Uncovering Zheng Yi Sao's (Ching Shih) Historical Distortion in the West (with Larry Feign)

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Zheng Yi Sao (Ching Shih) is a very well known figure in the West while Zhang Bao Zai is relegated to be a supporting character in her story. But In Hong Kong, the opposite is true. So in this episode, I talked with Larry Feign to find out why.
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🕒[TIMESTAMP]🕒
0:00 Introduction
1:32 Sponsor
2:53 Was Zheng Yi Sao Real?
3:39 Zhang Bao Zai more famous in Hong Kong
4:21 How Reliable Were the Original Source?
7:59 Origin of the Distortion
12:14 Other Research on this Distortion
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📚SOURCES:
靖海氛記 (Jing Hai Fen Ji), 1830, 袁永綸 (Yuan Yonglun)
王珂, 2019, 事实与虚构中的郑一嫂:一个女海盗形象在中西语境中的流变
Dian Murray, 1981, One Woman's Rise to Power: Cheng I's Wife and the Pirates
Dian Murray, 2001, Cheng I Sao in Fact and Fiction (in C.R. Pennel's, 2001, Bandits at Sea)
Mr. Dalrymple, 1812, Larones on the Coast of China (Richard Glasspoole's account)
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#History #Documentary #ChingShih

[@CoolHistoryBros]

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[@weiskl887]

My suggestion is you do Earliest Part of Chinese History. Its Gentlemanly to the point of Naive. Before Spring Autumn period where Wars are fought VERY GENTLEMENLY. Where opposing Forces wait for the Rival forces that arrive late but commanding Duke ordered the Army to wait and let the Opposing side that came late to rest up so that a Fair War can be conducted. LOL This will blow the Minds of the Western audience. I suspect Confucius is born in that Period which is why he Laments and mourn the Period when Rulers were Virtuous. The Rites, manners and Virtues period of China.

[@ucmanhho9457]

Funny enough, when I read aritcles about south china sea pirates, many of them tend to ignore the reason why the pirate became a professional army: the help from Tay Son dynasty, they even awarded pirates with merit, treasures for their loyal. I think you should cover this topic

[@CoolHistoryBros]

You're right. At the time, there was also a female general on the side of the rebels, Bùi Thị Xuân. Larry talked about it in his full interview. He wondered if the two women had ever met.

[@conho4898]

@@CoolHistoryBros Bùi Thị Xuân wasn't the only woman in Tây Sơn's Army. It had 5 women in power, collectively called Tây Sơn Ngũ Phụng Thư 西山五鳳雌. You can find their info here: vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A2y_S%C6%A1n_ng%C5%A9_ph%E1%BB%A5ng_th%C6%B0

[@conho4898]

@@CoolHistoryBros Also, many Chinese pirates during this period also became very famous generals in Vietnam, both in Tây Sơn side and Nguyễn side.

[@CoolHistoryBros]

@@conho4898 Cool! Thanks for this info.

[@kairyumina6407]

We are no where close to 1800's in my world history class, but I may just show this video to go over with my students how historical bias and source bias can warp history, because this is a perfect microcosm of that phenomenon in the study of history.

[@animation1234111]

Another aspect of Zheng Yi Sao's story that gets misrepresented is this weirdly popular idea that she was undefeated and retired from piracy of her own volition. Which is is just incorrect, as the Red Flag Fleet was beaten by the Portuguese at the Battle of the Tiger's Mouth, surrendering to the Qing afterwards.

[@powerist209]

Yeah, I see the exaggeration by British. Either that or "technically a victory, as in having her on negotiation table but the cost is kinda higher than we hope" (any account on that, like after-action or something). But consider that the Qing haven't modernized the navy (then agian Qing Army would be focused on policing than conquest after crushing the Mongol remnants and conquering Xinjiang, so maybe "just enough" budget to quell rebellion and keep people in line) after Zheng fleet's attacks kinda reflected in pre-during-and-post-Opium War.

[@rayray6490]

Kings and Generals did a piece of Koxinga. One poster said Cheng I Sao is far more successful than Koxinga lmao. Ok yea Cheng I Sao never defeated her Western opponent nor established her own kingdom nor was ennobled with a fiefdom. I feel alot of people modern days also panhandle heavily to what is popular or woke rather than really make accurate comparisons

[@LFeign]

Not true. The pirates escaped. She negotiated her own surrender under her own terms. This is well documented.

