Is a Geothermal Heat Pump Worth It? My Net Zero Home

[@UndecidedMF]

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[@Rhys_Beer]

Can you tell us more about the house, Does it have insulated windows? Did you think about adding a solar hot water heater etc

[@bobdickweed]

I dont think you are the first to get this system in , so you are not the "Guinea pig" ,just saying

[@nandesu]

Love your insights and videos. Though, I think you should relax on the cost aspect. The cost of something is not equivalent to the value of the thing. The value you purchased for that near 100k will last you decades if not more. If you decide to sell and make a life house v2 or v3, you've just locked in that value for the next owner.

[@DampeS8N]

If you took that extra 16 grand and put it in a mutual fund. It would double roughly every 7 years. If you take the 1000 savings off at the start instead of over the 7 years. That's 9 grand you have in the mutual fund over 10 years. Which would become 18 after the 7 years. Repeat. Take 7 more off and that's 11 which becomes 22 after 20 years. Then (22-7)*2 = 26 and so on. Notice that the number is growing. Now, it is _growing slowly._ However, it is still growing. Your system costs you money, it doesn't save you any money. The measure you're using, ignoring how much money you _would have made_ with your money, is how people get suckered into timeshares. Don't scam yourself. All-in-all, though, you aren't losing a _ton_ of money. 10 grand over 30 years. That's about $300 a year. (because we took the 1000 off at the start for each group of 7 years, these figures are lower than the real amount you're losing. Probably significantly but I'm not going to do the math.)

[@RogueSecret]

Be sure to clean the filters, and i'm convinced your heatpump should be working like this, 1kw inn and 4-5kw out.

[@fanriadho]

The richer you are, the more savings options you can choose

[@DPowered2]

The main barrier for living a more cost effective life is to already have so much money you can afford to

[@jamesallen8107]

True... although perhaps not ideal, some installers of geothermal (and solar) do have financing options. In the long term it is still supposed to pay for itself and result in net savings, with lower running costs and tax incentives, and longer estimated system life. But you'd need to run the numbers and risks to decide if reasonable to pursue. Some stats seem to indicate that many rich, or that retire comfortably, aren't born into it, or necessarily have super high paying jobs, but are financially conservative, and take advantage of opportunities to save where possible over their lifetime. 😀 Perhaps this is an opportunity (?) Sorry - maybe I've been looking into these too long and have been indoctrinated.

[@jamessheufelt1730]

My brother installed a Trane ground source system 25 years ago and it’s been great for him. Never a problem having enough heat in Michigan winters.

[@ohrosberg]

I live in Norway, and installed a similar setup to yours back in 1999, and replaced the heat pump a few years back. There is one thing you didn't mention, the option of having in-floor radiant heating system, which is basically hoses that is cast in the concrete floors of my house. That's not cheap either, but the system was delivered with a 100 year warranty, so it's also a long term investment. We love this, as our floors are nice and warm during the winter period, and our kids and now grandkids love it too, because our floors are never cold. The downside is of course that you can't really use that system for cooling in the summer, but where I live, there's no real need for that. Also, since the heat comes from the floor, we can keep a somewhat lower indoor temperature without feeling cold. One downside is that it reacts slowly to change, because you need to heat up the concrete before you heat up the room, but with a good control system, that's not really a problem. The heat pump has an outdoor temperature sensor, which means that it can react long before the room temperature changes, so that mitigates that downside to a huge degree. The heat pump also delivers hot water like yours, but in sufficient amounts to meet the need we have, with four adults living in the house. Whether it is financially profitable or not is debatable, but if you ask me if I would do it again, the answer is yes, totally, the sheer comfort of it is amazing, and the heat pump lasts for at least 20 years.

[@timkors1346]

The upside to this system is that there is a lot of energy stored in the floor and you can add energy during the day. Most of the time there is more energy in the air during the day which will increase the performance of the heatpump.

[@heymikeyhelikesit8673]

Be advised! Your experience of nice, toasty warm floors would not be the same in Matt's super energy efficient home. To heat his home on the coldest days may only require 79° - 80°F (27° C) floors to maintain a 72°F room air temperature.The bottom temperature of human feet varies, but is usually around 89°F (29° C). At these temperatures, the floor will still feel relatively cold to a bare foot. Your home may require warmer floors to maintain a comfortable room air temperature. The floors are the radiators. Older homes with less insulation and drafty, inefficient windows require even higher floor temperatures to maintain indoor comfort. These are the the applications where the floors feel the warmest because they have temperatures in the 90° - 95°F range.

[@dwmcever]

I suggest NOT putting ANY piping or tubing in any foundation. It will leak at some point.

[@ohrosberg]

@@heymikeyhelikesit8673 Good points, and let me add that the floors aren't warm, perhaps lukewarm is a better word, just enough to not feel cold sitting on it. And yes, on the coldest days of the winter here (-15 C) 5 F, the temperature of my floor is probably around 27-29 C.

[@ohrosberg]

@@dwmcever That was also my concern when we debated installing it in 1999, but the 100 year warranty won me over, and it's been in daily use now for nearly 25 years without a problem. So, unless you drill into it or put a nail through them, you're good.

