ULTIMATUM - How Marvel Destroyed the Ultimate Universe

[@joshualunn32]

The only good part was Spider-Man trying his damnedest to save people instead of joining this edgefest

[@joshualunn32]

Dig the heart, thanks Owen!

[@nopatiencejoe6376]

Well, Spiderman always were the only saving grace of the ultimate universe

[@joshualunn32]

@@nopatiencejoe6376 well ultimate fantastic four did give us marvel zombies. And tbh some of the X-Men stuff was good, especially Jimmy Hudson when he was in X-Men Blue. But your super correct as Ultimate Spidey was leaps and bounds better

[@abrahamgonzales1888]

Joshua Lunn I mean I personally like marvel zombies,I think most of the fandom doesn’t,and the fantastic four/marvel zombies was pretty lame in my opinion

[@joshualunn32]

@@abrahamgonzales1888 I also love marvel zombies, was only mentioning the fantastic four as that was their first appearance

[@porassrivastava8242]

The only memorable moment for me remains spiderman trying to save everyone for hours while every other hero tries to go for magneto.

[@adrianvelante8014]

Yeah I love that scene. Great character moment. Show how much Peter Parker is the most heroic one in that story

[@visitor5451]

that alone almost makes Ultimatum worth it.

[@adrianvelante8014]

@@visitor5451 almost. But not quite.

[@TevyaSmolka]

Poras Srivastava technically spending that didn’t take place in the main book no it was only in the ultimate Spider-Man tie in

[@lukedalton]

Spiderman was the only true hero in the ultimate universe, everyone else (captain america included) were only play dressup

[@justinriley]

What went wrong with Ultimatum? Short Version: EVERYTHING. Long Version: Creative interference, contrived writing, overusing death for cheap shock value, being unnecessarily grimdark and angsty in a misguided effort to be more "mature", and the writer not being in the right mindset when he worked on the book.

[@debbys-abqnm4537]

Writing as someone who enjoyed this video but has not read and has no desire to read any of the comics mentioned in it, I noticed the art. I find it awful. At least one artist gave all the characters (male and female) mighty, jutting chins. Distracting and silly. But again: good video!

[@rawalshadab3812]

It's nice that you mention Jeph Loeb's mindset when he was writing the book. Too many people are kinda unempathetic to what a horrible family tragedy he was going through at the time. He can be a great writer who really gets to the meat and bones of characters when he's at his best... but yeah, Ultimatum is garbage.

[@falleneldor]

"Unnecessarily grimdark and angsty" is half of what made the Ultimate line appealing. It was Marvels answer to The Authority. It pared well with our korn, slipknot and Lincoln Park CDs in our teens and early 20s...

[@ohnosmoarlulcatz]

I wouldn't mind if the kills actually stuck. But when they started just popping in new characters and replacing existing ones, that was when I knew we were just getting the main Marvel universe in Ultimate and that kind of killed much of the appeal for me. I just dropped the whole line when Miles Morales was introduced.

[@Sousabird]

@@ohnosmoarlulcatz That was partly because originally it was going to be a massive end of the world all deaths count, and then decided, nah. And the story didn't reflect that.

[@tbowne05]

I clearly remember reading issue 1 of Ultimatum. I was on a bus and I kept thinking " What the hell is is shit?"

[@keelanbarron928]

"What the hell is shit"?

[@jlinus7251]

I ask myself this question everytime I'm in the toilet 😆

[@abdulmoen]

who is the hot chick on the cover page of issue 3

[@Your_Duolingo66-g1f]

@@abdulmoen storm

[@abdulmoen]

@@Your_Duolingo66-g1f is she like that in the comics? Because I don't recall her looking like that

[@MadeByDW]

“Ultimatum” was the first Marvel book I ever read. I’ll never get Blob eating The Wasp out of my 9 year old head.

[@AbdulRaheem-fk8ru]

I am so sorry you had to experience that

[@jadenbryant9283]

Hope your okay

[@onyxt3589]

I'm so sorry for what those authors did to your mind.

[@PhilosophicallyAmerican]

Bit of a rough start.

[@stormwolf5848]

@@AbdulRaheem-fk8ru But why the fuck he did it?

[@robertopulitano8093]

I think it killed the audience perception of the Ultimate Universe. Up to that point, the Ultimate line was consider a better version of the regular, boring, old fashion Marvel Universe. It was also perceive as "the new thing, the breaking of the old techniques, the Image revolution from inside Marvel comics" and the confirmation that a new way of superhero storytelling was not only possible but could be highly successful. But Ultimatum was like "oh, the ultimate line can also be terrible" and that killed the spell.

[@arthurdurham]

I'd agree but there were things about the ultimate universe kind of doing that already tbh. I loved ultimate Spider-Man and the first Ultimates comic but I was kind of turned off by a lot of stuff in the different series before ultimatum personally

[@robertopulitano8093]

@@arthurdurham I never "agreed" with this characters as the "ultimate" version of Spider-Man, X-Men, etc. Hell, I didnt really believe that Millar´s X-Men are the real X-Men. They were all kind of hollow to me. And I completely disagree with Cap´s and Bruce Banner´s ultimate version. I get it was necessary for the industry at the time but I dont see myself going back to any of those comics

[@mkno2799]

Sounds like what I experienced with the arrowverse.

[@rabl3535]

It didn’t kill the perception, just solidified it as a complete dumpster fire with a single exception, Spider-Man, and even with that bendis fumbled the landing. Random bullshit immortality powers go!

[@mkno2799]

@@rabl3535 Yeah, really hated that story arc. As it made UDOS and Miles completely meaningless and don't get me started on the wasted potential of spider-women and eddie brock Jr. (Is it even confirmed if his still alive or not?)

[@Danbo22987]

I'd also argue that the 616 universe became far more comfortable with retcons and the shifting timeline that one of the original point of the Ultimate universe (to modernize things) became moot. Also the MCU, the MCU basically accomplished the Ultimate universe's other goal, to give new audiences a more accessible starting point to explore these characters rather than have to sift through decades of comics

[@davissmedley5937]

And yet Jeph Loeb was still put in charge of the entire TV division of Marvel..... *sigh* I miss Earth’s Mightiest Heroes.

