EP183 - How to fix the PHEV Battery Degradation Problem!

So guys, here is the full video with all explanations of what we know and have discovered so far. I tried to break it down as far as possible to make it easier to digest. Hope nobody will choke on it.
The battery degradation we see in the Outlander PHEV is not normal and especially in the new 2019 models far too high! We now have 4 vehicles in Australia having the battery replaced but still dropping SOH almost daily.
What is causing this 'degradation' and how can we fix it? It seems like Mitsubishi has got all the tools to fix that but does not know how to handle the existing procedures like smoothing and DBCAM correctly. They still apply a 10 year old procedure when it comes to battery replacement. Luckily they have the TeamPHEV and our member Gerard found out what the problem is.
Please leave all your comments and questions down below. We will try to answer as many as possible.
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Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Group (Tips, Tricks, Experiences, help and assistance):
/ outlanderphev
My Outlander PHEV Forum. Join the Discussion!
www.myoutlander...
PHEV Watchdog (battery and car monitoring system):
www.phevwatchdo...
--
Music by
MBB (Kiitos paljon!)
/ mbbofficial
and
Joakim Karud
/ joakimkarud
All music licensed under a Creative Commons Licence if not otherwise stated.
creativecommon...
creativecommon...

[@stephenlane8366]

What great work; it makes so much sense that it is primarily "just" a software problem. It is disappointing that Mitsubishi could not have discovered this themselves, but let's hope the good work gets recognised and rolled out across the rest of the world. Well done to all involved.

[@GaryReedUnfrequentedWorld]

HA....loved the intro. I'm still chuckling..more music Andy...more...I have officially sent this video to my dealer and requested that these procedures be done on my car. I will report on what they say and do. My hope is that we try this and it works on my vehicle and the cure has been found!!!

[@unpluggedEV]

Thanks Gary. I cannot help myself with bringing some sort of fun into this whole topic. The matter itself is already sad enough. That would be good if we all work together worldwide towards this common goal. The procedures are all in their manuals and workshop books, so it's not like we will be doing any damage to the vehicle. Yeah get Kyle to sign up here ;)

[@dcbour]

Gary, how did you make out with the process. Did you see them yet?

[@ralphkingsley]

Andy and Gerard you have done a lot of hard work on this subject. I hope that you are right that it is a software issue of BMU and not the battery. I will be very interested in seeing a test done on a older PHEV that has a degraded battery go through the procedure of Rest-Smoother-DBCAM without the battery being replaced.

[@phkson]

yes, it may see an increase or decrease after DBCAM or BMU because these resets just get more accuracy of the SoH battery.

[@pitiglobos]

Congratulations to everyone, a good work and resilience is the values to get success. Thanks and going on!..

[@esa4aus]

Brilliant, as a 2015 Phev owner this is great info......

[@kurtpenner2362]

BRILLIANT!!! I wonder if the reset, smoothing and DBCAM could be done at home by the owner (aka backyard mechanic). Also, I wonder if Gerard or Mitsubishi could reprogram the BMU to behave better, to eliminate the problems permanently. I am looking forward to seeing your new data after you get the fix done on your vehicle.

[@danieloskam3509]

I might be wrong, this could be the best video yet🤔👍. Interesting stuff and looks like Gerard has spent some time looking into it, thanks and if you ever get to sunny dunedin, I'll buy you a beer, you too Andy, lol

[@unpluggedEV]

Thanks Daniel, I'll let you know when I'm there!

[@Captain_Nemo-y7q]

My (built 2014, bought 2015) PHEV had a new battery installed in March and apparently had the procedure described by Andreas applied. My PHEV dog subsequently showed 40 A.h and 105.3% state of charge. As you can imagine I am really happy about this! Now for the long wait to see how the battery+BMU combination does over time. Let's hope this is the solution to the degradation problem. And last but definitely not least, thanks to Andreas and Gerard for their efforts. As an afterthought, it seems to me that this is the result of Mitsubishi failing to ensure that their BMU software functions properly, so I believe it is Mitsubishi's responsibility to do this annually as part of service but at their cost, to ensure the battery is providing the highest possible utility to the owner.

[@unpluggedEV]

Congratulations, John. That is great to hear. It makes such a difference to have the full capacity available, right? You obviously went through MMAL?

[@escamillajorge]

Hi John, how you experience has been with your PHEV? do you recommend it?

[@jimbo2629]

What an excellent video. A really good explanation after a lot of hard work by clever people. My car is 2 years old and the battery covers most of my journeys. I’m guessing that MMC will have sorted this on your advice by the time it needs to be done on my car. So far I am getting about 22 miles on the battery alone in an ex demonstrator nearly new car. There is one advantage to not fully charging lithium batteries, and that is there is less degradation when standing without use at the lower voltage. Ebike owners recommend fully charging just before use rather than leaving idle for days at full charge, to extend battery life, some claim enormously.

[@pdabin]

Wow good work Andy and Gerard. This is great news for phev owners and Mitsubishi as your videos although great, entertaining and very informative had me thinking that only those who really want a phev would still buy one as the battery problem is just to big. Mitsubishi need to make these three procedures part of a yearly service. Thanks again Andy and Gerard. Great work, great video!!

[@don.timeless4993]

Wow! Every EV manufacturer & dealership should watch this!

[@unpluggedEV]

They did!

