Twins testing Drilling vs Task Based Learning

[@blascarrasco768]

Training this way is great. Task based games give the student context. So that way if they are shown a technique that relates to the game it makes contextual sense. Imagine giving someone a 1000 piece puzzle but no picture for reference. It would take awhile to finish but you would eventually do so. Then give another person the same puzzle but they have seen the picture of what the puzzle is supposed to look like. They’ll put it together much faster. That’s basically what’s happening here. Give context through a game. Explore and problem solve. Love what Kit is doing.

[@kitwarchilddale]

thanks so much man! yeah that's exactly it. Love it!

[@mulkosilma]

To be devils advocate here, I would argue that same puzzle analogy would be used by technique teachers by saying that they give the student snapshot of the end goal (picture of the puzzle), that being the exact technique they are showing and teaching, while task based approach is blindly trying to get pieces together and therefore teaching technique and drilling it is better. How about: task/game/ecological approach is better because every puzzle is different and it teaches that you should first find the corner pieces because there are only four of them no matter how big the puzzle is, and the approach with border pieces and continue with pieces that are somewhat unique and easier to find and continue to the end, where as traditional technique teaching approach gives you the puzzle and piece by piece shows you how its done and then you repeat the same puzzle over again. Then when you are presented new puzzle (sparring), you choke not knowing what to do, searching the pieces that are not be found, while the task/game/eco learner does not mind that and starts looking the corner pieces and going forward from there.

[@kitwarchilddale]

well said mate!@@mulkosilma

[@brassmarsh]

In 10yrs (or less) I believe all training will be games-based. Kit and Greg are pioneers, for sure.

[@kitwarchilddale]

hell yeah man, thanks!

[@mouthguardcomic]

It was really shocking to see the guard development of the brother who played the task based games. Through working with the Black belt with the ever increasing resistance, he also picked up how to defend and maintain guard. The brother who worked against a static drilling partner had no model to base his guard on and even laid passively on the ground. The task based brother looked like he had a couple of months experience while the technique brother looked like it was (and it was) his first day. Outstanding! - As an academician, (and author of Psychology of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) I found this fascinating! I also bought your Task Based Games course and have used it a couple of times when I taught class (Brown Belt - BJJ). The students say they love the games and they catch on quickly.

[@kitwarchilddale]

thank you very much for sharing that! that's a fantastic breakdown of what happened and it's quite obvious you are well adept in the jiu-jitsu arts! I appreciate that man.

[@mouthguardcomic]

@@kitwarchilddale Thanks and not a problem...I'm just trying to keep up with the times. 😀

[@kghkfyxk]

As an "academeician" you're basing this off a sample size of one.

[@mouthguardcomic]

@@kghkfyxk The word is academician. It is not "academeician." If you are going to play, know how to. Additionally, I've always heard of you guys, but I thought you only lived under bridges.

[@kghkfyxk]

@@mouthguardcomic you completely missed the point lol but keep being a pseudo intellectual if that makes you happy

[@SimonBJJ]

Love this approach This has been something I've implementing at my club recently with a lot of success with the members

[@JonDenton]

Brilliant video Kit.

[@kitwarchilddale]

thank you!

[@artisking9608]

WOW! I so wish I had learned this method of training when I first started. Absolutely amazing the difference in retaining the technique. Task games are definitely the way to go.‼💯

[@kitwarchilddale]

hell yeah brother. it'll serve you now! let me know how you go :))

[@theradguy5056]

Loving this content kit. You came to our gym in hervey bay and I've been practicing the scenario with my son ever since exploring all of the escape and attack options. Loved having you here. Thanks

[@kitwarchilddale]

that's awesome man, thank you very much. That was lot of fun!

[@theradguy5056]

@@kitwarchilddale holy crap, i just saw your podcast with Craig... loose

[@DanielAngelLuna]

Give the desired end result. Let them find their own way? Feels like a solid educational foundation for techniques.