[@jordanscott4543]

davis smedley he did a good job with that though. Agent’s of Shield has gone strong for a while now, and the Netflix originals are all pretty much loved except for season 1 of iron fist

[@davissmedley5937]

Jordan Scott true, but he completely screwed over the animation division

[@mechajay3358]

@@davissmedley5937 Exactly. It hasn't been the same since.

[@chribel1]

At least he’s step down and got in trouble recently with what he said about Asians

[@campbellmurphy9371]

And spectacular spider man

[@Dhampir101980]

This whole event was style over substance. The violence is just mean spirited and has no purpose. We may have gotten Miles and the maker in the aftermath, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it justifies the road we had to travel to reach this destination.This Marvel’s equivalent of DC’s Countdown/Amazons Attack/ Cry for Justice events. All with similar faults: illogical things happening without clear explanations, characters acting grossly out of character to serve the plot, needless death and destruction, grim and hopeless tone, etc.

[@Ravathiel]

the Maker to me only worked in Secret Wars and Post. making Richards evil Ultimate FF was just.... aw man,

[@AftermathRain]

Yeah, because Miles is such a good, original and non-generic character and it totally wasn't created in order to replace the one and only Spider-Man AKA Peter Parker. No! Not at all...

[@Ravathiel]

@@AftermathRain Ultimate Miles sucks- but being thrown in the 616 works out just fine. but that's me being bias and grew up reading Ultimate Spider-man before Ultimatum gave me the final push to read 616 stuff when I was a kid.

[@-Teague-]

@@AftermathRain seen Spider-verse yet?

[@seanberrodin801]

@@-Teague- Coming in hot a year later (been there). For what it's worth I think our pals from yesteryear were dead wrong, bringing Miles into the 616 was idiotic he worked much better as a legacy character.

[@TevyaSmolka]

Ultimatium was one of the worst events of all time and in my personal opinion killed off one of my all time favorite universes because it killed off 99% of the cast for no damn reason just for bullshit

[@srstriker6420]

Tevya Smolka talk about Justice league Dark apocalypse wars

[@travisbewley7084]

@@srstriker6420 the problem is that ultimatum never got retconned. It should have but it never did.

[@srstriker6420]

Travis Bewley well that because the flash is going back in time

[@Ravathiel]

@@srstriker6420 holy shit, I had to look into that. wow.

[@channel99productions21]

I'd say it definitely one of the best events

[@bobisconsumed520]

Its like Ultimatum was the Thanos snap for Ultimate Universe, except Thanos won.

[@TevyaSmolka]

yup indeed

[@MetalMadness_00]

Patoren 3gou I don’t know it wasn’t gory as ultimatum

[@bluecrusaderfilms]

Except that the characters that died stay dead.

[@SirsasthNigam.]

@@patoren3gou653 didn't God bring Jesus back?

[@alfianfawzi2064]

Wasp's death disappointed me the most. I really want to see her in that outfit more.

[@scumbagbenis8762]

🧐

[@EX1515]

Also around the same time with Ultimate Janet’s death, Janet in the 616 universe was also killed off during the Secret Invasion Storyline…I know she was later revealed to have survived but at the time and aftermath of Secret Invasion she was considered deceased. Someone at Marvel at the time must of have not liked Janet to have both versions die…

[@alfianfawzi2064]

@@EX1515 That guy must be really high on crack lol. Then again, the lack of Ultimate Janet's (fan) artwork is really astounding, especially since her spicy red outfit in Ultimates 3 was my favorite and she was often drawn too small for me to enjoy her full body design lmao.

[@-Teague-]

@@alfianfawzi2064 what is it with you and the wasps figure :p

[@alfianfawzi2064]

@@-Teague- I like Wasp's Ultimate outfit, especially the one that she wore in Ultimates 3. What of it? :P

[@chrisgaspar5408]

"The Ultimate Nightmare" I like that about the Ultimate Universe. The fact that if they died, it is damn near impossible to bring them back from the dead. I loved the Ultimate Universe.

[@joebove4]

I feel like the actual seeds of the downfall of the Ultimate Universe were honestly the moments Mark Millar jumped in. His whole vision seemed to be “what if the Marvel characters you know and love are all insufferable assholes?” or even worse with The Ultimates.

[@user-pf9mt7tz5u]

Millar wrote the only good ultimate universe stories

[@dimitrijetucovic1307]

​@@user-pf9mt7tz5u HAH, good one

[@ironmaster6496]

I agree everything was going so grest until the avengers came out and ruined EVERYTHING

[@iamlouis1495]

And that came out the idea of The Boys.

[@TotallySearch]

The 1610 universe had so much potential but Marvel kept running out of ideas to make it good. So they decided to nuke everything in ultimatum until they tried to unnuke it later which ruined the story telling.

[@lukedalton]

Yes it had potential, but it was always a giant with a very weak clay feet; Ultimates and Ultimate X-men was the typical Millar shockfest, good ideas but drown in a sea of cheap trick, nastyness and juvinile humor elevated only by Hitch and Kubert art (basically Marvel version of the authority), between the unlikeble characters, the OP moment, the unlikeble characters the lack of a memorable supporting cast, the unlikeble characters and the author attempt to be edgy were not fit for a long time production as more time pass and more this problem come to be notice (while in a mini or maxiserie they can be hidden for long) plus there were the problem that any character was a jerk son of a jerk with the heart of jerk. The only one that's lack that problem was Ultimate Spiderman or as i call it 'The only real good thing come out of this operation'

[@davfree9732]

When Mahboy Cyclop's was killed graphically, that was the sign that the Ultimate comic line had no interest in the status quo. Cyclop's may be considered boring, but I think of him as the straight man in a duo, where his boy scout principles allow contrast, as well as seeing how far he's willing to bend, knowing that he'll feel the guilt later... And without the straight man..? Ultimate's lost one of their guiding lights, and replaced him with mirth, uncertainty and a morale compass that rarely ever pointed to even the concept of universal good... The Ultimate line was fine, but given the state of the comic industry now, I wonder if it was the canary in the cage that signalled the death of the industry to follow. Certainly, several people involved in the Ultimate line have gone onto ruin comics in pursuit of externalising their problems in comics and social media.

