Unlike Terran Empire, Which Fell Centuries Ago - Star Trek Discovery 3x05

Unlike Terran Empire, Which Fell Centuries Ago - Star Trek Discovery 3x05

[@chrisstetsko5020]

He is an excellent intelligence agent. Unassuming, observant, keen, intelligent, compartmentalizes, listener, expert with the Socratic Method, controls the mental chessboard, appears nonthreatening but gives off a most deadly vibe at the same time. He will probably go home and forget about all of this and return to his wife and family as if it were just another day at the job. A perfect Section 31 Agent.

[@Ezullof]

I wouldn't say that he gives off a deadly vibe. Quite the contrary in fact - he shows that there's no point in threatening him, and that he remains a reasonable asset no matter what. He's so extremely reliable that it's just better to do what he wants. It's like an absolute form of authority. You're never really threatened, but you're also never in charge. He's who IRL psychologists wish they were.

[@jeibal02]

He is Daniels. Which idk, Im trying to figure out if it fits.

[@Nighthawke70]

​@jeibal02 He IS Daniels. Being born 29 years uptime boggles the mind. And living for so long lends testimony to other immortals being created on Earth. Flint/Ahkrin, Mr. Boothbay, head gardener at the Academy, others yet to reveal themselves. Why Boothby, you ask. He helped Picard out of a tight spot, then Crusher. Which may suggest he is long lived.

[@beckonerseven9517]

Emperor verbally probing for weaknesses Interrogator: *Uno Reverse Card*

[@jlinkous05]

This is someone that she'd employ

[@donaldstinnett5630]

Empress, actually.

[@Nighthawke70]

Daniels smoothly turns the tables on her *DRAW FOUR*.

[@warrenreid6109]

She was surprised by two things: 1. The fall of the terran empire. 2. How good this interrogator is.

[@deathstrike]

I doubt she was surprised at all. The Terran Empire is merciless in its indoctrination methods, especially for its personnel in Starfleet. You learn very quickly who your enemies are, who needs to be watched, and who needs to be eliminated and quickly. They use agonizers like one uses a screwdriver or a wrench, they are taught to talk little, least their enemies use it against them. And the Emperor's level of training and discipline is off the charts. She probably has implants that prevent telepathic scan, and possibly a built in communication device that one simply thinks and it is sent. So she finds this both informative, and amusing, and finds the Federation mere children to either destroy or exploit. This is the true darkness of the mirror. This is us, at least...Us when only the mirror is watching.

[@TangomanX2008]

@@deathstrike She was very surprised. The Terran Empire and its greatness was at the center of her world view. In her way of looking at things, the morality of Starfleet was stupid and self defeating. All her mercilessness and her cruelty were justified because they were at the heart of the glorious and powerful Terran Empire. The fact that a) it collapsed and b) Starfleet outlasted it by centuries completely refutes her way of looking at things. The Empire was a lie, what she wanted out of life was a lie.

[@warrenreid6109]

@@deathstrike no she was shocked. Look at her face. She recovered the fumble but fumbled none the less.

[@josephperkins4080]

@@TangomanX2008 actually no it does not prove the Empire was a lie.

[@stephenbyrne2170]

@@deathstrike She must be shocked though. They believe their empire and way of life is gonna last forever.

[@MalcrowAlogoran]

Now all this scene needs is Garak coming out of nowhere to add his input.

[@bgood8299]

That would be freaking awesome!

[@eduardomattosalves4940]

unfortunatly Garak should be long gone by that time period, unless Cardassians have very long lifespans.

[@wj3186]

Unwanted input, yes. But as a persistent, nagging holo. That would be delicious.

[@tuchehstone]

Or Sloan.

[@JohnL2112]

This makes no sense and is incredibly stupid. It’s also 100% genius, perfect and should definitely happen.

[@edusmart1064]

Even after all these years, Michelle Yeoh is still smokin'...

[@jasonavery8247]

Just saying..... Would.

[@korriespencer8025]

Smoking where?

[@r.a.o.c.2592]

She is a global treasure

[@Dweller415]

2023 100% facts.

[@MemoirsofaBasketcase]

Asian dont raisin.

[@bgood8299]

This is the level of writing I would like to see this series maintain.

[@Wen6543]

This show has a lot of dialogues of this level, specially those involving Saru.

[@jarednil69]

Could be a fluke 😄

[@Chobittsu]

Aye, Discovery seems to have finally found it's stride

[@bgood8299]

@Clifford Terrell I've recently upgraded my outlook toward Discovery to "cautiously optimistic." Fingers crossed.

[@jarednil69]

@Clifford Terrell If you hate the show, why are you still watching?🤔🤔🤔

[@nicholasrolo886]

"Vulcans need to learn how to stay in their lane sometimes" 😂

[@az093123]

"You're not wrong."

[@cameronchesters5300]

coincidentally how Vulcans felt about humans in the Prime Timeline before the Federation.

[@KawaiiSoulB42]

@@cameronchesters5300 Archer enterprise. I feel that.

[@marcusjustice6165]

Especially after what happened to the First Vulcan ship that made First Contact with the Mirror Universe Terrans and Zephram Cochrane.

[@Ezullof]

@@cameronchesters5300 Vulcans thought that Humans should always stay in their lane. There's a difference there. And there's also a difference between the "sometimes" implied by the emperor and by the interrogator. For the emperor it means putting vulcans into submission. For the interrogator, it means that the cooperation between vulcains and other species is stronger (even if it means discarding their opinion) than vulcan methods alone. Sometimes that has been shown very often in Star Trek.

