USS Phoenix / ARA General Belgrano - Pearl Harbor Spectator to South Atlantic Predator

[@Drachinifel]

Pinned post for Q&A :)

[@themanformerlyknownascomme777]

You've talked quite alot about alternative versions of the British Fleet for the Falklands war, but how would the Argentine Navy's responce have changed in thouse senerios? Would poor old Phoenix have even bothered sailing out of Port if the Royal Navy fleet had a Malta and/or Hood and/or KGV and/or one/both Tiger class cruisers. And in any of thouse senerios would the Royal Navy have opted to use a different vessel to send the Argentine Navy's forces to the bottom?

[@augustosolari7721]

Considering that the ships of the line of the 18th century were of fairly standard design even across different navies, why did the designs of battleships of different navies vary so much from the 19th century onwards? Even the dreadnought battleships of each nation varied considerably. Why was the ship-of-the-line rating system so universal? And why has there been so much variety ever since?

[@Tom_The_Cat]

During your Pearl Harbor series, you mentioned some of the things the Navy learned by way of damage control. Ships returning from battle with horrifying damage, sailing halfway across the ocean in reverse, and so forth. Will those stories and stories like them get a dedicated video? Are there any stories like that from other Navies?

[@shuttheheckupkarl6153]

I was in a wikipedia rabbit hole and I found myself on the page for linoleum, and there was a section talking about how heavier grades of linoleum are called "battleship grade" because they were used on American warships (and on British ships it was called "cortisone") in the enclosed spaces of deck instead of wood, and were replaced after pearl harbor because they were considered too flammable. How (if at all) true is this? And if true, why?

[@Cbabilon675]

Definitely sounds like we need a full episode on just the USS Phoenix and her history in World War ii. Looking forward to it😊😊

[@RCAvhstape]

This is a sneaky way to get Drach to discuss post-1950s era naval combat lol.

[@HoldenOversoul]

I Can't wait to watch this. My grandfather served on Phoenix for her entire career as a US Cruiser. He was on her the day she commissioned in Philadelphia in 1938, all the way through WWII until she was put in reserve. Thank you SO much for doing a video on her. I was very young she was sunk, but I'm told he was very upset when he found out what happened to her. He thought she'd been scrapped decades earlier. As an aside, he hated MacArthur, who often used Phoenix as his flagship.

[@jereferreira5086]

I dont know your grandfather (in fact i am Argentinian) but only The fact that ,He being a soldier hated Macmid make me say that you have a very wise and god grandfather

[@wolftamer5463]

Post war careers of WW2 ships can be really interesting.

[@tehllama42]

If you count the steel from the scrapped ships, that can still apply (even in the cases where ships should definitely not have been scrapped)

[@MoA-Reload...]

Sad end to a great ship. I still don't get the controversy around her sinking though. She might have been old but she was still a very real threat to the RN task force and everything the British had to go on screamed incoming attack. And even if there was an order for her to withdraw and return to port, last time I checked opposing sides in War don't share the orders they've been issued with each other. If you don't want to lose ships and lives of your sailors, don't go to war. RIP those brave crew, soldiers & pilots that did their duty and didn't get to return home.

[@johnathanh2660]

The controversy rests with the 'Total Exclusion Zone', and that the GB was sailing away from it. What people forget, is that the TEZ related to CIVILIAN ships. A state of war existed between Argentina (govt, a dictatorship incidentally) and Britain (govt). Which meant that the ENTIRE state apparatus was 'in play'. That includes politics, resources sent to the South Atlantic, AND other resources worldwide. Now why is this significant? Well, the Spanish police picked up some Argentine commandos planning to attack dock facilities in Gibraltar. This wasn't a war crime, it was totally within the rules of war. Equally the Argentine military could have chosen to attack ships at dock at Portsmouth. tl;dr - Argentina and the British were free to engage militarily, globally. Now back to the TEZ. This was designed to stop the Argentines hiring a, say, Panamanian ship, throwing a load of troops in civvies on board, with 'interesting' cargo and using it to resupply the FI. It was simply a blockade of NEUTRAL, civilian ships. Nothing more. Apologies if this isn't news to you, but when I post this I find that people are often surprised. Argentine sailors have often commented that the sinking of the GB was simply just an 'act of war', as regrettable as it was.

[@wierdalien1]

Captain of the Belgrano has said mulitple times that if he was in the sub commanders shoes hed have done same

[@lastfreethinker6810]

The British also lied after the sinking giving the appearance of duplicity in that they were trying to cover their ass with their actions versus the total exclusion zone.

[@MoA-Reload...]

Thank you for the replies. I understood what the TEZ was but yt comments section so poor wording on my part. Wasn't aware of the situation with Spanish police and Gibraltar though so thank you. I can't help but have flash backs to primary school when kids would change the rules on the fly when they start losing at dodgeball or something when it comes to the way some look at this part of history.

[@hansvonmannschaft9062]

@@wierdalien1 This. What this gentleman said. It's true, the captain did say that. The whole controversy was more of a propaganda/journalism/pot-stirring move. The whole South Atlantic conflict, albeit brief, was one of a kind in many ways. Probably one of the last times where old values were seen. If you see the surrender pictures, you'll see Argentinian and British officers talking, and you'll have to look carefully at their uniforms to tell who belongs to which Country.

[@crd260]

Drach steppin' up his game releasing awesome videos on Fridays as well lately...

[@jehl1963]

I always find it interesting when people argue that attackers are someone exempt from maximum force responses.

[@Yrthwrym]

This was just terrific. The audio was a challenge, sometimes a perilous one, but so interesting and worth the effort.

[@johnemmert9012]

I found this video enlightening. I never understood the claim that the sinking was illegal, and the information on Belgrano's substantial upgrades was eye opening. Makes her sound like a mini-iowa

[@MrDirigible]

USS Savannah was the Brooklyn-class cruiser hit and survived the Fitz X strike off Salerno in 1943.

[@rickyphillips7630]

Thank you, it went out of my head completely... As i said, my Great Uncle Jim was cut in half by one off Anzio... His ship, that is, not him.

[@emdermonkay]

Even more impressive when you think about the Roma which was sunk after gettin hit by 2 Fritz X.

