Unlocking the secrets of LOUDNESS

[@markym3870]

Wow. This is one of the most intriguing videos on the subject of home cinema. I look forward to seeing what your investigation comes up with Matthew. Good work!

[@PoesAcoustics]

I believe I actually have enough new information for a follow-up.

[@Spad3193]

@@PoesAcousticsI’m waiting to find out as well.

[@Risandi_Pradipto]

I've been thinking about this subject for the last two months, Moreover, after reading some of a streaming service white paper regarding their mixing reference level requirement (78-82 dB and 18 dB headroom). Thanks for this video, Matt. For someone working on this field, you are very kind to disclose this data. Keep it up. Can't hardly wait for the updates.

[@PoesAcoustics]

It’s not secret so I think it’s ok to disclose. If this was shared privately and wasn’t available publicly I probably wouldn’t wouldn’t disclose. In this case, it was shared with me based on public information. Further those who answered my questions did so based on the knowledge that this was to help me communicate how this works to you all.

[@MyFatherLoves]

I noticed this exact issue the other day when doing a final peak SPL check on a system using John Wick 4. If you calibrated a system to 85db, with a -20dbfs signal, and your processor's input source volume is set to -0db.... The beginning of John Wick 4 far surpasses 105db peaks for speakers and it far surpasses 115db on subs. This is confirmed when it goes to the next scene when John is chasing dudes on horseback. The gun shots register 105db peaks and subs peak around 115db. I thought I was going crazy.

[@IvanToman]

Hmmm, I'm not sure.... when you calibrate the system to 85 dB, that does not mean that the peaks will be limited to max of 105 dB. 105 dB is just a standard target that speaker must be able to achieve. Depending on content, it can be louder, especially when all speakers are blasting at the same time (as each add up to approx 3 dB of total SPL). Also, what Matthew says is that they are compressing the content in a way that average volume is higher, which does not mean that peaks are higher; in fact, the difference between peaks and average is lower.

[@PIPERBOYWILLIAMS]

I see why you’re rich. You’re incredibly analytical. Eye opening video.

[@PoesAcoustics]

Analytic yes, rich I suppose is in the eye of the beholder.

[@JonasEliasson.]

I am with you 100% on this one! 👍🏼 This is depressing, for sure. I mean, like for me and many other enthusiasts i have a dedicated room build to almost perfection. With top of the line speakers, thx baffle wall, word class woven acoustic transparent screen, room acoustics and a separate apparatus room with good amplification and a Trinnov Altitude. I’m not rich, i am a working class man but this is my hobby my passion! And it didn’t happend over a night. And now they mixing the sound for kids with mobile phones. Sadly 🥺

[@vjm2037]

Matthew, the rabbit hole goes deep on this one and you're in the middle of it! Some other things to consider: a. It's been kicked around that smaller rooms will sound louder for some reason, that's why there is the 82db standard of mixing in nearfield, there's actually a ATSC chart depending on the cubic feet of the room, i.e. 1,500 < 4,999 cubic feet is 78db. b. One of the major differences between streaming and disk/Kscape is streaming will use Dialnorm on the DD+ stream, most times a setting of -4 but could be more, for example The Fall Guy has a -6 Dialnorm setting, which means it's 6db lower in volume than the disk/Kscape version.

[@antonioh567]

Matt, I recall from a Audioholics chat with a Hollywood sound engineer that there is a near-field and far-field mix. The near-field mix is used for streaming as you mentioned. However, the sound engineer mentioned that the far-field mix gets used for Blu-ray and Kaleidescape. He mentioned that the far-field mix is typically 6bs higher than the near-field and that animation movies are additional 3dbs lower for near-field mixes. But that may change over the past two years.

[@PoesAcoustics]

Do you remember who that is? According to the three sound engineers I’ve talked to, the nearfield mix is the residential mix. The farfield mix is the dci cinema mix. We don’t get the far field. I thought what you said was correct myself. Even had said it before. But have since bred corrected. simpledcp.com/sound-levels-in-cinema/ This also supports what I heard most recently.

[@antonioh567]

@@PoesAcoustics Hey Matt! It was John Traunwieser.

[@koberulz]

The Criterion Blu-ray of The Game includes both the near and far field mixes. Their 4K of Mulholland Drive uses near field but their Blu-ray uses far field.

