Uncle Bob Martin - The Clean Coder

Uncle Bob Martin gives a Laracon US 2018 talk about clean code. The hour long talk gives a high end overview of programming and some ideas for keeping your code clean. It's a highly entertaining talk.

[@SaiReddyDubbaka]

You know you're a geek when you start to prefer these kind of talks to standup comedy.

[@donkelley4835]

Sometimes they approach standup comedy.

[@othernicksweretaken]

Actually, I thought this guy was doing a standup comedy act.

[@TheDesvendador]

i don't think this has to do with "being geek", if you like your profession you want to become better, that's all

[@dimitris470]

@@othernicksweretaken Lol he even sounded drunk at some points. reminded me of Dylan Moran :D

[@kingstalker]

Lol

[@jordanmielbrecht3435]

I'm watching this in preparation for a guest lecture by this guy. Couldn't be more excited, what a hilarious smart guy!

[@sombiri9147]

Wow! Uncle Bob Thank you, sir! This is a big one

[@codewithaqib]

What an amazing talk on architecture. Thanks, Bob.

[@JoelPiccoli]

Uncle Bod is awesome! I can hear him talk for hours without see the time pass!

[@zyishai]

One of the best talked I've ever heard about architecture! Wow, thank you "uncle Bob"! ❤️

[@dotnetdevni]

I love his voice its so soothing after a hard day of codding.

[@renarsdilevka6573]

Yes, soothing is the right word which resonates in me too :) He is brilliant :)

[@kinvain]

This is utterly awesome speak! Everyone who considers himself as a programmer should see it.

[@LemonChieff]

I love this guy :D

[@maxmatteo2436]

awesome dude!

[@GerardoBelot]

A snap-shoot for future Laravel arch, for sure!!!

[@BillClinton228]

I know React, Vue, Nodejs, Angular, Ember and I consider myself a God of coding. My arrogance and confidence is completely unfounded because I havent mastered anything in particular and just know a bunch of randon libraries but nevertheless I'm going to pretend like I'm a genius. Any one else can do what I do with vanilla language but I can do it faster you see, and when I create a complete mess of spaghetti in 2 years time I'm going to tell my boss that I need to rewrite the whole thing in whatever framework is in fashion. I'm costing the company time and money but I'll still be overconfident about my abilities because I am special as a programmer and not many people can do what I do. Except 100 million other people that is.

[@baka_baca]

Would have loved to known about this video some time ago. We were going to be starting a project in several months at my job, so I asked "What kind of architecture should we we use? You know, what is at least a rough idea of how we're going to build this thing and work together? We can iterate as we go, but just to get a foundation of what our approach should be." Time goes by without any discussion, the team lead just kept saying there's no need to plan that stuff, we'll just do it the "framework's way". Whatever that means no one really knows it still seems, best I can tell it's like some sort of feeling about how to do things that you just know somehow. I had been advocating for something similar to what Uncle Bob was saying here, that we shouldn't do it the "framework's way" or any other way that makes us completely dependent on a library/framework. Instead I was pushing for this plugin approach where all of our core business logic and services would be written in vanilla JavaScript and the framework would only be responsible for taking that logic to handle creating the view. Well they didn't like that because that framework was of course the answer for everything and they wanted to rely on it 100%, job security or some love affair with the framework or something. We really get attached to these tools... Anyway, we get a month into the project, things are going poorly (surprised?), we're fighting with each other about which way is up or down and how to approach the problems we were facing. We couldn't even decide on how to write CSS and development was about as fast as a sloth. All the way up to the project being taken away from the team there was fighting and indecision and little concept about how we were even trying to work on this thing. Architecture matters for another reason too, it let's us not only build good software, it let's us work together well and with a clear plan so we can get the job done. You wouldn't want to be months into building a house, have the walls up and starting on the roof to only then realize you never laid the foundation, would you?

[@staruml]

Thank you for sharing the video

[@berajpatel8081]

thank you uncle bob

[@TheRoqco]

Great talker. entertaining!

