'USS Robin' - HMS Victorious in American Service

[@seldonplanB-24]

I always thought the PB4Ys were all single-stabilizer...so I googled it after watching this video and sure enough, Consolidated made both single and twin stabilizer variants of that model. As they say, you learn something new every day! My grandad was the nose gunner on a B-24J

[@Easy-Eight]

The first models of the PB4Ys were just repainted B-24s. The later PB4Ys had a single stabilizer and the high level equipment removed, they were optimized for maritime patrol.

[@calvinnickel9995]

PB4Y is just the US Navy designation for the B-24 and derivatives. They never had a B-24.. just like they never had a T-6 (SNJ) or a C-47 (R4D).

[@meanstavrakas1044]

Channels like this is one of the BEST things about KZbin. I really enjoy watching & learning about the history of the Second World War. Thank you for posting!

[@andrewtaylor940]

Excellent piece. Although you missed one of the main driving forces behind the British decision to loan Victorious. She was going to be out of Service anyway. She was being sent to the US for a major refit that among other things would allow her to operate the newer heavier aircraft, like the Avenger. So she would be out of service for months. By loaning the carrier the Royal Navy got the US Navy to pay for the full refit. The US Navy prioritized the refit as a critical ship. Thus halving the expected time out of service. So the Royal Navy got a bargain. The time the US Navy was operating it was basically the same time the Royal Navy had expected it to be out of service anyway. Plus they got two ice cream machines for free! The flight deck and island extensions weren’t specific US modifications. They were always going to happen as part of the refit. The main US specific modifications were the US com gear and radar. And the Ice Cream machines!

[@TheArgieH]

As dairy products were strictly rationed the ice cream machines would not have been much use for long.

[@TheArgieH]

Worth remembering that HMS Victorious fought through to Malta more than once, protecting relief convoys. She operated Seafires amongst other aircraft. So she would have had a bit of practice from flying interceptions in the face of the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica.

[@andrewtaylor940]

@@TheArgieH When the ship was returned a RN Admiral took one look at the Ice Cream makers and declared that that was far too luxurious for Royal Navy sailors and ordered them removed. Then 2 years later Victorious returned to the Pacific. Where the Royal Navy learned first hand the part Ice Cream played in the rescue of downed pilots. And how incredibly effective the program of giving each destroyer and sub a few gallons of Ice Cream for every flyer recovered was. The machines got put back.

[@TheArgieH]

@andrewtaylor940 But what did they use in them? I do not think folk remember just how strict rationing had become after several years of war and deprivation. When Churchill travelled on HMS PoW to meet Roosevelt for the Placentia Bay conference, he took a hand picked group of writers with him to report and record. These civilians were allowed ashore (with Navy minders) to stretch their legs. After years of rationing they pigged out on butter and crackers. Sadly they were recalled to PoW before their longed for steaks arrived (war is hell). Roosevelt brought a personal gift for each British sailor. This was a package with about 250g of cheese, a piece of fruit and 200 cigarettes. Non smokers got chocolate. These were very well received, illustrating how much wartime shortages were biting.

[@TheArgieH]

@andrewtaylor940 Fits the Old Salt maxim: "If it was good enough for Nelson, it is good enough for you son!" As I said elsewhere there were also practical reasons. I wonder if the RAF stripped the lavatories and soft loo paper out of their B1 Washingtons. I bet the coffee machines went.

[@Perfusionist01]

Some sources state that the USN learned quite a lot from Victorious fighter direction set-up. Fighter direction was poor at Coral Sea and Midway and mixed in the Solomons. New procedures changed that to here the USN Combat Air Patrols became a major killing machine - the biggest example being the Battle of the Philippine Sea.

[@johnhallett5846]

Maybe; but just how often were British carriers facing the large aerial attacks that happened in the Pacific?

[@michaelinsc9724]

​@johnhallett5846 He is correct. The USN did in fact have much to learn regarding fighter direction. Our methods were far behind those of the Japanese and British. This loaning of HMS Victorious was invaluable in that regard.

[@johnhallett5846]

@@michaelinsc9724 I would like some sources for that claim.

[@marcharkness6101]

@@johnhallett5846 The British learned their fighter direction lessons in the Mediterranean.

