Tubular Series, part 3 - Comparing Tubular Key Cutters

[@whothefoxcares]

“The good thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.” ― Andrew S. Tanenbaum

[@peterfox2565]

The problem with "Standards" is the second "S"

[@AdMan-The-LabRat]

"The second 's' stands for 'salt' we throw that away" -Mash's Ham, Spokesperson

[@TesserId]

My brain is just so entertained to see that a zero cut is not the absence of a cut.

[@DeviantOllam]

Yeah, it's roughly akin to the way Schlage or Yale or Weiser do their systems, where "zero" is a valid cut that is close to blank but not actually blank. (Compared with, say, Arrow or BEST who have a zero cut that is in fact truly the same dimension as their blank key blade itself)

[@PaulSteMarie]

I learned locksmithing on Sargents, and those have a 0 cut as maximum depth. The campus master keys all ended in 000, which made it easy to file keys down and turn them into building masters. I assume whoever originally designed the key system didn't realize that Sargent used 0 to mean 10.

[@derekbroestler7687]

@@PaulSteMarie OOOFFF... That MK system was clearly set up by someone who was NOT an expert in setting up MK systems...

[@PaulSteMarie]

@@derekbroestler7687 to be fair, that was probably set up in the 30's or 40's. They later switched to Medeco on the newer buildings. Of course any keyed lock is of limited use if there is just one door that you can get around by other means. Take the lock apart and you can cut a key for it, including any masters.

[@DeviantOllam]

@@PaulSteMarie wow, that's crazy! And, yes, in the land of Sargent, 0 is in fact more of a de facto 10

[@waterboyblue1]

Thanks for the great information. I brought a Klom several years ago. Never worked worth a dam. After today's video i spend a couple hours adjusting it. Now it cuts pretty close to the right depth now. Just need to get the right gauge now. Thanks again. Can't wait for the next video.

[@ianbelletti6241]

There's a set screw on the bit handle. The bit may be set out of spec. Grab your Allen wrench and adjust the bit in it's holder.

[@DeviantOllam]

Yep... that's totally what i wound up having to do

[@peterfox2565]

If you are into machining and have a vertical milling machine it is quite easy to accurately cut tubular key blanks. That was my go to for several years until I found a really cool Fort Lock Tubular key origination machine.

[@peterfox2565]

Some additional thoughts on cutting accurate tubular keys. Although convenient both the HPC style and the plastic decoding gauges are not particularly accurate when trying to calibrate handheld or powered key machines. Mitutoyo makes a 4" digital caliper (500-195-30) with a round rod style depth measuring attachment that works OK for the purpose. Alternately a proper depth micrometer can get good measurements with some skill. After some frustration I made a custom gauge based on a dial indicator that gets me good measurements to 0.001" very quickly. With regard to cutter diameter it really doesn't matter much the pins are considerably smaller at around 0.093". Most handheld and powered machines use a cutter around 3/16" (0.1875") or 5mm (0.197"). On the far extreme end HPC has a kit to cut tubular keys on the 1200 code machine and it uses a cutter that is over 1.500" in diameter. The cuts look really strange but they work.

[@ScamstinCrew]

You could easily make a 3d printed alternative to the KLOM key pusher part. That part is only there for the detent and to make pushing key easier. The detent is in the main tool body. I dig this kind of frank RND tool stuff. Thanks for sharing your time and expertise.

[@DeviantOllam]

already on it!!

[@AdMan-The-LabRat]

At the beginning interest level was about a 1. Painfully tracking rapidly diminished as frustration level increased. Leading to syncing up with and then forecasting your new and improved streamlined process. Great job Dev! That's some next level mind speak phenomenon there. Seriously my wife was even befuddled by it. We don't use any tubular locks thus unable to justify a tubular lock decoder purchase (being jealous is not a 'need'). What made this an exponentially better experience is now i have the 'tool' to understand and appreciate the high quality commentary this video generated. Peace!

[@USBCORD11]

Thank you for pronouncing the town correctly.

[@phopetindall]

super interesting; I always wondered how these tubular keys were cut.

[@ImGumbyDangit]

Interesting to see the HPC graduated 0-7, then the supplies Gauge graduated 1-8. I have two of the Klom cutters, the first one I got would not dial a 7 cut to the index mark - Just could not dial it. Second one seemed better. I started using Calipers as could not trust the guages. Looking forward to your next video showing the adjustments on the KLOM, maybe I can recover my first one. Also I lucked into finding a A1Herty Gurty which you did not show today.

