Two New Species of Killer Whales Have Been Named!

The Resident and Transient/Bigg's Killer Whales of the Pacific Ocean have been named as new species! Meet Orcinus ater and Orcinus rectipinnus.
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[@GandalfTheTsaagan]

I've always been struck by how varied orcas are, it feels fitting that that they'd end up splitted between at least a bunch of different species.

[@slappy8941]

SPLITTED? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@GandalfTheTsaagan]

@@slappy8941 Yeah, when a clade is divided taxonomists call it splitting, when clades are merged they call it lumping.

[@riice9978]

Both species shared same ancestors about 300000 years ago, dont interbreed and are mainly distinguished by their diet. Biggs (transient) orcas mainly feed on mammels like sharks or sea lions while resident orcas mainly consume smaller fishes. Apart from that they live seperate and also dont really interfere with each other even if they see each other

[@nathanwood8431]

Sharks are not mammals now?

[@celticlizardqueen]

Taxonomy was one of my favourite topics in animal biology right up there with adaptations. So interesting 😍

[@tamayako2000]

As much as I love the idea of there being multiple orca species, these differences seem too surface-level to really be considered strong enough evidence. Humans also have different cultures, languages and appearances, but we're not split into different species. Same with dogs - a chihuahua doesn't look even remotely related to a great dane, but we still classify them as the same species. I'm obviously not an expert on taxonomy or genetics though, so please PLEASE take this comment with the biggest grain of salt and feel free to correct me lol

[@atronachh]

It all comes down to culture, not science. Differences between species and subspecies in biology are fuzzy and subjective. We do not consider different races of humans as different species because that is too problematic to modern attitudes

[@OakenTome]

@@atronachhRace isn't a biologically meaningful term.

[@romanpaladino]

I agree. Seems to me that their differences are "cultural", if you will, not biological.

[@isaacdes962]

This comment is literally exactly what I was thinking when watching this

[@amandaburnham8626]

I'm the same way about taxonomy. I'd rather tons of evidence before splitting similar specimens into different species. It's more of an abundance of caution rather than not wanting different species

[@Evolved-Godzilla70]

Interesting and I’m actually surprised that there could be two more species of this amazing genus

[@arc7375]

Killer whales are awesome. Can’t wait to see the follow-up to the video you posted a while back. Orcas were the creatures that sparked my fascination with marine biology.

[@bradleywiesner3774]

Seattle resident. The locals are slow moving and shy while the transients are fast, curious, playful, bold, joyful, possessing a sense of humor, and expressing amusement. Strict laws prohibit chasing or harassment so I've only seen the transients up close when they visit in July. I've never seen sea lions so scared, and the transients WILL investigate your boat to say hello and make sure you're not harboring any fugitive seals. They don't hide on our boats due to the dogs. I would not want to be in a kayak when they're coming through! Fortunately, I don't think they've learned to attack boats like the orcas in the Strait of Gibraltar yet. If they get a notion to do that, I don't think you could scare them away with heavy metal. I think they would 🤘EFFING RAAAWK!!!🤘as usual.

[@RyanBright-wg1yk]

Achievement unlocked: Racism Currently in the same league as humans, chimpanzees & ravens.

[@a.r.h9919]

Racism is not human only thing, smart animals are known to have such inclinations the only real difference is that humans are smart enough on how to industrialise it

[@ilovethe80s71]

Can they interbreed?

[@nickq8093]

doesn't really matter. As taxonomy is a human concept not a natural one it isn't closely enough linked to the natural mechanisms of genetics and reproduction to give hard boundaries as speciation is occuring. As a result modern speciation is determined by scientific consensus over evidence of difference, as well as whether it's likely that populations will continue to diverge, not any hard rules around genetics or reproduction.

[@90enemies]

Being able to interbreed or not is very important aside from genetic difference if they don't then well Humans classification going to need some changes since we also have different diets, languages, physical characteristics, and culture ​@@nickq8093

[@CryptoJordanVR]

I'm sorry, they "proposed"? Don't we need more concrete evidence? Like, say, genetics?

[@nathanandsugar5252]

The genetics are not different. It's the expression. The populations don't/rarely mix. Then you have a new subspecies or species.

