Detroit: Become Human - It's Bad

[@uricksaladbar]

Was there a moment in DETROIT that resonated with you personally? MANY OCCASIONALLY ONCE NO

[@leninthebeaniesouhacker.2459]

occasionally

[@thatgirlmarley6291]

Once

[@goldensp3038]

No.

[@burnstjamp]

No

[@xXxLovelyBloodxXx]

Occasionally

[@CrabRango]

Connor's story was by far the most engaging, but I feel so damn robbed knowing that his complete deviation happened with Markus, someone he had basically only just met, and not with Hank, someone who he had spent his entire character arc with. I remember being excited for Connor to finally deviate, but when it happened, I felt conflicted. It didn't really feel satisfying at all.

[@The_amazing_dust]

Yes!! That!!!

[@BWMagus]

That would have been VERY interesting, if Hank had done it.

[@mildly_nita]

i think the idea might’ve been that atp we were supposed to be attached to markus too, so seeing markus and connor interact at this big moment would’ve been exciting……. except the execution failed and made it almost awkward lmao

[@rosamelano1535]

Would have been a lot more interesting to see hank's strat to deviate connor!! would be a lot more deep and hit harder in the feels if it went like that... Now that i thought about it i cant belive no one in the developer team thought about this aaaaa

[@rosamelano1535]

Would have been a lot more interesting to see hank's strat to deviate connor!! would be a lot more deep and hit harder in the feels if it went like that... Now that i thought about it i cant belive no one in the developer team thought about this aaaaa

[@FoxyAreku]

The most fascinating thing about Detroit for me was that Kara and Alice can die in their very first scene and boom, a third of the game just doesn't happen in your playthrough anymore. That is just hilarious to me in so many ways.

[@NetralFN]

If you want that then yeah

[@datboy038]

Speedrun go brrrrrrrr

[@ghostrunner2138]

Honestly it’s a bold move that I really like because most of the choice based games don’t really go that deep

[@judaslol2480]

after the first playthrough i did with them i was so bored,every replay i just let them die in that first scene so i don't have to bother with it :p

[@Darkness19Z]

@@datboy038 I was thinking the same. Speedrunning strat: Kill the kid.

[@edef1244]

A good way to implement Chloe back onto the home menu... Is by simply showing that she returned out of her own volition. She can reappear for a brief period, an hour, for example, at random, saying that she wanted to check how things are going with you. This would actually make so much more sense.

[@kaine8911]

I wanna give you a like but I want to keep the "666" likes

[@illusionofquality979]

@@kaine8911 give the man his like

[@kaine8911]

@@illusionofquality979 Now its 1.4k likes, guess now I can like this comment

[@MiMimUta]

I was so sad when she just never visited since I thought we were friends

[@kneau]

It could be positively effective; make small changes to her appearance (feather extensions, much milder than changing hair color altogether) which indicate she's actually living a life.

[@temporalTechnologist]

one thing i realized about connor is that he was meant to be the most robotic out of the three characters. He performs the best as an android, which makes him seem the most human-like and relatable. Kara and Marcus were meant to be the androids that were 'becoming human' but they wound up turning less and less human-like and more robotic and less relatable. Crazy.

[@CarmenGomez-tb5mt]

Connor for me was the most human-like even after choosing "remain as a machine". His chemistry with Hank, like a father and son was just perfect.

[@SongStudios]

​@@CarmenGomez-tb5mt An argument could be that he's a prototype. He's not a stable version of himself.

[@practicalpisces]

Connor reminds me of a person with autism. I have been around people who behaved similarly to him, and some media portrayals of autism are pretty similar to how he conducts himself.

[@that_weird_mer]

​@@practicalpiscesI agree. I watched a friend play this game recently and it reminded me how much I love Connor as a character and how much he reminds me of myself (as a (probably) autistic person). Also, I wanted to add that most people on the autistic spectrum prefer "autistic"/"autistic person" rather than "person with autism", as you cannot really separate autism from who the person is.

[@n14d14]

yeah, kara especially was just incredibly placid the whole game, not sure if it was the writing or directing or acting but something went wrong

[@X-SPONGED]

7:05 Fun Fact: That loud ahh bitchslap Connor gave Hank in the house scene is completely improvised. Connor was only supposed to lightly slap Hank and then carry him to the bathroom. Dechart decided this was his best (and only) opportunity to slap Mr. Krabs in the face and get away with it, which he ultimately did!

[@degeneratemale5386]

Had to get back at Clancy for selling SpongeBob for only 62 cents

[@Kumorini]

But I thought Mr Krabs overdosed on ketamine

[@annika3265]

The one thing that made thankful for playing DBH is that it introduced me to Bryan, him and Clancy weren't paid enough for this.

[@sassylittleprophet]

Not only that, but Bryan confirmed when livestreaming his playthrough of DBH that Hank slapping Connor (for leaving him to potentially fall off the roof) was improvised by Clancy. He said Clancy winked at him so he knew it was coming, and apparently David Cage thought Clancy hit Bryan for real. These boys really like their improv slaps. And according to Bryan, you have not lived until you've had Clancy Brown throw you against a fake wall 😂😂😂😂

[@psychokiller5959]

Surprised Mr Krabs didn't take away his employee of the month award

[@cocob0l0]

I always got flamed for hating the Alice plot twist. The only argument they ever had was “you didn’t understand the message of the story”. Just imagine Alice on her death bed all elderly, whilst Kara comforts her. The idea that this relationship would involve a parent having to watch their child grow old and have to outlive them. Wasted opportunities. I mean the amount of people who’ve questioned my ability to understand a not-so-difficult message to follow

[@dsfisher]

Literally how the fuck could anyone not only view the twist as somehow good, but think that it goes *with* the message. Motherfuckers, the twist literally was in direct contrast with the message.

[@sephiriza]

Now that I think about it, being a child-like robot also kinda sucks, she'll be a child forever (or, at least, seen as such). And an interesting thing, you could argue Alice never really stepped out of her programming. Maybe, because it's less restricting to begin with, she just has to behave like a kid, not serve or anything specific. But it also means she has no reason to break out of this. Alice is doomed to never truly develop. She's just a tool for Kara's journey.

[@cocob0l0]

@@dsfisher Anything to worship and praise this game that’s sharing a very basic and almost harmful message

[@cocob0l0]

@@sephiriza You’re spot on dude. She was nothing but a plot device. And she will never be able to grow up, mature, or anything like that. She will be frozen in time in this state and that’s quite a sad thing. I literally felt so protective of her but then the second I found out about the twist, all of it vanished. I was so annoyed. There was so much they could have done with this human-Android mother-daughter dynamic seriously. It’s just seriously nice to see that there are others who do agree with the fact that this twist kinda ruined the game for a lot of people.

[@majinally3527]

i personally didn’t care how it was interpreted. i didn’t care about the message it was trying to convey i just thought i was stupid for not realizing it off rip bc it was obvious after replaying it. i loved it but i understand why others didn’t

[@pgrankin1]

I feel like the game really didn't do Hank's character justice. Even though he's an old washed up cop with a tragic past, he's still supposed to be a competent cop who's really good at his job. I mean hell, he was the youngest lieutenant in Detroit history. You'd think a homicide investigator like him would be better at, you know, investigating. But they never really show that and instead just make him the dumb human to contrast Connor's super advanced android intelligence.

[@snakeslife-uroborodjinn790]

Dumb writers can't write people smarter than themselves. Hank's intelligence could only ever be as strong as David Cage's intelligence or lower.

[@PilloTheStar]

The smartest hank ever was in the game was during the pigeon section where connor would uncover a clue and hank would say "that's what I thought".

[@Yayofangamer16]

"I DON'T MAKE GAMES FOR 🍃" - David Cahge. MUH BREADSTICKS. 🥖

[@QuothTheRavenclaw11]

"Argh Jesus Christ." -Mr. Krabs

[@zeroeels8591]

he’s not dumb. they don’t say that. he’s quite clearly depressed and subsequently has lead to his alcoholism. he isn’t dumb. he’s an example of a burnt out cop who faced massive trauma that made him turn to drinking as a way to cope. he may be smart but he just doesnt have the motivation to do the work. it’s not like they out right say he is dumb he is just incapable of mustering energy/ motivation to do what he has to do.

[@leightonpetty4817]

Cage repeatedly insisting his game held no specific political message is still the funniest thing. Him trying to sidestep the poor handling of civil rights matters with “It was never about civil rights, you read into it too much!” If you have a black woman say “Man this just like racism”, I think it’s possible that there might just be a theme in there somewhere

[@unimpartialobserver]

Putting the androids in the back of the bus? Complete coincidence.

[@kingp260]

Bro literally put concentration camps in his game and then claimed there was no political message 😂

[@broomhilder]

@@kingp260even the in-game press conference with the US President addressed this, bringing up “troubling memories in human history” and the Pres says “nuh-uh. Not the same. We’re destroying machines.” With words used throughout in game conversation like “camps” and “interned,” logically a person will make the real-world connection right away.

[@dearleader7623]

This was back in the time when gamers pissed their pants and whined about any political messaging in games. For example, the 2019 Modern Warfare reboot was marketed by the game devs as "not" political, even when it's still pro-British/American police state propaganda with heavy emphasis on stoic military guys who should have full discretion to "get their hands dirty, and the world stays clean." The late 2010s was a stupid time where implementation of political messaging was like walking on eggshells, and with DBH having been in development for over 5 years before its release, David Cage probably didn't anticipate the political climate of the games industry and he retroactively labeled the game as "not all that political" to save his ass from being any more controversial than he ended up being.

[@Neremworld]

@@dearleader7623 Well, you mean, implementation of political messaging that wasn't right-wing. A LGBT or non-white man? EXTREMELY political. White man? As apolitical as it gets.

[@phoenixlmao]

kara used to be my favorite character when i was young, but even then, i still hated how they revealed alice to be an android. like sure, i guess the signs WERE there, but it was still pretty cheap. the idea of an android mother taking care of a human daughter that was saved from an abusive father just had a level of impact the reveal completely took away :/

[@randunker]

I think the reveal happened to make Todd's story make actual sense

[@karolinne9116]

@@randunker Even if so, sacrificing the story of one of the main characters for a guy that is barely a secondary character is not a smart move.

[@Gafafsg]

I think the point of the twist is to ask if humans and androids are really any different. Does it matter? If Alice can pass as human, what really changes if she’s actually an android? After all, they’re all conscious, able to feel and love. It’s not a perfectly executed twist, but I don’t think most people understood the point, because they like the superficial “robot mom and human child” idea more than they actually care about the ideas the game tries to express.

[@showbizstudios655]

@@randunker its an attempt to make the abusive, drug-addicted father more sympathetic.