[@ricniks4619]

Ikr you can't just have a massive event that is suppose to leave devistating consequences & undo it later when you don't know where to go afterwards.

[@philiprearich3480]

I feel like Ultimatum was meant to be, well, the "finale" to the Ultimate Marvel universe. But if that's the case, there should've been better buildup other than just Ultimates 3 and a few other random issues. The series itself should've been longer than just 5 issues and not relegate key story elements to tie-in issues. Jeph Loeb is a good writer, but he shouldn't have been picked for it, given he didn't do much with Ultimate Marvel and his other stuff at the time was spotty. This could be attributed to him dealing with the death of his son. Hell, he named the Sam Alexander Nova after him and that's sweet. After Ultimatum, the Ultimate universe just felt kinda moot. Sure, Ultimate Spider-Man was awesome and Ultimate Avengers was ok, but the imprint as a whole felt like it ran outta steam. There were good stories and characters to come out post-Ultimatum, but Marvel's limp attempts to relaunch it just fell flat, and then they got rid of it, though at least Miles Morales, Jimmy Hudson, Maker, and a few others are still around, so that's awesome. Ultimate Marvel appears to be making a return, which there have been talks of and glimpses of it in Miles Morales: Spider-Man. Seems kinda moot since a lot of ideas that woulda came from there are already in the main Marvel universe. All's I can hope for is that it's consistent and not too gimmicky.

[@person14876]

Philip Rearich that and maker in venom is trying to go back to his home universe

[@philiprearich3480]

@@person14876 I forgot about that and I'm reading the Venom series lol. Wonder if they'll actually depict him returning there in the Venom comic or do a special crossover event for it. Probably both.

[@DrPluton]

I was a big fan of Ultimate Spider-Man, and Ultimate Fantastic 4. I was not at all happy about Ultimatum and Reed Richards suddenly becoming a villain with no real lead-up or foreshadowing. When I think of the Ultimate Marvel Universe, I prefer to think only of Ultimate Spider-Man. Everything else left a bad taste in my mouth.

[@alwaysxnever]

Agree. Every thing else felt very mean spirited and needlessly brutal even within the first 15 volumes or so of each respective story.

[@linkzone3797]

Agreed.

[@FormalFilmsProductions]

Agreed

[@craigthebrute8932]

The x men weren't bad either in that line

[@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868]

I agree with most of this but I disagree with the part about The Maker. He was built up to be a villain from the beginning, it was just subtle. If you'll notice, he was hotheaded and arrogant since issue 1. He made rash decisions, put his team in danger, and constantly created the issues they had to fix. Basic Reed Richards stuff, sure, but that's kinda the point. The point is that Reed Richards has always been teetering close to the edge, and that if he had just slightly different circumstances, he really might have gone down a darker path. I think this is shown most well in the Future Foundation comics that had the maker in them. In an introduction to the Ultimate Reed Richards for the readers who didn't know his backstory, it details how in every point in his life where 616's Reed found love, 1610's found none. His father was abusive, while 616's was nurturing. Franklin Storm's death (in the ultimatum wave, not his 616 death). The Four breaking up. Sue rejecting his proposal. After losing pretty much everyone close to him and then being informed that the world was literally going to end, I really don't see his turn to nihilism and narcissism as that big of a surprise

[@Ravathiel]

Ultimatum broke my heart. Ultimate Spider-Man was my first Spidey Series as a kid, didn't have to learn 60 years worth of story to understand who was who. I followed Spider-man and X-men all the way up to that event.... sucks man. though in retro spec, it was weird seeing "hot Highschoolers" and seeing their panties and bras all the time. like Gwen popping out of the toilet to get killed by Carnage. but hey, if Ultimatum didn't fail, it wouldn't have pushed me to actually grab their 616 books during that time. and I do believe that got me sucked into WW Hulk. Bonus Ultimate Fantastic Four I enjoyed a lot.. mostly because it got me SUCKED into Marvel Zombies. I loved those covers with U Reed reaching out to AU Reed who tricks them into bringing them in so they could devour their world

[@theflashgordon193]

gwen is killed too ? lol so edgy

[@MoostachedSaiyanPrince]

@@theflashgordon193 She did die, sort of, but it wasn't part of the Ultimatum event. It's kind of a long story, but I get if you don't want to know it, so I wouldn't blame you for not reading the following info dump. In the Ultimate Universe, Venom was an experimental life form made by Peter Parker's dad as an attempt to cure cancer. Long story short, the experiment was a failure because it has to consume whoever's wearing it to live unless they use it to consume someone else first, then he died along with his partner on the project, Eddie Brock sr. Then years later Eddie Brock jr, who's working for Kurt Conners, ends up with a prototype, Spider-Man gets exposed to it, realizes it's dangerous because it tries to eat the person wearing it, tries to destroy it, Brock has more of it than Peter knew, tries to kill Peter and seemingly dies in the attempt, leaving what's left of Venom in Kurt Conners possession. After this, Conners ends up helping Spidey by patching him up to repay him for helping with his "lizard problem", but doesn't tell Peter that he has Venom or that he's been secretly keeping samples of Peters blood. He likes the two together and it becomes Carnage. It escapes, and because it was created using Peters DNA, it has traces of his memories, so it's first instinct is to go home, where Gwen Stacy was. Interestingly, Gwen and Peter weren't dating in this reality, but she was living with Peter and Aunt May after her father died, so they had more of a sibling relationship. The weirder part is that as I mentioned, she didn't necessarily die. The Carnage symbiote in this reality somehow absorbed her, and while it left her body a mummified husk, her consciousness was absorbed by it, and was later pulled out and put in control of her new body by SHIELD, which was later discovered during the Ultimate Clone Saga, where both she and Richard Parker showed up at Aunt Mays house, despite them both being dead. Later on, they found a way to somehow separate Gwen Stacy from the Carnage symbiote, as she is still alive, and normal, when Spider-Man dies later on in the series.

[@Marco-Sheep]

@@MoostachedSaiyanPrince comics can be so weird

[@cortezmartinez8659]

@@Marco-Sheep absolutely

[@july7498]

@@theflashgordon193 As if Gwen Stacy dying isn't a regular thing

[@chikish]

After watching the trailer for the new "New Warriors" I'm feeling very nostalgic for "Ultimatum".

