Twilight Imperium vs Eclipse

I'm finally doing it. After years of hearing people compare Eclipse and Twilight Imperium, I'm sitting down and hashing it out.
Oh, and yes, I know I said Descendants of Orion instead of Descendants of Draco. Just a slip of the tongue that I didn't catch until after posting.
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[@ArcherSyndromeGaming]

I've played Eclipse once, at a sleepover. Two of the guys had been playing it awhile and had a rivalry going because one always lost to the other. Being my first time playing i stuck to my own little corner of the galaxy and built up my military assets as one does. Made a deal with the guy who always won that towards the end of the game I'd invade the one who always loses territory, since he was actually doing really well. Invasion comes, I do just enough damage to him to make him lose. Never invited over again. Good game, would recommend.

[@SignatureStampsFan]

Very well done. I played and won my first game of Eclipse last night. Played Planta, explored heavy and tucked away in my own area of the universe. Dropped a couple of stout dreadnaughts and squeaked out a win by 3 points.

[@SAUPAYANMAZUMDAR]

If one always loses to the other, that’s not a rivalry 😆

[@simonanderson4858]

Who won?

[@justmakingthistoreply5085]

@@SAUPAYANMAZUMDARtell that to Eagles fans

[@Haon_the_artificer]

I invited some of my friends over to play eclipse, people either enjoyed it a lot or went outside to play soccer

[@vladspellbinder]

"Diplomacy is baked into the game." The last time I played Twilight Imperium the guy who I introduced to the game (it was his second time playing) teamed up with my roommate to put as many red tile systems near me as they could get away with (my roommate started it, the other guy went along with it). Needless to say I wasn't feeling too charitable to either of them for the duration of that game. I wound up winning by a single point. I was fueled by spite. Thanks for this video.

[@christianwehner5565]

Oh the magic of Twilight Imperium

[@JohnnyLeyenda]

I love this comment so much. It perfectly represents why TI is so good.

[@WarpGhost92]

Well. Maybe it's not ti fault, maybe you just have shitty roommate.

[@thisjust10]

I hate/love this lol (love that you won) We have a polite agreement to try to ruin anyone's game with the map, for this reason I also recommend building a galaxy and then rolling for slice selection.

[@marshall4311]

Eclipse is the Twilight Imperium I am actually able to play with my wife and kids.

[@Supersly666]

We play games a few times a week, but I can never get TI to the table (as it literally takes 8-12+ hours). Eclipse on the other hand, is something we play frequently and can be done in about 3 hours. It misses the diplomatic depth of TI, but has it's own thing going on. The economic engine building in Eclipse is simply elegant and the ship customization is only matched (as far as I know) by Xia (which is a completely different beast).

[@walterchavez3081]

I played one game of the pretty old Starfleet Battles where the player has a small amount of control as to what a ship's internal rooms are used for. It is a very complex ship to ship battle game.

[@volbound1700]

Same here, seems like TI has a steeper learning curve. One issue on my end is that I have TI 3rd Edition as well instead of 4th Edition.

[@arthasthelichking6213]

If you look at high level games of TI4 and Eclipse you will see how funny a statement "Eclipse is Euro TI" is. Eclipse is a wargame. TI4 is neither a wargame not an euro. It is diplomatic game. U can lose every battle and have terrible eco while still winning.

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

And in any case surely if there IS a Euro TI4 it would be Beyond the Sun.

[@DeyaViews]

The big reason why I love Twilight Imperium 4 is the strategy cards, letting players do stuff outside of their turn, and all of the social interaction that comes with trading and the Agenda phase. It's because of that that I haven't found any other epic scale game that plays in a shorter timeframe or with fewer players. Games with fewer players can do the tactical parts better, but will often make sacrifices on the social aspects of the game. The only game with more players that does the same thing on that front is Diplomacy, but it is a lot more focused on military aspects. Other games with more players that do the social aspect well just aren't strategy games, they're party games, and as much as I love those games, they're of a very different scale and feeling. Luckily, they're also all short. Games that are shorter than TI4 are a blessing, but the only ones that I've found that scratch the same itch for me are the Game of Thrones and Dune board games. Both of those also generally require 6 players and both of them also run 3 hours minimum. That's still not a game I'll just pull off the shelf on a whim when I have friends over, but instead of a week's worth of planning (as with TI4) it'd take a day or two. I don't think I could have the same social experience that TI4 gives me with less than 5 players. With 4, many games will often have you end up in two camps of 2 and there's a bit less back-and-forth interplay. In short, I do want shorter TI4. But I want TI4. I just need some things that make TI4 get going faster, that makes the game faster, that makes the game hit the endgame faster. The quickstart rules and easier to score objectives are great for that.

[@thisjust10]

Ti used to be a 6 person only game for me, it just felt off at any other player count, but with the expansion I agree that 5+ is where it's at. Also Playing with folks on the discord/tts has lead to some fun and much shorter than irl, games too. It's Def more enjoyable in person, but there's something nice about finishing in under 8 hours with no set-up or cleanup too.

[@broganirwin864]

I always tell people that in TI it feels like you're playing the people at the table, rather than the game itself. I haven't found another board game like that, so for me, TI is king - it's just so much more nuanced and dramatic and memorable. But Eclipse is still a great board game, and is certainly much easier to setup and play. I'd probably schedule TI as often as possible (with 6 players), and play Eclipse between.

[@davidblechynden5322]

There's no game I enjoy losing as much as TI4. The game is an experience against the people rather than a puzzle to solve.

[@Haddedam]

Twilight imperium is time spent with friends managing your cosmic empires, pretending to be aliens. Eclipse is a solo ship build adventure that makes you sit quietly in your corner of the table. Only things in common are theme and box size.