[@EverythingHomeTheater]

Yay! I win, I win! Sharing this video to my wife with an urgent tag!

[@DanielNilssonSe]

Wonderful diskussion! Many of us consume WAY more movies from streaming services like Netflix, or iTunes at best, than discs. That is what’s most important for us to calibrate for. Please think of us when you post :)

[@albinhansson3245]

👍 important question. Can’t wait for the next episode.

[@Beetlecop]

This happens for music streaming too, I worked with a sound engineer who would be tasked to spec different mixes on whatever he was working for based on destination, i.e. Spotify, CD, Apple, etc with subtle changes required for each.

[@PoesAcoustics]

Oh for sure. Music has stems too. It’s far less standardized to boot.

[@scott1063]

I’m finding that the same movie from two different streaming services have vastly different dynamic ranges. It’s not consistent, just specific movies. Back in the day, when LP was our only source, I had a compander (compressor/expander). It tried to filter out the high frequency record hiss when the source was a low volume and expand the dynamic range the rest of the time. It wasn’t huge, but it helped. Records only had about 35 dB of dynamic range.

[@Zachary_Setzer]

Great info as usual. There does seem to be some variance from one movie to the next on this. Some things sound right at 0db, others sound way louder than anything you would hear in a commercial cinema and something closer -5 or even to -10db sounds right. I never considered the difference in mixing levels for TV programming.

[@antonioh567]

I agree. My listening levels vary from movie to movie. Some movies that are more dialogue focused are ones that I typically can listen to at near reference levels. For example, I watched Vengeance (2022) a couple weeks ago and it's a soundtrack that is devoid of loud sounds and music. So that movie I listed to at reference bc there weren't any loud peaks and it was all dialogue that wasn't loud. But Dune 2 and Dune 1, there's no way I could listen to those near reference level bc it sounds like they're mastered at a higher SPL. I'm also watching these movies on Kaleidescape 99% of the time or 4k blu ray for the remaining 1%. The dynamics on Kaledescape and Blu ray are higher than streaming based on my experience.

[@FURognar]

I calibrate to 85db, but I usually listen at about -15db. I have my main volume limited to -10 max.

[@erod9088]

Great, great topic and thank you for taking this on! Look forward to your findings.

[@ThatguyPanda86]

The internet’s most underrated acoustician. I started listening to you from your first Audioholics and Earl Geddes related appearances and am thrilled you’re still out here distributing knowledge based on empirical, quantifiable data as opposed to so many in the A/V world that have a very loose definition of scientific and snake oil

[@Bradimus1]

I don't think they rate them.

[@PoesAcoustics]

They should start!

[@PoesAcoustics]

Thank you. Much appreciated.

[@CarlVanDoren61]

Most never experience High End Majority reviewers r shills w no rig

[@KASmonkeys]

Yes yes please let us know. Thanks

[@johndaddabbo9383]

Matt, there's yet another phenomenon that is coming into play here (and that is nearly never discussed) and that is - "Perceived loudness at distance", where any given Loudness/Volume will be perceived louder the closer to the source one is. Therefore a small residential Home Theater where folks are sitting 9, 8 or even 7 feet from the speakers (center speaker especially), despite being properly calibrated to say 85 dB, will be perceived louder then your larger Home Theaters where folks are sitting 12 - 15 ft from center (and also calibrated to that very same place 85 dB), and even more so in a Theater where one is likely sitting 20 - 25 ft from center. Have you ever heard of this before? Have you seen the studies done on this? I did try this out on myself (not very difficult to setup) and in fact I found it to be true..., and it varies by person..., as with a couple of friends of mine it was even MORE true then it was for me..., which makes sense, for unlike the other two, I have been cranking loud car audio for years and years (close proximity) and therefore I obviously have become more a custom to Loudness up close..., but still even I did perceive same level Loudness to be louder the closer my head was to the source. Thoughts?

[@PoesAcoustics]

I am unaware of any such agreement phenomena and cannot find anything in the literature to support this idea. I don’t believe that there are differences in perceived loudness. Certainly there would be stronger reflections but those would show up in an SPL measurement as part of the total sound energy. Distance to the source changes the amount of direct vs reflected energy. Other than that, 85dB is 85dB.

