibility would be to take out the 270 degree twist and put in another 90.

[@mikeyp916]

I don't want to take away the wrong opinion here... but it seems like, if what you're speculating is true, Zamperla designed and made their new trains before they took on this project. Then they put in and won the bid for TT2, thinking they could just put the trains on the old Intamin track and send them 120mph even though no or minimal calculations were done for the new center of gravity & heart line of the riders or the extreme forces of this ride based on the existing track. And now they are realizing afterwards that because of those assumptions, they need to retrack 25-50% of the legacy track to make the trains work with the track? Doesn't it make more sense just to modify the design of the trains to better suit the track, or just get trains from another supplier (Intamin?) I don't understand why they are trying to redesign what was already there when the whole goal of the project was to reuse the existing structure and put a new launch system with new trains. It seems kind of counter intuitive, and looks like if all this is true that Zamperla is taking a big fat L as far as the finances go for this project...

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@mikeyp916 all speculation on my end. But the goal of the project was not to get Top thrill 2 up and running. In my humble opinion, the goal is to market these trains as replacement vehicles for intamin rides and an option for parks to retrofit. I believe 6 fairs sees that and wants in on the ground level. Just my thought.

[@fleedermouse]

@@ryantheridemechanicwas there something wrong with the old trains?

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@fleedermouse I’m guessing so. They haven’t been running sense early this year.

[@mikeyp916]

​@@ryantheridemechanicEven if that was the case, it's still a failure of epic proportions on their end. The trains are completely different, there's no way they would be "plug and play" replacements. There would most definitely have to be some calls made to engineering to make sure those would work considering the wheel carriers and design of the trains themselves do not mimic the original design. Nice to talk shop, looking forward to the next time.

[@ryantheridemechanic]

@@mikeyp916 only thing I have to say there is they can’t get to close to another design or they hit patent/ copyright infringement

[@QBallTech]

Im not a ride mechaninc nor engineer but from what I heard and could gather back as early as July, I had feeling quite a bit of retracking would be needed and would happen this off season. And people doudted me and didn't believe me, but... I told them so.

[@Ardy6]

Ry I love ya bro, at this point with cost time and most importantly reputation, why wouldn't you bring Intamin back as an 2nd adviser? I wouldn't b e surprised:)

[@sharkheadism]

Once the park selected another company to do the overhaul, I imagine Intamin more or less washed their hands of it. _"Not my problem"_

[@Ardy6]

@@sharkheadism I disagree man, these companies work with each other all the time. Companies like Intamin leaders in this industry just dont run buisinesses that way "not my problem"

[@sharkheadism]

@@Ardy6 Such an arrangement would introduce Intamin to more liability than not being involved in the first place, and they'd be working with a direct competitor (Intamin wants to continue selling their parts and trains to CP and other parks, while Zamperla wants to market their product to other parks to buy instead of Intamin's.) From Zamperla's point of view, they wouldn't want the company they're trying to go after to have direct access to their own designs and products. From Intamin's side, their engineers are unfamiliar with Zamperla's equipment and practices, so I'm not certain they could lend much expertise. Once the work began Top Thrill was essentially no longer an Intamin ride and there's no advantage for them to be a part of the project, just drawbacks. TT2 is not their problem anymore.

[@daveyjones144]

Why was it so catastrophic for these lightning trains to be hunting like that but Millenium force hunts like crazy throughout the course and it hasn’t been a problem?

[@samuelzackrisson8865]

cedar flags does sound a lot better than six fairs lol