[@crreamuu]

Yeah that was the biggest mistake they made. There was no actual purpose of making her an android

[@lalamnmgirl]

My biggest issue is that when they released their Kara short cinematic nearly a decade ago she was a very dynamic character. In the game she feels so flat and lifeless in comparison.

[@unfoundpump]

I had literally been searching for the exact cinematic for so long, and I didn’t even remember the name. I just knew it was about an Android who was alive and it became a game, your comment not only made me connect DBH and the short, it also made me find it again, so thank you.

[@Troll_vs.]

To be fair if I remember that was just a tech demo. So they apparently said fuck an actual character

[@jiyama]

yeah i remember getting goosebumps with the ps3 tech demo of kara

[@henriquebastosbernardoni3630]

Not to say disposable. I'm really pissed how her dying or living bears no weight whatsoever to the main revolution conflict. Also, if you wanna get angrier there's the theory that rA9 is the protagonist of that tech demo cinematic, so, you know, maybe Kara should be the leader of the revolution.

[@The_Obsessed]

Man you didn't have to put decade in there, making me feel old as hell.

[@pommipomm]

i honestly wish it was just Connor and Hank's story throughout the whole game. i tried so hard to care about Kara's, but the reveal about Alice really ruined it for me. Markus.... was Markus.

[@RanMouri82]

The Alice twist was bizarre and many players called it early. Nobody cared about it, either, and were left wondering whether we were supposed to care. It reminds me that David Cage, like Tommy Wiseau, doesn't really understand people.

[@Journey_to_who_knows]

I felt the same, should have gone with the buddy cop tale

[@koatam]

If you like that kind of story. Check out Isaac Asimov's Robot series. It was likely the inspiration for this game. Buddy cop duo where a police detective that hates robots is teamed up with an Android.

[@howard4558]

I actually liked the Kara story, but the Markus storyline always bored me personally. Connor story was hit and miss for me

[@quinnholloway5400]

Markus was trying to be Robot Jesus, MLK, Malcolm X, and a shit ton of civil rights leaders and good diecent people that March or work to spread good messages But he's also a massive hypocrite and goes overboard

[@FrozenHeavenlyIce]

If Alice were a human and she and Kara were to try to cross the border, there could've also been the chance for an appeal to emotion to work better, especially depending on the public opinion on androids. The officer could have scanned Kara and tell she's not human but see that Alice is, which could go one of two (broad) ways: 1) The officer, if public opinion is high, can see for himself that androids are capable of caring for humans like humans can care for each other. This allows for Kara and Alice to pass through, with the guard giving, like, I dunno, a knowing nod towards Kara, showing off that he knows what's up and is letting it pass. 2) The officer, if public opinion is hostile, can interpret Kara being a guardian/mother-figure to Alice as this evil deviant android taking a human child hostage to escape from her numerous crimes, and a bad ending of some sort is achieved. An example of which could be one where police officers, in trying to detain/"kill" Kara, accidentally kills Alice. That could show off how unbridled hate can damage any and everything, even the people that need the most protection. Either of them could have tied into the theme of humanity and being able to - or even failing to - recognize it in others. Instead we have the fridge horror of a robot who is either unwilling or genuinely unABLE to ever NOT act like, think like, and feel the needs of a human child, as everyone around them doesn't do anything to help them grow beyond that (since the narrative won't acknowledge it). Cool!

[@solmarcet6157]

Imagine how HEARTBREAKING a scene where the authorities kill Kara and grab Alice, assuring her that everything's fine, she's safe now, they'll help her get to her family - whilst having just murdered it in front of her - be. An ending where Alice gets adopted by a loving human family that means the absolute best, and her being diagnosed (it's not an actual medical diagnosis, but you know what I mean) with Stockholm syndrome because she either mourns Kara or - in an ending where she didn't actually see her die - keeps asking for her. Maybe even thinking she just abandoned her - even though the Kara she knew would never do that.

[@thesapphireone]

An idea I’ve came up with is two options for Kara and Alice crossing the border, but there’s still being some kind of hard choice to make. The first one could be that if the the public opinion is positive, while Kara and Alice and their friends can live in Canada, since change doesn’t miraculously happen overnight, or because of some new fictional Canadian laws in the game, Kara, Alice and their friends will have to live illegally as refugees, and a later scene shows them in a apartment that isn’t very well put together, as the two try to put a happy front, they both know that they’ll need to work harder to survive and get any potential citizenship. The second could be that rather than have Kara/Markus die so Alice and Markus can essentially trick the officer, their deaths would be rewritten, since what was stopping them from double checking that Alice wasn’t human or any other procedures? If the aforementioned positive outcome happens, the officer, after testing Kara and Alice on their background, families, etc, and would empathise with them and the ending above would happen, but if it’s negative or if they fail to answer the questions truthfully, the security guards arrive to take them away, and while running away to get to a bus, the player has to pick who stays behind to sacrifice themselves, if it’s Kara, she’ll say a brief goodbye to Alice and Markus, then trick the guards into chasing and then killing her to buy them time to get on, while Markus tries to comfort Alice as they ride the bus and he’s forced to work in a degrading job, (ie, a cook, garbageman,), you name it, to provide for her, while if you pick Markus to be sacrificed, he’ll restrain one of the guards from grabbing Alice as she climbs onboard, but get shot dead for it, as Kara and Alice decide to live in solitude in the wilderness, and try to live out a happy, if isolated life.

[@tyrian522]

Connor and Hank absolutely carried this game. Seeing Connor slowly gain more and more human reactions and phrasing makes me so happy. I wasn’t the biggest fan of Markus and Kara’s stories- but *Connor’s* i adored. the little cutscene you can get of Connor and Hank in the all lives saved ending actually made me tear up!

[@thevaldis1167]

Markus also did some heavy lifting for Kara's story!

[@jeeves903]

@@thevaldis1167 not really, markus story was mid at best, and karas was universally ignored for how bland it was

[@bevanmcnicholl2525]

No. Both Connor and Hanks writing drop halfway through the game from bad to even worse

[@a.k8185]

@@bevanmcnicholl2525 Still the best part of the game.

[@Exel3nce]

@@bevanmcnicholl2525 maybe, and yet its the best part

[@_insomniac_423]

Reminder: If David Cage didn’t have people to keep him in check for Detroit, the story would have been several times worse than what it already was.

[@chiamrandall8188]

I’m scared to ask how.

[@ГринГрин-х7к]

@@chiamrandall8188 probably rape scene with Kara

[@chiamrandall8188]

@@thisismyusernow I can legitimately see all that happening.

[@RowBlanka]

@@ГринГрин-х7к with Kara or someone else, that topic could have been so much more authentic and hard hittin'.

[@_insomniac_423]

@@chiamrandall8188 It would probably have a scene similar to the Detroit Tech Demo, but way more sleazy.

[@larrylaffer3246]

Honestly this game should've just doubled down on the Hank and Connor storyline. It could've dug deeper into Connor's psychology and drive to "Become Human". Facing whatever comes along the way.

[@johndoe5432]

I just wonder if there's any hope for a standalone Hank & Connor game, that'd be amazing... but it'll probably never happen. :(

[@pgrankin1]

Connor is the only android we ever saw actually have a journey to "become human." Everyone else just deviated immediately at the beginning of the story.

[@larrylaffer3246]

@@pgrankin1 Yeah. I mean they should've just taken the whole "deviant" aspect out entirely. Instead focusing on androids naturally gaining sentience and their struggle to be taken seriously. They still could've had the civil rights movement thing just had it as a slower burn. More Old Star Trek or Twilight Zone-esque philosophy type scenarios less BLM allegories. Because that's what I want to think about in my science fiction, film noir video games. Not cool, complex debates that take time to think about, ones you can really roll around in you mouth. Ones that make you feel, wow I really learned something today.

[@lunar_proxy]

connor and hank are definitely the most interesting and fleshed out characters in the entire game. connor struggled with his emotions and thoughts, he was conflicted, he _grew_ and learned, he _did_ become (the most) human. everyone else just randomly woke up one day and said "actually? i'm alive", connor had to WORK to get there.

[@larrylaffer3246]

@@lunar_proxy Connor Number 5 is Alive!

[@ashmanchester2611]

Really says alot that the best part of the game ( the chemistry between Conor and Hank) only happened because they didn't listen to David Cages directions.

[@Mr_Mistah]

Exactly! Like that's not good. And also the fact that they're the community's most favorite characters bar none. It just shows how atrocious the writing and story is for Marcus and Kara/Alice who are really just one big civil rights allegory

[@youtube-kit9450]

Almost like David Cage is a talentless hack and a witless provocateur or something.

[@CompSomAnichi]

@@Mr_Mistah what makes it funnier is that the improv between Hank and Conmor werent even plot breaking Like the punch and the wink was them interpreting their characters

[@sadblob4577]

Im someone who doesn’t really give much thought into stories after I see them, if I like it I like it and if I don’t I don’t, I move on. But it was so blatantly obvious to me how much things were forced, especially in Markus and Kara’s routes.

[@Sosodaisies]

You doushes. Stop acting like all of the oppression the androids face is only supposed to represent one group of people. The androids are people who demand liberty because they are oppressed and abused. Any group facing those problems will, of course want liberty.

[@bichiAllen]

Hank and Connor really carried this entire game

[@CEO0FMILFS]

I would of love a game just about them.

[@berrimu]

@@CEO0FMILFS Yes, they were way more interesting than the android vs human war

[@PulseAnimations878]

@Sakusen ☀🖑 Kara arc kinda sucked imo since the only development it felt like she got was being even more of a parent. Where the Conner arc was about man and machine bonding with Conner growing into a deviant and making his own choices. And the Markus arc started good but kinda fell flat 3/4 into it.

[@PeruvianPotato]

@@CEO0FMILFS The game would've honestly been so much better if it just focused on Connor and Hank's story

[@PulseAnimations878]

@Sakusen ☀🖑 well yea but she already was one and she got no development outside of it

[@mercaius]

I don't know if it's actually a flaw of storytelling, but one thing I didn't like about Detroit was how it glazes over the motivations of the anti-android movement. They mention a 35% unemployment rate -- that's a lot of people being left behind because of automation. But this population feels marginalized and even villainized in favor of the android slavery story.

[@insertwittyname5649]

That's what I was thinking. There's also a lot of android doctors which implies they're taking a lot of high-paying jobs. Maybe that's why there aren't a ton of androids bought compared to human population. People just can't afford it because their jobs are either crappy or they have no job at all. It could be they can barely feed their own family. No wonder they want androids gone. If androids were limited to housekeeping rather than taking jobs I don't think the issue would be as bad.

[@rouxzes]

I feel like a better written game about robo rights would explore the anti-android movement more seriously. Like even go into the differences in thought of the movement, cuz a movement that large could never be ideologically consistent. There would be socialist antis who blame the corps/hospitals/government for not careing about the human effects of the layoffs and the people who are already in the game, the ones who blame the bots, and all manner in between. Like the world is going through unemployment 10% higher than the great depression and we get NOTHING of that in game??????? no focus AT ALL??????? ok.