[@darwiniandude]

This is fantastic news Andy, I can't wait to find out if this cures your car, and others of course. What's great in your case is you also have a brand spanking new battery as well as the software fix.(Love the whiteboard with the bowl of lemon batteries... how may lemons in series required to power the PHEV? :) Team PHEV's work means these cars should be a lot more viable on the used market now as well as new. I'm pretty excited.

[@darwiniandude]

🤔 I wonder if reset/cell smoothing/dbcam is also useful for other non PHEV cards eg the imported Mitsubishi Minicab EV, the i-Miev...

[@davidn747]

darwiniandude I would say quite likely.....

[@AndreasStemmann]

Wow good work Andy and Gerard! You explained this well, thank you! When I go with the order to my dealer reset/smooth/dbcam I will only see a big question mark over his head and he will refer me to the official warranty. It would be good if Mitsubishi would make for it an official procedure.

[@unpluggedEV]

Yes, haha, every dealer has got a question mark about this. Almost all of them don't know much about the car, battery and procedure. Gruesse in die alte Heimat und Danke fuers gucken ;)

[@attre3]

Start is at 1:58. Great work, I could use a little more capacity in my old battery.

[@unpluggedEV]

Start is 0:00 as always ;)

[@cornelisvanmaanen1235]

Bedankt Andy ga zo door en het probleem word ooit een keer opgelost 👍

[@marcgravel3010]

Awesome work!!!! Wow. Very very interesting. Thank-you for your time, energy, passion and effort Andy and Gerard! Reset, smoothing, DBCAM! Love it. It is surprising that Mitsubishi is not more pro-active. Their software is clunky. Just look at the remote control software......very clunky! Thank-you Team PHEV.

[@unpluggedEV]

Thanks Marc, much appreciated!

[@joelambert-beauregard4285]

the remote app is a joke haha. it's so slow I can walk to the car and back before I can set up the heater on the app, and the range is so short that I physically have to stand against the outer wall and towards the vehicle for it to work...

[@numajaria1]

Thanks Andy and Gerard

[@pk_5710]

Thank you for the great Information, greetings from Germany/Ansbach.

[@unpluggedEV]

Thanks for watching!

[@tressteleg1]

I have for many months suspected that most of the ‘battery problems’ are in fact caused by crazy conservative programming in the BMU. This video largely confirms this. My 4 1/2 year old PHEV can still manage a bit over 40 km per charge but most days of the week it is in the garage. I really wonder just how well this resetting process would work on an older battery which I suspect is much less degraded than it appears on the surface. Richard, Gold Coast

[@eugenfrostman674]

Danke dir Andy und natürlich Gerard das ihr eure Zeit investiert habt eine Lösung für dieses große Problem zu finden und falls es dir nichts aus macht, könntest du einige der Videos vielleicht auf Deutsch aufnehmen😂 wäre noch besser! Schöne Grüße aus Deutschland ✌

[@mafarmerga]

Trying to understand these terms. Is BMU = Battery Management Unit? What is DBCAM ?

[@nathancampbell82]

Well done Andy. You've nailed it mate.

[@NikoAbston]

2018 checking in. Have 40k miles and this is very informative. My consumption seems so varied lately. Where as I've seen great battery performance, I've also seen terrible.

[@MrJCTECH]

how many miles on phev?

[@NikoAbston]

@@MrJCTECH I put 100k on that one and traded for a 22 ev6. The battery didn’t seem to degrade even at the end, but weight, outside temperature (cold) and speed definitely impact the mi/kwh effectiveness.

[@markotrieste]

It makes sense. This would also explain the slow improvement some people see with deep discharging; it writes better data in the bottom registers. It looks to me like the lost Ah are at the bottom of the capacity, i.e. the BMU artificially increases the floor, what is originally 30% becomes more. That's why end of charge is always 4.1V. Now it would be nice to understand what causes this cumulative error. Looking forward for news about your battery "treatment".

[@unpluggedEV]

That could be the case actually. The bottom voltage varies a lot when the engine kicks in so there is no real threshold to trigger the generator at the bottom.

[@andrzejp8782]

@@unpluggedEV the bottom voltage is quite stable if you drive slowly the last few miles. If you are on the highway - yes the IEC jumps in earlier. Also as soon as generator kick in your voltage goes up , so it's hard to observe exact number. I did find the true bottom on mine by turning on heat remotely and observing the WatchDog while car is parked.

[@unpluggedEV]

Yep, when you idle the car with the heater on, the voltage should be the same every time.

[@davidn747]

Great video, great work Andy! 👍

[@MichaelArthur4eva]

2017 owner, in NZ. Definitely keen to know how to approach my dealership about this, though I think they don't even know what battery smoothing is lol. Am recording and sharing my data in phev watchdog and submitting to the nz guys who got Nissan to fix the leaf battery issues.

[@MichaelArthur4eva]

Can you list the process to reset the BMU correctly so people can send to dealerships to get them to reset it correctly.

[@unpluggedEV]

@@MichaelArthur4eva reset-smooth-DBCAM. That is what they did to the vehicles over here. All this is in the Mitsubishi workshop manual but just not the correct order and what it actually does. We're still awaiting an official response from Mitsubishi in regards to the procedures and if this is the supported fix.

[@davidn5056]

Great stuff! Well done Andy!

[@singularity70]

I love your videos, you do brilliant work! And to be honest, #Mitsubishi should give you a Free #Outlander with testing tools for all Your Hard work and effort !! Peeps..Vote for unpluggedEV for a new and free #Mitsubishi #Outlander #PHEV.

