Heat Geek Super Cylinder Tested: The Most Efficient Hot Water Ever?

[@71brp84]

We've had our 250l Heatgeek cylinder in for nearly 3 months and are averaging a CoP of 4.7 for dhw only. I might add, that's at night during our cheap electric period, so it's costing about 10p/day to heat. Couldnt be happier.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

That’s a mad cop for night heating as it is much colder at night. What size is your heat pump?

[@71brp84]

@@UrbanPlumbers 7kW Vaillant.

[@Cyberbobxxxx]

Utter nonsense

[@Cyberbobxxxx]

If you’re on what used to be called economy 7 then you might be paying 7p per kh but you will be paying way over the odds for your day rate price. Our gas for our combi boiler over the summer was about £15 a month for 4 showers and abit of washing up!! And it only cost £1200 to put in 7 years ago. As a plumber for 20year I took out hundreds of mega flows a cylinders and replaced with gas combi boilers. Can’t get better!

[@jamesdaw131]

@@Cyberbobxxxx a) Depends on what you define as better b) And octopus intelligent go is about 4p per KWh more than a normal tariff in the day. And obviously you would have a battery (or elec car or both) with that tariff....

[@NewarkCylindersMarketing]

The full Mini Store specification (including performance data) can now be found on our website. It will be available to order from August 12th 2024.

[@matthieu8292]

please share a drawing / schematic when trying to combine a combi boiler with a minicylinder thank you

[@meineszmf]

Nice one again, good to see the cooperation of you and Adam, both geeks 👍

[@asabriggs6426]

Good to see you're fettling your home setup. The mark of a good engineer is to be interested in how things are performing and tweaking them. I am not sure experimenting with the shower's hot water supply is the mark of a good husband, but she no doubt knew you were a heating geek! Delta-T of 25 degrees, 200 litres, perhaps 7kW power from the heat pump (I think the Arotherm Plus has plenty of oomph on a summer's day) = 1 hour or thereabouts. As for COP ... I would hope for something north of 4, given it is warm outside and SCOPs for 45 degree design temperature heating are around this level.

[@tlangdon12]

I think Simon said the Heat Pump was officially rated at 5kW, but it's clearly outputing more tha 5kW to reheat in under and hour.

[@asabriggs6426]

@@tlangdon12 The Vaillant Arotherm Plus certainly are rated conservatively; it is their output in cold weather while producing hot water. Probably better than over-promising!

[@jonathanInLondonUK]

For those of us with combi's what would be a game changer is a super efficient cylinder in the shape of a combi boiler which can be wall hung.

[@Felix-st2ue]

The mini store was meant to do that.

[@jonathanInLondonUK]

@@Felix-st2ue At 475mm deep, the mini-store wouldn't fit where my combi is wall-mounted.

[@singlendhot8628]

Finally, someone actually reviewed these!

[@HaggisMuncher-69-420]

It's not really a review if the a rep from the company actually shows up. Do you really think this is an independent review you can trust?

[@smartboilercompany1983]

Friday testing late in the day gives me anxiety 😂press fittings definitely make it less stressful 😊

[@simbee3634]

Interesting. We are having a heat pump system installed to run alongside solar water heating, and they have fitted the new Cordivar PDC system. Rather than two coils for solar and heat pump, it has one for the solar hot water, but on the top of the cylinder is a small set-up with a heat exchanger, small pump and a piping circuit that heats the domestic water from the heat pump - based on the stratification theory that you talk about. It seems that there are changes afoot in the world of DHW tanks!.

[@andrewmillwardwatford9410]

It's great to see Adam contributing to our industry according to the great principles of socialism. We need a lot more of this kind of action. Fantastic video you are definitely number one Of your videos

[@geoffaries]

By "socialism" do you mean that you will own nothing and be happy😏

[@andrewmillwardwatford9410]

@@geoffaries socialism mean to own everything

[@andrewmillwardwatford9410]

@@geoffaries no I mean about shared ownership of everything. It was really the very catalyst that resulted in heat geek. I was running events for Eco technicians free of charge as I have received my full education as an engineer free of charge from a socialist policy of the 1970s government

[@normanboyes4983]

Excellent video I look forward to perusing the OE data. It is great that Newark have adopted the HG design(s) and not at all surprising that other manufacturers have followed and anyone who understands production engineering will know why. Very impressive performance figures all round. But there is an elephant in the room. Newark cannot be producing these and selling these at ‘shop average’ heat pump cylinder prices. So the elephant question has to be at a say 10% reduction in running costs (compared to a Joule HP cylinder) what is the break even point (in years) to affray the additional capital cost of the HG cylinder? (Not a Luddite negative question).