[@attilatheone3406]

Yes. Everything in science presented is a proposal. Sometimes you'll publish something, with well presented evidence, and others won't accept or use the newly proposed thing for whatever reason. And as it turns out, species aren't really a real thing in biology, so in extant groups they're one of the most subjective, heavily debated topics.

[@aleksanderpopov5060]

thanks now im going to think about orcas all day

[@ACommunistTungsten]

Orca races

[@Zthrox116]

so im going to be that guy; should different races of humans also be categorized at different species than? or does it not apply in the same way? I'm not trying to be confrontational (even tho it sounds like I am) I'm genuinely curious

[@nickq8093]

speciation is dictated by scientific consensus, and part of the meaningful thing here is that there is no current reason to believe these populations will mingle such to represent a single population again. Part of the proposal is based on the reasonable prediction that these populations will continue to diverge. humans mingle and interbreed between races all the time, there is no reasonable prediction of divergence and if anything the point of greatest divergence between members of our species is well behind us.

[@Zthrox116]

@@nickq8093 oohh alright that makes sense. thanks friend! I appreciate it!

[@geekygamer_69420]

At this point different races of humans will end up being different speices

[@censorsstarve]

Vegans should be a different species 🤣

[@nickq8093]

lol no. humans are homogenizing physically and culturally and mingle all the time. the opposite is true for these orcas. that makes a big difference.

[@Sentientdreamer]

What will they name the dead ones?

[@archy8822]

They should do DNA testing to see if multiple populations of orcas interbreed and whether or not their offpring can reproduce themselves. Because if they can and do interbreed we have the same situation as some sharks where multiple populations have some genetic exchanges but are still separated species.

[@feuerling]

The ecotypes (the different distinct populations of orcas) don't interbreed or even really interact, as far as is known. They probably could, but they just don't. Which is quite unfortunate for the southern residents, because their genetic diversity is declining due to human activity, when they could just interbreed with the other populations in their range to recover.

[@uutsii]

🤓🤔interesting

[@nickq8093]

In this comment section: people not understanding taxonomy

[@ViolentNightshade]

These are my local populations 💜

[@MrKylemu1000]

So we either have to admit they are the same thing, or say they’re different species and do the same for humans ?

[@michaeljarvis5489]

Oh no, don't stir up the human thing. But, yeah it looks exactly like that.

[@attilatheone3406]

I don't think so. A buddy of mine from grad school and I had this conversation a few years back. I think the big thing with orcas is that they just don't appear to be interbreeding at all. You can't say the same for humans, as we interbreed with different cultures, races, continents, etc, all the time.

[@oxy-moron_]

Isn't the differentiating factor being able to breed and have healthy, fertile children? If they can still breed they are the same species. (In most cases)

[@dragonborn8937]

There things called hybrids which are two different species being able to breed, so I don’t see your point?

[@tamayako2000]

Many species can breed with different species. Polar bears with brown bears, steller's jays and blue jays, donkeys and horses, lions and tigers, etc.. The rule of thumb is that if they're in the same genus, they can breed, though this isn't always the case, like with the "wholphin," a hybrid between a bottlenose dolphin and false killer whale, which aren't in the same genus. The downside to hybrids is that they're almost always infertile, unhealthy, or both, which I think is caused by the genetic differences between the parents. (this isnt meant to be an "um actually" i swear, I'm just super passionate this kind of stuff and like to ramble about it lol)

[@michaeljarvis5489]

​@tamayako2000 All that shows that we should throw out the "able to breed and produce fertile offspring" as being meaningful for classification. If this was used as a true way to classify species, we will have a lot fewer species of new world colubrid snakes, even fewer genera. Also, the whole thing brings up a point that most people miss or lose, and that is that organisms are whatever they are and the concept of all these taxa is purely in our minds. A way to make sense of what we see, and talk about more precisely. These Orcas seem, to me, a non expert on marine mammals, to be too similar to be divided more finely than what we call subspecies. DNA analysis should be looked at here. The splitters may have a case, but outward appearance of these guys very similar. The white blotch behind the eye and the saddle marks are interesting at least.