[@animation1234111]

@@LFeign In fanfics, sure. Why would the pirates surrender if they didn't have to? lmao. The Portuguese blockaded their fleet so they had no choice.

[@VisualdelightPro]

@@rayray6490 King of Generals is MI6 propaganda created by UK adminstration.

[@bradypus55]

How history can shape into a complete different view in a matter of a decade reminds me of my experience growing up in France and learning about Alexandre Dumas, the author of the Three Musketeer, the Man in the Iron Mask and the Count of Monte Cristo. I was always told that the author was white and even saw documentaries (and cartoons!) where he was depicted as so. However, it wasn't till recently that I found out that his father, the revolutionary Thomas-Alexandre Dumas, was a free black man! And looking more into this, I found out there are so many records and witnesses of his era that Alexandre Dumas wasn't just himself also a black man but very, very proud of being one. Many of his characters in his story were based on his black experience growing up in the 1800's as well like the Count of Monte Cristo himself! It flipped my entire world, it really felt like white supremacist people tricked me for my entire childhood. But another thing that needs to be said about all of this is how even though this was recorded many times in the past and it wasn't hidden from history, that fact is still considered controversial to today's French historian circles. But that's mostly due to recent French politics who are... touchy when it comes to talking about race.

[@SantomPh]

Alexandre Dumas ,unlike his father was very light skinned although his hair and facial features were not that of a typical French man of the time His mother was relieved that he was not as dark skinned as his father. Like Pushkin, also part African, he was adopted by a largely white society and made into a literary hero and taught to children without telling them children what he actually looked like. As for French politicians, they have never liked black or Muslim people, since they bring vibrant cultures that the French are too incompetent and insecure to enjoy.

[@uanime1]

Given that Thomas-Alexandre Dumas was the son of a white man and black woman, while Alexandre Dumas was the son of him and a white woman it's somewhat misleading to refer to them as black men. Thomas-Alexandre was as black as he was white, while Alexandre was 3/4 white. Also in the USA they may be considered black but in South America they'd both be considered white.

[@s._3560]

It is like eating wasabi with sushi all your life thinking that it is the real deal. But decades later finding out you were lied to all along when it is actually just horseradish dyed green.

[@luciledebethune3748]

@@uanime1 I reckon he was surely light skinned, but it doesn't mean he didn't consider himself as black. What is sure in any case is that there was a lot of caricatures of him where his black "crepu" hair was featuring prominently, including some where he is really draw as a black person (caricature). But yeah it really quickly disappeared from any account (you don't want child to be taught that people from all origin live in France and can be great writer). I had read 50 of his book by the age of 16 (I love his writing) but it wasn't before my twenties I heard he was "mulatre" (it was a real expression, in French not really bad connotations but not sure now how it's thought upon, it means somebody who has one parent of colour, one "white")

[@uanime1]

@@luciledebethune3748 "I reckon he was surely light skinned, but it doesn't mean he didn't consider himself as black." I guess we need a source where he states if he considers himself black or white.

[@marcello7781]

As someone who is going to write a research paper on her, I'm so glad to have found this video.

[@vandeheyeric]

Beautifully well done Cool History Bros, and thank you for this. I had no idea about the depths of this, and particularly about the great Zhang Bao Zhi, who I knew only very foggily before hand. You do a great job at cutting to the core of these issues and giving us a better idea of what the hell is going on. I have little doubt Madame Zheng was a remarkable woman and gifted pirate in the warlord, but even the embellished stories made it clear even the best cannot run alone. And it makes sense she was acting as a consglieri or sort of advisor to the direct leadership of the armada. Thank you for helping bring this information to we unenlightened barbarians beyond the passes.

[@ErikHare]

Thank you again for a fabulous story. I don't mean Zheng Yi Sao, I mean the appropriation of her for a variety of personal uses. History is always difficult, but once it bridges cultures that are clashing and do not understand each other it becomes ... well, it's own story. You tell it well.

[@100mythfreak]

This is the first time I've heard of a Chinese Isekai series. I should probably go and look it up. Also, will you be covering more Southeast Asian history in the future? I think you've covered Vietnam and the founding of Majapahit before, but the history of the region could be interesting.