[@UrbanPlumbers]

It’s is going to be years. Possibly even 10-12

[@UrbanPlumbers]

It’s is going to be years. Possibly even 10-12

[@avivscrewvalla]

60 minutes - 1 hour! Marie would make a great news presenter lol.

[@MrStraightdart]

I’m currently running a 500L thermal store with my 7kw Vaillant and am getting almost identical figures to the heat geek cylinder. I’m looking forward to seeing how it performs when I’m using the heating. I’ve also run the outlet from my mvhr system to the back of the heat pump to see the affect if any on the cop during the winter.

[@syncrosimon]

Great video, great products. Thanks.

[@effervescence5664]

This is really interesting as I've yet to fit a heat geek cylinder, for a heat pump it's a no brainer as long as the cost is comparable with a manufactures own or Mixergy which are the ones that come up in conversations with customers most.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

the best vaule cylinders in my opinion are Joules. Newark and Mixergy are really expensive for what they are in my opinion.

[@ram64man]

given the coil is extended to the lower, is there any replacement annode so it doesn't corrode to match many old coppers that run 20 years plus?

[@Ricksterrj]

I wish you would come to me. I paid for the survey 3 weeks ago and was told 2 weeks later we can't survey your property because there are no heat geeks in your area and you need to wait until somebody gets trained up.

[@Umski]

Jeez, 6m2 puts my puny Megaflo with 0.79m2 into perspective 😮 I always wondered why higher surface area coils weren’t “a thing” when I researched into using solar evacuated tubes many years ago - it was still a niche back then but it seems things haven’t moved on with the legacy OEMs that probably still just use variations of the same designs with minor tweaks rather than full on changes to coil surface areas - cynically also probably down to cost as provided the temperature is cranked up and the recovery time reasonable they couldn’t care less about efficiency I imagine 🙄

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Why would manufacturers spend more on materials - 95% of installers and customers only look at the price and maybe insulation rating - that’s it. Hard to shift a 6m2 coil cylinder that costs much more unless you can show people what it does !

[@Umski]

@@UrbanPlumbers exactly, it's self-fulfilling unfortunately, plus the cylinder is probably the least "glamorous" part of an install in their eyes and the coil is invisible so "who cares?" as it were - on the other hand everyone loves shiny new heat pumps that they can tell their mates about or show the neighbours, unlike the poor old cylinder tucked away in the airing cupboard 😏

[@SolAce-nw2hf]

That thing is huge. I would really love a horizontal one that fits under the lowest point of the roof, but my guess is that it will be horrible to design in terms of hot/cold separation.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Horizontal cylinders are problematic and best avoided if at all possible

[@SolAce-nw2hf]

@@UrbanPlumbers Maybe the ministor will be a good alternative as it is pretty low. Can't wait for the results.

[@paulgilliland2992]

Why is that ? We’ve been using them in marine applications forever and 15 years of service isn’t uncommon .

[@adamcooper4351]

Does the heat geek cylinder reduce both the cost of install, and (like the mini store) the need for extra bits like in a standard cylinder? Also can these be installed in a loft space?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

HG cylinder is more expensive than regular cylinder. Mini store is also pretty pricey for what it is. Savings should come from lower running costs.

[@Angel_VR18]

I’ve done the Kimbo training but if I was to buy this product I’d need to pay the higher price now from Newark, because I’ve not completed another course. I’m a big fan of heatgeek but Newark are creating different pricing for whoever buys it.

[@NewarkCylindersMarketing]

This price tier structure is just what has been specified by Heat Geek for these ranges of cylinders as a bonus to everyone who has invested in their training courses and verification processes.

[@mgbroadsterJ]

Will it work better on priority hot water ?

[@wardy89]

My parents had the 250l variant of this installed about 2 months ago. So far very impressed (I know it’s summer ) but the current hot water scoop is over 5

[@UrbanPlumbers]

yes - if you keep the strore at below 48 and get the settings right you will have cop of 5 in the summer. Great desgin.

[@wardy89]

@@UrbanPlumbers i forgot to say that’s with a store temp of 50c, although your figures are more acupuncture as my parents heat pump doesn’t currently have independent monitoring set up, so that just what the uni is reporting

[@richardharding9097]

@@UrbanPlumbers what does the Vaillant App report the energy efficiency to be as a comparison to the Open Energy Monitor please? I've got the same 5kW unit and heating hot water to 50C and the App reports 4.9 efficiency. Just be interesting to see how the two compare.

