TTRPGs: 4D Roleplay, playing the "right" way

In this video Matt (creator of Xenoplicity) talks about new terminology for old ideas, the pitfalls of "4D roleplaying", how no single dimension is objectively better than any other, and what are the REAL objectively wrong ways to play at the table.

[@SHONNER]

10:57 Yep. Have to trust your players. I'll make a vid later, so I'm not spamming comments here.

[@yourseatatthetable]

From what I am taking away from how you are talking about your experiences and feel, that you're having a good time; that at some point you have reached a point where you want the deeper immersion experience when you can, but you are still open to simply "play", to enjoy engaging the table and friends and associates that you are sharing the table with.

[@Turglayfopa]

What is 2D role playing I was calling "playing out every moment". Thinking back to when we started playing 5e it was the "planning phase", which could take 15-30 minutes. But after the planning phase was done we felt safe and ready and we could all go in and experience the joy of seeing all that planning go out the window instantly. Still were able to roleplay very confidently because of it. It's as if 1D/2D is there to establish the next few encounters, and 3D/4D is playing off the certainty that all is on the same page at the time. The breaks are including a mini session prep done by the players, and the DM can listen and get an idea of where their mind is going based on what the DM has presented. We play online now and don't rly do this planning phase much anymore.

[@SHONNER]

23:00 True. Fun and entertainment are the same thing.

[@28mmRPG]

Haha... I do the elimination of "you" as a personal challenge to myself. I know I'm hard on myself as I critique myself in my own game. And very true on the 4D, its really not for everyone, but we are making examples and discussions for people to understand if they want to try it for themselves. (there are not very many examples), 4D is a choice we did with a few of our RPG Crusade members, 3D is played quite often with us, and we try to teach other gamers to do 3D. (Stay in character, no Q&A, and we provide the practicing for free)

[@xenoplicityrpg3987]

Brother you and your channel rock. I’ve really enjoyed watching your videos lately.

[@28mmRPG]

@@xenoplicityrpg3987 Thanks Matt, hope to have you on my channel soon, let me know when you are available to talk about your game, Xenoplicity!

[@xenoplicityrpg3987]

@@28mmRPG sounds awesome sir! I’m free this coming up Thursday.

[@28mmRPG]

@@xenoplicityrpg3987 Thurs is unfortunately my late shift with and early shift for Friday morning. I catch the closing of Black Lodge Games livestream. And then zzzz.. Mon and Wed are my most available days.

[@xenoplicityrpg3987]

@@28mmRPG Wednesday what time?

[@sameldji2479]

This is a gr8t video; gr8t synthesis as well as the demonstration.

[@insertnamehere8121]

The problem with the assertion regarding D&d (and similar playstyle) games essentially being "board games", is : 1) In that, whats being stated is that the bulk of the first roleplaying games (heck 50% of more of ttrpgs in general) ' _arent real roleplaying games_ '. That would be akin to redefining what a car is by using a portion of the modern automobile industry as the bar, and then stating that the foundation of car develop (Elektrowagen, Model T, Double Model E, etc) now ' _arent real cars_ ' . They were and are cars, they're the cars that got us to where we are with automobiles. 2) D&d, and similar playstyle games present worldly relevant details (stats, movement, etc) and allow us to act/strategize our actions in the world based on those details, in the only cumbersome way you can replicate all of the information that we would otherwise have and calculate (ex: chasm distance) rapidly were we in the real world. Swinging a sword at another person within the real is a quick process, trying to emulate that with numbers and probability isnt. This doesnt mean it isnt emulating reality, it means its emulating reality at a different pace given the format. 3) If actuality is the bar for defining what is a ' _real roleplaying game_ ', and D&d style games are _disqualified_ through the slow down of (real world) emulation, than by the same standards/logic a player portraying a character AND spawning in game/setting items and people is likewise not ' _roleplaying_ '. An actual person can not fabricate items or people, be that for or against their benefit. You arent accurately portraying a singular person within a world if you at the same time are permitted to use the equivalent of Skyrim console commands. > The bottom line is that its a different playstyle trying to elevate its worth by disqualifying other playstyles as everything from lesser to ' _not real roleplaying_ '.