[@AnubhavDasGuptaEsq]

You can ignore it and support the books you like. I aim to do the same. Bad as it may be, New Warriors isn't going to drag a whole universe down with it.

[@NP-zv4bf]

Anubhav DasGupta facts

[@lydiaofpoggia3937]

Lowkey wanna read it when it comes out just to see how it turns out.

[@-Teague-]

@@lydiaofpoggia3937 if you're gonna, pirate it. I hate to support that but don't give them money for such an awful product.

[@kelvinsantiago7061]

Si.

[@juliagoodwin3461]

Basically, “Everybody’s Dead Dave” the comic.

[@juliagoodwin3461]

I should have never let him out.

[@mikeval1525]

Julia Goodwin who’s dead Dave?

[@juliagoodwin3461]

Mike Val Look up Red Dwarf, it might explain a few things.

[@carlrood4457]

It's part of the problem that a lot of these events don't really get what readers really want from superhero comics. If heroes have to die in order to show the stakes, we want them going out like Barry Allen and Kara Zor-El in Crisis on Infinite Earths. We want their finest moment, not some shock value gore. Having people eating people feels less real because it somehow seems more faked and forced than a being from another universe shooting anti-matter at people.

[@ProjektTaku]

Seriously, I don't care how "realistic" or "gritty" the Blob eating the Wasp is, Barry Allen running so fast he disappears into an extra-dimensional source of speed to save the multiverse from the giant ruler of the antimatter universe will be more impactful because it gets room to breath, gives a good send off to a character most people had thought was tired out and bland, and sets up his protege, Wally West, for decades of interesting stories following his death.

[@Jose-se9pu]

The entire Ultimates run aged terrible, it reeks of mid-00s edginess, but Ultimatum is plain disgusting.

[@travisbewley7084]

In some aspect maybe but I also see it as having actual charecter arks unlike most comics. Steve goes from being a man outside of his time, with a lot of unquestioning patriotism and macho man stuff going on to eventually being a lot more somber and down to earth by the end Quick silver has some really great development as the outsider who is dealing with having actual friends for the first time. It's a story about these charecters who are not good people that are on a journey to become good people. They all have that second act downfall sort of moment but come out generally better people by the end.

[@dc7981]

Mid 2000s edge was the best kind of edge

[@OvertheHedge06]

Spider-Man had some amazing storylines

[@RoyalKnightVIII]

Ultimatum makes Mark Millar look like Shakespeare. Christ I still hate it so damned much

[@Galvatronover]

Too bad not everyone is like that and the ultimatum disaster

[@falleneldor]

The best thing about post ultimatum was 1) a team finally called The Avengers. and the name kind of made sense more then it ever did before. 2) Miles 3) president Captain America 4) kitty pride and storm really stepping up in a big way.

[@justinriley]

I don't think Ultimatum single-handedly killed the Ulimates Universe, but it certainly was a death knell for it.

[@thomaswelbourn55]

Personally I think it was already dwindling with most people only interested in Spider-Man

[@jadenbryant9283]

to be fair his series was the best

[@somethingsomething9008]

Because the rest of it besides Fantastic Four was just 2000s egde the characters are all assholes

[@FoxStorytelling]

This is a really interesting topic. The sort of creative suicide that marvel mandated through the story shows the biggest challenge of modern comics. How do you maintain 40 - 80 year old characters in a modern context without completely scrapping continuity? I think continuity has become an albatross. My hero academia is an example how to tell modern, young superhero comics. Conversely, marvel and DC age with their fans instead of maintaining product integrity when it comes to audience.

[@Danbo22987]

DC has also, smartly, been willing to reset its universe far more often. The Batman that was introduced in the 30's is not, even with floating timelines, the same Batman today. Whereas, technically, the Spider-Man today in universe 616 is the same one that was introduced in the 60's

[@kingcoheed1208]

@@Danbo22987 I think there is a balancing point but 60 years of continuity isn't healthy any more nor is resetting half of your Continuity every decade.

[@PrivateAccountXSG]

You must be a young fan. Marvel ages with the times, not with any specific audience. The soap opera continuity is a challenge for writers, but it isnt necessarily fundamentally flawed.

[@goji253]

I mean, My Hero Academia doesn't suffer this problem by default because it evidently is one big story with a starting point and a planned ending. Meanwhile, DC and Marvel are designed to go continue into infinity (at least in theory). Not only that, but MHA is basically written by ONE author. No interfering vision by different writers and definitely not the problem of coordinating 50+ ongoing series at the same time. Obviously, not having years of continuity and a status quo that is so ingrained in the reader's mind you can never change it permanently also helps. Basically, MHA is very far from what comics are. It's more akin to single creative continuities like Young Justice, TAS or the MCU, where there is one interconnected story being told, by a limited amount of people instead of 50+ underpaid guys with differing opinions.

[@carlrood4457]

@@PrivateAccountXSG That's where you're wrong. Since the 80's and rise of the direct market, Marvel and DC have progressively steered away from content for children, once their target audience at a time when selling hundreds of thousands per issue a month wasn't unusual. The comics and story content aged with the fanbase who are now in their 40's and 50's.

[@cameronlapage7386]

Marvel Studios: "Wanna see it again?" I know it's just a rumor from a relatively obscure site, but it would be pretty disappointing for the X-Men to finally be introduced into the MCU just so most of them could be slaughtered.

[@katherinealvarez9216]

Cameron LaPage so far the MCU has taken very divisive and/bad storylines and make them enjoyable for the most part. I mean I liked Civil War the movie than I did the miniseries and I got a chuckle from Steve’s tricking the Hydra agents in Endgame.

[@jessec.6876]

The MCU will NEVER do that, thank god. They appeal to kids way too much to have their characters permanently Brutally murdered

[@theunknown7441]

Nah the mouse dont like that shit lol

[@DiegoReviews]

This book always manages to stun me with its back to back gruesome deaths. I wouldn’t mind this book as a graphic novel set in its own separate canon. But it is baffling that this was part of an on going universe with characters that readers spent a good amount of time with. Excellent video, Owen!