[@richardharding9097]

also the DHW is set to Eco currently and runs over night in the off peak period.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@richardharding9097 in most cases Vaillant app over estimates scop by some 20%

[@gr328]

"Selling out quicker than your new Government!" Nice one 😃

[@UrbanPlumbers]

😂

[@dan.vitale]

Spicy!!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

​@@dan.vitale not everyone liked it - already getting abuse from sad humorless trolls.

[@sygad1]

damn, that line was brutal...........and probably completely true

[@aster7693]

@@UrbanPlumberslabour voters don’t have a sense of humour, be careful they might report you for a hate crime 😂

[@myatix1]

Thanks for sharing! Would be very interested to see what settings you use with the HG cylinder to maximise efficiency. What about when you connect a secondary return , how does that affect stratification??? Presumably this also disturbs the stratification layers?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yes, it really affects the cop in a negative way on some of my installations

[@myatix1]

They should add a long dip tub to the secondary return on the Heat Geek Cylinder. I have a 300l heat geek cylinder and am a little disappointed that they didn’t think about this issue on the new Newark cylinder.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@myatix1 no - it needs to be connected as high as possible not taken to the bottom of the cylinder

[@Joe-s2y4m]

Now can we get that type of cylinder but with the ability to work it on a twin coil so we can utilise solar thermal? Finally does it have the possibility to use an electric heating element as back up so if a heat pump breaks down. Hot water is still available so less of a rush to get the repairs done

[@UrbanPlumbers]

you can order a custom twin coil cylinder from Newark that will have large HP coil and also a solar coil. It becomes rather large and expansive. Yes the cylidner has an immerion back up.

[@DB-ew8no]

During the colder weather I have the heat pump set to 28 degrees, which works fine on the house temperature and hot water combined. This new cylinder works more efficiently due to the larger surface area of heat transfer, during the summer months would it be more cost effective and efficient to increase the flow temperature to heat the domestic hot water, allowing the heat transfer to the tank to increase using the warmer outside ambient temperature to reduce running times or power consumption

[@bingo96-y5l]

How long would it take the additional efficiency to offset the additional price?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I don’t know. Probably only worth it in high hot water usage situations.

[@yngndrw.]

I can't believe you bought a smoke machine just for Adam's entrance.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Nahh, good old smoke pellets from testing chimneys - all heating engineers have them somewhere in the Van

[@markcoppersmith]

Who scratched the pink minstore, it was perfect when it left the show.😊

[@UrbanPlumbers]

proably me

[@jedherman7450]

How come you had the heating on in July? I notice Adam’s daily COP (and thus position in the top of the COPs) benefits from running his heating at night…

[@UrbanPlumbers]

It comes on when outside temperature drops below 16c

[@davidaustin967]

I need to replace my cylinder on my system boiler. Could I use one of these? I am intending to move to a heat pump in a few years time.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yes, it would work great with gas boilers and keep them in condensing mode through the cycle. Mind you this will cost you 3 x the price of a regular unvented

[@robert.wigley]

How are both you and Heat Geek not feeding your data into Home Assistant and analysing it there?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

whats home assistant?

[@robert.wigley]

@@UrbanPlumbers An open source home automation platform that also does energy monitoring and analysis.

[@dazzc4946]

So would the extra efficiency of these tanks mean we could use a smaller ASHP?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

no

[@jonjo6886]

Just out of interest I measured the amount of water I use in my bath. I emptied the bath into the sink and there was 26 litres of water within. How much water would people estimate is used when taking a shower? Having well hot water, I initially added about a third of the volume of cold water.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

a bath would be around 100 liters. Shower will use 6-12 l / per minute of usually hot and cold mixed.

[@jonjo6886]

@@UrbanPlumbers I actually measured the amount of water I used, there's no need at all to put in 100 litres.

[@davidaustin967]

@@jonjo6886 that’s true, you technically could have a bath with just a few litres of water, just not sure how comfortable it would be.

[@JonsBananar]

Looking tp install a proper cylinder for my parents place. Its got solar and a gas boiler, i was leaning towards a valiant or viessman cylinder. This would just be way out of their price range. What would you recommend?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Joule High Gain or regular Joupe

[@JonsBananar]

@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks a bunch! Specs look good, great price too.

[@MrRuari]

How will manufacturers variety their heat pumps if not linked to their own cylinders?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

there is no requirement to install heat pumps with manufacturers' cylinders. Some try to force you by limiting warranties if you install heat pumps with 3rd party cylinders.

