Using Puzzles To Improve Your Game - GM Toolbox

[@rotuno6029]

Prop puzzles = Good Prop traps = E.R. trip... Lesson learned.

[@immortalwolf3055]

um you could make the projectile or whatever out of nerf foam.

[@michaelramon2411]

As the old saying goes: "Killing PCs is a part of the game. Killing players is a crime."

[@oz_jones]

@@michaelramon2411 But smashing your DM with an actual warhammer means you won DnD, right?

[@alanbear6505]

Recently my GM brought a puzzle he had been given to game. He found it so difficult that he had to go online to look for hints, but he managed to solve it. One of the players picked it up, just starting twirling it around making no attempt to open it and had it open in under 45 seconds. It did not do good things for the GM's self esteem.

[@immortalwolf3055]

lol that is awesome

[@robertnett9793]

Oh I do love those riddle-boxes and locks :D

[@inomad1313]

Had a DM give me the “fox, chicken and grain riddle”. He told me that he had worked on it all day the day before and he was going into the kitchen to do a one on one with another player. They were still getting drinks and hadn’t started yet when I walked in and handed him the solution. He just stared at me as I walked back into the other room to wait for him. He was a great and creative DM, but never really could throw me a curveball...except that +1 magic longsword. Smh.

[@oz_jones]

Roll for emotional damage

[@Jeffs40K]

love the XP idea for opening the puzzle.

[@DarthMalnu]

Puzzle boxes also make for great side quests. Instead of it being a riddle to be solved to get through an area, it can be an item that players can work away on at their leisure, or maybe find some renowned genius to help open, and when it does, all sorts of fun hell can break loose. That way, the difficulty can be ignored if too hard, but diligence is rewarded.

[@kevinsullivan3448]

It could also seem like a treasure in and of itself, but contain a hook for another adventure. Like an old map that shows an area the characters are familiar with, but there are town with names they do not know and some of the places they have visited are not there. And doesn't the river flow on the south side of that volcanic spire?

[@FelixMerivel]

Something that I found pretty neat in the Mansions of Madness boardgame (the fantasy flight boardgame, not the rp adventure) was that they included a couple of puzzles. They were really easy - rearrange tiles to get a picture, or to connect some wires - so there was no danger of them stalling the game. But it was not impossible for them to take a couple of turns to solve, since they were tied to the character's INT stat - you get as many moves/turns/swaps as your INT.

[@5oundOfVictory]

my favorite puzzle: the palette cleanser. it’s a painfully simple puzzle that isn’t immediately obvious. however, it teaches your players that they don’t need to overthink absolutely everything. it keeps them grounded for the next puzzle so they don’t keep spending hours on these puzzles.

[@jesternario]

A little off topic, but I’ve utilized riddle contests and other such puzzles in my campaigns. My absolute favorite is still the Sphinx that wanted to have a staring contest with the characters. After describing the Sphinx sitting in the way, I played the Sphinx, who said nothing, but simply stared unblinking at someone until they blinked and then turned their attention to someone else. It took the players five minutes to figure out what her unspoken “riddle” was, but once they did, they instantly went along with it and the game was so much fun.

[@snate56]

I love riddles and puzzles and such but I've seen far too many games grind to a halt because of them, so now when I use them, it's to get to a bonus treasure of some kind and they don't have to solve the puzzle just to get through or escape the dungeon.

[@fireinthedust]

Puzzle box + Gravity incident = "million to one shot, doc, it was a million to one!" "Of course, Mr. Skorkowsy; in proctology I see this kind of million-to-one chance all the time. Lucky me."

[@raswartz]

LOL @ the look on surfer dude's face when you hand him the star puzzle...

[@gaakin9482]

Just discovered your channel. its very well made and really helps me getting a greater understanding of role playing games, keep it up ! :)

[@KuyVonBraun]

The board game Mansions of Madness features actual puzzles as part of its gameplay & is worth checking out if you haven't already done so.

[@SSkorkowsky]

I've been doing a mating dance with Mansions of Madness, but we so rarely play board games that I've abstained from buying it. I keep imagining it living in my closet forever, damned for eternity beside my Cthulhu Wars game.

[@KuyVonBraun]

Seth Skorkowsky well if you're ever tempted to take the plunge it's a game I'd recommend. Ok it's basically Cthulhu but the format brings a different dynamic to the tabletop & can be a lot of fun. My advice is to not play it as a horror but more of a beer & pretzels game, that way the inevitable goofing around won't seem out of step :)

[@kevinsullivan3448]

In my 40 year old gaming world of Phacseon, there is a lifeless desert, and I do mean lifeless, with a dozen or so stories about it. In the many years I have used this world I have only had one group who wanted to find out what was in the desert. What they found was a strange temple with a riddle. There were also other clues that they gathered by exploring the temple and examining the art and design of the structures. Instead of trying to puzzle it out at the Temple, they left the same way they got in, by using their brains, and they sought out the most learned mages and historians. When talking to one sage he said something that clicked with the information they had already gathered and the clues they had found and went back to the temple, with a bit more experience, and solved the riddle. It was literally a world changing event and campaign ended with them being heroes and all that good stuff, then I changed Duty Stations.

[@miguelnieves5074]

The skit with the dude solving the puzzle overnight was the best. Thanks for this content!

[@admpandora91]

i like the puzzles that aren't required to complete the adventure, but does access a room behind or immediately adjacent to the adventure's end goal.

[@krisbowling9681]

Don't like puzzles myself, but the occasional prop can make the game more interesting.

