USS Wolverine and USS Sable - Paddle Carriers of the Icy North

[@Drachinifel]

Pinned post for Q&A :)

[@brendonbewersdorf986]

Did any countries still use colliers in WW2 or had everyone totally switched over so much to oil that coal resupply at sea was unnecessary? If not are there any examples of colliers that were still in naval service at the time?

[@bkjeong4302]

Has there ever been an attempt by other nations to convert vessels into training carriers?

[@f12mnb]

Wonderful! I live on the Great Lakes in the USA and long have heard of these strange and fantastic vessels. Did I hear right that there are still 60-260 aircraft wrecks in Lake Michigan?

[@tylerkenzer8354]

One thing I seem to notice is the japanese lose an exceptional amount of ships to air power. This seems to be partially due to their antiaircraft suit. In out AA video you mentioned how Japan never had a medium caliber anti aircraft weapon. Why was this? Did they think it wasn’t needed, were their failed attempts or was there some other issue?

[@themanformerlyknownascomme777]

Had rotor sails been invented 20 years earlier and/or received far more popularity when introduced. Do you think we would see them in use on Naval Auxiliary craft? (Submarine tenders, colliers, oil tankers, ect)

[@russellmoore6675]

I work at the USS Hornet museum. Our Wildcat was lifted from the bottom of Lake Michigan and restored over many years. Looks amazing today-like straight out of the factory!

[@louisinjoliet8546]

Fresh water doesn't corrode the metal as quickly as salt water.

[@alangaudry724]

I worked with a man who remembers when they dumped aircraft into the Great lakes after WWII

[@johnmatthesen1186]

There’s a Wildcat at the Pima Air & Space Museum in Arizona that was recovered from Lake Michigan as well. It hasn’t been restored much, but it’s interesting to seeing how well it survived.

[@chijohnaok]

There are also a recovered F4F Wildcat and SBD Dauntless from Lake Michigan now at the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola, Florida

[@atomicsquirrel6457]

⁠@@louisinjoliet8546Lake Superior is so deep that lots of ships are really well preserved, too.

[@Malibu1515]

"The Rising Sun Express Sunday Delivery Service." "Landing on a carrier several miles under the surface is notoriously difficult." 😂...oh my Drach, you're on a roll today.

[@TheMadness51]

I think he may have seen the shenanigans going on where I work. It was making me say the same kind of sarcastic remarks.

[@richardmalcolm1457]

The Drachisms come fast and furious on this installment.

[@vikkimcdonough6153]

"And so the hunt began for a suitable victim - I, I mean _volunteer."_ "Which, these days, I suppose, would correspond to a dozen F350s, three Dodge Rams, and a Hummer."

[@chuckmarble2365]

@@richardmalcolm1457 They're a big part of what I love about Drach's presentations!

[@danielbackley9301]

Isn't he always?

[@Rutherford_Inchworm_III]

"Paddlewheel coal fired carriers on the Great Lakes? Sure, that's worth a free 30 minute presentation." In terms of cost vs. content delivered, Drach is utterly without parallel. He is the King of the Sea.

[@timothysullivan2997]

They still find some of the planes that crashed off the Wolverine and Sable.

[@williestyle35]

​@@timothysullivan2997 yep. The Great Lakes might have been a "safe" place for training, but pilots will be pilots.

[@Thirdbase9]

Or Lake in this case.

[@dgthe3]

@@timothysullivan2997 Wonder where Lake Michigan ranks on the list of 'highest number of plane crashes on a lake'.

[@oliverbenes6365]

More like the King of the lakes

[@Nexusgamer8472]

"And so the hunt began for a suitable victim err i mean "Volunteer"" oh Drach never change

[@enjibkk6850]

Come on, they should be proud, and will live on in the internet memory forever

[@petesheppard1709]

'Voluntold'...😎

[@Doc_Tar]

Over 17,000 pilot qualifications seems incredible. These vessels made a significant contribution to the war effort and only now starting to be remembered for their important role to the nation. An excellent review if this interesting piece of history.

[@c4sualcycl0ps48]

Would have been so cool to have Wolverine as a museum ship here on the Great Lakes. Sure it didn’t see any combat but this ship and its sister ship were critical for the rapid improvement of American naval aviators in WWII.

[@themanformerlyknownascomme777]

Wolverine was already in horrific shape even BEFORE she was converted. Strictly speaking, her conversion into an aircraft carrier was her one 'get out of jail fee card' that gave an extension to her life.

