Tube Lab

I goofed up my section on DMM. Direct metal mastering was developed by Telefunken and later on TELDEC (Telefunken + Decca) released many DMM vinyl records.
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[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

I used to listen to Kind of Blue on vinyl - in fact it was my mom's FAVORITE album in university. 1959.

[@Nephilim-81]

My goodness those 1950 Sylvania GTA’s look so darn good. Hope to have a pair someday soon.

[@tubelab194]

Yes and they sound really good, with a warm rich midrange and excellent detail, they are a treasure indeed. When you first hear them it's like being inside the best 1950's jazz recording - that's their sound - and when you remember all those great jazz, Classical and popular records were recorded with tube mic's, tube consoles, tube tape recorders, you realize why - that's their sound!

[@Nephilim-81]

@@tubelab194 they’ll be a time when I get another pair of Sylvania GTA’s. For now though, I’m really enjoying the 7N7 loctals I got from you. Those are pretty sharp. Happy with the detail presentation and do well with bass speed and texture.

[@whome8192]

David Brubeck, Time Out, from a modern pressing by analogue productions and quality sound recordings floored me. Sounds better on my system than via digital streaming. Both sound amazing. I am just using a $300 turntable with stock $40 cartridge. But using home built tube phone stage and heavily modified Willsenton R8 with E34L tubes. The drum solo in the middle reminds me of hearing drums, like on stage in an un amplified, natural setting. Amazing. From the snare to the cymbals, to the mallet on the bass drum. Such amazing dynamics. Just bought my first record player this summer, did not realize they could sound so good as only had very low grade ones growing up. Always like recordings from late 50’s to mid 60s. ADRM cds from this era of recordings always sounded great…even with residual tape hiss.

[@acsamuels3396]

Great video! Very informative. Thanks guys keep up the excellent work. 👍

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

I have a quite large collection of DMM records , they are indeed amazing .... Telarc = Telefunken ! Those records need a decent playback system ....

[@NickP333]

Hey Frank. Another well said comment. I’ve also got a large amount of DMM records. They seem to have a clarity and directness to their sound. 🎶😊

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

You couldn't not take it anymore ...........well you're NOT ALONE ! Very nice review and sharing facts ....people growing up only listening to digital reproduce formats of music mzy have problems with this because their brains were never thaugt natural analog music ........it like having no clue or no reference of what raw milk tasts like, just as well as the taste of vegetables in a natural soil or eggs from chickens running free in nature or the garden.

[@NickP333]

Perfectly said, Frank. 100% 👍🎶

[@carlespy7470]

I listen to a mixture of analog and digital sources and it’s causing me to ask why vinyl is still hanging on. My special half-speed pressings, upon every playing, pass through a ritual of careful handling and cleaning but produce music accented by pops and clicks and surface noise. And after only 15 minutes or so, I have to get up and change sides. On the other hand, I’ve been listening to my streaming service and other digital sources that sound really good to me without that vinyl ritual. In view of the big bucks being asked these days for a high-end vinyl reproduction chain, it's hard to understand the source of vinyl’s persistence. About a hundred years ago, Edison provided the nail and groove that served us well for the 20th century plus. I continue to be impressed with the engineering sophistication and precision of the hugely expensive turntables I've seen recently reviewed. I compare them to some very expensive watches. They are equally impressive but my $100 Casio keeps better time. Technology has now provided us with the next steps and an ongoing pathway for improvement in audio excellence: high quality reproduction, convenience, accessibility and transmissability. But maybe some of us just like the vinyl ritual and the pops and clicks that come with it, right?

[@tubelab194]

Haha, that's funny! Well first off most 1/2 speed masters suck, when you cut the lacquer that way you introduce all kinds of problems that don't exist when you do it in real time. I agree records can be noisy, the solution is a proper cleaning protocol. And interestingly properly cleaned records have improved sonics - particularly the definition is noticeably better. But what I was talking about wasn't what format is more convenient or quieter, but what sounds better. And the best sounding mass produced format is all analogue vinyl records (AAA). If you're only interested in convenience or cost, digital streaming is the way to go. But if you want to listen to the best sounding music, vinyl is significantly better sonically.

[@carlespy7470]

I guess this proves that high-end is in the ear of the beholder. You said, "if you want to listen to the best sounding music, vinyl is significantly better sonically." Anthony Cordesman stated in The Absolute Sound (February, 2024) that, "...the best highest-resolution PCM, DSD, and DSD/SACD discs and streaming now outperform the best-sounding LPs that I've heard." Maybe we're splitting hairs but if the sonic differences are currently down to nuance, digital with its upward developmental/evolutionary trajectory versus the flattening trajectory of the hugely pricey, nail-dragging phono chain has to, in my opinion, win all bets on its long-term viability, sonically speaking.

