Discussing our FI Numbers : Changing our minds, talking to family

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

We enjoyed exploring a number of areas in this discussion. Two key ones for us: how our thinking changed over time regarding what our post-FIRE lifestyles would look like, and how challenging it can be to talk with friends and family about financial matters. What do you think? Is money discussed openly among your own circles?

[@TalkToMeGoose550]

I just discovered this channel. What a refreshing set of interviews. Very cool! I'm in my early 50's and wasn't financially savvy at a younger age so didn't save much but I have a "retire when I am 60" plan so it was nice to listen to these interviews. Great job guys!

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Welcome aboard, Dan! We're glad you've fund us and that you're enjoying the content. Best wishes to you on your own journey to retirement!

[@nadia.lewis.]

Money talk is so cultural! Sitting in cafés in Vancouver, you’ll often here people openly discuss their finances. It gives my American husband hives though, like worse than if they took all their clothes off. 🤣

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Ha! Completely agreed. I’ve had friends tell me the same thing. It’s fascinating to me how different our behavior can be depending on where we grew up.

[@swatigee]

Interesting comment. My husband and I are Canadians and when we moved here years ago, we noticed that Americans don’t talk about finances like Canadians do.

[@carolineg3079]

And Brits don't talk about finance nearly as much as Americans 😆

[@idiocracyishere4531]

The poorer you are the less you think about it because it’s painful. People in the US are ignorant as can be about money.

[@Erginartesia]

I blame corporate America for creating this discord .. all part of their battle against unions.

[@garyolsen3741]

Achieved FIRE at 47. 62 now. No regrets. Unburden yourself from the concept of “annual income”. 72T works.

[@kashtech835]

The part where you discussed the sitation to your parents and they were just happy for you having agency over your life just makes me so happy. It's what I'd love to share with my mom and also what I'd love to hear from my kid ... although it's probably a long ways away now since my daughter is just less than two years old now.

[@wineguy68]

Just came across this channel and really like the format. It’s scary how spot on the questions concerns and decisions are to what im going through. Im just turning 53… close to 30 years in a tech company, Fatfire NW but still struggling to make the decision to step away. I hope you continue the channel and get more followers.

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Jason here - Thanks, Wade! We appreciate the feedback. Stepping away is a very real thing and we all have to come to that decision in our own time. I'll freely admit it wasn't easy to step away from my career at the peak of my earnings - particularly given that I enjoyed the work and the people I worked with. In the end it was easy-ish because I knew there was more I wanted to do that I couldn't while work. It was only the money that was holding me back mentally. Once I got past that it was easy. Best wishes to you!

[@AW-ff6jz]

Guys, this conversation is excellent and much appreciated. It arrives at a good time for us too. I appreciate the emotional and personal struggle element of the conversation but I'd love to request a real deep dive into the nuts and bolts of how you figured your number, strategy and approach to FI. Most of us who are listening at this point, have already bought into the concept. The tool page is great, I've already started with it, but a step by step view would be VERY VALUABLE and much appreciated by some of us out here, nerding out and REALLY wanting to make it happen, but lacking all of the right paths.

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Thanks, A W. We really appreciate the feedback. How did you feel about the level of detail in the episode prior to this one (“So What’s Your FIRE Number?”)? In any case, please stay tuned. We’ve got lots more planned on content like you are seeking. Thank you very much for checking us out! We wish you all the best on your own FIRE journey.

[@lukasgiefing1102]

@@TwoSidesOfFI I think varying levels of detail are important. so kudos again guys

[@AW-ff6jz]

@@TwoSidesOfFI I found the previous video overview that you mentioned and it’s detail to be wonderful. I appreciated the discussion a great deal and wanted to go even deeper. At least from my perspective, I’d welcome more finer discussions like that... on things like, running models, finding an investment advisor that really understands FI and goals. Some I’ve spoken with seem uninformed on FIRE. Also understanding that no size fits all, it’s interesting to hear how you guys differ in your approach and thinking on the details, Thanks guys! Keep it up.