[@brotherhorus4316]

Clearly you have not played Eclopse 2nd Edition, there certainly is plenty of interaction, if you are playing for or more players, you use the diplomacy rules, enty of back stabbing opportunities. Eclipse is just more accessible.

[@Haddedam]

@@brotherhorus4316 I have played only second ed and while mechanically impressive all games are us just silently sitting in our corners racing for murder sun. You can tell it's designed by a fin.

[@bornforburning777]

​@@Haddedam You aren't playing Eclipse properly then, tbh. While some maps are certainly conducive to turtling, you will quickly find that one player (usually Planta or Mechanema) benefits far more than the others, forcing their neighbors to declare war or risk losing to an extreme boom. Some maps reward rushing; others reward midgame aggression. In some games, I've taken GCDS turn 2 - 3. It all depends on draw, and what the other players decide to do. Eclipse is, in essence, an insidiously detail-oriented wargame that also has the audacity to rely heavily on dice. This tends to result in broken hearts and emotional exhaustion, but regardless, I really enjoy it.

[@Haddedam]

@@bornforburning777 Guess eclipse is the only game we're not playing properly since trade, negotiation, alliances and all that player to player stuff happens with other games organically. Eclipse is genious mechanically but it's cold and distant like a finnish boyfriend.

[@nicolajohnson1887]

Eclipse is two player and during a pandemic that's very useful, it's difficult to get lots of people round a table at the mo.

[@themoefez]

For those who have dipped a toe into PC strategy games, I think of and compare Eclipse and TI4 the way I think of and compare games like Sid Meir's Alpha Centauri or Civilization games to a game like StarCraft or Warcraft. Both types of games are amazing, very fun to play and each type of game plays differently enough to make them unique and enjoyable for different reasons and in different ways. I own and enjoy playing both. Sometimes I'm more in the mood for one over another. And sometimes, time (and available friends) dictates which one I can actually play. TI4 is a deep 4X strategy game that includes diplomacy, politics, grand strategy and great storytelling, and Eclipse is a more straightforward 4X "tactical" strategy game that is more centered around a "space risk" type of engagement with other players, but also offers it's own unique and, really fun I might add, take on space combat and tech upgrades (much like StarCraft does with unit upgrades etc) Hope that helps. Shea does a much better job of breaking it down, but these are just my thoughts on it, for better or worse. Cheers!

[@Supersly666]

Excellent analogy and one that I can certainly agree with!

[@avunz125]

Which one is the deep 4X and which one is the straightforward tactical strategy game?

[@themoefez]

@@avunz125 TI4 is the deep strategy game (a la Civilization 4) and Eclipse is the more tactical strategy game (a la StarCraft)

[@HeinzMcDurgen]

Agreed. If you have the physical space for both boxes somewhere, it's worth having both in your collection. Two very different games. Both are excellent.

[@taserrr]

Have you played any paradox interactive games? Like stellaris, eu4, crusader kings,...? If so does the analogy work there? Ever since I started playing paradox games I just can't go back to sid meiers civilization as it feels so bare bones compared to the incredible depth of something like eu4.

[@brianmyers13]

Eclipse has a bigger box so clearly it is better.

[@StriderZessei]

DEPLOY THE EXPANSION!

[@RTFM]

XD

[@mathevernarrt9300]

I am more a Eclipse Fan, But i understand The people who Like TI more, cause luck etc

[@ProBadSing]

Can't believe box size didn't come up in comparison smh

[@cyriltournier5784]

@@mathevernarrt9300 do you mean there is more luck in Eclipse due to the exploration mechanics? Or more in TI due to the combat mechanics?

[@twentysides]

I think both are great, but Eclipse I can teach and play with almost anyone without having to schedule most of a day for it. The game I can play is the one I prefer.

[@brotherhorus4316]

The BIGGEST difference for me, is that if you want to actually play a game, its Eclipse, all day long. I cannot get TI4 to the table, but Eclipse is a 3hr game and i have played it on numerous occassions this year.

[@StriderZessei]

I've played more games of TI4 using Tabletop Simulator than in real life lol

[@brotherhorus4316]

And thats the issue, you are paying over £100 GBP on a game, Eclipse will get use, TI4 will just gather dust....

[@kreeostravios5512]

@@brotherhorus4316 i regularly have TI game days where i organize and someone hosts a game of TI4 probably between once a month and once a quarter. Between TI3 and 4 i'm probably close to 100 plays at this point. I've had eclipse 1e since launch and have probably 10-15 plays because most of the time on shorter game days people would rather play other games as there are many other interesting 1-3 hour games that so many other things get pulled out and eclipse gets dusty on my shelf. Nothing wrong with eclipse or TI but most people are like omg you'll never get it to the table because everyone only thinks inside their small game group. But it's easy if you look at your local cities and find other people and be willing to teach it. I run the Houston group and we're up to a group of 90 people and regularly can run 1-2 games at the same time. People are there to play with you just have to look for them.

[@normative]

@@brotherhorus4316 Not true in my experience, it’s just more of an Event, not a casual “hey, you want to come by and play a board game Sunday afternoon?” The question is just whether you have five friends willing and able to sink a whole day on a ludicrously massive space politics game every once in a while. Precisely because if’s so absurd and epic and unique, I find people are, in fact, willing to make the time. Pre-pandemic I probably got it to the table about six times a year-every other month, on average. Even if I never played it again, £100 for six full-days entertainment for six people (well, and a few bucks extra for drinks) seems like pretty good value.

[@bernardorippe7024]

all our players want to play eclipse.... lot of players want to avoid Ti4

[@absol1975]

As someone who plays TI for the lore and epic stories it tells, I have to agree, and frankly, I don't want it to be shorter. Yes, it means I can't play as often as I'd like. But each time my group manages to get a game together, we have far too much fun.