[@migue6391]

I think that an important thing that lead up to Ultimatum was that de Ultimate Universe was starting to feel irrelevant by that point. The Ultimate Universe shake up a lot of thing in the early 2000's when Marvel was just coming out of near bankrupcy and gave old characters a fresh and modern take, when Ultimates came out the Avengers where at much B-lister characters with low recognition outside of comics circles. But through the 2000's that changed a lot when Bendis took over the Avengers and we started getting events like House of M, Civil War or Secret Invasion, that were Avenger centric and put this characters in the forefront and started getting a lot of recognition. For better or for worse, it started updating this old characters and giving them the fresh and modern take BUT now in the mainline Marvel Universe. The Ultimates really felt odd compared to the versions that we had in New Avengers, Cap was kind of a jerk, Ironman was a nearly psycothic alocholic and Thor was a god-but-not-really-but-then-yeah-he-really-is-a-god. They needed to shake up the line and do something new and shocking to bring back the atention that the Ultimate comics were losing, so making something like Ultimatum is kind of logical from the editorial point of view. But still, Ultimatum is a bad bad bad comic that doubled down on the dark and gritty stuff and was just mindless violence that felt so out of place even compared to what we had already seen in the Ultimate Universe

[@l1Kenny]

I would say that this is why comic industry is dying. Like, imagine trying to get your friends to reading something but they have to read 80 + years of stories to understand. Ultimate comics also was part of my childhood and that incarnation of Spidey is my favorite till this day. How refreshing the story was using classic elements of the character, how relatable Peter was as a teenager with teenager problems and being a superhero at the same time. Watching Marvel trying to appeal to a new audience with the new warriors it's just painful and shows off how much of a sellouts they are. Having The Young Avengers, Runaways, Champions and more recently New Mutants. They don't let this heroes die and got their series cancelled cause they didn't made the effort of helping them.

[@Sonicfan-yb3pv]

Flashbacks of Linkara screaming about ultimatum.

[@OwenLikesComics]

I never realised how much of a mood Linkara's reaction was until I endured it myself.

[@logicaloverdrive8197]

@@OwenLikesComics That video was funny as hell. and I thank you for enduring this trash.

[@DIYisntDead]

Me thinking myself: everybody is saying this comic is overly dark and edgy, but none of it seems too bad so far... The blob eats the wasp...oh.. hank pym goes giant and bites the blobs head off....oooohh.... Magneto unceremoniously kills Charles Xavier by snapping his neck without a fight.... ooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Yeah all thats's a bit much.

[@shawnmotley1898]

The funny thing is a lot of these people probably watched SAW and HOSTEL.

[@vitreo1363]

Yeah, the problem seems to be it was too heavy handed on the killing and gore. One or two of these would've been fine.

[@BrenoGF144]

@@shawnmotley1898 yeah, but when you think of superheroes my guess is gory gruesome deaths don't comes to mind (usually)

[@dragonslayergod]

I'm still pissed nightcrawler fucking drowned when he could teleport

[@МаксимЛяшко-и3ъ]

@@BrenoGF144 And that’s not a good thing.

[@dominoprzybilski7865]

Bless you, Owen, for investing enough time and effort into the Ultimatum storyline to make a whole video about it. You're a better man than I.

[@OwenLikesComics]

Thank you, Domino. Honestly considering the amount I have to read for these videos, expect nothing but positive topics from here on out.

[@janitraho3457]

Man..i literally shed tears when reading peter's funneral issue, me, 29 years old male at that time... Reading all the ultimate universe was a blast

[@adrianvelante8014]

Aside from Ultimatum, all the weird, pervy subplots in Ultimates 3 kinda helped kill the Ultimate Universe.

[@queenie_bee]

I'll never be able to unsee wanda and pietro go full lannister

[@adrianvelante8014]

@@queenie_bee with Wolverine watching. Which was more icky since I think there was a twist that Wolverine was actually their dad and not Magneto here in the Ultimate Universe.

[@queenie_bee]

@@adrianvelante8014 God it was as bad a scene as blob eating wasp. The wolverine bit just threw it over the top. Really makes you wonder who approved that going to print

[@adrianvelante8014]

@@queenie_bee kinda makes you wonder what was going on in Jeph Loeb's head when writing this.

[@queenie_bee]

@@adrianvelante8014 100%. I still can't believe they let him be in charge of anything after Ultimatum.

[@mariobarrera6460]

Can you imagine them thinking "Yeah they're going to love seeing their favorite characters die violently".

[@kirbymarchbarcena]

The best thing that this have done for the MCU is convincing Samuel L. Jackson to be Nick Fury

[@maxleon61702]

Right.

[@MattDraper]

Loved this! You always do a fantastic job revealing the behind the scenes causes of critical events and this was no different.

[@eisschnee2649]

The "blob-eating-wasp" thing is such gross overkill

[@JerOfTheDead]

I watched a fair amount of your content today. I’ve been reading comics most of my 36 year old life. I largely ignored the ultimate universe until today. I ended up reading a fair amount of ultimate spider man after watching your stuff. And was really impressed

[@OwenLikesComics]

Ultimate Spider-Man is great, and I'm glad you're enjoying it!

[@RocketeerRaccoon]

Oh my gosh, wow! The deaths in this were absolutely brutal but they went overboard with the dark theme and that's why this story backfired in sales.

[@caligulapontifex5759]

Jeph Loeb is one of my favorite writers. His work with Tim Sale on those series of Batman books were some of the best. Saying that, I just have to scratch my head and wonder what Jeff was smoking when he wrote this particular comic.

[@ryanmadej6694]

The thing that Frank Miller does

[@danielebowman]

Jeph Loeb is a curious one. Most of his marvel comics regular gigs are terrible, cliched and poorly written and usually go nowhere execpt to ape bad comic industry trends. He's mostly a bad comicbook writer. He occasionally does a great comic with Tim Sale which revisits the past of superheroes in new ways to create an excellent one off story.

[@caligulapontifex5759]

Bowman Daniel It is curious how Jeph can hit it out of the park with Batman but be so bad with a lot of other books. He’s probably the type of writer who can only find his flow with a certain type of character. I also think the partnership he’s had with Tim Sale makes him a better writer.