[@TheMartialWay]

This is absolutely brilliant and changed the way I want to train.

[@kitwarchilddale]

that's awesome to hear mate

[@davidtaylor6204]

This video has definitely convinced me of the usefulness of task-based training.

[@kitwarchilddale]

hell yeah

[@dougieladd]

This is brilliant.. I'm seeing a shift in the way JJ is taught just in the last few weeks... I think task based is the way to go. Mainly because, I forget every technique :)

[@kitwarchilddale]

this is the way! thanks man!

[@mauricesberjia7736]

Sir, is there a gym where you teach classes regularly? I’ve had a taste for game based Jiu Jitsu training and now I don’t want to learn any other way. Thanks for your video sir!

[@kitwarchilddale]

that's awesome to hear man. I currently teach Monday nights at Subconscious BJJ in LA and Tuesday nights at Renzo Gracie on Sunset Blvd (LA). Not sure for how many more weeks tho, it's a temporary thing to get more people into the games. It's going really well and students are having a lot of fun, you're welcome to join!

[@Lostmodalities]

I was so intimidated to starting jiujitsu late in life, until this method. Who has time to learn a million techniques?

[@michaelzoupa2465]

This was gold Kitsch. Way to illustrate it 💪🏽

[@kitwarchilddale]

thanks man!

[@picojujutsu]

Really cool, maybe they could have tried passing the same guy but also this shows how the games guy developed some understanding of guard just through playing passing.

[@kitwarchilddale]

yeah we'll run another one doing that! As you can see the kid that did the games developed guard as well :)

[@dsouthers2]

I feel like the test would have been better if you had them both try to pass the same person's guard instead of each other's. One of the brothers seemed to have a much better guard sitting up and using all four limbs while the other was flat on his back only using his legs for the most part.

[@triskellfit2080]

I really can't get the haters of this method. It's basically another useful tool in the instructor's toolbox. Technique + task based games for trouble shooting seems far better. I read bitter comments like: - Kit Dale isn't as good as G. Ryan- Nonsense! What else somebody has to achive when is coming the point in his life to fancy a change in career? Kit Dale is a pioneer of this bjj teaching method, full stop. His legacy won't depend simply on his ( outstanding) competitive results.

[@kitwarchilddale]

thank you very much, I appreciate that! It's refreshing to see someone who has a real understanding as to why my competition pedigree might not match others. I had the pleasure of training with Gordon Ryan and Gian Carlo recently and they are fantastic artists, and it was a lot of fun to get to train with the best person int he world right now. The one thing people fail to realize is that most of these black belts world champions have competed in over 30 different world championships. I've participated in only 4. If I had continued to train and compete, there's no doubt in my mind that I would have won many by now. But as you stated I have many more interested, some in which I value more than competition bjj. But once I start making movies, you may see me make a return to professional competition in jiu-jitsu..

[@orgANGmo]

Gordon also trains like that. Pretty much every good black belt does. They use different names, but the same idea.

[@triskellfit2080]

@@kitwarchilddale I follow you buying your innovative products as far as I found them worthy and interesting. As I said elsewhere I'm 49 yy and I value my time, so if there is another way/ method to learn and assimilate faster Bjj, happy days! About other world champions I would rather them taking a clear stand against ped. I get their point as professionals they may need something to speed up recovery , but if injuries are due to High volume drilling sessions or a very busy competition calendar ( more money) then again, the average Joe looks at them as role models... Saw the same happening in Body building... My goal is learning well and longevity. Apologie for my prolixity.

[@travis1687]

The issue is the marketing methodology behind it. "quit wasting your time drilling" or "learning techniques is a waste of time!" this is a great tool in your tool kit but this idea that its going to be the sole form of practice in the future is nonsense.

[@triskellfit2080]

@@travis1687 the bold mkt statement can put off somebody. But then open a new window to somebody else out of curiosity. In the end is like cooking: either you follow step by step a recipe or/ and learn what each ingredient is (ie: spices) and you start experimenting keeping in your mind eye the original recipe cause you don't want twist your dish. This is the analogy that I like, at least.