[@johnhallett5846]

@@marcharkness6101 Reasonable; but did they ever have to handle a couple hundred enemy planes at one time?

[@georgettewolf6743]

Starting in 1943 and continuing to the present day, USN-RN cross deck operations have always been a mainstay. Most recently, when the RN was working up F-35Bs, they were joined for a multi-month cruise to the Pacific by a unit of USMC F-35Bs. The latter filled in the gaps of Lightning II numbers when there weren’t a lot of them to go around. And yes, the Marines used the famous up angled front ramp just like their British counterparts.

[@g8ymw]

Us Brits know them as "Ski-jumps" I think it is a British idea

[@katherineberger6329]

​@@g8ymw Whereas those of us who hang around on r/noncredibledefense know them as "cope slopes." ;) It was a British idea (as was the steam catapult). Unfortunately, before WW2, Britain was still convinced that the future of their navy was in the line of battle and after it, they didn't have the manpower or the ships to build a convincing carrier fleet and the US did.

[@robertpatrick3350]

@@katherineberger6329different Navy to fight a different War, looking with a Pacific centric view is a common flaw of US analysis

[@kirishima638]

Brothers in arms

[@squirepraggerstope3591]

@@g8ymw Yep, iirc a 'Ski Jump' was first fitted to the lead ship of her class, HMS Invincible while she was still fitting out alongside in Buccleuch Dock in my home town, Barrow-in-Furness. Which dates it to c1979 or 1980. I recall it being there when an open day was held on the ship and it was already becoming known as a "ski jump" even then. It was initially a more modest 7 degree ramp than the 12 degree ones that later became standard.

[@superancientmariner1394]

USS Robin, as stated, was her officialy assigned radio call sign. And the issues were well covered by this except for one small fact..... Under the impression that the US only had one carrier at sea, hearing about another carrier, the USS Robin, was quite a shock. the US knew who she was, the Brits knew who she was, but the Japanese though she was a US carrier.

[@Cailus3542]

Honestly, I somewhat doubt that the Japanese thought that the Americans had made a new carrier appear out of thin air. The smarter IJN officers probably figured out that it was a British carrier, or less likely, one of the Essex-class. It didn't matter in the end, fortunately, since the Japanese were still recovering from the meat grinder of Guadacanal and were in no shape to do anything.

[@marcharkness6101]

Saratoga: "If you're 'Robin', Than I get to be BATMAN!"

[@spaceskipster4412]

🦇 😂

[@daniellastuart3145]

Ne becaus ewe Robin Hood and you can be Maid Marian

[@johnhallett5846]

Love that line "Typical american welcome: lots of guns."

[@samuelmartin865]

And don’t forget the ice cream!

[@richardm3023]

"Ya know I think we can squeeze a few more in if you want..."

[@gryph01]

Yes. Like the old joke of Naval Architects asking, "How many lines do you want?" USN: "Yes:

[@katherineberger6329]

Japanese air attack was no joke, and we didn't have the capacity for a 24/7 CAP until late in the war when the Fast Carrier Task Force was finally assembled.

[@johnhallett5846]

@@katherineberger6329 Did not need 24/7 as the Japanese rarely tried much at night. Also after 1942, there practically speaking was no IJN carrier capability anymore; they spend all of 43 and most of 44 trying to rebuild it then lost is all at Philippine Sea. Striking land based air was hit and run; and thus not the same thing.

[@hazchemel]

Excellent, thank you. Disagree that gaining knowledge was a motivation to send a RN fleet carrier for the USN. It is an effect of the loan, and of course they would be aware of potential benefits, but not a motivation.

[@Cailus3542]

Yup. It was mostly a case of "oh dear God, we've lost most of our carriers in just a year, we need help." Fortunately, though technically having the advantage, the Japanese were just as bloodied. Probably so.

[@nickdanger3802]

@@Cailus3542 WE lost Lexington at Coral Sea preventing Japan from landing on New Guinea to out flank the Aussies whilst Wasp launched Spits to Malta for the second time in two months.

[@brianjones5379]

Great content, I had never heard of this episode.

[@skippythewonderlemur]

Excellent video. Excellent topic. Thank you for making it. I learned something.