[@jedimasterdraco6950]

@@emdermonkay To be fair, one of those was a hit on her magazine which few ships ever react well to getting hit in.

[@HoldenOversoul]

She was fully upgraded to the twin mount 5"/38 dual purpose guns to look more like St. Louis and Helena when she came out of the yard, but never saw combat again. Same with Honolulu.

[@HoldenOversoul]

@@jedimasterdraco6950She was not hit in a magazine. She was hit on the top of turret 3. It punched through and exploded in an ammunition handling room. It was a devastating hit, but not a magazine hit.

[@Foureye15]

Ooh boy, let's hope the comment section remains civil

[@marcbhoy2811]

We'll know it didn't when "the comments are turned off" shows up

[@GuntherSDoumson2178]

Long live the Exocet missiles! Faster and more accurate than Maradona!

[@PaulfromChicago]

Curious. I came here hoping for the opposite. Some men just like to watch the world burn. I guess I'm one of them.

[@hughgordon6435]

Guards civile?

[@kemarisite]

Is there an Argentine version of the Commieboo?

[@cartmann94]

Amazing how history could repeat itself. We have a video about a ship sunk during the Falklands War the same week Venezuela is threatening to launch an invasion of Guyana.

[@TheArklyte]

Has Maduro already ran out of citizens of his own country to kill and exile? In just 10 years?

[@loganw1232]

Praying for Guyana 🇬🇾. They shouldn’t be bullied by Venezuela.

[@seanquigley3605]

Nice to see a book memorializing the ship. To find out she wasn't essentially an old lady run down by a Bus in the fog. But a still vivacious, proud combatant on a mission. Also nice to see how quickly these "Old obsolete Gun armed ships" made people's pucker factor ratchet up when the possibility of them sailing in range of anything even a major Navy like the Royal Navy ships became a real threat.

[@silas4lagoon776]

Cool fact that I learned, my great grandfather serviced phoenix while she was guarding convoys inbound to Australia during 1942, while on the USS Dobbin.

[@princeoftonga]

I’ve always had great respect for Admiral Sandy Woodward but after listening to this he’s gone even higher in my estimation! To basically be told preemptively that your side is probably going to lose the war and you are going to be the scapegoat is mad. To then knowing that perform as well as he did in the war is amazing!

[@rickyphillips7630]

And nobody ever said that happened. Woodward wrote it. I have a letter from him passed to me from another historian.

[@Stant123]

If it had happened, it was probably said in jest, but is being taken out of that context now. My bosses often times tell me to finish a project by a deadline (sometimes an unreasonable one) or I'm fired, the company is going to go broke because it's a really important job, and everyone who becomes unemployed will know it was because I didn't get things done on time. It's often used as a "motivation" tactic by upper management along the lines of "The beatings will continue until morale improves." Which is to say, everyone laughs because it's absurd and goes right back to doing what they were doing before the interruption.

[@rickyphillips7630]

@@Stant123 No, this was no joke. There were strong forces at work in the Admiralty.

[@RCAvhstape]

@@rickyphillips7630That's insane. How can you expect a man to go into battle knowing his bosses are betting against him. Even worse, it's not his skin alone on the line, he's got a fleet of sailors and Marines being sent into the meatgrinder under his command. To lose means lots of those guys pay the price.

[@rickyphillips7630]

@@RCAvhstape and if we lost, the right people get the right jobs just as massive funding goes to the Navy to repair the national outrage. Woodward, as a rear Admiral, was expendable. He decided to win instead.

[@AndrewBlucher]

Hi Drach. Great interview. Regarding the sound quality ... I follow various channels and the sound quality on internet interviews is often sub-par. To me, the obvious thought is to record at both ends, have the remote person send the recording across, and dub it into your recording. Equally obviously, it could be a lot of work. I have done such editing, so I do have an idea about the pitfalls. Regards, Andy

[@guestmatejek9029]

I was thinking the same thing. Save a local copy using something like OBS as a wave file, 16 bit 48 kHz, and mono is sufficient, notwithstanding, a clean mp3 would also work just fine. (If you were even more ambitious you could use OBS to record a full, clean FHD video, or UHD if your webcam supports that, and just transfer a decent master video file that has the good audio.) Next, drop the clean audio into your editor on top of the main recording of the entire interview. Your main recording will act as the primary timeline against which we can auto sync the clean audio. There are good programs that do this very accurately, e.g plural eyes. Done, quick as a dual purpose 5” 38! This whole process, yes, could be a lot of work and, yes, I have done quite a bit of this type of work myself; I think it would be pretty straightforward once all the files were local and the syncing can be done literally in a matter of seconds. Finally, just export your master for upload as you would normally do. I would be happy to help in such a way if there is interest in this type of editing as I am certainly passionate about the subject matter. Moreover, it sounds like there are a few editors out there who are reading this who are also passionate about the subject matter and could help spread the work out. I will DM offline, thanks.

[@alexmiller1874-6]

As someone who was born after the fall of the Soviet Union, the history I was taught in school ended in the 1940s, generally before whoever was teaching was born. I know people don't like to talk in detail about things more recent than that for various reasons (people still being alive, various Secrets Acts, among others) but a general overview of the last 70 to 80 years would be very interesting to those whose formal education has (once again) failed us... That said, It was wonderful to hear the history from someone who has dug deep enough to getting 'Official Flak' for it. I will have to add the book to my growing list. Please keep doing these "Interview the Author" videos.

[@Alex-cw3rz]

It's fascinating how much is still mysterious about the war even though it's 40 years ago.

[@rickyphillips7630]

Oh, you could rewrite it from scratch if you knew everything.

[@tehllama42]

It's that the majority of intelligence capabilities (methodologies, approaches, etc.) are still relevant. It's no understatement when Ricky says the real history is very much one of those 'take what you think you know, keep only the high level details about the fate of major units, and otherwise start from scratch' kind of deals. Having spent some time with a few of the British Royal Marines who were there, they knew full well what kind of fight was ahead of them, but pressed on anyway despite being honestly somewhat poorly prepared, undersupported, and realistically outnumbered

[@jedimasterdraco6950]

I'm pretty sure there's still some stuff from WWII that's classified. And it's been about twice as long.