[@RonJohn63]

"Would have been so cool" for you to pay for it.

[@elennapointer701]

There was an attempt to do that, but they couldn't raise the funds needed to both purchase and preserve it. A crying shame, really.

[@patrickwatrin5093]

​@@RonJohn63😂🎉😮😊 booyah thanks for that comment. I have felt so alone on this issue for some time. It is a shame to hear that refrain from our fellow citizens all day all over the place. I regret that it had to be said here, because of the environment of censorship but that being said I understand what you mean by that comment. It's just that the lovers always come back at you.because they are so tolerant...

[@RonJohn63]

@@patrickwatrin5093 yeah, it sure is a shame that all our dreams don't just magically happen.

[@chuckschultz7028]

17,000 carrier qualified pilots was an incredible feat. There is a YT site with memoirs of Japanese pilots explaining that their superiors refused to properly man and fund pilot training. The pilots who attacked Pearl Harbor were never allowed to teach incoming cadets and the fleet air forces suffered a continued decline in skill level as the wat progressed. The Cornbelt Fleet deserves to be celebrated.

[@Stormoak]

The Japanese Navy Aircorps like the German Luftwaffe led most of their airmen fly un to most of them were killed, wounded or missing in action. The Pilot Training was rushed up to fill the gaps. But there are several historical sources that the Japanese Navy delieberatly send some of the remaining veteran pilots just back to japan to create some elite home defense units when they thrown away deliberatly the life of thousend of nearly untrained airmen in kamikaze missions.

[@thomasb1889]

@@StormoakThere is a big difference between the Japanese and the Germans on this. Japanese pilots were in constant combat with little or no down time unless the unit was pulled out of the line for some reason. Germany never had the pilot reserves to do like the US and Britain once they got through The Battle of Britain of rotating pilots home to train new pilots after a certain amount of time in combat. However, Germany did regularly rotate their pilots and other air crew home for R & R which while not as good as what the US and Britain did helped avoid the burnout that was the death of many experienced pilots in WWI.

[@BobSmith-dk8nw]

The thing his - Japan had only really made a decision to stop being a Feudal Nation in 1870. Because of this - there were a lot of things during WWII - where the Japanese really didn't know what they were doing. Try as they might - and they did try - you just can't make up for hundreds of years of Organizational Experience in a few decades. So - their pilot training program was horrific. There was a way pilots got rotated - but it was very hit and miss so that most of their pilots got sent out to die. If they became injured or wounded - THEN - they might get sent back home. A bullet in his head from an American Tail Gunner first day of Guadalcanal saved Saburo Saki. Because he was sent home - he was not there to be consumed by Japans failed air assault on Guadalcanal. Even in their assigned combat units - the veteran pilots were so certain they would be left there until they died - that they had very poor morale. So - instead of having the veterans teaching the new pilots the ropes - the command isolated the new pilots from the veterans so they would not be infected by their defeatism. Then of course - they had fuel problems ... .

[@101jir]

Important to keep in mind that there was a massive gear shift as the war progressed for the IJN from overwhelming quality over quantity and tons of flight hours before ever seeing combat, to the exact opposite. Initially, US pilots were dwarfed by the IJN in trainee flight time, but it didn't last long. If I can remember the MAH video that explained this I will let you know.

[@CorePathway]

The US (and Canada) is ridiculously overpowered. Resources? Check. People? Check. Manufacturing? Check. Thousands of miles behind front lines? Check.

[@aidenbrewer3893]

as a Michigan resident so happy to see these ol boats get some recognition

[@Easy-Eight]

17K trained aviators... Japan and German never stood a chance in the long run.

[@cv990a4]

Fun fact - there is still one coal-powered ship on the Great Lakes: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Badger I took this from Ludington, MI to Manitowoc WI back in 2017 on my way across country. It's wild to be in the middle of Lake Michigan, no land visible. They don't call them Great Lakes for nothing.

[@SvenNap]

Your friend Mike Brady showed them some love too

[@Megalobatrachus]

My father-in-law made 10 deck landings on Wolverine on 29 September 1942 flying a Wildcat (then Martlet to the RN) F4F4B. 892 Royal Naval Air Squadron were working up at Norfolk, Virginia, and flew to Glenview on 28 September via Pittsburgh and Toledo. He was Jack Gordon Large, later Lt Cdr, DSC, RNVR.