[@pb24dagrk]

I've seen this in the ATSC guide, they have a perceived loudness table based on cubic footage of the room. Also, in the Dolby Atmos for Home guide, they recommend level matching to 79-82dB when using a -20dBFS tone (instead of 85dB). I'm also curious how dialnorm is used universally. Some processors ignore it while others apply it. I feel like we are all listening to movies differently.

[@PoesAcoustics]

@@pb24dagrk I just looked it up. You are correct. Though ATsC doesn’t state why. Only that the monitor level is reduced with smaller volume spaces of a given category.

[@johndaddabbo9383]

@@PoesAcoustics And I feel that it is actually more a matter of perceiving the closer sound as more "in your face" / as more "aggressive" / and therefore more annoying in a sense, then perse Louder. So nevertheless the closer one is to the same loudness, the more one desires it to be slightly lower in level. Ps. I noticed that it helps to perform the Test on oneself using an aggressive sound / someone yelling / etc. Oh and I don't sense a difference between 6 ft and 8 ft, however I do between 6 ft and 12 ft..., also the Level (Test) must be run at very high levels (so as to be near one's comfort level to begin with... otherwise it's not at all apparent..., and why would it be at low levels 😉).

[@FOH3663]

I recall a Meyer Sound white paper exploring this very topic ... performed their own measurements studied this at length ... iirc yielded similiar conclusions, one being the correlation of a room's volume affecting ref level (our perception of reverberant energy).

[@Ian4k4]

I comprehended more after a second view. I heard that some streaming services might be cutting the lower bass . Saving on data storage I guess.

[@geickmei]

Good one Matt - of course, we can set our volume levels to taste no matter what they do, but some good info!

[@2gnospam]

Thanks for this information. I look forward to what you find out in the end, and what your recommendations would be.

[@darrenchase886]

Thank you for doing this i been waiting for a video like this for a long time

[@PoesAcoustics]

More to come!

[@darrenchase886]

Thanks you're very welcome

[@adamjj85]

I just keep an SPL meter handy in the theater and always set my volume based on that instead of just using the scale on the processor. Like you said, different sources are all over the place when it comes to mastering.

[@ediarapi2213]

That mister Rodgers thumbnail haha

[@MyFatherLoves]

I look forward to the findings of your results!

[@t-rex1480]

Very informative and great investigation Matt! I look forward to your follow-up videos with your findings. Yes, how sad we cannot get a similar to cinema mix. As you stated I knew the mixes were different but not nearly as different as you described. Hopefully this can be changed in the future!

[@steakhoux]

I would guess that a rock concert would be far mor dangerous for your hearing than watching some movies. The dynamic compression of movies for residential is a big bummer though. I always found out ref level way too loud that's also why I (and maybe some other people) asked how it can be that their speakers would not be able to reach this when it is already too loud at -10 db.

[@adrianbarac3063]

Great info.Thank you:)

[@kevind4061]

I feel the commercial interruptions during KZbin videos blast at reference :'(

[@Audfile]

Subscribe. Boom, no commercials, everything locked at 1080P and you can download videos. The commercials are insane. They'd have to pay me to put up with that.

[@Masterslessons]

Yes it's a two way street here. Google used to do this and (still) so on KZbin to allow 3db rise on commercials to market to the individual better. Issue, is old content back pre 2013" ish the mics before sucked so bad so the difference is more like 9db. You have to panic and change up as your center will scream. Non Google like apple don't do that. Thank God

[@DDenton46]

I am definitely interested in this. I really hope you get this figured out. Also some major pressure needs to be put on the movie and music Industries for standards on all this! Me personally I always have trouble when I want to turn things up with the tweeters getting distorted cuz of all the different mixes and everything. It seems no matter how you calibrate things how poorly or how well there's always trouble with the tweeters when you want to turn up the volume. Now for me it could be because I have no room treatments and I have a crappy room my stuff set up in. But I'm sure figuring things out like this and getting some standards would very much help everybody.

[@chandan6119]

Denon receivers have a dialnorm defeat option. which would make streaming mixes as loud as the regular bluray versions .