[@TroyFoster1921]

For anyone wondering about how Geothermal systems work when scaled up for commercial properties, they work great for buildings with balanced yearly heating and cooling loads, such as office buildings located in the Midwest, USA. I'm an MEP Engineer and for commercial projects, with the accelerated depreciation option, and Inflation Reduction Act tax write offs (that include all costs for Geo, including engineering fees), we've found that if you will be owning a property for any length of time, it is actually cheaper right now to install Geo on large buildings than is it to install conventional systems. We recently finished overseeing the installing of our GHX system design on the Michigan Capital Building in Lansing, MI.

[@danlangston1321]

My parents have an open loop geothermal heat pump. Pumps water out of the well and dumps it in the lake in the backyard. Unit is from 1992 and still works.

[@WaterFurnace]

Impressive

[@dakota4766]

open loop is a really interesting idea. you need a well anyways so no extra cost there. they come across as really simple systems.

[@methos-ey9nf]

Definitely a great way to go if you have room for or access to a pond. How many acres are they on?

[@chrisE815]

​@@dakota4766you domestic water shares a well with the ground source system?

[@robertdalga128]

I also installed an open loop geothemal system back in 2006. These systems require a good clean source of ground water (i.e. well) in order to keep the heat exchanger clean. Furthermore, open loop systems use a lot of water (e.g. 3 - 5 gal per minute) when operating. I really don't understand why code don't allow you to return the water to the well (since one is only extracting the heat) rather then having to dump it on site. The last thing I would like to add is although these systems are highly efficient they still use a large amount of electricity and natural gas is still quite a bit cheaper.

[@vickiamundsen2933]

I LOVE my ground-source geo. Dates to 2010, and yes the drilling cost was heart-stopping. I calculated the break-even point as being 10 years (my system is entirely electric.) Just passed 13 years in. My electric bill averages $100 per month.

[@marktomlinson3448]

I am in Ontario Canada about 100 miles north of Lake Ontario. My 4 ton Climate Master 2 stage ground source heat pump has run for 15 years with NO service calls, and paid for itself at about 8 years, as was estimated before purchase. It saves about 75 % of the electricity cost that the previous baseboard heaters used. It heats completely without using the back-up heaters down to minus 30 F. It uses a ground loop buried 5 feet down. I added a soft-start unit myself, which will extend the life of the compressor significantly. I have never been sorry I invested in a GSHP.

[@WiseOwl_1408]

Below freezing it doesn't work? And you live in Canada?

[@marktomlinson3448]

@@WiseOwl_1408 Yes, as I already stated I am in Canada, it it DOES work well below freezing outside temperatures.

[@wthomas5697]

I'm going with ground source heat pump but definitely not forced air. Radiant is the way to go. No question about it. So much nicer.

[@IronmanV5]

You have my curiosity piqued with the newer drilling technologies. The upfront cost of this may be higher, but it will be so worth it when the power lines are down and you are at a comfortable temp running off your solar & storage for a few days.

[@Danothebaldyheid]

I would love to see a video on new drilling technologies. I've been following some of the plasma drilling techniques around the world with some excitement. I'd really like to get a ground source heat pump for our 150 year old home here in Scotland eventually, but need them to reduce in price first. Where I live the bedrock is granite, also, and the potential for an Eavor Loop, or some other proper geothermal system is really exciting!

[@ascienceguy-5109]

I installed a ground source heat pump in 2004 for several reasons. 1) I had to do something. My 1929 house had the original coal-fired gravity furnace which had been converted to natural gas. It was very inefficient (the pilot flame was 4"tall) and there was no cooling for the building. 2) My income made paying large sums up-front feasible and we were aiming longterm to keep costs down when we retired. 3) I understood the theory, as Matt explained, and had faith in it. 4) My plan was to add roof top solar PV sufficient to largely power the heat pump, so paying less monthly for power and heat was inevitable. Now many years later I am glad I spent the big bucks when I did.

[@jeffersonoliveiraUSA]

I'm going to start building a house next year, and my idea is to do it like you. Geothermal is the future.

[@Jerry-ko9pi]

YES!! I was looking at that sonic setup. That would be very helpful. I am also thinking about having my geothermal system run around my home foundation. I would have them dig around 6' extra to lay down ground loops for the system.

[@remersone]

Hi Matt , We are designing A Passive house in New Zealand our forever home, and are having pretty much the same conversations regarding Heating /cooling / water heating , so thanks for your efforts and time, its a minefield of tech to go through, and your helping .Rgds Glenn

[@patrickwburnett]

I'd be interested in the video about sonic drilling

[@UndecidedMF]

👍

[@AnthonyFausto-p5r]

Our apartment complex (50 apartments) has "shared ownership" system in place and we decided in our regular meetings to go with a geo heat pump. No HVAC only water so it does not cool only heat, but considering its an old soviet style "panelák" it's the best we could do. Ignoring the benefits you outlined, which we also got, we also are now in a different bracket with our electricity supplier and so overall we have cheaper electricity per kWh as well, which added some savings to it. Don't have exact numbers, but so far it works great.

[@paulmarc-aurele5508]

I have retired from 42 years in the HVAC business and would love to see two concepts come together. Design the condenser with an open bottom to sit on a slab with an earth tube centered and a flat coil with a more robust condenser fan. You would have a simple system that every HVAC technician would be comfortable servicing, and the air across the condenser coil would always be better the the ambient outdoor temperature increasing efficiency.