[@adamlaspata7001]

I'm writing a two-part D&D 5e adventure set in the Feywild in which the players have to read and interpret poems in order to figure out where to go/what to do next. The weird/fun part is that these are English translations of actual real-world Expressionist poems.

[@zellarcher]

YAY! More Skorkowsky!

[@MrDrumStikz]

Xekratos Wait, you watch him too? Woah.

[@zellarcher]

Woah holy shit! Small world!

[@inomad1313]

I never considered using actual puzzles before. Great idea.

[@LuciMorgonstjaerna]

Puzzles and riddles are great Indeed. I have a friend who's tried to give us in game puzzles where we should say what we do but only gave us a drawing from a top down view. It didn't work well at all. Players don't always see the same thing the game master sees in his/her mind so it's important to have physical interactive tangible puzzles at that point.

[@BlackLegion1616]

I've gave some a players a puzzle at the end of a session, the session ended with them stuck in a room filling with gas unless they open the puzzle. If the get the puzzle right they continue on the dungeon next session, if they failed, I ended the session with them all falling over and everything going black. When they came back over for the next session, they had awoken in a dungeon cell. So the puzzle was a good challenge that added a nice fun cliff hangar for everyone.

[@Raven.flight]

Love the award for solving the puzzle. I made a puzzle once for the character's to solve. One of the players went down the 'I've got an 18 intelligence... I shouldn't need to figure this out, I work it out myself'. It pissed me off and I really didn't know how to solve that, but (especially with this guy) giving an award, or more importantly saying 'you missed out' is sure to get them trying next time.

[@Frostfly]

There is an excellent 3d printed version of the Cryptex on the Prusa Forums. Its got 5, 6, 7, 8 and 10 letter versions. As well as a few variations on those parts. It's a cool prop. I'm gonna use it in my next game.

[@Kevin-us4gj]

I know this comment is late to the game, but I wanted to tell you how much fun incorporating puzzle boxes into my sessions was! In a long running Force and Destiny game I've been running, the idea was first used when the players were investigating ancient temples. I broke apart a picture of Cthulhu into 3x3 squares that the players had to manipulate into the correct picture to open the temple door. The players loved it and inspired me to create more puzzles for my players. After a little while I noticed that our techie and hacker felt like they were missing out. So I expanded upon the puzzle box into things like a mock explosive for the techie to disarm by cutting circuit wires in the correct order (see the Bomb Academy game on Steam for a rough idea) and a 'digital world' for the hacker to play across a map of various nodes to beat the clock, anti-virus, and sometimes other hackers. Thanks again for the puzzle box idea! (Got anything else?)

[@SSkorkowsky]

Wow. Well you took that idea and ran with it.That sounds freakin awesome as hell. Damn... Color me jealous, because that's brilliant.

[@Kevin-us4gj]

@@SSkorkowsky All thanks to your GM tips ;)

[@robertnett9793]

1:00 - DAMN YOU GRAVITY! Yet another innocent victim your relentless grasp demanded! When will someone stop this madness?!

[@thetattooedyoshi]

My first D&D session ever involved magic portals that would transport the party to seemingly the same room but across multiple places in time. One part we found a Minitaur that didn't seem to acknowledge our pressence, we stepped into the next portal and we came across a fighter who claims he's the champion who defeated the boss when 5-in-game minutes ago we were the ones that wound up killing it, and in another room there was a set of runes blocked by some flying eyeball creatures and a pool of acid that would rarrange the locations each portal would take the party to in order for us to successfully complete the mission. It was a really fun and interesting 1-shot with a really fun and interesting over-arching puzzle to it

[@StutleyConstable]

Puzzles used in the manner described sound like a very good option to using riddles. I have never been good at riddles, but something mechanical I can figure out.

[@CaronDriel]

I have a series of puzzles coming up in a session and I was stressing because I want both a test of intellect and a test of wisdom. I figured out a good thought puzzle for wisdom, but I couldn't think of anything for intellect. I didn't want to use riddles. But you've just solved my dilemma. There's a player in my group who is fantastic at Rubik's Cubes. Boom. And the idea is that the party needs to work together to solve them. None of them should be able to solve all the puzzles by them self. This guy probably wouldn't be able to solve the other puzzles, but he (and his character) could solve the Rubik's Cube super fast. He (the character) seems slow, but is very skilled at complex little mechanisms and odd structural things.

[@zjflorence]

Yep, this is great stuff. Best how-to GM channel for newbies like me.

[@daveshif2514]

I have that same puzzlebox and many from that company! Theyre the BEST!

[@The_Custos]

Brutal one I used from a pregen, puzzle involving a bridge and a summoning circle. Monsters keep coming in. Players damaged the means to solve it, tried to damage the summon circle, got separated and one was killed a giant constrictor before they broke it apart. Absolute bedlam. A player was furious.

[@questwise4077]

Thanks for this! I have been working on a Call of Cthulhu mini campaign that could really benefit from some good puzzles. This helped a lot!

[@Bluecho4]

Another way to prevent players from "short-cutting" your puzzle with the end of a warhammer is to make the _solution_ also be a clue to finding where the prize is located. The prize isn't _IN_ the puzzle box, but rather is somewhere that the solution would point to. Solving the box so it opens just indicates that your guess is correct. (Which means breaking the puzzle box only hurts your chances of finding the prize). Or you might have a cipher or coded message inside a letter, where the secret message is a clue to finding where the treasure is hidden. This could involve coordinates, or a named location the intended recipient of the letter would know about. Which could lead to the party needing to do more investigative work if they don't know the location indicated. Naturally, a coded message could appear anywhere, not just in a letter. A tomb robber from an earlier age might, for instance, have stashed a load of treasure in a particular sarcophagus, that they intended to retrieve later (and never did). Not trust themselves to perfectly remember the exact location - and not willing to try every sarcophagus in the tomb, on account of them all having hostile undead inside - they scratched a ciphered message into a stone surface and departed. Or they intended that a favored acquaintance should be able to find the stash if the robber could never go back, and the message is for their benefit (and was encoded to prevent anyone else from easily following directions).