[@vincentcondron588]

Great video 📷📸 but will you be doing a part 2 with the USS Saratoga & HMS victorious serving together

[@spaceskipster4412]

Life had come full circle then. There are joint British and American planes and pilots on the new Royal Navy Aircraft Carriers too. 🇬🇧⚓️🇺🇸

[@R_McGeddon117]

British carriers flight decks were armor plated while American carriers had wooden ones which proved disastrous when attacked by dive bombers

[@nickdanger3802]

armored deck did not save Akagi

[@Subsidiarity3]

Really interesting story I have never heard about yet. Thanks.

[@Yandarval]

After Saratoga copied British fighter director doctrine. It spread throughout the USN, once the extra RADARs were fitted to the USN carriers.

[@1chish]

They would be the short band radars invented by the British using the Cavity Magnetron and donated FOC to the USA in the Tizard Missions in 1940.

[@flywheel986]

Thanks for bringing a world war two operation to my attention that I was never aware of. Appreciate the knowledge!

[@kidmohair8151]

the USN also learned, during Victorious' stint in the Pacific, all they could about RN night carrier operations. this would stand them in good stead later.

[@markballard2442]

Another good read of Sara's wartime history is the booklet called "Sara - The Story of USS Saratoga" . I think this was a US Navy publication and fully details most of the ranking officers and the activities during WW2. It can be found in PDF form if you search. Sara also called at Hobart Tasmania for R&R at one point and many years later Pop moved to Tasmania to be with us.

[@BrockRuby]

Great subject!! Don't think I heard of this in such detail. Love it!!

[@markballard2442]

My father joined CV3 Saratoga following his enlistment on 31st December 1941 in Los Angeles. He served the entire war on her and once recalled how he was assigned to a British carrier for some months. I am not sure whether it was on Victorious or later on Illustrious, but was somewhere near the India ocean. He recalled that it was a real downgrade from Sara in that the food was terrible and the British ship was not airconditioned.

[@edpzz]

Yes bad food But he got a Rum Ration 😉😊

[@katherineberger6329]

@@edpzz You're not getting the balance of your daily calories from rum.

[@markmaher4548]

​@@katherineberger6329If you're getting a full tot of proper RN rum? You won't care about vitamins.

[@matthewkeith8605]

@@markmaher4548 Damn right! Being drunk and toothless is the British way.

[@Redhand1949]

Very interesting, and love the photos!

[@Backwardlooking]

Very interesting as regards the otherwise unavailable information. There is a colour video on KZbin of the Victorius and Saratoga’s crews saluting one another.

[@Peorhum]

Yeah, she was never actually renamed Robin, it was just her call sign to cause confusion to the enemy.

[@crazylegz324]

The British loan us a desperately needed aircraft carrier and we return it fully refitted and with a full tank of fuel. Pretty much sums up the British/American relationship. As close to family as nations can be.

[@dhjoe2966]

Very detailed. Helped my fix for information on Uss Robin

[@ph89787]

Saratoga: Hey, everyone. I’d like to introduce the newest US Navy Carrier, USS Robin. “Robin:” Howdy my fellow carriers. Enterprise (not buying it for a second): Drop the act Victorious I know that’s you.

[@stmcde1701]

"How do you do fellow Colonials"

[@barrybolton1396]

Lol...good one!​@stmcde1701

[@neilwilson5785]

I really enjoyed this one. Thanks!

[@shathriel]

Later in the war Saratoga would join up with Illustrious when she ventured east of Suez.

[@legiran9564]

Can you also do a video where USS Saratoga temporarily swapped Icecream for Tea?

[@josephhungerford8348]

Very interesting topic plus never heard of this ship before 😀.

[@DaveAinsworth-y8h]

Both the US Navy Aircarrians and Japanese aircarrians was with armoured, but the RN aircarrians was armoured and not destroy by kamikaze attacks.

[@fabianzimmermann5495]

It speaks volums to the sizes of both the US and the Royal Navy and the industrial capacities of both countries, that they were able to loan each other their most valuable warships for a few months if necessary.

[@roverM30ds]

Eye opener for the modern yanks, thanks for sharing

[@nickdanger3802]

38 escort carriers Lend Leased to Britain, 36 returned.