[@nyquist5190]

Truth is, when it comes to reproducing the source signal as accurately as possible, digital killed vinyl more then forty years ago when cd arrived.

[@mddawson1]

Could the preference for analogue just be a result of what we are use to? Or could it be the reduced dynamics, increased noise and wow/flutter of tape and vinyl hides recording deficiencies exposed in the digital release? Or perhaps the greater dynamics and lower noise of digital recordings exposes flaws in our playback equipment/speakers?

[@el_arte]

That’s my guess. The brain is very good at identifying characteristics that recall pleasant feelings.

[@tubelab194]

Nope, we listen to quality music every day on a quality digital and vinyl system and the quality vinyl system always blows away the digital system. We do this professionally and for the love of the music and our life would be a lot easier if we could just use the digital system, it's way more convenient, but it just doesn't sound as good. I've had the same experience with my friend's high end system, in blind A/B testing I can always pick out the digital version and it always sounds inferior to the vinyl version. But remember we're only talking about all analogue recordings "AAA". Original digital recordings sound better if kept in the digital domain with only a few exceptions, like those first generation digital records I talked about.

[@mddawson1]

@@tubelab194 I always think back to the early days of CD. One of the LPs I replaced with a CD had a loud 'click' in one track. For years after when I played the CD, I kept anticipating that 'click' and felt it strange it wasn't there, as if something more was missing. I thought this showed how our minds can be conditioned with certain expectations that can result in a negative attitude when they aren't met.

[@rasmusosjordbruland3581]

Hi guys, I'm interested to know what DAC's you have in your system?

[@tubelab194]

Good question! Currently in system Sabre ES9038Q2M, 32/384pcm and DSD256 natively. Also recently in system Protodac 8 Philips tda1387 in parallel Also A&K Kann Cube which uses similar Sabre DAC ES9038pro x2 Also my friend's high end system has 2 DACs to choose from And I'm currently working on a prototype dac that uses an early Philips chip and as well a ladder DAC. In both reference systems I find the sonics of all the above DACs to be very similar, with the Protodac being the best sonically, but it's restricted to 16 bits, it can play higher bit rates, but drops the extra bits.

[@paulb4661]

Same with CRTs- lots of distortion, especially around the corners, poor contrast ratio and colour rendering, but the picture looks better than modern OLEDs, especially with TV studio recordings from the era.

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

Still have a 100HZ Panasonic, when ever it plays visitors make comments being quite astonihed by the beauty and natural quality of the images...I smile ...

[@paulb4661]

@@frankgeeraerts6243 Eagerly waiting for another sensible revival, that of 14" high resolution computer monitors in unforgettable green hue.

[@mddawson1]

I think a more appropriate analogy would be to compare VHS to DVD/BD. I know which format I prefer.

[@paulb4661]

@@mddawson1 Well, the recent Mo-Fi "scandal" has demonstrated to the fullest extent the ability of Golden Eared Pros to notice straightaway their recordings were converted to DSD prior to going to press.

[@Nephilim-81]

The problem with the CD medium (Digital) even though it is a technically superior medium on just about every front, is that it is abused. It made to sound, harsh, brittle and lifeless in the hands of the wrong people namely mixing and mastering engineers. That is the real shame of it all. This should not be a vinyl verses digital discussion, but the abuse of such mediums has made us think this way. 😮

[@tubelab194]

Yes absolutely true, most cd / digital music is poorly mixed / mastered. But and this is a big BUT when you compare a quality analogue recording to a quality digital recording (properly mastered), the analogue recording is superior sonically. Now I didn't say technically superior, because it's not in any way but the most important thing which is how it sounds. I was recently watching Bernie Grundman talk about the work they do remastering digital files and he said the vast majority of mastering work is done on a digital work desk. And at his mastering company they drop the digital file onto their custom analogue board for most of the mastering work and then back to digital. He says this way the digital mastering always sounds better.

[@Nephilim-81]

@@tubelab194 well said. I really do have an understanding of your point of view.

[@el_arte]

Sorry, guys, no. Recording and mastering decide quality. I have digital transfers of the TBM records and they sound indistinguishable from the vinyl records. Modern recording, mixing and mastering prioritize loudness by using compression. That’s the problem. But you can produce excellent CDs if you do it right. And ADCs and DACs have reached a point where they are transparent.