[@Alex-ni5fj]

man this is such an interesting video, it’s fascinating that you showcased how real historians go about uncovering the myths and truths in historical documents, really cool insight, thanks for the video!

[@cindyhuang7021]

this vid is actully underated and this is actully the real china that the amarican main stream media actully dont show you

[@Kitty-Cattie]

Well, since Herodotus and Thucycides' earliest works and their perspectives on historical writings, the word history can have different meanings. It can include the cultural representation through storytelling or straight up investigation of sources. Herodotus held a mirror for his own people to reflect on themselves, using storytelling. Thucycides was interested in remembering the deeds of great men and human nature, using primary and secondary sources. Both are parts of our understanding of history, not just the modern acceptance of Thucycides' perspective. As a matter of fact, many of the stories of Sima Qian, the father of Chinese history, are like Herodotus', biased but critical at the same time. Sima Qian decided to be a eunuch in order to finish his father's wish to record Chinese history. Even that act was a reflection of filial piety in Chinese culture. Either way, I love this video a lot. Amazing discussion !

[@deathdoor]

This needs a follow up. You said that she wasn't but not what she actually was, and anyway she still seems pretty big! You confirm that she was the "leader" of the pirate confederation, presumably after the death of Bao Zai? So she was the leader, the person who gave the orders during the period that the confederation had it's biggest feats? And what about the deal they had with the government to stop being pirates and become part of the chinese navy, was that part real? If so, she was the one of officiate the deal on the pirates side, right? This still seems pretty big and enough to make her one of the greatest pirates of all time, because when we think what a pirate really was it wasn't necessary holding a gun and sword and boarding other ships in combat. If you're the captain/leader you are a pirate without needing to do these small jobs. So it seems that what was exaggerated was the "how" she was the biggest pirate.

[@iwatchDVDsonXbox360]

To me (from i've read/watched in other sources) it seems like she was a nominal leader, but actual leader was Zhang Bao Zai. (kind of like japanese emperor and the shogun or Louis XIII and cardinal Richelieu)

[@deathdoor]

@@iwatchDVDsonXbox360 Yes, but only until he died and she assumed true leadership. I want to know more because this video didn't answered crucial doubt I have. How long she was the leader after Bao Zai died? From all the stories most of her "achievements" happened in the years after he died. If it's true that he died and then she took leadership for many years until that deal with the government that disbanded the pirates, seems like a pretty big deal to me. Meaning that he story was exaggerated by not invented.

[@iwatchDVDsonXbox360]

@@deathdoor as far as I remember Zhang Bao Zai died like 10 years after she retired. Or did you meant her first husband? To be honest, i would also love to see chinese version of the events.

[@deathdoor]

@@iwatchDVDsonXbox360 Ooooh, ignore me then. I was confusing the names.

[@weishi9804]

@@iwatchDVDsonXbox360 No, Zhang Bao Zai just was her 20 years adoptive son, without her proposal, he would have even lower function.

[@songjunw8981]

Thanks for the Conclusion that you show in the end of video; that'll make me a better person when judging histories and others

[@goldman77700]

Wow now I'm interested in hearing the Portuguese side of getting the boot from post-Sengoku Japan. Haha.

[@kotaniyumiko]

CJ I love listening to your accent, its so much fun!

[@ginzomelo]

A new video ❤

[@stargazeronesixseven]

Yes , we respected others's Biased or Exaggerated Opinions but the Middle Truth that Was or Is the Key to Reduce or Solving the Said Problem we are confronting! Thank You So Much for taking the Extra Efforts of finding out the Middle Truth in your Subjects before sharing! 🙏🕯🌍

[@lettuceee]

Can’t wait for Cool History Bro to do a series on Yue Fei!!

[@powerist209]

13:00- For some reason, this reminded me of Belter Pirates--whose lifestyle stemmed from their nomadic lifestyle that often had their ship as home--in The Expanse.

[@weishi9804]

She was CEO of pirate confederation.

[@endless_tragedy7662]

When you cover Yue Fei, I hope you are not afraid to talk about the political reason of qin hui and emperor gaozong executing Yue Fei

[@CoolHistoryBros]

Obviously. It is even discussed in the early chapters of Condor heroes. LOL!

[@velociraptor3313]

Hello Cool History Bros I just want to say I love this channel and the content that you put out and I was wondering do you know of any books about Zheng Yi Sao that go into her life in an nonbiased way? Sincerely a fan from Australia.