[@rickyphillips7630]

@@jedimasterdraco6950 Invariably, yes... about the Falklands, I believe there are 519 files unopened (that figure is a few years old though) mostly about American and Chilean help, Operation Shutter, Operation Monkey etc.

[@gunhog11]

What would have been quite interesting regarding RN aircraft carriers, was had HMS Ark Royal (R05) still been in service instead of having been retired about 4 or so years prior. Rather than depending on 20 or so Sea Harriers, Ark Royal would’ve brought her F-4K Phantoms, Buccaneer strike jets, and Gannett Airborne Early Warning planes; at least bringing aerial radar surveillance to the fight, as well as a more robust air defense and strike capability and numbers.

[@Wannes_]

Never understood the controversy. If you start a war, you can expect your warships or warplanes (like the C-130) to be fired at.

[@comentedonakeyboard]

I dont think it is realy about the rules of war (or the sailors who lost their lives aboard the Belgrano) but about showing of the right leftish Attitude.

[@THE-BUNKEN-DRUM]

Exactly, mate. The funny thing is. Even the captain of the Belgrano, Hector Bonzo, claimed the sinking was legit.

[@mnxs]

​@@comentedonakeyboardWhich is especially ironic, given that those leftists were then supporting the unprovoked and illegal invasion committed by a semi-fascist military dictatorship...

[@kevinpresley3136]

I would like to see a video on the U.S.S. Brooklyn.She was the last of her class,surviving into the early 1990s with the Chilean navy.I remember when I was stationed at Naval Station New York(Brooklyn) inthe late 1980s the officers section had a huge wooden model of the U.S.S.Brooklyn.The class were beautiful ships.6 of the class were sold to South American navies.2each to Brazil 🇧🇷, Chile 🇨🇱, and Argentina 🇦🇷.

[@timgosling6189]

Before I joined the RAF, war was something in history books. Suddenly, trundling around in the South Atlantic, it was not just real but nobody knew whether we would win or lose. I still clearly remember that feeling of deep uncertainty, not knowing what would come next, not seeing any kind of big picture, and trying to pick truth out of World Service bulletins on the HF. All we could trust in was that we would all do our best.

[@mattwilliams3456]

Mr. Phillips, you’re a wonderful author and I look forward to adding this to my collection. Friendly note, USS Boise is pronounced Boys E.

[@rickyphillips7630]

Thank you... And every day is a school day, even for me 😊

[@mattwilliams3456]

@@rickyphillips7630 A day without learning is a terrible thing indeed.

[@HoldenOversoul]

Boy-see. They actually sell t-shirts for the tourists with the pronunciation on them.

[@antiochman8222]

I bet you pronounce Paris as Par-ee… Or not.

[@hansvonmannschaft9062]

@@HoldenOversoul Fun fact: If instead of _"see"_ you say _"seh"_ at the end, you just pronounced the same word with the same meaning, but in French... _voilá!_ 😛

[@bebo4807]

I was a member of the Lichtenstein navy at the time. After the Belgrano sinking we added torpedo blisters to our battleships and cruisers.

[@hansvonmannschaft9062]

Wow! We did exactly the same with our fleet in Luxembourg!

[@CorePathway]

How are those former Swiss Navy destroyers working out for y’all?

[@bwan13]

If you play the opening campaign mission from the video game Battlestations Midway, you see that USS Phoenix gets hit with an air launched torpedo at pearl. Which obviously is wrong. Where the developers of that game got that idea from we may never know.

[@rickyphillips7630]

Her sister ship was damaged with a converted sixteen inch naval shell which was air dropped... Maybe that's the confusion?

[@Elizabeth303]

My grandpa Verlin Wyatt was on the phoenix that day. This was super interesting thank you for sharing!!!

[@pedenharley6266]

Many thanks, Drach!

[@dantc2403]

Ricky with the connectivity issues ended up sounding like Drach's robo voice. Next time he has an interview with a British male over a dodgy internet connection, he should get him to say, "That's it for this video. Thanks for watching! If you have a comment or suggestion for a ship to review, let us know in the comments below. Don't forget to comment on the pinned post for Drydock questions."

[@73Trident]

Thanks Drach for stepping out of your time frame. The ship while being in your time frame is understandable. The time of sinking is decades off. Who would have guessed that a US built cruiser would get its bow blown off. So shocking that happened.😮

[@williamharvey8895]

Even with degraded audio, AWESOME. I remember when the Falkland war was happening when I was in the Navy.

[@Blacksheep1968]

Never understood the controversy about this. UK had every right to attack that ship and any other Argentine ship. War is war and Argentina started it. They are lucky the UK did go after more. More is the shame that the UK had become so weak to start with.

[@Fronzel41]

Socialists attack their enemies. Everything else is just branding and dressing.

[@RedXlV]

The captain of the Belgrano didn't understand the controversy either. His thoughts on the matter were basically that it's war, you win some you lose some.

[@rickyphillips7630]

@@RedXlV oddly, his thoughts changed with age. Initially, he was, perhaps understandably, very angry. Luckily, i have some good friends who were good friends of his, who came together to paint an excellent picture of the man so we get to know him and understand his decisions better in the book.

[@cheesenoodles8316]

Always appreciate history on the Faulkin Island conflict. Remember watching the ramp up ....England Armed Forces are hard fighters. I knew a few. My parents spent a month in England just as the Royal Arms (?) Museum put on thier display of the victory. My Dad was impressed, and noted all the small memorials for all the fallen in so many small pubs.

[@duwop544]

Very well done to clean up the noise, still something, but listenable. Impressive.

[@jackusmc2542]

Really great video. I will have to pick up Rick's books . I have always been fascinate by the Falklands War.

[@rickyphillips7630]

Thank you. And the sound quality is annoying, i get that, so double thank you for staying with us both 😊

[@maxbest20s11]

Remember the day of the sinking well, hearing of the losses later. Very grim. That's why wars are best avoided.

[@Losingsince]

It was Savannah that was hit by a Fritz X. Also some sources claim that the St. Louis and Helena were their own separate class or a subclass due to the different secondary armament

[@AJ.Roberts]

I’ve followed Rick on Twitter for ages, love his content 👍

[@rickyphillips7630]

Thank you for that. And we really apologise for the sound quality. It was a day of storms in the UK plus Edinburgh stone in these Georgian properties is very thick and very little gets through.