[@Locksmith.71]

The adjustment is at the end of this video.

[@MinorLG]

I had to skeletonize a tube key at work, while back. A lock was jammed partly actuated, and i needed to get the key in past the detent.

[@torchofkck4989]

Thanks for sharing I've ran across this issue. (Using code key & opposite code cutter) Personally, I'd like it if the code cutter(s) were made with depth code indexing as ""A -> H"" . . . It would Guarentee that the user will pay attention to which coding is to be used.

[@meatharbor]

Unpublished 5 seconds of outtake footage from the beginning of the video: "I am mad scientist. Isso kuuuuru."

[@DarkArtsLockPicking]

So I had to calibrate my two klom cutters when I got them so that they cut at the correct depth. Just like a normal key machine they need to be calibrated at times.

[@Tw0Sevenths]

calling the sticker removal kit HRT got me

[@fauxque5057]

I have the Klom. Maybe because I don't cut keys from provided numbers it's never been an issue. What I do with it is impression tubular locks with the Southord tool then read the pins with the provided tool. Then use that number to cut keys. Most likely the numbers I come up with don't match any standard but as long as the end result is that I have a functional key, then it doesn't matter how I get there.

[@TurkVladimir]

Thanks Great Video

[@PaulSteMarie]

Did you calibrate that cutter first? It looks like you can adjust the center rod, possibly enough to switch from a 0-based to a 1-based system.

[@tequilacollins]

Hard to tell in the video. But for the Wenxing, the depth setting wheel has a hole in it. Could those bolts you didn't know what they did perhaps screw into this hole and act as a set screw?

[@Ghost_Os]

So get the KLOM, get a proper gauge, calibrate it properly using said gauge and a few throw-away keys, and add an indexing mark for the spacing. Maybe those holes can be bored all the way through and a longer rod added for a proper lock-in?

[@TheMyname707]

I would just drill through the bottom ring and put a longer rod in the top one to lock it in place during processing. You got the guiding from the top housing.

[@mattfleming86]

Unrelated to the video.. Thanks to you and the "site which shall not be named" Long story not that short: I'm interested in locks and love the videos but don't really pick a lot (usually out of necessity.. own a farm and business, and everyone associated with us is forgetful 😂) Anyways.. had a "total loss" house fire in 2017. My pick set was on top of my gun safe. So for the last 6 years I've been using some melted petersens. I mean.. they mostly worked and i'm cheap. But I finally broke down and made a small order from the site. The picks are nice, I finally have my beloved Pry bars back. I no longer am going to be shimming padlocks with a beer can. And most importantly I have the cross lock pick for the safe at work (i've had to pick it twice with regular picks, and it's a pain. Deeply recessed) People are rough on the safe door. Once the battery contacts came loose and another time a wire connector came loose. A ramble for the algorithm.. but since you don't like to talk about the awesome Red Team Tools (with crazy fast shipping... thanks) i'll do it for you. You all kick ass. Thanks Dev and team.

[@DeviantOllam]

Wow, we're so fortunate to be a part of your rebuilding process!

[@deferno5]

For the gauges not matching the numbers it really seems like they index the cutters at 0 but index their gauges at 1 for some reason?

[@wobblysauce]

It works, but some assembly required.

[@dcriley65]

Something else ta throw in the Kit Bag.

[@mrlithium69]

clear as mud. the only thing I understand about whether to use 6 or 7 is "scratches at level 6, deeper grooves at level 7". If that doesnt result in the right key, then IDK What Im Doing Dog.

[@ladylilithparker]

Props for saying "Wustah" like a local. Next time you're in that neck of the woods, we should grab some sushi.