[@85Funkadelic]

"Ill have the lot"...... Both games sit on my shelf and I would play either without problem, What a good time to be alive!!!!!

[@Pacavi]

I don't know much about either of these games, but hearing you talking about them is really interesting. Twilight Imperium definitely seems like something I'd love to check out once I find a few people who I know would be up for playing it with me.

[@wendydeklerk9960]

I own both Eclipse 2nd Dawn as TI3 complete collection. I must say that eventhough I can hardly get TI to the table, it still feels like a grail game of sorts to me. I had it on my 'for sale' list, but I'm thinking of still keeping my TI3 collection after seeing this :-)

[@thomasromanelli2561]

Eclipse Magnifica, Twilight Imperium Gloriosum!

[@IslanKleinknecht]

I feel like Eclipse is closer to Space Empires 4X than TI4.

[@Silverdragon83X]

The first expansion of TI fixes that, they bring in lots of new things and the fourth X

[@treedome25]

I really liked Eclipse the few times I have gotten to play it. However TI is just so memorable I can almost recall every game I've played since getting the game and I have never loved a game near as much as TI. For me the player interaction just weighs so much more in TI I love the minor bickering that happens and the backstabs that just never happened for me in Eclipse. I will never say no to Eclipse but I will routinely schedule a TI session with food and drinks and snacks for my friends.

[@claytonsmith3749]

A good overview. It would be nice to have shown some components while talking about specifics to have visual illustration of the differences.

[@stephenjames2951]

For my son’s birthday we are getting 6 together to play our first TI game. A little scared of the scope.

[@broganirwin864]

It's going to be awesome, you'll have a great time.

[@RTFM]

Good luck! Besides the basic stuff like get everyone to learn the game ahead of time (hey, I've got a video for that), my best advice is to make sure you have plenty of snacks. And not just carbs/sugar. The game is a marathon and people need to be properly fueled to keep up. I'm not even kidding.

[@davidblechynden5322]

Get everyone to watch the RTFM video a couple of times. It really does make a difference for the first couple of games.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Agree with you 100%. Love both games, but TI has the edge.

[@Hennu_TRM]

Nice breakdown. I think you make some good points but there are a couple things I think I disagree on. I have to disagree with you about the economy in Eclipse. You call it more "segmented" than TI. And I think I might know where you're coming from; when I first started playing Eclipse I had a lot of thoughts like, "Man, if I don't get some materials soon am I _screwed_," but after playing it a lot more times I started to see the game as a whole, but especially the economy, as very connected. The more games I play the less I think of my economy as "good on science, bad on money, etc." and the more I think of it simply as "how many cubes do I have on the board and how many cubes per disc do I have on the board?" and that tells me how I'm doing economically. Resources are actually kind of flexible, and not just because you can trade (which is usually not optimal because the cost is steep) but because getting more of one resource for the cost of another (or just more res) is usually just one economic tech away. Also the fact that your discs are your actions and your territory control and they are directly tied to your money means your economic choices dictate so much about your play. And if you read that last paragraph you will probably think, "Yeah, I know that," and as someone who understands the rules, yeah, you kinda do. But as someone who has played Eclipse more than a few times, let me tell you: it's deeper and more connected than you think. (I assume you have not played Eclipse too many times because otherwise you might know it's the Descendants of Draco :) ) And that's the beauty of this game: the turn limit and the inextricably tangled action and resource economy means that every disc you drop either onto the board or on your player mat has a resounding ripple effect throughout the entire game. In most games I've lost I can point to one poor decision and in many that I've won I can point to only small errors by my opponent(s)... And that's why Eclipse is amazing, but also why that game can be _stressful_. This is the other point I want to make, and it's not so much a disagreement, but a comment on what I feel is the most important difference between TI and Eclipse. I think the biggest difference is how you win, and I think that has a massive impact on the overall experience. Eclipse lasts 8 turns and then you see who has the most points. TI is won by the first player who reaches 10 points (or 14 I guess, if you _really_ have time to kill...) This naturally predisposes Eclipse to be an extremely tight and dense game where you take anything you can from any opponent you can because every edge you gain on the competition is explicitly enumerated when you count up your score and find out who played better. The fact that TI is objective based, and furthermore that some objectives are secret or pretty much impossible to stop your fellow players from achieving, I think predisposes it to be a slower, more political game. Now I haven't played that much TI, so maybe I'm wrong and you can get competitive enough where it's just as dense and tense as I've found Eclipse can be, but it hasn't felt that way to me so far. I find TI to be a more relaxing experience, and you can kind of do your own thing and it's still fun. I look forward to playing more TI because of the complex political interactions between players and the vast world and general vibe. I look forward to playing more Eclipse because maybe next time I'll be the one who's one step ahead, who's that much more efficient... I'm actually most looking forward to playing more TI at the moment, but to me these games are so different I'm not trying to say one or the other is best. I play them and enjoy them for different reasons. PS - You mention in Eclipse that most of the *7* species feel more or less the same, and I have to disagree there too... at least a bit. It is true that you can basically play every species the same way, the game doesn't always force you to use your bonuses/quirks. BUT, if you're in a competitive group, then you darn well better figure out how to adapt your playstyle and make those bonuses work for you or you're going to get left behind real fast.

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

I have enjoyed every game of TI4 I played in the last few years, whether it's a total collapse in the last two turns due to bad rolls, getting the win from very behind with six points in two turns, or a twelve hour game where the player who came last ended with 8 VPs. But I also finally have a great group for it - everyone's within a decent range of skill and experience so the worse players could beat the better players if they have a good day and the latter fall over, and everyone's on a similar wavelength of talking a lot and not being bastards until someone's in range of a win but accepting betrayal on the grounds of 'it's last turns and I could win'. This is the best case scenario for TI4. If I didn't have this; if I had players who talked less or were too fussy or hated confrontation, I'd play Eclipse. And sometimes you only have 4-5 hours instead of the 8+ you need for a REALLY good TI4 game.