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

Yes there are good quality digital recordings ............but you missed the message , digital processing of music does not make analog BETTER ..........POINT! Maybe you or your system does not reveal the difference ....you are entiteld to your opinion and beliefs but that does not changes facts. Growing up with digital may be the reason not to be sensitive to nature being analog....just like the same happens with video and digital imaging ... it's like listening to a violin playing at my table ....and telling the musician that when he shouild be recorded and digital processed that his music will sound better connecting to the emotions percieved by my soul.. Kind regards

[@mddawson1]

I agree, good studio production has a greater influence on the end recording than whether it is analogue or digital. One of my demo recordings is 'Celestial Echo' by Malia & Boris Blank. It has a wide and deep soundstage yet all the music was created on a computer. But another demo recording of mine is 'Just a Little Lovin' by Shelby Lynne that also displays great soundstage yet it was an analogue recording done in 2008 (you can even hear a little vocal print-through at 1:24).

[@el_arte]

@@frankgeeraerts6243If you can pass a blind test and identify a TBM CD from the source TBM record, then it’s a fact…for you. I know I cannot, so it’s not a fact to me.

[@tubelab194]

No apologies necessary. But remember what my main point was, analogue recordings pressed to vinyl or copied to tape as a whole sound better than digital. I'm not talking what technically specs out better, but in listening sound better. Remember we do this for a living and every day critically listen to both digital and analogue music on a high quality system (that we designed and built). The difference in sonics between a high quality analogue recording and a high quality digital recording (and we have many) isn't even close. Yes a good digital recording that's properly mastered and manufactured on a cd can sound very good, same for a 24/192pcm or 512dsd file, but as a whole, sonically they do not sound as good as a quality all analogue vinyl record.

[@el_arte]

@@tubelab194 No worries, these things will always be highly subjective. I did the blind tests with my TBM CDs and I don’t hear a difference. You may have done the same tests and heard a significant difference. Hence, it may be a context where the concept of “fact” or “truth” doesn’t apply. (rather than saying there are many facts or truths) In the end, it’s marvelous we all can find something we can enjoy through various ways. That being said, the process of converting 100th of mm grooves to mV is quite error prone and I have not found equipment that can keep distortion below 70 dBr using that approach. But there again, I believe distortion is something our brains learn to identify, filter or even enjoy! So, if your brain is looking for that H2 above 70 dBr and doesn’t find it, you may not enjoy what you hear. Conclusion: It’s probably just as wrong to say analog is superior to digital as it is to say digital is superior to analog. From an engineering standpoint, it’s clear digital is superior, but it doesn’t mean it will lead to greater enjoyment for someone who is used to the harmonic content recorded and reproduced by analog devices.

[@masterazlan6999]

Naa...try the 32bit n aboves, actually 24bits are better then cd quality for basic noobs..Digital tech r catchin up quet fast ha3 yup evo of semi cond principles..Peace!

[@nyquist5190]

This "rebuttal" seems to be a mish-mash of personal preferences and dubious technical claims - not subtantiated by proper evidence at all. Repeating the word 'analog' endlessly does not help either. The authors seem to be confusing the original analog (there it is again!) sound with various analog representations of it as if they were the same thing, as long as they are - you guessed it - analog.

[@tubelab194]

We work professionally in audio and do a lot of critical listening to both analogue source material and digital. The main point we were trying to make is that as a whole an analogue source is superior to a digital one. The evidence is a first hand account of our experience based on thousands of critical listening hours in the music room. Tube Lab is shot in a mostly one or two take format and is not meant as a technical program, but as a beginner level introduction to various audio subjects mostly focused around vacuum tubes. In 20-25 minutes of mostly unscripted show, it's not possible to go deeper into a subject. I would note we both take 4 hours out our work week to make what we hope will be a fun and informative video - every week - 52 weeks a year.

[@nyquist5190]

@@tubelab194 "The main point we were trying to make is that as a whole an analogue source is superior to a digital one." Unfortunately that is not a "point" but just an opinion - not any more valid than any other opinion. You prefer analog to digital - perfectly fine. Of course there is nothing wrong with having opinions. We all have them.

[@tubelab194]

@@nyquist5190 you are parsing language instead of discussing what we have said - in extensive critical listening tests we have consistently found analogue sources to sound better than digital. That is a relatively rare statement, partly I think because the industry message since 1982 has been the opposite and many younger audiophiles have invested heavily on the digital side, never realizing that the path to great sound was from all analogue sources.