Tudor Queen Consorts, the Grey Sisters and Elizabeth Seymour, Lady Cromwell

When we began planning episode 103, I don't think we imagined that it would be a themed episode. This episode we were fortunate enough to have both Elizabeth Norton and Leanda de Lisle on to talk about women, or women near the throne. Elizabeth chats with me about queen consorts (oh the fun!), and Leanda is asked YOUR submitted questions on the Grey sisters. Then I teach you a bit about Elizabeth Seymour (sister to Queen Jane) in A Brief History.
And, as a treat to all listeners, everyone gets access to Elizabeth Norton's full answers in "IF I Made You Choose" this episode! As patrons you will now (after this episode) receive early access to the answers prior to the public.
Credits:
Written by: Rebecca Larson & Stephanie Stohrer
Voiced by: Rebecca Larson, Stephanie Stohrer, Elizabeth Norton & Leanda de Lisle
Produced by: Rebecca Larson
Imaging by: Troy Larson
Music Credits:
Pavana alla veneziana by Paul O'Dette, Composed by Joan Ambrosio Dalza
Resources:
TudorsDynasty.com
TudorsDynastyPodcast.com
/ tudorsdynasty
Patreon.com/TudorsDynasty

[@JustineBrownsBookshelf]

On the question of executing queen consorts, let's not forget that Anne Boleyn and Katherine Howard were subjects of Henry VIII, and this made them more vulnerable. While aristocratic, they weren't dynastic matches with diplomatic forces behind them like Katherine of Aragon and Anne of Cleves for that matter. A king was unlikely to execute a foreign princess.

[@katiejamison4238]

Eleanor of Aquitaine is one of my favorite Queens. She managed to keep contro of Aquitaine in her own right,after her marriage to Louis and during her marriage to Henry. During that time we one of my most favorite historical figures William Marshall. Anyway,back to Eleanor,she was a strong woman, she ruled well,she supported her sons. Love her.

[@marshavilkas3512]

I get that context matters. Elizabeth I was 14 when she had that encounter with Thomas Seymour, and she probably did have some sort of crush on him, but even in 500 years, psychology is still unchanged. Regardless of customs, at that teenage age, the brain is not fully developed and is not capable of consent. She was taken advantage of in a horrific way, and that event scarred her. In modern terms, we condemn Thomas Seymour for sexually harassing Elizabeth. But even in those times, I think we can still condemn him. It's just that it was considered "normal" for a young teenage girl to marry and bed a much older man. It's only when science caught up with us many centuries later that people began to realize this was wrong. But even if that discovery came many years later, it still doesn't change that it existed. For example, before Galileo declared Jupiter had multiple moons, this was a fact even in Egyptian times and long before that. It wasn't until the discovery was made that people acknowledged it as fact, even though that fact was existing but took a while to be discovered. Similarly, I believe Thomas Seymour is deserving of all the harsh criticism for the way he treated Elizabeth.

[@TudorsDynasty]

I'm sorry Marsha, but I disagree with most everything you've said in your comment, except that her brain was not fully formed yet. Elizabeth was not scarred by him because he didn't do anything to scar her. If Kat Ashley is correct, he was playful and did not assault or molest her in any way. It was flirting (IF anything like that even happened because I don't trust Kat Ashley). If she was scarred at all it was by the events that happened after his arrest and how she and her servants were questioned. Lastly, she received a portrait of Thomas from his former servant John Harrington when she became queen. Why would she accept it if he scarred her so badly? Harrington would not have commissioned the portrait had he known she would not accept it. I get frustrated because people really need to stop looking at Thomas this way. What needs to be done is more people need to look at where these accusations came from and start asking questions. Why would they say that? To whom would their statement hurt or benefit? This is all part of the research that is needed when you look in depth at the Tudors.

[@marshavilkas3512]

@@TudorsDynasty Hi Rebecca! I was not expecting a reply to this comment. I have just recently begun exploring my interest in Tudor history and am a big fan of your channel. You brought up a lot of good points. History is always written by the victors and those in power, which can make it hard to see from the other side. I agree with you that there is a lot of research I need to cover still. I actually was not aware about the portrait being commissioned and will definitely look into that. As for Kat Ashley's accusations, most of what she said was under torture and done in a way to protect herself and Elizabeth. In that case, I can definitely see it must have been safer for her to throw Thomas under the bus completely. For the flirtations aspect, I was talking about the one incident where Thomas cut up Elizabeth's dress while Catherine Parr held her in full public view. And the allegations he would visit Elizabeth's room early in the morning when she was in an inappropriate state of dress. Elizabeth was a young teenager at that time, and this must have been a mixture of exciting and confusing for her as she was handling her feelings about Thomas. Regardless, though, Thomas was in a position of power, he knew this, and took full advantage of it. This is where I become uncomfortable and begin to dislike him. I agree with you Elizabeth was perhaps greatly scarred with the aftermath more so than when her interactions with Thomas were taking place. However, I think this time helped her to realize how precarious her own position was and how being in a position of power can affect you. I think she understood firsthand that then men and sometimes even women in her life who held positions of power could easily take advantage of her. When she became Queen, she realized how that power could be misused against her and chose to reign alone. Sexual harassment of any kind, especially towards minors, is a form of power play. Regardless how truthful these allegations against Thomas were, I still think he misused his power and was completely aware of what he was doing. And that did play a role in shaping how Elizabeth chose to lead her life.

[@julieblackstock8650]

I would love to know more about Thomas Cromwell's wife

[@ribkan4759]

Unfortunately Elizabeth Seymour wasn't exist in The Tudors series

[@catalinacruz7801]

I love that she made the distinction between Henry VIII being a bad person and yet a decent king.

[@Chiselnyc]

I don’t think Anne Boleyn lasted long enough for her cleverness to be that interesting. She wasn’t clever enough to keep her head. Blink and her time was over. Without Elizabeth I’d reign, she be remembered less.

[@paulinecoburn181]

Love the way Americans pronounce. Dye nasty 🙄

[@TudorsDynasty]

Why the eye roll, Pauline? We live in different countries and pronounce things differently. No need to point it out, unless you’re trying to make me feel stupid, in which case you failed.