[@explorer47422]

I would argue there is another aspect to consider: Exploration. While I enjoy Eclipse's stumbling-in-the-dark style of gameplay, it very much lends to the fact your strategy is driven by the tiles you're dealt. Whereas in TI4 because you can see the entire galaxy from the start you can scheme and strategise from the onset and begin setting up defensive lines with PDSs etc, and with the PoK expansion then exploration becomes more rewarding too.

[@LastNameTom]

FINALLY! I've been looking for this video FOREVER!

[@ModularLanding]

Great video. These games are so similar in appearance, and yet surprisingly different in feel. I like both of them, but I agree on all your points and prefer TI. It’s just hard to find the time and players! Both great games.

[@somerandomperson8282]

RTFM, you are one of the most charismatic and eloquent board game reviewers on the interwebs and your channel deserves far more viewers than it has. I have both TI4 and Eclipse and a relatively new board gaming group since less than a year. They really want to play TI4, but Eclipse was the game that made it to the table first because it is shorter and more manageable. We will of course play TI4, but there will be almost zero spontaneity to organising a game because we KNOW it will take 8 hours or more. With Eclipse, we can get it down to 3-4 hours. In summary, I think these games can co-exist in any collection because they are so different in almost every meaningful way. If you can't play one then you can likely play the others, and both will provide great but different experiences. I am happy to have them in my collection. :)

[@leobarlach]

I like both games, started with Eclipse because there was a group in grad school who would play it regularly, and spent years trying to get TI to happen and only recently succeeded. I think the economy in Eclipse is more interesting, with the challenge of balancing your money with the number of actions (and creating must win battles where you really need to put down a money cube or your economy will collapse). And that's good because the economy is more of the game than in TI, where there is a lot of other stuff going on too (diplomacy, trade, etc). I also like how you don't get action cards on Eclipse, because I have a thing with games that are super complicated and on top of that add a deck of cards with unique powers that it's impossible to prepare to. Plus, there is not a lot of space in Eclipse for alpha players, convincing everyone to attack on specific person, or something like that. Finally, even though in general "dudes on a map" type of games often bog down in the middle, because everything is already taken and you need to fight for every inch, that doesn't feel like the case in Eclipse, where the cost of keeping territory is a bit high and everyone ends up having a lighter presence in the map. That being said, I like how TI is such an extravagant experience, with its duration, it's multi-faceted strategy and the completely different factions (there are some more factions in the expansions of the first edition of Eclipse, though). Right now my group is really into TI and it would be hard to convince them to "downgrade" to just Eclipse. I actually think the simpler economy makes it easier for beginners, amazingly. One thing I feel people should stress about TI is that it's a long game, but not a complicated game. The fights are simple, and don't come down to "who was able to get missile technology first" (missiles were super OP on Eclipse 1st edition). At the end of the day, Eclipse feels like fine dining, while TI feels like a banquet. I will probably stick with TI for my current group, because I already went through the trouble of teaching them the game and getting them interested. I can get the tricky economy and resource management vibe from Eclipse from other games.

[@MartijnVos]

This is a great comparison. I have them both, but I've never gotten either of them to the table, and I'm not sure which one to push for. My impression so far was that Eclipse is simply a lighter, faster version of Twilight Imperium, but that's clearly too simplistic. I think now that if I want to convince people to give one of these a try, I should go for Eclipse, simply because it is quicker. It's a game you can actually finish in a reasonable amount of time. If people love it but want more, are maybe missing the diplomacy or want something more epic, then next time we'll reserve some more time for a game of TI.

[@timoseppa9124]

I love Eclipse: Second Dawn. I play a lot of games multiplayer solo or with just one opponent. Any game mechanic that has player interaction/diplomacy is impossible in most of my play settings, so frankly, I haven't looked into TI. It seems so not for me. Plus, I don't think I'd enjoy that player interaction with a big pile of players even if I had that as an option.

[@joesleavy9435]

Nice overview and comparison. I also had a bonus laugh. Had to have volume turned down a bit while watching this, so I put on auto-generated subtitles to better correlate the hard-to-hear audio. The words "twilight" and "imperium" get mangled pretty badly into alternative interpretations, but the highlight was towards the end, when "twilight imperium" got subtitled as "toilet puree". Not sure whether this is subliminal messaging or something - in any case it was worthy of a laugh, and ... I am probably about to pull the trigger on both these games.

[@RTFM]

They're both pretty great! And yeah, gotta love auto-translate for non-english words...

[@FMD-FullMetalDragon]

TI 3 and 4 are space epics telling the story of an already somewhat determined galactic stage where Eclipse is a more standard 4x game that tells the story of a small sector of space but lacks the grand sweep of history that a game of TI ultimately can tell.

[@carrickrichards2457]

Clear, well structured, thoughtful and helpful. Thank you

[@RicksPoker]

Nice job on this video, I felt it was respectful and fair to both games. I MASSIVELY prefer Eclipse to TI 3rd edition. With great effort I got people to play ~6 games of TI 3rd, so it is not like I had one bad experience. I also have Babylon 5: Component Game System which is very similar to TI. B5 CGS had much more interesting votes than TI 3rd, so I gave away my copy of TI, and kept B5 and Eclipse. I can even get friends and family who don't like war games to play Eclipse once in a while which is a huge win. TI 4th edition, may be a big improvement, but I've never played it, so I can't comment on it. Warm regards, Rick.