[@CoolHistoryBros]

Well, there really isn't much info on her life at all. In "Bandits at Sea" 2001 Dian Murray has a section on "what is known", but it is quite bare. If you want something closer to the Chinese records, then you can look at Neumann's "History of the Pirates Who Infested the China Sea from 1807 to 1810". Despite some of its mistranslations, ZYS role had not been exaggerated yet. Also, you might want to check out Larry's take on her. He's got quite a few interesting insights.

[@velociraptor3313]

@@CoolHistoryBros Thank you I'll check it out. Keep up the great work mate.

[@onepunchman5909]

Im reading his book at the moment and i enjoy it a lot, its my first english one and im hyped for the continuation.

[@jack-dn2uk]

Send like pirate when we pirate we think of pirate of the caribbean pirate are use violence because they don't have skills and most pirate attacks merchant

[@WildBillCox13]

Liked and shared.

[@orangeyellow9695]

Well, you can't write 'history' without 'story'

[@WildBillCox13]

I have that exact edition of A History of Piracy. Enjoyed it.

[@andreascovano7742]

Good to see some pushback on english center media to get more accurate accounts of history!

[@CARL_093]

thank u bro i want more bro do not forget the other Chinese dynasty's bro

[@CoolHistoryBros]

Don't worry, I will get back there eventually.

[@CARL_093]

@@CoolHistoryBros thanks bro your the best

[@Jolly_Captain_Crabz]

Regardless of what is fact or fiction. Zheng Yi Sao's story it certainly an amazing one, and even an inspirational one from a certain point of view. It is important though to be able to discern the correct historical representation as well.

[@birdbirdbird1565]

should go to Macau and ask the Zheng clan regarding the truth of her story.

[@fatalblue]

I don't think we should disregards the possibility of any historical women's accomplishments being diminished/minimized compare to her male conterparts (esp in relation to activites and roles traditionally dominated by men) but ultimately we can only evaluate historical figues on what records we have. By that account I'd say ZYS was still pretty damn remarkable. She isn't quite the "Pirate Queen" the west has make her out to be (I mean you could still call her that assuming you consider her husband the Pirate King) but she seem to have still had significant influence on the long term success of the operation and we do have on record she did lead some of the fleet in her own right. Cool enough accomplishment for a women of her time imo. In terms of romantictization framing Zhang Bao Zhi and her as a power couple would've probably been more in line with what we have on record tho.

[@shintaiden]

Shut up and make me a sandwich.

[@2007jag]

yeah, but I'm not a super huge fan of terrorists anyway

[@weishi9804]

She was CEO of pirate confederation (compare with then Western faith that woman should not service on ship, it was massive step up.).

[@MarcosVinicius-hg4uz]

Nice

[@jonasleclerc4250]

Can you please make a video about the three song sisters? That would be great

[@blackknightjack3850]

I'd always been lead to believe the most successful pirate in history was Henry Every

[@thewanderingrey8830]

Your Zheng Yi Sao image looked like a pin-up air crew girl from Singapore Airlines...

[@caocaoholdingaplushie6022]

Could you do a video about the three sovereigns and five emperors?

[@CoolHistoryBros]

It's in the pipeline. You'll see it before the end of the year.

[@foxdoesyoutube2621]

So she was a person who became a myth in the west and then later and they turned her into a girl empowerment thing for feminism. What an evolution. That's what I call a journey.

[@annaavertho4944]

1) what the people in this random KZbin video did is also randomly discredit the original Chinese source and call it biased because they read some other totally ‚unbiased’ reports from the west and HK, without actually saying what the differences are except „the Chinese fleet wasn’t that powerful“…there is a lot of beating around the bush and they did not once mention that the Hk perspective of the history of mainland china and vice versa is to be looked at ultra critically in general! 2) But even these two internet historians agree, that she existed and was a captain, but there were a bunch of female pirates from china actually, Ching Shih was just romanticised mainly because of her specific „come up story“, „from rags to riches“, „against all oods“ when the odds weren’t actually that uncommon and the outcome not that glorious. BUT a female pirate or female warrior is so uncommon in the west (and in the east and Central Asia…again…) that yes, this story may have had an empowering impact. You are right in that aspect….Even though the west doesn’t need to look that far…the Nordics very much had shield maidens during vyking age and just one look to some of the ancient tribes that still live in Indonesia today (and in most of them all females are basically hunters, depending on size, cause it’s actually easier to hunt with a bow, if you’re smaller and therefore stealthier…duh), is enough to understand that a bunch of history surrounding females in war has disappeared with colonialism and the Victorian age and the same can be said also for all the indigenous people forced to fight in colonial war or for example the colonial crimes of Denmark, Belgium and the Netherlands, as well as the US responsibility and crimes in the Philippines, which was also mentioned at the end of this video.

