USN F-14A Tomcat vs. F-16N Adversary Air Combat Training Mission

2 x F-16N vs. 2 x F-14A Tomcats
The U.S. Navy acquired 22 modified Block 30 F-16s for use as adversary assets for dissimilar air combat training (DACT); four of these were TF-16N two-seaters. These aircraft were delivered in 1987-1988. Fighter Squadron 126 (VF-126) and the Navy Fighter Weapons School (NFWS) (or TOPGUN) operated them at NAS Miramar, California on the West Coast; East Coast adversary training squadrons were Fighter Squadron 43 (VF-43) at NAS Oceana, Virginia and Fighter Squadron 45 (VF-45) at NAS Key West, Florida. Each squadron had five F-16N and one TF-16N, with the exception of TOPGUN which had six and one, respectively. Due to the high stress of constant combat training, the wings of these aircraft began to crack and the Navy announced their retirement in 1994. By 1995, all but one of these aircraft had been sent to the 309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group (AMARG) for preservation and storage; one F-16N was sent to the National Museum of Naval Aviation at NAS Pensacola, Florida as a museum article. As adversary aircraft, the Navys F-16Ns were notable for their colorful appearance. Most Navy F-16N aircraft were painted in a three-tone blue and gray "ghost" scheme. TOPGUN had some of the more colorful ones: a three-color desert scheme, a light blue one and a green splinter camouflage version with Marine Corps markings. VF-126 also had a unique blue example.
In 2002, the Navy began to receive 14 F-16A and B models from the Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Center (AMARC) that were originally intended for Pakistan before being embargoed. These aircraft (which are not designated F-16N/TF-16N) are operated by the Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center (NSAWC) / (TOPGUN) for adversary training and like their F-16N predecessors are painted in exotic schemes.

[@harrisn3693]

2:45, That rapid banking is epic, let alone the engine roaring! 🚀😍😍😍

[@miniena7774]

Harris Naseem “...let alone the engine roaring!” is an incongruous and incoherent clause.

[@hotcakesism]

@@miniena7774 No u

[@ronaldkonkoma4356]

There's an A4 doing airshows and the roll at the break is SICK

[@kayakutah]

Each pilot would fly maybe 7 sorties per week. Sometimes you'd go out in the A-4E and sometimes in the F-16. Occasionally you'd get the TA-4 for a sortie but it had the bigger engine in it, so it wasn't too bad. Each flight was about 1.2 hours with a prebrief for an hour and then a debrief that usually took about 30 minutes.

[@norman191000]

thanks for info - and how long this 7 sorties/week drill took - months? years? It is amazing how dense is modern pilot's training. In comparison to battle of england pilots, for example (10 days total, sometimes)

[@kayakutah]

@@norman191000 Sorry it took so long. Years. Looking at my logbook, I got 10 to 20 sorties (flights) per month. They usually were 1.2 hours or so as an adversary and more like 1.8 in the Tomcat. In September of 1985, I got 24 flights for 54 hours. That was extremely unusual. That month was flown from CVN-65.

[@rogermahajan7586]

Watch the whole movie. This was the part where students were being trained in F-14 against the aggressor squadron in the F-16N (stripped out F-16s). Later on, an ACE pilot in the F-14A dogfights an A-4 and F-16N. He gets gun kill on both in a turning fight.

[@flyingmaxQ]

I want to see a F14 get a turn fight against a F16 :o

[@rogermahajan7586]

@@flyingmaxQ From this same movie, you can search the video of 2 F-14s vs F-16N (Navy stripped out version) and A4 Mongoose. The two F-14s get into turning fights with the A4 and F-16N. Get kills on both the F-16N and A4. You can hear the F-14 pilot in wince in pain as he is pulling very Gs against the F-16N.

[@taylorc2542]

The goal here is to teach the F-14 pilot, but with equal drivers the F-16 would mop the floor with the Tomcat in a no-holds-barred contest.

[@TonymanCS]

@@taylorc2542 Top aggressor F-16 jocker vs Top F-14 pilot (as described by OP), what else do you want?

[@Eleolius]

@@taylorc2542 Not necessarily. Tomcat has quite a few advantages over the 16 especially in a sustained turn fight. Even with same skill pilots, each plane can beat the other in WVR with the right situation.