[@BobSmith-dk8nw]

The only three nations to have serious Carrier Forces in WWII - were the Americans, British and Japanese. For the Americans and British - who both knew what they were doing - to be able to work together and see each others procedures was invaluable. To this day - there are exchange programs between such as NATO Powers of personnel that allow for shared information and procedures. .

[@1chish]

That request to the British must have stuck in Admiral King's craw in 1942. Remember he was fiercely anti-British and that attitude cost thousands of lives and tens of thousands of tons of allied shipping right off the coast of the USA when the U Boats enjoyed their 'Happy Time'. All because King refused to take advice from the very skilled RN on convoy tactics, escort strategies, advanced sonar and radar or to use British Intelligence coming from Bletchley Park spies. The British had to send converted U Boat tracking trawlers across the Atlantic to operate off the Eastern Seaboard. Some were lost and to this day there are British graves and even a british cemetery on US soil. The man was a liability and 'word was' (luckily) Nimitz valued the British experience and way of doing sea warfare and made sure King acted accordingly.

[@Cailus3542]

King was an exceptional officer otherwise. It's a shame that he's best known for his anglophobia and related problems.

[@1chish]

@@Cailus3542 I would have thought to put your country, its merchant shipping, the merchant shipping of your country's biggest customer (and new ally) and all the military equipment at risk because of personal vendetta surely precludes the word 'exceptional' being applied in any positive way? To the British he was an exceptional liability and cost the lives of hundreds of British civilian and Royal Navy sailors and lost millions of dollars worth of key equipment in the Atlantic.

[@accomuk]

@@Cailus3542 I believe his dislike of the British and the RN particularly dated back to WW1 when he arrived in England and he felt he was not given the attention, respect and admiration he felt he deserved. The British I suspect just felt he was a typical loud mouthed Yank who thought he was a cowboy.

[@dovetonsturdee7033]

@@Cailus3542 Saying that old Ernie was an 'exceptional officer' is on a par with saying 'But apart from that Mrs. Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?'

[@nickdanger3802]

@@1chish Second Happy Time if you think you can make a case for the USN preforming worse in 1942 than the RN did in 1917, please do so.

[@maxsothcott4484]

Did HMS Victorious become a ‘dry’ ship for the duration of the USN association and if so, how did the RN ship staff take to this sacrilegious removal of their daily ‘tot’???

[@riverraven7359]

Well they got rum from the Australians so I guess not

[@redtobertshateshandles]

The typically English way. Complaining, a lot. 😂

[@Easy-Eight]

As the story goes the USN gave the RN ice cream machines. Ice Cream, being rare in wartime Great Britain, was seen as a rare treat. Also, the US made it a point of giving Victorious the best rations. The British sailors were very surprised to be given steaks and prime rib. Honestly, it was not that the US Navy didn't like Victorious but they were loathe on putting the ship at risk. While Ranger was deemed too slow and unprotected for the Pacific she did double duty and covered Victorious' absence. Ranger did many raids against German shipping off Norway.

[@Von_Baron]

My Grandfather served on Victorious in the Pacific. They had their daily rum ration. Not sure about the USN personnel on their though. There would have been real problems if they cut the daily tot.

[@Easy-Eight]

@@Von_Baron everything I've read was the British enjoyed their service with the USN in mid-'43. The USN went out of their way to give the Royal Navy good rations, gave them good uniforms, and treated them great.

[@MilesStratton]

Very cool video, quite enjoyed it.

[@johnmarkey4862]

Well made

[@barryheath8123]

I never knew this at all.

[@BuzbyWuzby]

Yanks: Howdy Vicky welcome to the Pacific! Limeys: It's Victorious, not Vicky. And we should be welcoming you to the Pacific as the Royal Navy was here before your country even existed!

[@nickdanger3802]

RN really kicked ass in the First Opium War so British merchants could sell drugs in China.

[@Derek-je6vg]

Good video!

[@MartinCHorowitz]

A pity they didn't pair the ship with the USS Batman....

[@julesmarwell8023]

so glad Australian RUM helped to keep the fighting Anglo SPIRITS UP. AM sure she helped to keep Australian shores safe. God bless America

[@markmaher4548]

RN rum was made in four places, Jamaica, Trinidad & Barbados & lastly Guyana right up untill HM Gov (the utter barstewards) saw fit to withdraw the "tot" in 1970.