[@iggymac3473]

Nice bro more money to spend lol great show

[@kevenquinlan]

Soooo glad you put this video out and even MORE glad= I never bought one, lol. Never knew the differences between brands but I DO KNOW Chinese manufacturing can be extremely nonsensical sometimes. I had just commented in one of noob's vid's that they should make more dedicated Tube turners and a push stick to pick Tub's. I have bought the cheap tube impressioners and they never open shit. Than= makes me not want to fork out 80 bucks for a more dedicated one= when you have to purchase more than one to have a complete set- which would make me lean to picking them. I know Noob came out with a Tube turner from Multi and it's nice for as far as that is concerned but all the tube turners I think aren't very good. I don't know why you can't have a notched one that is like a BOK turner with a square on it that fits the divet on the lock? Of course, every time you pick and turn it= it will be slightly off the original angle- but then you could just make another wrench for when it's picked once, twice, etc. You could design and sell a set of them and they would be more comprehensive than the ones that are available now. I think Tubes are super interesting, ubiquitous, and often misunderstood- even in the lock sport community. I still would rather pick them though as I am poor but all the ones I work on at the U don't have much exposure so I can take my time. I can even just pick one once= come back the next day and pick it again, etc... until I rotate it enough to open it. Also, on most of those boxes if you insert a decent, stron, flat head and you put it on the swing latch and give it a good whack= you should be able to turn the arm and open it and this doesn't break it AND you can put it back into place with minimal notice as these are not accessed very often in situ. Also, there is the red cut-out piece the arm swings into= you can simply bend it out enough to bypass the swing latch and then just bend it back into place the same way you did- but in reverse. I have done both ways and they both work good- only if exposure is an issue, otherwise I prefer to pick. Anywho= great vid and thank you.

[@BuffaloChicken]

Love the music!

[@DeviantOllam]

🤜🤛☘️

[@derekbroestler7687]

This ENTIRE series could LITERALLY be summed up as "Why I never invested in tubular lock cutting"... I can unlock them (one way or another) and I will replace them... That is it.

[@TheVrocco]

Great video! Would love to see the Herty Gerty in the mix too.

[@DeviantOllam]

Yeah, we have it at RTAwest but i am not at that office right now... James in our office was kind enough to take a photo or two for me =)

[@TheVrocco]

@@DeviantOllam Cool. Is RTAWest the new property in Vegas? As a Vegas local, I look forward to doing some training there at some point.

[@taser1984]

One problem with the "spline" type indexing system, at least on the Herty Gerty, is the splines break off easily. Meanwhile, I went to get a CodeMax manual today, and Hudson isn't bothering to post manuals on their site, which is disappointing.

[@davidwolf3884]

Where can you get new cutter for a klom?

[@warrensteel9954]

Oh no! I have to wait until my lunch break to watch this!😂

[@RubberBanned]

7254632 on my pepper grinder. I used to cut them all manually before I got my Scotsman, and then the Black Widow. I, oddly, still cut to Chicago specs. Luckily I can test the locks! The incongruity is truly frustrating though, from an operating standpoint.

[@francoisbelangerboisclair]

The Klom need to be calibrated. I set mine so when I dial a 6, I get a GEM/FORT 6. You just need to adjust the blade by unscrewing between the 0 and 7... And screw it back when it's done.

[@thelockpickinglebowski633]

I think some Kryptonite bike locks use a larger tubular.

[@czdink07]

Sounds like the hpc cutter could use a engraver and a white paint marker to change that “0” to an 8 since all but 0 are lined up to the ace depth standards.

[@submittogodalone8449]

Sir, can you do me a favor and direct me to, or explain, a simple path for someone who wants to focus solely on physical pentesting? I imagine it would have to do with some kind of locksmith training.

[@ceefusjenkins2281]

Is this the 7.8mm cutter?

[@warrensteel9954]

After 12:28 it appears to show a 7.8 near his right thumb.

[@jrmbayne]

Provided the ratio between cuts is the same, can you not slightly over cut your entire bitting sample and have a key that works if you don't push it in quite all the way?

[@marcogenovesi8570]

Haha that's cool, the two chinese ones that are very similar but just different enough to not be the same parts

[@poprawa]

You need to get cutter setscrew loose and calibrate the cutter to your standard.

[@poprawa]

You are on your own to set up those cutters, probably all of the set screws are meant to be tampered with. All of those cutters are just poorly explained by seller

[@tocsa120ls]

I think you'll run into this exact same 'issue' in all professions. All of those tools work as designed. It's not enough to buy the tool, you have to be trained how to use them (or become experienced through trial and error) - my father was trained to run a lathe when he was young; you'd be amazed how accurate he can work with a machine that is looser than a downtown slot machine. (he easily cuts threads that are smaller than the backlash) You're not told by the manufacturer how to work with a worn out machine, you get that either from someone more experienced or figure it out yourself. This is why I'm not worried when news come out that some 6yo Thai or Indian kid did a 100% RHCE or Google Cloud certification. That doesn't teach them jack shit about real life applications. An example from the IBM world... what is faster when clustering Websphere servers, in-memory session store, or database-backend sessions? I know a db backend will beat memory duplication every time AND I can also explain why because I spoke to the guys who developed the darn system and they told me.