[@filmses]

😱 How to find the setup? ☺️

[@chandan6119]

@@filmses just disable loudness management in your reciever

[@filmses]

@@chandan6119is it for this purpose? I am not sure

[@alfa1904]

Thank you for posting this information. What you are saying is exactly what a mix engineer who posts on AVS forum as Filmmixer and on ASR as Soundmixer has said for a few years on the topic of '"Reference" level - that only the Cinema mix is mastered to a reference of 85/105 DB, and that all home media, streaming and disc, are mastered at between 75-79 DB, with a hard digital limiter of 20 DB for peaks, meaning that "reference level" will never exceed peaks of 99 DB on any home media, and may well be less depending on the specific movie or show. My question is does this affect your opinions and recommendations regarding the output requirements of speakers needed to provide a "reference level" home theater experience? I realize that specific recommendations would depend on seating distance and room size, but generally would this open up the possibility of using speakers with better tonality but less output capability than would be necessary to hit peaks of 105 DB? It seems that speakers with great tonality and great output, such as some Revel or Perlisten speakers, are very expensive (at least for most people), and that one would have to sacrifice either output or tonality, generally speaking, to outfit a more affordable system. But I would think many more affordable speakers with excellent tonality from say KEF or Philharmonic Audio or Ascend Acoustics (I know there are several others) would be able to handle peaks of 99 DB from moderate seating distances, so would such a system that "sounds good, plays loud enough" be a better choice than a system that "sounds good enough, plays loud" given that reference level is really 6-10 DB less than the 85/105 standard most people (wrongly it seems) assume?

[@PoesAcoustics]

Yes it does. Having learned this it’s made me reconsider this. I am actually working on a white paper on this topic with a colleague in the industry. It will be published with CEDIA and then I’ll do some videos on it. We’ve been pushing cinema reference as the standard. Even CEDIA did in RP22. But I think that was a mistake. Not only would the speakers not need to hit 105, or anywhere near that, but listening at 85/105 for content mastered much lower is likely a problem. Because the voices are recorded at -27 LKFS instead of ~-31 LKFS. So voices are louder relatively speaker and would become too loud if turned up. Surround channels are also turned up.

[@bloodcarver913]

I have been adjusting my surround speakers FOR YEARS. +3db. There are supposed to be a mixing standard that sets the surrounds to -3db. To avoid that (it is called surround sound for a REASON) i set all mine to +3db sides/rear. Works perfectly. I can count movies on ONE HAND that have deviated from this. Btw. I listen to around -2/3 db below 75. Depends on the time of the day/night.

[@pauldavidthomasfrodo]

On my Trinnov system with Ascendo speakers all round and 4 x Active Subs. I'm running between -20 and -28. Unless I've had beer and then I might go to -15 ish. I've never listened at -10 or higher. It's just too loud.

[@Masterslessons]

Those ascendo don't need to be pushed hard great stuff

[@pauldavidthomasfrodo]

@@Masterslessons Nope, they don't need too much power from the amps as they are so sensitive. The12's are 99db sensitive. Running 12 Ascendo speakers, Trinnov and various other bits of kit it was all drawing 350Watts ( ish ). Decent speakers means less powerful amps in my opinion. Running Hypex amps.

[@Masterslessons]

@@pauldavidthomasfrodo nice must be pretty comfortable at lower volume that sounds nice 💯

[@bboyspawn5891]

I've tried reference level in my home, not dedicated room. It does seem too loud and it irritated my ears. I assumed this was because of the distance between my side surrounds. The front stage was powerful, but it didn't bother my ears.

[@adamjj85]

I'd definitely be interested in more data on exposure at different SPL for movies. I have always been cautious of listening more than 80db average SPL based on the OSHA standards and also >80 just seems too loud to me.

[@andrewskaterrr]

Missed you at MWAVE. Hope everything is ok and we get to see you next year.

[@PoesAcoustics]

Thanks. I am ok. It was more family health. But everyone is ok. I just needed to e available to support my family.

[@jamiet74]

Hey Matt, ive seen recommendations before based on room size, ie -7dBFS MV in a room under 2000cu ft being the subjective equivalent of Reference level in a much larger room/ commercial cimema,. Any thoughts? *Edit* It was Rooms 20,000cu ft @ 85dB Rooms 10,000 -20,000 @ 82dB Rooms 5,000-10,000 cu ft @ 80dB Rooms between 1500 - 5000 cu ft @ 78dB And rooms under 1500 cu ft @ 76dB This was from a SMPTE file i have saved on my pc

[@jamiet74]

Also...In my own personal experience.....I see a lot of movies at the cinema, and (IMHO) my home cinema is capable of reference level playback (I have high sensitivity PSA mtm210 speakers for LCR and mt110 for surrounds + 3 x Seaton Submersives subwoofers in a

[@adamjj85]

This makes sense to me as I am in the 1500-5000 category and I always find myself settling around 78db as a comfortable listening level.