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Thanks for the feedback, A W!

[@Erginartesia]

I hear you guys on feeling weird! My best friend retired (by force) 14 years ago (yep.. right in the middle of the 2008 crash); whereas I’ve retired this year. For her, she didn’t prepare enough.. I don’t think she saw it coming. I, on the other hand, am retiring in another scary economic time, but I have spent 10 years preparing. I have no idea what her financial standing it, but likely it’s scary.. point is, it’s nearly impossible to talk to her about $. And I’ll tell you something else, that veil of communication ALSO puts stress on the friendship. Your dearest fiend should not have taboo areas of communication.

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Hi Ergin, thanks for the comment - and congratulations on your retirement! You're definitely speaking from a position of experience. Many things would be so much easier if we could always talk openly without fear of negative outcomes. best wishes to you and your best friend.

[@yestohappiness2721]

Mine doubled too! Even though I budgeted for 10 yrs and knew what we were spending on. But we are expat-ting so I didn't know what to expect for living expenses abroad, including travel back to see our kids and them coming to us (us paying for their travel since they are still in college) etc... So I'm 2x to 2.5x of my original x dollar assumption after 2 exploratory trips abroad.

[@carolineg3079]

These chats are so good combining the emotional and financial. I'm thinking about 4% withdrawal with some back up plans. A lot will depend on your age. Every older person I know late 70s or older spends less spends less on leisure/travel than they did at 60 so you can live comfortably on less later. My sister works for a financial advisor and this backs up her experience also.

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Thanks very much! We appreciate your support. Withdrawal rate is certainly an individual preference as risk tolerance is a major component. There's merit to what you say for sure. That said, ensuring you have flexibility to change your SWR if circumstances dictate is also a great idea. Best wishes to you.

[@JW-fh1en]

My toxic trait is watching and getting excited about your videos while having 4 kids 😂

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

😂

[@JW-fh1en]

@@TwoSidesOfFI a guy can dream!

[@kevinkanter2537]

ahh even the Money Guys' FOO for sis ... great 😃

[@Erginartesia]

Do you guys use New Retirement? I’d love to hear your weigh in on that tool, especially since you have use financial advisors.

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Jason here - I've used it for about a year now, and I do like it. Pretty high level of functionality and the paid option adds in some nice modeling + other features. We have it linked in the Resources page but haven't yet done an episode digging into it. But we may!

[@kevinkanter2537]

great --- "you're such an engineer" --- LOL ..... and later #32:10 talking about changing relationships and what to talk about ... 'achieving that activation energy' -- such a biochem reaction kinetics phrasing for such a persona topic ---- arms-length --- and then the reaction - huh .... so relevant and soooo well-done congratulations (yes, i've subscribed) Note: i'm definitely FI though at 70 (68 is NOT RE) still trying to learn how to increase my withdrawal rate from 2.6 when given my FI # it can be around 5-7% ; identifying decision points in funding parts of a lifestyle cash flow is so challenging. PS - so glad i found your channel.

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Thanks, Kevin! So glad you are enjoying it. We thank you for your support!

[@potatoesandgravy7021]

Can we just take a moment to appreciate Jason's shirt? 😊

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

RIP Li'l Sebastian ❤️

[@potatoesandgravy7021]

@@TwoSidesOfFI Best. Reply. Ever. Love this channel. Thanks for sharing all your knowledge and experiences!

[@ericb2872]

love the channel guys.

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Thanks, Eric!

[@bradleylocke4336]

Thanks guys,love your chats.Fire for me was about 5 years ago.With your skills and easy demeanour you should think about trying to get this into main stream schooling,people should be learning this from their first pay check.Cheers Brad

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Thanks, Bradley! That's a great suggestion. Thanks for sharing it. Any lessons learned on your own journey to FIRE that you can share?