[@atronachh]

Dogs, coyotes and wolves are all different species but they can all mix and produce fertile offspring

[@nickq8093]

@@michaeljarvis5489 > All that shows that we should throw out the "able to breed and produce fertile offspring" as being meaningful for classification. this is already the case. It's just that the basic biology teaching people get is REALLY behind the times.

[@vandalman8]

If they can breed and produce fertile offspring, then they aren't a different species.

[@feuerling]

Polar bears and grizzlies are not the same species, even though they can produce fertile offspring.

[@vandalman8]

@@feuerling good point, but the general definition of species is the ability to produce fertile offspring.

[@Teutius]

But humans are all the same species though?

[@NeilDegrasseTysonWithAKatana]

Yup

[@johnnyregep4169]

orcacism

[@Fl4ppers]

What if they're not a species but a race?

[@censorsstarve]

Imagine having this discussion about people. Vegans are a different species because they have a different diet. Or, more realistically, people saying it about different races are really different species of people.

[@NeilDegrasseTysonWithAKatana]

"Race" is not a real taxon unlike species, subspecies or genus for exemple

[@Ayestosea]

Gingers...brunettes...I see where you are going here.

[@jonathanparker2369]

Is this advocacy altering hitherto accepted precepts. Will we apply this to humans for example? Should we? I’m a 50 year old manual worker, I don’t know but i sense there is a lot of emotion at work in the culture affecting perception.

[@nickq8093]

> but i sense there is a lot of emotion at work in the culture affecting perception. nah, basically the proposal is presenting evidence that "these populations are divergent, are diverging, and the evidence suggests they will continue to diverge, eventually being unable to interbreed" cultural divergence is important as it's the greatest predictor of how likely these populations are to resume mingling in the future. If they are continuing to diverge, the likelyhood of regular interbreeding becoming a thing decreases. The reason all that means we might decide to classify them as different species is because interbreeding doesn't make things the same species. Dogs, coyotes and wolves can all viably hybridise but they are different species, same with all citrus fruits.

[@pedrogabrielduarte4544]

Only genetic evidence Will tell

[@adh...lemonwaffles5660]

So these animals cannot crossbreed with each other?

[@feuerling]

The different ecotypes don't really interact, even where their habitats overlap. But being able to breed isn't a good defining factor for what makes a species, because dogs and coyotes aren't the same species, polar bears and brown bears, or tiger salamanders and axolots. (They all produce fertile hybrids.) Then there are ring species, and I won't even go into plants, citrus is just ridiculous. Hybrids of hybrids. Basically, if two populations of organisms can't breed, they're not the same species. But even if they can interbreed, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are the same species - it works in one direction, but not the other.

[@adh...lemonwaffles5660]

@@feuerling thank you for that information, I get very confused when it comes to species but then again I can’t make sense of anything that isn’t simple 😂

[@NeilDegrasseTysonWithAKatana]

​@@adh...lemonwaffles5660 to be fair *everybody* is confused with species including scientists themselves, that's why we have like 5 different definition for that term... and that none of them really work at all lmao

[@bostonmeadhorn4897]

Im not shocked considering snapping turtles in different rivers are genetically different too

[@kacywatson6314]

I don’t think it’s distinctive speak to you I just think it’s more to do with like regional race because let’s face a European or white European and a black African but it comes to humans that’s considered to be the same species but look vastly different even they’re dying behaviour is a little bit different as well

[@NeilDegrasseTysonWithAKatana]

The thing is that the proposed "human races" are not practical (actually, they are even actively IMpractical) because of a lack of monophyly whereas these orca populations are most likely monophyletic

[@demonorse]

Ridiculous. Humans also look & speak different.

[@feuerling]

Different human populations interbreed, mingle, and communicate with each other. Orcas don't. Give it enough time and they will become unable to interbreed, but with humans that won't happen unless we get to another planet.

[@zdogs7934]

Different orcas have shown to prefer hunting certain prey, some prefer to hunt other Wales and some prefer fish

[@romanpaladino]

Yes. But I don't think that's enough to make them different species.