[@Kira-bi2ut]

The talk was very good, and what he said made a lot of sense. Thing is, what he presents is a very ideal way of developing software, which is not always worth the effort. Many people who build websites know that the 'delivery mechanism' is always going to be the web, not a console or anything else. The lengths one has to go to, to generalise everything is simply not worth it

[@baka_baca]

True. The plug in model for a web app these days would probably be having your core business logic outside of the framework/library and then having the framework/library depend on that logic. That way it's not as big of a deal to switch from one framework to another (though it's still a big deal). I'm seeing firsthand how time consuming and expensive it is to switch frameworks with all the business logic and use cases jumbled up inside of it, and honestly pretty much any framework you pick will be replaced at some point. We all seem to like to pretend that it won't happen, but unless what you're writing now ends up like COBOL, it will be replaced; no matter how good you think it is.

[@hongbin7326]

thank you !

[@tetianal1811]

In this video he reminds me of George Carlin. Anyway awesome speech :)

[@vitorisaia]

...and the Boeing 737MAX episode had not yet happened at that time

[@Yetipfote]

Title: "Clean Coder" Talk: "Architecture" me: *profusely confuselt*

[@ZergYinYang]

Architecture (of code) = structured code. structure = clean code

[@donnyroufs551]

@@ZergYinYang The confusion is more in the fact that bob has books about the "clean coder" ^

[@koeniglicher]

36:31 - is probably Result Model going to the user as well, instead of Request Model.

[@StevenWeijdt]

we got drivers in laravel for db and other persistent solutions. So we could delay choice basically. Wouldn't be too difficult to build an interactor. Changing the directory structure would be possible too. Seems to me if you know it's going to be laravel anyway.. what's the point? I get where he comes from. And in enterprise you would focus on those issues and make sure you can be flexible. But for small/medium applications development goes way faster with laravel defaults.

[@greenboxwebdesign4898]

so true what he's talking about is large software systems (often the kind banks use), for what most people work on small / medium apps, its better to use a framework that will enforce good programming style, it's about speed of high quality development for my clients. They don't care about the architecture, they don't care about viewing their webpage in via a console or any other device. The web browser is a tool to view apps and it's the standard these days and will be for a long time due to the amount of code written to be viewed in web browsers. The web/web browser is the only delivery system many will ever need.

[@linjustek]

I still do not understand why `Illuminate\Foundation\Testing\TestCase` is for both Unit tests and Feature tests or any tests? :D That's why I prefer codeception there is a clear distinction between those. But still use laravel TestCase abstraction at the moment. :-)

[@FloatingSunfish]

That young programmer impression lmao. 😂

[@nicobellic1326]

What mean lamao?

[@nicobellic1326]

@Raymond Davies Thanks, but i was kidding... Hah

[@nimoii]

His name is Trigvyreinscouc.

[@dawizard300388]

Hahaha he is very funny.

[@maximpobihun5469]

The total numbers of software developers in the world for 2018 was: 23 Million, according to Evans Data Corporation, which regularly conducts in-depth surveys of the global developer population. It is expected to reach 27.7 Million until 2023. So it's just 20% growth in 5 years, which is pretty far from doubling.

[@TysonRoehrkasse]

D. A. For real I’ve never even heard of it 😂

[@BryonLape]

Bob has been giving this same presentation for years. He needs to update it and go deeper.

[@taliluvhengo5928]

Buy the book Clean Code

[@vitorisaia]

and that's a good thing, it's the first time I watch it

[@gamemusicmeltingpot2192]

And people still never learn

[@none_the_less]

Fundamentals don’t change much.

[@nodetransit4277]

Come to japan, nobody does TDD here... they don't even know what test means.

[@markhathaway9456]

He does a good impression of Jack Benny.

[@taliluvhengo5928]

Reading the comments on this is sad. You cannot throw away the whole talk because you don't like something he said or did. You are robbing yourselves of some really great learnings. F. Scott Fitzgerald Quotes. The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.