[@Yandarval]

It does say volumes about have terrible Ranger was. When the noted Anglophobe, Admiral King awallowed some pride and asked for help. Just a funny look, and Ranger would have sank in flames. Had it gone to the Pacific.

[@nickdanger3802]

The British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, fearing that Malta would be "pounded to bits", asked President Roosevelt to allow USS Wasp to have "another good sting." and Wasp loaded another contingent of Spitfire Vs at King George V Dock Glasgow and sailed for the Mediterranean on 3 May in Operation Bowery. On this occasion, the group included the British carrier HMS Eagle with her own load of Spitfires.

[@Yandarval]

@@nickdanger3802 Indeed Wasp did. She helped deliver a load of Spitfires to Malta, as shehad been in British waters when asked. Not enough british carriers to go around, what with early war losses. Then add how stretched the RN was does to having to cove the Med and other eareas. (France was supposed to have covered the Med, in pre war planning).

[@nickdanger3802]

@@Yandarval Operation Bowery early May 1942. Battle of the Coral Sea 4 to 8 May 1942. Arctic convoy PQ15 One USN battleship, two heavy cruisers and five destroyers April 1942.

[@dinger40]

And don't forget the ice cream machines that were fitted at one point. Foster Father was on there.

[@Lord.Kiltridge]

Thank you for not calling Britain 'England'.

[@SoloRenegade]

modern UK carriers are manned with US personnel and escorted by US destroyers......you could argue the UK carriers are also partially in US service.

[@1chish]

Not quite true without perspective. The only time US personnel serve on UK carriers (or ships come to that) is when its a joint exercise or operation like when a squadron of USMC F-35B aircraft were assigned to HMS Queen Elizabeth for her round the world operation. Individual pilots are swopped but on a one for one basis.

[@SoloRenegade]

@@1chish don't forget the US destroyers assigned to the UK carrier escort fleet. they didn't have enough of their own ships to support a world tour.

[@1chish]

@@SoloRenegade Sorry Dufus but there was ONE US destroyer assigned to CSG21. Why? Because it was a joint exercise. D'UH! But here is the bit you missed. There were also: 2 x RN air defence destroyers 2 x RN ASW frigates 2 x Astute attack subs 2 x RFA supply ships for the whole fleet. Oh yes and the Dutch asked to send a frigate as they train with the Royal Navy. FunFact: The Royal Navy regularly sends destroyers, frigates and supply ships when US groups are in Europe. And right now an RN air defence destroyer is protecting US Navy ships in the Red Sea. You're welcome. Not sure where you are getting your stupidity from but try reading proper books.

[@SoloRenegade]

@@1chish "And right now an RN air defence destroyer is protecting US Navy ships in the Red Sea." that's not the same as putting US fighters aboard a UK carrier and sending a US destroyer as part of the fleet on a worldwide tour. assisting the US in operations in teh Red Sea is not the same. Everyone knows the UK is having troubles staffing and funding its military these days. Many articles and videos have recently been written calling into question the UK's ability to even defend itself right now if necessary. Best to have strong allies, but the first step in fixing a problem is admitting there is a problem.

[@1chish]

@@SoloRenegade Last point first: I never suggested we do not have problems. But thanks for the deflection and misrepresentation. Neither did I suggest there was a corollary to the RN having a destroyer in the Red Sea with a US destroyer in the CSG. It was to point out that both navies operate with each other. But again thanks for the misrepresentation. My whole point was to correct your exaggerated statements. Plural. And you are still at it. Yes we had US fighters on the QE for CSG21. The reasons: 1. The Biden Administration has deliberately slowed deliveries to the UK of the 48 F-35s we ordered and funded over 8 years ago. 3 years after CSG21 we still have only had some 36 delivered. 2. The USMC requested to be on CSG21 to work up their own change of squadron setup 3. The USMC needed to work up operating rules for when their staff and aircraft are working off a UK carrier. Important things like drinking beer! 4. They wanted to evaluate how effective the ramp and UK operating procedures were. I could be sarcastic and suggest they also wanted to see a fully automatic weapon storage and delivery system actually working as theirs on the USS Ford didn't. But I won't. 😂😂 As for us defending ourselves? Well many have thought we couldn't and since 1066 every one has failed. Whereas the last time the USA was invaded was in 1812 by us Brits. Or maybe in exercises when us crafty old Brits had Vulcan bombers deny NORAD and bomb the East Coast. 2 years running. So take your fabrications and Bs you useless Septic and place them in a sunless environment. Per Ardua Ad Astra.