[@339110001]

Getting the player directly involved with props is awesome, it enhances the gameplay. but it needs to be controlled. From some of the comments I've read that's what's being forgotten,

[@MarkLewis...]

It would have been great if when Seth opened the Hellraiser puzzlebox, he did one of his skits, and hookchains came out and then he turned in GM Pinhead!!! Damn budget issues.

[@immortalwolf3055]

as i stated below in a response the puzzle can by a physical prop and the players could roll for their characters with various checks etc and through that gain hints on how to open the puzzle. it would take around the same amount of time over all and it adds to the roleplay factor, also they have a physical prop that they can look at and hold. it makes that setting feel a little more real and they can get into their characters a little better. also this would be a great idea for those with some carpentry skills and a couple free hours of time here and there to build some simple puzzle items or more complex ones.

[@ShaneAddinall]

This could be a fun way to give your party items. Using the "pocket dimension" segment you used the seal could be locking a bag or container which turns out to be a bag of holding or some themed variation - which contains an item or weapon (level up to match the player level when they eventually solve it) and the container is now an item itself as well.

[@PossumMedic]

Awesome vid! :D Making puzzles and props is a HUGE reason I run TTRPG games! :D

[@ninjamaster9094]

What if you have multiple versions of the puzzle box, each with varying levels of difficulty, and you give them a puzzle box based on what they rolled. If they roll a 1 on it, they get a very difficult puzzle, while if they roll a 20, they get a very simple puzzle that anyone could solve.

[@remingtonsloan8331]

Thanks! I was just looking for this sort of thing. Do you have any minigames that you use, such as for gambling or other puzzle scenarios?

[@SSkorkowsky]

We had a weird run where in-game gambling became common. There was a casino/temple in "Secret of Bone Hill" that the PCs went to several times. Later, in Call of Cthulhu, the players got so into playing poker on a train ride that I had to cut it short in order to get back to the actual adventure. I've played a lot of "fun-house" style adventures like "White Plume Mountain" and "Tomb of Horrors" so puzzle adventures aren't uncommon. I used a puzzle box in one D&D game I wrote where the PC's were in a maze that changed shape every time the PCs got to a certain point.

[@remingtonsloan8331]

Thanks! I always try to have a gambling den somewhere in town, but most of my minigames are dice games or simulations of other games done by dice, and I'm getting bored with them. I try running the simulations like skill challenges though, where the players use different skills to cheat and get bonuses on their rolls. I might keep a deck of cards on hand and make black jack an option. I like the idea of the puzzle box that's a labyrinth. I've also added several "locked keys" style puzzles to my wish list; thanks for the link!

[@SSkorkowsky]

We never actually played poker. It was a simulation using "Fast Talk" as bluff and "Psychology" to see through bluffs, which gave bonus and penalty dice, all followed by a Luck Roll (I explain them fully in my Ilsley Variant review, but that's the short of it). The one in Bone Hill laid out the rules for a dice game the PC's played. We also used some Campaign Coins as chips. That added a bit to the fun, too, since they had to physically put something on the table to represent their money. Something like Blackjack could easily work because it's fast and simple.

[@jeremiahplaysWOW]

The most interesting puzzle I made was I wrote a message in draconic and then encrypted it, the encryption was just writing out thirteen letters on top and thirteen letters on bottom, the letter on top swaps with the one beneath it and vice versa, the DnD handbook has the language keys use this pattern and I started to get worried because they has the key right in front of them, but I ended up laughing my but off as they stared at the paper with the answer right next to them

[@stephblackcat]

I'm not overly fond of encounters that rely on the player's skills. The character is in my experience best when it is it's own being with skills radically different from the player. It's a fantasy play, a character who can do things you can't.

[@snate56]

Besides, I've known far too many players whose characters were far, far more intelligent than they were.

[@BanjoSick]

I see it the other way around, the more player skill being asked, the better. People should not waste their time just pretending being cooler than they are, but solving problems they can be proud of after the session

[@stephblackcat]

@@BanjoSick Let's try it this way, your akward basement dwelling cousin is playing the game with you. His character is a suave ladykiller of a bard who has max stats in charisma. Do you require every persuasion attempt for the player to come up with a perfectly coherent debonair quip like the character could despite the player not having the same specs? This is what I mean. If you force every interaction between the player and the character to be about the player's abilities then you might as well just not have stats and skills. A fun fantasy game can be constructed such that CHARACTER skill encounters can mak the PLAYER proud because it's about figuring out how to utilize the skillset of that character.

[@greenhatledzep]

Hi Seth, love the vid on engaging players with puzzles, but I want to find ways to engage my players in more "downtime" situations, i.e. tavern situations, casinos, or campfire RP. Can you please do a video on any mini-games you've used that we can play at the table, and how to play them? There's surprisingly very little content on actual detailed mini-games here on youtube, and reddit can get a little wordy. For example, the charlatan can have gamblers dice or a deck of cards, but how do you simulate poker, blackjack, or other games with dice? I think it would be a fun change of pace from time to time to have a night of gambling with my players.

