Ultimate Water Guide for Return of Rome! (AoE2)

[@AgeofNoob]

Welcome everyone! This is the final part - Part IV - of my Guide series for Return of Rome, and you can find the rest below. Thank you for watching as always - cheers! • Part I: Fundamentals & Economy: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4qWZ56Brr2aepY • Part II: Buildings & Technologies: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Zn_Mh2aug6pgi6s • Part III: Military & Combat: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bn6rqquMmMyhhq8

[@MrMerlinAOE]

missing Part 4 or part 3 is miss named

[@AgeofNoob]

@@MrMerlinAOE Ah yes, it was a typo - thanks Merlin!

[@AgeofNoob]

@@jimmyorgenkaccrow4961 I believe I watched it in a video SOTL covered. Perhaps that could serve as inspo to the devs. :)

[@DtemplarK]

I 100% agree that Return of Rome should embrace it's status as AoE 1.5 and try some experimental changes in certain lackluster areas that they wouldn't allow themselves to do in AoE1 DE for fear of killing the original game feel.

[@AgeofNoob]

Indeed - they did that in AoE2DE with the introduction of fire galleys and demo rafts in the Feudal Age. Not saying AoE2's water is in a perfect state, but it's so much better than what it was originally back in Age of Kings. They have to introduce new units on water in RoR if they want any semblance of high level competition on water maps.

[@jonasklose6472]

​@@AgeofNoob Even on land, civ differences make it hard to play some games. Maybe they should split the game into a classic mode for campaigns and nostalgia and introduce a new tech and unit tree that's optimized for competitive play?

[@AgeofNoob]

@@jonasklose6472 I'm not sure that's viable tbh - Age of Empires IV does that and it's super confusing. Balancing the game properly is just an easier way of ensuring uniformity across the board, especially since AoE doesn't suffer from the huge pro play/casual discrepancy like Dota or League of Legends does.

[@jonasklose6472]

@@AgeofNoob That could be confusing, yes. Though this would really create a new game. And for my taste, I'd like more changes in UI and graphics to get this expansion even closer to what I played as a kid. I still miss the beautiful old berry bushes...

[@AgeofNoob]

@@jonasklose6472 We're together on the old visuals - AoE DE looks miles better than Return of Rome, and it's not even close.

[@lloydlejack-official]

I still believe there should be an upgrade to both the slinger and the camel rider and i also agree with you that water balance is required. Age of Mythology (minus the myth units) is a good basis on how to do water balance on an ancient setting in a similar fashion to AoE2.

[@habibainunsyifaf6463]

What was its water units counters again? Melee ship > heavy range > light range > melee?

[@jonasklose6472]

Yeah, that's my impression too. Slingers are OK for early game fights, especially for destroying buildings and towers. Though their stone cost do make them a rare choice. And I've never used camels as they feel like a dead end.

[@llSuperSnivyll]

Rather than the lack of Castles, I'd say that it's defensive structures lacking any kind of bonus damage against ships what makes sieging with regular Triremes viable.

[@JazzJackrabbit]

Maybe they could make a ramming ship in an update? This was a very common tactic in the Ancient world, after all.

[@martytu20]

Age of Mythology had fire ship>siege ship>arrow ship triangle.

[@se6369]

Even though I feel the game should be very similar to AOE1, i agree. Good idea. For the iron age I presume though, right?

[@jonasklose6472]

Nice to see someone else having this idea, too. I think there's some appeal to this train of thought.

[@satyakisil9711]

In the alpha there was a concept to make a ramming ship which would convert other ships at sea using a capture mechanic. That was redesigned to the fire galley in ror.

[@jonasklose6472]

@@satyakisil9711 Only that fire galleys require throwing an oil mixture and are hardly possible in the stone or tool age. So ramming ships are at least a possibility from the second age onwards.

[@quasibrodo923]

You know, if the Romae Ad Bellum mod creators could pivot to ROR, then I think not only would that be more fitting thematically, but could be a proving ground for how to improve water in aoe2.