[@foxdoesyoutube2621]

@@annaavertho4944 interesting how she was able to go so far and triumph in a male dominated job.

[@weishi9804]

her rule has downside for male captive, since now they have 100 times more likely rape by crew compare to female captive.

[@danielk934]

Same like story of Mode Chanyu and his arrows

[@MCorpReview]

For raid, my favorites are shaman n scyll of d drakes.

[@thehistorynerd4845]

Can you make a video about puyi being emperor of manchukuo? It’s okay if not.

[@powerist209]

Larry Feign? You mean the writer for Lily Wong?

[@foxdoesyoutube2621]

So this also renders extra credits video untrue?

[@CoolHistoryBros]

There are quite a few inaccuracies, but it's not as bad as others.

[@foxdoesyoutube2621]

@@CoolHistoryBros oh okay ,thanks.

[@monkeyking-self-proclaimed7050]

TruTH is, we will never know. There is no way of doing research. Reading certain pieces can't be consider as research as stated in the video, there are biases, misinterpretation and a lot of speculation.

[@captaindemobeard9560]

So the stories I heard about Zheng Yi Sao were bias and full o' errors. Ah well, at least it tells a good tale. Also I like how she makes an appearance in Pirates o' the Caribbean: At World's End. Nice little historical reference. (Even though it be set in 1729 and historically she don't appear til much later.)

[@weishi9804]

Yes, the woman at Pirates o' the Caribbean: At World's End, sure didn't look like 30 years old pretty woman.

[@captaindemobeard9560]

@@weishi9804 Well she couldn't have looked that way forever. The movie probably portrays what she would have looked like during her post-pirate years when she ran a gambling house in canton.

[@weishi9804]

@@captaindemobeard9560 movie also show her 2nd husband "Alive" play by Hong Kong actor born 1955 (he died at early 30s).

[@captaindemobeard9560]

@@weishi9804 Well like I said, not accurate, but its a nice nod non the less.

[@user-jo6nr3zg3p]

What about a video on date masamune or the sanada clan?

[@CoolHistoryBros]

I will do those in the future.

[@lordkent8143]

You should try pronounce those Cantonese pirates names in Cantonese. Just like how you pronounce foreign names, trying your best in their language.

[@Arjibi]

Ching Yacht Sow Ching She

[@xygog2408]

That TVB isekai show tho...

[@gh-ik3jp]

Colonial history? That is something every nation is trying to forget or rewrite.

[@iwatchDVDsonXbox360]

After i saw her story for the first time i thought that Zhang Bao Zai was the REAL leader, because even though those documents were "feminist" they just don't match up her personality, but perfectly match up with Zhang Bao Zai's personality. To be honest a lot of what western people know about 19th century China seems not very reliable to me. China had outdated weapons, but no one in Europe even tried to sell them new? They forgot about it and instead decided to sell them opium? Where were Portuguese and Dutch? Also, british destroyed chinese in the first opium war, but chinese had a draw with the Sikh empire and british victory over Sikh empire wasn't that easy. (Even though british were led by the same guy (Hugh Gough) in the first opium war and anglo-sikh wars.) Plus, Sikh empire as far as i know wasn't technologically inferior to Britain. Why they (Sikh empire) didn't easily defeated China as Britain did if the gap between their weapons was just as big? This just doesn't make any sense to me.

[@KathyXie]

Ming dynasty led by Zheng Zhilong was able to defeat the Dutch in the Battle of Liaoluo Bay using European cannons, his son Koxinga also was able to defeat the Dutch in Tainan. The Qing dynasty also defeated the Russia Cossacks several times during the mid to late 1600s, they also defeated the French forces on land in the Sino-French War. Qing China weakness was mostly on its navy.