[@Bogoria1000]

I see that many of you are writing that it's not possible to buy Eclipse for a normal price. Try buying it from Poland maybe. It's like 130 dollars for a new copy. Just don't know how much is the shipping. I think it would be like 50-100 dollars as well to US. Inside EU it would be like 30 euros. There are many of them in here. You would just need to print English language rulebook and some of token's names would be in polish (edit: I was wrong. I've got my copy of Eclipse and everything is in English despite the manual). In Polish it's "Eclipse Drugi Świt Galaktyki"

[@philistineau]

I own both now, with the anticipation that I will rarely play TI4, but that it will be great fun when I do. All those other times, I'll get a LOT of enjoyment out of Eclipse Second Dawn.

[@QBG]

Is RTFM an acronym for "Read The Fucking Manual"?

[@paulbrown5937]

I've thought a lot about making this same video (I've played both a ton at tournament level). They really are different beasts and can't be compared too much. TI is the better game imo, but id suggest trying both at least once.

[@SpaceCatsPeaceTurtlesPodcast]

"Played both a ton at tournament level" he says.......

[@DanHar84]

I am lucky to own both. I actually bought eclipse thinking it is a shorter alternative to TI4..... but I was so wrong. Both are great games but they’re completely not comparable. Eclipse is a super risk. A successful and epic marriage of Kemet + Cyclades in outer space.... TI4 stands on its own.... on a completely different planet if not galaxy! It is probably the ultimate experience in board gaming and for that reason no game can offer the exact same experience in a shorter time. 2 games might come slightly close to this: Sid Meier’s Civilization but should be played with the expansion! And Clash of cultures + expansion

[@khristienpennanen1810]

The ongoing unending diplomacy of TI is so amazing to me. Also I'm very surprised to hear you say eclipse is less complex. I find TI to be much more intuitive and easy to play though not to set up. I love both though

[@claytonsmith3749]

I think the number of components, persnickety rule interactions, and playtime of TI4 are what make people describe it as "more complex"

[@raffaelsteinmann7296]

The core gameplay loop of TI is so beautifully simple.

[@claytonsmith3749]

@@raffaelsteinmann7296 how would you describe the "core gameplay loop" simply?

[@Vypper7]

@@claytonsmith3749 each player picks one of 8 possible actions, then they carry out those actions in initiative order, and others may copy those actions if they wish. That I believe is the loop being referred to. And yeah, I kept hearing how complex it was, and then when I got to it the learn to play manual was only 24 pages, with the rules only going from page 8-20. It’s not that complex, the complexity is more in the interactions as somebody mentioned.

[@raffaelsteinmann7296]

@@Vypper7 Yep, that's what I meant. Also your main action includes spending a token, placing it on a tile, moving ships into that system (combat happens when there are enemies in that system) and finally producing in that system.

[@kevingravel9555]

Great analysis! It's cool to see that while I agree with most, maybe even all, of what you are saying, I lean towards Eclipse as my favorite game. Although, like you, I love TI4 and would play it anytime as well. I think what makes Eclipse tip to the favorite side (for me and it is only a matter of taste) is that well planned bankruptcy that lets you take actions way over what you could/should take. But really, great video!

[@ShadowGJ]

Having done my research on which one to get, it'd seem that you need a larger, hardcore group to really enjoy Twilight Imperium, one with enough time if you want to play with any regularity. While I love the idea of a grand, epic campaign, having a budding group of 3, 4 at best, it'd seem we're below TI's requirements to make proper use of it. Eclipse appears to be more elegant, accessible and manageable as a whole for a smaller group. Considering both are excellent games, that decisively tips the scales in favor of the latter.

[@barelyprotestant5365]

Excellent video! I have TI4 and PoK, and I've been wanting to get Eclipse.

[@hugesinker]

Just played my first game of Eclipse. During play, I caught an opponent by surprise and flew a couple ships into an unguarded system they controlled. They countered by simply building two dreadnoughts in the system. So, effectively, my strategy counted for nothing. After reflecting a bit, it dawned on me that the strongest position one could be in is to have a lot of build points and no ships on the board at all. If you own a large section of space, you're then able to strongly defend any system that might be attacked by simply building there whenever needed, as many times as needed. The only other time you need to build ships is to attack, but then you just build adjacent to the sector you want to attack. There's no reason to ever worry about improving movement (except to also improve initiative). If you have ships on the board any other time, and plenty of build points, you should try to get them destroyed as soon as possible so that you're no longer restricted in the plastic you can make appear and you get bonus tokens which are more valuable than the ships. It seems game-breaking to just be able to make all your dreadnoughts suddenly appear on any system you control, and it's absurd thematically. That's why Twilight Imperium has a barricading mechanic and a bunch of other things to prevent such nonsense. You actually have to strategize and prepare defenses, unlike Eclipse. Anywhere you attack, new dreadnoughts just show up before you can do anything.

[@Yarnooee]

that is fair criticism. however you can counter that with simply attacking them with other routes. that is why the early exploration and tile positioning is so damn important. also, since you can still build ships and moving them after you passed, you can make clever surprise attack with it.

[@77Pictures]

I love Eclipse far more than TI. It feels so intuitive and personal. The building of your fleets and the multitude of options. I feel like many people give it to TI because it's much easier to go out and buy.

[@LordWiggle]

As a TI owner, I was like: there's another game?!? Is it better?!? But then most of the topics were in favor of TI for me, so I'm good :) I'd love to play Eclipse once, it looks nice!

[@Hahahahaaahaahaa]

They are so non-interchangeable for me that I don't feel like they should even be compared. Even the time to play put aside, TI is diplomacy with space powers, while Eclipse is a classic 4x, with less emphasis on combat (which I like). Other than look on the table, I find them such different games that I'm glad they both exist for different game groups.