[@Razorgeist]

"And yet it endures, unlike the Terran Empire which fell centuries ago." I remember saying something similar way back when "In a Mirror Darkly" aired.

[@mitchellmelkin4078]

Razorgeist, It could have just been as easily extrapolated from the ending of Mirror, Mirror. Prime Kirk has a clear intuition into what might motivate Mirror Spock to not only eliminate his actual captain, but to pursue the logical ends of what Kirk's argument proposed. Obviously, we don't have explicit validation of that, until "The Sorrows of Empire" was published, over 40 years later (the essential irrelevance of it being officially non-canonical, aside). What the audience, then, could have proceeded on, was Kirk's near-certainty of what would occur, that he spoke to, on the bridge, in the episode's last scene.

[@KawaiiSoulB42]

Terran Empire fell but Terran Republic was born. xD

[@jimmerjabberer]

I love how he talks so calmly and quietly. It gives him this layer of creepiness.

[@babapambazuka2845]

This is nothing. Watch for his character in _Nightbreed_.

[@mikehance6086]

She has her own show coming out about her running section 31 she went back to the 23 century so there is a chance for her to appear in strange new worlds and talk to pike and them again.

[@Lancaster604]

Like a less shouty Jordan Peterson.

[@LordElpme]

He kind of reminds me of the G Man from Half Life games

[@TangomanX2008]

He is like a kindly and indulgent grandpa who likes to spoil his grand kids, except that he could also intimidate and not get intimidated by a ruthless, ambitious, and dangerous psychopath.

[@jerseykaari]

It occurred to me that as the Terran Empire fell centuries ago, with most humans killed or enslaved and since that Universe's people followed a very different history after the DS9 era - the two universes no longer mirrored one another anymore on any level, with the differences growing farther apart with each generation. The people and cultures in one universe could never be "mirror born" in the other as linages were wiped out among their respective opposites. - each person was truly unique in their own universe with no mirror in the other. Without that common link, as the mirror shattered forever, it makes sense that no-one would be able to cross between the two anymore, 500 years ago being a natural, final divergent point.

[@radude4763]

Thats a great point, and i love that head cannon

[@thatperson378]

Isn't star fleet in like major decline?

[@shauntempley9757]

Yes, but only because of events in this show. Not because of Terran interaction, though it is a factor. Perhaps Q showing up in Season 2 of Picard is an attempt to replace the Terrans with the Confederation, which is a parallel of the Federation at all levels.@@thatperson378

[@zomfragger]

​@@thatperson378 Not really. At this point in the series they are in survival mode due to the burn. However once the source of the burn is discovered the Federation moves into rebuilding mode with a planet sized source of dillithum. With fresh dillithum planets start rejoining the Federation and starfleet begins to expand in personal and ships.

[@TangomanX2008]

I think the mirror universe, as a concept, only worked as an opposite for particular things, good federation, evil empire, good spock, evil spock. This sort of thing could only work for one, two, or maybe three shows, but there is no way you're going to get a coherent world out of this thing that would have a life of its own and still be in the same spirit in which it was conceived.

[@MikMoen]

This kind of political intrigue captivates the Hell out of me.

[@Mxyzptlksac]

It’s the writing and the acting. Both superb.

[@crystallastname9675]

Exactly why DS9 is my fave. I love the direction disco is headed in.

[@joermnyc]

Glasses guy: “Play with it.” Georgiou: *smash*

[@daniels7907]

I'm guessing that this is just something that Terran parents expect when they give a toy to their spawn.

[@lumberluc]

Its okay, he has thousands of those. All reconstructing, and all resilient to staying broken.

[@tessbabygable]

@@daniels7907 😆

[@michaelbenjmitchell1]

@@daniels7907 Are you done playing around the Timeline yet Daniels ?

[@Timberwolf69]

@@daniels7907 I would think she might suspect this badge being a device to monitor the conversation...

[@lezhilo772]

I think this is the moment when Georgiou starts to consider that the ideals of the Federation, which she had repeatedly ridiculed up to that point, were really better than the way the Empire does things.

[@or1750]

You have to agree the chemistry between these two is phenomenal!!

[@BeastBoom24]

Discovery’s writing has been hit or miss but Michelle Yeoh always steals the scene whenever she shows up.

[@serronserron1320]

She really is the diamond in the dung heap

[@hdattila]

Should have been her show.

[@DrCruel]

This show completely sucks except for Michelle Yeoh.

[@pderham26]

No matter how good the actress is, she can't fix the writing and direction. This is still an absolutely garbage scene.

[@Bazookatone1]

You might say she takes ......everything everywhere all at once! No I'm not sorry!

[@CrazyNights1015]

I think the interaction between those two was my favorite part of this episode. How he described the Terran empire as "because we feel like it" is so spot on

[@pderham26]

Not how it was in TOS, and not how such an empire would work

[@whiskeyfur]

@@pderham26 That is how dictatorships work. Ultimately, when the emperor/empress decides they want to do something.. everyone else is left justifying those whims so they don't lose what little power/influence they have.

[@pderham26]

@@whiskeyfur Lmao look at the philosopher over here with the deep takes he got from historical KZbin shorts

[@whiskeyfur]

@@pderham26 I've actually studied how dictators and other leaders gain and maintain power in order to keep the stories I write somewhat realistic. KZbin shorts have nothing to do with what I've learned, though a good one to look at if you want a good overview is CGP's "rules for rulers" By no means is it complete, but it's a good introduction.

[@leDespicable]

@@pderham26 Why are you so bitter?