[@fixizin]

That is JUICY duty... for the pilots. For the maintenance crew, not so much, lol. :D

[@scottycatman]

I have juicy duties everyday. The maintenance crew doesn't like all the wiping involved.

[@BoleDaPole]

Well then they should've tried harder and became pilots 😎

[@alexandrebueno6458]

I had this whole doc.. Unfurtunately deleted it... Great videos.

[@SilverandButters]

+Alexandre Bueno what documentary is this?

[@alexandrebueno6458]

The name was "Dog fight tatics". It showed battles between F16 and A4, F-16 and F-14 and F-15 and F5. I searchead on youtube and over the net but didn't find it anymore.

[@EvMstein]

What have you done..

[@tylerhyvonen8036]

Ffs alexandre

[@willmorrell488]

No Bueno!

[@santipareraarmengol2498]

I'm always trying to understand which are the rules in this training. What is considered as a kill? There's a world of things you can do after the enemy has launched you a missile (and also more with current jets), and how they train the use of the gun?

[@623-x7b]

looks like fun

[@tl4633]

That was cool.

[@gtamodman122]

How often did these flights take place?

[@SHDF14]

Hi, may I ask what’s the original source of this film?

[@ummonk]

The pilot can certainly make a difference, but it's still much harder to beat an F-16 with an F-14 WVR, as the F-16 simply has much better instantaneous and sustained turn rates.

[@FS2K4Pilot]

You sure about that? Hoser Satrapa once topped one out at twelve G's, and during the F-14's demo for the Shah of Iran, the F-14 initiated an 8.5 G, 360 degree level turn, entering the maneuver at 350 knots, and exiting at 400, using TF30s to boot.

[@rogermahajan7586]

Watch the whole movie. This was the part where students were being trained in F-14 against the aggressor squadron in the F-16N (stripped out F-16s). Later on, an ACE pilot in the F-14A dogfights an A-4 and F-16N. He gets gun kill on both in a turning fight.

[@Galf506]

@@rogermahajan7586 the truth is that in a slow turnfight the F-14 pilots has to be above perfection while the F-16 pilot has to make mistakes. It's just not their territory. The recent DCS release really shows how much of a handful is the F-14 in dogfights, the mystique built around the Tomcat really blew its capabilities over the top: it was amazing it its ability to do everything well, but it wasn't meant to out-dogfight purebred dogfighters like the F-16 (or MiG-29). The Tomcat was the only plane capable to engage simultaneously 6 targets in true BVR at ranges we're barely reaching today with advanced variants of the AIM-120. Nobody could match that, and the Tomcat could also be really close in performance to smaller, more nible aircraft in the WVR arena. That's huge, but don't let it make you believe that the Tomcat wasn't at a disadvantage.

[@kayakutah]

@@FS2K4Pilot Where are you getting this stuff? The corner velocity of the F-14, at 6.5 G's is about 320 KIAS. And you have to be about 15 degrees nose low in order to maintain that airspeed in the turn.

[@getsideways7257]

@@Galf506 True that. People believing the Tomcat can ACM anything watched too much Top Gun, apparently. The thing is an overweight monstrosity that could compete with transports in the mass department. Sure, enough wing area offsets that somewhat, but seriously thinking of fighting an F-16 up close is a pipe dream. Of course, there will always be the cases where F-14 still prevails, but that's due to the pilots skill difference only (or some induced limitations).

[@4rct1c9Ic3m4n]

What's the hard deck for this hop?

[@TowGunner]

That was some of the best flying I've seen yet. Right up to the part where you got killed. You never, never leave your wing man.

[@stijnvandamme76]

Biggest joke of the movie. the Hard deck is the ground... you cannot go through the ground, hence "hard" deck The lower limit above ground for training.. is the soft deck.. eg, the one that you aren't allowed to go through.. but Can. And.. if Jester really had gone for the deck to escape Maverick.. That would implie he was maneuvered into the ground by his opponent, which counts as a kill for Maverick... Maverick didn't even have to shoot to win..

