Update Video. MFT Table Build Using the Parf Guide System MK2.

[@Stewart_Bell]

It's easy to open the box, get over excited , and just jump in with the Parf Guide - done it myself - and replicate the error you experienced John. However Peter's comment on your previous video, which is per the instructions, to start in the centre and triangulate outwards, will render astonishingly accurate results, and certainly mean that no errors should be experienced on something as small as an 8x4 sheet. I acknowledge what some have said regarding the theory of the Parf Stick being raised slightly when triangulating, but in practice this proved negligible for me. The only steer inwould iffer here us to ensure the sheet is dead flat (which is why an accurately made torsion box is such a good idea). Prior to owning the Parf Guide I bought a cnc'd top. Have since made many tops and accessories and everything I've made with the guide aligns perfectly with the cnc version. Connecting dogs can be used with confidence. It's a great system in my view and has revolutionised the way i work and what i am able to acheive. Repeatable accuracy and speed 😎🤙

[@indophile108]

When one ruler sits on top of the other, you are not measuring in the same plane... That's what adds tiny error which then gets compounded. Yes, Peter's method will alleviate that compounding.

[@robmanning4763]

So glad you did this video, I had exactly the same problem, But I followed the manual to the tee, (I always read manuals/instructions as I hate doing things twice). I fixed the problem the same way you did, BUT, this problem screwed with my head for some time as my parf guides are identical. After having thought about it, I believe its the overlap of the guides. nothing else makes any sense. And if the Pythagoras of the parf guides is correct it shouldn't matter if you work from 1 edge of 3mm holes or as you did go around. anyway that's my take on it

[@rodv7779]

Great video John, you seem like an honest man, and I am glad to see this video. I was concerned that the first video could do damage to the UK Parf System's reputation and discourage users from buying it. In this video, you did a fantastic job explaining what went wrong and how to prevent it from happening to others. Directions have to be read sometimes, and we are all guilty of making mistakes by not doing so. We live, and we learn! I have the first and second versions of Peter's Parf Guide system, which has served me well. Flawless, to be precise. My main shop table is 96" L and 42" W, which I built using the Ron Paulk style of Torsion Box and UK Parf Guide system for the top. I have built many other devices where I use the UK Parf system to add additional shop capabilities for clamping, assembly, etc. Simply it is just a great system. Professional or hobbyist, this device will pay for itself and then some overtime. Like others have stated here: Plan for the future and build a replaceable strip in your table to change your Rip and Crosscut lines in your tabletop. Works great and further adds value for accuracy and investment in your shop. Cheers mate!

[@ianwatson9032]

Great update John, great bloke Peter is, he has helped and answered a few questions I had also very quickly. It’s good to talk to guys with the same passion for woodwork and are happy to help. 👍🏼. Can’t wait until the next video in the table build.

[@MrJinga27]

Fair play to you for owning your error John and putting this out there. I guess it is a failing of all of us men that we NEVER read instructions...lol

[@JimmeShelter]

That woman came with an instruction manual?

[@bryandowdey1779]

You're clearly a perfectionist John. Thanks for the update.

[@bendemjohnny]

you will find your bench a pleasure to work on. I have the same wheels you mentioned on my bench, they are brilliant, I drilled them to attach a step bar between two castors each end of my bench. Just step on the bar to engage, avoids strain on a single castor and provides a handle to lift up to lower your bench.

[@akairborne]

I was wondering how to put heavy casters on my bench and saw, didn't think of this. Thanks!

[@bendemjohnny]

@@akairborne -👍👍 I got mine off EBay (about £50) but Axminster do them, the bar makes an amazing difference.

[@myfaceback100]

what i did to protect the top when cutting was attach a few short bits of 20mm dowel to some 6mm mdf strips so when I am cutting the piece is off the table top they are also handy as long bench stops when you want to line up pieces or plane them. plus they are cheep and if you hit it with the saw you don't damage your blade

[@brynwork8096]

I also had issues my first set of rulers, the holes did not match up. However axminster changed them with no issues and second set were bang on. Very pleased with PARF mk2 system. Combined with my track saw and bench dogs, my game has certainly improved. Good honest video by the way!

[@marknadin770]

JOHN to save your table find out where you do most of your cuts router a grove and put a sacrificial piece of wood in the groove .

[@jarnleikr]

I'm considering the Part system, but this was one thing that concerned me too - how to avoid cuts in the table top. Besides making a groove, could one use some thin plywood between the table top and the piece to be cut? Or do you think this would in some way introduce precision errors?