[@zdogs7934]

@romanpaladino no but combined with the different shapes,sizes and patterns it certainly suggests the possibility and the need for more research

[@Ragatokk]

Ah yes, orcas are different species ofc. But humans, there are no differences at all.

[@isaacmiles804]

Ur a different species, a rare type of human incapable of simple google searches and understanding simple concepts.

[@NeilDegrasseTysonWithAKatana]

The thing is that the proposed human races are impractical because none of them are monophyletic unlike these orca populations

[@atronachh]

Just like the different species of humans

[@NeilDegrasseTysonWithAKatana]

There is a single extant species in the genus Homo tho, unless you are taking extinct smecies into account as well

[@richb2229]

Which ones are sinking small sailing ships?

[@dripdrop9787]

Has anyone asked what the orcas Wana be called??

[@stowlicters8362]

funny how animals with most minute differences can be different species BUT NOT RACE

[@XoXALEXoX]

I hate these things

[@seancssu]

Bro just casually explained eugenics 💀 people have variation too, doesn’t mean we can’t reproduce and are different species lol

[@nickq8093]

the difference is that humans do intermingle all the time. even largely seperate human populations are becoming genetically, physiologically and culturally more homogeneous. There is 0 chance of some human populations gradually becoming unable to interbreed in the future. these orcas populations do not mingle, they are becoming genetically more distant over time and are culturally diverging, making the likelyhood of interbreeding becoming a regular thing less and less likely as time goes on. Essentially part of the argument for speciation is that them becoming gradually unable to interbreed in the future is the most supported prediction. whether some populations can produce viable offspring at current day does not mean they are the same species. dogs, wolves and coyotes can viably interbreed, so can all citrus fruits, but we rightly call them different species.

[@seancssu]

@@nickq8093 homie hasn’t met the tiny hat people yet, they say interbreeding is the equivalent to fucking a cow

[@orizonge1478]

this.....brings in a lot of questions about race. maybe we shouldnt make the same animal two separate species just because they speak different languages and have slightly different visual appearances. humans are not above taxonomy. i cant see this going well.

[@feuerling]

Are humans on earth going to genetically diverge over the eons? Or are we going to become more similar to each other? Because these orcas don't interbreed, so they will diverge further and further.

[@nocapstreet8291]

Eastern North Pacific? Isn’t that an oxymoron lol?

[@censorsstarve]

No, it is to say the eastern part of the North Pacific. Is calling the east coast of North America an oxymoron since its North American continent? It's pretty simple to follow that you can sub divide areas that have already been divided. You can even have the southern North Atlantic, and it will not be an oxymoron since you are referring to the southern part of the North Atlantic.

[@nathanandsugar5252]

TB clear, they can all still breed without issue. But populations that develop different lifestyles, niches, etc. become like races of person. There is no biological reason why a Nigerian man and a Norwegian women can't have children, but obviously you can't procreate over Zoom. You need: 1) Phyical proximity and 2) willingness to breed These changes can happen over very short time scales.

[@nickq8093]

nah, the main thing on that front is that the most reasonable prediction is that these orca populations will continue to diverge physically and culturally, and are unlikely to mingle genetically at all. humans are if anything, homogenizing physically and culturally due to mingling all the time all over the place.

[@boobyliciousandangry7172]

Are people not also this way?

[@nickq8093]

the orca populations are diverging physically and culturally and do not mingle. humans are homogenizing physically and culturally and mingle all the time all over the place. that makes a big difference when it comes to taxonomical classification.

[@boobyliciousandangry7172]

@nickq8093 There are many isolated populations of people

[@nickq8093]

@@boobyliciousandangry7172 while true, there's also native amazonian tribes wearing modern clothes made in china. there's no reason to believe even the most isolated populations of people will remain isolated for anywhere near long enough to become unable to interbreed with other humans.

[@NeilDegrasseTysonWithAKatana]

​​@@nickq8093 and most importantly: these different populations of orcas are actually monophyletic (or at least are very likely to be) whereas most proposed human "races" are paraphyletic (for exemple, native americans should be included with the proposed "asian race" if we were to actually make that distinction and try to actually make it monophyletic)