[@andyaim4764]

Corner speed was great at the beginning but down to 250 in the final part

[@Eleolius]

A gun shot usually requires a lot of AoA, thus dumping speed. Also it pays to not overshoot. You corner speed until you can pull lead to shoot the bad guy. You do not hold corner all the way through. Also in second flight his wingmate was defensive. A quick rescue kill was needed. Corner speed is not really the main concern when a deflection shot on a giant F14 tomcat is needed fast.

[@Knightfang1]

TheFlyingSquirrel the Tomcat was probably trying to get slow. Below about 300 knots with his wings full out, the tomcat will out turn a viper, but above 400 knots the viper will out turn the tomcat

[@trenchXspike]

it's about whether or not the pilots can out -fight- them.

[@falken_gt4]

"Oh shit, it's Viper!"

[@kayakutah]

Yeah, also we were hitting the g limit of 9.3 Gs quite regularly, as long as it was symmetrical and not caused by flying through jet wash it was no problem. I once went to write up a 10 G over-stress but was told that the airplane would allow that under certain circumstances and it didn't count as an over-stress. Oops, apparently hundreds of them add up!

[@dr.gmansaturng5228]

G's don't bother me .

[@jarhead1145]

Dr. G Man Saturn G except when your air frame cracks in half.

[@FS2K4Pilot]

kayakutah F-14s have hit twelve Gs on occasion.

[@charlesklimko492]

@@FS2K4Pilot How do the pilot, and / or the Naval Flight-Officer, not pass-out when their aircraft is pulling 12-Gs?

[@Galf506]

@@charlesklimko492 sustained g's vs instant g's. Your body can take even 14g for an istant, it just feels like shit, but you cannot sustain them. 9G's sustained will black you out.

[@kevinghostneedham7928]

Nothing beats a F-16 baby.

[@andreabindolini7452]

an F-15

[@onblock7]

True. Who said they could?

[@whalehands4779]

I want to know if there ever was a trainee who beat the f16n

[@hgrgic]

@pR05t0 BVR fight is always a huge risk.. you just cant be always sure what you`re shooting at, so pilots neeed to train VVR fighting (dogfighting)

[@gpdude22]

Did you mean "WVR" there, professor?

[@ihsanollasalamziy628]

@@gpdude22 chill bruh it was 9 years ago😂😂😂

[@kayakutah]

I helped break them. we'd meet the F-14s at the Yuma range, run them out of gas and then fight one v one guns only until we ran out of gas. I'm surprised the wing boxes lasted as long as they did, in retrospect!

[@gregoryrush1643]

really? those wing boxes have been dug out of craters still intact after a crash.

[@MattH-wg7ou]

Are you saying you flew F16s v F14s but they Bingod out first?

[@Eleolius]

@@MattH-wg7ou Could happen. F14 has two big afterburners. If the 16 got a dominant position and needed less burner, it could happen. Though there is no comparing the 14 and 16 in combat radius.

[@FITHRI1000]

how if Mig-29 vs Tomcat ?

[@helmetless]

Tomcat wins BVR, Fulcrum wins WVR

[@johnkerrigan9216]

I guess at the 30 mile range where thF16s see the F14s , the F14 disnt1 have any Phoenix missiles.....

[@FS2K4Pilot]

No, they're not using them. They're practicing dogfighting, and shooting the Gomer in the lips at thirty miles kind of defeats that purpose.

[@solterovazquez9264]

Russia power

[@unapro3]

@@FS2K4Pilot I think that is the point he was making. the F14's card trick was the Phoenix missile, putting an F14 up against an F16 in a "guns" fight is like a running a 100 yard race with a sprinter and a marathon runner.

[@FS2K4Pilot]

unapro3 Not really. A marathon runner would certainly have enough energy to compete in a few quick sprints, and the F-14, when properly flown, can be more than a match for even an F-16.