[@dddon513]

This house will never break even on energy spending.

[@pavelkostov5238]

(The) Way to go Matt! Currently finalizing my GSHP set up, so a big fan. I’ve chosen to go with wet system with underfloor heating on both floors, sort of to create a thermal battery out of the concrete as a bonus to the efficiency. Curious to see your running costs, especially with the help of the solar system. So keep us posted pls.

[@yawson06]

Hi, will you be pairing yours with solar as well?

[@pavelkostov5238]

@@yawson06 Hello. Yes, as 9kw system already installed.

[@ehrichweiss]

I work in HVAC and we have replaced far more geothermal heat pumps with standard heat pumps than the converse. Geothermal works money-wise for larger buildings like hospitals, etc. but the first thing to fail will inevitably be the well and when that happens the homeowner chooses to ditch the geo instead of digging a new well. Larger buildings are able to use it far more and far more efficiently than anything a homeowner will be able to afford to do the same. In the end the homeowner is never able to recoup the cost of the install and they go back to normal systems. It would be far cheaper to just install 20+ SEER mini split units.

[@OrbeezRando]

“I’m Matt Ferrell, and you’re gonna learn something today” Respectfully yours. -Andy

[@ShiroZ31]

My horizontal loop was done with a directional boring machine. Only required one smaller hole to be dug for the loop manifold. Also allows for the loop to be run under your house/out buildings/driveway.

[@Shrike_Inc]

Argument of geothermal breaking even because of federal tax credit is kinda unstable.

[@EarendilStar]

Is it more unstable than the other variables, such as the cost of install and cost of alternatives in your area? Seems to me that no matter what, you need to do the math for your particular scenario and desires. And, yes, that includes the existence of tax credits.

[@Shrike_Inc]

@EarendilStar I would prefer not having taxes for many things. Reality is different. Geothermal is a nice technical idea. Cost of it across the board though - unstable and getting even more so considering labor costs.

[@beyondfossil]

Fascinating stuff. But $18,550 to drill a 400ft vertical hole (5:01) has probably got everyone's jaw dropping. If someone can figure out how to do this at like ¼ the cost (or less) will likely make a fortune! Because the electrification of transportation (EVs) is one thing, but the full electrification of homes is going to be a whole 'nother level especially in colder climates. The grid will be under major stress in a snowstorm since *everyone* has their furnace cranked on max pulling near the 100A limit on the main breaker. Geothermal ground heat exchange will take a lot of edge off of that power requirement. May become critical in certain areas like in Canada wintertime. Basically, all new construction homes could have a geothermal heat exchanger per regulation if drilling costs come down first. The government can subsidize retrofits for existing homes (based on home income) since that will take loads off the grid.

[@vBrolin]

If this becomes more common in that local market, it will go down for sure. Drilling 600 ft in Sweden where this is very common costs about $5000.

[@jf3518]

We have installed a single air to air heat pump. It is the only heat source and runs completely fine at -30 degrees Celsius. It costed 1500eur (current price is 1000eur) and it paid itself off within 3 years reducing total energy consumption by 40% compared to direct electricity heating from before. We spent 18MWh before per year to 11MWh after for electricity (total energy as no other energy source). Our neighbors have a shared thermal heating system and they spend probably 6MWh per year on electricity. But upfront cost is significant and best shared by multiple owners.

[@johnlockington9872]

For the record you have an HRV heat recovery ventilation. An ERV also recovers moisture in addition to the heat.

[@johnlockington9872]

If your furnace modulates it’s speed, as you said, your dehumidifier won’t be needed. Longer cool contact time during cooling increases dehumidification

[@machickman4041]

Matt, thank you for this great video. I am wanting to build my wife and I’s own house and planned to do a post frame building. Slab on grade and was going to do radiant heat but didn’t know how I would supply the cool air for the summer time. I also plan to make this home as efficient and tight as possible. I would need an erv and dehumidifier. I don’t know you could run geothermal for a slab on grade but now I do. My parents have had geothermal for years and they love it. This might be the route to go.

[@danlanningmsscm]

I live in Michigan and have a geothermal system with horizontal loops. The house is 2400 square feet and a walkout ranch style. During the summer, we can condition the house very cheaply with electric bills (including all other usage) averaging about $150 a month. In winter, where daily low temps are regularly in the teens, that bill jumps to $300+ a month and, if used on it's own, never really feels all that warm in the house. We supplement it by using a cast iron fireplace insert which easily fills the gap. This year I'm hoping one cord of wood will do it, but time will tell. One of the biggest benefits that Matt did not discuss is the preclusion of gas lines to the house and the associated risks that offsets. With a house with no gas heat or appliances, the money saved on gas lines, maintenance, etc. is significant as well as almost entirely removing the risk of carbon monoxide or gas explosion from your home. Electricity prices are generally more stable than natural gas or propane as well. Big benefits. Maintenance can be a challenge and costly since there simply aren't as many HVAC techs or services that are familiar with geothermal as well. I would not recommend the same set up I have for others that live in colder climates if they are looking for a home that feels warm during winter months. Even at the same temps as a natural gas system, it never FEELS quite as warm, even if it is. I will follow that statement by saying I would 100% recommend it where temps never drop below 40F and are regularly above that. I think it would be ideal in warm climates where sun exposure is abundant, but tied to a solar system to supplement or offset the electrical need.