[@raynightshade8317]

Be removing Unique Techs, Unique Units and toning down the bonuses? I dont see how that would help.

[@quasibrodo923]

@@raynightshade8317 Hey, maybe I'm misunderstanding something but I think you replied to the wrong comment.

[@darrennorniron]

You should expand the series to look at Civs etc, its been very helpful

[@jonasklose6472]

Fixing water could be a challenging job. Maybe ram ships that deal heavy damage when they impact on other ships would be historical accurate. They could also suffer damage for each hit, similar to demolition ships.

[@epicseadragon1692]

The discussion no water balance is so relevant: Minoans for instance are sooooo OP on pure island cause they can outproduce you and outlast you for so long. You would think that maybe priests could be an answer but I remember that in the OG game, ships were more resistant to conversion (is it still the case btw? would need to check...)

[@AgeofNoob]

That's right - Minoans still have 30% cheaper ships AND have 20% cheaper docks as a team bonus. I suppose I should've mention some of those Civs in the video as well - some matchups are so one-sided it's not even funny. It's basically unplayable against them in general on water, and especially 1v1s.

[@jonasklose6472]

​@@AgeofNoob There are also some civs that are harder on land. Like when you have no access to priests at all for healing and conversion. AoE1 was set before strategy games were optimized through balancing.

[@Tamamo-no-Bae]

@@AgeofNoob Yeah, this is why I was hoping for a part 5 that went into the civs. xD I main Yamato and it'd be interesting to get an overview of each civ so I know how to deal with some matchups.

[@magesticalmysterium6856]

there IS A Historical Basis for the Minoans having a good naval though, and though Age of Empires is also Competitive, the Historical References that Do exist aught to be Preserved, (even if they are nerfed, do Not Remove their Water Bonuses)

[@zaftnotameni]

honestly i much prefer the raw brute force water play from old AOE than the rock paper scissors mechanics of late

[@antiochrecords9283]

Great series. Hope the devs see this and correct this water oversight.

[@jonasklose6472]

Well, it's not so much am oversight as it's just working as intended. That's just like AoE1 played out. You do have a decent chance to clear some ships with archers, but that's all.

[@Aaahrg]

I play this game since my childhood so I don't even know why I watched this. Good content tho and nice touch with the Skyrim music while the dragon flies in.

[@Schproemftell]

For one the tower Upgrade for 150% damage against Ships woulf be good And a more feshed out Rock paper scissors System for naval units would be welcome

[@astrid2432]

0:55 ah yes, the monkey, a well known water unit in AoE1

[@AgeofNoob]

Gotta squeeze in a Monkey or two every now and then 11

[@vodkavecz]

I wish there was a ramming ship in the game too, since that was the historically common tactic in the era. Have a ship that has the ability to ram, when doing so, it'll speed up and deal damage to an enemy ship and also get's stuck to it, immobilizing both. To kill a ship with a single ramming ship, you could load land units onto it, and then they'd destroy the ship you'd be attached to after the ramming in a short time. If both are ramming ships, then the quality of units packed on would decide who wins in a 1v1 situation. For realistic reason, you could only load non mounted units onto the ramming ship.

[@phucl244]

2:27 ohhhhh that's why I felt something was off when I returned to play AOE1 in this DLC.

[@Unormalism]

I'd be interested to see what ideas people have for fixing water. I assume you could do something pretty simple like; -Fire galleys one era earlier with appropriate stat changes -Add mangonel style catapult ship with splash damage that's good against clumped up groups but has a firing arc For the paper scissors rock of fast ship can dodge arcing projectiles easier. Tho, I'm not sure if it would really answer an enemy getting a lead. Without a castle to protect docks, its very hard to build a mass and recover. Without a dedicated anti-water defence/tech water will always be fairly separate from land interaction.

[@jonasklose6472]

It should still be historically accurate somehow. An idea would be ram ships.

[@jonasklose6472]

You can fight a bit back with mass archers on land.