[@BlitkriegsAndCoffee]

The biggest selling point of Eclipse imo is that you can knock a 4 player game out in 2 hours. Just not having to commit half a day to it minimum makes it easier to get games in.

[@LeeroyPorkins]

I had a chance to buy Eclipse 1st Edition with 2 Expansions at a liquidation sale at a FLGS, I picked Exodus Proxima Centari instead.😑

[@RobertHornbek]

It has been a very long time since I have played Eclipse, but I remember it being more mechanical. Whereas TI is more of an emotional experience that really transports me to the world. I should give Eclipse another try, especially since it has a newer edition.

[@RTFM]

It's definitely a solid game, but you're right, it is focused more mechanics than the story.

[@gamefreakgeek]

Yay! It's Shea Day!

[@Granmoe]

I would love to own TI4, but it would be imposible to me to get it to the table, thus I dont own it. I dont have enough player friends who wants to play such a big and time consuming game. In otherhand, Eclipse is smooth and fast enough to be spread on the table sometimes. Shutup&sitdowns review about TI4 is perfect and I totally agree that if there would be a chance to play it for even once, it would be worth of it.

[@RTFM]

A few other commenters have recommended looking outside your immediate game group for TI enthusiasts and/or playing online. It's not ideal, but it's definitely a game worth trying and those are ways to give it a shot without the cost.

[@jmwild1]

I can't get TI on the table without finding at least two other people who have 8 hours to kill and are willing to play one game for that length of time. I love long involved games but I'm in the minority among my board gaming circle. Eclipse I can bring to a board game party and actually get table time with it.

[@DCAMM720]

I can't even find Eclipse anywhere other than $400+ on ebay. I have yet to see it in person.

[@Bogoria1000]

Try buying it from Poland maybe. It's like 130 dollars for a new copy. Just don't know how much is the shipping. I think it would be like 50-100 dollars as well to US. Inside EU it would be like 30 euros. There are many of them in here. You would just need to print English language rulebook and some of token's names would be in polish. In Polish it's "Eclipse Drugi Świt Galaktyki"

[@minecrafter0505]

I think that it's not worth it to put both of these games "against" each other on equal footing and decide on a winner. Both have their distinct target audiences and both games excel at speaking to that audience. Want an accessible 4X game you can play with people who aren't full board game nerds (or who don't have all day)? Eclipse will be your guy. Want an epic battle day with your board game club? TI will be there for you.

[@foxykazoo]

Not gonna lie this makes me want to try Eclipse but it really desperately makes me want to play TI4 again soon

[@paulbrown5937]

It is on tabletop simulator and there is even a small discord server for it

[@foxykazoo]

@@paulbrown5937 I have it on TTS and I'm on both the TI server and the SCPT server but there's something about getting 5 other people and coordinating 3 group meals and dedicating a day to galactic domination that can't be replicated online

[@MJ-ze3vw]

Eclipse has a far more interesting combat by far solely due to the fact that you can customize your ships. The point system also encourages more battles throughout the game. Eclipse is definitely the better choice if you're looking for a war game.

[@WarpGhost92]

Eclipse combat infinite worse due to "roll 6' or die". Srsly, the game where combat is about having as much dices as you can and roll 6 on them is a joke.

[@MJ-ze3vw]

@@WarpGhost92 Don't you also throw dice in TI? Anyway, it's a bit deeper than that. You learn to appreciate having to work with probabilities and uncertainties in war games, otherwise the meta becomes stale.

[@Flofer12]

@@WarpGhost92 You're completely wrong. You can modify your ships with targeting computers in order to hit more often than only by rolling 6. If you don't do that, then that's your own fault and you deserve to lose.

[@WarpGhost92]

@@Flofer12 you mean computers which stop working the moment opponent put shields on his ships? Yeah, right

[@WarpGhost92]

@@MJ-ze3vw you talking to men with 10 year experience in multiple tournament wargames. Eclipse combat - one of the worst thing I ever saw.

[@odsonic]

No clear winner for me both excellent in their own right

[@litlclutch]

While I haven't played Eclipse the box are is beautiful but leaves you with a sense of isolation and loneliness. I think I have TI 2nd Edition so not sure what improvements have come out in 3rd or 4th but it is a great game and I for one am gladd it still gets the love.

[@Lavoye]

I prefer Eclipse for the ship personalisation. You spend the game tweeking your build, and then test it against your opponent's builds. Which is very cool! And its economy is much more elegant and satisfying. And then I prefer TI for it's depht, scale a epicness. When I want to build a memory out of a game, TI feels more real, more engaged, where Eclipse feels like a game. So, I like both of them equaly, and for different reasons.

[@RTFM]

I totally get why people like ship personalization, but for whatever reason, the more complex that gets, the less interested I am. I prefer a simple upgrade system to full customization, but to each their own.

[@Lavoye]

​@@RTFM It's not complex at all though. Hense why it's enjoyable. Everything is pretty much strait forward.

[@RTFM]

@@Lavoye The mechanics aren't that complicated, it's true, but that specific type of strategic planning is just not my cup of tea.

[@Yarnooee]

i like how battle of eclipse feel more strategical and variant while having lesser ship types. the downside is, if two player having only hull upgrades while not having much computers, the battle between two player can be take FOREVER.

[@Smash-gm8dl]

I feel like eclipse is fun if you want a short bit fun war game with economy management but twilight imperium is more of a Cold War game where you don’t have to be the best at war games to win even if the game takes ages so they are both equal to me, just depends what I am feeling

[@jeremiahkool1]

Great concise side by side comparison. Both games have intrigued me as they look like epics but I'm not sure I'll ever play either. Interesting nonetheless.