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

I never used to appreciate how dangerous gas can be. Now you hear about whole neighborhoods blowing up. I’ve walked around neighborhoods where you could smell gas in the street and residents tell me that they’ve complained but the gas company never manages to fix it because the leaks are happening in so many places.

[@julianfbond1234]

We have built an air tight house and our filter in our MRV (or what we call them in the UK MVHR) is so full of crap it's filtered it's scary. We live in a small town, I can't imagine what it would look like if we lived in a city. The best thing I can recommend to anyone building a new home is insulate as much as possible if you can't afford other tech, at least when you do up grade the fabric of the building will make the switch easier.

[@DSesignD]

Going on year 3 here with a ground source heat pump system not far from where you are. NO REGRETS. Multi-thousand dollar heating bills are gone, and it's just never unpleasant inside - cool in the summer and warm in the winter and never stuffy or dusty. Combine that with good insulation (or an insulation update if your house is old - it's worth it) and Fall and Spring heating and cooling are next to nothing. If you CAN do it, do it.

[@_CJ_]

great explanation! I would say expensive but worth as you solved so many things with that and you can just chill and relax

[@jhuck8166]

We bought a house that lacked ductwork so a mini split system is the route we chose. We love it but I wish there was a geothermal/mini split option. I’ve read a few forum posts where handy homeowners bypassed air sourced heat by brazing in a plate heat exchanger (water to refrigerant) to their heat pump.

[@ryle4h]

Honestly, those ground loops should be city utilities. That vertical well was only so expensive because they couldn't bang out a dozen of them in a day, which they could easily do if they were working from a centralized location.

[@artokiiskinen1058]

We have a geothermal system built in 2007. Has worked nicely with one exception. A circuit board for circulation pump broke a year ago. Cost to fix was only 500 euro. If we would build right now I would go for air thermal pump instead

[@shannonelliott9230]

Love your analysis, as this is the kind of thinking people need to engage in, before, or after even, building. Hope you're still undecided about the shape of the earth, though -- because I definitely have decided it's not a ball.

[@matthewm8021]

I have had geothermal since May 2021 and have loved it. As you said, the upfront cost can be steep, but over the long run it will save money. One thing to note is your cost is for the best and most advanced heat pump you can buy in the series 7. Even a series 5, which is a 2 stage heat pump, would have been cheaper than what you went with, even though I would have done e the same given the option. Your drilling costs seem extremely high. We paid $12k to drill two 300’ wells and tie everything into the house.

[@klaymoon1]

Amazing video! They said your hose/pipe in the ground has a useful life of 50 years? I find it interesting because to my knowledge, no hose/pipe which has a contact with a ground has no where over 30 years in the useful life.

[@vopall]

On top of all the potential savings down the line, you have the benefit of unique first-hand experience for YT content. Thanks for the vid and best of luck with the rest of the house build!

[@robertpeters9438]

I have a 2 speed system with continuously variable blower. It is a good alternative with good humodity control.

[@MarcGXE95]

You might want to look into heat exchanger to heat your pool while improving the cooling performance of the house during pool heating.

[@derloos]

+1 for a video on Terrasonic and other cost-cutting, scalable geothermal innovations.

[@lindalee1743]

Just subscribed, long time viewer. I'm in the same boat, planning my forever home off grid on 30 acres. My current home is 3200 sqft at $400-$500 heating/ electricity bill in the winter. I have the equipment to trench the horizontal heat pump layout, well, pond, and have the solar panels in hand for true off grid. Will watch your updates.

[@ongerimasioge7917]

Me watching this in Nairobi where we have perfect weather all year.

[@KurtisRader]

Great video. Another channel I love which talks a lot about heat pumps is "Technology Connections". Although, I can't recall that channel talking about geothermal heat pumps so this was a great addition to my knowledge of the technology.

[@joeybrazda364]

I’m an HVAC technician and we are ripping out geothermal heat pumps in exchange for air sourced heat pumps because our competition is hooking them up with the well as their water source and pumping well water all the time is far more expensive.

[@talljohn5350]

My goal would be able to live as off grid as possible. Geothermal along with air tightness and lots of insulation makes it possible to live off of just solar

[@freethinker3279]

The tax credit is often just a lost leader. It is not a rebate program so you can only get credit for the amount of taxes you end up owing UP TO 30% of the cost. As far as savings go, a critical data point is your current “comfort level” verses your expected comfort level. By that I am referring to instances where the temperature set points in a house are being based off of reducing costs verses being comfortable. It becomes difficult to justify just based on potential cost savings.

[@zrebbesh]

Hmm. You could use a ground-coupled loop under a driveway, to melt snow on the driveway. The operating cost for that is free. Fluid would run from (relatively) warm ground below during the winter as a pure thermosiphon, requiring neither heat pump nor fluid pump, and 50 degrees is hot enough to melt snow.

[@robincross4625]

In Kansas City, every time anyone mentions 'heat pump' to a contractor the dollar signs roll over in their eyes. HVAC Techs will try to talk you out of installing a heat pump. They say they wear out twice as fast, because they are running all the time instead of only for cooling.

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

HVAC techs not trained in an area will often trash talk that area, I’ve heard them do it with other technologies as well. They will glibly repeat 30 year old misinformation and aren’t reliable sources at all.