[@bradleylocke4336]

@@TwoSidesOfFI I find you both sometimes over complicate FIRE but it makes all of us think.My returns from my investments are approximately 140000 a year and my capital growth approximately 140000 a year.My withdrawal rate is zero.In 2023 I will begin a withdrawal rate of 2% giving us 180000 per year which we find is enough for us.Everyone is different,but my conclusion after 5 years is my wealth has increased and maybe I should have retired sooner.👍

[@bradleylocke4336]

@@joannabusinessaccount7293 Agree,keeping people spending and being ignorant of their finances keeps the treadmill going.

[@davepring7504]

Where did Jason eat? French Laundry and where else? What's Jason's favorite Michelin Starred restaurant??? By the way, you two are inspirational!!! Love watching Eric’s channel! My wife and I are on our way to FI. But may take a while. Thank you for helping our planning with your talks!!!

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Admittedly I've been to a few - most recently (pre-COVID), Benu in SF. That was very nice. Hmm... my favorite overall irrespective of # of stars? Tricky. Thinking about 3* restaurants, we really liked Restaurant at the Meadowood (3* - St. Helena, CA) and hope they recover after the loss they experienced in the CA wildfires. But my all-time favorite? It might be Gastrologik (2* - Stockholm, Sweden). It's just wonderful and not too difficult to get a reservation - for now, at least. The quality and diversity of courses offered vs. price is an outstanding value. What's your favorite? -Jason

[@davepring7504]

Haven’t been to one, sadly. Especially if we’re working on being FI! Hahahaha. But if we were to go to one, we’d like to go to Massimo Bottura’s Osteria Francesca. We think not only would the food be great but meeting the chef would be awesome!!! Keep it up! Maybe you can show some of your culinary adventures to those restaurants. It can be another channel, diff content for diff audience?

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Indeed, it is far more fiscally responsible to avoid starred restaurants! Your suggestion is a great one. I hope you get to go there for a special occasion someday. I love the idea of sharing my culinary adventures. I need to focus in other areas presently but I will keep that one on my list of possibilities going forward. Thanks! -Jason

[@chadteeples4472]

Just found you guys. What about conversations with your kids? Or any home education about FI with kids? I’ve personally become totally transparent with my kids and we learn together about budgeting, saving, investing and it’s been very good.

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Welcome to the channel, Chad! This is an excellent point. Both of us agree that transparency is best. Our teens are admittedly not super interested in the nuts and bolts of what we do, but they sort of understand the why. There are some comments on this point in some of the earlier videos. Great job educating your team! Assuredly they will be all the better for it.

[@chadteeples4472]

@@TwoSidesOfFI thank you I watched the video with kids comments earlier this evening. My wife and I started an annual match up to $1200 per kid for a period of 10 years. The youngest two (19 and 21) have jumped in with both feet and are both fast approaching 5 figures already. All 6 have started a Roth and are contributing in their 20’s. We’ve told them it will be easier for us to hep them now vs in our later life (and they have time on their side). I’m loving your conversation type approach to your channel. I find myself talking along in the car as I listen on my commute. Best of luck on your respective journeys

[@michaelg1778]

The comments made by Eric about how to stay engaged and relevant (for lack of a better term) after you've stopped working was an interesting topic. For an architect (Eric) who also produces content for a KZbin channel, how does that content adapt to no longer having projects being designed/built. Now, Eric's channel is obviously more than just project specific videos or him doing site visits during construction, but does being less involved in the architecture game eventually move him away from architecture-related content and more into general design-focused content? Like he said, if you step away from architecture over time you can easily lose some of that knowledge and the skills that you once had (as is the case in other career fields too). I just recently started working as an architect so I keep using Eric as a basis for everything, but the idea of eventually designing maybe one or two houses per year then putting the rest of my time into other skills and interests sounds amazing but it also seems incredibly difficult (and quite scary, actually). To get to that point where you can actually focus on fewer projects at work and build up your other income generators that will eventually sustain you into the future, and then remaining engaged and relevant to keep it all moving after you stop working, is an impressive thing to accomplish.