[@jarodreddig63]

Fantastic video. It’s been apparent that the near field mixes are lacking. I wish they would include the theatricls mix as an option like back in the DVD days.

[@PoesAcoustics]

Well I am hoping to talk to some folks more knowledgeable than I. My understanding is that the theatrical mix can’t be ported to residential. They aren’t compatible. There is the original hero mix and both cinema and residential come off that. But as I understand, the objects are assigned and mixed separately between the two making the atmos in residential fundamentally different from the cinema mix.

[@liutungwei5160]

Louder or softer mix is not the main problem here in my opinion. The more important one is how to standardize the loudness of every movie. Some sounds soft, some sounds loud while others super loud.

[@andrewcremins]

In addition to the issues you speak of in this video, is it also possible we aren't all talking about the same 0 db? I found 0 db using my AVR's auto calibration to be uncomfortably loud at times. After many hours doing my best to copy Anthony Grimani's calibration approach, I found listening to the same movies at 0 db to be very loud, but not painfully so. I assume this is because a target curve with high frequency roll off may attenuate some of the full bandwidth mix that becomes painfully loud. Also could be placebo as I'm sure I was primed to think what was done after lots of manual effort sounded better. If I am correct about the impacts of a system's target curve, then I would imagine this would stack on top of the release format issues you discussed today. Compounding that with personal taste differences of the viewers, we get these huge 15-20 db ranges in the 'its too loud' point. Short of getting access to the 'hero mix' you mentioned, it would be really nice if formats supported adding meta data around the SPL and EQ so we could match the intended playback of the release as closely as possible.

[@Zachary_Setzer]

Just listened to this again. Did you ever get an answer from Kaleidescape about whether they get a different mix?

[@MagicTK-]

So if there is eventually an "industry standard", does that mean discs (or streaming) would be labeled so we know if they meet the loudness and compression and dynamic range criteria? How would people know if they need to adjust their volume up or down to meet "reference level"?

[@isak6626]

How about embedding loudness (i.e. ref level etc.) metadata into the Atmos stream so that our AVRs/processors/devices can automatically adjust the playback level and calibration settings correctly? That's kind of how Dolby Vision works, it adjusts the image to your display's capabilities.

[@MuenchenBob]

Good question. I would guess that would take just a few bits of data.

[@americanidle1277]

I usually listen at -10db below my Calibrated Reference level. And I've noticed not all movies are the same, some I turn up to reference level especially old movies that only have a 4ch Dolby Surround mix, probably because the content of 4 channels will have less total energy than 7.1 mix and im up mixing to 9.2 channels.

[@PoesAcoustics]

I could see that.

[@KASmonkeys]

Like I do for music, for theatre use I'd pay more money for higher dynamics in a movie any day (if there was ever an option). Also keep in mind (movie corporations/engineers) we can always control for less dynamics in TVs/soundbars etc but not the other way! Sucks when this is forced on us 😭

[@PoesAcoustics]

I agree and that was what I didn’t understand. I mean, if Dolby wanted to control the processing. Simply make it a feature of Atmos decoding. Yes not all dynamic compressors are created equal. But fine, build a good one and include it in the decoder.

[@commanderrussels2612]

great video matthew!

[@BobFrostV]

I just turn the volume up until talking voices are as loud from the content as in real life. Usually around -40 to -30 depending upon the streaming app. Then I've added LF eq to give good impact like you'd perceive at reference.

[@ferdinandbardamu3945]

If I was at Kaleidescape I’d market the crap out of this: Are you tired of phone sound? Come to us for the original cinema sound!

[@Zachary_Setzer]

Disappointed you didn't do the actual video in the Mr. Rogers outfit from the thumbnail.

[@PoesAcoustics]

Hah I can do that next time. I like that sweater quite a bit actually.

[@Zachary_Setzer]

@@PoesAcoustics Same here. Looks sharp with the shirt and tie.

[@TrueStereo-]

For older movie you may be better off using the video disc audio track and syncing to Blu-ray or 4k. The Untouchables comes to mind. Never thought any version came close to what I saw in the theater or heard on video disc or VHS!