[@ColumbusDixon]

Thanks

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Thank you 🙏

[@FrankReif]

10kwh store. 5kw heat pump. 2hrs. COP 5.5 at this time of year. Edit: Cold inlet temp was probably near 15C, DT 30 so 7kwh store? 1h24m if peak output is 5kw.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Don’t forget that with 20c outside a 5kw heat pump outputs 8kW!

[@ciaranclose192]

Dip tubes have been a problem on combi stores. How robust is the dip tube on the cylinder and whats the warranty

[@UrbanPlumbers]

It’s just a bit of pipe turned down and with bigger bore. What could potentially go wrong with it?

[@ciaranclose192]

@@UrbanPlumbers have you seen the dip tube problems associated with the vaillant 937 or ultracom store 35?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Those were tiny and plastic no?

[@ciaranclose192]

@@UrbanPlumbers yes. Its why im asking. Hopefully the dip tube in this cylinder aint plastic?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

of course it isnt! It stainless steel or brass. I am sure Newark will comment soon!

[@stephendoherty8291]

Does it work as well without a heat pump heating system and can if allow for an immersion backup heat source (in case the heat pump fails/in repair). If a heat pump takes advantage of pressure to generate heat, would this be somehow useful as a pressurised hot water tank ie just increase the water pressure in the tank to generate heat as a byproduct. I recall my scuba tanks got hot when air at pressure was injected into the tank and lost heat as air was vented and a vacumn was left

[@davideyres955]

Heat pumps use evaporation and condensing to exchange heat between 2 heat exchangers. It’s not just compression that makes the heat. The pressure is used to make sure the refrigerant evaporates where you want cold and condenses where you want heat. Heat pumps and air conditioning are basically the same thing. The cop coefficient of performance is how much power you use for the heat that is generated. They are not really 400% efficient but they generate more heat units than they consume in electrical per units because you are effectively sucking heat out of the air to evaporate the refrigerant. Sure some of the compression will be adding heat but the phase change is what is important.

[@davideyres955]

The tank will work with a boiler too. This works on having more surface area to take the heat out of the hot water coming from the boiler/ heat pump. The colder you can run heat pumps and boilers the more efficiency you get. The hotter something is the quicker it wants to get to equilibrium. Hence needing smaller radiator for hot boilers. So for a lower temperature you need more surface area to have a greater exchange of heat. So in short this cylinder will help you run your condensing boiler at a low temperature which will make more use of the flue gas condensing and giving up heat and getting more heat out of each unit of gas you burn. So you may be able to run it for less time. But heat pumps will show a much larger efficiency as boilers are probably going to be an extra percentage or 2 as they are already per much at the top of their game. Hope this helps.

[@yanev7707]

I don't know how common is my situation, but my space constrains is forcing me to use horizontal DHW cylinder. Can Adam's design be emulated with plated heat exchanger and horizontal cylinder? Adam mentioned breafly about using separeted heat exchanger, but I can't find more information on how to design such system with horizontal cylinder. Any suggest where to start?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Lack of stratification and also distortion of plate loading would make it very hard to get decent efficiency in horizontal cylinders

[@neiljones2099]

I have a horizontal cylinder because of lack of height and space, I always wondered when I bought it if it would make any difference if I had 2 small vertical cylinders that would fit in the space instead of the larger horizontal cylinder in regards to stratification?

[@michaelrussell8921]

The main issue is it needs a relatively huge heat pump. Ok for retrofit but not great for passive level new builds. I want to do a2a for space heating and cooling and have a separate hot water tank with its own a2w heat pump. Can't see this fitting my use case....

[@edc1569]

Think 20 years, maintaining a single heat source is potentially a lot cheaper than a bunch of a2a cassettes, condensate pumps, along with a secondary water heater.

[@olivercoleman930]

What is the surface area of coil?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

6m2

[@pmbpmb5416]

My only ask is that Newark use quality materials , we expect cylinders to last decades and these need to do similar , cos having ordered one they are quite a wedge .

[@NewarkCylindersMarketing]

We use LDX 2101 Duplex stainless for the smaller units, and 316L stainless for the larger units, both of which are considered very high quality grades. All of our Heat Geek-endorsed cylinders are guaranteed by us for 7 years, against manufacturing defects. How they will stand up to corrosion, stress fatigue (if not annually serviced), accidental damage, or any other factors outside of our control, is impossible to predict.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I know what you mean ;)

[@pmbpmb5416]

Thanks for taking the trouble to supply the info .

[@serraios1989]

2:30 fancy haircuts lads

[@edwardpickering9006]

It's brilliant, just a shame there isn't a way to retrofit the tech to an existing modern cylinder. Really don't want to throw out perfectly good 2 year old one...