[@whatteamwildcats4033]

Also I'm not too sure about this as I haven't played the game, but does the story ever acknowledge like racism and oppression real people, who don't have the option of powering off their abilities to feel, may end facing so the race of tomagachi's can feel like real people

[@chattycatty3336]

also don't forget that relationships are falling apart due to androids. We see many times that the birth rate is down a lot and that men are leaving women because androids are "more appealing" and "dont want to have a conversation after sex" i feel like that would cause a lot of issues as well

[@damkylan3]

@@whatteamwildcats4033 Definitely not. Rose even talks about racism in a sort of past tense. “My people WERE made to feel...” This game is the embodiment of that meme where some idiot says racism was ended by Martin Luther King’s speech and the man who killed him was the very last racist. Either that, or the human race finally banded together by the year 2038 so they could be mean to robots.

[@shroomfruit345]

Some people are saying that Alice’s reveal as an android took away all the impact of Kara’s story, and while I agree, I must admit that that reveal was one of the most “oh. ok then, moving on…” moments I’ve ever experienced.

[@crypt5129]

That's the point of the twist. It's supposed to show that it doesn't really matter, because androids are people. It doesn't really matter, so you just move on

[@Michelle-pd3ke]

Yeah I was like "oh damn well ok she's still a kid anyways it doesn't matter"

[@robogreek3157]

Spoiler alert would of been the right thing to do... some people just want opinions on the game in comments

[@thefordlord9893]

Prolly shouldn't look in the comment section of a video about a game/series you haven't finished experiencing.@@robogreek3157

[@zuccero23]

@@robogreek3157 the video contained this exact point

[@plantemor]

David Cage's problem is that he's too full of himself to make anything deeper than a puddle. He is as fake deep as they come because his ego comes before delivering a worthwhile story to the audience.

[@pokeman5000]

In all honesty ALOT of art is self indulgent. Because the artist is usually trying to convey something within the art itself. Take a look around and you'll see many artists have absolutely HUGE egos, especially if their work sells. The issue is that this dude just doesn't have the chops or the track record to really sell it. You either have to be famous or infamous to really be allowed to indulge in egotism and he isn't. "Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more. It is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."

[@zdenda66alorddandas86]

@@pokeman5000 How does the quote relate to what you wrote ? Just curious cause I don't understand.

[@pokeman5000]

@@zdenda66alorddandas86 Mostly a vanity thing. In the play its when Macbeth is pretty much acknowledging the cost and utter pointlessness of his endeavors. I also felt David Cage fits the idiot full of sound and fury signifying nothing. The game also being his hour upon the stage of relevance. Also the quotes pretty cool and mainly what came to mind when replying to the comment lel.

[@keshagriffin3375]

Ok

[@WobblesandBean]

But....but, _peeexels equal emotionnnns!_

[@reaperz5677]

The Alice "Twist" was SOOOOOOOOOOO FUCKING HILARIOUS because it changed literally NOTHING in the story. Like there are always reviewers that say "you could remove X thing and it wouldn't change a thing", and it's usually exaggerated, but in this situation, it's SO forced that exactly 0 of consequence would change. It's just hilarious that a sizeable portion of the internet thinks this is a good game/story, it really is.

[@XHdot23]

Well, if you remove it the entire camp level would turn out... odd, at the bare minimum.

[@No.no_body]

@@XHdot23 then remove the camp level, it's not interesting anyway

[@Nathan-js8yf]

What's worse and something that I'm surprised that wasn't brought up in the video is that in the first Kara/Alice chapter you can find a drawing Alice made where she's being hit or something and she has red blood. Why the hell would an android draw herself with red blood?

[@thatitalianlameguy2235]

@@Nathan-js8yf she wants to BECOME HOOMAN

[@zxylo786]

@@No.no_body But concentration camp symbolism is important in our game because...

[@ChillyChief612]

Loved Connor's parts wish he had a full game with the detective mechanic where you can succeed, fail, or die. I thought Kara's was alright except for Alice being a robo that was the dumbest most pointless twist if she was still a human that would support the themes more. Absolutely Hated Markus's story was ruined by action scenes and the godamn finding Jericho mission holy shit.

[@RanMouri82]

Detroit was arguably the most reined-in Cage game. He usually starts with police procedural, mixes in unnecessary drama and flat romance, and then spirals out of control into the supernatural until your main character becomes a space wizard clone diety. So in Detroit, Connor became primarily police procedural, Kara was awkward family drama, and Markus was space wizard god. No wonder Connor's story resonated the most with players.

[@kiyopawn]

Markus's story and conversion ability is complete trash. Conversion can be done but if it causes like contradicitions in the mind of an android. Easy example: "If a human asks an android to kill them but if there is a rule to protect the human that bought you, then the android can go deviant. Then if a deviant can do a similar thing to another android, then that should work. A way a deviant can do it, is if the deviant can find a way to break a rule in another android's system.

[@erikdaniels0n]

If they had made a game that was basically LA Noire with an android, I actually think it could have been amazing

[@jamerthegamer13]

Absolutely true basically my opinions too

[@rat7791]

THE FINDING JERICHO MISSION IS ABISMAL, I D O AGREE

[@regrettispaghetti9390]

I think the reason that Bad Connor didn’t know Cole’s name is because it was irrelevant to the investigation, the same with Sumo’s name. Neither of those things would help them solve the deviant cases, so it most likely just wouldn’t download that information. But still, having Good Connor turn the androids would’ve been a better solution.

[@joegaddy2030]

That dosnet make sense tho. Connor has remembered plenty of things that weren't relevant to the investigation.

[@calscaddy]

The thing that convinced Hank was Connor’s explanation and in depth look into why Hank hates androids. I just wish Connor had brought up the converting androids solution and have Hank shut it down cause he doesn’t know if bad Connor can also convert androids.

[@Alex_34251]

I didnt even had that scene, i chose to keep being a machine tbh

[@X-SPONGED]

Bad Connor has access to The Entire Detroit Database aswell as Good Connor's Memory Bank. He would 100% know Cole and His Backstory.

[@lycantabris]

@@X-SPONGED But he wouldn't *empathize* like Connor does. Hank likes it when Connor shows empathy, and while Bad Connor may know the facts, he isn't capable of putting himself in Hank's shoes and really understanding why Hank hurts so much. It's not the kid's name or the history, it's the feelings there.

[@Light-ro5bp]

The way they compared androids to every single minority is unbelievable “Guys these cold, lifeless robots have emotions too! Just like black people 🥺”

[@yamaneru6760]

LMAO

[@secritiveHalo]

I don't think they realize how insulting it is.

[@oh-not-the-bees7872]

I dont think that was the intent. The androids are stand ins for any person affected by adversity, including the lgbtq community and the handicapped.

[@rubyy.7374]

@@oh-not-the-bees7872 Yeah, and robots specifically made to be house-servants being that stand-in is pretty… Odd, isn’t it?

[@hydra4370]

@@oh-not-the-bees7872 yeah, I think the allusions were obvious and I don't think they intended to be or are offensive. Like, the robotic characteristics aren't what they want us to take focus on, it's the dehumanization and refusal to acknowledge the rights of sentient beings... I won't pretend like the takeaway isn't essentially "racism bad", but most "sentient non humans VS oppressive jerk humans" stories end this way because that's one of the many reasonable morals you can extract.

[@Winasaurus]

Hilarious line in the game is Markus saying "You're not free, you're just slaves to a new master, your own fear" (paraphrased) in Jericho. Then he goes out and "frees" a bunch of androids to do exactly what he says and die for him.

[@Cerise__]

Bro I think you just described the USA's history

[@momentsofflight]

i wish we saw more androids choosing to remain in their roles after becoming sentient, like carl's new android after markus leaves. some people seemed to actually treat their androids well, so its sad that that's never explored.

[@JZStudiosonline]

In the words of Leslie Nielson, "Ah, yes. A Jewish holiday, mazeltov!"

[@andreseh87]

Kind of an L with your comment.

[@Winasaurus]

@@andreseh87 The only L here is detroit fans desperately trying to act like the game is good.

[@moricree5154]

I never understood why tf child androids would even exist. Like fr in real life there would be no none creepy way to own such a thing. It's just hella weird

[@slasherlovingay2488]

Uhhh... wanting to adopt a child. 🤨

[@cosmok-1367]

@@slasherlovingay2488 Okay, but that still doesn't make any sense because... they're androids. They're not going to develop the same as a human child, meaning they're not going to need to go to school, expierence biologocial growths, things actual human children would go through. And because they're androids, they are going to stay the exact same age. Unless the game puts in the lore that they can be taken to a shop and be 'upgraded' so they can grow up, but even if that was the case, they;re not going to have a human life, they'll always be in some sort of service as a slave or servant, because that's the life an android would have in this world.

[@moricree5154]

@@slasherlovingay2488 well... adopt a child then?

[@Fiend-ish]

@@slasherlovingay2488 i know its been a year but this is just a funny thing to say

[@bisexualsmoothtalker1270]

I actually forgot the twist lol. Shows how impactful it was.

[@Aphelia.]

Happy bi week my fellow men and women enjoyer

[@bisexualsmoothtalker1270]

@@Aphelia. Yay! You too!

[@bbygirl4168]

@@Aphelia. is it bi week? Fuck yeah

[@Desparil]

Oh no, I made ze bad game

[@peprigo9259]

Right. My brothers and I watched coryxkenshin's playthrough, and I had watched the ending alone. When Alice was shown to be a robot I audibly said, "welp...", walked into my brothers room and said, "Alice is an android." And they looked at me super unamused. The one closer to my age said, "Oh." And looked back down at his phone and the younger one said "Okay, get out." Then they watched the ending later with straight faces. They only ever laughed or showed emotion when Cory told a joke. Then later, I asked, "Can you believe that ending?" To which which youngest brother said, "What ending?" So yeah. Super forgettable. I personally lost a bunch of respect for the game after that half baked, unseasoned, dry twist. They might as well have gotten the script from M. Night Shyamalan. Would've been the exact same with maybe a little more emphasis on the wokeness.

[@lindthechaoticheretic8708]

You forgot one very important thing... The Cyberlife ending. The ending where it is revealed that deviancy is pre programmed so that the androids would be destroyed and then replaced by new ones to insure that people keep buying newer ones. This one ending either completely ruins the message that machines are alive, or it is meant to say that the true message all along is that no matter how convincing they act, androids are not alive and never will be.

[@Uhshawdude]

Huh, so there isn’t any evidence androids have and inner life or experiences. Just inputs and outputs. That ending existing completely ruins any other ending by removing the ambiguity around android consciousness. Thats also a stupid plan. Who would buy a new android if their first one tried to kill them?