[@Eleolius]

Being honest the 16 could press, and Amraam at 20 to 25 miles just fine. Tomcat has to visual ID. Even with its camera it would struggle to id an 16 a 30 nmi. By 20 in an Amraam vs phoenix shot, the Tomcat is far more likely to be hit than the 16. 16 is smaller and better able to pull g to notch a missile like the Phoenix. And Amraam is more agile as a missile. Phoenixes were an anti cruise missile and bomber missile with secondary anti fighter ability. The Cat typically preferred its Sparrows and Sidewinders for that job.. And in mid range BVR the Amraam is king. It would likely hit the Cat well before the phoenix could accelerate to the F16. Possible trade of course. But I would bet money on the F16 majority of the time in real world conditions if ROEs were followed for BVR.

[@phouvanvihaphat5679]

Mi hijo se trajo la remera del ejército paraguayo mezclado con colombianas

[@gtamodman122]

I find it hard to believe that Navy f16Ns were so short lived.I cant understand how the wings cracked, other countries have been putting their block 30s through similar stresses and yet theyre still flying.

[@FS2K4Pilot]

The difference is when you're doing three or four ACM hops a day every day. Tends to run down the fatigue life very quickly.

[@SAVikingSA]

@@FS2K4Pilot it's the little things that most people don't realize the American military goes through, but those that do understand why we're the only superpower. Carrier ops are no joke and we're running multiple groups of them 24/7 365

[@nabilbudiman271]

their airframes overstressed to the point it starts cracking, and unlike Air Force, the Navy have limited Vipers in their inventory and doesn't have enough budget to repair it or salvaging from another aircraft. And since the Pakistani Block 15 got embargoed, they decided to use them instead

[@pR05t0]

thought tomcats have higher weapon range than f-16?

[@danielpassmore5026]

pR05t0 f16 has aim120s.

[@murphnturph2664]

@@danielpassmore5026 AMRAAMs don't have 150nmi range though.

[@rossmum]

@@murphnturph2664 Nor do Phoenixes, if you want them to actually hit anything. They were designed to kill bombers, outside 30ish miles you're not likely to hit a fighter unless he's braindead.

[@gtamodman122]

And stupid me thought countries that lifted them off for intercepts stressed them more lol.No wonder these broke down so soon.

[@rogermahajan7586]

Students vs trainers. F-16N were adversary fighters simulating MIG-29s in the 80s. Yes, F-14 can win a turning battle due to better lift/drag ratio and the variable geometry wings offering more lift across a broader speed range. Here is a proper dog fight of a well trained F-14 pilot taking down both Mongoose A4 and an F-16N kzbin.info/www/bejne/d3zNXoCwr9ebnck

[@kayakutah]

Just looked at it. 2 F-14's Vs. an F-16 and an A-4. The F-16 was killed with a sidewinder, then #2 (one of the F-14's) was called a kill. It sounded like the fight ended with a "rocks kill". Someone broke the hard deck and died.

[@joemd7775]

@@kayakutah Here is the entire unedited version of that ACM dogfight: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l4m7Z3ecd650j5Y At 20:42 of the video, according to one of the F-14 pilots, it was a 2 on 1 versus the F-16N. Here is a VF-126 tribute video. They were great- kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZqfQpJeOfLGBjcU

[@jack_of_all_trades_master_none]

Phoenix would have busted their ass in BVR. Vipers never should have gotten within 15 miles

[@getsideways7257]

That missile was only good if your target is flying level and steady.

[@brownj2]

@@getsideways7257 Wrong.

[@getsideways7257]

@@brownj2 If it's that good, where are these missiles now? Missiles are junk in general, but that kind of a "Maverick gone AA" missile is especially so. But of course there is this kind of immature audience that measures the cars and aircraft performance based on the top speed and the missiles performance based on the maximum reach...

[@canopy9244]

@@brownj2 He's right but actually missing the point. The Phoenix was pretty much a complement to AWG-9 radar. The AWG-9 had great TWS capabilities, and when coupled with the Phoenix and it's straight-up flight path (Most aircraft's RWR can't see above the aircraft) meaning the enemy wouldn't even know it was coming until it was too late. They typically only got a warning that something was coming until last second meaning, even if they tried to evade it, it most likely would hit anyway. The primary reason they aren't around anymore, is because they were built for the F-14. And the F-14 isn't around anymore so why have the missiles if they don't have the aircraft.

[@TowGunner]

The Phoenix is credited with 62 air-to-air kills, all scored by Iran during the long Iran-Iraq War. Training is one thing, in real combat, those F16s would have been taking a dirt nap.