[@teqfreak]

I wish any of my friends were up for playing these games. I never played these games, but I'm very hungry for it. I love pc games like Civilization, Stellaris. For my friends Catan is the limit. For me it is where the magic of board games starts.

[@fulsame1]

"This is where i would put my eclipse second edition box...IF I HAD ONE!"

[@HospisNineveh]

I love both games! Happy to play either one. It is harder to get a 6 player TI4 game to the table vs a 6 player Eclipse

[@aunthemod]

I would put even more emphasis on ship customization. This is also the crux of the interaction of Eclipse, you design your blueprints to counter those of the other players.

[@gbgubben]

For me and my gaming group TI4 works best with 4 players and a narrow map layout. For us it speeds up the game significantly, you don't have to wait as much for your turn and with a narrower map the interaction with other players starts earlier. Eclipse 2nd Ed, is absolutley a game I would like to try, looks interesting.

[@GuillaumeBellemare]

Keep 'em coming!

[@l-Citr0n-l]

For me Ti is an amazing TTS game. But an awful home board game. I own both and tried to play Ti twice. Both times we ended up stopping the game because it just took way to much time and people got bored out of it. Eclipse has been a hit every single time. For me that’s the main deciding factor because I play games to have a good time with my friends. So the conversation is not even about which game is better... ( I think Ti is better but what’s the point if I can’t play it outside of TTS)...

[@partypao]

Eclipse has a unique population mechanic that adds a lot of theme.

[@kchekrik]

I wish the categories you go though was read out loud. I often watch videos like without looking at the video - just listening, since it's basically a podcast. Great video though :)

[@dapperghastmeowregard]

I'd argue 4 is the worst player count for Twilight Imperium. It's still great, but having every Strategy card in play at all times removes a lot of the jockeying. 3 at least goes by super fast (it practically becomes a regular game at that point), and has two cards being left out each round. Also not to diss Eclipse, I haven't played it, and I'm sure it's good, but just seeing those two boxes side by side sure ain't doing it any favors :P

[@christopherbarden7894]

I much prefer Eclipse, just for the time commitment alone. A personal preference, but if a game boasts a 4+ hour play time, it is just not the game for me. With a group that knows how to play, Eclipse can be done in closer to 2 hours (in my experience).

[@TheLimestoneCowboy]

I went with Eclipse, just started this video, hope I made the right choice!

[@christianwehner5565]

the answer is always yes, they are both the right choice and if you only have one... wait, the second will come

[@Anuin22]

Great vid really enjoyed! I own Eclipse and have only seen vids of TI, so take my 2 cents as you will. But I like the flavor fill, long type of complex game like TI more with the right group But it is harder to find players for it. The faster to start, faster to play games like Eclipse. And even it being multiple hours game is not for everyone

[@brandonbiondo9208]

Welp, looks like I have to pick up Eclipse to see what the hullabaloo is all about. It's going to be hard to top TI4 PoK though. We have a weekly game that we can get done in about 4 hours since everybody knows everything about everything, and it's incredible.

[@77Pictures]

Also check out Shut Up and Sit Downs review of Eclipse.

[@weakish]

Ill always play TI4 over Eclipse but they both are firmly secured in my top 5.

[@beatlecost]

Comparing TI with Eclipse is like comparing Projectors with TVs. Yes, they are in the same ballpark and TVs nowadays are awesome, but the sheer scale of a 200" projector is amazing. So, yes TI all the way :)

[@josephsalomone]

I usually play 14 pts TI4 in 6 to 8 hours, 10 hours with new players. And the fact that you said, long cold wars, is probably why TI4 takes so long for you. We are constantly doing small fights in TI4, sometimes from turn 1, if you aren't fighting, you are losing.

[@shadowhenge7118]

Sounds like Eclipse: When you dont have the time to play TI.

[@brotherhorus4316]

Not just because of time, some features of Eclipse 2nd D, is brilliant, designing your own ships is awesome, honestly Eclipse os a brilliant game, but different to TI4

[@mylor1066]

Great video. It would flow better if you read the title of the segments, on looking away i missed what the subject was. Also I listen to alot of KZbin and this would have left me wondering! Love all the Eclipse content, I'm new to the game and its top 5 for me already.

[@metalrock720]

So I have both (TI3 and eclipse 1st edition). The biggest problem with TI3 is simply it is too long AND it actually causes people to be angry at each other 😅. It is not JUST the fact it is hard to get to the table. By the time hour 10 rolls around, people just try to end the game prematurely or if someone built a huge fleet only to have that get destroyed completely so that they are basically out of the game at the end of an all day game, that REALLY sucks. Although I want to love TI more with it depth and player interaction, the length does more harm in terms of raw fatigue at the end of the game. I think if I can get it to like 6 hours, that would be a lot better of an experience but people just need time in these games so i dont see that happening ever.

[@scythe0925]

Best. T-Shirt. Ever

[@darrellduncan8737]

I adore both, I get more games of eclipse in though due to the time required for TI

[@thecaryou]

I disagree with Eclipse is easier to learn than TI. I think, for me, TI was much easier to learn not sure why, but Eclipse I am still not sure if I have played it right also if you learning from the rulebook I think TI has the win there.

[@RTFM]

The Eclipse rulebook isn't the best, but when it comes to teaching, my experience is that Eclipse gets started a lot quicker.

[@davidblechynden5322]

The Eclipse rulebook is terrible. I didn't even contemplate playing it until the RTFM how to play video was done

[@volbound1700]

I have both but I have older versions of both (3rd Edition for TI with both expansions and 1st edition for Eclipse). I agree with most of his points. TI is like Star Wars and Eclipse is like Star Trek. TI is a government focused game. TI can move faster than 6 hours but you need people that are dialed in and want to play. I own Eclipse first person, the special ships were actually an expansion for it and Eclipse first edition has far more factions, there is a time travel one and a biological engineer one. TI4 had all 17 factions from TI3 but to get 17 factions in TI3, you had to have both expansions. Original game only came with 8.