[@JJbm4233]

Great topic to make a video on, as a suggestion, I would suggest maybe the British Pacific fleet as another video

[@issacfoster1113]

Victorious looks Puny compared to Saratoga

[@Mrhalligan39]

Victorious was about 10,000 tons displacement smaller than Saratoga. Sara and Lex were huge compared to the later purpose built carriers. As battlecruisers, they would have been comparable in size to Hood.

[@edl617]

Steel deck

[@nickdanger3802]

Armoured deck did not help Akagi.

[@aoife1122]

Where there is a wil... ;)

[@andymcgeechan8318]

And that's how they introduced mashed potato to us British !

[@iainmcneil969]

At least the dried reconstituted sort. I love they had to send a chef over in the observers seat to show the RN what to do with it!

[@markmaher4548]

​@iainmcneil969Yeah, because prior to that, we just boiled some spuds & mashed them.

[@richardm3023]

Welcome to the USA...here's your guns.

[@jonathanbair523]

You forgot the ice cream!!! "Welcome to the USN, here is some extra guns and Ice Cream."

[@josephpadula2283]

Funny now us planes can only land in the French carrier .

[@1chish]

Funny how you never got the email that USMC F-35s were operating off HMS Queen Elizabeth for a round the world cruise in 2021

[@josephpadula2283]

@@1chish Non vstol us navy planes with tail hook landing systems can only land on US or the compatible French carrier . Harriers and other similar planes like the f-35 vtol model could always land anywhere

[@1chish]

@@josephpadula2283 So what is so special about "planes with tail hook landing systems"? Given we invented those systems in the '50s and most every other carrier system we have moved on. Its the 21st century ... The French carrier is 45,000 tons. The UK QE Class are 70,000 tons. The French have 38 old Rafale Ms where the QEs can ship 60+ aircraft. they can also launch first sorties quicker than either a Nimitz or the De Gaulle. RN F-35s can launch with 22,000 Ib loads. US Navy F-35Cs can only launch with 18,000 Ibs (Lockheed Martin website).

[@TheArgieH]

@josephpadula2283 They land IN the French Carrier, have they brought.the hangar flight deck back then? That's daring!

[@1chish]

@@TheArgieH 😂👍

[@kenjackson5685]

1st class

[@mnblkjh6757]

🇬🇧🇺🇸👍🙂

[@RalphReagan]

Better late than never, the Brits coming to the Pacific.

[@Cailus3542]

They were there at the very beginning. However, the sinking of Force Z and the British failure to counter the Indian Ocean raid forced the British out of the theatre, as did the loss of Singapore. The disaster at Java Sea was the final nail in the coffin.

[@paulfisher8753]

That was said about the USA in 1917 and 1941. Better late than never..

[@dovetonsturdee7033]

Having, of course, taken on the commitment of fighting, and winning, Allied naval campaigns in the Atlantic, the Arctic, and the Mediterranean, thus enabling the US Navy to concentrate almost entirely in the Pacific. The relevant word here being 'Allied.'

[@nickdanger3802]

@@paulfisher8753 please direct me to the agreements that required the USA to join in every time Britain declared war on Germany.

[@nickdanger3802]

@@dovetonsturdee7033 1941 October USS Reuben James, launched 1919, sunk near Iceland whilst escorting a British convoy. 1942 April Arctic Convoy PQ15 One USN battleship, 2 heavy cruisers and 5 destroyers. 1942 May USS Wasp launched Spits to Malta for the second time in 2 months concurrent with Coral Sea.

[@copferthat]

Request from Admiral King? What a hypocrite, he hated the British for some reason. When I moved into the house I'm in now, 40 years ago, my neighbour had served on the Victorious throughout WW2, including in the Pacific and so I got to learn a lot about the ol' girl.