[@Kangenpower7]

When you talk about the destroyers leaving the General Belgrano's victims in the sea, one must recall the general orders of WW2, in the north Atlantic, where they required the other ships to continue, not stop to pick up survivors as they could also be hit by torpedo 10 and 11 from the nearby German Submarines. They also left the victims of the Hood and many other ships for the same reason. Of course we know now that the English submarine did not stick around to sink another ship, but instead went about 20 miles away, and surfaced so they could make a satellite phone call to England. They reported depth charges in the distance at that time. So I can only guess at how far away the submarine was when they felt it was safe to come to the surface and make that phone call. Once the other ships returned to port, then I guess the English took this as a hint they did not want any more capital ships to sink, and let them all go to port without sinking them along the way. A more aggressive navy might have sunk anything afloat.

[@jeffbybee5207]

Wish you recorded a bit loulder in general but thankyou glad to get your vids in any event

[@paulsakz1532]

For whatever reason his accent reminded me of a lot of the old history documentaries I had watched as a kid here in the usa! Please have him on more, he seems like such a fantastic person.

[@rickyphillips7630]

Thank you. It's London tainted by 17 years of living in Edinburgh :)

[@map3384]

I recall back then members of her former crew were hoping to bring her back to America as a museum ship. Wasn’t meant to be.

[@d.olivergutierrez8690]

Are you f kidding me 😢

[@rickyphillips7630]

Yes, there was a public subscription in the USA to buy her back. You're absolutely right.

[@RedXlV]

Pity none of the South American cruisers were preserved.

[@josiahbrown280]

It's actually pretty funny that naval design progressed so far as to be retroactive in its progress given that a pre-WW2 light cruiser was an actual significant threat to a modern surface fleet

[@RedXlV]

It's the same reason so much attention was played to the Soviet Union's Sverdlov-class during the Cold War, even though they were basically just a pre-WW2 light cruiser design upgraded with newer radar. And Britain's ultimate solution to that threat had the Cold War ever turned hot was pretty much "let the Americans handle it" (or the RAF if one of them dared to enter the North Sea). The Royal Navy's fleet, especially once their own aircraft carriers were retired, was predicated on not facing any foes with armor and heavy-ish guns. Anything along those lines would be dealt with by air power, while the Royal Navy would focus on anti-submarine duties.

[@michaelpiatkowskijr1045]

Remember what Helena did at Guadalcanal.

[@johnculler8312]

My Father served on the USS Phoenix, he was on the Phoenix at Pearl Harbor, he served on her the entire war. He received the Purple Heart that now hangs on my office wall, he was shot by kamikazes near the end of the war. We have a photo taken with General MacArthur and my Father on the Phoenix.

[@royasturias1784]

The She-Domon Kasshu shipfu "Look! The East is burning red!" "These hands of mine call me to cling to victory!" "...with the help of Boise, erh, Nueve de Julio!"

[@tehllama42]

It is quite curious that over the last few decades, more and more information has come out about the Falklands war. None of the revelations paint the Argentinian Junta in a better light... but rather tellingly the courage of all the sailors on both sides remains a constant.

[@rickyphillips7630]

More comes out as more files are declassified, researched and found. And none of them make the junta look any better.

[@tehllama42]

@@rickyphillips7630 Very definitely. I'm just consistently surprised with how forthright all the Argentinian commanders were with all of this... but I guess they respect the sacrifices made by all their subordinates and realized that was the best way to do this

[@timschoenberger242]

Another example of the Phoenix's luck. She was originally in Feb 1942 ordered to rendezvous with USS Langley and transport Seawich and cover them on their final run into Java. According to the book Rising Sun, Falling Skies, she had also been ordered to replace the damaged USS Houston. But the Langley and Seawich were ordered in without the Phoenix. When she arrived in Australia afterward, survivors of the Asiatic fleet were a little upset with her lack of action. There were a considerable number of fights.

[@rickyphillips7630]

Absolutely correct. I actually cover that 😊

[@TheWoblinGoblin]

Is Seawich a mirror universe navy counterpart of a sandwich? (I show myself out)

[@ScienceChap]

The First Casualty is an excellent book. It is very plausible because I don't believe for one second that any self respecting Royal Marine would simply give up.

[@rickyphillips7630]

Thank you. Casualty really is an incredible book, and the guys in it are truly immense. I still talk to all of them. In fact, so much more has come to light since it was written, which proves what was said.

[@gusbuckingham6663]

I grew up in a town just south of a sub basin. A lot of HMS's boats came in there. I drank with a few of those guys, but my hangover history is getting me off point. I ended up working for a very foul mouthed and funny chief. A torpedoman. I asked him off hand if he'd ever sunk a surface vessel. All the jokes stopped and he just glared at me. I still am not exactly sure what that meant. But I think I may have an idea now.

[@therealuncleowen2588]

The Argies thought the British wouldn't fight for the Falklands. They were wrong. Sad that so many Argentinean sailors were killed, but the sinking was not a war crime. Any Argies want to be mad at someone, be angry with your government at the time for starting a war over some rather inhospitable, and rather British, islands. Regarding the Argentineans, I should also mention that the captain of the Belgrano sounds like he was an honest bloke and a professional naval officer, who unlike many of his fellow countrymen, didn't whine about the sinking. He realized his ship was in a war, attempting to find and sink the enemy when she herself was sunk. He accepted that, despite the tremendous cost to himself and his crew. Good man.

[@trickydicky2908]

This episode (technical issues not withstanding) is still waaay better than A.I.!!!

[@Chilled_Mackers]

NewsWeek's front cover headline was superb.

[@unclestone8406]

It's at least a mercy for the former Phoenix that she was done in by a Mk. VIII torpedo equal to her own vintage. She was one of the last Brooklyn class at sea, and we've never sailed their like again, for better or worse. Remember and pray for the lost, everyone.

[@trauko1388]

Chile had their two Brooklyns plus a Tre Kronor ready to face this already decaying ship in 1978, but the argentines decided the brits were an easier target.