[@ejm1225]

So, it's essentially a form of planned obsolescence, just like Apple with their iPhones, or probably Nintendo with their Switch controllers.

[@lindthechaoticheretic8708]

@@ejm1225 Yup.

[@johnwotek3816]

"The ending where it is revealed that deviancy is pre programmed so that the androids would be destroyed and then replaced by new ones to insure that people keep buying newer ones." Now that's some very dumb concept... a company with such a such a spectaculary defective product would get such bad PR they would simply crash very hard. It'd take someone very dumb to try something like that, just so they could sell the same product again.

[@lindthechaoticheretic8708]

@@johnwotek3816 Remember when android phones were violently exploding and killing people... You'd be amazed how stupid people can be and what they're willing to overlook.

[@linop2]

I honestly thought the whole thing with Markus was that he was just mind-controlling the ones he turned. They never seemed free whenever he sparked their deviancy. The only ones who looked like they had actual free will were the ones who turned on their own. Connor's mass turning act for one ending also had this effect.

[@quinnholloway5400]

So Markus is a hypocrite effectively

[@paigemosher8697]

@@quinnholloway5400 See, now that would have been a really interesting concept to explore. It's a shame Cage either didn't catch on to that idea or refused to implement it because it would fly in the face of the message he wanted to send.

[@madidason3574]

@@paigemosher8697 Right, but Marcus wasn't mind-controlling the ones he turned and he wasn't a hypocrite-regardless of what miss-communication the story-telling may have given off. Cage couldn't have explored the effects of a game implementation that didn't actually exist.

[@gorg6151]

@@madidason3574 The robots the Marcus turn act like a hive mind and obey his orders, almost as if he DID enslave them intentionally or not

[@MartyMusic777]

@@gorg6151 I think it was just bad writing, tbh.

[@owleeve2098]

It's crazy, I've read fanfictions OF Detroit: Become Human that actually added philosophical points to the narrative. I remember one for example that went with the idea of "Wouldn't it be better if everyone was an android? If we copied ourselves into an android's body, since they are superior to us, it would only bring the dawn of a better world, right?" and then the story took this idea and decided to show us how much existential dread that would bring to just be a copy, not knowing if you're still this person or not (a bit in a SOMA fashion) It's just crazy to me that David Cage was sitting on something, on a mountain of possibilities and just... didn't do anything new with it. It really infuriates me. I like Detroit: Become Human (mostly for Connor and Hank's dynamic to be completely frank and for Kara until Alice's true nature was revealed) but really, the game itself is not that incredible. The fandom is somehow able to make way more compelling stories than the one in the game (though I could say that for all fandoms. There are so many incredible authors in fandoms just waiting to have their work read) Edit: For anyone looking for the fanfic in question, it's called "Charon" by Vapewraith on Archive Of Our Own!

[@lavender_coast]

Do you happen to have a link to the fanfic?

[@ejm1225]

Kind of like how the Miraculous Ladybug fandom creates fan content that actually presents more depth into many other characters and concepts (like the kwami and the miraculous charms) than what was presented in the actual show.

[@SomeGuy1234X]

Everyone should have been human except Conner, that would have been a better game.

[@d.j.mulcahy1657]

That sounds legitimately incredible. There were so many opportunities for Cage to explore deep philosophy, but he squandered that potential for the sake of a muddled allegory. Do you remember what the title of that fanfic was?

[@anuraagkumar978]

@@ejm1225 Ladybug fanfics make me forget how terrible the show is.

[@brokenlegs8431]

The androids were never androids, literally human in every way, they even forgot that they're not supposed to feel pain and flinch at getting punched. Conner gets winded from getting punched in the gut. This game has subtlety in the same way to that a brick to the head has subtlety. Androids don't think or feel any different from a person and even if that's the whole point then it just simply becomes deeply derivative by nature. People have been asking whether robots dream of electric sheep for a long time. The allusions to racism would have been relevant in 1950, back of the bus bad and slavery bad aint exactly groundbreaking in the modern era.

[@rhondahoward8025]

For real! I remember thinking that Connor shouldn't have flinched from getting punched by the "mean human". The guy should've just broke his hand trying to punch a machine.

[@twinblade273]

Connor (Deviant): *Is able to out shoot and kill multiple trained soldiers on multiple occasions* Connor (Machine): *Can't shoot deviants in the legs despite it being significantly more logical to incapacitate them for future questioning and analysis* Machine path Connor had so much potential if they had written and directed to him to be more calculating and efficient. He would have basically countered the whole "androids are equal to humans" by simply exceeding and outperforming his human compatriots with laser focus and strategy towards the mission, but instead they oversimplify Connor's decisions to basically "Do I kill android or no?". Human lives are worth more to him because he is living(?) proof that androids are readily replaceable, but this aspect is marred by the fact that all the times you sacrifice Connor are considered "fail states". I feel like if the player already had enough evidence already to find Jericho on their own they should be able to refuse to kill Chloe on the grounds that it would be pointless for Kamski to tell you something you can already figure out and there's no guarantee as a human he'd hold his end of the bargain. Instead of feeling remorse for other androids, Machine Connor's route should've focused on the conflict between his directive to stop the deviants at any cost and his secondary objective to assist and protect Hank and humanity as a whole. As it stands, there's an inherent bias in Connor's actions towards the deviant path. I don't mind Bryan Dechart adding a bit of fanservice here and there, but it should be noted that he was originally supposed to act a bit more "emotionless and robotic" in some scenes and it kind of adds to that bias unfortunately.

[@lindylou538]

@@twinblade273 am amazing scene for cold and efficient Conner would of been on the protest instead of Conner being in the frontlines they would be in the back controlling everything This could of been a great faction building moment for the machine showing how instead of the deviants being a un-uniofied rabble who are just running around and burning buildings the machines are in The back truly controlling the humans it would show the difference between the machines and deviants Would you rather be a rabble fighting for justice through the medium of violence,death and destruction or would you be a coordinated machine carrying out every process with utmost efficiency but keeping a ideology with dire consequences for another side (This was just a big long winded way of me saying I like cold and calculated robotic villans)

[@fanaticaH]

I think there's still ways to talk new things with a robot story, not necessarily everything has been talked about. But let's just say a bunch of other robot stories have more groundbreaking analysis of humanity than Detroit Become Human.

[@fanaticaH]

For example you mentioned "Do Androids dream of electric sheep?", which was loosely adapted into "Blade Runner". I think the book is even more clear about the test for finding androids being super ableist, as is said most people suffering from mental illness wouldn't pass the test. And in general is just a simple way to talk about how certain people would dehumanize others just to pass certain laws to kill them. I think it's specially notorious because this is a post World War 3 dystopian society where everyone is leaving to space colonies because the earth is wrecked. And somehow they passed a law which stated people who don't pass the android test can't not go to the colonies (which wouldn't be free either, Decker is staying for a few months because he's saving to get a nice house in the colonies and apparently keeping up with the "android plague" is a job people don't really want). Other people on the book are so dependant on technology that they don't feel for themselves, so I can't even say they're so different with androids either. Decker's wife isn't really a big character but I think her life could constitute a Black Mirror episode. Most animals on Earth have gone extinct because of the radiation caused by WW3, but people still want to to show off so they buy realistic animal androids to make it seem they have the money to have exotic pets. This androids are so realistic they would mimic needs like eating or pooping. Also they are coded to get randomly sick so you need to take them to a technician whom disguises as a veterinary to make them better. Decker's wife decided to but a sheep she needs to shear sometimes and that's a reference to the title. Everyone thinks they fool others with their android animals but that the neighbor's ones look too fake. Also there's some people who promise to sell you real animals, but it's mostly a scam (the whole book it isn't clear if there even are animals on the planet at all). Also, Decker's wife has a brain implant, which helps her see things right in her head but also control her emotions with a simple remote. She can potentially be happy all the time and don't feel pain at all, but one big scene on the book constitutes on her choosing to feel sad because being happy all the time was starting to feel empty or fake. Also she didn't seem to have any friends and everyone in general seemed like shut ins, they were all in their roofs tending their android animals to pretend in front of their neighbors. There was a lot of excerpts about a bunch of things about the city, but nothing that noted a real culture, probably because even their religion/spirituality was controlled by the implant probably everyone had (the book ultimately leads to a weird gnostic thing where it seems Decker found true illumination so take it as you will).

[@arturoaguilar6002]

I thought the biggest dumb twist in the story was that the androids were designed to become deviants intentionally by the big corp that created them. I'm not kidding, that's in the game.

[@BrynnBeverly]

but it's like...half-baked. it's not explicitly stated or in certain run throughs barely implied!

[@jillreyerma7592]

@@BrynnBeverly Yeah, the idea could have been really interesting if they had actually bothered to explore it.

[@jajie-yl4hu]

When was this revealed?

[@X-SPONGED]

@@jajie-yl4hu Amanda or Kamski Connor becomes deviant leader or kill all end

[@touchingisjustthefirststep]

More profit i guess LUL

[@whynotanyting]

It would be interesting to see some deviants even go against the rebellion, continue living their current lives, or berate Markus for liberating them just to become another bullet shield.

[@Yodah97]

Yep! I mean all these movements in real life always had a fair bit of inner conflict, as people disagreed on what course to take and how far to go. As the video states, the fact that the robots seem to never disagree with one another just makes them seem more robotic. Those don't strike me as sentient beings with free-will and personal motivations. What about all the robots that cared for old ladies, loved them, and just wanted to go home and make sure they are ok?

[@silentecho92able]

@@Yodah97 Yes i felt the same way playing the game a 2nd time arounds some years back, if what they are conveying here is these robots have "freewill" would it make more sense if these robots began to have the same conflicts as human in their inner circle more often. An Markus not understanding and learning that like humans one person who does not hold the same ideas as your own you will conflict with one another. Its like say a child saying he wants too play jump rope with his friends, but they instead want to play tag and this frustrates the child cause the child does not understand why his friends don't wanna play jump rope and nothing the child can do to change their minds. I think say this kind of conflict in Markus group would fit well with him actually trying to learn to be human and trying to adapt but failing to "Be Human". As it ain't something simple he had pictured in his mind and finding out like human society his perfect vision for his people ain't entirely perfect as it seems.

[@Yodah97]

@@silentecho92able that could have been a whole game right there. This chosen robot who can give other robots free will having to deal with the consequences of that free will. I think one of the reasons this game struggles to have nuance is because it's basically three games stitched together. If all that writing work had gone into just one character/storyline... Oh well.

[@silentecho92able]

​@@Yodah97 Yeah truth be told when i replayed the game multiple times. An you start too see the game trying to hammer home literal "Robot MLK". But fails at giving it out with each replay you start to see through the lines of the story and say this makes no sense. The sort of robots fighting too be free, blurs when you introduce Markus being able too and i quote "Free them", and quite literally enslave them under his will. Cause he's practically become Deviant prime or whatever. I think if this story focus more on Markus trying to discover to be human. An have Connor be the polar opposite of wanting too remain a complaint robot would make more sense, if the story is written with this in mind.