[@singularity70]

@@unpluggedEV Your work is important for ALL #PHEV owners. Thank You. Dear #Mitsubishi, get off from the high horse, put on your big boys pants and address the #PHEV problems, please, as an adult.

[@andremcamara3120]

Awesome video Andy. Thank you for your continued work on this Battery Software issue. Big thanks also to Gerard.

[@unpluggedEV]

Thanks Andre, I hope Mitsubishi is jumping on board now and does more testing for this fix. We yet need to wait for a used car to be treated...

[@airestocky]

btw. if your wife ever asks you „why are you in your garage again and talking with those little cameras??“ or „why the hell are you having Lunch Break in your car and again talking with a little camera“, just tell her - we love to see it and it helps a lot to make things happen and/or better :-) thanks again, also to your wife for her support! :-) :-)

[@unpluggedEV]

She started asking questions when I left my shirt in the house and disappeared with the cams :D I just tell her, 'yep, more car-porn!'

[@rossac9221]

@@unpluggedEV Thank you Andy for the research. My 2014 p h e v just turned 5 years old just had my 75 k service a few weeks before end of car warranty, battery condition 70% and 26.6 amp hour 6.9kw charge, what level does it need to be to qualify for warranty repairs battery replacement ect I sent an email to Mitsubishi Australia but got referred back to my dealer which I'm waiting for reply. Regards Ross

[@unpluggedEV]

@Ross Collyer the vehicle should have 5yrs warranty and the battery warranty is for 10yrs with 80% threshold as per the statement on their website. Show them the statement and a printout of the Dog current state. If they refuse to do something send an email to MMAL and mention TeamPHEV ;)

[@rossac9221]

@@unpluggedEV thanks for that I found the early Mitsubishi statement on your KZbin archives and I'm booked in for next Tuesday with a courtesy car for them to do their battery tests it's such a relief to know where I stand now with the battery warranty and basic battery knowledge. I have you to thank you for that I would not have twigged probably otherwise as I bought the car second-hand 9 mths ago so just took the degradation as normal!! Many thanks. The Aspire model is a great car , it would be good if the engine didn't cut in until the accelerator pedal was on the floor.

[@Edifred2007]

Also. O one in the UK has ever had a battery replaced. When I said they certainly had in Australia they were shocked.

[@pitiglobos]

Andy other question could you explain how connect the watchdog with wifi when the car is charging? , indicates to you my model is motion from 2014.Thanks

[@nicholaspalmer2220]

I just used Watchdog on my 2015 PHEV (56,000 miles) and it reports 72% health but previously I was getting, from a full charge, a true 22 miles driving, from a range estimated on the display of 24 miles but the last few weeks it has dropped down to about 13.5 real miles (gently rolling terrain - no big hills) and with a displayed range of 16. All the cells/modules look OK on Watchdog but the most annoying thing is that it seems less powerful on pure electricity than before. Also the combustion engine kicks in far more often, even with a 'full battery', if I go up a gentle slope I had no trouble accelerating up as a pure EV before. Is this yet another BMU issue or have I genuinely got a duff battery which has suddenly degraded?

[@bjejoh]

As of march 2020 there is an upgrade of the software available from Mitsubishi and a new procedure for the dealers to fix the battery issue. My 2019 model with 40800 km went from 34,3 Ah to 40,5 Ah after the new procedure.

[@unpluggedEV]

Only for 2019 models onwards afaik. And it does last for only a year, I read? Then again, is 40.5Ah the correct value of the battery for a 2 year old vehicle or just to satisfy a customer?

[@michalmakowski5249]

Hi I have eclipse cross from 2022 and I have problems with battery . In full battery shows me only 28 km . It’s normal?

[@michelmeindre5215]

Hi all, that's some amazingly good video and contents. I'm thinking about buying either a 2019 or 2020 PHEV and was just wondering if Mitsubishi has improved its battery management software in this latter version?

[@rogerstarkey5390]

Andy, Is there an easy way for the dealer or an owner who has the right equipment to identify this?

[@JB1978]

I'm going to quote you now to my dealer :]

[@unpluggedEV]

Send them the link and make them subscribe! 🤗 It will be interesting to see when everyone is now approaching their dealers with a similar request.

[@francojapalucci140]

Hi Andy Wahnsinn was du da alles bewegst um dieses Problem zu lösen. Hut ab... Und das ganze noch mit Humor.:-) echt klasse. Ich hätte da mal die Frage aller Fragen: Wo bekomm ich den richtigen OBD Stecker für die App? ist es tatsächlich diese PHEV BOX von V-Tech..?? Liebe Grüße aus Deutschland

[@airestocky]

very interesting - I know the Managing Directory of my local Mitsubishi Dealer here in Munich / Germany very well and will ask him to „connect“ me with his „Mr PHEV“ service guy to start a discussion about that. Our PHEV is scheduled for delivery end of March / early April.

[@unpluggedEV]

That's good, start the conversation early. Sometimes you're lucky and find someone in the dealership who is passionate about the PHEV and make things work.

[@klausmoll323]

Dear Klaus, I am in a similar situation and will get my PHEV MY 2020 in the next weeks. I am really looking forward to this car (even if I owned Audi and Mercedes before), but I do not want to have deepgoing trouble - I simply want to drive as ecological and economical as possible. Currently I hope that with the MY 2020 the problems are solved, but I am afraid that this is wishful thinking. Did you get any response from your contacts? Btw for further information and experience exchange: I am located close to Munich in Ingolstadt.