[@so88113]

Over the years I have compared the cost of ground source heat pump systems verses a regular high efficiency heat pump systems combined with a properly sized solar system. In every case the heat pump/solar panel system was less expensive to install and to operate. With the recent drop in the cost of solar panels this difference should be even larger now. Combine this with the threat that ground source systems pose to the ground water we use for wells in our area I honestly cannot see why anyone would install one.

[@laurensargent9471]

Terrasonic video yes! My drilling costs would have been 3 times yours-would have needed to remove driveway or fence. No small scale driller in southeast Michigan. Yet 😢

[@philipclift7205]

The money saved on electricity goes towards the replacement and maintenance of compressors, hoses,chemicals, computer chips,fans . On average heat pumps last about 12 years with regular maintenance. Baseboard heaters,with no maintenance, are the enemy of the perpetual maintenance and replacement system.

[@lukasandrysik3666]

You have an awesome system but due to the price it is not for everybody. Here is an very cheap solution I actually have: just a single mini-split air to air unit (aircon) that I have in a hallway. It provides "core heat" for the house and for the rooms if the doors are opened. And then just cheap underfloor electric heat to "top off" the rooms in case the cheap, core heat from the aircon is not enough (the electric underfloor heating was already part of the house when I got it) The price of the aircon was like $1500 including install and it paid itself in like one, two years (compared to using just the electric underfloor)

[@yahorsinkevich4451]

There is one very important point overlooked, in your setup, you have much more different hardware, that, require maintenance, can break and needs to be repeared, in 15 years, the probability that it will repair, or, even, because in 15 years it might not be possible to find spare part on the hardware you have installed, it might even need to be replaced with new units, so, this should be added to the costs

[@williamclark6466]

Want? Yes. Absolutely. I just have to figure out the best way to go about it.

[@getinthespace7715]

I'm going for a geothermal heat pump. I'm installing a field array myself. I'm also building using R-30+ insulated concrete forms and hydronic in floor heat. I'm also considering installing an array for hydronic heated sidewalks and driveway.

[@sparklegemrose]

This was really helpful in understanding how to compare geothermal to air source heat pump systems. Thank you!

[@stevensauvageau8827]

We are thinking about building an earthship and putting the lines on the north side of the house where we burm up the dirt. We put a natural gas furnace in our house for $3,500 here in North Dakota.

[@PaulKriescher]

I would love seeing a video on more efficient drilling as part of GSHP systems for both new and retrofit applications in homes and buildings.

[@caravanlifenz]

Thank you for explaining geothermal heat pumps.

[@karlbrenzel1365]

Yes, please provide an additional video on sonic drilling!

[@gregguiltner8764]

Only you can decide if your heat pump is "worth it." It will never pay for itself through energy savings, but if you can afford it, and want to pay decades of energy costs up front, it may be worth it to you.

[@ptomeo]

I would love to see a video on your hot water system. I'm trying to figure out how to get a HPWH to work with my recirculating hot water loop.

[@VAXHeadroom]

I had looked into converting my oil/forced air + traditional air conditioning system to geothermal with a horizontal ground loop. As Matt suggested my breakeven came out to about 7 years. Probably pulling the trigger on it this year.

[@Zoyx]

I had someone come out and give me an estimate for a ground-based heat pump system. It came in at $50k. Shot that one down. So I installed a couple mini-splits for around $3k. I'll still need my boiler, but expect the mini-splits to help out a lot.

[@muzzledwon1845]

Lovely set up. Assuming nothing breaks down during those years of ownership (talk that wasn't in the video) I think you break even if you're lucky

[@tenbear5]

I’m doing this, in combination with other off grid sources.

[@m0Ray79]

I think that more effective and cheaper way can be water heat storage. Imagine immersing the outer geothermal loop in a large (pool size) thermally insulated water tank built on ground surface.

[@michaela1655]

Will be interesting to see what the life expectancy is like for this equipment. If it is 15 years, there will be a lot of tears for those who are hoping to save money on heating and cooling.

[@Artoconnell]

Lifelong Ac Contractor in Fl. that said. the issues with Geo are primarily techs who have no idea what they are looking at and are genetically programed at birth to sell you a new system. 2. people cheap out and want to use open source water, this always ends in disaster as water quality and sediment tend to reduce capacity until the system just sits there and makes noise. 3. The cost of installing and maintaining pumping equipment all year to replace what amounts to 1 amp for a condenser fan and the occasional use of the heat set during defrost cycles makes this in my op. far too complicated to accomplish so little. Thanks.

[@AlanTheBeast100]

Yes: pls do a video on newer drilling tech for geothermal.

[@LPMSupporter]

Just a note: The drilling part makes it very costly for retrofitting already built houses

[@DogsBAwesome]

I could have sworn I was subscribed to this channel, well I am now, interesting video.

[@JimH48]

Your chart showing payback for geothermal omitted a very important factor - the cost of money (interest). If you had the money to pay for the more expensive system in your pocket, there is an opportunity cost - $16,000 not invested in the geothermal system could be making your $800/year or more. If you did not have the money and had to borrow it, the cost would be much more. This can push the breakeven point out by many years or even prevent it from happening.