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Hi, Michael- Eric here, answering...appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Life is a struggle to remain relevant, right? I try to embrace change and the opportunities that naturally accompany it. The last thing I'd want to do is stagnate. So, for me, a willingness to always reevaluate and reimagine is crucial to my success as a content creator, an architect, a writer, photographer or whatever other hyphenated identity I'm assuming this month! I love the idea that I don't really know what's next - for the channel or the business - I think it's natural for it to evolve. I'm driven by the need to make things and that can take many forms. Cheers...thanks for joining (us) for the journey!

[@brenda9643]

Hi Guys - Congratulations on the podcast and KZbin videos. It's been helpful to me to find people interested in this, and I appreciate the tools and conversation. A couple of questions: 1) Social connection - work provides a social construct. Have you considered how to replace that loss of social construct if you retire early? 2) Purpose - especially in the US, where work/career is a form of identity, have you considered the need to reformulate your identity post FIRE? Thanks for your thoughts.

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Hi Brenda, first - thank you! We're glad to learn that you are finding our content helpful. Your questions are excellent, and I'm happy to take a stab at them. This is Jason responding here. 1) You are 100% right. I may have made reference to this in a video and I've definitely written about it on my blog. Leaving the friend network at work behind is real and I absolutely do feel it as a loss. Of course I'm keeping in regular contact with those with whom I was closest, and have even seen a few in person - not possible for many months due to COVID. But of course it's not the same. As for what to do going forward? Well, it's doubly tough as we moved to a new area. So my family and I have the task of building a new friend group. We tend to have the best success via meting people with shared interests. For example, my wife and I are both avid beer homebrewers. So we will likely start a homebrew club, or have some Meetups around that. We also volunteer at a few places, and this may be somewhere we can connect with people. Lastly, we have also made friends while out wine tasting! 2) This is another great topic and one that many of the retirement bloggers rightfully cover frequently. I always felt my work was an important aspect of who I was, but I wouldn't say it defined me. For me, I find purpose in the relationships I have, the impact I can make on the world, and getting fulfillment from my actions. With COVID, I have been rather inward-focused, building skills and trying out new ideas. This has been a great way to spend my new found freedom to spend my time as I choose. I've also found a lot of fulfillment and purpose volunteering at our local vaccine clinic. It's only a start, and I'd definitely like to do more charitable work. Lastly, writing and working on this KZbin channel has been really rewarding. There is so much interest in FIRE and related topics, and I get a lot out of engaging with the community about them. This is far from my sole focus, but it is something I truly enjoy putting energy into and am hopeful others might benefit from this work. Thanks again for the great questions!

[@InvestToLive]

Ok, first time finding you. Great job on the interview. Thanks for posting!

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Thanks so much! Welcome, and thanks for your support.

[@vulpixelful]

Thanks for teasing out some of your incorrect assumptions in the beginning. Definitely more relatable. In the US, even "disaster" when you're elderly isn't the worse thing. Elderly people vote, so senior benefits won't budge too much, even more so if you're really low income. Thankfully, we're not living in a country that completely depends on individuals to take care of the senior population. In those countries, treatment of seniors gets worse as the opportunities for young people get worse.

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Thanks

[@agusus]

When you say you use 7% return in the models, is that real rate of return or non-inflation adjusted? I don't use these models (I trust in the 3.5-4% strategy design enough that I don't need more custom modeling) and 7% is probably close enough either way, but I do feel it's important to always distinguish between real and nominal values. 7% is somewhat high for real return in the long-term stock market history (50+ years), although it has held in more recent history (30y); it remains to be seen whether that's a "new normal" or an aberration.