[@mpetersen6]

I didn't know that RN pilots trained on the Fresh Water Carriers but it makes sense.

[@cp1cupcake]

@@mpetersen6 Drach mentioned it in the video.

[@markbike5288]

Photo at @ 25:14 of British marked plane. I'm glad there were not AA guns prevalent on or near the Great Lakes, as a British Roundel could have been mistaken for a Rising Sun. Think I'm joking? Say Kamchatka 3 times 🙂

[@TWX1138]

@@mpetersen6 Given the nature of the remnants of the British Empire and the location of Canada with regard to these training carriers, it was suitable for the exact same reasons for the British pilots as the American pilots. It was safely inland, away from the front, and offered he realistic weather needed.

[@davidlewis5312]

​@@mpetersen6I mean Canada is right there

[@ricdale7813]

When I was a Kid in the 70's I did a School report about the Great Lakes Carriers. At that time there wasnt much available info in my local libraries. My teacher thought it was a made up story so when she contacted an older gentleman that was in the Navy in the late 40's he confirmed that in fact two Lake carriers were produced for WWII Flight Training. I only received a B on the report because of the lack of more data available at the time. I felt quite vindicated when the Story of the Lake Air Craft Carrier's was confirmed in a written letter from Great Lakes Academy a few years later. I had heard there were a couple subs also in the Great Lakes for similar safe training. After all the Great Lakes are as large as a Legit Large Sea but with the benefit of fresh and somewhat crystal clear waters. Thanks again for an Awesome in depth review of a Naval program most in the World had never heard of.

[@northwoodsrailproductions4538]

Yep, submarines were built in Manitowoc, WI and had their “sea” trials done on Lake Michigan before making their way down the Mississippi River for finishing touches around New Orleans and eventual combat. None of the freshwater builds survive above water these days, but thankfully a handful of subs are on the lakes as museums still

[@mikemulligan5731]

@@northwoodsrailproductions4538 I was at a bar, in a town on Lake Ontario, in the early 00's. A couple sailors came in and were having a beer. I noticed the insignia on their collar indicated that they were submariners, so I asked them about what they were doing in town. The one guy looked around the room first, then said in a hushed tone "Our boat is down at the Coast Guard station, but I'm not really supposed to talk about it.." I ran into him by chance again later that night at an after-hours party, and he talked about life on their sub for a couple hours, but despite my attempts to get info as to why they would be there, he wouldn't get into it.. Oswego, NY

[@TheCsel]

Yeah I’ve been to the submarine museum in Wisconsin, quite a few submarines were built on the lakes, and even today they’ve been building the newer littoral ships there and doing trials on the Lakes.

[@mpetersen6]

​@@TheCsel The yard build the Freedom Class LCS (1) in Marinette is switching over to the new frigate class 1) The building yard has little to do with uow suitable the design is. That's the BuShips responsibility.

[@markbike5288]

The Rush-Bagot agreement 1817 and Pact 1818 ,,,,,,,,state.gov/milestones/1801-1829/rush-bagot restricts armament of ships on the Great lakes. Subs built in Manitowoc were therefore forbidden to arm. The trip over the Chicago canal to the Mississippi and New Orleans was also probably limiting to their weight (displacement) as well. I once had the great idea that SLBMs should be based in the Great Lakes and didn't understand why no one else thought of this obvious (to a 11 year old) solution. Found out about the Rush-Bagot Agreement much later (in my 20's or 30's) and had that head slap moment.

[@themanformerlyknownascomme777]

as someone who actually has done a bit of studying on these vessel, I have to say, the great lake passenger liner history that Wolvierine and Sable come from is just as interesting as their conversions. These two where the end-stage of a very fascinating chapter of history: The Liners of the Great Lakes where competitive with their ocean-going kin. However, instead of aircraft, it was trains and roads that would be their demise. Ever since, there have been a couple of attempts to reintroduce such vessels to the lakes (Viking River Crusies being the most recent) However, I doubt we'll ever see the glory of these long lost titans ever truly return.

[@Dave_Sisson]

Perhaps you should look at the large fast catamarans invented in 1990. The biggest ones are 400 feet long, can go over 50 knots, carry 1200 passengers and 400 cars and trucks, although there are smaller models too. They have been successful all over the world except in North America. The only problem is the companies that make them, Incat and Austal are both Australian, so the Jones Act may prohibit their import?