[@chemputer]

Are the cutting bits interchangeable, and if so, could you get a "perfect combo" that would produce an accurate cut? I.e. the HPC body with the KLOM Cutter?

[@DeviantOllam]

they do look like they could be. i do like the KLOM cutter for its smaller diameter

[@scottmilano2940]

Is 0 based numbering vs 1 based numbering? So 7 in a 1 base system would be a 6 in a 0 based?

[@mrlithium69]

yeah that was the last video. go back and watch that, it was more clear than this video

[@beave200]

I actually live a town over from hudson lock, almost worked there. Seemed like a nice place, but when i showed up for the interview they basically cancled it without telling me and when i asked why, they just kinda shrugged. Kind of unprofessional in my opinion.

[@curtishoffmann6956]

Where *does* he get all those marvelous toys?...

[@RubberBanned]

The internet! And locksmith supply houses. ;)

[@FusionDeveloper]

Google Lens on your phone can translate the Chinese instructions

[@TheFriskyComiskey]

"I saw her when she came out she was getting some peppers"

[@DeviantOllam]

i miss Sublime, heh

[@TheFriskyComiskey]

@@DeviantOllam hell yeah brother I got you.

[@ajuanjojj]

That intro lol

[@Ralesk]

Feels like the wenxing key gauge is just garbage, did you measure it to the other two? It's probably not just the numbers that are wrong, but maybe it's just stamped completely badly.

[@undefined40]

And there is one tubular key variant without the inner "nose" as recently showcased by some lockpicking lawyer

[@DeviantOllam]

the CompX Turbine is like that

[@IsamuSushi]

What I don’t understand is why didn’t they adjust the depth of the cutter to a 0 cut to zero out the machine before they started??? Most of the precision tools I get from the factory are close, but they’re not zeroed in… specially when it’s a knock off or a cheaply made tool! Not only can you adjust the depth of the cutter you can adjust how much tension the ball bearings put on each detent so you don’t knock it out of place accidentally.

[@BillyONeal]

Missed opportunity for the size to be 1337

[@DeviantOllam]

i know, right??

[@GigasGMX]

Everything about the Wenxing just screams “we do not care at all how ugly this is”. Which is how I knew it was either going to be the best or the worst of the 3.

[@TheFriskyComiskey]

"Riots on the streets of Miami"

[@clockwisesss6031]

If it's just the numbers being out by 1 could you not 3d print a ring to go over the other one and clip in with the hole on it. Hell you could make a couple and colour code them all to the same as you check the keys with.

[@colinstu]

why call the Chinese language "squiggles"?

[@AdMan-The-LabRat]

True that? Decoding the documentation supplied curious if it gives instructions on calibrating?

[@jackbarrett8100]

Are you deviant of magic or ASTRO?

[@Unicbacen]

Hello

[@brianogram5194]

HPC has gone drastically downhill since the buyout. They don't support replacement parts and will ignore you for months. Even if you go through a retailer like CLK Supplies. Very disappointed as the HPC punch was my go-to key maker.

[@DeviantOllam]

Yeah... i think Hudson is having a bit of a challenge trying to spin up on everything since they acquired the I.P. and the tooling but not the people, if i understand

[@VeraTR909]

Let's make a new standard, using letters instead of numbers to clear up this crap ;P

[@marcogenovesi8570]

Yeah it seems this device was designed to be used as a drill bit, as there is a rod sticking out instead of a pommel or screwdriver handle or other ergonomic way to grip and exert force by hand.

[@marcogenovesi8570]

Why tho, it's not like grinding a little some keys is a so hard job you need a drill motor

[@davidwaring1112]

Hi dev great videos. I just watched the HPC video on the cutter it states they are coded 1 to 7 0 being 8 ace kzbin.info/www/bejne/aoDFYmhqa6iEmtE 0.50

[@OLLE3770]

For offering such low security tubular lock terminology is amazingly confusing. It's like programming... Is the first index of an array in this language zero or one? Is this machine big-endian or little-endian or perhaps a byte-pervert? Are multi-dimensional arrays stored consecutively on the first or last index.... Tubular locks should never have been invented.

[@Roger11719]

first