[@TheFeaz]

If you see a lot of my posts on your videos, I hope it doesn't give the impression that I'm shooting down these ideas. In truth, I actually really like a lot of this stuff, and in fact share the same goals as you as, although we did not build this house from the ground up, we do regard it as our "forever home", so I tend to make decisions based on the long-term. While I would certainly not be one to say that I want my old Trane R22 system back (that's the one I replace with this uber-efficient variable speed Daiken system), I will say that, apart from regular maintenance, that Trane system, which was installed back in 1989, was built like a tank. It ran for nearly 30 years in this brutal Florida climate (it's not jut the heat-- even though we're not at the beach, there is still a non-trivial amount of salt in the air around here and the humid environment in general is just very hard on everything.) Anyway, that system ran with very few problems (e.g. very few additional costs) for a very long time. All this newer equipment has a trade-off in that its complexity equates to some pretty stiff costs when it comes to maintenance. What really hacks me off as an engineer is that it DOESN'T HAVE to be that way. Even acknowledging that some aspects of solid-state circuit design might not last 30 years, most of these components, outside of the actual sealed refrigerant system, are essentially "plug and play". Manufacturers so some degree, and the HVAC industry for CERTAIN have created an environment where the homeowner's ability to maintain and repair your own equipment is VERY limited. Many companies and distributors won't sell to you if don't have a license, and to get a license (an idea I'm not entirely against) requires not only that you get educated about what you're dealing with and take a test to prove your knowledge, but also that you apprentice or work in the industry for a significant period of time (in Florida, that's two years). This is VERY convenient for the industry, which retains a tight monopoly on the availability of parts. Combine this with the general proliferation of a (largely) irrational fear of things they don't understand (people don't generally understand how HVAC works) and they manage to make this stuff seem vastly more dangerous and complicated than it generally is. I really appreciate content like yours because, if nothing else, it helps educate the average person on these topics so that people can make more informed decisions and know when they're being BS'ed. I for one will definitely be interested in seeing how this system works out for you in the long run. My Daiken system is now about three years old. I did have to replace the main computer board in it only a few months after having it installed (which was covered under warranty). Since then however, I've had zero issues with it. The funny thing (sort of) about THAT whole endeavor is that as soon as the system malfunctioned, I as an engineer conducted some rudimentary analysis and tests of the system, and determined that it was likely an issue with the main computer board. Several technicians and the distributor argued the point with me for several weeks, running countless other tests and proposing other potential solutions (all of which would have cost me more money), before ultimately conceding that I was correct in my initial assessment. Of course, I could have also been wrong, but my point is that, were it not for my engineering expertise, that would have put a HUGE dent in my budget. The other thing, which wasn't an issue for ME, but would be for almost anyone else, is that these kinds of things, while covered under the warranty, often don't include the LABOR to fix them. That labor can often be the most significant aspect of the cost of a repair. In this case, my stepson, an HVAC technician, did the repair so it didn't actually cost me anything, but a visit from an HVAC professional to do that warranty work would have cost me over $200. Even though that board is just a "plug and play" device, meaning that if you can swap out the hard drive in your computer, you could have done this), you CAN'T, because Daiken will only give the replacement part to a distributor, who will only give it to a licensed HVAC contractor. THESE are huge factors you have to take when considering the overall cost of these systems if you live in a place where you can't service your equipment, even if you want to.

[@beyondfossil]

5:26 - I'm not up on drilling techniques but it seems like a single vertical shaft method should be *less* labor intensive and cheaper versus the horizontal loop method. I mean look at all that dirt to move in & out of after laying down pipe over such a wide area (5:19).

[@timident]

Excellent video as always ….. I’m intrigued by the unmeasurable saving to the environment and peace of mind you get by doing it the way you have …. Where I live energy costs have doubled or near enough in the last 4 years or so …… payback looks better and shorter in those terms… you’ve prepaid at a fixed cost …works for me

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

As heat taken from the ground makes the ground colder, it is harder to take more heat out. Less effective. The opposite is true.

[@CreativeFunction]

I love seeing the prices since I live in the same state. I don't really think it's worth having an airtight home. You could have saved a bunch of money and just thrown a few more solar panels up and run slightly more AC and heating and not need the de-humidifier or the air circulator.

[@arlenekufchock1394]

Yes, sonic rig drilling video would be great, please make one, thanks! Also, the Norwegian commentor's system was $9-11k and has newer technology below of rotating wheel that doesn't freeze on heat exchanger, please make a video on how European systems have newer technology at 1/5 the cost of American systems, thanks!

[@gordonlowe5405]

While not a residential system, just wondering if you have heard of Eavor Loop. Would make for an interesting video if grid scale power generation is of interest.

[@WayneMacDonald1]

I was looking at geothermal to retrofit to the house I just bought which currently has a combination of radiant baseboards and in-floor radiant. At present, heating is done by an oil-boiler with a pellet stove boiler in parallel... There are only a couple of local geothermal companies who both seem to think it is not possible to raise the temperatures high enough for the radiant baseboards which heat the majority of the house. I showed them tech spec on dual-compressor heat pumps which claim to be capable. Both promised to take a look; neither got back to me. Frustrating!!