[@Masterslessons]

All older pre 2013 movies should all be remastered to get the center channel voices more to today's standard. Not happening on some 4k transfers.

[@njrumenos]

Maybe one day we will see processors smart enough to utilise an active mic that’s permanently within the room that tracks content played and compensates for sub bass, bass, mids and high levels depending on how the content was mixed and the given play back level, even if the studios were mixing to a “standard” there is already so much content that’s all over the place that exists and even with new content being dubbed to a standard there will always be some discrepancy. You could think of it as an active auto calibration that’s tracking content being played at any given level and making the adjustments necessary, maybe it’s possible maybe it’s not but there is always a way forward.

[@MuenchenBob]

Thanks for the interesting overview. I thought from the title that you were going to discuss dynamic EQ, which aims to maintain the same perceived frequency response as volume decreases from the reference level. It's especially helpful in maintaining bass as volume decreases. The different reference levels you describe explain why my dynamic EQ setting sometimes needs to be recalibrated depending on the source. For a topic that impacts listening to such a great extent, it's rare to find reviews of processors that even mention it. Some offer single dB control, while others are much less granular. Anthem is the only manufacturer I'm aware of that completely omits it. Wikipedia has a good discussion of the topic: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour.

[@isaiahang6739]

Is this a more recent practice in home releases? Like do older blu rays (pre-streaming dominance) that have loseless audio have "better" audio mixes than more recent releases?

[@PoesAcoustics]

Yes I was told that some (not all) of the pre-Atmos tracks would be from the cinema far field mix. With current practices that is no longer true.

[@alfonzooliviera1121]

Question: On the back of the Dark Knight Trilogy in 4K it says Original Theatrical Audio....so are we being lied to or are those movies some of the few that are theater audio

[@PoesAcoustics]

I will ask my contacts. My guess is that they didn’t lie, they mislead. It might be possible to extract the soundtrack and then analyze it too. If someone wants to be so helpful, If the soundtrack analysis shows 31-32 lufs, that’s dci theatrical mix. If it’s 25-28 lufs, that’s nearfield mix.

[@adrianadrianp5305]

It would be very good to see how the real quality of DTS-HDMA, ATMOS, DTS-X and other formats compare with compression and dynamic range. I am happy with redbook Cd quality if done well, may ATMOS tracks for me can sound less dynamic and somewhat compressed ?

[@PoesAcoustics]

Do you mean that the Dolby Atmos music sounds more compressed than Redbook cd version of that song? If so, then yes that’s possible. But it has nothing to do with Atmos. It’s because newer music is often more compressed and much louder than older music. Making it a lot less dynamic. DD+ is the more common encoding method used for Dolby Atmos. It’s a lossy compression and can impact sound quality a little. By contrast, Kscape and discs used Dolby True HD offers lossless compression similar to Flac. It allows perfect reproduction of the sound. However the source material still needs to be good. Most music comes in already ruined.

[@adrianadrianp5305]

@@PoesAcoustics Mathew, thanks for the reply, in my experience Red book done well is very good indeed and I understand the 'loudness' driven compression is hopefully being reduced, or less of a trend than a few years ago. I would be delighted if I was able to attain multichannel CD quality recordings. At home I run a CD through the mulitchannel DAC just playing L,R channel (and aligned subs) and the majority of film tracks are not as good. In also find ATMOS for some reason worse than DTS-HD. Although by choice I run a 7.1(5) set up

[@Ian4k4]

Have I got this right? If Reference level maximum volume is 85db then movie peak volume for any parts of the soundtrack should not break 85db. [The directors intent] Anything not dramatic will always be under reference. (which makes sense ) Should we set the receiver to not break 85db. Streaming lesser quality sources or being a bit deaf might make a dynamic EQ receiver setting a good option.

[@SamuelOrf]

85db is the average level. Reference can, and your system should be able to hit, 105db. One step further is you should aim to have 10db of headroom, meaning a system that can hit 115db. Not easy to do. :)

[@PoesAcoustics]

That would really be extreme. It’s 3dB of headroom that we shoot for. And really 105 already has headroom in it. The crest factor of sound would not likely allow content to achieve max rms levels of 105dB as the peaks would be heavily clipped.