[@RedXlV]

@@trauko1388 Argentina was about a year away from actually being right about the Brits. In 1983, the brand-new HMS Invincible was scheduled to become HMAS Australia, and HMS Hermes was scheduled to be scrapped. Along with plenty of other of downsizing. Had that all happened prior to an Argentine invasion, the Royal Navy probably would've been deemed too small to mount a credible counter-offensive. Basically, the Argentine junta saved the Royal Navy from near-oblivion at the hands of Parliament.

[@trauko1388]

@@RedXlV True, now the whole point was for the takeover of the islands saving the impopular argentine junta, which had been on a shopping spree in order to have another try at bullying Chile... but the economy took a turn for the worse so they needed a win NOW. SO they attacked the people offering to give up islands in exchange for military sales, just as they themselves were in the process of receiving a lot of shiny new equipment.

[@cameronnewton7053]

​@@RedXlV what was even worse for Argentina is that a few over zealous scrap workers and an Argentine flag on south Georgia snowballed out of control and forced the invasion early...

[@johnathanh2660]

@@RedXlV "from near-oblivion at the hands of Parliament." Or, more bluntly - (Sir) John Notts Defence review at the request of Margaret Thatcher's (Conservative) cabinet. The Foreign Office were screaming about the threat from the Argentine junta, after the scrapping of HMS Endurance was announced. They were ignored. This ultimately led to Lord Carrington resigning. This bit tends to be forgotten with all the patriotic flag waving afterwards. And the 1983 election was subsequently won by Margaret Thatcher. It's an ugly chapter of British history and far from our finest hour. And for the avoidance of doubt, this isn't a criticism of the armed forces (of either side, incidentally) it's the point that there were political and military opportunities to prevent the invasion happening in the first place.

[@SamAlley-l9j]

Thanks Drach.

[@louisquatorze9280]

Interesting history on the Belgrano.

[@ralphdub7492]

I’m interested in this book solely because I LOVE secrets!

[@myparceltape1169]

I could nearly always, from the beginning, understand the destroyers going home lest they were also sunk. The lesson was learned in WW1.

[@PaulfromChicago]

The lesson should have been learned in World War I. Not all navies picked it up.

[@BishopStars]

Thanks for cleaning up the audio. Must have been very tedious, but it's listenable now.

[@wlewisiii]

I doubt that _I'd_ buy it. But I'd kill to check it out from my nearest library.

[@leezebede4469]

Don't make excuses for the audio Drac mate. The interweb couldn't take your raw power

[@Matt_The_Hugenot]

I was a young adult with friends out there in the services and family in the defence industry, I followed the war closely at the time. What always struck me was that I expected news reports and government statements to be somewhat circumspect however it was obvious they went far beyond secrecy into outright deception of the public when the Argentines must have known what was going on. To an extent this is understandable, there is an argument that erring on the side of caution is the right thing to do. What is unacceptable is to continue the lies long past the cessation of hostilities when any utility has ceased. It is no wonder there is so much speculation when there is no reason to trust a word our government said. It is interesting to note that the British Admiralty thought they were going to lose whereas the captains on the spot believed in their ships and crews. In contrast the Argentine Navy thought they had a great plant to win a decisive victory whilst their captains were far more pessimistic about their chances. On the specific incedent the micromanagement of the conflict from Whitehall and Northwood almost proved disastrous.

[@Kangenpower7]

"The Argentine Navy thought they had a great plan!" Made me laugh out loud! I guess the British Navy was more worried about submarines and the Argentines forgot about the submarines that can sink my battleship! I can imagine the surface ships in WW3 to get sunk fairly quickly, with missiles, not submarines like what happened in the last big war. And if they leave their radar sets turned on, it is like them sending out a spotlight saying "Here I am" with radio detection to pick up the radar from hundreds of miles away from the big ships. Submarines learned long ago that active sonar is the very fast way to get detected, while passive sonar is the easy way to detect the noise from the nearby submarines and ships. Every American submarine can listen to a ship, and know what it is.

[@jeraldsamuel5598]

He claims Landsat was a weather satellite, wasn't it a land imagery "earth resources" sat??? Did Landsat have the resolution to SEE ships???

[@rickyphillips7630]

No, it didn't... but the Argentines worked out that they could see the wakes of the British ships. Okay, "weather satellite" was a very layman's term in this respect, I accept, but the effect is the same.

[@MaximMachineGun]

As an American, most have not heard of the Falklands much less any controversy with it.

[@rickyphillips7630]

It's actually one of the most fascinating wars ever fought and highly relevant today. In fact, many Americans are getting into the Falklands War in a big way these days.

[@Alex-cw3rz]

I hope HMS Conqueror is saved and becomes a museum ship. I think it would be a very important vessel to save.

[@Cailus3542]

Nuclear subs and ships can't be preserved like that, sadly.

[@SeveralWeezelsInaTrenchcoat]

​@@Cailus3542there are nuclear museum vessels, like USS Nautilus

[@d.olivergutierrez8690]

@@SeveralWeezelsInaTrenchcoatthe iron giant killer is still around?

[@SeveralWeezelsInaTrenchcoat]

@@d.olivergutierrez8690 yup

[@Alex-cw3rz]

@@Cailus3542 yes they can, as someone else said a US sub had been and I believe a French one has as well

[@Alex-cw3rz]

That was very interesting information about the Satellite photos as that means the Soviets gave Argentina more Satellite photos than the US did to Britain. (Obviously as he said the Blackbird was used so it will be interesting to find out about that) Although they weren't much use due to the fact that the photos would be looked over by Soviet officials first to see if they would hand it over and then when it was that meant it was out of date as the ships had moved on. Argentina didn't particularly trust the Soviets either.

[@mahbriggs]

Don't blame them! The Soviets weren't very trustworty!

[@Freyja666]

Honestly our best ally during this conflict was Chilé, Pinochet was very helpful when it came to aiding us with bases for aircraft :)

[@Alex-cw3rz]

@@Freyja666 firstly praising Pinochet is very weird. Chile did help, but it is a myth that aircraft used their airfields, a sea king was able to make an emergency landing in Chile. Chile helped in other ways such as intelligence and Troop movement to keep most of Argentinas elite Marines on the border between Chile. That is the only good thing Pinochet ever did.