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

These days we're guided primarily by historic returns rather than any given projection by asset class. If you've not checked out our series on the Safe Withdrawal Rate Toolbox, that's a great starting point. twosidesoffi.com/toolbox/

[@wayneandrews1022]

Loved the Chevy Chase SNL reference.

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Thanks, Wayne! It’s a favorite.

[@stinkyfeet6047]

i love your content! keep it up :)

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Thanks!

[@threenines95]

How do you do Monte Carlo simulations? Is there a web service that helps with this?

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

There are a number of them, actually! One of our favorites is called cFIREsim. We discuss it in our most recent video. Here's a link to the show notes and video from our website: twosidesoffi.com/answering-your-financial-independence-questions/

[@Smalltime]

Is there a website with links for those good tools you mentioned?

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Stefan, yes there is! There is a link in the Description to it as well: twosidesoffi.com/resources/

[@Smalltime]

@@TwoSidesOfFI oh, great! thanks for that. ps., what's your number!? 😂

[@amitjain3323]

How much are the healthcare premiums in California for a four person family? Please share your numbers if you can as there are these confusing numbers from several health care company like Kaiser vs United vs different PPOs

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Best advice is to plug in your own numbers at the free calculator on CoveredCA.com

[@DMC8282]

My mom understood when she saw my personal capital app lol

[@paulbrown5937]

Does the 4% imply you will be out after 30 years or is that the worst case scenario? My goal is to know that I'm gaining money during retirement over inflation so my nest egg grows each year.

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Running out of cash early is the worst case scenario. Some aim to die with zero, though many want to leave a legacy. In the end you just need to ensure whatever withdrawal rate you choose, that it matches your goals. One good + easy way to model portfolio longevity at any withdrawal rate is using tools like cFIREsim. You can find a link to it under Resources on twosidesoffi.com

[@knut8062]

Wow…it’s like discovering coffee buddies with a side of FI.

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Ha! I guess that’s what you get when we’ve known each other for 35 years, since we were 13 years old. Thanks for watching

[@wirtschaft12]

You can never step into the same river twice.

[@Hristifor1]

"activation energy" -not a surprising expression from a biotechnologist :D

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

it's such a useful expression!

[@erinaustin9968]

Do you feel your parents are secure in their retirement?

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

Jason here - that's a great question, Erin. Without getting into too much personal details, yes. My parents are divorced and while their situations are quite different by several different measures, each has a plan.

[@robertm.-certifieddaytrade4939]

What all due respect, you guys are truly in la-la land when it comes to the reality of most Americans financial situation, which only proves you are both financial outliers and don’t realize it!! According to the social security Administration, the average salary in America is $33,000, it only in the coastal regions that salaries are significantly higher. When you have a mortgage and your wife is a stay at home mom caring for 2 kids and you’re making $33,000 even SUPER-LEAN FIRE can NOT accomplish the target! Robert from daytradingwiththelight

[@TwoSidesOfFI]

We're both from very modest means, a topic we've discussed multiple times on the show, and grew up in areas with a pretty high poverty rate. So in fact we have plenty of perspective and have acknowledged the privilege of our present positions. It's a real thing! That said, plenty of people are achieving FI with very modest salaries, albeit often living in lower COL areas (which could include employing geoarbitrage), maintaining more modest livestyles, and retiring at later time points than others on the FIRE path. There are many potential paths but of course they must fit both one's means and goals.

[@robertm.-certifieddaytrade4939]

@@TwoSidesOfFI I appreciate your candor and your awareness that your financial positions leveraged your ability to achieve FI is a relatively shorter time than someone earning what the social security admin considers average. Stay safe and stay blessed! Robert-

[@donaldlyons17]

Yeah but many on KZbin are odd yet don't seem to realize how stuff works for others. But think of it this way if one is always lucky how can they know others will not also be lucky? When I used to assume everyone can live on $600 a month I was not being realistic now was I? WELL HECK NO I WAS LIVING IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE!!!!