[@Gowrons_Stare]

If the final season were nothing but these two characters talking to each other, they would be renewed for another season.

[@alanbyrne2297]

I love Georgiou. She electrifies every scene because you have no idea what she is going to say or do.

[@pendarpr]

She is the best character in the entire series

[@thejamesasher]

thats a huge lesson for writers

[@Roguefem76]

And also just because Michelle Yeoh gives her such wonderful charisma.

[@Starwalker-lu3ot]

Congrats to Michelle Yeoh on her Academy Award Win. She should have received it for Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon years ago.

[@pderham26]

Fortunately, I also don't care

[@chansophonlong]

I'm convinced he is from the Terran empire. But then why, would he grow up obsessed with the Terran empire unless he is legacy from section 31 and learned it from his parents!

[@daniels7907]

He might consider it an example of what *not* to do. After all, he freely slaps Georgiou with the fact that the Terran Empire fell even as the Federation survived the Burn, albeit diminished. From a historical perspective, especially of somebody who clearly works in intelligence, the meteoric rise and fall of the Terran Empire, which was larger than the Federation in the 23rd century but had fallen by the late-24th, could be very instructive about the *wrong* way to go about building a lasting empire.

[@EckRD]

Might explain why he has glasses on. The sudden blinking of the empress and him wearing one is a dead giveaway.

[@Chobittsu]

Why wouldn't a Federation person be interested in the Terran Empire? I'm a Canadian that specializes in WW2 military history, especially the Axis nations

[@TB.DelcFinnest]

@@Chobittsu lol

[@something6165]

Or his lying about growing up intrested in the terran empire to cover up why he knows so much because he is terran

[@RJLNetWork]

"It seems you created an empire based on the maxim 'because we feel like it'!" BRILLIANT!

[@marteynharinck1874]

Very interesting how he answers the burn question instead of the "who is in charge" question, makes you think about the state of the Federation

[@tcsnowdream9975]

“Vulcan need to learn to stay in their lane, sometimes.” Hahahahahahaha

[@daniels7907]

"And yet it endures, unlike the Terran Empire which fell centuries ago." *OH SNAP!* That has to be the hardest hit that Georgiou has taken from *anybody* since they pulled her out of the Mirror Universe! It seems like the Future!Federation monitored the Terran Empire. They have sensors that can detect if people are from the Mirror Universe and seem to have kept track of events there until the universes drifted too far apart to easily cross from one to other anymore. Also, the growing separation seems to have been ongoing during the 23rd and 24th centuries at least. They went from entire starships crossing over, to just individuals via transporters and eventually no crossings at all. I wonder if the mycelial network has grown to fill in the gap or if now even spore drive would have trouble making the crossing?

[@joermnyc]

DS9 explained the fall of the Terran Empire, and some books explored it as well, Mirror Spock took over the Empire shortly after sending Kirk, McCoy, Uhura and Scotty back. He then pretty much let the Empire die, in the hopes that the remaining the conquered Terrans would eventually rebel and basically copy the main universe Federation.

[@artdogg50]

Yeah I don't think I've ever seen her get rattled quite like that before. She tried to play it off, but this news clearly shook her.

[@AshuraH]

It's interesting that he mentions that there hasn't been a crossing in over 500 years. That would be somewhere between the 26th and 27th centuries. 26th Century would be the Temporal War (presumably) from ENT while the 27th would deal with Kal Dano and the Tox Uthot. I wonder if any of those events had something to do with it.

[@daniels7907]

@@AshuraH - Or if the Temporal Wars (including the events you mention) caused so many timeline changes that the two universes were no longer a "mirror" of each other and began to drift to apart as a result of their increasingly diverging timelines. I doubt that the Federation would have been at all upset about this, since the Mirror Universe has always been more of a problem than a benefit to them. On the other hand, this may have been *deliberate.* What if the Terrans were one of the temporal powers involved in the wars? Being from another universe entirely, they could meddle with the Prime universe's timeline without changing their own. Perhaps something was done to *force* the universes to pull away from each other so as to remove the Terrans (or other Mirror Universe powers) from the wars?

[@b1gjoekrash]

@@daniels7907 You mean something was done like the Burn? Obviously a lot of Terrans escaped the Mirror Universe into The Main Universe. Maybe some of them resented the destruction of their Empire which seemed to start with Kirk and Spock. But Discovery had a hand in the incohesive separation of the Mirror Universe and the Main when they destroyed the Emperor's ship.

[@digitalfutur]

" The weakness of people, is generally other people ". Truer words were never spoken.

[@cosmeticscameo8277]

this guy is like a star trek version of the G man. :D

[@thewanderer9741]

"Wake up Miss Georgiou Wake up and Smell the Ashes"

[@matrix128500]

I thought this the moment I saw it. Gordon will show up soon :)

[@WashashoreProd]

Michelle Yeoh must be a big fan of The Blacklist, because she's going the full James Spader here and loving every minute of it.

[@wehringsnerdcave4411]

Michelle Yeah is relishing in character. Any scene she is in is stolen by her.

[@johnnybarfield4402]

She's just showing her hotness.

[@NeathSpadge]

Love her in all she does. I was so wrapped when I heard she was coming to Star Trek.

[@Mxyzptlksac]

She’s definitely enjoying the role a lot.

[@djangofett4879]

Blacklist 🤣🤣🤣🤣 what a terrible show. it already felt dated when it debuted. the writing in that show is so incredibly corny.

[@fredochs]

The actor playing the interrogator is excellent

[@xBloodXGusherx]

This woman is beautiful but scares the hell out of me.