[@Freyja666]

@@Alex-cw3rz frankly i couldn't care less about what Pinochet does in his country, far as i'm aware he's alright for assisting us :)

[@mahbriggs]

@@Alex-cw3rz Except for preventing a Communist dictatorship in his country! Not a bad thing!

[@GrahamMilkdrop]

When I was a kid during the Falklands conflict I misunderstood what the General Belgrano was and thought she was a cruise ship!

[@razorburn645]

I wouldn't mind having a refurbished WWII ship for leisure.

[@GrahamMilkdrop]

This one would require a hell of a lot of refurbishment nowadays! At the time, I thought it was a cruise ship because there was so much controversy about its sinking and I didn't know of 'cruisers' as a military class. @@razorburn645

[@dovetonsturdee7033]

I recall Michael Foot's interview on TV. I rather think that he thought the same.

[@THE-BUNKEN-DRUM]

I didn't know where the Falkland Islands were, originally. I 'foolishly' assumed they were off the coast of Scotland.

[@Kangenpower7]

My dad designed sonar equipment from 1976 - 1983. So I guess I had more information than others about how well the passive sonar works on a modern submarine. Still I have no idea what the classified info is. I was 17 in 1982, so I knew a little more than what was on the local news. My dad knew Argentina had no chance of winning.

[@gandalfgreyhame3425]

Fascinating. I always wondered why so many of Belgrano's sailors died with the sinking (323 died, 770 were rescued over a period of days) - warships are designed with watertight bulkheads and so they don't go down so fast that all the men are trapped inside them, and it took about 30 minutes for the Belgrano to sink. It was never made clear that the Belgrano had two accompanying destroyers with it and that their ship captains chose to flee the scene rather than try to rescue the sailors in the water. The 323 men were most likely drowned in the freezing waters due to this delay in the efforts to rescue them.

[@rickyphillips7630]

Technically, the majority died in the first hit, which erupted up into the packed canteen just as the shifts changed, but about 50 could have been saved by the destroyers who later died.

[@gandalfgreyhame3425]

@@rickyphillips7630 That's one heck of a big canteen that could hald about a third of the crew at a time - lets see, if you had 8-person tables, that would be about 40 tables

[@rickyphillips7630]

@@gandalfgreyhame3425 the blast went up through several decks. It also blew up the oil fired power plant, so it turned into a volcano there. They say the first torpedo killed roughly 270 men in one blast.

[@gandalfgreyhame3425]

@@rickyphillips7630 Thanks! Those are the sort of grisly details that never came out with the sinking of the Belgrano. I also found a story about how the pictures of the sinking were taken by a junior officer evacuating from the ship, who then turned them over to his higher ups. One of the Argentine intelligence officers in the chain of custody of those photos then illegally showed them to a photographer working for a French agency and in exchange for money allowed him to take pictures of the prints, which explains why the published news photos are such bad grainy quality. Just curious, did the Argentinians ever release the original photos, based on the negatives? Not sure how good of a camera was used, but surely the original photos had better detail

[@rickyphillips7630]

@@gandalfgreyhame3425 Lieutenant Martin Sgut, yes... the photos online now are the originals.

[@stephenevans6070]

There is some sabre rattling going on at the moment over the Falklands, Argentina's claims are ludicrous, when the Falklands were ceded to the UK by Spain, Argentina didn't even exist as a country. One of Argentina's arguments is that the Falklands sit on the same continental plate as Argentina despite the fact that there is approximately 300 miles from the Falklands to mainland Argentina, well outside Argentinas exclusive economic area of influence of 200 miles. If you go by Argentinas logic then the UK could be claimed by France, Spain, Belgium etc as we share the same continental plate. Moreover Argentina are choosing to ignore the right of the Falkland islanders to self determination, there is approximately 9 years worth of oil under the Falklands if you go ny Argentina's current consumption rate, if Argentina got its maulers on the Falklands it would double their oil reserves.

[@rickyphillips7630]

A correction if I may? The Falklands were never ceded to the UK by Spain... Spain never legally owned them. Admiral Sir Richard Hawkins made the first claim to the Falklands in 1594. Their first name was "Hawkins Maiden Land". In 1690 Captain John Strong lands there, hoists the first ever flag on those islands and claims them again. From 1702 onwards they are published annually in the World Atlas as a British territory, under their new name of "Falkland Islands". In 1764, the French established a settlement there, racing to get ahead of a British mission. Their plan was to sell the islands to Spain and put Britain and Spain on a road to war. The idea being that a war 8,000 miles south would draw away the navy, and three plans were submitted for the invasion of Britain with 100,000 men, the idea being to dictate terms in London for the recovery of New France / Canada. The plan almost worked. The French got there in 1764, the British in 1765 with Commodore John Byron taking Formal Possession and claiming them again. The French settlement remained undiscovered. In 1767 France sold its settlement to Spain, and Spain eventually learned of the British settlement and submitted its claims to scrutiny but found out they had been sold a dead dog and had no legal title, so they attacked the British settlement in 1770. Britain mobilised for the expected war, but Spain backed down over it. The Spanish left in 1811. Argentina didn't exist until 1816 and didn't try to claim the Falklands until June 10th 1829. At this stage, the Falklands were 1,100 miles from Argentina, which didn't conquer Patagonia until the 1880s. In January 1833, after Argentina had ignored our diplomatic protests, we sent HMS Clio to ask them to leave, which they did. Spain recognised UK Sovereignty over the Falklands in 1863.

[@comentedonakeyboard]

If only Europe could agree if England is a Italian province, a Danish overseas teritory, a French Vasall state, a part of Spain with unfortunate weather or Lower Saxony.

[@hurnn1543]

I feel we do need endless pictures of USS Oregon.

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

The glitchy audio didn't spoil my viewing.

[@Alex-cw3rz]

It does not suprise me at all that they thought the navy was going to fail and that they'd blame the Admiral. With the huge funding cuts under Thatcher, including the fact one of our two aircraft carriers HMS Invincible was to be sold to Australia later that year. We had scrapped our only heavy support vessel, it could have been a disaster. If it wasn't for luckily still having enough ships as the funding cuts hadn't been able to get to that yet, the training and bravery of the man on board. On the topic or funding cuts the irony of the use of the Blackbird is the British version of a high attitude Reconnaissance plane which was very similar was cancelled in the 1950s.