[@JohnnyManu40]

If you can muster the will (And money) to pay the cost, you can get liquid cooling for solar panels. You could reroute that hot water towards your geothermal setup, which would help increase efficiencies in that department along with the solar panels due to being kept cooler more often. And since you are already running water loops, most of the electrical cost is already covered if you plumb it in properly (I think). Personally, if I had the money to do what you are doing, I would go a little further in regards to the geo-loops. Install multiple layers of them to be used in conjunction with that variable system. This way you can choose where you are drawing the heat from at any time. This can prove useful for instance if you get a long winter in an area where the top layer develops a deep layer of permafrost bringing your top loop to a temperature that is too cold to heat anything up with in a meaningful manner. You now have lower loops to use instead; or together. As I understand, most setups are typically just one loop, with excess laid out when they want longer loops. I'm talking about a multi-level tiered system with multiple inlets and outlets combining at singular points for use in the heat pumps systems. This would require multiple solenoids be installed to be able to remotely open and close valves where needed. As for the hot water tank thing. Love it. Want to see more of that kind of approach to things. We waste so much heat, it's ridiculous. We should be trying to recycle it as much as possible into such methods. It's also one of the few places where as much as I do not like having gas in the house, I will accept gas for at all; though with heavy containment and ventilation for safety measures and health measures respectively. (I'm cautious, okay?) The reason for gas in this situation is that ultimately if the electricity gives out for some reason and the batteries/panels/turbines/etc aren't working... you're still going to need heat somehow for the heat pump to operate with whatever electricity it can be given via a generator for instance in a pinch. You let it run from the hot water tank to start up, until it can get enough heat from geothermal sources as well to reverse the cycle and go back into normal operation. Personally, I'd like to see electric/gas dual hot water tanks. That way you can use both for quick heating which is ultimately better for power use; or either or as needed due to whatever is going on. (I like redundancy where it is useful) But I also ideally would have my home setup with methane tanks collecting methane from natural sources like manure piles and mulch compost, etc. That way the hot water is running off of a recycled gas that has been sequestered from going into the environment; at least immediately. Once burned, that's another matter. Anyways. That's about all for now. best of luck.

[@NashtaraIslam]

Great episode on ground source heat pump. However, the use of the Spirax Sarco desuperheater animation is totally incorrect in here. The steam desuperheater shown in the animation is completely different to the 'desuperheater' from the vendor. I hope you'll rectify this within the video.

[@bobmckee6120]

Matt, How much physical space was need to house the geothermal heat pump, the ERV, the heat pump water heater and the desuperheater? We're renovating the whole house and need to know how much space to devote to the system you present in this video. We plan on using the same components. Thanks.

[@Ulkinthor]

I'm extremely interested in new drilling technologies! You could do a video on it with Practical Engineering!

[@ovi9610]

Amazing. $100k is a quite real price for your geothermal installation. (Big secret for owners). You don't talk about "passivhaus certified home". Most concepts are common with your house. Maybe insulation and air tightness are key factors to reduce energy consumption.

[@WeatherManToBe]

As an Albertan, those drills costs are WILD 😮. I was guessing like 3k$ for 200 feet. I hope you didnt get ripped off 😅

[@TheIdiotPlays]

5:00, not surprised, the block I live in was looking in to geothermal as an alternative source to replace the city's greedy district heating company... Oh well, the offer we got was around 2 million euros, not very doable at the moment. (High interest, old poor residents etc.)

[@john1182]

and here i am in australia and i just open/ close the front door and run the reverse cycle heat/cooler if needed, ive never had a bill over $100 a month @ 1$ a day connection fee and 22c per KW. i average 7kw a day or 18kw if the heater/ cooler is on 16 hrs a day

[@TheFeaz]

Before I ever knew that geothermal heat pumps actually existed in any practical sense a few years back, I posited the concept to an HVAC engineer. I live in Florida where we have these retention ponds to deal with all of the water so close to the surface. Given the high thermal mass and conductivity of water vs air, and given that the ground has a relatively high water content, it seemed to make good sense to me to employ this sort of technology. Trying to transfer heat in the summer into blistering hot air at the saturation point with humidity seems quite challenging (and it is). Also, with moderate heating needs in the cooler season coupled with the relatively consistent ground temperature just a short distance into the earth, it seemed to me that one could conceive of a heat exchange system that eliminated the mechanical issues, noise, and inefficiencies of the typical outdoor unit with a buried heat exchange system. A simple pump to circulate the refrigerant would replace most of that complex outdoor equipment... blah, blah, blah.... As it turned out, such systems already exist, I was told. This was great news because I was in the market to replace one of the AC units on my house, and I really wanted to go with the best technology I could find. So why are these things not ubiquitous around here, especially in new homes, or at least in higher-end new homes I asked? One HUGE problem with them... The corrosive nature of the groundwater and surrounding soil. There is pretty much nothing that we have, of a practical sense at least, that would handle the required pressure of the refrigerant that could also meet the required levels of heat transference AND stand up to the harsh conditions imposed by the groundwater and soil. True, you could mitigate the soil problem by embedding the exchanger in a bed of materials designed to meet its engineering requirements (kind of the same way you backfill the drain field of a septic system with soil that meets the percolation requirements for the drain field), but the reality is that the groundwater would ultimately carry in the elements that would corrode (e.g. create leaks) or deposit scale (e.g. impede heat transference) and would thus impose massive maintenance costs on the system that would exceed any cost benefits gained by it. I really hope that changes. I absolutely LOVE the idea of these systems as I could see them solving many problems. For one thing, I could see this kind of approach being used even in conjunction with a solar heat exchanger to provide heat in the cooler months. Ground temperatures, even in more severe climates, are generally pretty stable even just a few feet below the surface. Anyone who lives in Michigan and has a basement can vouch for that. It's not uncommon to have basement temperatures in an unconditioned space in the low 70's no matter how hot it is outside, and in the high 50's no matter how cold it is.