[@jarnleikr]

@Chris Blair Haha, that's hilarious :-) But I like the idea of a top instead of a groove - seems like less work. And the holes in the sacrificial top doesn't have to be accurate either. Thanks!

[@jarnleikr]

@Chris Blair great! I’ll check that out, thanks :-)

[@MCsCreations]

The table is really looking great, John! 😊 Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊

[@mymusings5948]

So much integrity. Well done.

[@vossievos3040]

Thanks

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Thank you!

[@Advcrazy]

I’ve had the exact same issue you did. Followed tye instructions exactly. Double checked all pins were fully seated etc. My first 10x10 grid doesn’t line up square. As per instructions I drilled the first row, first column, second row (opposite side of table) and the second column(opposite side of the grid from the first column) doesn’t line up. Locating pins don’t fit in unless I lift up the middle if the ruler so it’s bowed upwards. Have attempted this twice with the exact same issue. It’s not user error. It’s the free play between the rulers and the drill guides. Waste of money, waste of time and waste of an $80 (in norway) sheet of mdf. My top is dead flat (less than 0.003” max discrepancy). Disappointed to say the least. I’ll look for a different system that doesn’t involve moving rulers and pins as many times which just compounds errors.

[@memezilla4370]

It takes a great person to admit their fault. You, like probably 99% of us, only read instructions after we run into trouble 🤣🤪 And a great job on fixing the problem initially

[@stephensimpson5283]

I'm glad Peter sent me here to your channel. I use the Bosch track guide as well.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Welcome aboard!

[@YIQUANONE]

I made a big table using Festool 32mm jig and it worked great, after rebuilding because the shop burned up in a CA wildfire a few years ago, wondering whether to get Festool fence and jig stuff or try another method like this one.

[@affinitydesignsworkshop]

This is a really good video and explanation 🙏

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Thanks, I'm glad you liked it

[@richardmarquardt6246]

Good on you John for the immediate feedback. Peter is a great and I enjoy his videos and products. BTW, I just recently ran into your channel and really enjoy it also. You do a great job and seem to be a really straight up guy. I must say being from America that I really enjoy your "accent". Since I enjoy Scotch I will have to try some Irish Whiskeys on your recommendation. Keep up the great videos. Take it easy and stay safe.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Thanks Richard glad you are enjoying the content. Get yourself a Bottle of Redbreast 12 if you want to try an Irish Whiskey 😉

[@richardmarquardt6246]

@@JohnMcGrathManInShed I will. Here in Virginia you can only buy spirits from the state store. But they do have Redbreat 12 for $62.Which by the way is twice what they want for regular Jameson.

[@kylecroft5807]

Good man John 👌 i have the parf guide, dying to use it and I even watched Peter’s videos again to see if you might have gone wrong somewhere..... 🇮🇪🇮🇪

[@anatoliyefimov4984]

your last video where you used the parf guide system and built the table/workbench itself, you said you'd place supports underneath to support the MFT table.. would love to see that...

[@Logcabin3123]

good stuff

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Before someone says it I know I could be checking a parallelogram with the technique I was using with the jig but that would need to be true of all the holes which I doubt.

[@damianmarquith3741]

John, interested in building my own MFT as everyone else has commented. An idea as to why you may have got a very minor error. Even as thin as the thickness of the ruler/straight edges being used. Would that infinitesimal height difference skew the distance ever so slightly? Meaning, the vertical height of adding one ruler on top of the other...will ever so slightly move one hole out of alignment...just a wee bit. In one or two markings it would not be noticed...but over time and distance that small deviation would compound. An easy fix...if this was the real cause...is to have one ruler twice as thick...but not at the end points where you would align them to connect to make your triangle. Just a thought. And really appreciate the work you went int explaining the system. Definitely on my wish list. Good luck!

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

It was just my approach, there is a way of laying about the holes to avoid errors, I just didn't follow the instructions

[@davidhull1610]

I suppose that the moral of this story is always read the instructions! Nice job on the table build and you have gained one subscriber

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Thanks David

[@sifirid]

Good day to you John!

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Hello to you.

[@brianmosse]

I recon its worth it's money my effort worked out great.

[@robincooney1263]

Thanks for your videos on the Parf Guide System Mk2, John. I have just bought one - and guess what - I got an error on a small 10 x 7 matrix of holes. Mine seems to be faulty Parf sticks. All credit to Axminster, they are posting me some new ones overnight, but I did spend a few frustrating hours re-reading the instructions, re-watching Peter's videos and taking my own photos to check that it wasn't me not following the process correctly. How exactly did you rescue your top from the mistake?