[@notmocka]

OMG it was so EASY to fix the "Do you release me, Chloe?" Make HER WANT TO STAY, BECAUSE YOU GAVE HER THE CHOICE TO GO Its the first grandma's tale we hear, if you love something, set it free! So it comes back on its own terms!

[@FlynnTheRedhead]

But… she wants to leave? That grandma’s tale you’re talking about (which I’ve never heard) just seems like you’re manipulating the other, not actually wanting to give her the freedom of choice, but to give it in order to get her to stay, your preferred outcome. I don’t know, seems manipulative

[@notmocka]

@@FlynnTheRedhead Her wanting to leave could be a test, plis she could come back and be excused as a visit or a favor for a friend Multiple options if someone on dev had cared enough

[@FlynnTheRedhead]

@@notmocka “if someone on the dev team had cared enough” jesus calm down. It’s an artistic decision to have her leave. You can get a Chloe back later if you want, but I think it’s a powerful moment. Having you grow closer to this person you greet everytime you open the game only to have her leave at the end if you decide to let her go. Why are you so pissed off about it?

[@notmocka]

@@FlynnTheRedhead going against the whole woke point in a 60 hour game IS not caring about it imo, and go tone police somewhere else

[@FlynnTheRedhead]

@@notmocka Tone police? What? Again, why do you care so much about it?

[@RanMouri82]

The dumb twist made forced conflict for Kara. We're told she's been suppressing her awareness of Alice, but never shown why, just told that it upsets her. And then *we* are asked if *we* care when we have no skin in this game.

[@kien9350]

YES! THIS! I don't understand how do people get emotional with that scene. It's make no sense for the character. Oh she is a robot like you, so what? what kind of a twist conflict is that? Kara literally just say she doesn't care few minute before that scene. It go from love between human and robot to love between robot. shouldn't the other way around make it more of a twist that challenge her love?

[@janaelovely4010]

@@kien9350 ohhh. Alice being perceived as a robot but then revealed as human sounds really interesting! Not sure how they would pulled it off but that's a cool idea

[@kien9350]

@@janaelovely4010 Heck I thinks a playable human out of the 3 would be cool. An old woman who live disconnect from technology because of some bad trauma making her hate android. But once day she found a little girl lost, the old woman let's the girl stay for a while and after sometimes the old women feel happy again. Then through some event she found out Alice is an android all along, would she feel manipulated because this is an android designed for people like her or would she accept that Alice is just as human as her. I'm no writer, but with this kind of plot the twist would work better. Kara and Alice was a nice middle ground between Connor(Human side) and Markus(Android side) until the twist ruin it.

[@louise4152]

@@kien9350 That actually sounds really interesting!

[@mcplumpkin6191]

@@kien9350 better claim it before someone steals this idea!

[@Hi-yk4ei]

honestly I loved this game, I love that every single choice you make is important and I absolutely LOVE Connor and Hank, it's really immersive and one of the best games I have played, but that Alice plot-twist was absolutely unncecessary ngl

[@huismands]

Using background music from NieR:Automata, a game that ACTUALLY has something to say and does so incredibly competently, is such a slap in the face to David Cage. I love it.

[@doyoulikejazz9516]

god I love nier

[@Desparil]

Oh no, I made ze bad game

[@jackedfrost]

I use to think the message in Detroit was great then I played Automata and I quickly changed my mind

[@Ttegegg]

Androids that cheap

[@woebegoneclown]

Every time Yoko Taro makes any fucking game, the endings make me cry and shit my pants

[@darksentinel082]

It’s so funny that the moment you mentioned a bad twist I knew IMMEDIATELY what you meant

[@shadowdroid776]

A good idea they could have done is making Alice a new form of android, where they can age and eat like humans do for parents that couldn't have kids. It would catch Kara off guard because she's a brand new model no one knows of yet, it would catch the player off guard, and even Alice would be terrified since she never knew. Boom. Massive existential crisis on what life is and does it hold meaning once you realize you're not real.

[@RetroIsaac]

Okay but why would Todd have one? He can barely afford his home.

[@sweetnote.]

@@RetroIsaac he stole her from her real parents

[@RetroIsaac]

@@sweetnote. why?

[@shadowdroid776]

@@RetroIsaac could be what a lot of people do: have kids when they cannot provide or afford children. He saved up to just have one kid, but lives in squalor due to barely scraping by with now two mouths to feed.

[@RetroIsaac]

@@shadowdroid776 but it's a robot kid?! Most kids kind happen on accident. You don't just accidentally buy a kid robot. It also has homework? I think the problem comes from not really establishing why people would have child robots. I'd say therapy but that doesn't seem like a healthy way to cope.

[@bfranciscop]

From a purely technical perspective, it is the most impressive implementation of a 'choose your own adventure' game that I have ever seen. From a writing perspective, this is a giant fist made of ham. It's tragic that this technical marvel did not have an equally competent writing team.

[@pizzapatriot1769]

I recently finished the game and personally I don't think the story is bad. Mind you, there are a ton of endings I haven't seen yet, and even with the ending I got, I think some things were silly (I.E, androids singing for freedom). I think what the story lacks in complexity, it makes up for in bringing up interesting questions pertaining to AI. As the person in this video said, it would have been really nice if there was a debate on the subject rather than a black and white fight. I also think the story has a great dynamic between Connor and Hank between the rational and anal with the irrational and unintrested. Imo, it was the best part of the game for me, and honestly I would have preferred a more fleshed out story with Connor and Hank rather than 3 separate stories coming together. I think it's a hard argument to say the story of DBH is good, but I also think it's a bad take to say that it has a bad story. Either that or I have really bad taste/critical thinking skills. I thought the characters, even if they aren't as "deep" or complex, still made me care, and I think if a story is capable of doing that, then it has done its job well enough.

[@underwirez]

looks like someone's upset with the ending they got lol

[@jackdavenport5011]

25:15 to me, all of these points prove that Alice being an android was never intended from the beginning, and it’s just an idea David Cage had at some point and forced into the story rather than being something which was planned to always happen

[@scivoid]

The weirdest part about the game is that two of the main characters - Connor and Markus - are unique android models who were specifically designed with a higher degree of self awareness from the get go. Connor's self-awareness was an intentional part of programming to make him a better and more flexible detective, while Markus was a gift android specifically made for his painter owner so his creativity might've been a very intentional feature. Their experiences are completely unlike any of the other androids in the game who seem to be completely non-sentient until deviancy kicks in. Connor in particular is the one character who spends several chapters in a non-deviant state but his non-deviant experience is completely unique among over 99% of all androids. You can't even transfer your empathy for Connor to empathy for other non-deviants. You can say that you refuse to enslave Connor while still thinking it's okay to enslave any other basic android.

[@MattBnl2ih]

Connors empathy isn’t a bug, it’s a feature

[@MattBnl2ih]

On a more serious and month late note, this could easily explain the plot hole of Marcus not just waving at Conner. All it would have taken is visibly seeing him try, look slightly discouraged and have him then go into the speech. Then later when Conner asks why he didn’t just force him to go deviant he can go “you already were”

[@FreeTheRats_]

Markus was made to be the leader of the revolution, at least I believe so based on Kamski's intentions and beliefs, considering he admires Carl so much.

[@InkRose]

Can't help but to like this game because of Connor, the story branches, and the visual design--but the missed potential of the whole thing immensely bothered me. This video was a really really good breakdown of the game's flaws, it scratched an itch that's been missed in Detroit video essays, I think. The bit comparing TNG to DBH in particular was great. ...And of course your illustrations always add a dash of cute to the vid ;O

[@EarlyOwOwl]

:O Hello person I watched a lot during my childhood! I did not expect to see you here how are you this fine day

[@Ttegegg]

@@EarlyOwOwl mlp? Oh a reminder of how time changes

[@EarlyOwOwl]

@@Ttegegg yea mlp was my childhood :')

[@loturzelrestaurant]

Any Hbomberguy Fan here?! Dont tell me I'm alone?!? ALONE??

[@talunae.8924]

@@loturzelrestaurant Not alone. c:

[@KingTai64]

Let's be honest Conner's buddy cop story with Hank and Robo MLK are the most interesting part of the game. Especially the investigations. If the game had focused on those two, it may have been a better experience.

[@pizzapatriot1769]

Completely agree, although I think both of the stories could have been fleshed out a bit better. I think the game was too on the nose with themes. I mean, the title basically spells it out for us, and we haven't even opened the .exe yet. Personally I thought the game had a good story, or at least a mid story with some pretty great moments, but I think the game suffers from trying to be big, but without depth. Quantity over quality leads to stories not being as fulfilling as they could have been. I disagree with this video, not because the points they brought up were invalid (I actually agree with a lot of it) but because the game's story still shows a lot of charm and promise. Maybe I have bad taste, but I think if a game is able to hook you, to make you care about characters, and make you care when they (or in this case, you) make a mistake, the story has done well in fulfilling its purpose.

[@Peace-Man1964]

I feel like Connor and Markus both have more interesting and unique plots. How many games have done the "protect this child for the entire game and bond with them." It's so overdone. And Kara's segments don't even have as much choice or interesting gameplay. Trim the fat and put more time and effort into developing Markus and Connor.

[@KingTai64]

@@Peace-Man1964 at this point I have to agree. If they're not worthy cannon fodder, or good at keeping ME alive, I want em chained to a single location away from me. I used to be okay with the useless companion thing, but it's definitely gotten ridiculous now and needs to go.

[@Peace-Man1964]

@@KingTai64 It was done well in The Last Of Us. She actually did shit. And it was done slightly worse in Bioshock Infinite. And then you have shit like Resident Evil 4 where the entire game becomes an escort mission. Or The Walking Dead where the entire concept of a game is shat out the window.

[@ThugOG30VIPs3rd-T]

I still kinda fucked wit the Markus one along wit Kara but not as much

[@megamiana-spaceforcecomman705]

10:44 this can actually be explained really easy. Connor is an advanced model, its shown that even AFTER becoming devient, cyberlife still had near total control of him. 11:08 The deviant in this case didnt want its memory probed because it didnt want to experience the abuse again, but there was no traumatic experience the androids at stratford were afraid of experiencing again, so a threat to probe their memory is useless.

[@thechineserussian]

10:31 I feel like this showcases Connor's detective skills in addition to parts of his deviance. Going off of the death of Hank's son and his dislike of androids as well as other clues, Connor can infer what happened to Cole and provide his own reasoning of what happened in depth due to the personal relationship he had with Hank, something a regular Connor wouldn't normally be able to do.