[@tylerbertram7065]

His son died

[@lukedalton]

his son died in that period, so it's work reflected the state of his mind...that we can understand he was not in a good place

[@UltimateSpider1385]

No one had to die in Ultimatum. The Ultimate Universe would've turned out differently if Ultimatum never happened.

[@tylerhackner9731]

Ultimatum was very unnecessarily dark and I usually like dark.

[@toastwings9358]

dark stories still need to have meaning

[@-Teague-]

@@toastwings9358 that's the entire problem with Ultimatum. It's all edge and no point.

[@TimErwin]

Ultimate Spider-Man was one of the best comic runs ever. So much detail and emotion went into every issue. Then the Universe went downhill once they tried to make the new Avengers team with Miles, bombshell, and a host of other characters nobody cared about.

[@hadesshivabuddhachrist8573]

I think part of the problem that Ultimatum was created in response to was a lot of Ultimate characters were feeling too close to their 616 counterparts, so the need for the universe, the idea of the fresh new take becomes irrelevant, especially coupled with it meant to be new reader friendly, which is less and less sustainable with each years passing continuity. Now, I do think just doing a massacre miniseries wasn't the way to go. My revisions, if I were to play captain hindsight, would be several big shakeups that harken back to the origins of the Ultimate universe. Have Wolverine actually go fully evil, as was hinted at early on and which is something that wouldn't stick in the main universe. Having a Wolverine led brotherhood against the X-Men, no holds barred, could make for some great stories, especially if he does end up killing a former teammate, maybe a younger one like Iceman or Kitty. As for the Ultimates/ Avengers, Millar righted that ship pretty well followed by Jonathan Hickman, Spider-Mans trajectory really existed outside of that event, his injuries were an excuse for why he died a little easier. Ultimate FF I gave a shot, didn't care for it. Just leaving it cancelled with occasional mini's was the right call.

[@xanderg.1070]

This funny how DC did the same thing several years later with their New52 animated movie universe with Justice League Dark: Apokolips War

[@isaacwells8557]

I honestly kinda hate thinking about Ultimatum. If they hadn’t been so focused on changing everything and killing current characters, it 100% could’ve been one of the best comic events ever.

[@falleneldor]

The best thing about the Ultimate U is that it was a great jumping on point for people who loved the Spider-man and X-men films in the early 00s. I love how the best of the Ultimate U has inspired the MCU, but it leaned more into the heart of the 616 that gave us a fabulous 90s animation world. I'm surprised there hasn't been a comic set in a universe that is halfway between the MCU and the Ultimate U for a mainstream non-comic reading audience.

[@sketchasaurrex4087]

It was definitely the tipping point. The direction it took was an unbelievable gamble and they lost. I continued to collect it a little longer but stopped when Peter died and Reed became a villain cause all my heroes were dead.

[@OwenLikesComics]

Yeah, that seems to be the point where a lot of people finally dropped off. It's understandable but also a shame, because Ultimate Spider-Man was great even after Peter died, and Reed's fall to The Maker was fantastic.

[@sketchasaurrex4087]

@@OwenLikesComics maybe but all my heroes were dead and I wasn't happy with how most of it happened.

[@-Teague-]

While I hate that Ultimate dies for some reasons, I'm honestly so glad this story failed. First of all, we got cool stuff like 616 Miles which just expanded comics potential so much. But secondly, if it had done well, comics would've been ruined. Because if something this terrible sold, that would be what they made from then on, and that would be hell.

[@oldsalty6569]

At least it's better than the new warriors

[@matti.8465]

@@patoren3gou653 They were doing such a good job ignoring them too, don't they know that they feed on attention?

[@blakebowles7818]

Ultimatum would have been great, if that had been the actual end of the Ultimatum Universe. So much craziness went down, that when it was all done, nothing felt even remotely on track any more by the end. Every team was gone, 3/4 of the heroes we were following were dead. Bad guys were dead all around. And most of the characters that remained all seemed to go through an instant personality shift (good and evil). Story lines also seemed to be more fragmented after Ultimatum, and were harder to follow. Almost as if the writers decided one day to just break the toy they had built, and then regretted it afterwards but couldn’t fix it.

[@Lazarus1095]

Ah, Ultimatum- truly the "Fuck You For Caring" of the Marvel Universe.

[@orkoskang7967]

I wish I would fix the Ultimate Universe and 616 Universe from being corrupted by the unnecessary deaths and wokeness.

[@Lazarus1095]

@@orkoskang7967 I... don't get the wokeness, but I'm right behind you on the unnecessary deaths part.

[@doccerdewm6039]

Lets be real. Spider-Man was the only one being an actual hero and saving people while everyone else had a murder boner

[@thenationaltimelyactionhou9328]

What’s ironic is that Magneto never issued an ultimatum!

[@Woodsy2575]

You know what everyone really loves? Having their favorite character unceremoniously killed off with no rhyme or reason. Let's just do that a few dozen times and see what happens

[@nickperoncomedy]

Ultimatum has some interesting parallels with the New Universe a few decades earlier. That was another separate continuity that started strong but as interest waned they did all sorts of crazy character killing world wrecking stuff that ultimately tanked the imprint. History repeats itself and all that.

[@Daniel_i-s5b]

Justice league dark apokalips war is sooo similer to this comic

[@srstriker6420]

dsav 24z yes it does

[@joeparrigen4982]

But everyone loves it.

[@dionlackey798]

Not imo

[@CayeDaws]

@@joeparrigen4982 not me. Apokalips War took the "it's not your grandads justice league" and that approach was outdated even the the 1990's.

[@allenmurallo3730]

It seems thar way, but at least Justice League Dark Apocalypse War was retconned by the end, whereas Ultimatum was not and kept going.

[@JamesSerapio]

Ultimatum led us to getting The Maker, so I'll never completely hate it.

[@SelfReassuringTitle]

It's hard to explain to people who didn't live through it the fall from grace the ultimate universe suffered

[@alexlennen]

Great video man, looking forward to the next one

[@OwenLikesComics]

Thank you!

[@TheIllustriouBlueJay]

Pretty sure it started going wrong with Quicksilver banging Scarlet Witch while Wolverine(their suspected father in this universe) watched from a bush.