[@GlenUK1]

Nice comment but learnings is not work my friend.

[@mycode0]

I don't want to sound unrespectful , but when was the last time when he wrote production code from actual requirements and dealing with time constraints. I tried to search his projects and everything is just books and courses. Not saying that a lot of what he says does not makes sense, but in the real world those perfect conditions and the perfect architecture, application completely decoupled from everything etc. exists only on the bookshelf.

[@rickbo5858]

It's something that he himself said on his blog. There is no perfect implementation, in other words use it as a guideline and have it in mind. Keep it decoupled as much as possible. There are situations where using some of these principles is simply overkill.

[@GeorgeTsiros]

Always hated the term "application" to refer to a program. Application... _what_ was applied and what was _it_ applied _to_ ? You apply for a Thing at the Thing Providing Office. You apply chocolate frosting on the cake. Application form: you provide a filled application form to the office. Who the hell thought of "application" to refer to a program? I want to apply yoghurt on their face.

[@vashstampede8523]

Probably has something to do with generations. Younger generation usually say application and older a program. Its same shit basically. I guess application sound "modern" or something. That's always been my guess.

[@GerardoBelot]

jajajajajaja que putiada en 46:45, y es totalmente valido, Laravel tiene todas las herramientas para hacer tdd, es una barbaridad que a estas alturas del partido aun no entendamos la necesidad de manejar codigo industrializado!!

[@Wafflepudding]

This is basically the same presentation as "clean architecture". I liked it, but I'm very skeptical about this idea about the core of your app being the app itself, and everything else working sorta like a plug-in. How much do you have to invest in abstractions to make your solution so decoupled that everything outside the business layer is just a plugin? How maintainable does it become? How much time will that take?

[@researchandbuild1751]

A good question also is , is it necessary? Unless you expect things to change a lot, it could be the "smell" of pregeneralization

[@alexcorzo8653]

The ideal world only exists in books, real projects have trade offs and how you manage them can make or break your app. I was hoping his talk was going to be geared towards Laravel, but boy was I wrong...

[@chavdarangelov1433]

You can learn Rails in 1 hour

[@richardpaulhall]

If you have the necessary background.

[@thunderpeel2001]

How are doctors not "regulated" exactly? It's illegal to practice medicine without a recognised medical degree. And rightfully so.

[@khalidelgazzar]

The mighty have fallen.. 😆😆

[@saurabhchopra]

When will you actually start talking about Clean Code?

[@TristanBailey]

He is so good at telling story and letting you learn. Still not sure what the science at the start of his talks are for. A little personal interest and a bit of waking up coders to think 🤔

[@ArchimedesTrajano]

30:16 databases are my synchronization point that I don't have to deal with. Unlike a file system I have to manage that. Databases (elasticsearch is a database too) are things that are managed and backed up that I don't want to deal with. So it's more than an I/O device, even though he keeps on demoting it down to that level.

[@GeorgeTsiros]

plus, the way you interact with a database (ie with an SQL) does not in any way say who or how the bits are stored. "put this there", ok. "put that there", ok. "tell me which of these satisfy those conditions", database responds with the data. It's not an IO device. You use an IO device to interact with the database. A hard drive is not an io device. It is _a_ device. Its purpose is storing and retrieving. It does not care what or how. A database may use a harddrive for storage and interact with it via an IO device, but that's a hardware/OS issue. DB has no idea how the disk stores data, the disk has no idea what that data is.

[@theschinkelfamily]

don't forget to watch The S.O.L.I.D. Principles of OO and Agile Design - by Uncle Bob Martin kzbin.info/www/bejne/qmmZp2aEabSmnrM

[@mikelCold]

When does the presentation actually begin?

[@prashantsingh1096]

I also think the same about php programmer like uncle Bob :):)

[@maximpobihun5469]

DSP - Digital Signal Processors usually are designed by hardware engineers, not software engineers or "computer programmers".

[@MosesMatsepane]

Bro what decade is this? The 90's? Who still does DSP's without Software?