[@iwatchDVDsonXbox360]

Main reason why i think it wasn't she who created those documents is because from what i know she was a woman with low social responsibility and later created her own brothel. Why someone would defend females and then exploit them later in life? And another thing is that in western media she portraited as a strong woman, but women with low social responsibility are generally doesn't have a strong personality, otherwise they would not allow themselves to be exploited by someone.

[@vandeheyeric]

"After i saw her story for the first time i thought that Zhang Bao Zai was the REAL leader, because even though those documents were "feminist" they just don't match up her personality, but perfectly match up with Zhang Bao Zai's personality." Interesting and I hadn't heard of that. And as one of those Wumao EuEuro-Americans looking from the outside in I hadn't even thought of that. "To be honest a lot of what western people know about 19th century China seems not very reliable to me." This is very true. " China had outdated weapons, but no one in Europe even tried to sell them new? They forgot about it and instead decided to sell them opium?" Well said, though in general nations tend to be much, MUCH pickier about giving up or sharing weapons technology with foreign powers than they are other things like tea and opium, even silver. So the British etc. al. had a lot of incentive to not offer that much in terms of boomsticks. While the Opium thing seems to be SOMEWHAT overblown, at least in terms of British policy prior to the First War (AFTER that they went full ham following the Peace Treaty), in that while the sort of British expat community at Canton was mivided but had most of the leaders heavily involved in the opium smuggling, the government itself was leery and often tried to come to some deal with the Qing to buy up and destroy the Opium. What ultimately seems to have cracked the wavering British Government was the decision by the Qing to basically besiege the British quarters regardless of who had or hadn't signed a pledge to not deal with Opium. Since no British government could afford to let it be seen as letting innocent or "innocent" British nationals be killed indiscriminately by a foreign government, they decided to go to war. And when they did, they *brutally* ravaged the coast and canal. "Where were Portuguese and Dutch?" They were AROUND is the best summary I can make; the Portuguese in particular were in the dog house after a couple centuries of bashing their heads with first the Ming and then the Qing over ravaging a number of Muslim Indian Ocean states in pursuit of an oceanic monopoly, which happened to be Chinese tributaries. Things sort of settled down by the 17th century with the Portuguese retaining Macao, but they had been chastened after being manhandled in some battles with the Chinese and facing the threat of intervention there. But they of course got a day in the sun with the crushing defeat of the Red Flag pirate fleet in the Battle of Tiger's Mouth. The Dutch fared better but less so, since they had won dominance of the Indian Ocean and Northern Pacific from the Portuguese (only to then get taken over by the British), and were more able to act as a middleman, fighting some battles with Chinese navies and winning and losing some (in particular they lost their direct colonies in the South China Sea thanks to the Ming Loyalists kicking them out of the Islands like Taiwan/Formosa) but their position in what's now Indonesia and trade elsewhere helped them continue holding on. And since both the Netherlands and Portuguese by the time of the early 19th century were diplomatically and strategically aligned with- some might say dependent on- the British they were largely content to follow its lead for fear of a smackdown. "Also, british destroyed chinese in the first opium war, but chinese had a draw with the Sikh empire and british victory over Sikh empire wasn't that easy. (Even though british were led by the same guy (Hugh Gough) in the first opium war and anglo-sikh wars.)" Oh indeed it was not. And it gets even moreso when you realize how thoroughly disadvantaged the Sikhs were in many ways, especially with disorder in the Sikh government AND the fact that the leading commanders of the Sikh military were *Traitors openly getting their orders from the British.