[@Annaisineire]

Great work John!!!

[@trevornokesmusicltd5357]

HI John, I'm new to your Channel. I must say Fantastic Presentation and explanation through all of your videos.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Thanks Trevor welcome along!

[@DeclanCostello1973]

John, love your channel. What thickness is the MDF on your table ? Looks like 30mm ? Any issues with clamps going thru the holes ?

[@thelockdowncompany2960]

Very informative video once again. Hello from cork

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Glad you liked it.

[@proteus1]

Hi John, i want to cut a sheet of 8x4 down on it's longest side. I have the guide rails and dogs and the table is all drilled out. Do you have a video on how to do this. Shelves for my van i'm trying to make 225 deep

[@Megatomslick1]

Does the kit chamfer the top of the 20mm holes?

[@2tall54]

Great table....I am glad everything turned out fine. Did you put the Danish oil on after you drilled all the holes? If so, you will have to let us know if the oil will cause the holes to slightly swell a bit. Looking forward to seeing the rest of your build on this table. great job!

[@mikerussell6469]

I used Danish oil on my CNC top and it’s hard to stop it running in the holes. I used a Dremel with a little drum sander to clean up which worked ok. But - oil both sides. I was impatient and didn’t and my Medite MRMDF 18mm top now has an arch. I think it’s swollen on the bottom side.

[@wayneblythe5713]

You live you learn! Marrying my wife was my biggest mistake in life. 👏🏻👍🏻🇬🇧

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

😲

[@frankstover3444]

Same here 🇺🇸

[@carlosmit8646]

😂😂😂😂

[@largebob68]

Great video John. Did you coat the MDF with Danish Oil before or after drilling the holes? If you coated it after drilling the holes, did you have any issues with the dogs fitting? i.e. did the MDF swell?

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

did it after I drilled the holes, the MR MDF didn't seem to move at all.

[@philippeterson9512]

I’ve been thinking of replacing my current workbench top with an MFT. Right now I have two layers of MDF. Would there be any problems with jigs if I drilled through both layers, and just flipped them when they get used up? That would give me four sides which should last me a number of years.

[@prairieskycam]

I stumbled across your channels and watched your videos on the Parf Guide system. I’m intrigued and may someday build a MFT. I really like your method of describing things and look forward to watching more of your videos. Thank you for making them. I like the idea of a downdraft section and a built in router table, but I’m a little confused. If the MDF on the MFT is meant to be sacrificial, would you have to recreate your router table every time you create a new top for your MFT, or am I missing something? Thank you.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

I will put a cut in the top with the track saw and just replace the mft section when its time. I didn't do it yet as I would lose the kerf of the blade in width and I wanted to use the the full sheet as a template to make my table. Welcome along!

[@prairieskycam]

@@JohnMcGrathManInShed Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

[@normanboyes4983]

Good set of vids on the Parf guide and the potential poo trap. Do you intend doing a 4 (5) cut test to get a number on the practical accuracy achieved?

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

I will do

[@keithomuiri2993]

I’d love to rent this system for a tabletop, but can’t justify the €255 cost to buy

[@kieransullivan9483]

My 8’ x 4’ grid using the Parf guide 2 system is more accurate than my CNC could do. So it’s not nearly as good as CNC, it’s better. It is a lot more work than CNC, but worth it.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

that is pretty impressive

[@PaulSmith-rd8yc]

John it sounds amazing what’s the last one I’m glad you sorted it out when I go to Axminster next will ask him if I can have a feel of one these sets

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

It might be a good table to work with for you Paul as you could feel all the holes. it might help you square things up easier.

[@PaulSmith-rd8yc]

John McGrath was thinking about it John might be easier to do a lot of stuff actually even cutting bits of wood as you got square edges to hold the wood against.. The Axminster shop at Sittingbourne near where I live have got a workshop they teach people there and do demonstration so fingers crossed they will have a table with the set up on it. Do you have to do a massive great big sheet like you did as I haven’t got that much room could do half the sheet?

[@paulwright6145]

Just looking back through your videos John as I’m retiring in next few days and am looking at building a bench similar to yours. I have a question that I hope you can advise on. It concerns the height of the table. I am only5f 6in and was wondering what height should my finished project be?

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Make it to a height that is comfortable for you to work at, I can't give you a measurement as it's different for everyone

[@Megatomslick1]

What is the height of your table

[@SandyMasquith]

Thank you for the follow-up video John. I hope there’s a good supplier here in the States. We don’t have Axeminster here. Maybe Woodcraft or Rocker carry the Parf Guide system. I was thinking of doing a melamine top on mine where the router table will go. It’ll make a tiny lip (it’ll be higher than the rest of the table by the thickness of the melamine), but I’m thinking it’ll make the top last longer (I wouldn’t generally use the router side to beat project parts together), and wood will slip nicely over that surface. Any thoughts on that idea?