[@thunderpeel2001]

41:12 His explanation of "current" MVC does not ring true to me, especially in Laravel. I would NEVER have a model call a view. That would be insanity. The controller is the one who interfaces with the model, and then returns data to the correct view.

[@gustavo-santos-dev]

Some comments make me think that are so many arrogants working with software development. Uncle Bob knows more about software than most of us will ever know. Please be more humble or the REAL good developers will end your carrer.

[@DotSimLtd]

Uncle Bob - the self appointed "guru".

[@vashstampede8523]

@@DotSimLtd He made AGILE with some other programmers. What did you contribute?

[@DotSimLtd]

@@vashstampede8523 You can buy all this guys books on Amazon. All of them - probably will only set you back a few hundred dollars.

[@MrQ1941]

My how things have changed. The comments on older Uncle Bob videos are either complementary or argumentative from a technical perspective. What’s happened? When did developers become such arrogant asshats? What’s to be gained with the insults of Uncle Bob? If there’s nothing helpful why not just move on?

[@TysonRoehrkasse]

MrQ1941 it’s all the PHP developers who can’t take a joke 😂

[@theLowestPointInMyLife]

Didn't the moon landing rocks turn out to be fake, not surprised theyre very similar material to earth 😂

[@camgere]

Skip the first 23 minutes. Unless you want rambling speculation on how the moon was formed. Putting off decisions until they need to be made right now is standard "agile" programming.

[@Jonesiblitz]

His intros are to catch the audience attention. The guys grabbing coffee still wandering in. They don’t miss anything important.

[@gandralf]

Show, don't tell. The main problem with los tres amigos was that they told us how to do software, but the software produced by the company where they worked was simply awful. They have told, but haven't shown. The same way, this architecture needs real world cases with clear real world advantages over the alternatives. Don't get me wrong: I too believe that we have lost many wonderful and useful concepts over the years, but they need to go through the bitter reality to be validated. If they aren't successfully tested, they need to be discarded or reformulated. It doesn't matter if we just replace something like models/controllers/views/... directories by presenters/boundaries/interactors/... Neither screams "church!" or "library!". In some tortuous way, the micro services "architecture" can act as the "screamers". For instance, if some services can scream "deposits", other scream "withdraws", "accounts" and "kyc", you may have some kind of financial application.

[@heraldo623]

The advantages are clear: 1. Decouple the domain objects from underlying application; 2. Decouple the application from underlying infraestructure; 3. Easily unit test each object; 4. Easily add or change existing functionalities; 5. Be able to step back and change past decisions (like Uncle Bob said, a good architecture allows you to defer decisions) What you should ask is "Does my application needs that advantages?". The cost of that architecture is a increased effort (time and skilled people) to develop the application but this cost is paid in long-term with a easy to maitain application. For me that architectural style is suitable for long-term complex software systems.

[@tembelim]

I dislike rails very much so I am not to defend it. When he shows the church he shows every component of it so we realize it’s a church. We should expand the directories too for the overview of the app. Just looking at the root directory and bashing it doesn’t seem fair to me. Then don’t show inside of the church too. What do we see? Just a roof.

[@rickbo5858]

He isn't bitching about rails, but more about the tight coupling between business logic and the rails app.

[@loverboy260]

at what point does he actually start talking about the architecture? first the moon, then how many programmers blah blah.. maybe i am not putting 2 and 2 together... :/

[@FalkPauser]

It's not about the spoon...

[@PerryCodes]

I could listen to Uncle Bob talk all day long - but this one has a lot of fluff in it...

[@DotSimLtd]

Clean code....ahahahah......let me breathe one second....ahahahaha.

[@Rildlanster]

Your nickname "Obese Nerd" says a lot about your state of mind.

[@DotSimLtd]

@@Rildlanster haha yes what we say and do gives away our personality

[@larseriksson1184]

the moon has lots of iron. what??+

[@JDLuke]

No, it does not.

[@Jeckoize8]

American Moon Mineralogy Mapper in the Indian Chandrayaan-1 discovered in 2008 a big mine of iron in the surface.