[@simonroyle2806]

You mean HMS Invincible

[@RedXlV]

A huge part of Thatcher's subsequent political career was built on the victory in the Falklands, which is ironic since her own policies would've made that victory impossible had the Argentines waited just one more year before invading.

[@alganhar1]

@@RedXlV Lets be honest here, Thatcher's Government was hardly the first in the 60's and 70's that was busily seriously downgrading the British Military, neither would it be the last. Politicians of both sides in the UK tend to consider the UK's Defence budget as a handy pot of money for other 'more worthy' projects close to their hearts.... The Falklands is a good example of that, and the commission of the two QE Class Carriers handily hides the fact that the Government once again has downsized the British Army, and halved the number of MBT's available to it in favour of 'force multipliers' such as Drones. Electronic warfare and the like. Don't get me wrong, those Force Multipliers are important, but there has t be a Force their to bloody well multiply in the first place.... Despite their exceptional training and their on the whole extremely good equipment the British Army is a pale shadow of what it was even 20 years ago....

[@dovetonsturdee7033]

The driving force behind the massive reduction in the Royal Navy was the vile John Nott.

[@Alex-cw3rz]

@@simonroyle2806 oopsie yes I do

[@karapuzo1]

You should get the guest to run OBS or similar to record the audio localy and transfer the file. That audio is tourturous.

[@guestmatejek9029]

Agreed. The local OBS recording would work very well and certainly wouldn’t be any more complicated than what Mr. Phillips and Drach are talking about, lol. I would be happy to help facilitate this type of production if there’s interest. The subject matter definitely deserves the highest quality possible :)

[@phillipneal9289]

And the truth shall set you free

[@Thomas_TdK]

Let the guest record their audio to and then send it to you so you can edite it together

[@Alex-cw3rz]

I never knew about the new guns, that is a very interesting fact, can anyone give some more specs on them, as I can't find much about it, well in the English speaking internet that is.

[@camrsr5463]

Very informative. thanks

[@chadthundercock5641]

Fly high the Jolly Roger, Conqueror 🇬🇧☠️

[@HeadCheese-nm6dr]

I subscribe to this channel simply because I love old ships. ⚓

[@Eric_Hutton.1980]

I thought you didn't stop to aid victims of submarine attacks if there is still a risk to your own vessel.

[@Drachinifel]

It depends how honourable you think the other sides submarine commander is.

[@richardcowling7381]

​@@Drachinifel "Never trust the lives of your men to the honour of the enemy"

[@comentedonakeyboard]

She survived WW II with barely a scratch, but sunk after beeing renamed twice and sunk. Proof that renaming brings bad luck.

[@TrickiVicBB71]

the Brooklyn Class cruiser that took a Fritz X to the face was USS Savannah CL 42

[@EdibleClown]

By coincidence i just finished Historigraph feature-length video on the Falklands war

[@michaelimbesi2314]

Same

[@MoA-Reload...]

That's another great video 🤗

[@davidmcintyre8145]

There are of course three reasons that the destroyers would have left the area; Cressy, Aboukir and Hogue

[@Simon_Nonymous]

Indeed. I suggest that if they had tried rescue they risked being attacked too,plus I am not sure what their ASW capacity was but I would doubt they were up to fighting a modern nuclear submarine.

[@davidmcintyre8145]

@@Simon_Nonymous They would also not know if more than one submarine was in the area

[@johnmoore8599]

Mr. Phillips is an interesting guy! I'm glad you interviewed him. Thank you! The USS Phoenix was a very lucky ship until her execution day arrived. I hope some of that luck rubbed off on her last crew when the destroyers left them to the mercies of the South Atlantic.

[@rickyphillips7630]

I will take "interesting" any day... The wife calls me far worse 😊

[@sadwingsraging3044]

Anyone that was stupid enough to let the Phoenix, much less the Belgrano she became, get close enough to their ships to use those guns they were going to learn a hard lesson in a short time.

[@dongiovanni4331]

Im a bit pedantic: Landsat isn't a weather satellite program. Its a USGS resource survey program.

[@ShamanMcLamie]

I die a little inside everytime he pronounces Boise. He almost has it too. Just add an E sound like in flee at the end. Pronounced like Boy-Zee

[@solodad7999]

War is war. If there is a threat you remove it. I dont see what the issue is.

[@Archie2c]

Agreed war is war the point of contention is the zone as a active war zone was not expanded till right before her sinking if it was my memory fails me like in WW I saying Britain's coastal waters being the actual war zone vs the whole Atlantic.

[@richardcowling7381]

​@@Archie2c If a German Naval submarine in WW1 had encountered a RN ship outside the declared war zone around the British Isles, wouldn't they try to sink an enemy combatant?

[@mahbriggs]

​@@Archie2cthat exclusion zone applies to civilian ships. Only a fool would think that military ships would be immune to attack! They were threatening the British fleet which made them fair game! Do you really believe that the Argentinians would have honored the exclusion zone if the British carriers were outside the exclusion zone?

[@franklinkz2451]

Theres a little bit of a buzz, occasionally!

[@brycefelperin]

I came to the same conclusion about copyright when I published my first book on Amazone KDP. Get your own copyright and ISBN numbers. It's an extra cost, but in the long run with any possibility of some screenwriter or TV maybe in the future wanting to do a version of your books you will be happy that you, and not your publisher, owns your copyright.

[@mikeynth7919]

What did anyone expect would happen if that cruiser came across a submarine?

[@razorburn645]

A modern sub at that.