[@derrith1877]

Don't forget the SS Badger and the Lake Express - both still operating car ferries across Lake Michigan. SS Badger is a coal fired steam ship - that I rode as a child more than 50 years ago and as an adult about 5 years ago.

[@chriskortan1530]

​​@@Dave_Sissonshouldn't be a problem as Austal already has a huge facility in Mobile, AL that builds the LCS for the Navy.

[@TheStefanskoglund1]

@@Dave_Sisson not that successful in Scandinavia - fuel is expensive.....

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

@@Dave_Sisson New England seems to use the British made catamarans pretty well... both for the Rhode-Island to Long-Island and various routes within Greater Boston as far as Cape Anne & Cape Cod....so, they do work for North America... at least the smaller versions of 250 passengers or so

[@josephvarno5623]

Well, since I've been agitating for these ships to get an episode, let me be the first to fanboy over this one. Thanks, Drach.

[@The_ZeroLine]

You’re agitating alright.

[@josephvarno5623]

@@The_ZeroLineDid you just come here to be unpleasant? Are you done now?

[@The_ZeroLine]

@@josephvarno5623 I was kidding. It wasn’t meant to be an insult. Breath in and out and relax.

[@jimtalbott9535]

I can see why you suggest them - they’re quite interesting.

[@josephvarno5623]

@@The_ZeroLineRemember, we can't see facial expressions in this medium and sarcasm/humor gets lost in the transmission. Plus, some folks on here do go around picking fights. So we don't get it when people are trying to be funny. I tend to end off intentional humor with [/humor] when I am trying to be funny to give the recipient warning that I am not being serious.

[@kennethhanks6712]

An interesting sidelight is that the rail car ferry "City Of Midland" was equipped with the relatively unique Skinner Uniflow reciprocating steam engines, the same as would be in many of the Navy escort carriers, so many navy engineers who would be assigned to escort carriers would be trained aboard the Midland while she performed her necessary service ferrying rail cars across the lake during the war!

[@chriskungie5552]

There is at least one Skinner Uniflow still running on Lake Michigan, in the car ferry Badger

[@michaelgrajek6444]

@@chriskungie5552 i've been on the badger! had a nice lil ride from Manitowoc to Muskegon 20ish years ago.

[@drtidrow]

I remember seeing the City of Midland, along with the Badger and Spartan, work the ferry routes out of Ludington, MI, back in the early '80s. Our family would go camping at the state park north of town, and in the evenings we'd drive back into town, get some soft-serve ice cream cones, and watch the ferries enter and leave the harbor. Fond memories... 😊

[@drtidrow]

@@michaelgrajek6444 The SS Badger is still working the ferry route between Manitowoc and Ludington, and will start daily cross-lake trips on June 14th this year. The likely reason for the relatively late start of the ferry season appears to be that the Ludington dock ramp, used for loading cars and trucks onto the ferry, was badly damaged late last year and is still being repaired.

[@michaelgrajek6444]

@@drtidrow probably won't be this year but i need to take another trip on her.

[@donjones4719]

Some years ago I read of a US pilot referring to flying through coal smoke while landing on a carrier. It didn't sound accurate but I went online and, lo and behold, found out about these two carriers. What an unexpected and fascinating story. I'm glad to see it here.

[@scottwyatt2614]

As an old sailor with personal experience with the Uniform Code of Military Justice, I am literally shuddering at the thought of what kind of horrible things a sailor would have to have done in order to have been assigned to shoveling coal on a paddle-wheeled Aircraft Carrier on the Great Lakes in WWII...

[@scudfarcus4343]

I'm guessing that more than a few sailors would have preferred shoveling coal on the great lakes than what they ended up with.

[@trooperdgb9722]

I suspect anyone with PREVIOUS coal fired ship experience might have been sought out?

[@homerthedoomer]

Thanks for the laugh 😀

[@Ebolson1019]

@@trooperdgb9722and on the lakes that wouldn’t be too hard. There were still plenty of coal fired ships here at the time and I can imagine a few people seeing this as a nice way to serve while being able to stay close to home.

[@scotchbingeington6761]

​@@Ebolson1019 I mean, the Badger is STILL coal fired, isn't it? But yeah stuff just lasts forever on the lakes, there's still vessels from the '30s and '40s, in commercial service in 2024. Not excursion or museum ships, but old boats out actually in revenue service. Like you said I'm sure they would have no problem finding experienced people in the area during the war era.