[@ShervinEmami]

Excellent video, thanks for your work

[@dk6420-v1w]

Is this information about BMU universal to PHEVs or is it Mitsubishi specific?

[@DanielBlomqvist]

Thank you for all your work. I have 2015 that is now down to about 25 km range. Service appointment in a couple of weeks. Will try to make them do the "cure". The best solutions would be if Mitsubishi could improve the BMU with a firmware update. An interim solution would be that they perform the "cure" at the annual service (or perhaps bi-annually).

[@mafarmerga]

Did having them clear the BMU and reset the DBCAM work?

[@limey8489]

Nice work everyone! So, is the current thought for 2019 owners that we should insist on reset/smooth/dbcam on our new vehicles to make sure BMU is set correctly? Will Mitsubishi support that? I’m A UK owner so would be interesting to have that conversation 😅

[@unpluggedEV]

Absolutely, it took us over a year to get heard by Mitsubishi. They won't support it (yet) as they still believe what they are doing is correct. They follow the procedure in place. So far, I have not seen a 2019 model which is 'good'. They are all plummeting... If you have a 2019 model, start the conversation with your dealer better sooner than later. The more people coming forward the better, get organised to streamline your common interest.

[@GregShaw]

I’m another UK 2019 model owner and my battery is dropping fast too over 2% after 2000 miles of driving

[@arthur178]

They never sorted mine out after repeated attempts to get them to even look at it properly so got rid of the car and lost all faith in Mitsubishi (uk) only getting 15 miles range and all I got told was no fault found

[@kho786]

I am a 2018 owner getting less than 18 miles only 6553 miles on the car. the response I got today was from the dealer via a PHEV tech line they called that since they showed no Dtc codes they said the battery is fine/normal. They told me since I drive my car short distance stop and go at low speeds of less than 45 mph that's why I am. Not getting optimal ev mileage. Btw this is what a tech on the phone who knows and owns PHEV is explaining to my dealer. The dealer may pay to do the work in the order I request to make me happy only if they get an ok from Mitsubishi tech line stating it will not void the battery warranty. I am in Dallas, TX USA. Lastly Mitsubishi tech line consulted my dealership requesting they charge the battery for 3 hours than drive it above 45-60 mph and this test concluded the car is "normal".

[@unpluggedEV]

@kho786 Thanks for sharing. It should not make a difference how you drive the car. If you only drive a few miles each day, that's fine and the car is designed for exactly this. Your dealer is wrong as so many others. They got no idea about the car, battery and software and telling the owners anything. I could make a 2h+ video about all the stories I heard from dealers. A huge lack of knowledge and certainty.

[@andrewparker6977]

Andy Great video, Thank you. We drive a 2014 PHEV. Charging KM went from 37 km to 27 Km in 3 years charging at home every night and driven around town in the day. If we take it for an out of town run the next charge jumps up to as much as 47 Km. Does this mean there is a problem with charging or the charger.?

[@thusithaudugama917]

I'm down to 64.7% SOH at 41000km on a 2014 model. Will check with the agent if they can do this here.

[@Excellent2009able]

great videos but I have to watch them super fast as there a bit long!

[@user-mn8bj6zo7c]

Hallo I have a outlander from 2013 and I did the reset just like in your videos the range got from 12 km to 54km I drove the car for 1 day and now the car doesn’t work and get all lot of failure on the battery cells do you maybe know what I can does 😅

[@andreverville9492]

Hi Andy, I am not surprised at all. I told you a few weeks ago my gutfeeling was exactly that: BMU magic algorithm just wrong, because of faulty asumptions. Now, let's try to bring Mitsubishi to push their BMU unit programmers to revise their code, finally bringing true values of real battery state instead of this nonsense.

[@lriva8076]

hello ,thanks for your video,if i right understood, first i must to reset battery, how it make? disconnect 12v battery when high voltage connector is charging a car? or click the reset bmu info bottom in MUT III app? and then i need to make dbcam operation ? thank you wor your work,best regards

[@greenmen2009]

Hi guys, do we have some statistics on this procedure? Did it help to many Outlander or?

[@jirimothejzik2509]

Hello, this is really good work, thank you for that. I have a question - is this still the case of official Mitsubishi procedures, or was it updated? I will get a warranty replacement in a couple of weeks, so I wonder how much should I be pushing them to follow your steps (reset>smoothing>dbcam) or if they will know (or know better), considering your video is 3,5 years old. Thank you!

[@xboxice2005]

Good work,are dealership now Fallowing this process?

[@Johnbro8]

Thanks for sharing your advice

[@PlanetCypher_]

I'm going to wait for Andy to get the procedure done before declaring sucses, of course this would mean Mitsubishi have poor battery management.

[@unpluggedEV]

The BMS is definitely to blame for all this and it should not happen. Probably we are looking at an 10+ years old system which has never been tested or improved much since...

[@PlanetCypher_]

@@unpluggedEV I have my fingers crossed for you Andy, I bet you can't wait to get your car done too. I know I'm excited to see your results.

[@Dr.Davidov]

Dear Andy: what are the results of the "Post Mortem" of your old battery? This could confirm your findings, if your old battery is not really less than 26 AH, but much higher...