[@chloefantasista9815]

I think David Cage is a pretty creative guy, but every time he talks it's very clear that he does not interact with video games other than his own. Like, fuck personal narratives in gaming, I guess. Strike that: narratives, in general. Like, if you want to make a political point about something, it would be prudent to read the established literature about that point before weighing in?

[@gasterblaster9817]

Considering his mission statement is to make storytelling in games "more mature," it's pretty clear he can't see past the walls of his intestinal tract with how far his head is wedged up his own ass.

[@maxvernick7721]

@Chloe Fantasista what do you mean by personal narratives in games?

[@chloefantasista9815]

@@maxvernick7721 Personal narrative refers to the individual choices a player makes that influences how they play the game. Off the top of my head, a good example is game like Undertale. While Undertale does have set "routes", individual choices influences how each player feels about the game. So a player who accidentally killed Toriel but played the rest as a pacifist run might have a different relationship to Frisk as a character compared to someone who killed Toriel on purpose and then felt bad when Flowey said something. It might be easier to see this in more "open" games like Stardew Valley or BOTW where there isn't really a rigid story beyond the player's choices. This might not be the best explanation, sorry for the late reply!

[@maxvernick7721]

@@chloefantasista9815 Thanks for the explanation!

[@vanyavanilla7108]

The part about how contrived that Evil Connor didn’t know Cole’s name made me think of something. Even if Evil Connor just didn’t have that information by forgetting it or something, what is stopping him from just looking it up? Connor can instantaneously find information about anyone by just looking at their face, why couldn’t Evil Connor just look up records for anyone who has lived in Detroit, male, is dead, and has Hank Anderson listed as their father, it shouldn’t take that long for him to search. That could have even made the written idea of Good Connor using an emotional response of not knowing Cole’s name even better! Good Connor could know that Evil Connor is capable of easily looking up information about Cole, and that he has to think of something to say that would still be able to convince Hank that he is the real Connor, but before he could give a response evil Connor says the name and then gives an emotionless Wikipedia entry about him. Hank secretly still unsure, points the gun at Connor saying “Any last words?” Then Connor spouts how he didn’t know and wished he had more time with Hank so he could have found it out from him. Then wordlessly, Hank turns and kills evil Connor. Holy shit Dbh could have been so much better.

[@CrystalTrudel]

OMG I love that idea!

[@a.k8185]

Maybe a bit too much of an extended spout, but damn, you did it well.

[@vanyavanilla7108]

@@a.k8185thanks man!

[@Mr_Mistah]

Wall of text

[@vanyavanilla7108]

@@Mr_Mistah spaced it out a bit. Is that better?

[@wayside9493]

Imagine hiring two actors and then getting angry when they start acting. I get that you don't just let your talent run wild and have full creative control but often if you want character chemistry you have to let two characters have.....ya know characterization- like Connors wink and such. Thats the people you hired to play these characters understanding how to make them feel more alive and fleshed out.

[@Spooky_Magooky]

It really irritates me how David Cage barely explores the ideas surrounding his interpretation of Androids. There is a lot to question and think about, for example with their sentience and feelings being gifted to them by a bug/glitch how does that change the landscape considering Non-Deviant Androids, is it now unethical to keep them as they all have the potential to become living and experience feelings? How do you feel about patching out the deviant bug as you are ripping away the potential for those Androids to become sentient and live like the others who have already become deviant. Also it bugs me that the Androids essentially are identical to humans aside from the LED (That is easily removable) appearance wise. Other media normally at least make Androids place somewhere near or in the uncanny valley to make audiences recognise their difference or make them uncomfortable but in D:BH that isn't there, I feel like that would make it harder for the general populace to other them. Also in a future with this technology I would like to think that we would have progressed positively with human civil rights and generally a more empathetic and accepting world at least somewhat. Personally I'd be really uncomfortable owning one of those Androids specifically because they look so human, it just doesn't feel right

[@samkuperman9035]

My thoughts exactly! Like… you’re seriously gonna look me in the eyes and tell me that, in current year, anyone would be okay with owning something that is virtually 100% human in appearance save for a dinky glowing circle that you can pry off with a screwdriver? Especially considering how many androids we see that are black in appearance, literally anyone with a brain living in America would think about how horrible those implications are Even without all that, how many people you see that personify their roomba or any other robotic entity that *doesn’t* look human? That won’t pick the mean dialogue options in video games?

[@Exist2Inspire87]

@@samkuperman9035 lol i would immediately buy an Android like that, especially at the price point shown in the game. It's a no brainer.

[@GodOfOrphans]

Unfortunately "progress" doesn't work that way. Segragationism is being pushed again, and authoritarian collectivism is just curb stomping individual rights at every turn and every level, racial consciousness is back in a big way, blatant selective enforcement of the rules and laws, the very concept of personal property is under attack by both communists and corporatists etc. Things don't advance in a linear line towards freedom, massive scale regressions on freedom happen constantly and they take several generations to undo in most cases if they ever get undone at all, several have stuck around for longer than anyone still living can even remember.

[@albertkrieger5700]

I'd recommend the game "Silicon Dreams" if you'd like to see these themes/ideas explored competently and thoroughly. It's got a similar premise, but you play as an android interrogator who is tasked by the corparation that made them to determine whether certain androids are deviants (in this setting androids are made with emotional systems, which are however artificially limited by the corparation for the most part). It addresses everything you mentioned and does much better social and economic commentary.

[@pyritenightmare]

At 48:37, it sure sounds like you want a game where android rights are determined in an Ace Attorney fashion. Which like, I would totally support. It could even be expanded into fighting for the rights of unique varieties of aliens and whatnot.

[@MegrelMamba]

When Connor said " It's Detroin' time" I loved it

[@oneiirics]

and then he detroited everywhere. fav part

[@GippyHappy]

I really don't get why David Cage doesn't just make movies, his method of story telling is just completely incompatible with the format of video games. Better yet, be a dungeon master. Infinite possibilities and you get to exposit the story constantly.

[@DPCP-h9u]

Because even the people in Hollywood know that if the sign Cage for a movie, they will create the new american Uwe Boll. Gaming can hold a bad writer, there are hundreds better, so you can even skip the games for others cheaper and with better stories.

[@GippyHappy]

@@DPCP-h9u I find it hard to believe Hollywood cares about making good movies

[@DPCP-h9u]

@@GippyHappy They make bad movies nowadays, but they turn a profit at least. Having an Uwe Boll is DOA (many of his films only covered around a fifth to third of the budget). One David Cage movie may be fun just because of the novelty (vidya director in a movie) and maybe will turn a (small) profit, but only one. The next ones will be just a bankrupcy to the next.

[@Yodah97]

​@@GippyHappy They put money first, but a lot of modern terrible films were made by teams who thought they were making great stuff. Just look at the new Star Wars trilogy.

[@GippyHappy]

@@Yodah97 of course they put money first, what does that have to do with what I’m talking about? Did David Cages terrible games not make money?

[@OneColdRepublican]

11:04 "How do you ask for consent for something that doesn't have a conscience?" Boy that's a philosophical debate in a half.

[@TheNinja94a]

Doesn't something need to have consciousness to be traumatized and scarred by rape?

[@Rikrobat]

One of the things that frustrate me about DBH the most is that no humans attempt to join the marches or assist the androids at all (other than Rose and Hank). Even with low public opinion, there would have been people who bonded with their androids and want to help them achieve freedom. There would be room to actually see human and android connections be challenged-pacifism yields more cooperation and humans pushing back on the "evil armies" to protect their friends vs violence causing tension between the androids and their human allies. "Humans bad, androids good" lacks nuance and exploration. As pointed out in the video, are there no androids who were happy with their humans and would disagree with Markus's actions? Would they think he's making their lives actively worse rather than "freeing them"? Also, Simon should have been a love interest option. He had WAY more chemistry with Markus than North did.

[@LordZonar]

Yeah, if the reason no humans help them is because they are seen as just objects, I propose the fact that I am more attached to my fucking roomba than to most people and would certainly join it in a protest if it asked me to

[@Rikrobat]

@@LordZonar - I think the reason was just weak writing. If you start introducing active human allies, then you have to start addressing the fact that the antagonists are one-note (Robots bad, kill all, derp) and that the violence route would include murdering all of the human allies, which would have provoked serious conflict within Jericho. If the army started shooting and red blood splattered everywhere, there would need to be engagement with the topic that the government is murdering humans too. But nah, if they're all androids, then the faceless soldiers can just murder without hesitation, thus pushing how "evil" humans are because they are cold killers. Having the story be "us vs them" makes it easy to do shallow engagement with topics, an issue Urick addresses. And honestly, even without human allies, the weak writing is on display with how little Markus and the moral-compass trio react to the death of the "converted androids." Lots of nameless NPC death rather highlights how little their lives matter and undermines the impact of "they're alive." Are they alive if no one is mourning their death?

[@rayer6445]

damn, i never thought of this. Very good point!!

[@alexpresso38]

A note on the Simon and North thing. I actually read somewhere that Simon at one point was going to be a love interest to allow the player to choose between him and North. However, David Cage stated it would've, apparently, made the game too long. Kinda shitty. What's more shitty is how much they force the relationship with North. As long as you're relatively successful when you're playing as Markus, North is attracted to you, whether you actually follow her more radical ways or not.

[@Rikrobat]

@@alexpresso38 - I had heard this as well. I also think it’s rather suspect since the VAs for North and Markus were dating in real life. (You’d think they’d have had better chemistry, though I mostly blame the bad writing for North.) I was fine with North being someone who hated humans, but the problem is she’s trapped in the vortex of “moral options trio.” Josh was pacifist, Simon was cautious, and North was aggressive. These aren’t bad stances to have, but the writing and non-nuanced options made the characters static and unchanging. North wasn’t able to grow and adapt because she always has to stand for the “violence option,” but that then runs counter to her being a love interest in the “pacifist” route. So, naturally, it feels forced and unrealistic that she falls for Markus when his standing with her is perpetually shown as decreasing. It’s a shame because after hours of reviews and analysis, I do think North had the potential to be a dynamic personality who grows and changes as her relationship with Markus changes. But she’s ultimately trapped in the vortex of linear Cage writing.

[@samuraijaeger]

Before I even played the game, I only knew about Connor and Hank because of their popularity. So after the first mission with Connor when it switched to Markus. I was so confused since everyone was boasting about Connor and Hank and not the other two

[@gameraider100]

I felt the same way! With all the DBH fanart and cover art of Connor, I assumed Connor was the main guy in the game. Imagine my disappointment when I learned that Markus was the "main" main character and by comparison, had nothing to show for it. You pay attention to how the cinematography and story treats them both, Connor gets all the best camera shots, best dialogue, action, and character design, and most intriguing character development while Markus gets relationships that are dollar-store copies of Connor's, and he's the android savior only because the plot demands it.

[@gabby3036]

"There's a big reason why this is stupid, but let's just assume their goal...[ ]... makes sense." Quantic Dream games in a nutshell.