[@339110001]

Liar's Dice, game played in The Pirates of the Caribbean. it's a quick fast dice game. kzbin.info/www/bejne/a5TVqXuempqVbdk

[@definitelyadarkangel9225]

I found your channel today. Really good content and advice. Subbed.

[@MaxWriter]

Nice. I think these puzzles would be harder for me as I run Call of Cthulhu pretty much exclusively. I love the idea of physical props though.

[@ClutchSituation]

Great video with strong tips. Thanks Seth!

[@Troommate]

3:48 +3 Hammer of Smashing is always a great go to :D

[@fireinthedust]

Serious request: lists of puzzles that can be given to players for this sort of thing, as a follow-up video. I tried using the game Operation to determine if Rogues actually avoided setting off traps, but (and I don't recall why) it didn't end up being a hit. I saw a LARP video where they had shapes you had to move a stick along without hitting the sides, and that would be a great option. Rubix cubes seem to be a talent for only a few, rather than a puzzle that anyone can attempt.

[@SSkorkowsky]

Check the links in the video description. With a Japanese-style box I wouldn't do more than a 7-step at the absolute most. 4-5 step would probably be ideal. For the Hanayama puzzles, they rank them Difficulty 1-6. I wouldn't do anything as simple as a 1, but 3 is the very highest I'd go. Anything above that might take too much time and detract from the game itself.

[@johanneskaiser8188]

This sounds like a really great idea. Unfortunately all my playing friends live all over the globe so we only ever can play using VTT. Come to think of it, does anyone here happen to know a virtual puzzle program or something to that effect?

[@ladybuzzkillington2072]

Im gonna buy a few puzzles for my Call of Cthulhu Campaign as well as make a cypher for them to solve for the answers they're looking for. Hoping to make this campaign so fantastic they never want it to end.

[@bryceevans2439]

Hey I have a question that maybe you could help me with, I'm developing a game and I need to create a character sheet. It can't be one that is already out but can be darn close I have the bulk I think but is there any way you could do a video highlighting the best way to go about creating a character sheet

[@GFCOLCQuote]

In my opinion, one thing puzzles users should do is give a raw Int or Wis check and you don't tell the ones who rolled well the answer, but rather instead if they roll sufficient enough you give them a slight hint. I know this is still putting rng into the mix, but it also allows us, the players, to benefit from the roleplay experience. For example, while it is possible that the stone brained barbarian can solve the puzzle, the fact that he may be smarter than me out of game when my character is 10x smarter in game takes away from the fact that this is a roleplay experience. It may be slightly unfair to give smarter characters an edge, but you're already giving out a puzzle box to someone who really tries his or her hardest yet is just inherently really bad at puzzles. They can, of course, relate this info to the whole group giving everyone a better chance to open the box, or keep it for themselves in order to gain the reward because they feel like that edge is all they needed to solve it. Edit: What are your thoughts on this?

[@SSkorkowsky]

It's not a bad idea. You know your players and you know how they'll likely respond to it. The first time I handed them a puzzle box to solve and get a command word out of, they dove for it and gleefully solved it. It was a huge hit. But.... those were MY players. YOUR players might feel that they deserve a hint for high stats. The biggest suggestion is to make sure the puzzle is simple enough that they CAN solve it without needing a hint or without it taking so long that it becomes a drag.

[@Panicagq2]

'Rabid Piranha' - I'll be stealing that!

[@noahegler9131]

Seth, what are your thoughts on houseruled alternatives to core mechanics like die rolls, such as implementing the Jenga system from Doom in D&D (if the tower remains standing, the check succeeds, if the tower falls, the check fails in a spectacular and hilarious fashion)

[@SSkorkowsky]

For some special occasion or "twist game", that could be fun. It'd really depend on how you use it.

[@ShadowPhoenix82]

Lol, after 4 videos I notice I've begun clicking like before watching the video, heh heh.

[@Fionor01]

Puzzle, riddle or even skill check should never be dead-end obstacle to story progress... but it is a great optional way to solve problem & gain some advantage.

[@christophercombs7561]

Puzzles have always been a miserable failure for our play group

[@janehuskmann1914]

For me, it'll be a Sokoban puzzle, that only allows 1 player at a time to try to solve it.

[@Grimmlocked]

I once had a room with four pillars each with some dwarven "runes" on it. Each pillar had the solution to the runes on the other pillars. It was a simple riddle on top of a simple replacement cypher. I have found layers of simple puzzles work better then difficult brain teasers.

[@curtwinterstein1067]

I also like an occasional magic trick. I used "The Haunted Key" one time and freaked everyone out... Another cool bit was I used an "Israeli Mossad Pen" to curse a player. (Disappearing / reappearing ink).

[@airesbattleblade732]

I like making more complex versions of Skyrim puzzles, instead of finding the corresponding picture to the pillar, I write a poem or song that gives clues to what to do. The one time I tried it it failed, but they also weren't very invested players so *shrug*

[@MisterAppleEsq]

I have that exact same Japanese puzzle box.

[@deathmetal926]

I have never seen puzzles work out, ever. Someone will either solve it in 2 seconds or the gm will have to give hint after hint after hint before someone finally figures it out.