[@elbronco80]

Pilot needs to recharge his jet. His battery icon under the altitude indicator on the HUD is showing almost dead

[@19Clutch69]

Student pilots versus instructor pilots

[@KB4QAA]

Actually they are fleet pilots who are students at the school. Not undergraduate student pilots.

[@AKlover]

Makes you wonder how much easier A time an F-14 B-d would have had with the upgraded engines???

[@DelfinoGarza77]

Yahoo !!! Maverick is dead !!!

[@F15ElectricEagle]

Defense Department regrets to inform you your sons are dead because they were stupid.

[@stijnvandamme76]

video shows pilot with fire wall behind him. So that's an F5, not a Tomcat or F16

[@marious2k]

The Student still had something to learn,,,,,yea, dont put a F14 up against a F16.

[@FS2K4Pilot]

Either Snort or Hoser could've eaten those Vipers for breakfast 1 v 2 in an F-14.

[@taylorc2542]

@@FS2K4Pilot WIth equal pilots, the F-16 will win 90% of the time.

[@FS2K4Pilot]

Taylor C I wouldn't bet on that. All models of the Turkey have equal or lower wing loading than the Viper, can supply equal or higher G loads, if the crew can stand it, and the B/D models were only about 5% slower in terms of acceleration and climb rate. Also, the 14 is capable of decoupled maneuvers that would give the F-16's FCS a conniption. The 14 also has twice as many eyes, four times as much internal fuel, and passive sensors like the TCS and IRST that limit the advantage of the F-16's small size. If the F-14 loses, it won't be because the aircraft wasn't up to it.

[@taylorc2542]

@@FS2K4Pilot Naw, not with equal pilot quality.

[@FS2K4Pilot]

Taylor C What does equal pilot skill have to do with anything I said?

[@CoyoteOne]

Tomcat wins a turning fight 100% of the time. Once they learn how much that plane will give them they get more comfortable

[@roijoi6963]

1 turn only, then its a big, heavy, wallowing pig with too much weight & drag and not enough power. See you on the deck.

[@265justy]

Wins turning fight 100% off the time against an F-16.!!! 😂What the heck you smoking?? 😅

[@briang1561]

F14 is just big. Need a better rio. Keep the jinking so you can keep a low profile. Fly the 🥚 and have a wing man.

[@pR05t0]

@Ganjamule ok that may be, but then the F-16's only win because of their better maneuverability . tomcats would win using phoenix missiles.. but now both, the tomcat and the phoenix missile are retired ... its a pity

[@getsideways7257]

"Only"? Maneuverability is almost everything a fighter jet should be about. AGM-54s are only effective against non-maneuvering targets anyway.

[@Fox-One1937]

Real dcs

[@gpdude22]

In DCS, "Splash" means "Splash".

[@davidca96]

F-14's arent built to beat an F-16, its no surprise.

[@KLRGT500KR]

As said in many comments, it is student pilots training against adversary squadron F-16 Navy versions piloted by instructors and former F-14 pilots. It is only for training purposes and these F-16Ns had been stripped out to make the training difficult for the F-14 pilots. The whole movie contains a 2 F-14 vs A4 and F-16N dogfight with A.C.E pilots. The two F-14s take out both the F-14 and A-4 in a turning fight. With the right pilot, the F-14s especially the B/D with 60,000 lbfs of thrust were highly capable of taking out the F-16s.

[@taylorc2542]

With equal pilots, it was "no contest" for the F-16.

[@FS2K4Pilot]

Taylor C You keep saying that, and not backing it up.

[@taylorc2542]

@@FS2K4Pilot More than one aggressor pilots have said as much, going so far as to call it "no contest". Plus it's just common sense when you look at the F-16s performance.

[@FS2K4Pilot]

Taylor C What pilots said this, and when? What pilots were they facing? What version of the Tomcat were they flying? Yes, the F-16's performance is impressive, but the F-14's performance matches or exceeds it in almost all areas. The F-14B/D is only three seconds slower accelerating from 200 to 600 knots; the F-16 climbs at 50,000 ft/min, and the F-14B/D does 48,000; the F-14 can pull 12 Gs if it really tries, the F-16 can't (damn that FBW system!); the F-14 can sustain 8+ Gs, vs. the F-16's 9 (and the F-16 can only sustain 9 Gs under very limited circumstances); the F-14 has better slow speed handling, and can use differential thrust to improve it even more; and the F-14 has far higher positive and negative alpha limits.