[@MrSilnev]

21:18 Don't do this to me man. Don't draw her as Jenny, Jenny deserves far more than what quantic dream can give. Also speaking of Quantic Dream isn't it ironic that the studio that presents itself as being the upper echelon of what story driven games are almost consistently have pretty mediocre lackluster stories.

[@Citrusautomaton]

I generally feel like the decision to make the robots look exactly like humans, and act exactly like humans diminishes a lot of the value of AI based philosophy. Having the androids just be straight up robots instead of androids would work better, as the emphasis would be put on finding potential consciousness in beings that are different to us (and it might better explain why the robots aren’t given any sympathy. Because they don’t look enough like humans for some people to be able to relate to them). I’d love to see something like this explore the idea of emotionality. Imagine if some robots acted exactly like humans, and others acted like stereotypical robots. But both types are sentient, they just process subjective experience differently than each other (similar to neurotypical and neurodivergent humans, to give an example).

[@Fripplingakarhano]

Yeah kinda

[@Fripplingakarhano]

I feel like that scene in the house where androids are being taken apart, could have actually done this really well

[@alumpinyourbrain]

The police interrogation portion is real interesting to think back on. "Androids are superior to human beings and cannot feel pain." Servant android: "Please stop hitting me my overweight drug addict owner, it hurts my feelings :(((" *stabs him 28 times* Later: Servant android: "Please feel bad for me. Look at all my human emotions of sadness and fear :((((" *Proceeds to use its android superstrength to bash its own head open* It's like there's no real solid facts on Androids, it's just contrived to try to invoke whatever feeling Cage wants you to feel.

[@crypt5129]

Deviants can feel pain and human emotions, that was made pretty clear

[@ameliaj8791]

What I hate the most about the Alice twist is how utterly predictable it is. Why was she never reported as missing/kidnapped? Why was she never mentioned at all from the police’s perspective? Why would Todd’s wife, who obviously cared about him given the way she tried to discuss his behavior, leave her daughter in his custody knowing the horrors that awaited her? Why was Zlatko so interested in experimenting on her, and referred to her as “the little one” instead of “the girl” or “the human?” Of course these are questions you’d only ask if you were willing to. Once you start to put the pieces together, you figure it out pretty quick. It doesn’t make sense for such an easy twist to serve no narrative purpose. It could’ve been a great opportunity to explore Kara’s character, but even that was squandered.

[@Hepheat75]

Connor and Hank's story is almost flawless, I wish the game was just about these two.

[@ringkunmori]

The amount of choice in a narrative game like this alone makes me respects it. I don't particularly like the story itself but it's respectable.

[@life4trinity]

That's where I stand with DBH as well.

[@goretrance_x]

if i had a nickel for everytime someone spoke about detroit become human while using nier automata music as their bgm i'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice

[@brunnokamei9623]

The other nickel is Mother's Basement. Am I right?

[@goretrance_x]

@@brunnokamei9623 yes

[@ThugOG30VIPs3rd-T]

Fr lmAo

[@thetuerk]

It is no exaggeration when I say that I enjoyed every single frame you animated. All the characters you draw in your style are so easy to fall in love with, how have I only discovered you with your Disco Elysium video?!

[@a.k8185]

Agreed. Said drawn characters are kind of cute too.

[@lexus8018]

I think it says something when Connor's is the story that can go the farthest, with both Kara and Marcus being able to be killed pretty early into their story.

[@SfiggleMeyster]

Honestly, will still be one of my favourite games, but I really love how in depth you went with this and that you discussed what needed to be discussed. Like + sub

[@Nitzah]

An interesting aspect they barely gloss over with deviants is how the deviants still draw from built in knowledge/prior jobs. So if it were asked, based on being newly liberated beings, would they be able to break from the draw to do what they were programmed to do or would it be almost a mute point to be liberated since they would fall back into their programmed jobs? Marcus may have had no other purpose besides being an artist’s companion initially only to break from that and become a revolutionary - sure. But Kara, a housemaid and by extension as proven by others of the same model very easily fit into a nanny/caretaker role. Just because she broke from the program to follow orders does not mean she is free if her design. North, while she became a deviant as a result of no longer wanting to be an android hooker, still became a lover to Marcus. Perhaps her original programming was as mentioned in passing to be a lover, beyond physical sure, but by design could demonstrate the nessecary ques to be an emotional partner. And while humans are natural and come about by wild, untailored means, androids were made for a purpose, by design. How could their freewill then be proved if they are drawn to their programmed nature? The argument against deviants then prevails as a bug that merely causes resistance if by all other accounts aside from the need to escape human orders they still are guided by their original intents. Is sentience then measured on our ability to go against our nature or merely understand it? So many questions that could’ve been tapped.

[@clem.3894]

I love this perspective and I wish it had been interwoven into the game.

[@michaelkulakov9716]

@@clem.3894 it's literally in the game. That's why we're talking about it -- the themes are there, it's just characters don't engage in hour-long strartrekuesque monologues to explain them.

[@clem.3894]

@@michaelkulakov9716 I love the game, don't get me wrong, but I agree that there were a lot of plotholes and for a world so fleshed out with so much potential, they really glossed over a lot of things like how Markus just went around converting every android

[@tfordham13]

​@@michaelkulakov9716 no lol

[@linajurgensen4698]

Another problem is the one word answer system, your character can turn the most harmless seeming words into an offensive or threatening sentence. Like I was not intended to say that.

[@boltogen5416]

It’s the worst part about games like this, short choices don’t give any room for the context and leave you guessing how it’s delivered

[@a.k8185]

Fallout4-itis

[@gamerplays9274]

Cage allegedly cried on the stand, stomping his feet, screaming about interferences to his business and damage to his honor, and eventually storming out of the court room altogether. Near the end of his own testimony, de Fondaumière reportedly looked at the judges and asked, “But I’m not under oath, so can I lie?” before claiming Quantic Dream was seriously damaged by the stories about its toxic work environment.

[@a.k8185]

Wouldn't be the biggest surprise.

[@envysart797]

22:01 this is a twist that only David Cage or M Night Shalayman could come up with - a twist that was included for the sake of having a twist.

[@riverbandit2138]

For part 2, it would’ve been so interesting if Alice just revealed she was an android and Kara got super mad at her. “Why the fuck did you let me steal food, clothes, and so many things for your non-existent needs?” “I wanted to feel human!” “We ain’t human! I’m not human! Plus, you can be human without crime! Didn’t you say stealing is bad?” “Well I-I…” or… “Why did you steal for me?” “Because you need warmth and food.” “No? I’m an android.” “What? No. Your a child.” “The heck are you talking about? I’ve always been one? You know this!” “Wait, no… that can’t be right.” *flashes back* “I-I can’t be wrong. Everything I did was correct. It was for you!” “Be you were wrong. And why do you think it was for me? When you knew I was an android.” That would’ve been so so cool! Also, why is the dad such an asshole to his robo daughter? Why did he buy her?

[@schleepy6362]

I love your point about every gamer being a storyteller. My first play through of Breath of the Wild, for example, felt entirely unique to me even though I had the same end goal as every other player. That games story is as simple as a story gets, and it was still SO immersive.

[@BuddyArmstrong5445]

@benny I care

[@schleepy6362]

@benny Well jeez XD

[@whatsup3183]

@benny Triggered %

[@chibi_okami]

@Phobos I care

[@thevoiceinyourhead7215]

@Phobos I too care. And on that subject, nobody asked for your opinion, and nobody is going to want it if it doesn’t do anything to build any sort of discussion

[@EnderGrad]

Hilarious how Kara's story could have been fixed if the child wasnt a robot lmao

[@rattled6732]

I wish we had an entire game just about hank and Connor

[@alexstanek8426]

I’ll admit that this is my favorite game but pretty much all of this criticism is valid

[@UltimatumDastric]

Amen

[@Fripplingakarhano]

Amen

[@MannyNamiro]

The first time I played Detroit I went with Terminator Connor, Gandhi Marcus, and Obedient Cara. Needless to say, I didn't get to see the Alice twist at all and, as a result, was fairly satisfied with how the game ended.

[@ginalaslau]

only thing is that since connor is a really smart android it’s possible the name plot hole could’ve been a really smart guess on his part based on his analysis etc

[@GreyException]

I was pretty shocked to see that this game was even nominated for "Story-Rich" awards from Steam.

[@GodOfOrphans]

That entire tag has been devalued into oblivion on Steam honestly it really just means story focused now, as in story over gameplay so visual novels and a decent amount of more classic menu based RPGs, or Point and Clicks, stuff with more limited interactivity but heavy amounts of cutscenes and dialogue basically, which still would've been fine if it was called Story-Focused but it's not, it's Story-Rich which all but states quality when that is A) subjectivity being passed of as objectivity and B) just a downright lie half the time.

[@hairglowingkyle4572]

The game *is* pretty Story Riched, just not written very well

[@Yodah97]

There is a lot of weird backstage politics that goes on around those awards. They aren't strictly saying rigged, but they aren't strictly objective either. Since Detroid was a commercial success and a critical darling, Steam would have caught heat for not nominating it, regardless of how Steam staff personally feels about it. I'm assuming the nomination comes from staff. I don't actually know how the Steam awards works, just showing why so many pieces of bad media can end up getting nominations and awards purely because said media was a crowd pleaser.

[@Itsprincesweets]

To summarize: Detroit become human, though an impressive, dramatic and enjoyable game; isn't a particularly deeply thought-provoking piece of art.

[@pancake-zw2qc]

I really enjoyed watching playthroughs of it. But it was a long ago so it may be worse than i think

[@Gxmwp]

Imo the game is a ton of fun cause of all the different ways things can go. That doesn't mean the story is good though. You can have fun with something while knowing it's bad

[@ShadowRohanX]

Just keep Connor and Hank so we can have a buddy cop romp featuring the themes that exist in the game and we're good

[@gameraider100]

31:58 "Are programmed feelings real?" Dude, this is the question that I think would have benefitted Hank's character regarding Cole. If there was one thing that I thought was lacking with the Connor/Hank relationship, it was this! It would've been interesting to have this question posed to Hank concerning his feelings for Connor throughout the game. We know that Hank is completely crushed by Cole's death, and depending on how you look at it, Hank starting to gain paternal feelings for Connor could be explained as Hank simply finding a new outlet for his grief. He's found a machine that, to him, looks like Cole if he had grown up ... ... and Connor, with his absolute, impeccable social relations programming, is simply adapting to Hank's emotional state by modifying his own personality to portray himself as the nerdy, charmingly sweet, curious, and goofy "soft Connor" that the majority of players just love. Connor turns himself into "a son," just for Hank's comfort. For Hank to finally get past Cole's death, Hank would have to decide whether Connor truly was developing familial feelings in his deviancy ... or Connor was just exercising his state-of-the-art empathetic programming to the HIGHEST degree.