[@markwalkington416]

Yes this will be very interesting to find out .... I have a 69% SoH which has been used considerably more than most batteries as 80% EV charged running over 120k kms ...so I'm guessing my SoH estimate may be more accurate ..we will see as I will pursue this when the smoke clears

[@unpluggedEV]

The battery went back to Japan and I doubt we will ever hear anything back from them...

[@Dr.Davidov]

@@unpluggedEV Sheeeiieet....

[@oboelegno5575]

I doubt, that this is the real cause for the degradation oft the battery. It might correct the calculation of the SOH, but i can not see how this affects the charging process. As Andy explained, the charging process ends when the Voltage reaches 4.1 V, and this seems to be independent of the SOH of the battery. The SOC reflects this in showing more than 100%. Btw. Andys last Videos of the driving range with the new and the old battery shows that the range is much larger with the new battery. If your theorie is correct, the SOH must influence the charging process. Otherwise the battery has really degraded and this can not be prevented with this cure.

[@unpluggedEV]

Thanks for your comment. From what we see, the SOH is narrowing down the window between upper and lower threshold which in fact makes the usable capacity smaller hence the reduced range. If you're right and we're dealing with true degradation then the car is totally doomed and useless.

[@andrzejp8782]

I totally agree - I think the reported SOH is just an artificial number that is not used for anything by the Mitsubishi. The BMU is probably designed and produced by some 3rd party vendor . I confirmed on my car that both the bottom and upper voltage stays the same over time . Also the amount of power that my car is taking is much larger than SOH shown on the Watchdog.

[@Edifred2007]

I took my car in last week to discuss. They were very surprised at my dealer and said in the UK there is only one dealer in the country that can replace batteries as they require £40000 worth of equipment. Nor can they reset the BMU. The only thing they can do is read data and send it to Mitsubishi but no idea whether it is worth it. If my dealer cannot even do anything with the BMU then not sure where this will go if anywhere. I’m utterly convinced that the software is at fault as you describe but I have a defensive dealer.

[@unpluggedEV]

Well, they lied to you. Mitsubishi Motors Australia have confirmed that there are no special tools needed and the battery replacement can be conducted by any dealership (if they have the high voltage training). The reset is been done by the MUT III device which again, every dealership has. This is a standard diagnostic tool for all Mitsubishi cars and trucks (not specifically to the PHEV).

[@Edifred2007]

unplugged EV Thanks Andy. Will be interesting to see what they do.

[@KieNjiru]

I'm having a problem with my battery. P1A38, P1A39 after replacing two modules. Originally the only DTC was P0A80. I bought two modules which were low on charge (29v and 31v) while the remaining eight in the car were at 39v. Two days after installation all ten are at 34v but car won't start, won't charge and DTCs are P1A38 and P1A39. How do I deal with this issue?

[@matradlinski8084]

Andy, as always thanks to you and the whole Team PHEV for your hard work! Does it make sense do have the dealer do this procedure on the 2018 model? I don’t know the true SOH of my battery since I don’t have the Dog. I guess I am trying to picture how this procedure would improve the 2018 battery long(er) term, considering Gary is down ~10% in less than a year. Unless you think the BMU was incorrectly programmed/calibrated from the beginning (like in the case of the 2019 models you mentioned).

[@unpluggedEV]

Mat, why not wait until you 'see' some degradation in terms of the car taking less energy while charging or your EV range dropping. Don't worry too much about all that, I think that was the decision not to get the Dog in the first place, right? ;) We have to see what Mitsubishi will do in this matter and officially update their procedure.

[@Gadgit83]

Does anyone know what the DBCAM messages are? I have a PHEV battery and BMU which I am putting in an EV conversion, and would like to be able to manually reset it and read diagnostic information from it. Thanks!

[@Ukdashcam786]

Hi i will appreciate if you answer I got 2016 uk model on full charge show 9 miles when drive gives around 17 miles I just bought the car for uber use you think battery will last another 30 k miles before i put in taxi . I vant find anyone here who knows about these cars thanks

[@sendtobarry]

Exactly what I said I was going to get done next service !!! From episode 172 I have looked after my battery. Always just top it up, no deep discharges etc. I'm thinking next service to ask for another BMU reset dbcam and cell smoothing as part of the service. Will be roughly at 88% 16 months after the last BMU reset. Which is what it was then. I'm thinking the software will keep the battery from self destructing. Also the actual real condition of the battery is not that bad. If they do it it will be another year of great EV range driving. Hmmmmm we will see.

[@unpluggedEV]

Watch that order, Barry! Do we have to pay for the Mitsubishi f**k-up?

[@myvideotablemyvideotable528]

If I just want to keep running the car on petrol engine, is it possible. Or eventually it will need new battery after 10/15 years.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

Not wishing to be smug, but I think I called it!

[@RS-bz1ij]

Hi, I am new within "Outlander PHEV family" I can see you have my favourite 2014 model (based on rear lights). What are chances that I will be facing issues with battery? And at what level? I heard about issues when the health state battery level drops to 50% the PHEV start behaving strangely. What is your experience? Thank you very much!

[@ramontx0]

Thanks Andy for your perserverance. I own a 2016 with 80.000 km, every month / 1200km SOH is droping 0.1 Ah . No matter what I do when charging discharging the batt so it looks like the bad software problem is confirmed. Just a question: What do you thing about the cases of SOH going up to 100% following the procedures writen in the UK PHEV forum? (discharge completely, let stabilize, charge completely,...)