[@UrbanPlumbers]

install plate loading - works fine

[@edwardpickering9006]

@UrbanPlumbers please can you do a video about this, would really help the situation I am in!

[@user-ry7yg2hk7i]

You can add a stainless steel corrugated pipe inside the cylinder or ouside stainless steel plate exchanger + recirculation pumps and flow meter. After that you obtain an hygienic cylinder.

[@Biglenton]

I reckon 25 min reheat scop of 3.8…

[@bryanwhite28]

Standard 200 hp cylinder 900 quid.....cost analysis please

[@UrbanPlumbers]

yes, decent 200L heat pump cylinder is around £1,000 plus Vat. This cylinder is not to safe yo money, it is to show how efficient hot water can be. Probably around £500-£600 more expensive. Will it pay for itself over the life span of the system? Proabbly will. I think Heat Geek run the numbers, but I do not have them to hand.

[@marshallb5210]

gas boiler goes brrrrrrr

[@deanofakesie8153]

Adam is growing on me, fair play for giving the manufacturers a lead and not making any money

[@mihaiachim5299]

Don’t worry respectable manufacturers know how to make an extremely efficient product… but if you make the best product at 40 to 60% more than the competition you will risk to get out of business… or to be bought by a high volume manufacturer… like VW bought Bugatti for example…

[@tlangdon12]

@@mihaiachim5299 While the respectable manufacturers know how to make an extremely efficient product, they don't. Adam explained the reason why - intertia. The big manufacturers sell in volume, and the UK marketplace generally isn't very demanding, so there is no commercial reason for the manufacturers to improve their product. Newark Cylinders have a major opportunity here, and could put other competitors out of business.

[@mihaiachim5299]

@@tlangdon12 they don’t because they all have to compete in a price sensitive market…. There are very few people for whom money is not an issue… Not all the people want to invest a lot of money in a heatpump heating system … For some people the priority could be a bigger PV System or nicer looking rims for their car… most of families budgets are not infinite… and the manufacturer’s have to adjust to the market needs …

[@HowardBurgess]

Kudos to Adam for pushing the industry to increase efficiency. He would be crazy if he’s not charging a licensing fee for using the Heat Geek name, though. The cylinder can’t be that much more to manufacture than a regular one, yet the price is quite high. Someone is making money somewhere (as they should, really!)

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@HowardBurgess have you seen 6m2 coil !!?

[@damopee]

Why has a heat pump installer got “logs” stacked in his garage?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

To burn them in a log burner - what else would you stack them for?

[@KavanOBrien]

So it took 56 minutes to heat the cylinder? I have an old immersion tank in the airing cupboard which usually takes around half an hour to heat from cold it isn’t a small tank , so just curious of the cost of heat geek tank from electric cost keeping in mind it took 56 minutes so I could compare it too 30 minutes cost of my old immersion tank , I will turn everything off in the house for the time trial.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

3kW immersion would have taken more than double that time

[@edc1569]

Time is not relevant to cost, cost is all about the amount of energy transferred, if you use a heat-pump you get a CoP of at least 3, so it costs 1/3 of that of using direct electricity, if the heat-pump managed a CoP of 5 then it's 1/5th the cost of direct electric heating.

[@KavanOBrien]

@@UrbanPlumbers what you’re saying my immersion takes two hours. really what the hell have I got then.

[@KavanOBrien]

@@edc1569 efficient unit will always be more beneficial but there still has to be a cost factor , all I was asking if it takes 56 minutes to heat that tank of water how much money did it cost that’s it , yes I know different tariffs will cost more or less with different suppliers but there has to be a ball park figure, I can only ask questions how I see life , it doesn’t make me correct or incorrect, personally I think lots of the heat pump information is only geared too efficient scenarios = great but I still would like to know a basic question how much did it cost a tank of water that took 56 minutes to heat .

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@kavanobrien6547 I think it took 1.3kWh of electricity to charge 6.3 kWh of energy into the cylinder. At 22p per kWh it costs me between 20p and 29p to charge the cylinder to 45c

[@m6dent]

Hardly invented the wheel here guys. Just modern tech rebranded.

[@serraios1989]

The 250lt is priced £1,943.34 Seriously taking the piss

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yet the lead time to be able to get one is some 60 days now

[@serraios1989]

⁠@@UrbanPlumbers Agreed! Market price depends on demand and supply 7:01 In that case perhaps the claim that heat geeks don’t make any money needs to be reviewed

[@1serhiy]

I can tell "selling out" is a joke, but normally a joke has some kind of underlying truth that is being made fun of. Has something happened that is relevant to the industry?

[@honumoorea873]

I do not see what's new here...thermal cylinders are made that way (good ones at least). And some are even better witH a central tube and diffuser.