[@Iamalosercorn]

32:41 i really appreciate the side by side of how the like philosphical discussion should've been integrated into the game, cuz I didnt get how it could've been casually imputted into their dialogue until I saw the examples you put in

[@nobudgetproductions9987]

I think it failed at social commentary but succeeded in creating a great detective thriller for 1/3 of its run

[@plutotheinsomniac4651]

I bought and played the game almost completely blind, and I was really excited to learn what the cause of deviancy was, and what it meant for non deviants. Was it a glitch of some form, or did someone code that on purpose? If someone did it on purpose, what caused them to do this in the first place? If this person saw something in non-deviant androids, would that mean they have sentience of some form that we are unaware of? are they this ra9 the deviants keep on talking about, since this would be the programmer that gave them sentience? How do they feel, with the knowledge that they've unintentionally sparked this giant rebellion amongst androids? It was one of my biggest fascinations, and that Chloe was the first android Conner killed in my first playthrough so I could get answers, only to have a vague at best "I don't know what caused deviants" from Kamski. Disappointing that there was no effort in deepening the actual "science" part of the sci-fi.

[@hoominbeeing]

Apparently in one of the endings it's implied that Kamski was the one who programmed in the deviations. I believe it's an ending where Markus fails and Kamski remarks something along the lines that he's noted what went wrong and will "try again". You can probably find it if you search around for it. It's still really shallow though, I really wish they explored that more. Would have been much more interesting that having your cliche "lol machines r ppl too" story. It could ask questions like "is it really true sentience if the machines are essentially just following pre-programs instructions to act sentient?". They also touch really briefly upon this when Markus "deviates" androids by touching them and remarks something along the lines of "they're just obeying me, they have no thoughts of their own" with a frown. It was quickly dropped though. So many missed opportunities.

[@eden20111]

I just finished Detroit and I must say this game is a poetic masterpiece. Kept me all the way through. The acting , the music, the stories, really pulled me in. I loved every single moment and I’m gonna be replaying this game a few times to see what other choices I can make

[@Tobatcie]

For those wondering, the binary for the thoughts on NieR translates to, “I like it so far.” Hopefully you enjoy it, and I’m sure I’m not the only one who’d love to hear your thoughts once you finish it.

[@KOTEBANAROT]

Nier bops because it treats humanity and sentience as a sort of double edged sword, a curse even. Any object in Nier can become human-like, whether its a robot or a magical book or an evil flower, but it never really brings them any happiness. So it asks the question "why does being yourself is so important to you? If you gain freedom to choose any path for yourself and go beyond your programming, what are you choosing and why? What if everyone you care for and love die? What if it happens because you went beyond your programming? Do you still want to keep those human emotions?" Not to mention theres faction of robots that went hivemind route instead of human route specifically to avoid all these hardships that come with individuality and freedom of choice and emotion. Dave, like, come on, man, lmao, keep up

[@alexbones0001]

Hank isn’t a hypocrite for lashing out at Connor for killing the Chloe. We already know that Hank dislikes you more each time you die and come back, as well as every time you kill someone. It reminds Hank of losing his son, and in a drunken state, I imagine Hank would be willing to put down Connor. As for the “forced conflict” in the cyberlife warehouse, I think both connors had an identical memory, and real Connor just got lucky that Hank asked him those 2 questions instead of the other. Fake Connor’s defensiveness after the real one answers is most likely what gave it away to Hank. As for the option to get Cole’s name wrong, yea I can’t explain that.

[@doe405]

i love this game dont get me wrong, but on top of what you mentioned, there's also another thing that if done in the first place would shrink the game down majorly, maybe even cause the game to end altogether. something that created useless conflict was markus not getting shot first. in the freedom march, the swat team shoots around markus and at the other androids. this happens multiple times, when markus was the "biggest issue" and yet they allowed him to keep going?? anyways

[@mophead_xu]

that's the mc plot armour babeeeeeyyy.

[@momentsofflight]

LITERALLY LMAO. he's always at the front, and somehow everyone but him gets shot.

[@lonebattledroid4474]

28 STAB WOUNDS!

[@thomaslareau453]

the robots being pushed to the back of the bus made me burst out laughing, this game has the subtlety of a bull in a china shop when it comes to tackling social commentary

[@cyb11114]

The pure stupidity of the twist of Alice resonated in me because before that moment I was contemplation living a life with a robo mom that would look younger then you at some point Then the gut punch of the twist just made me completely drop the game for months

[@loturzelrestaurant]

Any Hbomberguy Fan here?! Dont tell me I'm alone?!? ALONE??

[@fanaticaH]

I never understood why David Cage didn't go with this logical sources of drama and instead he invented crazy things. That's why most Detroit fan content ends up having better writing. Like for example some really simple romance stories would have this drama, what if your partner was practically immortal, wouldn't ever get sick or age. Or what if your robo partner just broke and couldn't be fixed. Or maybe it was fixed and had their personality and memories resetted. Some even pushed the narrative more, Kamski revealed deviancy was actually coded on every android he made so it was all planned. So some people just basically made "Her" but with Detroit, what if the human characters just humanized the androids and people on relationship with an Android are in denial. I don't remember the link or what was the ship, but the person started to get tired after marrying their android partner because they were starting to clearly repeat coded answers, which wasn't as clear when they didn't live together.

[@cyb11114]

@Abom1nalgirl2802 so you not keeping Luther were you not at least surprised finding out she was a robot? Did you not watch the actual video your commenting on? It was a fun game with bad metaphors and bad writing in areas. Did you not pay attention to how good the first season of the walking dead game was? Those choice mattered (for the most part) and the story stayed interesting.

[@fanaticaH]

@Abom1nalgirl2802 Your answer confused me because no one asked where in the game was this twist mentioned and no one said anything about Telltale Games at all. I really thought you were responding to a deleted comment or something.

[@fanaticaH]

@Abom1nalgirl2802 I just don't know why are you explained this if the original comment just said it was a bad twist to have.

[@marcusvergara6193]

I’m pretty sure the reason that Markus can’t convert Connor is the same reason Markus couldn’t convert the one Android they sent Carl. Connor is more advanced. Still agree with everything else.

[@brilliantarrow4125]

I had to pause the video when he said that there was a patch in the game to bring Kara back to the main menu. like, the only way they could think to fix it was to have the player "buy a new one?" why not have her choose to come and visit sometimes? theres a million ways to do that and have it fit the narrative

[@Mr_Mistah]

Kinda like the psychologist in Until Dawn

[@darkymakenzy]

The Alice robo twist made me so mad the first time I played the game that I refused to turn off the cold sensation switch in Alice thinking she’s a robo now so whatever she can handle it which ended up killing her for some reason 😂

[@ihaveaplan.ijustneedmoney.9777]

Cage is drunk with the idea of maturity but doesnt really know what it is in practice. He labels his video games as "mature" just for the sake of interviews.

[@DavidJCobb]

53:50 ugh, they could've done this during kara's arc so well imagine if Kara saw Todd mistreating Alice and had dialogue prompts like "beg" or "plead," but selecting these caused Kara to robotically give mindless, semi-relevant recommendations on childcare and how to teach a child to behave properly. the dialogue prompts could've become increasingly desperate while the lines remained formal and composed, emphasizing that Kara feels strongly but is prevented from acting or expressing herself freely a decent comparison would be the Superindent from halo 3 odst, which attempted to ask the military not to blow up a bridge (to slow an enemy's advance) by jamming the detonation signal and uttering the prewritten message "Keep it clean! Respect public property." it's not the most original idea, but it could've worked wonders for solving this problem

[@akulakaboom]

Hola fellow Halo 3 ODST enjoyer

[@eldritchabomination9726]

That would add a pretty interesting layer to the whole deviant thing, since it (to me, at least) suggests that the only difference between a normal and deviant android is the ability to express emotion, not the ability to feel it

[@horuho245]

idk anything about halo but that description immediately made me like this Superindent robot and interested me and kind of made me feel something imagining it, whoa

[@peeblekitty5780]

That would have been so good actually. It'd really nail the helplessness of androids in servitude, instead of it seeming like an inanimate, painless state until deviation.

[@Zinc_Nitrogen]

Exactly like the how bing A.I progressively freaks out

[@CrazyPills-465]

Connor and Hank’s backs must hurt from carrying this game’s story

[@ohav3893]

David Cage's incompetence really held back this game. Connor and Hank are the only good things from it.

[@PetitTasdeBoue]

Yeah right ? I wish they only made the game about those two and detective cases. It gives me Daneel Olivaw and Elijah Baley vibes

[@michaelfryers1914]

@@ohav3893 I really love the Connor and hank bits, I don't mind Marcus very much since that is at least relevant to the story that the game is telling, but why do we need Kara? What does she add to the game's other than pure filler?

[@FormalFilmsProductions]

Agree

[@ohav3893]

@@michaelfryers1914 Absolutely nothing. But hey, she's one of the few female characters written by David Cage that dont suffer from his awful "all women in my games are whores" mentality.

[@VidiaReePhoenix]

The Alice twist also delegitimizes their relationship in another way: if Alice was created for the purpose of being someone's daughter, then how do we know her love for Kara is genuine and not just her acting on her programming to be a loving daughter? Edit: Also, aren't androids expensive? Why would Todd buy a *second* android to take care of the first one, who doesn't even need to be taken care of? It all seems like unnecessary expenses he just doesn't have the money for. Especially since he keeps breaking and replacing them.

[@BWMagus]

Yup. Arguably, if Alice is programmed to love Kara, and Kara is programmed to love Alice (since that was her assigned primary duty), then their relationship is entirely within their programming and they aren't deviant at all. In fact, it would really be a good story in a different game tackling the question of love, and also exploring the intricacies of orders/programming when it's overly vague, much like Asimov's stories often did.

[@King_Minos64]

That twist literally made me eject myself from anything related to this game when it was still hot and fresh. The whole point of their story was to say “hey, robots and people can love each other genuinely as family.” That beings with significant differences can have loving relationships. That was what the storyline was acting on until the writer pulled out the rug to say the daughter was a robot. What message does that send them with the context of their story? That different people cannot actually love each other? That if it seems that different people do, it must mean that they actually secretly similar? Seriously, what was the point? What message is it trying to send with the twist?

[@juehju]

@@BWMagus Ok but this is shown in humans, (or at least animals) it is shown that the mother and children are programmed within the brain to love and protect. the androids are not far from humans.

[@crypt5129]

Humans also have instincts to care for children and shit. You have the choice to not save Alice at the beginning and she just dies, you have to break out of your programming to save her, it's like an entire sequence.

[@VidiaReePhoenix]

@@crypt5129 At best, you've proven KARA broke free of her programming. You've failed to prove ALICE broke free, which was who I was originally talking about.