* The fact that the Sikhs came so close to winning is amazing. "Plus, Sikh empire as far as i know wasn't technologically inferior to Britain." Well they were but not quite as much, and at least as importantly they had a battle hardened and well drilled military (albeit one that was suffering from the effects of a succession crisis and was riven by traitors). But offhand one key issue the Sikhs and Qing both faced against the British was NAVAL inferiority; the British were much much much more maneuverable on a strategic level than the Sikhs or Qing were by simple fact that their navies could dominate the waters, meaning that what might've taken months of marching could be bypassed from a week or two of sailing. This allowed the British to do things like cut the Great Canal and land Marines every which way(and withdraw them if they got into trouble). The British also had generally better small arms, especially the Brunswick Rifles that were coming to replace the old Brown Bess Muskets. "Why they (Sikh empire) didn't easily defeated China as Britain did if the gap between their weapons was just as big? This just doesn't make any sense to me." Simple. For starters, the Sikhs didn't have as big a bag in their weapons; the Sikhs were VERY well trained on the whle an well equipped, but they were mostly equivalent to a European Army in the Napoleonic Era, complete with smoothbore muskets (to be fair most European armies of the time were that too, but the British had invested more in rifling and it was showing). For two, the Sikhs were acting as the aggressors in their war with the Qing, invading Tibet overland. Which is famously not the easiest place to get into at the best of times due to terrain. So in many ways the Qing and their Tibetian allies let the Sikhs string themselves out throughout the summer and fall, buying time both diplomatically and militarily until the winter and then picking the right time to counter-strike to shatter the enemy, which they did so skilfully. And this being hundreds of miles inland- and well away even from rivers- the Sikhs had no way to get out except running and riding for their lives downhill (often through easily blocked or snowed in passages that could become death traps). This is in sharp contrast to the British and other Western powers using their navies to ravage the coastlines like they did for most of the Opium Wars. Movement was faster and easier and they could pick when and where to strike. And if they got themselves into a situation where it looked like they were about to be screwed, the British could do things like threaten to terror-bombard a nearby city to get the Qing to call off an attack on the stranded troops or could have them withdraw under fire (like what happened during the 1859 attack on the Taku forts (where the British, French, and even "Neutral American" warships off the coast bombarded the forts in order to save a bewildered and beaten Anglo-French landing force that had been defeated by the fort defenders and was on the verge of being wiped out). This gae them a sorto f safety net that they didn't have in their wars with the Sikhs and that neither Sikhs nor QIng had with each other. Or indeed that the British would have deep inland (and while the British did succeed on launching expeditions well inland during the Second Opium War, that was only AFTER a lot of experience and weakening for the Qing). Fighting through the Hills, Mountains, and Valleys of Central Asia is dangerous work at the best of times, and the British managed to succeed in a VERY close run, mismanaged campaign in 1904 by marching to Tibet. A good parallel for what might have happened had the British around the time of the Opium Wars tried to attack Tibet like the Sikhs did is the destruction of Elphinstone's Army by the Afghans. Finally, there's something to be said for issues going beyond technology. The British and their allies generally fought the QIng at times when they had stable chains of command and one or maybe two leaders who were loyal. At the time the Sikhs went to war with both Qing and then Britain the Sikhs had lost their unifying leader Ranjit Singh a few years ago, and so the Sikh Empire was in chaos as multiple warlords staked out their claims to power, and a few were outright traitors in the pay of the British. So the troops that invaded Qing Tibet were not the entire Sikh Empire as a whole, and the troops that fought the British were under the command of literal traitors (whose arm still nearly defeated the British anyway).