[@auvidman1]

I have a 2014 phev and would be very interested in trying this procedure. I am located in Brisbane and am wondering what dealer you have been dealing with as they may be the best option for me to proceed forward as they already have an understanding of the issues. Thanks Jeremy

[@Cletric]

Hello , great Videos thanks for making and sharing ( your cat is funny ! ) . Do you have any idea if the new cars the modell 2020 have the same problems ? I am on the way to buy one in the next weeks . Greetings from germany Markus

[@simonekstrand9353]

I am in the market for a second hand car and have bought at odb2+watchdog. If what Andy assumes is correct, how important is the SoH in the Dog in different cars when the BMU is messed up anyway? Of cours 70% vs 90% is a easy pic but what if two cars is at 90 & 85%? You cant realy tell whitch is the winner.

[@unpluggedEV]

With any used car it's hard to estimate the quality of the vehicle just by doing a quick test ride and inspection. The SOH in the Dog gives you an indication but certainly not the full picture. If the car has not been used and charged a lot in is previous life the battery might be far better than the Dog assumes. Or it could be the opposite if the car has been charged daily from day one...

[@facundorutherford9114]

Great work

[@alvarezhulio]

I also suspect that with lithium batteries it will be necessary to be at the optimum temperature to get the true capacity of the battery.

[@chriscadag8016]

I'm receiving my new phev in a week time, how do I get this fix to ensure it's applied before I take my car out of the dealership?

[@unpluggedEV]

If you're not in Australia, it will be difficult. I don't think Mitsubishi does believe this problem exists. Usually customers don't have this inside information (the Dog). Find other owners and get organised, make Mitsubishi aware that there is a problem.

[@chriscadag8016]

@@unpluggedEV I live in Auckland, NZ.. just across the ditch from you. I will discuss this with my dealer tmrw and see how I go. I intend to create a KZbin channel to share my experience with the new Outlander PHEV.

[@markwalkington416]

@@chriscadag8016 hi Christopher ..Wellington ..69% SoH ..NZ new ..just been sitting the last 6 months after previously pounding head on MMNZ brickwall ...they said we don't recognise 3rd party app data and don't respond to "what is going round in the ether" ...but do add to the pressure ...also we have this group facebook.com/groups/1894733483895959/?ref=share

[@chriscadag8016]

@@markwalkington416 thanks mate. I'm going to join the group.

[@thusithaudugama917]

For new battery replacements, can't they just do reset, cell smoothing and directly write 40 on top register?

[@unpluggedEV]

Yes, that's they are doing right now with the following cars, they get a new battery and the triple procedure.

[@KT-en8pq]

Does anyone know if the 2021 model has improved or solved the issues with the earlier models? Thank you

[@ThinkscapeVideo]

Thanks for the research. When are you getting yours reset+smoothed+dbcamed again Andy?

[@unpluggedEV]

Soon, I hope. Mitsubishi Australia has to book me in at the dealership again for a few days and give me a loaner for the time...

[@ThinkscapeVideo]

unplugged EV have you guys already contacted Mitsubishi with your findings, to ask for confirmation/correction from their side? I suspect that if this is actually a "known practice" for the designers of the BMU/drive train at Mitsubishi, then the official, underlying reason why so many customers are having sub-par experience with their vehicles is simply the under-education of the dealerships' staff... The good news is, if they confirm it, that this problem is easily solvable for everyone...

[@unpluggedEV]

@@ThinkscapeVideo Well, one of our cars was down at their head quarter for troubleshooting and they applied just these procedure in this order as previously done with the first car down here. So I guess, they are analysing now and hopeful advise the dealerships. We are also going to urge them to do a used car without swapping the actual battery to see if that works too.

[@richij]

@@unpluggedEV yeah I desperately want to see the results from an Australian "degraded" battery

[@thomasgruter5116]

Man muss sich vorstellen, und das ist nicht nur bei Mitsubishi, da sitzen hochbezahlte Ingenieure, oder sie nennen sich zumindest so, und bekommen ihre eigene Technik nicht in den Griff. Mir hat es jedenfalls sehr geholfen, was ich der Werkstatt sagen muss. Die haben hier in Dänemark auch keinen Plan. Hab mich schon gewundert über diese dumme Geschwätz, das die Batterie und das Laden sich meiner Fahrweise anpasst, der größte Schwachsinn, den ich je Gehört habe. Danke für die vielen Videos und die immer nützlichen Infos.

[@itsme3072]

Yesterday I bought the outlander PHEV , after getting the guarantee, that Mitsubishi is doing to reset the battery once a year. I showed my German Mitsubishi dealer your video and he did guarantee the 80% battery loading. Are you sure you only have the battery control system only for Android mobiles?

[@homesteadandvideo]

Ive got an Mitsubishi imiev who got a fault code present P1A44 (bmu leakage detected ) How to fix that ? Is it an electrick leak or what does this realy mean ? Anyone knows .. ?

[@allthetech]

I only see you referencing the AH number in Watchdog, but is there a measurable difference in the amount of KWH that goes into the battery? This seems to be the only number that really matters. A battery that holds more KWHs can go further. Has there been any measurable difference in how much the battery holds before/after your procedure and if so, for how long after?