[@orgANGmo]

My main problem with techniques drilling, is that you almost never get to the perfect starting position (as a white belt), and absolutely nothing goes as planned. My problem with task based games is that some people may need more guidance, and I have no idea how you can learn proper submission mechanics that way.

[@kitwarchilddale]

unbelievable easily actually! what you have to do is break down the submission to small sub sectional games. For example, the Kimora: 1. Start them with the figure 4 grip, with the goal being to only maintain that grip while their opponent tries to escape. 2. Then the next game would be taking that figure 4 grip and forcing their opponent into a position where they're forced to tap ie. applying the submission. 3. Then I would go father backwards and I would have them start with wrist control and their task is to secure a figure 4 position. 4. And then I would start them from the beginning and have their task being to obtain wrist control and then the figure 4 position. 5. Then I would try and get them to do it all together, starting from one position: secure and finish. I like to work back to front because if a student gets confidence in the end game they'll be far more incentive to improve their way to that position.

[@orgANGmo]

@@kitwarchilddale thanks!

[@paulthemediacreator]

Amazing Kit!

[@kitwarchilddale]

thanks man!

[@MrSnippety]

This was a great experiement

[@kitwarchilddale]

I'm glad you like it! it was fun

[@808BJJ_Black_Belt]

Nice 👍

[@reinhardtgallowitz5344]

I'm a big fan of the ecological approach, but I've had even better success blending the two methodologies through anchoring around concepts. However with regards to this video, the technique instruction could really have been done better - it was simply a long list of steps in this case, extremely hard to grasp for a new student. That's a big no for me. It's entirely possible to teach a technique progressively and introducing broad based concepts and goals around passing. That way the student has more "specific" tools through some drilling, but also the freedom and creativity to chase the broad based goals/paths.

[@kitwarchilddale]

yeah I understand what you're saying but the game was drill technique vs task based games. I will go to note that when I teach task base games I use concepts as guidance. I still stand by my experience and the multiple case studies of learning that explain why static drilling is an inefficient way of learning and does more damage than good (I'm glad that's a big no for you). We mostly seem to be on the same page!

[@mulkosilma]

I'm fairly new to teaching (< 2years) and to eco approach and I'm torn between pure eco and eco complimented with technique instruction. Eco resonates with me alot and seems to be backed up by heavy science, but there still are places where it is hard for me to justify pure eco over games and tasks complimented with some technique guidance. For example: escaping body triangle back control. I have no idea what kind of games and spesific tasks would be in place where student escaping would get some sort of positive reinforcement with all the failures because the position is so dominant and vs showing how you can peel of the body triangle and then doing the same games.

[@RogerRabbit123]

@@mulkosilma First of all, EcoD is not a method of teaching but a theoretical framework of how we learn (e.g. in contrast to information processing theory). There is no mishmash, but one of the two theories is right/best describes human learning. When it comes to specific methods of teaching, constraints-led approach or differential learning are the main approaches of teaching within Eco framework. Therefore, some form of guidance or (more or less) concrete instruction is not automaticaly anti-eco! For your example with body triangle back control, you could start with a game without legs already controlling the body. You just have to prevent your partner from bringing in their hooks or getting the leg triangle (could be 2 different games). Finally, a third game could start from body triangle and you could guide them to focus on hip rotation, trying different sides, or using their legs (without telling them the soultion).

[@mulkosilma]

​@@RogerRabbit123thank you for taking the time to explain! I'm not particularly good in reading books and acquiring information from there so the way you simply explained some basic things is much appreciated!

[@pandaman1677]

Action teaches louder than words

[@marschalljakob]

This is the way!

[@kitwarchilddale]

hell yeah!