[@AdrianColes]

For the algorithm…

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Thank you 🤩

[@douglasstalley6475]

Rather have a plat heat if im honest as i live in a hard water area. Removing the plate occasionally for descale , keeping my heat transfer at its max. Simply can't do this with a coil !!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

You can - water softener !

[@douglasstalley6475]

Yes this is true,however the cost of the salt for the next twenty years and the extra water consumption, think ill stick with the plat thanks.

[@aesopshair6690]

​@@douglasstalley6475 There are saltless water softeners available that only need an occasional filter change; but agree that a plate heat exchanger seems quite appealing in a hard water area. If the water running through the heat pump is sealed there won't be a build up of scale inside the cylinder, only on the PHE, which can be cleaned/replaced more easily! (plenty of 50kw PHE commercially available)👍👍.. Happy to help you @UrbanPlumbers to develop a competing product - of course in Szymon blue! 🤣🤣

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@aesopshair6690 mixergy is already doing it and recently upgraded the plate. I wouldn’t mind testing a plate and seeing what can be achieved - however plate loading at cop of 5.0 - wel will be tricky but could be retrofitted to existing small coil unvented

[@ericritchie6783]

Nah, kettle and electric shower is more efficient if you just have a modest shower and do the dishes in a smaller washbowl by a bigger rinse bowl, if you don't need to have baths ect... If by efficient you mean just "consuming less energy and materials" rather than moving extra kwh of heat around with a given amount of electric kwh.

[@bobsmith-dn1xw]

This took lees than 1.5kwh's of electricity to heat the tank. My electric shower draws 9kw so unless this tank is emptied after a 10 minute shower, the tank wins.

[@ericritchie6783]

@@bobsmith-dn1xw Come again, your electric shower draws 9kw? What like in an hour? How long do you shower for at "full blast?" So now checking mine with the monitor and bunging up to full is indeed drawing almost 9kw, the setting I actually use it at though is about 4kw... I will use about 5-10lt perhaps 15lts at the very max to shower as I don't see the point of leaving it running while I lather and scrub ect, nor particularly enjoy it running constantly kicking up extra moisture into the home than need be. So I usually only need about 1.5kwh a day total including water for dishes/showering, hotplate cooking, charging devices, refrigeration, lighting ect. Laundry days when averaged out. The tank looses for me basically. 2kwh a day is plenty overhead. About 540 kwh one years use I believe a recent bill stated. How many kwh do you use? Do you even know, or do you just know what money the bill says?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@ericritchie6783 tank heated to 45c with 20 ambient has almost no loses - probably below 0.5kWh / 24h. It also costs 8p to fully recharge the cylinder at cheaper tariff using heat pump so should be 10x cheaper than using electric shower for 20min a day

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@ericritchie6783 tank heated to 45c with 20 ambient has almost no loses - probably below 0.5kWh / 24h. It also costs 8p to fully recharge the cylinder at cheaper tariff using heat pump so should be 10x cheaper than using electric shower for 20min a day

[@ericritchie6783]

@@UrbanPlumbers So you need for the shower to be running full blast for 20 minutes in each case? How many liters is that? Let's please be more accurate to the requirements here. See my last comment, I don't sniff at 0.5kwh as an amount of energy.

[@regaldridge4248]

45 mins and 3.75 COP

[@pauladams5673]

30 minutes. COP 3.7

[@dionisienatea3137]

the most efficient cylinder would be vacuum insulated. yeah...better do that first...

[@UrbanPlumbers]

We are not talking about insulation levels here but lowest amount of energy required to raise the store to a usable temperature

[@normanboyes4983]

@@dionisienatea3137 Have you an idea of what it would cost to effect a vacuum around a structure like a 200Litre DHW cylinder and take a rough guess at the net weight? Just ignore the gland requirements for penetrations.

[@michaeldepodesta001]

My Guess: 1 h 10 m

[@UrbanPlumbers]

That’s in reduced mode. In full output it was some 15min quicker as it outputs around 8kW

[@michaeldepodesta001]

@@UrbanPlumbers Szymon: great video: thank you :-)

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@michaeldepodesta001 I was actually thinking of asking for your help analysing the data on those cylinders !