[@manoahvanderwolf3259]

So i'm planning on buying a outlander PHEV, preferably the 2015 one (with the new nose so to speak). Assuming it's going to be bone-stock, and being interested and educated after this video, what do i need to do to prevent/fix this battery degredation? Do i need tools, do i need to buy something? Additional question, i've been reading about a full EV mode button, which i'd also like to buy and install. Would this button cause havoc with the above soluton, or does the button destroy the batteries? and finally, does this actually work for any PHEV (lets concider 2015 MY), or do you need to replace the batteries anyway?

[@AlexAlex-om4yf]

Cost change battery ? Tnx

[@TH-mk9qb]

Hi Andy, would it be possible to develop an ODB2 tool for the PHEV in order to carry out your own BMU reset followed by a DB Cam? ODB2 Fault Codes Reader Reset Diagnostic Scanner Tool can currently scan, reset and clear faults on other vehicles, it would be great to develop a tool for the PHEV BMU. What if the creator of the PHEV BOX made a BMU tool. Cheers

[@unpluggedEV]

There is kind of an app which actually runs the MUT III software on a mobile phone. I has also the Outlander PHEV in the list but I have yet to confirm with the distributor here in Australia if it can handle any of the BMU procedures. From what one of my viewers wrote me, it handles other cars and he was able to modify the software through it so it closes all windows when the car is been looked and honks for a split second. Thinks like that.

[@andrzejp8782]

The brilliant solution would be to ask Daniel Santos (Watchdog developer) to not use SOH from BMU , but rather the maximum power that battery can take during the charging - this would solve many problems that people have. Also if you are using LiIon batteries without the BMU - charging and discharging the battery is the only procedure that can tell you the true SOH - it's the amount of power the battery can take.

[@unpluggedEV]

ask him: facebook.com/groups/phev.watchdog

[@BELHORIZON31]

I am looking to buy this 2.4 mivec engine mitsubishi , i need your advice

[@Defiantsynthetics]

is there a filter for the battery fan?

[@richardhill3976]

i will try this with Mitsubishi uk , thanks so much

[@michadutkiewicz7759]

do you did my friend?

[@zecretw7272]

Hi Andy, greate video as always. A question. How do we read out the "reference" values from the BMU? It shoud read 0 on all cars or your assumptions are false. Also, you did a reset on your old battery in ep.4 and it behaved as new. Without a reference value, how did it go to 38Ah (no degradadtion). I can have my dealer do anything to my car as long as I pay him for the time. What is the exact procedure to do this? I'm "only" down to 88% but would still like to test this. (Only for sience ofcource)

[@unpluggedEV]

We always assumed the SOH goes back to 100% after a reset but the register is just empty apparently, so the learned data has no reference and the BMU does not know if that is good or bad. I didn't do a reset, that was the dealer back in 2017. Yes, it brought the SOH back to 38Ah with a steep decline afterwards from which we thought the BMU re-learns again (which is not the case). The procedures are (in this particular order): BMU reset, Cell Smoothing Procedure and lastly a DBCAM.

[@MrTytalus]

I’m sure my local dealer here in Colchester UK will do anything from their charged for services, but I think if we can get a solution (be it this procedure or otherwise) standard as part of a standard annual or 2 year service, these cars will hopefully last 15 years on only one battery, like the Prius. Great work, would be really interested in seeing what happens with yours when they carry out this procedure. Also, how long does a DBCAM take?

[@heardd90]

I'm from Colchester to haha have a 16 plate phev Colchester misubishi are rubbish had a lot of problems with parking sensors etc David

[@andrzejp8782]

I'm not sure if the car is using the SOH information for anything. My car is always charging up to 105 - 106 % (it's a 2018) , your car after battery change is charging also to 105%. I'm thinking that that SOH from BMU is not used for anything, otherwise the car would change only to 100% SOH.

[@unpluggedEV]

My old battery used to charge to the same high SOC right after charging stopped. Both new and old battery are coming down to just under 100%SOC after 1+h . If the SOH is missing (like after a reset/wipe) the BMU is in free fall regardless if the battery is old or new.

[@andrzejp8782]

@@unpluggedEV but I'm recording how much power the battery takes , and mine shows SOH at 88% - just after 23,000km , but it takes about 10kWh of power - same as a year ago with 100% SOH .

[@andrzejp8782]

@@unpluggedEV my point is that we have no clue what the car is doing (if anything) with the SOH info from BMU .

[@andrzejp8782]

@@unpluggedEV if the battery is charged to 4.1V every time and discharged to 3.78V then the full capacity is used to drive the car . It doesn't matter what SOH is shown on the Dog . Your old battery was just bad and your new battery is new - that's why you see the range improvement . You can forget what SOH you see on the watchdog . My point is that the battery is degrading much faster than it should in some cases, but not as fast as the BMU reports to WatchDog . The car's charging system just don't care what is reported - it just measure the voltage - at least that's my theory. And that's why Mitsubishi don't do anything with this "issue".

[@unpluggedEV]

Well, if this is true what you're saying, then the car is not usable and cannot be recommended. What we see with all the new 2019 models is totally stupid and wrong. No other BEV shows such a degradation. I'm just glad we have the 10 year warranty on the battery now. If it really degrades that fast, I'll get the next one in 2 years time. But, to be honest, I don't think it's the battery. When they did the reset end of 2017 with the old battery I had the full range back too without dipping into the bottom or top reserve. As you said the charge always stops at around 4.1V and the engine kicks in at around 3.7V Just the available capacity in between may change and hence the EV range. As we have seen with the old battery after a reset this is not hardware related though. It's all a big guess what we're discussing here, right? I like it :D

[@digital-experiance2390]

I am thinking about buying one 2015/2016 Outlander used here in germany. Now I am wondering, what I should check. From my understanding the bmu reads the voltage and turns of when one cell goes undervoltage. So resetting the stats and history does not revive the bad cell? And if one cell goes again in undervoltage the bms again learns the actual capazity of the pack. In one video you said the voltage of the cells is fine. What is the cut off voltage of the cells. Does anybody know?