[@kurtsnyder4752]

I like scary gals. The Adams chicks: Morticia and especially Wednesday, Species' Eve, Klingon women, those liquid metal Terminator gals, ST's (no, NOT "Star Trek" but Susanna Thompson)Borg Queen(AK's not), Gou'ald gals, and BTVS/Angel vampire women.

[@xBloodXGusherx]

@@kurtsnyder4752 I know what you mean. The Borg Queen is just..beauty. I live vampire girls but I hate the over use of Blood when it comes to some characters. Takes the classyness away. Someone like Lady Dimitrescu is ideal to me. She seems to have mannors, class and grace about her all while probably being a freakishly strong person who could kill a room full of people.

[@cybercifrado]

That's because she's a hidden dragon.

[@kedabro1957]

@@cybercifrado ISWYDT

[@janreznak881]

Seriously? A bugmans nightmare huh?

[@brettbrown9261]

...Star Trek IS BACK!! This is brilliant, and I am an original fan!

[@Chobittsu]

Star Trek has never had good first seasons for it's shows, it's always been about the second or third seasons where each series finds it's niche. I'm actually interested in Discovery now that it's treading new ground in the franchise' canon

[@brianlindee1285]

But startrek is not what used be the discovery is like Walmart corporations hire on transgender and homosexuals my point is i think they should keep this kind of content off tv especially startrek shows

[@krisdphillips]

Only Star Trek series to break this tradition is Lower Decks. That was hilarious and well done from pretty much the start. Hopefully ST: Picard gets better in season 2.

[@krisdphillips]

@@brettbrown9261 What is your problem with Lower Decks? Its canonically respectful in a tongue-in-cheek way and is great entertainment.

[@krisdphillips]

@@brettbrown9261 I said Lower Decks broke the tradition.....as in it was good from the start.....I think you didn't read my original comment very well

[@chartchs123]

love this conversation lines, both play their part so well

[@AaronHungwell]

I really, really like the psychologist/interrogator character

[@mikespangler98]

Babylon 5 episode 'intersections in real time' was another interrogator vs victim duel.

[@mitchellmelkin4078]

Aaron Hungwell, He's playing her, and she damn well knows it. By the way, Hungwell? Really? 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[@wa.a.s.nfa.2786]

What I love about phillipia is she's a predator. She really does size up her adversaries and allies she thinks in the long term despite her impulses to murder and Slaughter who she thinks it's beneath her. That's what makes her the Survivor and definitely a leader.

[@ZappaBlues]

Gotta Love Cronenberg.

[@darrenmizzi6072]

Oh shit, it really is!

[@babapambazuka2845]

I was gonna say, how many of these plebs circle-jerking around a sci-fi spinoff are even aware that they've cast cinematic royalty? OF COURSE his scenes will be the best dialogue in the entire series.

[@Amar7605]

Kovich is awesome. He’s one of the best Trek characters to come out in a long time.

[@zenseizure1409]

The fact hes wearing a suit and tie about a thousand years in the future effs with me lowkey

[@Janx14]

I didn't even notice the suit till now! I guess he's very retro in more ways than just the glasses.

[@sirmount2636]

@@Janx14 Many Japanese wear the robes of their medieval past. Saudi Arabians too wear traditional garments. Many hipsters in 2010 were imitating styles of 1910. Fashions wax & wane.

[@bryanchin856]

I was wondering why he was so weird. Maybe a future plot point.

[@Janx14]

@@bryanchin856 I sort of wonder if he's like their temporal expert. He was around whenever talking about georgeiou's time issues and was otherwise rather absent.

[@fastertrackcreative]

Suit and tie looks smart in any era.

[@quinn_gabriell5870]

Philippa didn't know that the Terran empire collapsed and became slaves by the Klingons after she left and just expected someone replaced her as emperor.

[@eduardomattosalves4940]

I wonder what happen to the Terrans in this time period. To they succeed in free thenselves? they recreate the Terran empire or make a Federation like organization?

[@champbaka]

@@eduardomattosalves4940 I think read somewhere that they managed to gain the upper hand thanks to the ISS Defiant (defiant class) and build a federation like organization, probably not canon tho.

[@daniels7907]

Well, evidence from TOS suggests that somebody did. But things like the sexier uniforms imply that Georgiou maintained stricter standards when she ruled, and that whoever replaced her reverted to more barbaric trappings. Then Mirror!Spock brought down the Empire using the Tantalus Field device and the result was retaliation from other species who had been victims of the Empire. Maybe the Empire that Prime!Kirk visited allowed alien officers like Mirror!Spock because they were trying to defuse a mass-uprising by their subject species and it only ended up making the collapse faster? It's safe to say that Terrans were not well-loved.

[@lumberluc]

Well... the Terran Empire wasn't thorough on their suppression. Too bad, so sad.

[@daniels7907]

@@lumberluc - More like they over-extended themselves until even species they hadn't attacked yet knew that they *would* sooner or later. The galaxy is a big place with a lot of civilizations. Klingon survivors hooked up with the Cardassians and Bajorans to form an alliance to take down the Terrans. It's not hard to imagine that other species supported this out of pure self-interest. Even if they were evil too, or especially if they were, then they would not accept being enslaved or slaughtered by the Terrans.

[@DarthTach]

I almost wonder if Cronenberg directed this scene himself. Because it is so good.

[@navblue20]

No. He probably didn't. Star trek is very good directors and when you get somebody like those 2 all you do is get in the script and just say let it rip

[@lucky_spyke]

I think I’ve watched that scene a dozen times. The chemistry between those two is riveting.