[@rookieweeabo8575]

Love Puzzles! :D

[@BSE1320]

I actually stole a puzzle from the movie Die Hard With A Vengeance. Two containers. One was a five gallon container. One was a three gallon container. The puzzle was to put precisely four gallons of water in the five gallon container. Set the four gallons on a scale and a door would open. I thought it was a clever little puzzle that would be solved within five minutes. I had five players. *thirty minutes later* "No! NO! You can't fill the jug a fourth of the way up. IT HAS TO BE PRECISELY FOUR GALLONS!" "Oh come on thats bullshit, no way we can do that, you guys are thinking too hard. We can estimate it.* They estimated it. Failed to open the door. One tried to hold the jug on the scale while pouring water out of it to trigger the mechanism of the door. Failed. One tried to tinker with the scale to try to manipulate the gears. Crit failed, hand got stuck, pulled it out for 1 hp of damage. Strength check bashing the door. Failed. Inside I was laughing because the characters in the Die Hard movie were getting pissed at each other the same way. :D After about 45 minutes, I relented and showed them the puzzle. Yippie ki yay motherfucker.

[@nickl.7559]

Ay, I like the WWI tshirt. I have one just like it.

[@mavenrichards]

cool idea.

[@manlypedro75]

I had that japanese puzzle box... ppl took ages to work it out.

[@ipos9542]

0:43 his face😂😂

[@carpma11]

It’s all fun and games until someone figures out how to open it and summons the Cenobite to our dimension. Talk about a busted campaign!

[@thekalechipsvendetta]

Go Seth!

[@erc1971erc1971]

Another great way to keep your players from deciding to use the +3 hammer on the puzzle...its contents are fragile, mwhahahaha!

[@KuyVonBraun]

Hey a Total Chaos tshirt! Are you a punk fan?

[@SSkorkowsky]

Not as much now as I used to be. Picked that shirt up in '96 or '97 when they came through Dallas.

[@WarhavenSC]

**GM hands me Lament Configuration** Nope. Nope nope nope nope. NOPE. Every nope ever.

[@Rezkeshdadesh]

My solution to simply smashing open doors and/or chests was to put bottles of acid and/or alchemist's fire inside of them.

[@MaPleWoRlDOrder]

Just hand your players some level 10 puzzles and wait for them to finish

[@renjiabarai9785]

If you are into self crafting, i would advise GmScotty. He has done some tutorials for amazing self made puzzle or riddles.

[@morpheus7347]

Puzzleboxes are Hard to solve for a reason.

[@tristanbuckner1170]

Boy, that ain’t just any puzzle box, THATS THE LAMENT CONFIGURATION. PLEASE DON’T OPEN THAT.

[@SSkorkowsky]

Don't fear the box. It has such sights to show you.

[@joeltarnabene5026]

Seth, you don't have to make the password puzzle magic. With 5 English letters the number of combinations is 5^26 which equals 11 881 376 different combinations. It's safe to say that he won't be done in the morning :)

[@nathanmichael167]

I never like to take my PC characters out of the game. Though I am a fan of puzzles, and riddles. I find it important ot have a series of hints ready to provide to players who use creative magic and character rolls

[@marcar9marcar972]

Nathan Michael honestly I don’t think it’s that bad of an idea and I think it’s a good way to break up the pace

[@0hate9]

you didn't need a rule telling the player he couldn't try combinations all night: a 5-letter code has 26^5 possible outcomes, which works out to about 12 million possibilities. no player has the patience or time to work that out.

[@bureaucratbayonet]

Wow didnt realize this was such a polarizing topic I incorporated puzzles by my second or third game because I thought it was a cool idea If you dont like it dont use it simple I think all the hate is coming from people who cant solve a puzzle

[@nokomarie1963]

Huh. An idea.

[@Raggsocka]

Do NOT use props for any sort of explosives or weird looking devices with a visible timer. Specially not if you're playing at conventions. A SWAT team will get called and they have no respect at all for the social contract or for gaming in general.

[@nijimazero]

I don't really like when the players are the ones solving the problems the characters should be solving. Sometimes a player wants to play a character that is way smarter than them, it would make no sense for the 22 INT wizard to have trouble with a random $2 puzzle game you found at walmart. What I often do is that if players feel like their characters are smarter than they are they can simply roll an intelligence check (or whatever other check makes sense in the situation) instead. The reverse is true too. Yeah, you might have some clever ideas, but is your 5 INT half-orc barbarian smart enough to have those ideas ? Probably not. For me the characters and the players are different and the same way someone that is weak IRL can play a strong character, someone that is dumb can play a smart character.

[@SSkorkowsky]

The age-old argument that players aren't required to perform feats of strength at the table to represent their character's Strength means that a player with a smart character shouldn't have to bother themselves with thinking or players of high Charisma characters shouldn't be bothered to roleplay, simply resolving all of these with a single roll, sounds like the most boring players of all time. If the players resolve every obstacle through a die roll, in order to keep the separation of player and character purely distinct, then it is no longer role-play but roll-play.

[@nijimazero]

At my games there still is roleplay, my players still have to think by themselves and we overall still have fun, thanks for your consideration. Having a strict separation between players and characters doesn't make it less of a roleplaying game than not doing it. But it does allow players to play any character that they would like. For exemple if a player wants to seduce a NPC but is too insecure or embarassed to roleplay that scene in details, a simple "I buy him a drink. If he accept to talk with me I try to make him laugh, I tell a few joke and I try to make him talk about himself." is enough to roll a social skill and see what happens. I want my players to feel free to play anything even if they lack the skill to pull it out IRL or if they are not comfortable roleplaying it in details. It does not mean that they don't have to think or that we do not roleplay.