[@JDLuke]

@@Jeckoize8 it has a little iron, but the measured mass of the moon precludes there being more than a small overall amount.

[@GeorgeTsiros]

49:00 programmers have been ridiculed for decades. Don't expect them to view "people" as something worthy of attention.

[@GeorgeTsiros]

@Dirk Knight what makes you certain that reality follows specific rules?

[@GeorgeTsiros]

@Dirk Knight no, i mean, what gives you the guarantee that reality is 1) definable by us 2) understandable by us 3) follows rules as understood by us. I'm not arguing that whatever knowledge we have about the world is invalid. Of course it's valid. I'm a physics msc. I'm talking about _underneath_ it

[@GeorgeTsiros]

@Dirk Knight oh hey wanna geek out about kernel development maybe some time? Do you know about the QNX kernel? Do you know about (Sys)RPL and the hp48 'OS' ? I have to go to work now but whatever you reply i will eventually read it!

[@GeorgeTsiros]

@Dirk Knight please don't mention VHDL again, it gives me PTSD 😖

[@Kiev-en-3-jours]

The architecture he shows based on business rules is exactly what you come up with naturaly when you don't want to use all those stupid frameworks like Laravel. And it is the same on the frontend. Framework like react are horrible and only complicate things for zero advantage.

[@Kiev-en-3-jours]

@@quaesitor-scientiae True. It's a library. Well I just think it is not worth it for 99% of projects.I tried hard to find a reason why I should use it. Multiple times. But it just brings zero value for me as a single dev. reusable components can be done easily without any library. But let's talk about it again in 5 years when everybody will have moved to the other fancy useless library.

[@Sahuagin]

I also haven't gotten into React or Angular yet and wonder why I ever would when I can already write my own reusable UI framework in TypeScript.

[@aruprakshit7218]

I feel he makes/explains things more complex way.. Not my taste of teacher.

[@lepidoptera9337]

The goal of coding is not cleanliness. It's functionality. If you want to be in the cleanliness business, then janitor is the better job description for you.

[@redhotbits]

maybe stop hiring stupid developers, make better interview questions instead of selecting parrots knowing SOLID priciples and scrum?

[@ThePr0gr4mm3r]

To make sure that you don't waste 6 minutes of your life. God made the moon and the earth. Start at 06:00.

[@MrApplewine]

This seems to go nowhere.

[@cs4155]

@D. A. Reply is disproportionate.

[@cs4155]

@D. A. I mean disproportionate.

[@cs4155]

@D. A. I never said you weren't obtuse. I said your reply was disproportionate.

[@sergelachapelle7992]

Am I the only one who think Uncle Bob completely missed the mark on this one? What the hell uncle Bob, did you even look at Laravel? So disappointed... I am about the same age as you are... Been programming for about as long... I too dealt with 3270 terminals... lol One has to evolve... Why does a Rails app look like this? Why does a Laravel app look like this? Millions of programmers in this world look at the directory structure and instantly know how to navigate it.... and that's bad? If I dig a little I can get into one of these directory structure and tell you what they are... I know where to look... very little digging required.. And these are web apps... the I/O device will evolve but it will always be the web whatever the web looks like in the future... You know they retired 3270 terminals right? I think you missed an excellent opportunity to dive into this framework and have an intelligent discussion about it with it's artisans... I think it's a shame... I was looking forward to get your take on it... Now I feel I want my hour back... what a waste of my time... I think you said the word Rails more often that you did Laravel... You were at Laracon after all...

[@h0ph1p13]

If you take some time watching him on youtube you will quickly realize that actually this lecture is not meant for the Laravel community. So -- you're right. I have watched the same lecture a few years back on some other not-lara-conf

[@sidrittrandafili7896]

Yea this routine has been around for a while. He keeps refreshing it year after year

> I think you said the word Rails more often that you did Laravel He didn't say Lavaerl even a single time, I counted that.