[@usbsol]

Decontextualized vs contextualised training 🤙

[@slick222]

This would hold true in any sport and would prove nothing. Brand-newbie #1 who was put into a basketball game would find a place for himself and learn to avoid killing his team offensively and defensively somehow. Brand-newbie #2 who did a shotting drill would be less adapted to competition AFTER THE FIRST PRACTICE as the first guy. And yet, EVERY GREAT BASKETBALL PLAYER EVER drilled relentlessly, because competitive training and technical training are not the same thing. Pushing FOR partial training ("task based games") is super smart. Rickson Gracie has been doing it for decades, because in the past people preferred full training and nothing else, and a minority did a lot of drilling with some training and very little partial training. HOWEVER, pushing AGAINST drilling is either a)super ignorant or b) a misleading marketing tool. Drilling does something nothing else does, namely it perfects the technique without the benefit of athletic/competitive components to help execute otherwise potentially imperfect mechanics. Basketball players, soccer players, golfers, judokas, wrestlers, tennis players - literally ANY established sport with technique does this as an essential part of building a game. They have millions of dollars on the line, decades of data, and giant talent pools to prove they are right. Are you familiar with how intelligent Kobe Bryant was, and how obsessed he was with maximizing his talent? If not, just trust me that with the possible exception of Cristiano Ronaldo the level of a)innovative intelligence, and 2)hardcore obsession has probably never been matched in competitive sports history. This guy (CR7 too) DRILLED RELENTLESSLY. He also worked on his body. He also scrimmaged a lot. He also did small sided games (your favorite!) to perfect certain skills in motion. But he drilled - no resistance, purely for technical perfection - like a maniac. Jiu jitsu is in an annoying adolescent stage right now where people are constantly branding themselves as revolutionaries in order to sell things. The sport is young enough that revolution has big a part of its recent history, even its birth not long ago. But I will be happy when everyone grows up and quits trying to pretend to be a guru who has made some kind of Newtonian discovery, concerning which partial training, or if you're pretentious, "task-based games", ARE NOT. The same is true of the goofballs acting like the running-man pose and "strategic back exposure" is some kind of revolution. Saulo Ribeiro taught it in his DVD Jiu Jitsu Revolution 2 from 2007. "Strategic back exposure" has been all through his game from the early 2000s.

[@DK-bm5rg]

Your shirt is crazy!😂

[@kitwarchilddale]

hahah got good fans lol

[@harmonicproportions6588]

As a coach I'm very interested in this idea and trying to incorporate more games, especially in my kid's classes, but I have two questions after watching this video. Doesn't this require high level training partners? If you just have two beginners playing these games they're probably not going to develop even basic techniques like butterfly hooks, knee slice, etc These guys are professional athletes. Don't beginners who are maybe a little awkward need to learn how to move? If they just play games, going live aren't they going to remain awkward?

[@kitwarchilddale]

no, they won't remain awkward. what you have to do is create far more simple games with less variables! for example, if you want the student to get good at using the butterfly guard, then one game would be having one students task to maintain hooks on his opponents. then I would make another game where the student playing the butterfly guard has to try and break his opponents balance. and so on and so on, creating very small games that give them the experience in which you want them to develop, while learning how to move and problem solve.

[@Lostmodalities]

WoW!

[@edwardkaeser2533]

You mean drilling vs. Drillling?

[@amechi]

That shirt...🤣

[@BeepBoop2221]

One risk i see from the latter methodology of teaching is risk of injury. Of the times i've been seriously injured all of them have been from white belts "improvising" or falling uncontrolled or diving into position or submissions.

[@kitwarchilddale]

it's always gonna be the risk in combat sports. but the students should always be encouraged too move in a pace that limits possible injuries. When I do my task based classes or seminars usually the games are in a controlled environment which limits a lot of the variables allowing the students to be able to predict the variability in your opponent's solutions (decreasing the risk of injury).

[@andrewb5412]

Pigeon holling.

[@imloggedin]

Task based is a great way to learn but the brother in the red shorts had a far worse guard so it skewed the results.