[@JohnnySmithWhite-wd4ey]

Gotcha

[@grathian]

"Hoffman" guns? CITER was of Argentine manufacture (CitiDef) and introduced into Argentine Army service before the war, four were captured on the island. It did use special base bleed ammunition to achieve 26.000 yard ranges, very long indeed for field howitzers of the day, but actually the same range as a standard USN 6"/47 round. Refitting would require major design changes to the gun and ship. The breech, recoil system and muzzle breaks were incompatible with the turret, the ammunition and charges incompatible with the hoists and ramming system. After the refit, the ship would be firing a less damaging projectile the same range at half or less the rate of fire. Without the base bleed ammunition, CITERS range was considerably shorter than Belgrano's. In his book, Mr Phillips makes the claim that Belgrano's "6.1-inch guns were ... worn, warped and prone to jamming" and that they were "taken off and new ones provided". "Ammunition was still plentiful ... whilst the emptying of the magazines from Nueve de Julio ensured there would be no shortfall". Several issues here. Yes, CITERs were 155mm (6.1"), but Belgrano's guns were 6" (152mm). The ammunition was not interchangeable, as noted above. Replacement with 155mm would have required extensive design documentation of all of the ammunition handling systems as well as new elevation, recoil and control systems. Sorry, but it is not a slap the new one in place and go sort of modification. Not to mention that CITER was a 33 caliber weapon, about 2/3 the size of Belgrano's 47 caliber weapons. Yes, there is a 45 caliber development, but it was not operational until 1996. Further, the footnote on this does not provide any reference whatsoever. "Again, as in the previous note, more modern is hard to come by, for whatever reasons, regarding the extent of her overhaul, and a clear example is the amount one has to dig to find anything about her new primary guns, which most histories ignore". I would suggest the lack of documentation is because it did not happen. Instead, a thorough overhaul of the electrical and hydraulics of the system, as well as relining of the tubes is a far more plausible event. Sorry, I do not see Mr Philips claim to be credible based on the information he has provided.

[@rickyphillips7630]

No, they weren't the CITER guns repurposed, the manufacturer, Hoffman, made entirely new guns for her.

[@grathian]

@@rickyphillips7630 Can you provide any plausible reference that they did not simply refurbish the 6"/47s (which are 152mm, contrary to what you claimed in your book on page 161), instead of replacing all of the turret and magazine machinery to support a completely new design 155mm, which in fact did not enter operation until 1996? Not to mention cutting new fire control cams for the Mk8 rangekeepers for the new ammunition. Frankly, it is not unimaginable that Hoffman built new copies of the existing 6"/47, which would perform the same as the original weapons.

[@rickyphillips7630]

@@grathian The guns were 6.1 inch which is 154.94mm (or 155mm for ease of use) and yes, I have fully supported the idea that the guns manufactured by Hoffman were replicas of the original. Nowhere have I stated that they were just howitzer guns bolted on instead... I think that would be silly. I think we're agreeing on the same point, but from different angles, or what I have written is misinterpreted.

[@dlscorp]

a really interesting interview unfortunately rendered unlistenable :( thank poseidon for subtitles

[@knightmarex13]

Hey Drach, any thoughts on the naval combat in the latest Godzilla movie?

[@Drachinifel]

The movie isn't out in the UK yet, but I do plan on seeing it.

[@SonOfAB_tch2ndClass]

*HA HA HA! NOT EVEN GODZILLA CAN SINK YUKIKAZE THE GREAT NANODA!*

[@unclestone8406]

​@@SonOfAB_tch2ndClass Sadly, Takao was not equal to atomic Kaijuu beams...

[@SonOfAB_tch2ndClass]

He went for the keel clever bastard@@unclestone8406

[@jeremyfeldmann7969]

She would done the same to the sub

[@bolas1939]

I purchased this book under the influence of the episode, so I'll share my first impressions after receiving. 430 pages, A4 format, soft cover. Very unusual page layout: large font, wide line spacing, and huge inner margins give the impression that half of the page is empty. Additionally, there are over 118 photos, but the quality of most is downright terrible... they look as if they were printed on a home printer in ink-saving mode... moreover, a significant portion lacks the proper resolution; you can clearly see the pixels. A considerable number of photos are distorted - flattened or stretched. Having said that I still hope the reading experience will be better because, honestly, it's not what I expected.

[@rickyphillips7630]

It's not A4, it's 7 x 10 to make it bigger as the smaller format becomes too hard to read, and the book ends up stupidly thick.

[@bolas1939]

@@rickyphillips7630 thank you, sir. Just wondering, as I noticed that it was probably printed on demand by Amazon in my country. Could it be the case that the quality of such a printed book is lower than your original? Just wondering if I should send it back to Amazon and order another one from a different source. I'm sure you did a fantastic job with the story; I was amazed by this episode. Please don't take it personally :)

[@rickyphillips7630]

@@bolas1939 Amazon print can be funny. You never know until it's in your hands. Many of the photos were blurry. That's the Internet for you. Copies of copies of copies times a thousand, and the images lose integrity. As to size, often, older people such as veterans, and my dad, always say it's too small to read, so i went a size up. As to print though, Amazon is the printer. Otherwise, the author pays for the entire print run, storage, shipping... The price becomes ridiculous. I always work with formats balancing quality and price, because money is tight for everyone.

[@Thumpalumpacus]

'Twas USS Savannah as got hit by the guided bomb. Punctured straight through her bottom.

[@marianoetcheverry3125]

At .75 speed it's less unconfortable.

[@MakeMeThinkAgain]

The USS Phoenix was also just south of Java at the time of the Battle of Java Sea. Why did they give Brooklands instead of Clevelands to the South American navies? Didn't the destroyers do a good job of hunting the British sub?

[@RedXlV]

Because the Brooklyns were older and less capable. That's the same reason USS Savannah (which was significantly upgraded after surviving a Fritz X hit in 1943) wasn't among the Brooklyns that got transferred to the South American navies. Argentina really wanted her; they argued that there ought to be a 3:2:2 ratio instead being limited to parity with Brazil and Chile. But the entire reason the US gave those ships to the South Americans (and heavily lobbied Britain to block any sale by Vickers of new-construction cruisers) was to prevent a new South American arms race. But still giving the major South American powers *enough* of a fleet to deter them from potentially seeking ships from the USSR instead. All of the Clevelands and the remaining two Brooklyns were kept by the US Navy until 1959, at which point all of them that hadn't gone through missile conversion were disposed of.

[@johnwalsh7256]

Just ordered the book! Rule Britannia!

[@rickyphillips7630]

Thank you. It really is something special. Use a second bookmark at the back for the historical notes, as they're pretty extensive 😊