[@princejones0077]

So he might be a Terran. He's probably a descendant of past Terran that crossed over in search of Imperor Philipa. The subject of this conversation surrounds around "caring". I think some people she left behind actually cared about her. The empire fell when she left so they went out to retrieve her, maybe hoping she can save the empire. Centuries had passed and they still believe she's coming back, so this.

[@daniels7907]

Considering how duplicitous Terrans are, it's kind of hard to believe that they would put much faith in past emperors. In their culture, if you cannot hold onto power then you were never fit to have it in the first place.

[@lumberluc]

Kind of like a Cold-Cut tone.

[@HansWurst-vr3pr]

Would guess thats why shes acting so strange at the episode. Shes just shocked to hear of the fate of the empire. And may consider If thats her fault, because shes left her universe and timeline. Maybe she will going to try something to change that outcomming.

[@johnwang9914]

Naw, it's more likely that she considers the story to just be an attempt to manipulate her and see how emotional her association to the Terran Empire is. As to her being distracted when Burnham was talking to her, I don't know, maybe she's planning something or wondering if the future section 31 is a threat to her. She's obviously trying to sort out the lay of the land with her question of who is really in charge so she has much to be distracted by. It is the strategies behind what is seen, the unofficial power struggles that she wants to sort out.

[@ashlynnp.9609]

Haha too bad it was Spock that ruined everything

[@pendarpr]

@@ashlynnp.9609 Mirror-Spock was de Gorbachov of the Terran Empire. Although,....the Terran Empire fell under the Klingon-Cardassian- Alliance, ...what happened after Sisko intervention? A terran Comonwealth>?

[@tichtran664]

@@pendarpr Or even a revival of the terran empire. But maybe one more merciful to aliens under their rule. Except maybe to cardassian and KLINGONS. Who they most likely would punish severely for their enslavement. And all the other aliens including bajorans WOULD REJOICE AT THAT.

[@pendarpr]

@@tichtran664 Good Point, Empress Georgiu told us that they submitted the klingon empire with a bomb in a volcano.

[@sayres99]

Anyone else notice how he pointedly ignored the first question about who is really in charge?

[@petepanteraman]

I never get tired of of this interrogation, great job actors and writers, maybe the director

[@scottj.burrell969]

With out a doubt the script is masterful and so is the acting.Rodenbeery would have been proud.

[@josephdoherty5039]

I Hope Star Trek Discovery Brings This Guy Back He’s Very Interesting and Awesome

[@andromeda5414]

He's coming back next season. Admiral Vance too.

[@ECA2]

A conversation between the Emperors Georgiou and Palpatine would be an episode worth watching in a Star Trek/Wars crossover.

[@pendarpr]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/e6vJnKt3eJJ1rZo

[@kmccamis]

The man’s gotta be a descendant of Sloan

[@benyseus6325]

Michelle Yeoh carrying Star Trek on her crouching tiger shoulders.

[@garygee4775]

Great scene, I was afraid Philipa was just going to devolve into the "Dr Smith" of Star Trek but this scene gives her some dimension.

[@redoktober8164]

Man, this brings back memories from DS9

[@Creasy5678]

Seeing this two play mind games is a highlight of the season so far. Plus, I don't believe he's Terran, Section 31 or not-I think he's a historian with a unique brief and intelligence background, probably as an assassin. You don't send just anyone to debrief the former Empress of the Terran Empire, after all. Also, he's gained a read on her remarkably quickly, he either knew or suspected when he walked in that she and Burnham were linked. I wonder just what really happened in the Mirror Universe 500-odd years ago that stopped anyone else from coming across. We know that by the time of DS9 the Romulan/Cardassian Alliance had defeated the Empire and taken over, but if things became so different there about 300 years afterwards? I'd be willing to bet that something far beyond catastrophic occurred in the Mirror Universe and the survivors never recovered to the level of technology they once had. Discovery had Control threaten to wipe out all life to change the face of the universe, who's to say the Mirror Universe didn't have their own Apocalypse?

[@ShawnLevasseur]

What is it about movie directors getting cast into sci-fi franchises, and becoming iconic in their brief screen time? “Ruling the Terran empire with an iron fist is a complicated profession, don’t you think?”

[@ron1461]

This is a great scene. The number of takes this must’ve took… Beautiful

[@tomeif6669]

"whoever started the burn was merciless".....somehow that pointed to me to one specific merciless universe (aka terran empire universe where almost everyone is merciless). Also interesting is that the universes started to drift apart after she left hers. So either its her departure and the drifting apart of the universes that threatens both OR someone from the empire crossed over and caused the burn. (theory...at least I'm pretty sure those 2 statements will play a part later on)

[@elysium76]

I’m starting to believe that the Terrance had something to do with the burn

[@e4unow421]

@@elysium76 Was the Philip also involved?

[@alexandermackie7621]

@@e4unow421 I'm not your buddy, guy! (unknown Terran to a Prime universe starfleet officer)

[@theblue5224]

Wait I actually believe that the reason these universe are getting further and further apart is just because of the difference in them I mean in the beginning it was just first contact but then it started to grow more and more distant whit various events diverging from each other so at some point the universes just got to far apart to cross easly

[@esraeloh8681]

How is this a "That or they" situation to you.. It's far more complicated than that

[@nonspiderweb]

I find the idea that terrans are biologically different from humans a really interesting idea. A random thought that just occurred to me is considering their sensitivity to light, they probably invented sunglasses much sooner then humanity.

[@Phantom19913]

It could explain the instinctual difference between Terrans and Humans.