[@xenoplicityrpg3987]

That’s a long comment to respond to but I’ll try my best. I never said they weren’t TTRPGs. I said they don’t lend themselves to immersive roleplay (3D-4D) by their nature. GM has to setup the board, meaning gameplay pauses every room or scene. And If the game is played with a board and minis then it’s a board game. “I move 3 spaces and attack” is a 2D style which is what these type of TTRPGs promote. I’m not insulting them by calling them what they are, nor did I say that makes them lesser than other games. I even pointed out that fantasy trip is among my favorite games to play. And fundamentally, an old model t is just as much of a car as a new car. A better analogy would be a carriage to an automobile. Both serve the same purpose but have vastly different power methods. A game like FT or d&d 4e rely on minis/grid to operate whereas TOTM games rely on imagination alone. I also thought I made it clear that all styles of roleplay are fine. One isn’t objectively better than any other in my opinion, they are just different. For me 3D is the sweet spot but to each their own.

[@insertnamehere8121]

@@xenoplicityrpg3987 For clarity : None of my initial post was directed at you -- It was general commentary on the topic.

[@28mmRPG]

Smashing video!

[@28mmRPG]

In 4D I never correct the character. I attempt to stay in full narration mode in my own games as a GM... what could happen is that rock shatters into powder as it impacts if I was feeling mean... but in reality, the group of guys I have are great at keeping in context. (You don't get that often) I allow what is movie-plausible, if it's something that would make the audience 'groan' they did it wrong ;)

[@xenoplicityrpg3987]

Touché sir. Me and regular group do 3d-4d and have for decades. We just have never referred to it as such since the term is new to us. I’m just trying to prep folks for the pitfalls that come with it and trying to keep others from being overly judgmental about the subject.

[@EteraRPG]

Rick, would you make a video on that subject? Something that has been on my mind is causing penalties on players due to enviromental or enemy interference such as "poisonous gas fills the room, making breathing difficult". How do you best do that when going full 4D? Is just calling a test and annoucing it's a tad bit more difficult okay, in your opinion?

[@28mmRPG]

@@EteraRPG most of my go-to RPG's have difficulty levels so I just increase the level of difficulty in TRAVELLER 'Routine 6+' becomes 'Average 8+' or 'Difficult 10+' or Cypher: '2(6+)Standard' rises to '3(9+)Demanding'. I use visual callouts on my screen during liveplays to eliminate my vocalizing. Cue-cards can be used at the table in the same way. or if the players already know the names of the levels you can say: the scaling of the walls will be 'Demanding'

[@yourseatatthetable]

Crazy weirdos can be fun, too. But tone plays its part, as does making an effort to be respectful of your host and the other players. Personally, I agree that cosplaying at a session, unless its the groups gig, is weird. But I also srand by my belief that most gaming weirdos are good people with quirks. My opinion of course. That all said, Rick's right. Great video.

[@yourseatatthetable]

I keep thinking of a fellow named Rob. I call him hat guy, because he's almost always wearing a hat that fits his character.

[@SHONNER]

23:20 It's not a lot of people complaining about using "you" (2nd-person). It's more like only 3 or 4 people out of 8 billion.

[@xenoplicityrpg3987]

Maybe I’ve just been watching a lot of your videos lately. lol. Actually, I think it was a video with Rick and the guys critiquing themselves and they were getting on themselves about doing it. They all have a lot more subscribers than me so I’m assuming it’s a growing trend.

[@SHONNER]

@@xenoplicityrpg3987 It grows about 4 to 5 people a year if lucky. At least on KZbin.

[@xenoplicityrpg3987]

@@SHONNER I get that. FYI, I really enjoy your content and agree with you a lot. I look forward to doing a live stream with you sometime. I made this video because I saw folks at LOM get on Rick about his 4D vids, then Rick did a response video to Max, Max did one back, and other channels have been weighing in on 4D too. I just wanted to share my thoughts on it and the challenges I’ve experienced with it in the past.

[@SHONNER]

@@xenoplicityrpg3987 About LoM... I do not recommend ever watching their CoC streamed games.