[@manawa3832]

umm building an application around the architectural framework of a library tool is a really bad idea. i look at a laravel i have no idea what it is other than "this is a laravel framework". all of massive number of indirections and magic happening in these frameworks makes any conventions they established in groking them completely useless. its not that hard to design a program with some very easy design principles that anyone who looks at its directory will be able to tell what it does, where things will be and of course what the hell does this program actually do. frameworks melt that away

[@DanFletcher90]

I always really enjoy watching Uncle Bob's talks, and this one is just recycled from other talks he's given in the past. I liked this one too, even though I don't completely agree with all the points such as directory structure like you said. I have to say I was disappointed to not see more mention of Laravel though. I was lucky enough to meet him after this talk and I asked him what he thought of Eloquent - because I honestly was expecting an opinion. He didn't know what it was or that Laravel used the Active Record pattern for its ORM. I was a bit let down that he didn't go to the conference even slightly informed but I've also shaped a lot of who I am professionally based on his talks, articles, courses, interviews, and discussions he's created in the larger developer community. So I was still super stoked to meet him and I really believe in a lot of what he presents.

[@niksatan]

Funny guy, good to listen to. To bad he hasn't got a clue about programming.

[@DallinCoons]

You're a dick

[@Jeckoize8]

You are one of society problems.

[@AndrewSmithDev]

If you don't know who Robert Martin is I would venture to say you don't have a clue about programming. Have you never heard of the SOLID principles?

[@GerardoBelot]

the guy hit pretty hard on the community, you just don't listen all the speech. over all, talk about dev arch and the responsability and need to use TDD

[@pystov]

What the hell is this? The first 20 minutes are a colossal waste of time. It is flat out disrespectful to an audience to just blabber about nonsense trivia for so long.

[@cali4484]

Its waste of time !

[@Ryu53898]

Time to retire

[@sergelachapelle7992]

I think so... I mean he reminds me of a few crusty programmers I had the opportunity to work with... lol Some people learned it once and don't want to bother with this new stuff ... lol

[@Ryu53898]

Mike 2 this again ...

[@Ryu53898]

Mike 2 yes your stuff is more difficult to understand and you are a real programmer

[@DallinCoons]

@@sergelachapelle7992 What's the new stuff, not giving a shit?

[@Jeckoize8]

Time to retire for us

[@redhotbits]

i cant stand his talks, just get to the point man, i don’t care about the freaking moon!

[@madmanX1314]

Oh man, I had to stop watching when he said that the database is an I/O device. This is so wrong and this kind of thinking causes so much harm. All these bloated slow enterprise software horror systems that load half the database into memory for every single request using thousands of single SQL statements because this little „detail“ is completely abstracted away and noone knows what‘s going on. The database is part of the application, just like the user interface. And there‘s nothing wrong about that.

[@manawa3832]

no the database is a detail and the program has no business worrying about how to groom its peripherals to behave properly. making sure the database I/O is fast between your program and an external device is the responsibility of the programmer writing the boundary/interface implementation/driver. using thousands of little sql statements is exactly what you get when you tie your program to the way a particular databse works. you dont know what youre talking about.

[@NotARealPerson12345]

Well, what you said has actually little to do with what he meant. He's not saying database is not important. On the domain level, database IS the detail, and it'll benefit you if you don't think about it too much on a domain level, because the database (in a lot projects) is meant to serve the domain. DB has to do a good job to serve the domain fast and well and to achieve that, you absolutely need to care about database. But here the takeaway is that you should build your application from the core, which is your domain logic and set boundaries between that and your infrastructure layer (DB, network, IO, and stuff like that), so that now your core is being depended, not depending on others, which actually is key to building a robust system, which you'll see in future if you haven't seen it yet.

[@PetrosSchutzSchilling]

@@NotARealPerson12345 Thanks for explaining that for people. Make you application dependable. Not dependent.

[@FlygarN338]

"highly entertaining".. Unwatchable

[@B3DFire]

real content starts 1 hour in! kzbin.info/www/bejne/hJa7gniAg7yCa9k