[@TangomanX2008]

I find it disappointing. The whole point of the Terran Empire is to see a different picture of humanity. That there are biological differences between the humans in the Federation Universe and the Terran Empire Universe raises the question is if the differences between the two due to biological differences.

[@MLPDethDealr32]

Terran is literally just another word for human. The f*ck are you on?

[@jamesbuchanan4414]

One thing I think people overlook is how Kovich handles the fact that he got under her skin with the Terran Empire remark. He lays out her situation, but doesn't overdo the gloating. He puts her off her game, but doesn't go in for the kill, and picking up on her attachment to a member of the crew and, I think, he admires her adaptability. She's Terran, but not so over the top that she can't handle herself in a more conventionally civilized universe.

[@WarhawkBeyond2040]

Michelle Yeoh is the main reason why i love Star Trek Discovery, she owns every single scene she's in and aside from being very beautiful and talented, she kicks a lot of ass.

[@drawnhere]

Such a compelling scene. Finally, a well-written scene from this show.

[@Tvirus12]

Seasons 3 and 4 were major improvements over the first two

[@exposingproxystalkingorgan4164]

Those are brilliant deduction skills the eyeglass man has. They are both intelligent Machiavelliam thinkers. There have never been a slow learning challenged Machiavellian. They can't exist together in the same package.

[@raideurng2508]

Of the two, Kovich is strangely the more sinister and dangerous figure, despite everything.

[@keitholiver19]

She look kind of surprised that the Terran Empire fell thinking she had a chance of going back and reclaim her crown. Compounded by the news that the distance between universes grifted further apart over 500 years ago. Of course there is a chance that the Terrans overcame their overlords and the empire was reestablished. But not in a way that she would remember it. Then I again, I could be wrong. But hardly ever!

[@jamesmartin9401]

Reminds me of the scene in DS9 where Sisko obliquely, but aggressively accuses Dukat of trying to poison Gamor while one of the Weyouns watches and basically does a play by play commentary. Luscious interplay and intrigue.

[@CaptPatrick01]

The events in the show regarding Emperor Georgiou actually more or less confirmed a theory I had when I was younger, that the Mirror Universe is not simply a separate universe from the Prime, but an alternate dimension that tries to stay in-sync with the Prime. What else could explain the evil copies of existing people/ships etc. despite what would have otherwise been a wildly different history. Her own Mirror dimension was one that split off when she left, and as that Mirror grew further and further apart from the current rendition/timeline of the Mirror as more and more cross-dimensional interactions "stitch it away", she began to be erased from existence on a metaphysical level.

[@TangomanX2008]

I believe that the Terran Empire/ mirror universe was originally a villain of the week terran universe as a metaphysically opposite to the Federation (and Humanity) of the original series. So you got to see evil counter parts to the good counterparts of the Star Trek universe. Its impossible to do this completely, but its not something you have to go all the way with if you are only doing it for one episode, or even a couple episodes. To me, it looks like these Terran Human Empire, looks a lot like a Fascist organizsation, and when that episode (Mirror Mirror) had come out, it had barely been a little more than 20 years since the end of WWII. Furthermore, this was also smack in the middle of the Civil Right's era, and this episode posed the ugly question, "Do we really want to be like these people"? Imagine, you might have had a dad, uncle, cousin, relative,etc. who might have fought or even died fighting against the 20th century equivalent of the Terran Empire, and realizing that whether or not humanity still might still go in that dark path was an open question.

[@matrix128500]

I'm not sure who this guy is, but I love the dialogue between the two characters. I'm sure he also visited Black Mesa back in 1998

[@Nighthawke70]

The interesting part is the separation of the two universes. Why, what, how, and whom are the valid questions here. One answer may lay within a non-canonical book, Dark Mirror. In this Golden Age novel, the Empire is working to expand into the Prime Universe, no matter the cost. So they develop the switchback engine that requires massive amounts of energy to go sideways. So they lay a trap for Picard's ENTERPRISE and go to work. Unfortunately for the Empire, Prime's crew catches on and several command crew members, including Captain Picard cross. They discover essentials and their history of the empire's universe. This was sent back to where a Cetacean by the name of CMDR Whee, with the help of ENTERPRISE's engineering crew, built their own switchback engine. They use it to send the Empire's Juggernaut ENTERPRISE back home, sealing the breach. So, I wonder if Whee was able to build something else out of that, and force a gap to widen between the two universes.... It would only make sense. Besides, the opera scene afterwards was a riot.

[@exfromtheleft]

Emperor Georgiou & Michael relationship remains an intriguing part of this series

[@avragetrinidadian3787]

2:07, Yea.... hearing that the Terran Empire fell really messed with her.

[@ParaSkyblade]

Now that I've seen this clip..."You and the Federation are afraid because whoever did this (the Burn) must be merciless..." And then we all saw how this season ended. What a friggin' letdown.

[@LCTesla]

"unlike the tertan empire which fell centuries ago" Yeoh: **mild shock**

[@christopherbacon1077]

Not a surprise that a regime that is based on treachery wouldn't last

[@davetindell4110]

This by far is my favorite Character in Star Trek. His intelligence, calm, and abilities are truly a honed sharp spear.

[@alanparsonsfan]

Michelle Yeoh owns every scene in anything she is part of. Brilliant.

[@skip741x3]

100%!

[@mitchellmelkin4078]

alanparsonsfan, Her acting here may be razor sharp and compelling, but that doesn't change the fact that, IMO, Georgiou's being toyed with here, and is acutely aware of it.

[@Oxibase]

Academy Award winner Michelle Yeoh.