[@brianng3414]

i was never a big fan of the Ultimate line -the darker, more "adult" storylines. But it did attract some good talents like Bryan HItch, David Finch, and others. But even before Ultimatum, it was still pretty violent. It just dial it up at the end. It just reminds me of Robocop 2 when they brought in Frank Miller. It just became violent while the original Robocop had violence, but also campy humor and commentary, which was missing in subsequent sequels. Violence is not good or "gripping" storytelling if it is not balanced and done well.

[@RalphyTM]

Still stands as the worst event Marvel has ever published. And that's a tall order, considering they released either a lackluster event in Age of Ultron, missed opportunities such as Fear Itself, and let's not even talk about Original Sin.

[@arsenijekrasnic8479]

I liked original sin

[@AwesomerArtie]

I wonder if the MCU would ever benefit from an event like this someday, with a handful of tweaks to make it less edgy for the sake of it. Certainly seems like the only way to top the likes of Infinity War. (Then again, I just really love the idea of Magneto getting such a big spotlight).

[@SharpDesign]

Reed Richards becoming a villain is an intriguing idea.

[@Yatsura2]

@@SharpDesign I just read the original Civil War from 2006 and Reed Richards was as much villain there as he could ever be.

[@wdcain1]

I think _Doom War_ could work with Dr. Doom using the villains to take over the world. Maybe take a cue from _Infinity War_ and do a time-skip to show what the planet would be like 2-3 years under dictatorial rule.

[@Danbo22987]

I think at some point the MCU will need to soft reset, it may be 20-30 years from now, but eventually people will want a new Tony Stark or Steve Rogers story and not just another person taking on the moniker of Iron Man and Captain America

[@TevyaSmolka]

Also I hated that ultimatium killed off 99% of the cast like half the x-men and all of the other heroes like the wasp and some other heroes getting killed off for bullshit

[@BaBboonking]

Comictropes did really good job covering this as well

[@OwenLikesComics]

I'm sure, ComicTropes is great

[@leiasfather]

I enjoyed a lot of the Ultimate Universe at the beginning, but over time it got to be a bit much. Different takes on characters attitudes and alliances were better on some and not so much on others. Whatever the outcome was we can still see that the Ultimate Universe had some influence on where Marvel is today, especially with the MCU.

[@SylentEcho]

When X-Men started acting like dicks and Wolverine made that joke about Haweye's dead wife and kids, I was DONE with Ultimate comics. Mark Millar, especially sickened me.

[@jturner2577]

Spider-Man summed perfectly why Mutants are hated. There a bunch of A-Holes!

[@someguy9345]

I like how I know full well of what went wrong with this, yet I’m still watching this video

[@midnightmodding4658]

Having recently reread this, Ultimatum is significantly better than almost everything Marvel has done after. Think of it this way, if they didn't wipe things or provide some end points, then it'd just keep growing like the regular 616. But to what extent? The whole purpose of the Ultimate universe was to provide an easy stepping on point for new readers. I would have actually hoped that Marvel reset the Ultimate universe every 10 or so years. That way you can really give creators an opportunity to bring about interesting stories with actual weight, not just the endless resetting to the status quo that the 616 experiences.

[@hexum7]

The Ulitimate universe- or at least it’s justification for existing at all- had died some time before this series began. The concept behind the Ultimate line was to retell the Marvel Universe without having to worry about contradicting decades worth of interwoven storylines in each and every title. However, because the stories had retold almost every major Marvel universe highlight with multiple cross-cross-overs and even more complicated interwoven plots, by the time Ultimatum came out, he Ultimate Universe was even more bogged down with complex continuity than the regular line had been and no longer had any justification for continuing- you might as well tellthose types stories in the regular continuity, which is what had been going on for awhile by this point anyway - with the regular line incorporating popular elements of the Ultimate characters, and no longer bothering to adhere strictly to past history if it interfered with a current story line or characterization. In short, this was its wake, not it’s death knell.

[@marvelgeek9577]

R.I.P. Ultimate Universe 1.0 Long Live Ultimate Universe 2.0

[@StorytellerStudios]

Very nice review! As a Spider-Man fan for years, (started reading and collecting in 1970), I was skeptical of the Ultimate Universe, but was quickly won over by the great artwork and storytelling of the series. With Ultimate Spidey, the writers were able to respect the old while creating a fascinating new world. At the time, I never cared for the larger team-ups- even the Avengers; however, once again I soon became a fan of the new and was amazed at the excellence of The Ultimates. I devoured each new comic-that is until The Blob devoured The Wasp. That one panel led me to give up on the series. Ultimatum was a disaster in more ways than one.

[@TheChrisHype]

Comic book companies never learn from the phrase “if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it”. The Ultimate Universe was doing just fine...but Marvel STILL decided to try and “fix it”. The Universe never stood a chance...

[@williamhowe1]

The question should be what went right. Nothing, that's the answer.

[@BruddahJMan]

Hickman is retconing all of this with the new Ultimate universe, preventing all of these mishaps.

[@OwenLikesComics]

It's not so much a retcon, more a brand new universe. The new ultimate books are set on Earth 6160 not 1610.

[@laserbeamlightning]

The Batman V Superman of Marvel Comics

[@ezequielnavon9592]

No it is worse

[@bobisconsumed520]

Even though Ultimate Universe may be gone (as we know it, I know its been revived, but dusty on the shelve) some of the character were better than there 616 counter parts. Ex: Ultimate Kitty.

[@daftspect]

one of the authors (finch) was in my country and was doing a comic book signing, and my dad works in media so he interviewed him. he gave my dad a copy and i read it, christ it was awful. i think the worst part was that i read it when i was like 10. can't say seeing bumblebee being eaten as a child was entertaining

[@ArcTrooper269]

*IS FUNNY THAT WHEN MARVEL DID THIS EVERYONE HATES HIM, BUT WHEN DC DID EXACTLY THE SAME, EVERYONE SAY THAT IT WAS GREAT & INNOVATIVE*

[@Himmyjewett]

Thank you

[@TrakeniteAdventuress]

The Spider-man issues from this event are genuinely an amazing read, shame the entire rest of the universe goes to hell at the same time

[@patrickangelobalasa]

I think Ultimatum did start the decline of the Ultimate Universe but at the same time a lot of the more inventive, unique and well-remembered stories and characters that came out of the universe (Hickman's Ultimates and the Maker, Miles Morales) wouldn't have happened if the universe didn't go in that direction.