[@SSkorkowsky]

Roleplaying to the level of, "I buy them a drink, tell a joke, and tell them about myself" is perfect for me. That's putting thought into the approach. Afterwards they can make the roll to se how well the character pulled it off. They might get a bonus or 2 if they had a great approach. Far better than, "I want to seduce them," and rolling the die, claiming that their character's seduction skills are all that matters. As far as puzzles, that $2 Wal-Mart puzzle can be the representation of the elaborate puzzle that scholars have driven themselves mad over for decades. The key points are that it is a simple puzzle (no one in the room wants this to take too long), and that we can bypass it with time limits or something like a roll if need-be. It's ultimately intended to be an enhancement of the fun and not a hindrance to it. Also, never to be over-used. However, even Gandalf with his superior intelligence can get stumped by a simple word puzzle that a country hobbit could solve. Playing a dumb character I've found to be way more difficult than playing a super-genius one. Playing dumb PCs can be fun and funny, but can easily get frustrating after a few session for the player if they have to limit themselves. I'm more inclined to let the player figure out a puzzle first, and then we can make rolls to see how they character does. Having a situation where the player can see the solution to a problem, but they and everyone else is now stuck because their characters failed their rolls to figure it out, that's terribly frustrating.

[@nijimazero]

@@SSkorkowsky Yeah, I totally agree with all you just said. If a player only says "I want to seduce them" I will ask for more details, I will just not force them to go "full roleplay" if they are not comfortable with it. I also let players some time to figure out things by themselves. But I don't really like it when a player dump the INT of their character and then tries to play without limitation. I understand that it can be frustrating but for now all the players who played with me were ok with being limited by INT checks whenever I felt like their characters would be too dumb to have an idea that they had. On the side note to that, I also use INT checks to prevent player from doing stupid things or to drop them hints during an investigation scenario. Also, totally unrelated. I know your channel since a few years back, I didn't watch all of you videos but overall they are full pieces of advice and of interesting points of view on TTRPG so I wanted to thank you because I think you certainly helped me be both a better GM and a better player. Thank you for all the hard work

[@SSkorkowsky]

Honestly, I'm more than happy not getting too deep into seduction roleplay with my players. For some, it just gets weird and others we can't do it for long before we start giggling like idiots. thank you very much. I'm glad the channel has been helpful for you. My goal is that if I can't make it helpful I can at least make it entertaining. It's helped me a lot, as well, as I try to think about subjects from angles outside of my own limited experiences, as well as the regular interaction and discussions on various topics.

[@DualKeys]

As a player, I wouldn't like it if my GM gave me a puzzle box that I had to figure out myself (unless it just needs a combination that can be found in-game). This is the same reason I hate when people say, "If you didn't think to bring rope, then neither did your character." No. Just no. If I'm scatterbrained and forget stuff all the time, I shouldn't be stuck playing a character who always forgets stuff. Fantasy Flight's Star Wars rpg has a mechanic I really like where, if you really think your character should have remembered to bring something, you can roll your character's Vigilance to see if they actually remembered. So yeah, don't hand me a puzzle if my thief can't use his skills to open it.

[@Carlos-lc7jp]

/this thread on /tg/

[@FatedGamer]

I’m not a fan of puzzles as a player. Its boring and slows the game to a crawl when puzzles arent the focus of the game. Like one time as a quick solo thing my gm gave me a puzzle for what felt like no reason. Even though the person I was following wanted me to get in. The puzzle felt just like filler for the sake of filler. It came down to being 69 individual illussion spells on a message with 70 letters. But counting each letter in a sentance is just boring. I knew where she was going with it. It just didn’t feel fun. Stopping the game to figure out something out that feels exessivly 3rd wall breaking just is ruins it for me.

[@jordanpanda4490]

I've seen several comments on how real world puzzles or props can disconnect from the character in the game by not representing the character. I played an L5R game where we had to write haikus as part of a trial. I love poetry so I easily passed the test, even though my character wasn't really that smart or educated. Another player was playing a scholarly monk, but couldn't write a better haiku than "I like spring time, other months suck" and while it was good for a laugh, it wasn't representative of the character. This video seems hypocritical to the advice you've given multiple times of separation of player and character.

[@SSkorkowsky]

I'm a prop GM. I love handing all sorts of things to the players. Props can greatly improve immersion by giving players a hand-on experience. As I said in the vid, they're not for everyone, and should never be overused. A GM should know their players, and can judge how they'll be received. But above everything else, a Game Master is an entertainer. If handing your players the occasional puzzle or prop is something that enhances the players' overall enjoyment, then do it. In my experience, players have enjoyed mixing it up a bit and having me throw something weird at them from time to time. A large part of games are overcoming puzzles and obstacles in a way that's not simply rolling a die. Players might have to solve a riddle, or come up with a strategy on how to cross a room or enter a stronghold. The planning and problem-solving is a mental exercise and part of the game. The video is simply stating "Hand them a simple puzzle for something different and fun."

[@jordanpanda4490]

Seth Skorkowsky I get using props, I really like that. But props are a device to let the players better imagine what their character sees and hears, they are an analogy. But having a part of the game revolving around real world puzzle solving skills doesn't have anything to do with the in game character. It would be like making a bard's player play a song on guitar correctly to use a spell in game or making a thief's player climb a tree to break into a house in game; the player's skills as people have nothing to do with the character's abilities as heroes. If changes the focus then the PC is not playing the adventure anymore. A game should be: "Gragnar solved the evil riddle because of his cleverness and tools." Not "Mike solved the puzzle box because he plays sudoku on the bus."