[@AzguardMike]

oh god this is that woman from Tomorrow Never Dies? And the 4th Indiana Film (and the worst so far)

[@thiagodeandrade7081]

You know, only reading his character's article at Alpha Memory, I realized he is David Cronenberg. I never saw him (that I am aware) before and had no idea he had such gravitas.

[@WilliamHBaird-eq2hp]

Michelle Yeoh was incredible in the series.

[@ryansjl]

love this scene

[@johnilarde8440]

Didn’t the Terran Empire fell before the Mirror Universe events of DS9?

[@thomaszinser8714]

Indeed. If the novels are to be believed, the Terran Empire fell with the emperorship of Spock, who deliberately steered it towards it's fall.

[@annam3243]

@@thomaszinser8714 I can't imagine Emporer Spock

[@browonmb]

In ST TOS episode "Mirror, Mirror" there was apparently a "Halkan Prediction of Galactic revolt" that would lead to the Empire being overthrown in 240 years, but with Kirk's arrival from the other Universe (Mirror) Spock was convinced to try and change the Empire's fate (Makes one wonder what more their was to the Halken people and how and why they knew the Empire's end so precisely). It was then implied in the DS9 episode "Crossover" that Spock was successful, not by becoming an Emperor ,but a "Commander and Chief" of the Empire where he supposedly "preached" reforms, disarmament, and peace. (And was a remarkable turnabout for the terrans, according to Mirror Kira Nerys). But, also according to (Mirror) Kira, the timing of (Mirror) Spock's reform was a poor choice and left the Empire weak to be then conquered by the "Alliance" (Klingon and Cardassian Empires, with Bajor along with potentially many other worlds as members). All of that implies the Empire fell within a few decades after Kirk's arrival into the Mirror Universe (And makes one wonder what might have happened to Commander and Chief Spock) - probably more than you wanted to hear.

[@ericmcconnaughey2782]

It wasn't the Halkans who specifically said 240 years, it was Spock when being questioned by prime Kirk in the transporter room. The Halkans just made a vague prediction of the fall.

[@skip741x3]

@@browonmb Funny that when u mentioned the Bajorans, that they have Not been a part of any recent eps ,nor have the kardashians....Uhmm, i mean the Cardashians

[@theelaffingman8776]

That man had her number and she knew it....this guy was really good.

[@ganju_san2675]

The Terrans remind me of the Nietzscheans. Would love a conversation between Emperor Philippa Georgiou and Tyr Anasazi of the Kodiak Pride, out of Victoria by Barbarossa!

[@atanvardo5730]

While the Terran Empire is based upon competition and treachery, the Federation is based on cooperation and trust. That's the difference.

[@CrestOfArtorias]

Neither societies could survive the way they are represented. The Terran Empire would have collapsed thousands of years ago if the way its portrayed was actually how its society operated. Civilisation as a whole is based on trust, if everyone around is a potential enemy, even family that society is by default doomed to fail. Likewise, if you have a society like the Federation that is overly trusting and incapable or unwilling to defend itself, that is also doomed to fail. The Romans were right, if you desire peace, keep your hand on your sword. Most societies in Star Trek would fail in the real world, so making any observations about them is rather pointless even as a metaphor.

[@stephenhowland9337]

​@@CrestOfArtorias And yet the Romans fell to both infighting and outside threats.

[@CrestOfArtorias]

@@stephenhowland9337 Right, because they grew complacent and degenerate. The Romans failed to maintain their societal choesion by overextending themselves and incorperating too many tribes different from them in too short a time.

[@Ezullof]

@@stephenhowland9337 It's almost as if real societies aren't based on two values - the romans "fell" because of multiple factors that spanned centuries (including a deadly plague they couldn't really do anything about), and they didn't really fell as much as they dissoved into multiple entities anyway (one of them still exist today - the catholic Church, with a Pontifex Maximus at its head). Neither socities could survive? Sure. But neither of these societies could even exist in the real world. Because actual human societies are based on structures and institutions, not on values.

[@kuribayashi84]

I saw his face and I was *instantly* like "Wait! Is that David Cronenberg??" Also, seeing 20th/21th Century-Clothing like Dress Shirts, Suits and Ties in a 23rd/24th-Century-Setting was already stretching it, but seeing this attire 1000 Years later is lowkey jarring.

[@gzaros]

Which makes me think he is part of the temporal theme running through the show.

[@AnonEyeMouse]

Actually 31st... no wait? 33rd? Damn it. Blown my chance to look smart...

[@macrussell78]

Plot twist: Cronenberg is secretly a Q.

[@PaperbackWizard]

Wasn't jarring to me at all. Plus, it makes perfect sense. He's obsessed with the past. He knows all about the Terran Empire, even though it fell centuries ago and no one's had any contact with it in centuries. He's just the kind of eccentric who would wear clothes from the past...and even glasses.

[@jerseykaari]

Nah, materials may change, but people have been wearing the same styles of sandals for over 2,000 years, European military dress uniforms have maintained similarities for 400+, day to day outfits have remained similar all throughout the world. Denim jeans have been a thing for 150yrs. As long as people aren't dressing like Chekov in ST III, future clothing styles won't be too outlandishly different either (unless they re-embrace the 1970s or Lady Gaga then all bets are off)

[@moretoknowshow1887]

Its why I love Cronenberg as Kovich. Here's hoping we keep him in the ST universe..

[@jaywulf]

I always liked that actor. Little non-verbal muscle movements. I think we are yet to see her greatest work.