[@mwolrich]

If you have access to those retention ponds (and are not prohibited from using them by your HOA), the geothermal coils work well just placed horizontally in the ponds, no drilling required. If your going through the expense of installing a geothermal system, it’s best to do the entire house at the same time ✅

[@TheFeaz]

@@mwolrich I don't have an HOA to deal with thank God. :-) but I was told that the expense of doing maintenance on the system would never justify its costs. Apparently, it has to do with how corrosive either the circulating coolant is inside those pipes, or the water in the pond on the outside of them. Or, perhaps it has to do with settlement, algae, etc that would have to be cleaned off at some kind of regular interval. I think these things are great ideas, and if they were more ubiquitous, the specialty services that it would require to maintain them might also be more ubiquitous. The very one-off nature of some of these systems is one of the things that makes me shy away from them. People see this stuff and they're afraid to work on it.

[@mwolrich]

@@TheFeaz I have 7,000 square feet to heat and cool, near Boston. I have Mitsubishi Air Sourced heat pump, 48K BTU’s, runs 4 indoor units, and does my entire house (its a netzero heavily insulated house with low air infiltration from outside, .48ACH50), its 5 years old, never had a problem with it.. it was $50K total, without the ERV for new construction in 2017/2018.. if I could have afforded geothermal (about $25K more), I would have done it. As it is, I have almost no electric bill, except for 3-4 months/year (winter), 10KW of ideally located solar on the roof takes care of the houses heating, cooling and electrical almost entirely 👍 I think you’re being lied to, fact is, many contractors don’t want to deal with the newer systems because they are not familiar with them, and they aren’t authorized to sell them, because you have to have someone go to school for certification.. they’d rather stay in the past, than learn something new

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

I would do some research, you may be hearing the equivalent of old wives tales from this guy. It’s really common, though I don’t think it’s deliberately malicious. Now having said that, I’m not aware of these systems being used much in Florida either. Even if that’s true, the reasons may not apply to you. Florida is a pretty transient state, with a lot of very low income residents, for example.

[@palco22]

I can't wrap my head around these numbers and in the end, for what ? When we say it should be good for 20 to 25 years, well get ready for those years to come around because when they do and these prices will have doubled or more likely tripled. I built my 'forever home' 43 years ago (Two story 2,800 sq. ft.) and I did not want an air tight system with the air exchange systems available back in early eighties. Today, after 25 years we are with our second air thermal pump and to date a total of ± $12,000 Cad and just loving it. Less than $500 Cad per year and matched to our oil furnace saving us ±$1,500 Cad in heating cost every year since 1998. I am looking at changing from oil to an electric furnace and water heater. This change will cost us ± $ 5,000 Cad and put an end to oil. Heat pumps are a must for any home ! Always interesting information. Be safe and take care.

[@MrObeytok]

We should look at a project in 2,5,10 years and maintains cost

[@thosecrazyarkwrights]

Yikes! Thats so high for up front costs. The 1st home i bought in 2007 was $84,900 for a 3 bedroom house on 2 acres. Must be a HIGH cost of loving area.

[@leemactavish3104]

Will say seems expensive from here in uk wouldn't cost that. I have airsorce but air to water, mine is 15mm pipes in the floor, you put 150mm celetex down pipes then 55mm screed on top then what ever flooring. Also a hot water cylinder, but only heats water to 45C, what's fine, then once a week a heating element runs it upto 70C for leganella. My floor is 150SQM. My cost was £26500 pounds but government paid £5000 for me so £21500 for it, or apx $26000

[@davidnelson1711]

I would be interested in a video on geothermal drilling options.

[@cerilious]

I'm jealous of your air exchange. Do you use CO2 sensors to track the freshness of the air?

[@bluegizmo1983]

... opening a window in the summer and chopping firewood in the winter is free 😂

[@RandomTorok]

I want a home.. that I can convert to geothermal. So my next house will be a beater that I can get for 100K less than market. Then I'll tear the siding off and wrap it in 2 layers of styrofoam and then drill a vertical geothermal well. I live on the west coast of Canada where the weather is pretty mild so I would expect the payback will be much faster.

[@EliotHochberg]

Since the biggest expense for ground source, heat pumps is digging a hole, is there any wisdom to the idea of planning to dig a bigger basement, so that you get square footage out of the transaction and have a cooler place to spend time in during the summer, and then Putting the ground source tubes in part of that dig out in such a way that you actually could have relatively easy access to it as well for repairs? Alternatively, could this strategy make it so that you could have a more compact footprint for the ground source, heat pump such that you wouldn’t need a large yard at the side of your house to install it? In this case, assuming that you have sufficient soil depth to do it, could you dig down deeper, put in the tubes, then have a full basement where the tubes come into the heat pump system, taking more advantage of the digging process?