[@SSkorkowsky]

There is a subtle difference between "Play this instrument" and "Solve this simple puzzle." I even said a GM should be able to solve it quickly with no experience or instruction just to be sure it's simple enough for the game. Real-world puzzle and problem-solving skills get used in-game all the time. Many pre-written adventures include puzzles such as "place the 3 gemstones on the 3 altars in the correct order" or the like. Players don't roll a dice for that. They tell the GM what stones they put where in what order and the characters suffer the consequences if they were wrong. That's a puzzle the players solve and not their dice. Off the top of my head White Plume Mountain, Tomb of Horrors, and Ravenloft were all First Edition D&D games that used the philosophy of giving the players a mental puzzle to solve that wasn't solved by dice. All 3 of those adventures have been converted and re-published for 5th Edition D&D. Entire game systems like Call of Cthulhu or Gumshoe are centered around the players being able to solve a mystery based off of clues they uncover. They don't just get the clues and roll and Intelligence check. The players solve the mystery. Also, the physical puzzle gag is something that I have done and gotten a great response from my players for doing. I've said, and repeated, that it isn't for everyone. But I've done it. It went well. So I'm telling others about it.

[@DummyUrD]

Let me say first that I love physical and out of game props and challenges, but I absolutely disagree with your point that you should award your players so they do these things. If you need to bribe your players to indulge these things you should not do them, they should be intrigued by these things intrinsically. If your group is like that don't give them out of game obstacles. A side note I do not say that you should not give them any benefits if they solve it just the reason is problematic to me.

[@marveltard]

I view it as just basic conditioning. First yoh nees to make sure they feel good after they complete a puzzle, then theyll feel good just anticipating the puzzle and completing it is a reward on its own. But yeah, there are people who kuat cannot with puzzles and even rewards wont outweight the frustration and will make it not worth it. So basically imo people either are already ok with puzzles and need a lil push, or they arent puzzle people period.

[@DummyUrD]

and step 3 is you ring a bell? lol :>

[@marveltard]

+DummyUrD make sure to give them bibs also, else its gonna be a mess to clean up

[@majikslim82]

I despise puzzles and elaborate traps. The always just seem cheap and time consuming. The slow the game way down and often are just a terrible annoyance at best. I much prefer the injection of mystery over a puzzle. This can be like a murder, a sense of being followed by someone in the shadows, or being watched. There can even some horror movie style things happening. It's much more interesting and fun to build and solve then a freaking stupid puzzle.

[@gnarthdarkanen7464]

So... you just want a puzzle that deals the "numbers game" through a list of suspects that your character can then utilize clues to dismiss as "impossible" until it narrows to two (or maybe three) whereupon you basically bet your character's life on the most plausible explanation when you accuse them in the courtly fashion in front of a Lord... Which as accords the generality of feudal law requires a sentence (usually death) imparted upon the accuser if that accusation is proven false. Rather than spend an evening describing explorations of a monstrous mechanism and it's strange and varied components while your character attempts to figure it out without disturbing too many of its internal workings for fear of getting caught by some peculiar cog or yanked through the works (either losing some or most of his or her HP in the process)... Sorry, but a puzzle game is a puzzle game. It's the elaboration of set-up and clarity of the GM's explanations that either do the job or fail. Nothing involved in traps or puzzles should be a "game mechanic tax" on resources or HP... At the same time, there is the reality, whether you like it or not, that someone with treasure they don't want you pawing through will likely employ some trappings or mechanical riddles to protect it. I've generally preferred mechanical riddling, since it would make sense for an intelligent enemy to have something like an elaborate combination lock to secure his or her stuff... AND the puzzles don't necessarily have to kill you if you don't successfully resolve them in a single try... Traps... well... I could go on an on about them, but they generally tend to have serious consequences when they're missed or left un-resolved by party members. :o)

[@FerreusVir]

Doesn't like puzzles, proceeds to describe a puzzle that they enjoy. This comment section is cancer.

[@The_Custos]

@@FerreusVir it's not cancer to say no, nor hypocrisy to say no to puzzles, but yes to some mysteries and pursuits. I like manipulation puzzles, and enjoy solving them, but would groan at numbers puzzles. Now that might be just what the wizard expected the dumb fighter to do. 🧙🏻‍♂️

[@FerreusVir]

@@The_Custos That wasnt what I was calling cancer - the original post is filled with it.

[@tonynarcosis2432]

How dare you use your character's skills to solve an in character problem.

[@draconicfeline6177]

I used a puzzle once but no one could figure out my ligic

[@clericofchaos1]

I have never considered using actual puzzles in dnd. I have never completed a rubiks cube without cheating, so I am sure as hell not going to toss one at my players and say "solve that in 5 minutes or everybody dies". real puzzles in dnd are a bad idea.

[@SSkorkowsky]

A Rubik's cube would be a terrible puzzle. Hence the reason I said a GM should be able to solve it themselves without instruction in a short time and why I suggested capping the time players will spend on it.

[@clericofchaos1]

yea but I have friends that can solve a rubiks cube in 30 seconds. by your logic if they dm a game they can throw the rubiks cube at people and if at the end of the cap everyone dies...oh well? I mean your first scenario was a room filling up with water and rabid piranha, you've got to know that without rolls anybody could have trouble solving a puzzle under that kind of pressure, and with only 1 object your players aren't each going to get a chance to try. I mean you mentioned giving them a passive puzzle that they can solve at their leisure and that's fine, but making solving a puzzle a matter of life or death is a bad idea.

[@SSkorkowsky]

I'm assuming your friends who can solve a Rubik's Cube in 30 seconds have seen a Rubik's before, practiced, or read the instructions. So by my logic, no, it shouldn't be used. There's also just the simple rule of common sense. If a puzzle is likely to take too long then a GM shouldn't use it, and if a puzzle does take too long the GM should bypass it with a time limit and get back to the game. So even if you are using one in a situation that would be life or death (like a room filling with water) if they don't solve it, the GM should be ready to bypass that if the players can't solve it in time. It can still result in lost HP or other costs, but nowhere did I say anything akin to, "Solve the puzzle or die."