[@nickdanger3802]

British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, fearing that Malta would be "pounded to bits", asked President Roosevelt to allow USS Wasp to have "another good sting." and Wasp loaded another contingent of Spitfire Vs at King George V Dock Glasgow and sailed for the Mediterranean on 3 May in Operation Bowery. On this occasion, the group included the British carrier HMS Eagle with her own load of Spitfires. The two carriers reached their launching points early on Saturday, 9 May - Wasp steaming in column ahead of Eagle at a distance of 1,000 yards (910 m). At 06:30, Wasp launched 11 Wildcats of VF-71 to serve as CAP over the task force. First, Eagle flew off her 17 Spitfires in two waves; then Wasp flew off 47 more.

[@Backwardlooking]

Of course the Americans didn’t want a British Pacific Fleet. Admiral King is known to have been an Anglophobe. Nor for that matter a French presence as with the French battleship Richelieu. That was due to their anti colonial attitude.

[@Cailus3542]

Even when the BPF arrived, the US Navy made a point of giving them "minor" missions. The Americans, perhaps understandably, wanted all the glory. Ironically, the last duel between big gun warships very nearly involved neither the Americans or the British. It would have been very odd if Richelieu had caught Haguro instead of the British destroyers.

[@jamiejones7325]

If I recall War at Sea, despite his name, USN Adm King was anti-British, and cost the lives of thousands refusing advice even in black-outs. Nimitz, German family, ordered him to ‘shape up or ship out’ welcoming RN officers, including Canadian experience against U-boats, Aussies even a couple of Kiwis on staff at sea. Admiral Lee couldn’t get enough RN advice, sadly he didn’t survive. He pointed out to deaf ears that the RN built and trained the IJN and to this day even the US Pac Fleet was withdrawn from South China Sea protecting Sea lanes and Taiwan, the Chinese were hopping mad threatening war when the RN with RCN, RAN, RNZN then salt to the world the IJN carriers all merged perfectly as if always part of RN operations. Russia was not amused either. Sadly propaganda Keri’s S Korea refusing to make up with Japan like Taiwan even Vietnam whining for Japan to ‘grow up’ and get rid if US written Article 9. But goes to show irony within nations. Adm Lee had long complained that the US had fallen way behind in RN and IJN basic training not relying on technology, especially radar, and night fighting. He couldn’t even get the Admiralty to admit FACT IJN officers many pilots spoke English, the ‘official language ‘ of the IJN past 1924. We were in bins when the Japs and Brits reunited, Beijing was Livid all the more when India signed military alliance with Australia ‘out of the blue’ requesting the RN to joint carrier ops in Indian Ocean. Soviets before Russia again long accused ‘5 eyes’.

[@nickdanger3802]

"refusing advice even in black-outs" USN jurisdiction stopped at the shoreline.

[@jamiejones7325]

@@nickdanger3802 they were speaking of ships at sea.

[@nickdanger3802]

@@jamiejones7325 if you think you can make a case for the RN performing better in 1917 than the USN did in 1942 when the USA went to being "neutral" to at war with the entire Axis in four days, please do so.

[@jamiejones7325]

@@nickdanger3802 1st US joined British and Canucks in WW1 war with first U-boat war. Black out ships hardly novel idea. The Germans call it the 2nd? ‘Happy time’ for Uboats. Most US military, after disastrous experience under France in WW1 had officer exchange programs and coordinating. Though 90% American and Congress against war with Hitler anyone, FDR was target of FBI fur manufacturing one. Turns out WE were lying, the Lusitania in the STUPIDEST war that century so far; we WERE smuggling munitions and weapons on US passenger ships. WW2 America and Britain and France has kept up cooperation in R&D too. What’s mine is yours. There were MORE examples of brilliant cooperation between Limeys and Yanks even ‘officially neutral’. But there were examples of vanity and ego, nation and personal. Montgomery and Patton, Clark and everyone. I’d laugh but people lost lives unnecessarily. We should learn from our mistakes. Today you men oblivious to we usurping you everywhere and future without you. ‘Toxic masculinity.’ We women would never let you present us as unnecessary in feminine roles. There is a reason even non-English dictionaries include the word ‘FemiNazism’ decades now. Men are seemingly too weak and ‘not smart’ to tolerate anymore. You should learn from history but be aware what’s happening all around you NOW.

[@nickdanger3802]

@@jamiejones7325 Is English your first language ?