[@unpluggedEV]

Cut-off voltage is always 4.1V, regardless SOH. There is no under-voltage as such, the BMU uses Coulomb count to determine the SOC and SOH

[@klausmadsen3639]

Hi, I haven't bought my car yet but are very interested in the PHEV, but after seeing this I'm not so sure anymore. Those problems shown in the video is that so bad so people should not buy this car? Thanks for your very informative videos.

[@unpluggedEV]

Thanks Klaus. Check the battery warranty in your country for the PHEV and also if it includes degradation. Then you have to decide if you can live with this warranty or if you expect more from the car. The PHEV is a great car and the technology is flawless except of this battery/software problem. Some don't worry about it, for some others it's a major problem.

[@BELHORIZON31]

What about for model after 2019?

[@dymondkilla4946]

Great info. however, how do I explain this to my dealer? Take the car in and tell them to 1) do battery smoothing. 2) reset BMU 3) make sure to manually input correct values into the BMU. ? Tell them these three things?

[@unpluggedEV]

It is up to Mitsubishi now to get this theory tested on a used battery. They have already upgraded two vehicles with these procedures and they seem to work fine. Time will tell though...

[@TrevorFraserAU]

Nice!

[@yogajedi3337]

Perhaps the software, at start, should check the reference value and in case send an Error Code " reference value missing, NULL,". And some more coding with reasonable value checks.

[@robertgregory8964]

Why don't you just run down the HV battery, fit a watt-hour meter to your wall socket and then do a full charge? Do this once a month to record what the battery will accept. When a well depleted battery is charged, a sensible BMS will rebalance in the process and your recorded watt-hour meter data should reflect true state of health after allowing for cold and hot weather capacity variation. My 2013, 80,000 km Prius PHV capacity still exceeds manufacturer's new specification and it is only a crude air cooled NMC battery that is charged every day because of its small size.

[@richij]

edit: For whatever reason, there are two different orthodoxies within the greater Mitsubishi family. Contrary to what I said earlier, there *is* actually documentation describing MUT3 reset-wrangling after a pack swap. In reading it, I think I can guess what's gone wrong here. More later, once I've digested it. previously: All very interesting and to be expected (aside from the 40Ah angle), BUT-yes it's a big but-the correct Mitsubishi procedure for replacing a battery is NOT to do a BMU Reset. I've had this confirmed now by two different MMTs. So your Mitsubishi people were doing it wrong in the first place! All they were supposed to do is replace the battery-that's it.

[@unpluggedEV]

Link?

[@richij]

​@@unpluggedEV as I said to Jakub, the documentation isn't published. It's not even a procedure envisioned in the leaked workshop manual. It's entirely possible that "my" MMTs are wrong and yours are right, but they've exchanged batteries using their method without the problems your dealers seem to be causing. What conclusion would you draw?

[@richij]

The plot thickens: For whatever reason, there are two different orthodoxies within the greater Mitsubishi family. Contrary to what I said earlier, there *is* actually documentation describing MUT3 reset-wrangling after a pack swap. In reading it, I think I can guess what's gone wrong here. More later, once I've digested it.

[@richij]

So the procedure *is* in the workshop manual. I was wrong about that. And, surprise, surprise, it seems to be badly worded. There's a reset for the capacity estimate and a separate reset for the "control information." I can see how it would be easy to miss one of these steps. Is this what the dealers did wrong? Did they skip a step? There's a bulletin that supercedes it, MSB-14EXML00_54-001. The new wording makes the two-step process clearer, and now refers to the entire procedure as "initialize" (rather than reset).

[@unpluggedEV]

We don't know exactly what they did, it says a BMU reset. I need to ask Mitsubishi Australia again to clarify that if they have reset both values or just one. I think we are not there yet and more research and testing needs to be done. As long as MMAL is willing to support and test all these theories, we're good ;) Thanks for your info!

[@arnyswart]

I had my car serviced last month. I asked for the triple procedure even though it is the original battery. I dropped the car in the day before and got it back without any change in range. I’m not sure they even did it. If it is software related could we have an app to do it and we could do it ourselves? I’d be happy to pay a few hundred dollars to do it when I want to.

[@unpluggedEV]

As we now see, the triple is not the solution either and won't last long. The whole concept seems to be not working. If this is real battery degradation we see her in these cars, it's a dying machine...

[@rogerstarkey5390]

May I suggest you ask Mitsubishi to add a line if code to initiate these procedures in order with a *single* instruction. As I've said previously, I've seen very similar issues with photocopiers and techs *will* get the procedure wrong(!) especially if they don't do it routinely. If they have an instruction to select a single mode, let's call it "initiation", at the factory and in the service environment, with *very* clear circumstances, it should ensure a long term fix. If just left to them at any time, they will go into "I don't know, I'll try this" mode without understanding (trust me! I've followed colleagues that have done similar many times!)