[@SamiPaju]

I really don’t think those games should be compared. TI4 is a space opera in the form of a board game. Eclipse is a highly polished euro game with combat and a space theme. Both are amazingly good at what they do. Like you said, they cater to a different feel of a game. If I have a hunger for TI4, Eclipse is never an alternative to it. It’s hard to think of any other game that would scratch that same itch. However, if I want to play a really neat and thematic euro game with civ-building wipes, Eclipse is a contestant.

[@andykaufman7620]

The prime flaw of Twilight Imperium 4 is Time to play. The game should play 4 hours as a standard game to fit in a standard Convention time slot, then have a scaling up or down from there, so you can add, 1 hour increments or 2 hour per increment as you go. If the default were 8 VP = 4 hours, and if 1 hour = 2 VP then 10 VP = 5 hour game so that YOU the players choose how long you want that game to approximately last. If you love epic long games, fantastic play to 20 VP and that would be a 10 hour game cuz you have all day or night to play, so an 8 hour game would be 16 VP, and thus an 8 hour Convention game played on a Friday or Saturday night would be 2 standard four our convention game slots. The rules as written don't work that way in TI4 because the designers didn't want them to.They purposely chose to make it 'literally all day to play'. If I were the lead designer that would not be the case and as you can see how I'd approach it it would be easier to get to the table, and play at Conventions, potentially allowing you to play two TI4 games in what would now take you one TI4 game, so if you play, screw up, and want to start a new game realizing the mistakes you made you can do that easier.

[@closedchill5243]

If TI didn't exist, Eclipse would be my favorite game. Two big things hold Eclipse back: #1 Ship blueprints ruin the game. Its a cool idea but in practice, they allow for massive power swings to take place off the map. It forces players to either completely tip off an attack by peeking, constantly peek everyones blueprints every turn, or else never peek and get destroyed by someone who just secretly slotted missiles into every opening, or whatever. Probably the best solution would be a house rule that players must announce blueprint changes. #2 The "euro" economy system is elegant and cool, but it isn't fun. It creates sour decisions where the player must hurt themselves to have a chance at success. "Strategic bankruptcy" is not fun to have as a suggested strategy in a game. Then TI just has a much richer decision space in the strategy cards, command counters, agenda phase, and the objectives encourage players to mix it up. The Eclipse wormhole system encourages turtling your slice. With PoK both games are about 3 hours too. I do like Eclipse ship molds though, for sure.

[@jonlocke7112]

Dude, after 20+ plays of both Eclipse and TI4 respectively? Eclipse smokes in terms of combat.

[@joeferreti9442]

Those are two very different games!

[@grzegorzkapica7930]

We are 3 frequently playing guys. We play one TI a night or 3 games of Eclipse. So TI is 3x longer to me.

[@SUPERCRAZYTV-ib9nl]

Amazing video!

[@Hudsonbba]

Eclipse is good, TI is fantastic, and Space Empires 4X is my favorite of 4x genre by far.

[@MD0Hatter]

Agree with that last part so much! Other than these two are there any other really good 4x Space Empire games?

[@Hudsonbba]

@@MD0Hatter My other favs include Forbidden Stars (technically 3x but my second fav to SE), and Star Trek Ascendancy.

[@MD0Hatter]

@@Hudsonbba thanks!

[@dnaseb9214]

I put the "trechery" cards from Dune into Twilight Imperium, house rules that heroes can participate in combat and give +1 to all dice. If 2 heroes are present they duel...and they can also die like in Dune. It rly made a huge positive impact to everyone playing. I got rid of eclypse 2 the next day.

[@Supersly666]

Awesome idea!

[@RTFM]

Ooooh, very interesting house rule!

[@dnaseb9214]

@@RTFM Once Dune(Rex) is found a auction for treachery cards happens every round similar to Dune the game. I did have to change some of the cards to make them work. Like the nuke card gives you a 1 time use of the last green technology to kill everything on a planet. The tylaxu tanks gives you all your infantry lost during a battle, the kharama card cancels a action card, etc. People can also sell anonymously any cards for 1 trade good. Even the useless ones. Or sell them to other players. Basically everything works like in Dune, but with small changes to some cards to make them fit.

[@somerandomperson8282]

Honestly, it makes no sense )to me, of course) to say you added house rules to TI4 and then got rid of eclipse. Two completely different games and lengths and they are imo not interchangeable.

[@nfinn42]

Give me eclipse any day. Reasonable time frame for a nice galactic dust-up!

[@BlitkriegsAndCoffee]

Interesting. I really don't consider eclipse a wargame at all. The system goes heavily out of its way to make PvP combat of minimal value until the last few turns. Ancients will give far more VPs thanks to discovery and reputation tiles, and lost systems even give resources for the turn while no longer requiring you to pay for their upkeep. The only real reason to make an aggressive early move is to limit a Planta or Draco, and even those tend to be calculated pushes on 1-2 systems rather than all out war.

[@DJDefConn]

I ordered eclipse in April and am still waiting 😔

[@subyk6046]

TI4 is really, really great game, but game time is too much frustrating sometimes. When someone had really bad round and being rekted, he usually no longer has a chance to win entire game. Then he sit and play and can do "something", but with feeling that next X hours playing he cant win. I remember my friend who was in charge, other 2 peoples made a deal and beat him in one round (nobody help him, because he had a lot winning point) and he havent home system and he had only few planets, no ships, no resources. He cannot do anything and he literally waiting for new game all evening. Eclipse is faster. If you have bad game, the next game will be much sooner. Its HUGE benefit...