[@faiquskun4614]

I loved the ultimate universe. The F4, ultimate spider-man, ultimates 1&2, and few of it team ups. But what came after ultimatum were just.... a big why and question, couldnt they create a more mature outcome where the f4 face the fact they disbanded instead making reed as a new antagonist? And the way they ditch magic in 1610 by create it into an obsecure element.

[@acecashman1237]

Marvel better fucking not use the Ultimatum retcon to explain mutants showing up in the MCU

[@user-pf9mt7tz5u]

All of these comic universe reboots start well and then almost immediately become convoluted and turn right into the previous universe and continuities they were trying to distance themselves from. Millars ultimates looked different and modernized the avengers. That is what they shouldve focused on exclusively.

[@MrARHobbs]

The event itself was just too much. However, I really enjoyed the universe that followed. It felt like the creators knew it was on it's way out and had more leeway in the creative process.

[@GinHindew110]

Ultimatum could have worked even as an edgefest if they just charted the previous stories to culminate there, to have the previous conflicts be set and finally resolved by killing other characters For example, there was an issue on Ultimate Fantastic Four where they defeat Doctor Doom and Reed Richards get all angsty because he knows Doom will come back eventually, again and again, and again unless he is killed, and Richards is not morally capable of killing Doom, then Ben Grim sees this and goes himself to kill Doom, this is alter retconed as being just a Doombot but it could have worked in Ultimatum Or even better, when the tsunami hits the city Reed Richards assumed it was Namor's doing because he already threatened with the same in his introductory story, then Richards goes and captured Namor until its clear it was not his tsunami Then imagine this: Magneto convinces Namor to team up so he can conquer a portion of the surface while Magneto takes over the world and they both unleash a tsunami followed by an atlantean invasion, Richards goes and kills Namor because this time he went too far and its eventually revealed Magneto just wants to destroy civilization out of grief and never intended to conquer the world They could had Magneto assemble a force of villains under the pretext of taking over the world, just for all of them to realize too late it was all a suicide plan, and this still gave space for all the killings it was such a rushed event and the worst part is that it could have worked so well

[@jturner2577]

You're Ideas actually would have been impactful.

[@theajshow]

It may not have totally killed the Ultimate Universe, but it was the first nail in the coffin. I think they could've had a comeback after this. I actually really did dig the Kitty Pryde-led X-Men. But, while it didn't single-handed destroy the Ultimate Universe, it took a lot out of it so that it couldn't survive future challenges.

[@randalldowling1068]

Ultimatum was Marvel trying to replace their characters with new ones in an ill-conceived plot. Marvel learned nothing because they tried it again in the main titles with the same results.

[@HejaWolf]

I remember first hearing about this story and I was genuinely shocked by how many characters died. And the deaths were unnecessarily brutal. I didn't read it, though I did read parts and seen some of the artwork (Which I did like the art, despite some of the graphic imagery) and it was just insane, but not in a good way. Some parts were cool though, like Spider-Man teaming up with Hulk, and the beginning didn't seem too bad. But overall, if you asked me if I thought Ultimatum killed the Ultimate Marvel Universe, I would say it kind of did. Only thing that came out of it that felt worthwhile was Miles Morales was introduced a couple of years after Ultimatum and I was against him at first, when I read his story and origin, I was pretty impressed with him and I liked how he was becoming more popular (Enough to show up in the Spider-Man PS4 game and being the lead in Into The Spider-Verse), so that was great!

[@noodkiller123]

I fucking hate when comics do shit like this. Take something soooo precious away from the antagonist so they just snap only to have it later on revealed that person or that thing is still around

[@moscreefus]

The Ultimate universe was doomed by the fact that it was a redundant ongoing universe. People love what-if stories, so of course it sold well early on, but after just a few issues you've already accumulated some of that dreaded continuity the universe was created to avoid. It took very little time for Ultimate comics to get more convoluted and confusing than the originals.

[@olliedeaney8740]

Everyone calling this an edge fest 4 years ago. After the Disney-fication of marvel it’s actually nice to have dark grounded and gritty stories

[@eduardoruiz7600]

I loved this video. Really really great editing

[@OwenLikesComics]

Thank you, Eduardo❤️

[@SpiderMan-ek4sg]

I haven't read the full ultimatum arc but 1610 is still my favorite universe, regardless of all its flaws. It gave a new tone to the heroes, even though they set out to be complete jerks compared to their original counterparts. Sometimes, not everything has to be sunshine and rainbows, by making them edgy it gave them a feel of what 00s were or at least a part of it

[@vernondent1411]

Look, I'm all for shaking up the status quo every so often; it keeps things interesting. But I think most of us, as comic book fans, mostly expect certain things, and certain characters, to remain in the story, until they die in a manner that feels timely and organic. (DC certainly seems to recognize how that works.) The death of a fan-favorite character should be a big deal; it should have build-up, culminating in a heartfelt or final send-off.

[@Slyarno2795]

This should have been the final story to the ultimate universe and it fall apart after ultimatum.

[@frozarburst6350]

Hulk and Spidey are the real heroes. They're actually trying to save everyone. Not just themselves

[@ren.67]

Captain America doesn't feel like Captain America anymore

[@trevinodude]

In general, I feel that the Ultimate Universe changed every Marvel character, except for Peter Parker/Spider-Man and his corner of the Ultimate Marvel Universe, into people who only had the face and name of their original counterparts. I'd argue that before the Death of Spider-Man arc (which is when I stopped reading the Ultimate Universe for a while before giving Miles Morales a chance)... before Miles Morales... Peter Parker/Spider-Man was the Ultimate Universe's only real hero. The Ultimates were all buttholes with a huge ego on them... even Cap... and the X-Men could be hit or mess when it came to character accuracy... but there was something about Ultimate Peter Parker that was more... pure and real than the other characters. He actually acted like a modern Spider-Man, and a real hero.... I guess what I'm trying to say is... while Ultimatum did bring the Ultimate universe closer to it's death, it's mishandling of classic Marvel heroes started the path to it's demise... only Spider-Man was potrayed well, and Ultimate Peter Parker is still one of my favorite versions of Spidey.