[@andrewhills9746]

Best episode of season 3 so far

[@gerardoespinosa6906]

He has to be Terran. That would explain the glasses. I imagine that in the future most vision issues can be remedied but Terran light sensitivity could not be cured since it was an inherit trait among all Terrans. The glasses probably block most of the harmful light around him.

[@christopherg2347]

Kovach mentioned the distance increase for the 1st time. He already knew she was going to die to temporal+quantum distance.

[@xara2830]

I don't think the empire technically "fell" after she made it the Primeverse, there was probably a power vacuum and emperor assassination/assassination attempt for a couple hundred or so years after Georgiou was taken. If STOs story is to be taken as canon for this theory, after Emperor Leeta either died, or was killed for her repeated failures to conquer the Primeverse, the empire again fell into a power vacuum and this is when slave races/rebels came in and subsequently dismantled the empire, and the terrans were turned into slaves to be used by other races, such as the Klingons

[@gustavoboscardin9351]

I believe that the Discovery comics describe how the empire fell, but they're not necessarily canon

[@daniels7907]

Which time? Remember that DS9 revealed that the Empire fell after Mirror!Spock got his hands on the Tantalus Field device (back in TOS) and used it to seize control. By the late-24th century the Empire had already fallen. It is certainly possible, even probable, that the Empire reformed one or more times but finally just burned out.

[@xara2830]

@@daniels7907 @Daniel S my reasoning here is that the Interrogater says there hasn't been a Terran crossing in over 500 years, Discoverey has travelled to the 32nd century, 500 years back would make the last crossing in the 27th century, about 200 years after STO takes place and about 300-400 after the mirror spock version. Also I believe, there was a version where after the First Terran empire fell, they rebelled against the rebels (ironic) succeeded, and formed the Second Terran Empire, which I believe STO picks up as it's personal canon and, to me, fits Discoverys version of what the Interrogater says as it's closer to the last *reported* date of a crossing.

[@shauntempley9757]

@@xara2830 Yes, STO says that Leeta leads the Second Terran Empire. The last contact with the Mirror Universe. according to STO should be the Battle Of Procyon V. Which explains this interest in Georgiou, because that battle marks the end of Leeta's attempts to conquer the Federation Universe. I have a feeling the Federation here has a few things out, or he is lying to her.

[@sophiawilson8696]

@@daniels7907 that was Kirk's Mirror Universe not Discovery. The point here I'm trying to make is that this Mirror Universe is a different one from the STO's one.

[@AhmerBashir]

I absolutely loved this scene. So much depth in the dialogue and action or lack of. I hope he stays with the series as a big character. Michelle Yeoh is so flippin fabulous as the shape-shifting character, I prefer her to be Discovery's ally/crew, like the wild card we all need. Star Trek has been exhilarating in its return.

[@jackgaines5615]

Terrific writing and dialogue

[@denizb.4142]

I like this guy.

[@2Red2Sky]

section 31 did improved itself.

[@ok2313]

MICHELE YEOH IS BEAUTIFUL

[@FrankBlissett]

Michelle Yeoh and David Cronenberg being iconic together. Amazing how well both can say so much with just a couple micro-expressions.

[@Nothing-zw3yd]

2:58 Her jaw muscles tense. Big, big tell. Flawless.

[@laurentdrozin812]

Great scene

[@al28854]

His charater may not be from the Terran Empire, but David Crononberg might be.....have you seen any of his movies?.....all that carnage.

[@antonioernesto7892]

Michelle is so good at everything that she does. ❤

[@starwolf99]

Future Oscar winner!

[@IronSpyder-ky2lk]

'Whoever did this must be merciless, a threat' the person who caused the burn-nooo hologram scaryyy

[@chefbscreations5974]

God I love me some phillipa. georgiou 😍😍😍. Her dry wit and sarcasm. Not to mention she is ridiculously smart, sexy and lethal.

[@susanthorpe3058]

Glad to see the doctor FINALLY made it home . Doctor served as the surgical chancellor for the Kyrians "Living Witness" is the 91st episode Star Trek: Voyager BACKUP PROGRAM just a guess the timeline might fit. and the glasses well protection from all her blinking

[@IndySidhu88]

With Yeoh on ST: S 31 it's gonna be a great show.

[@FerretJohn]

"The Terran Empire fell centuries ago", in fact it fell just a couple decades after Georgiou fled.

[@VascusGaming]

EHHHH, The Terran Empire endured beyond that point, it existed at the very least well into the 24th Century before being overthrown by a joint Cardassian, Bajoran and Klingon alliance (DS9: Crossover) and well into the 25th Century albeit with a major power dynamic (Star Trek Online) where the Terrans successfully rebelled and massacred their enslavers.

[@daniels7907]

@@VascusGaming - But that illustrates how unstable it was. The Empire seemed to go through surges of success and expansion followed by periods when the Empire crumbled. STO is clearly not canon for this timeline. But, much like the Roman Empire, they probably went through various phases until they finally collapsed entirely. The Federation was watching because the Empire represented a transdimensional threat to them.

[@lumberluc]

Which still marks, The Terran Empire's Fall.

[@sophiawilson8696]

@@VascusGaming this may be a different Mirror Universe, there's an interesting video on KZbin that states that there are many Mirror Universes within dimensions. There is one there Pol and Trip rule the empire together and it still lasted to the until 30th century but this is all in the books not the show series.

[@VascusGaming]

@@daniels7907 I don't disagree with that my point was against the idea that it fell within decades rather it would merely wax and wane in power. But the Terran Empire had still successfully eliminated its threats from without but continued to fall prey to power struggles within.