[@Fox-One1937]

Air force beat the navy

[@gpdude22]

Those F16 aggressors are Navy and Marine Aviators.

[@memoirsofthemisunderstood8761]

See, Air force better then Navy.

[@DKtube81]

Than

[@Power5]

pretty sure this was navy on navy so...

[@phouvanvihaphat5679]

Soy como una tiza y borrador en la escuela mi tatuaje tengo tatuaje y me lo borro cadas vez me cambio de tatuaje

[@KLRGT500KR]

The F-14 pilots trained well against the F-16N to take on the MIG-29s. They were used to train F-14 pilots on how to dog fight against a lighter, smaller, less powerful, slower and more manoeuvrable fighter. The F-16's ability to turn at 28 degree/second was easily neutralized by the F-14's ability to set targets at 45 degrees. The F-14A version had no issues against the F-16N. The F-14D were just on a different planet with the most powerful GE-110 engines and the most advanced glass avionics, LANTRN pods etc.

[@kayakutah]

Completely incorrect.

[@FS2K4Pilot]

I doubt that, K. The B/D could out-G the F-16 by over 30% (damn, but its sweet NOT having an FBW system to tell me what I can't do!), and was only about 3 seconds slower accelerating from 200-600 knots.

[@Vardeth805]

An F-14 should never beat an F-16 in BFM. Ever. In ACM, tactics can help create the solutions to defeat the F-16, as it is far superior in almost every category save for top speed.

[@FS2K4Pilot]

You post makes no sense. In your first sentence, you say the F-14 should never beat an F-16, then in your second sentence you say tactics can create solutions to beat the F-16, but then you say the F-16 is far superior to the F-14. Which is it?Also, your assessment of the F-16's superiority is suspect depending on which variant of the F-14 you compare it to. The F-14B/D has better wing loading, better slow speed handling, equal or higher available G, and only slight disadvantage in acceleration and climb rate.

[@danielpassmore5026]

Ventura your not very smart huh? In a low speed turning fight you think f16 wins? If F16 gets behind f14 all he has to do is go vertical.

[@trav1971]

F14 cannot out maneuver a f16 lol,out run not out fly

[@FS2K4Pilot]

Yeah, sure.

[@rogermahajan7586]

Wrong. Here you have an actual properly trained F-14A pilot defeating the F-16N in a tight left hand turning battle. F-14 had tremendous advantage with the variable geometry wings kzbin.info/www/bejne/d3zNXoCwr9ebnck

[@LRRPFco52]

@@rogermahajan7586 Keep in mind the FWS Instructors flew at least 5 different fighter type profiles with the F-16N: Su-27 MiG-29 MiG-23 MiG-21 MiG-17 When flying the MiG-17 profile, they just kept it out of burner, so given that this was a 2v2 with F-14s vs A-4 and a Viper, there's a good chance the Viper (Instructor pilot) was flying a limited profile. Even a last week student pilot is not going to be able to defeat an Instructor pilot in the F-16N if the instructor is flying the F-16N to full capability, whereas an end-of-course student pilot in an F-16N (if they had been trained in it) could defeat an Instructor in the F-14 because of F-14 limitations. Senior F-14 pilots who also flew the F-16 adversary said for ACM, they would choose the F-16 without second thought. The real emphasis at TOPGUN was the initial BVR fight, followed by ACM, even in the early days with the F-8J and F-4B.

[@getsideways7257]

@@LRRPFco52 Indeed. Trying to outmaneuver a Viper with a Tomcat is like trying to beat a GT3 car with a Kamaz rally truck. F-16 was made with ACM in mind, while F-14 was meant to shoot down unsuspecting aerial targets from afar.

[@getsideways7257]

@Joshua N. Ajang Pretty much. Also anti-ship cruise missiles, Backfires and other not extremely maneuverable aircraft.