[@clericofchaos1]

then why have it in at all? why even bother telling them about the lock when fred the barbarian can just use his portable ram and break the door down? it's faster, more efficient, and you don't need to spend money on a prop.

[@DarthMalnu]

I think that's why this really comes down to who's playing and what they want out of the game. To you the question is "why bother telling them about a lock when there's a faster and efficient way to get through?", and I think "if there's a fast efficient way through, why bother playing?". The good part is, there's no wrong answer, so if you don't think puzzles would work for your group, just don't use 'em! You let Fred do what he does best and smash the night away while I force Fred out of his comfort zone and feel uncharacteristically vulnerable, and maybe learn that he can be more than just a muscle. All that really matters is that we make sure Fred has a blast while doing it.

[@Nakata2021]

Seth... but the problem of this kind of puzzle is, it isn't the character solving the puzzle, it is the player. 3 times that I used a puzzle 2 was the barbarian 8 intelligence was the one who solve the puzzle.

[@userprime1907]

We don't expect players at the game table to actually battle trolls, dragons, sith, aliens or cthuhlu demons. Why should we expect them to solve actual puzzles? Traps and puzzles only exist in a game to highten the sense of drama, danger and urgency in a particular moment of the game. All encounters should be overcomeable (is that an actual word?). No one wants to play a game that punishes them for not being as smart in real life as their counterparts are in the game. Why would any one spend all that time researching the ideal thief build just to be stymied by something they can't solve in real life? Punishing your players by telling them that they won't get special rewards unless they jump through your hoops is a short fast road to being a gm with no players.

[@SSkorkowsky]

Well, two of my players have been playing with me since '99 and our "new guy" has been with us for 3 years. So I think I can say that the occasional puzzle hasn't chased away my players. I did mention it wasn't for everyone, and if it isn't for you, that's cool. But blanket statements about short fast roads to losing players is most certainly wrong.

[@userprime1907]

Seth Skorkowsky -- My statement wasn't about puzzles in general. It was about punishing players for failing real life puzzles by withholding special loots and xp bonuses in game. Using a real world puzzle as a prop is a great idea. However, even though a PLAYER can't solve a puzzle prop in real life, we need to remember that the player's CHARACTER should be able to solve it through game mechanics. Attempting to solve the puzzle prop in real life should be fun. Failure to solve it should not result in player frustration caused by withholding rewards. The whole purpose of the puzzle is to add flavour to the game. It should test a CHARACTER for a specific skill or knowledge or ability; not the PLAYER. For example, the PLAYER doesn't know elvish. The CHARACTER however certainly may. The player's bad roll could result in a bad translation by the character. I.E. the famous "speak friend and enter" from Lord of the Rings. Gandalf missed his die roll (to put it in game terms) and got a puzzle or riddle he couldn't figure out easily in spite of being the all wise Gandalf the Grey. Expecting a player to be as skillful and smart as their character is unfair. As for sweeping blanket statements, if a gm consisently frustrates their players with unfair challenges and punishes them in game for a lack of real life skills or knowledge, those players will stop playing with that gm and find another one. If the gm allows them to attempt a solution to a puzzle prop in real life and through game mechanics, and doesn't consistently present unfair challanges, then that gm will be hailed a hero. It's not just sweeping blanket statements, it's true. No one likes to be cheated or treated unfairly. No one likes to be made to feel inadequate. It's just not fun. Ultimately, the reason we all come together to play a game is to have fun.

[@immortalwolf3055]

you sound like you suck at solving puzzles, has someone presented you with a puzzle and you failed? one way you could run a puzzle is to have it as a simple prop and let the players roll for their checks etc and on a high roll you tell the pc that they have noticed something related to the answer to the puzzle. your just also giving them a physical prop that allows them to visualize what the dm/gm is describing. props can go a long way to helping along an adventure, it is just a matter of how you choose to use them. seth was just offering possible advice in this video he was not saying "hey you, use this if you know whats good for you" just like with rules its merely an offering of possible options in a game.

[@The_Custos]

As a dm, I will say they can also be too lethal, too hard, but they go way back in dnd, and prop puzzles go back to the earliest TSR adventures. The real person does intrude and have an impact in gaming, like playing with a charismatic person, but puzzles force a pass or look stupid check.

[@MrJtaylor1981]

Puzzles that remove the characters abilities do more harm than help by creating resentment and favoritism.

[@gnarthdarkanen7464]

My personal rule on this is that I can allow a single ability or "cheat" to be warded away. Other "special abilities" may have consequences, but are (or should be) allowed. For instance, a lock... is perfectly fine (if not expected) to have some protection against thieves' picks. Maybe not so much on the regular run-of-the-mill variety, but past a certain level, there's always something to expect like that... BUT it won't stop the mage from embuing the rogue with TK (for instance) so he can use his expert understanding to manipulate the inside of the lock anyway... (might not really BE unique, but the kind of teamwork I can rally for as a GM)... The real trick is the balance for the in-game experience. There should be occasions (sooner or later) where it suddenly doesn't "feel" so important that you're SUPER for a moment. It grounds the characters in the scene and reminds us (players) for just a short time of our own very tangible and relatable struggles. :o)

[@warsteve8244]

DO NOT THE KEPER NEEDS TO BE ABLE SOLVE THE PUZZLES

[@Dedmaroz69]

For god's sake man, normalize your sound, your every video I have to adjust sound 20 times