[@PoesAcoustics]

85 is the average. Not the max. Max is theoretically 105d. As Samuel mentions. I am not sure what I said that made you think otherwise. Apologize for the confusion.

[@Ian4k4]

@@SamuelOrf Thanks! I can understand equipment having the ability to play that loud without stressing out, but listening to movies at that level, no. (personal taste) If the charts are correct, a kitchen blender runs at around 80db, not great for a conversation. A little bit more and you've got a lawn mower. (shot by your neighbour.) I think ambient sounds, music etc during a conversation are the things that hassle people. (background music) Apple Airpods are rated to 110db but now are also being marketed as hearing aids. Talk about creating your own customers. If spatial audio speakers, headphones are replacing, noise cancelling ones are replacing room treatment.

[@Ian4k4]

@@PoesAcousticsI was born confused! :)

[@AV84USA]

Hi Matt. I had a question in a previous video, but after watching, I have two questions. I have a 5.1 system that I’m happy with, and it’s using Paradigm Reference standing R and L with the matching Center speaker, with similar Paradigm in-wall surrounds. I just upgraded to a Yamaha A4A and only have the ability to do a 5.1.2 Atmos-ish setup but wonder if it is worth it. (The AVR does 7.1, but I’m not interested due to small room and seating) My room is 11x15x8 used as a living room, having a couch on each of the long walls and 3 retractable theatre chairs along the back wall that’s rarely used. Do you think adding two in-ceiling speakers would be an upgrade or just add noise? Second question. You mentioned certain Paradigm speakers not be up to the task. I had planned, if I decided to add ceiling speakers, to install Paradigm’s ci home angled tweeter in-ceiling speakers, or perhaps the ci pro step up version. Do you think those are a good choice to match my LCR, or is there another speaker/brand/model that you think might better serve me? Also, you mentioned an enclosure for in ceilings? How’s that work for that type of install, where you cut the hole and the speaker clamps into the drywall? Do they make a product that can be positioned in the hole to provide an enclosure? I saw some foam type product years ago, but I’m not sure if that would work.

[@ThatguyPanda86]

Adding an additional pair of in ceiling speakers will allow you to hear the objects panned left to right and front to back exponentially better. Assuming of course it’s a well engineered mix. That being said room size certainly comes into play and I’m smart enough to know there’s A LOT I don’t know but I can tell you from my own personal experience and installing and calibrating a few dozen 5.2.4 to 9.6.4 cinemas through friends and family as well as word of mouth, that having 4 as opposed to 2 overhead or height speakers does generally improve the experience provided they’re properly placed and the room is large enough so that your listening position is able to be optimally placed in reference to the overhead channels.

[@AV84USA]

@@ThatguyPanda86 I’m assuming you read that I have the ability to do 5.1.2? I do not have the ability to do 5.1.4, so is it your opinion that it is not worth doing? I’m really hoping to hear Matt’s thoughts on this, too. My options are 5.1 or 5.1.2, that’s it.

[@ThatguyPanda86]

@@AV84USA I mean 5.1.2 is certainly better than no Atmos.

[@perrysmiles60]

@@AV84USA Absolutely!.. add some in-ceiling speakers or side heights (if you don't want to make holes in the ceiling, install one speaker mounted on each side wall facing your MLP). Even if you won't get sound panning like a .4 Atmos set-up, your listening experience will be more immersive when watching movies. Now, understand that this is the opinion coming from a home theatre enthusiast, I'm all about movies, not a music kind-a-guy. So not sure what Matt suggests here, but definitely consider his valuable opinion. Ciao!

[@XudenGroupLLC]

We are at Mwave 2024 and they said Kacape have their own mix.

[@PoesAcoustics]

They do not. Kscape has the same mic as everyone else. It was confirmed by Luke O’Brien. He said they get the standard master nearfield mix provided by the studio. Just like everyone would.

[@ballstadt]

Very interesting. I have a Kaleidescape and while it does sound fantastic, I typically never touch my volume but I’ve noticed a few titles in the last 6-8 months that I’ve needed to turn it down as much as 8 notches on the Anthem.

[@vjm2037]

This is because some movies levels are mixed over the 85db average, for example Dune: Part Two is around +6.5 higher at around 91.5 db. There are also movies mixed lower than the 85db average, for example Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse is around -5 db lower at around 80db. These would need to be lowered in volume or raised depending on your normal listening level.