[@BurnRoddy]

I love it. I can't say I'm not sas ir ended as I expected a civ by civ series.

[@easyyo6784]

that was a fantastik serie. well done!!

[@RennieAsh]

1:07 Clubman on the shore begs to differ

[@cristhianferreyra1563]

The thing you can do on the final example of the blue player, is focus on play defensive and advance quickly to bronze and build catapults and priests for scare the galleys and build towers not too close of the water, the idea is resist an invasion until you can build a navy... At least you are babylon. :v

[@Jourei_]

Oh dang, who the heck are _you_? I thought I was clicking on a spirit of the law video. :D Nice to find a new channel with AoE content.

[@daveoaktowers]

The water gameplay can be fun, but if your opponent outbuilds and pins you it is over, unless you can get out of the ships range. The main thing is to add gold into the building of triemere's, not a lot, maybe 20-40 gold even. As just building with wood with such a powerful ship which has no real counter makes some games very unbalanced. As no issue once gold runs out to use the market to get gold etc. Same as you would in AOE2

[@EliasHasle]

This seems reasonable when we have the AoE2 resource exchange in the market, and infinite gold from trade in team games.

[@DigiMatt52]

Thank you very much for this guide series! There's just one more thing that needs covered... A guide to finding RoR matched online 😆. Sometimes I can get a match in ranked, but there doesn't seem to be a way to filter custom games by RoR...?

[@mayoe1430]

Great video. Subbed

[@howcheeennnyxie9625]

juggernaut can face off against Trireme in large numbers as they have high atk and splash damages. also the ballistics give them accuracy making them different than cannon galleons. the ships are generally clumsy and in large numbers juggernaut can be very helpful

[@satyakisil9711]

Honestly I love the water detail from aoe de a lot more. The aoe 2 one looks like blueberry juice.

[@TheGoldeneye9]

I'd just like to know the music playing in your background that we can hear from 6:30 onward XD It's lovely

[@AgeofNoob]

Hello! It's *Kyne's Peace* from Skyrim's OST. :)

[@TheGoldeneye9]

@@AgeofNoob appreciate it, keep up the great work my guy

[@AgeofNoob]

@@TheGoldeneye9 Cheers :)

[@Evildood89]

You loose in water... Fort up and wonder up.

[@diablodelfuego6633]

They should've based this on the Roman mod from steam that converted the base Aoe2. It had forts and unique units and unique techs. It had over 6 different warships I think. Why didn't they just follow that one?

[@salmonseven5723]

Today I have tried to find a video about all civs in Return of Rome, their strong and weak sides, I could not find such a video.

[@samsylvianrayappan]

I don't even play the game, but my guy is interesting ❤️

[@drschwandi3687]

Having no castles/heated shot also means it is impossible to redock once you loose water control.

[@tomaskalocsai406]

not true, siege and ca can easy get you back on water.

[@AgeofNoob]

That's right - there's nothing substantial you can do on land to be able to re-dock early on.

[@AgeofNoob]

@@tomaskalocsai406 Technically, Priests can work as well, but the assumption here is that your opponent will kill you before you can even get to the Iron Age with all upgrades. If you fully lose control of water and the shorelines, it's extremely unlikely that you out-tech and out-produce your opponent. They'll eventually land and kill you off before it gets to the late game.

[@tomaskalocsai406]

@@AgeofNoob yes, but thats the same for AoE2. If you lose early water, you are basically dead. Very same scenario. You not gonna get castle up to get yourself on water and back in game due to castle. So again. Priests are more valid arguement than castles/ towers.

[@AgeofNoob]

@@tomaskalocsai406 That's not true mate - it's not just my opinion, as I suggest you watch some water/hybrid pro games. Tons of times high level players in tournaments were able to get back with good demos, and waiting for a mass of fire galleys - and it becomes a dance of how much you want to invest in saving your fish. Four Lakes games are good examples of this. Also, the aforementioned are all BEFORE the Castle Age. In Island based maps, Castle dropping a shoreline is 100% viable as well. Yes, if you lose water it's tough to get it back regardless, but there's still a chance or a play you can do to get it back. The point is that these types of counterplays are simply non-existent in AoE1/RoR.