[@RogerRabbit123]

He had a bad guard because he never saw/experienced what a guard should look/feel like. Thats the big advantage of task-based games: you always teach them both due to live resistance. I bet the coach of the guy in red shorts never moved or resisted against the guard pass.

[@imloggedin]

@@RogerRabbit123 but in most gyms this does happen. Technique followed by positional sparring.

[@RogerRabbit123]

And what do you think the guy in red shorts whould do/try if they go into positional sparring right now? exactly, this one particular move and he will probably neuer succeed. Thats the big difference between task based games (task ist the focus) or Technique oriented training (solutions are in the focus).

[@koblades9076]

I agree with your philosophy, but the brother with the shaved head has trained on the ground before so the result is skewed a bit.

[@kitwarchilddale]

Both of the brothers only have boxing experience. Unless you're referring to the time he spent playing the task based game? In that case, taking into account he was extremely tired because the games were more exhausting (and his brother was fresh from only drilling). We went back to back, as soon as they finished. The one thing that made the test likely unfair is that the kid practicing through task based games was not only trying to pass a black belt, but also able to learn by osmosis from the black belt the was trying to pass. In comparison to the other guy who was only drilling a technique. Which are all benefits of using task based games..

[@koblades9076]

@@kitwarchilddale I was just referring to what I saw of body mechanics. Even to start the shaved head brother had much better body mechanics even on his first attempt at passing guard while the brother doing the drill seemed to just flop around especially when finally paired up with his brother. My guess is while he is a boxer, there has been some MMA training. You don't pick up the knee slide to mount without ever seeing it! Don't get me wrong, I am 100% behind your methodology. I would like to see this again with a different scenario but the brothers reversed.

[@DrewDarce]

@@koblades9076 I feel like this is sort of the point. The bro with the shaved head essentially has grappled more before, but because he basically played the game for real during his training time, instead of being shown a technique and asked to drill that specific technique. He was given directions to pass the guard, and was allowed to explore and actually move around and practice...as opposed to just drilling a knee cut pass the whole time

[@kitwarchilddale]

we did shoot another scenario, where we switched the brothers and the other brother one but footage wasn't great. But we're happy to do more of these to show more examples. But I can guarantee you that neither of them have done jiu-jitsu or grappling @@koblades9076

[@dannyweir9218]

​@kitwarchilddale not convinced on the bit where you saying that neither brother had do grappling before, when one brother was going to his knees and getting a under hook the other brother stepped over straight to mount, very smooth. Sure there isn't a little bit of experience there..

[@cesaralvesdemoraes3187]

Yall cheated lol Should have given the other brother the same amount of positional sparring

[@LoudokaBJJ]

I am pretty sure that is part of the idea behind what they are doing. By taking away the drilling aspect they have more time to get to real time training that builds more problem solving skills.

[@cesaralvesdemoraes3187]

@@LoudokaBJJ I don't think you understood my critique, the "no drilling" brother did positional sparring and the other one didn't. That gave him way more context to understand the techniques.

[@LoudokaBJJ]

@@cesaralvesdemoraes3187 I know what you meant, man. What you just replied to me is the point Kit is trying to make.

[@travis1687]

So hold up you're telling me that you taught one guy one technique to drill where as you taught the other a general concept and call that an apples to apples comparison? I'm still not sold. The other guy is just spamming knee slide passes, the other guy has been given more options to choose from at a very low level of proficiency. I think this type of training has its place don't get me wrong but there has to be some kind of diminishing returns involved with both types of training and implementing the other alongside would see better over all progression. I'm willing to bet in 6 months of training the guy who did half and half would progress quicker than the guy who just played games. There's nothing wrong with making money but when everyone and their mom is selling a course that revolutionizes everything and will 10x your game or what ever its obvious people aren't going to give a non-biased presentation of the methodology, they're going to try their hardest to sell a product.

[@CJ-mm4gc]

Oh look, a backward hat. Nice