[@CustomPCBuilderUK]

Not even IMAX Enhanced? It was said to be using the "full fat" theatrical mix on disc. Although in terms of content, there are not many movies in IMAX Enhanced on disc... Very interesting regardless, for me personally I think the current mixes are plenty loud. Heavily dependent on the size of the room though, as bigger rooms naturally require more volume to fill with sound.

[@PoesAcoustics]

My understanding is that the cinema mix is not compatible with the home formats and is a completely separate mix. Imax enhanced would just be a stem off the master. Which I am told likely was done in atmos in the first place.

[@CustomPCBuilderUK]

@@PoesAcoustics Thanks, DTS has been 10dB louder than Dolby in years gone by, not sure if that's still the case but the IMAX Enhanced content I've heard sounds much louder than regular DTS-HD 😅 I wonder if they are mastering at more than 10dB. Thanks for the informative videos, very much appreciated! 👍

[@ProfoundAV-123]

I have a Kaleidescape 6TB Strato S and is disappointing if all they are getting is the Residential Mix and not the cinema Mix. That to me is taking away from the Home Cinema experience. I thought the mezzanine file they get was the Cinema file that they then do there on transfer. They really need to get the Cinema mix because most of us use dedicated Hats or some variety of that.

[@PoesAcoustics]

It’s certainly not the cinema mix. That isn’t compatible. The question was whether they get a residential mix that is in line with the cinema mix. There is still the very important advantage of a lossless encoded soundtrack. With the failure of discs, there is no other way to get that. The audio quality is still leaps and bounds better than streaming.

[@ProfoundAV-123]

@@PoesAcoustics Thanks for clarifying. Fingers crossed they are getting the mix in line with the Cinema Mix and if not they need to change that approach yesterday. Can’t wake to hear what they say. Awesome video by the way!

[@Azzy_Mazzy]

couldn't the mixed level be included in the metadata like HDR metadata? i have found most include a Mastering display luminance and color primary and some do include maximum Content Light Level maximum Frame-Average Light.

[@PoesAcoustics]

It certainly could be. But it’s not.

[@Azzy_Mazzy]

@@PoesAcoustics how hard is it to convince some of the people working in the mixing studios to start including it?

[@darrenchase886]

Is there so many variables that do go on like misleading Amplifier power and speaker sensitivity plus the source material with regardless of All other thanks plus the room itself

[@MrFallred]

Are you saying movies on blu rays are also getting these inferior mixes? Why would that be; people dont watch those on tablets? Or is it just one mix released to all formats?

[@PoesAcoustics]

One mix releases to all formats. There is only one master residential mix and these changes are inherent in that master by which the stems come off. So no way to offer anything else.

[@seantong6105]

Disney definitely do something off with their blu-rays in recent years - I play Force Awakens at -15dB and Last Jedi & Rise of Skywalker I need to raise to -7.5dB - you would expect the first of the new trilogy to be in the same ball park as the rest.

[@kevinicus6375]

lol. I play force awakens at +5. Most titles I play at -5. And pretty much any recent Disney mix (that I've tried so far) gets a big bump. "Oh, it's Disney, add 5 to 10 db."

[@towmky]

It’s sort of like imagining buying a the new 2024 Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing. 200 MPH capable. But….now when driven on certain roads the gas pedal disappears and is controlled by people who don’t appreciate performance cars. Well at least the people in the back seat will have a comfortable ride 😜

[@Saturn2888]

This is awful if true. You can always compress, but you can't go the other way for folks that spend money on their systems at home. And people on disc are a different audience typically than folks on streaming.

[@Masterslessons]

We all been happy this whole time. Only complains are more lazy atmospheric surround usage. Laziness.

[@andyv9365]

I’m lost

[@CarlVanDoren61]

World 🌎 luxury problems 😮

[@darrenchase886]

This seems like total bs because from according to home theater gurus once you treat the room the vocals are fully clear 11:34 there are poor recordings

[@PoesAcoustics]

Not sure what you are getting at here.

[@darrenchase886]

He met the room acoustics and acoustic treatments. I noticed I could hear voices better from the center speaker after placing things in the room instead of just having bare walls. I have a very small room. Should i just go with absorption panels or diffusers

[@darrenchase886]

I don't believe in reference volume it just seems a bunch of bs to me