[@et34t34fdf]

Some civs like Minoans and Yamato, are just too OP to contend with, if you don't play the same civs yourself.

[@vkkoorchester666]

thanks for the amazing content!

[@deoskipsbasics]

loved this serie! btw, what's the name of the song in the intro?

[@AgeofNoob]

It's a version of the Godfather Theme - which is basically an instrumental of the old song Speak Softly Love. :)

[@deoskipsbasics]

@@AgeofNoob sweet! Thanks a lot! ❤️

[@leow193]

I still have no idea why trees look so much better in AOE I DE than in AOE II DE

[@kwiiin_]

Thank you for the guides and also for mentioning female players. I have yet to come across another actual woman since I've been playing in 2010s, but it's always cool to hear I'm considered!

[@LordCoranhon]

The biggest mistery for me still is why hittites has only fishing boats

[@EliasHasle]

But they can kill all enemy fishing ships with their dominant navy...

[@muhammadnuralhafiz]

Don't you who I am? IM THE JUGGERNAUT SHIP

[@BadCow94]

I believe that AOE 1 is a much simpler game in comparisson to AOE 2 and has a lot of things that should/could be improved like not having a blacksmith or having the archery range units be upgrade with the wood upgrades, same with water, it needs a re-work and a rebalance, baiscally a kind of remake on the gameplay I guess?

[@CaptainGrimes1]

Can you move scenario maps created in the origijsl😮aoe1 into this version?

[@theclaudeqc3rdone290]

Isn't trade boats a tool age unit?

[@AgeofNoob]

Used to be - Trade is only Bronze Age onward on both land and water in Return of Rome. :)

[@coinerus7931]

Do you make a video about your demonetization to inform your viewers about it? I think it would be the best you can do.

[@H8Sd94]

Just add boarding ships

[@loopicc2130]

They shouldn’t have changed trade ships and should’ve changed the combat ships. Water is where they went wrong I believe.

[@Felipe_XIV-XVI]

If an AOE II DE player tells you that AOE I DE lacks "exciting water games" you need to listen. Because if AOE I DE can suck more than AOE II DE in water combat, that's because a Tetris game is more entertained.

[@kutejikashi1959]

Heh, glad I don't like water gameplay that much to begin with.

[@quaintserpent]

Catapult trireme should be available in bronze age and fire galley should have weaker version in Bronze Age. I like when there is only one upgrade per age not two. In Iron Age you have to research catapult trireme which is annoying. What's even more annoying are catapult trireme stats... seriously only 135 hp? War galley is much smaller ship and has 160 hp. Then there is its range matter which is horrific for a siege unit. There is sth else I would change. I would separate war galley from trireme because trireme is much better ship and should be gold cost unit as well as better armored. In one of aoe2 mods I saw sth like boarding ship which fills the role of monk on the water. It's ridiculous that single priest converts entire crew but unit like boarding ship would make more sense here. Perhaps devs should look closer to this mod "aoe2 Rome at war".

[@ParamecioLord]

So water balance on this game is a worse version of the second game water balance, which is also bad... Ok.

[@alter-nator]

Water combat in RoR is as weak as the vanilla one. I'm avoiding water maps entirely

[@viktor1337w]

return of rome is garbage. rome add war is way better. but somone how they broke ui mods. like sure

[@MatthiasLeath]

I am experiencing some sort of issue where there are no fish on any maps. Does anyone else have this issue, or know a fix?

[@St3v3NWL]

Problem with a 1:1 port of a 90s game is indeed it is very lackluster. They should add more content for 1.

[@quakethedoombringer]

While I agree with your statement, the problem is that a lot of "purist" fan will complain about "unwanted" changes because they are so used to the dated game mechanics and since hardcore gamers are the primary moneymakers when it comes to remasters, devs will be extremely conservative when it comes to adding potentially new content to avoid pissing off their fans