[@Haijwsyz51846]

From what I read, the Qing navy was weak, and the Qing court was ignorant and arrogant. The Brits Lord Palmerston sent a delegation to China with British firearms and things for trade and wanting to set up residence (embassy) in beijing. Qing court at the time only allowed Russian to have residence in Beijing. All the other foreigners could only trade through designated port and mechanisms at the Canton and fujian coasts. Qing court also viewed the stuff brought to them by the Brits as toys. They were ignorant that some of the things were firearms. The Brits were also very arrogant and threatened to militarily attack Beijing if not allowed to set up residence there. Qing court did not want to trade tea, silk, Chinaware etc with the things Brits brought, but only gold or silver. Brits illegally sent in opium first. When the opium caused labor crisis in the coastal regions, Qing court decided to dump them into the harbor and had a war with the Brits. But Qing navy was weak because the Qing dynasty had stopped investment in its navy when Zheng He came back from his voyages and found that all those other nations were not as wealthy or anything of worth.

[@vandeheyeric]

​@@KathyXie "Ming dynasty led by Zheng Zhilong was able to defeat the Dutch in the Battle of Liaoluo Bay using European cannons, his son Koxinga also was able to defeat the Dutch in Tainan." The Qing dynasty also defeated the Russia Cossacks several times during the mid to late 1600s," These are very true. Though it's worth noting the context and time: in all of these cases the Dutch and Russian forces involved were quite small (especially Llaoluo Bay and the Tainan campaign; in the border war with the Russians both sides were rather small) and were preoccupied with other issues; the Dutch were foused on fighting their Habsburg enemies for independence and dominance of the Indian Ocean and Atlantic, and the Russians were focused on the battle for hegemony in Eastern Europe (with the Cossacks being very brutal scouts who were essentially used to b crushing or murdering Siberian tribal communities and Steppe Khaganates, and who were EXTREMELY out of their depths after picking a fight with the Qing and Koreans). There's also a matter of technology. The 1600s was the age of Pike and Shot in Europe, so a good counterpoint would be the Hideyoshi Japanese Armies that invaded Korea in the 1590s. Often formidable armies that could inflict defeats, sure, but by no means insurmountable or far superior to the soldiers or technology of the Ming, Qing, or Koreans (hence the fact that the Chinese and Koreans gave a number of drubbings to the Japanese, Portuguese, Dutch, and Russians). That would change and change Big Time by the early 19th century, when suddenly the sail-and-smoothbore-cannon warships and Pike and Musket armies Europe had used (and which were at least comparable to the Qing Empire) were replaced by tentative steamships and more versatile sail ships spewing sshells from rifled or more accurate smoothbore cannons, and infantry that combined both shooter and pikeman into one in the form of a rifle-wielding bayonet using infantryman. The result was a nightmare, especially for the Asian coast and rivers. nd it's a major reason why China suffered an almost unbroken string of defeats in war (even if not necessarily in battles or diplomacy ) through the 19th century when facing European powers. " they also defeated the French forces on land in the Sino-French War." I get a bit tired of this. Sure, the Qing inflicted a number of defeats on French land forces in the Sino-French War, but the French land forces ultimately won the main parts of their campaign; their primary goal had been to conquer the Indochinese tributaries of the Central State, and the Qing's goal had been to protect them. And ultimately the French succeeded while the Qing Failed, even if it was FAR from the "Hurr Durr White Man/European Supreme" one sided walkover that many claim (and in particular the French got outright thrown back or panicked and fled a number of times when they neared the modern day border between Vietnam and China). And it's telling that even in many campaigns of the war that didn't pan out- such as the Tainan campaign- the French not only were not decisively defeated by significant defensive forces but actually continued to expand their beachhead in the face of really dire mishandling by their commanders, numerical inferiority, and disease. (But ultimately the new French government did not view it as a viable conquest and the resistance indicated that was wise). "Qing China weakness was mostly on its navy." Its weakness compared to European powers was most acute in the navy- and the ability of relatively few modern warships and naval infantry or marines to absolutely devastate the communities on the Chinese coast and rivers was something the British, French, and others made "good" use of throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries- but there was also a major problem with the land issue. And this is shown by things such as the French victory in the Sino-French war over Tonkin and Annam, the Anglo-French march overland form Tianjian to Beijing in 1860, and perhaps most telling of all the Russian invasions of Dongbei in the 19th century (especially the 1860s one, since the Russians were still equipped with muskets and smoothbore cannons for the most part). That pointed to something deeply wrong with the Chinese military as a while, not just the navy. And it was quite similar to the sort of decay of the professional militaries we see in the Late Han and Late Ming IMHO.

[@saidtoshimaru1832]

Well, he's pronunciation of Borges was awful.

[@mungohalf-brain2743]

Good luck getting people in the UK to think more about colonial history. We elected a PM who thinks that the Opium wars were a bit of a ripping yarn ffs.

[@colincolin2420]

white guy said he lived in hong kong rural areas for 20 years so he must understand Chinese culture & history . take his words with a huge barrel of salt .

[@CoolHistoryBros]

His claims are backed up by articles from Wang Ke, Chinese researcher from Tsinghua University and American Professor Dian Murray. The sources are in the description. You can double check them all you want.

[@rayray6490]

20 years is a long time. If thats not good enough for you, I guess alot of naturalized citizens in alot of countries can pack their bags because they can never be in touch with their new home with that logic

[@CancerArpegius]

See, if you ask me about how important this is 2 years ago when I was planning to go into history major, I'd be like, this is all blasphemy and stuff, but now, I'd rather have a nice story than go in too deep. It's like asking who is Yingzhen's dad. Was his mom already pregnant before marrying his dad or was it not?(Shoutouts to fellow students of Mr. Yuan) It doesn't matter. You know. I really hate his use of the word "unreliable". Most of 史记 should be unreliable in his opinion as well.