[@michaeldepodesta001]

@@UrbanPlumbers Of course. I will send you my spreadsheet for analysing the Mini cylinder. It makes the most optimistic assumptions about the heat transfer within the cylinder and so represents a best possible case. Adam's spreadsheet is more complex than mine, and models the heat transfer within the cylinder more realistically. But the heat transfer is so good that I doubt they differ very much in their predictions. I'll tidy it up and send it to you later. Best wishes: M

[@jonjo6886]

Urban Plumber, you're so lovely. However, I'm worried that you may be misleading some people. First concern is this; if our hot water drops to 45°c my wife stands there running the hot tap and shouts at me " John, we've got no hot water. Second concern; a mini cylinder would be virtually useless at 45°c, might serve as a hand-wash. Third concern; you give a CoP of nearly 5, but it is July, what about a foggy freezing November day? Fourth concern; in the winter your 5kw heat pump will have its work cut out heating your space. That efficient cylinder is absolutely huge and most probably costs a small fortune which would make it unviable for the masses. When we are getting more wind energy, a heat store at a high temperature may be what's needed. This would help the Grid by avoiding peak times. A heat pump running constantly isn't always going to be a viable solution. I like a hot bath, a good soak for 30 minutes, in that circumstance as the water cools down some really hot water is needed as a top up. Howabout having an inline electric booster? Say run your heat pump hot water at 45° and then bringing it up to a useful temperature with electricity?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

You can heat up that cylinder to 75c with my heat pump, it just will not be crazy efficient. No need for electric back up as it will always be less efficient. Regarding annual efficiency Adam 12 months scop of DHW is 4.7 Regarding national grid - recharge water at night when the grid has surplus of energy and not much to do with it - so they sell it for 1/3 of the price.

[@jonjo6886]

@@UrbanPlumbers yeah, you've got to realise we've had record warm winters recently. I have lived through a couple of cold winters, look up 1963. I store heat when the wind blows, on a few occasions I have earned a little credit, have a hybrid system and use resistance when necessary. There is no solar in the UK heating season, which could contribute to heating. The government needs to build up to date gas plants which are more efficient. Just imagine a prolonged high pressure event in winter, no sun, no wind. Even recently 3/4 of our electricity came from either gas or imports. I watch the mix every day and at times it's gas and nuclear doing the heavy lifting. I'm a farmer, I feel the rush for solar is misguided, solar can't power a single house without that energy is stored for when the sun doesn't shine. My son's partner can exhaust an ordinary dhw cylinder with one shower so I fitted an extra 300l cylinder. For 30 odd years I have used Economy 7...but that's dead now.....EV's? I'm an old man and have had 5 kids in the family and you get through a bit of hot water. I do have a heat pump, 16kw, the plate on the side says something like 3.8kw input. When I first started using it I pressed the instantaneous power button and it was drawing 9.6kw. I don't know about the heat pump being "green" it was myself that was "green". What I have decided to do is to reinstall the oil boiler and use the heat pump when the leccy is cheap. There's no way I could afford to run the heat pump continuously, it hardly ever goes below 6.5 kw. The underfloor works fairly well but my rooms need 3.5kw and the idea of radiators is hopeless, I would need 6 large double rads per room. What I have found is Panasonic FCU's which would do the job at 35°c, there is a catch, they're about £1,000 a piece, 8 rooms with 2 apiece would be a fair chunk of cash. If home batteries ever become safe and reliable and have a 30 year lifespan that could make a dent in our carbon, solar roof and decent battery people could be self sufficient for half the year. During the winter the battery would help the Grid. Perhaps we could go onto low voltage dc for lights tv fridges etc which would be more efficient and use the inverter for heavy loads. A lot of electricity goes to heating the atmosphere in the transmission and distribution so avoiding these losses and less need for upgrading infrastructure would be a win win!

[@jonjo6886]

Just now we are on 45% gas and 20% imports. Say electricity has a negative CoP of 3.

[@BenIsInSweden]

​@@jonjo6886 You might want to get your facts straight. Not sure what your point is about cold winters, was below -20C for 3 days straight here in January and my heat pumps still heated the house and provided hot water. There is solar in the UK heating season, it might not cover much, but for rooftop solar there is seasonal offsetting - your excess generation in summer can at least help cover the cost of your winter usage. You're also fantasising about the "but sometimes" with it being very cold and no sun nor wind. Even if gas was providing 100% of electricity all year round, on average, a properly installed heat pump will have used less gas than burning it in the home. Bottom line is, it's not, so from a green perspective, any generation by other sources is a bonus. a 16kW heat pump should have around 8kW on the plate. If you pressed a button for instant power then it's likely there's an additional immersion element kicking in. Heat pumps shouldn't be run in an "on demand" fashion as that is when they are least efficient. If you get an oil boiler installed then the person doing it will be breaking the building regulations, as a less efficient system cannot replace the existing system. If your heat pump hardly ever goes below 6.5kw then it was installed or setup wrong. My whole house's electricity (including cooking, PC use etc) for January averaged less than 4.2kW with the outside temperate spending 2/3rds of the month below 0C