[@insertnamehere8121]

Subconsciously using descriptors for your character that make it clear you still understand the distinction between your actual self and the fictional personality you're portraying, is the healthy display of someones reality synchronization. Nowhere within the natural world is perception separation from actuality considered a ' _good quality_ '.

[@xenoplicityrpg3987]

In today’s world, I’m not so sure about that lol.

[@FiLtheThriL]

Animals don't have imagination. Hot take.

[@insertnamehere8121]

@@FiLtheThriL 1) Are you an animal Fil, or are we going with some kind of ancient alien hypothesis? 2) Being where & who you are in actuality is a biologically universal success quality. Its probably the foundation of biological success. Nowhere is it not : Keep reaching though.

[@Ritten_Lies]

Vet your players and you can eliminate most of your examples of confusion about how the fiction can get too far out of hand. Vetting ingredient: Trust. Does it or would it matter that the ship rooms are off? Most likely not. If everyone is of like-mind, the outcome should be understandable. Just thoughts.

[@xenoplicityrpg3987]

I get that. Personally, I think things like a ship layout should be provided by GM and then players can narrate minor details within that skeleton as they wish. I’m not against 4D, but it just comes with its own challenges. But you’re right, every issue I brought up has a solution. It’s totally doable.

[@roon-sy8fz]

I disagree about the larping thing being a hard line, I think that's really more up to personal taste and comfort. If someone is being cringe making people uncomfortable that's bad but if everyone is on the same page I see some soft larp as being similar to having themed dice bags or using mugs instead of plastic cups. It can just help set the mood to have aesthetic cues. Plus a lot of ttrpg players are already those weird nerd kids who wore harry potter house merch to school, so larp outfits are barely outside of their normal wardrobe. A lot of games on youtube use it as marketing though, emulating critical role.

[@xenoplicityrpg3987]

I’m curious, what would qualify as soft larp?

[@SHONNER]

@@xenoplicityrpg3987 Probably just a hat, or an eye patch. Maybe a wig. Not the full-on outfit.

[@xenoplicityrpg3987]

@@SHONNER okay okay I would tolerate that. But if a guy shows up with a full pirate costume, I’m gonna lose it.😂

[@SHONNER]

@@xenoplicityrpg3987 Just don't show up with your Giantlands RPG while wearing a mask to get more XP.

[@DjDreamcastle]

Been DMing for 16 years, and I've never had a player show up in costume, but I actually love the idea of someone getting that far into character. I've witnessed many years of low level immersion, and have always had fun as long as the boys are getting together, chucking dice, and cracking jokes. However, taking things to the next level of immersion is fun too, and as long as everyone is comfortable with costumes, then have at it! We already have props for certain things, but it never leaves the game table to become full on theater. It's still the same game.

[@yourseatatthetable]

Old idea repackaged with new titles

[@SHONNER]

8:24 Not sure why the GM would halt that. Unless the player can only look for a rock and pick one up at that moment. And then needs to wait for another turn to throw it at something.

[@SHONNER]

Roleplay does help if the game isn't 1st-gen adventure boardgaming like D&D.

[@insertnamehere8121]

If actuality is the bar for defining what is a ' real roleplaying game ', and D&d style games are disqualified through the slow down of (real world) emulation, than by the same standards/logic a player portraying a character AND spawning in game/setting items and people is likewise not ' roleplaying '. You arent accurately portraying a singular person within a world if you at the same time are permitted to use the equivalent of Skyrim console commands.

[@SHONNER]

@@insertnamehere8121 You have no idea how or why D&D is 1st-gen.

[@insertnamehere8121]

@@SHONNER I have no idea ? You cant even maintain narrative coherency regarding your own belief. The presence of actuality simulating interference through word use (my character does x), sentences (no questions!) and game mechanics makes those systems, players and sessions ' _not real roleplaying_ ', but the ability to spawn things in world to serve your personal (out of game) narrative desires (beneficial or otherwise) is. In short, only actuality simulation violating tools that you like are permitted within ' _real roleplaying_ '.

[@SHONNER]

@@insertnamehere8121 Learn to roleplay.

[@insertnamehere8121]

@@SHONNER Learn to make an argument. 👹Stop being a _1d_ thinker & communicator 👹