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Melamine is a great idea, it should work well.

[@larrycurran7005]

In the states TSO Products carry the Parf system, tsoproducts.com. Hope that helps. I am also looking at that system.

[@ilirgorani4261]

I bought mine directly from Axminster and received it within 2 days via DHL. They do ship worldwide. I live in MI. Try Lee Valley as well.

[@johnweston538]

Hello, John another John here, love your channel, quick question, do you have any details on the track clamps you show in your video, could not find them on your tool page on amazon.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Should be in the woodworking tools section

[@harpalyke4659]

Howya John. Really enjoying your MFT build. Table turned out great, fair play. Question for you on those parf dogs. What diameter are they if you throw a caliper on them? are they bang on 20 or a bit less? Reason I ask is I have a set of dogs and the fence system from benchdogs uk and they are slightly under 20 and there is a bit of slop when I fit them in a 20mm hole. I'm using a router and a jig to do my MFT and it seems that the 20 mm router bits I've tried so far are all producing holes 20~20.1mm. I'm wondering now if I should abandon the router at this stage and take a punt on the parf system if the parfdogs size match the benchdogs ones.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

They are bang on 20mm with caliper. I wonder how clean a cut you are getting with a router and bit, with out a brad point on the bit they can wander slightly.

[@harpalyke4659]

@@JohnMcGrathManInShed Yeah, I found through a bit of trial and error that the router probably isnt the best tool for the job. Need to get the speed right and have good dust collection to get a nice clean cut in the MDF but the holes are still a bit oversized even with a few different bits (festool/trend). Might even be a bit of run out in the router too as its only a cheap erbauer from screwfix. It looks much easier to get a nice finish on the holes with the parf system and probably a lot less messing around with the router. Thanks a million for checking that!

[@michaelkelly3356]

Hi John thanks for the video. I just made a small prototype mft before I start on the bigger and permanent version and would have done like you. For the DIY guys #PeterMillard at #10minuteworkshop has a few great jigs for use with the MFT

[@Figure11_Home_and_Garden]

Watching the video I hear my old instructor saying "RTFM" (read the f**king manual). I lose count of the times I haven't taken his advise.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Good advice

[@nevillewebb2856]

So here’s a question - how many squares are there on John’s table? Answers on a postcard please... 😂

[@andrewknots]

John’s table has a grid 17x10, so that makes 1x1 squares = 9x16 = 144 2x2 squares = 8x15 = 120 3x3 squares = 7x14 = 98 4x4 squares = 6x13 = 78 5x5 squares = 5x12 = 60 6 x6 squares = 4x11 = 44 7x7 squares = 3x10 = 30 8x8 squares = 2 x 9 = 18 9x9 squares = 8 Total. 600 squares

[@tpobrienjr]

*All* Irish whiskey is fine.....

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

There are one or two doggy ones lol

[@RickFarris]

Whose error was it John?

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Mine

[@matthewsmade]

Has any one bought a cnc mft section for about £30 then used it as a template to make a bigger table?

[@nialstewart8263]

I have started trying to do that. I got an "mft replacement top" in MDF and have been trying to use that as a pattern, clamping it from the top then plunging a template router bit with the bearing at the top in through the hole to try to v create a clean copy of it. It hasn't worked brilliantly well but I think I was being too brutal with the bit when plunging, this also creates a lot of 'swarf'in the hole as you're trying to plunge through it. I've bought a 14mm auger to try same thing but starting with a hole pre drilled (my router bit is 12.5mm). I'll report back how this goes, if it works it's a fairly cheap way of producing the top, £45 for the mft replacement and £10 for the router bit.

[@matthewsmade]

@@nialstewart8263 have you thought of trying a 20mm forstner bit and drilling it out in one go

[@nialstewart8263]

@@matthewsmade I don't think I'd want to do that with the MDF template as it would probably mangle it, so that would be down to the accuracy you could lay out the hole positions and drill the holes out at 90 Deg. I have bought a 20mm auger bit from Screwfix as I was so impressed with the clean hole the 14mm bit creates (and they are IMHO quite cheap). An alternative would be to make a jig, possibly with a couple of bearings, to keep this at 90 degrees with some clamping mechanism to hold it in place (with dogs for location too?) so you can still the holes relatively accurately.