[@jonjo6886]

Hi Ben, thanks for taking an interest. I like to get my facts right, just looked up electricity in Sweden and 41% hydro and about 30% nuclear. Yesterday in UK we had 45% gas and 20% imports. My place has absolutely huge heat loss. We never heat the bedrooms or bathrooms save for a radiant electric in one bathroom. We only heat rooms we are using and rely mainly on burning wood. When it is windy I can get credit for using electricity. If there was anywhere near enough solar in winter people would be self sufficient in heating but virtually nobody is. As far as I can see however much solar and wind we have in UK, we need back-up. I would like a solar/battery system but.....for a start I'm almost 80 years old and the technology isn't quite good enough. Electric cars aren't viable at present but they will get there. Batteries need to be half the weight they are at present and also the fire risk is far too high.

[@frederickbowdler8169]

It's a cylinder.😅😊

[@smartboilercompany1983]

Cop 5.5 and time will be 42 minutes

[@geoffaries]

There is nothing new, or special, about this cylinder. Many of us have been using tailormade cylinders produced by Gledhill. We have specified the coil size and design, including ways to deal with stratification, for many years. Its common for large commercial cylinders to have small de-stratification pumps. Tall narrow cylinders such as this heat geek design will suffer more from stratification than a short squat cylinder. The main reason that not many high performance cylinders are used in domestic properties are cost.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Suffer from stratification? Stratification is desirable and you don’t want to de stratify.

[@geoffaries]

@@UrbanPlumbers Well that depends on how much hot water you need. If you have a very high temperature primary flow temperature and a cylinder with a high capacity coil then no level of stratification is a problem, some of my cylinders have a very rapid recovery time. I'ts also not true to say that this cylinder is the "most efficient cylinder in the world" I could have a more effecient one made to order, it also depends on how you want to measure cylinder effeciency.

[@pumpkinhead456]

60 minutes, 3.6... Nice hair cut!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I expected similar myself

[@jeremydennis176]

@@UrbanPlumbers what a perm ? 🤣.. great insight from you both as always , sitting with other fuels at the minute but fascinated with tec and speed at which it’s changing .

[@Rockall57]

22min.....COP 4.5

[@serraios1989]

30minutes 3.7 cop

[@jeremydennis176]

More importantly.. his hair 🤣

[@alexaandrei7884]

COP around ...5 and time....around 30 min ! no calculation !

[@alexaandrei7884]

You sat COP 4.98 and 1 h 10 min, y got 1 almost dead onn !

[@sphelectrical]

50min

[@UrbanPlumbers]

so close - well done!

[@jablot5054]

Just fast forward to 2050 every house on the estate has a ASHP running.Its going to sound like Heathrow airport. Thats assuming the whole electricity network has been upgraded to take the load and we have built the 6 new nuclear reactors to power it and we have found our own source of fuel for them.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

my hosue with solar with produce more energy that it will use for everything, and that inculdes charging EV vans.

[@paulcornock8287]

There are heat pumps on the market with a coil like this it’s nothing new ya just clever how ya marketing it.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I have never seen a cylinder with a 6m2 coil on the market before. I don’t think anyone else makes them. If someone does post a link please.

[@paulcornock8287]

Then you haven’t checked all manufacturers ….

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@paulcornock8287 I have. No one else makes it. Send a link if I missed it please as it would be nice to have alternatives.

[@andrewmillwardwatford9410]

When I studied marketing if we made all the value available free of charge we would have been told it's extremely bad marketing. I suppose you could claim the kudos Adam will gain from free releasing this product for his main venture could be good promotion

[@robertszynal4745]

@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 Too much stuff being led by this sort of toxic marketing thinking. It's refreshing to see some ethics being put first. The average level of anti-consumer actions from most companies these days makes anyone who is pro-consumer stand out. Personally, I will be going out of my way to use a Heat Geek and to install one of these tanks this year as I finish my renovation.

[@ascot4000]

6m2 does make the 2.4m2 in my Vaillant HP cylinder look positively anaemic! Although being a gas user that still feels reasonably generous compared to the outdated thinking & designs that are out there. Shame the chap has posted on here without actually naming the illusive equivalent to this fresh design. @paulcornock8287 no comment?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I like those Vaillant cylinders and get good cops on them.

[@andrewmillwardwatford9410]

It's great to see Adam contributing to our industry according to the great principles of socialism. We need a lot more of this kind of action. Fantastic video you are definitely number one Of your videos