[@kevintemple245]

My great-uncle Chuck (USMC) landed on those ships a few times training in SBD Dauntless. Survived a harrowing mid-air collision with his wingman, and both were able to make safe landings on one of the carriers. A real testament to the ruggedness of the Dauntless.

[@josephnason8770]

My dad qualified on the Sable in 1944. I have his flight log showing 8 carrier landings that day. In 20 years these logs will be 100 years old. I was born 90 years after the end of the Civil War. Don't know why I mention this. Getting old.

[@5peciesunkn0wn]

​@@josephnason8770get that beauty digitized! And possibly in a digital archive. That sort of thing is really neat.

[@kennethdeanmiller7324]

Qualified over 17,000 pilots! That is huge! Having over 17,000 pilots that can land on a carrier, makes you wonder how many pilots in all were trained during the war considering that over 17k were approved for carrier operation, more than likely the number of pilots that were trained & approved for land operations were probably 10x that number.

[@ex-iu6ci]

The Air Zoo museum in Kalamazoo, Michigan is currently restoring a Wildcat that was lost from USS Sable. It can be seen by visitors to the museum annex. In the main building they have a fully restored SBD that was also lost on the lake on display.

[@Jon.A.Scholt]

I worked at the Air Zoo for 5 years and was there the day they trailered in the second SBD. There was a whole ceremony and everything. Also, at least when I was there in the late 2010s, they had an awesome model of the Wolverine next to the first restored SBD.

[@jamesjarrait2231]

That’s an amazing museum. Along with the planes mentioned, they also have an F-14, an SR-71, an engine from an A-10 that was shot up, an R-2800 Wasp engine on display… It goes on and on.

[@silentotto5099]

The conditions at the bottom of the great lakes, cold fresh water, are fantastic for preserving artifacts. One Dauntless they pulled off the bottom turned out to be a veteran of the Battle of Midway and is the only Midway veteran in existence.

[@thomasb1889]

Unfortunately Lake Michigan is warm enough for the invasive Zebra Mussel and they damage the planes that are in shallow water.

[@DblIre]

Lake Superior is so cold that logs that sunk almost 150 years ago have recently been recovered and are in perfect condition.

[@thomasb1889]

@@DblIreThey have been pulling log up out of Chequamegon Bay near Ashland, WI for over 20 years now.

[@aidanfarnan4683]

"And landing on a carrier that's several miles under water is notoriously difficult..." God Bless you Drach.

[@deaks25]

I remember reading that the T-6 Texan was probably the single most important aircraft no-one has heard of because of how important a good trainer is and I would say Wolverine and Sable might also be deserving of a similar accolade for the USN. The USN's ability to churn out good quality pilots at a high rate is highlighted as one of the reason for the victory over the IJN, and Wolverine and Sable will have been at the very heart of that and so while they never saw combat, like the Texan, they absolutely made a war-winning contribution.

[@ROBERTN-ut2il]

They were SNJ's not T-6's

[@crazypetec-130fe7]

@@ROBERTN-ut2il They're the same plane, North American's Texan, with a few details changed for USN and USAAF.

[@BleedingUranium]

Not sure if this'll be a popular opinion, but man, these two have to be among the best looking carriers ever produced. The short vertical height, proportionally wide flight deck, and how it has so much overhang are so cool. :O

[@stitch626aloha]

RIP, Kings of the Great Lakes. You bore your burden with pride and majesty. May your places in Valhalla be unconditional and uncontested.

[@bebo4807]

Yes. The crew consisted of elves dwarves hobbits and wizards.

[@Nightdare]

@@bebo4807 Vikings, my good lad,... Vikings

[@bebo4374]

@@Nightdare The football team ? I’ll be darned.

[@paulsakz1532]

This has to be one of the coolest and most innovative ideas for training in the entire war.

[@barrydysert2974]

Thank You Drach. When i requested a 5 Minute Guide on these 2 ships a couple months ago i expected it would be much longer before they'd make it to the top of the queue! Of course it may be You had earlier requests than mine. After all, who wouldn't want to know about coal fired, paddlewheel aircraft carriers?!? You made my day !:-)

[@xwingace1234]

I’m a docent at the Kalamazoo Air Zoo over in Michigan. We have a SBD-3 Dauntless that we restored in the 90s and we have helped restored three more planes from Lake Michigan. An SBD-2P (now at Pearl Harbor), an FM-2 Wildcat found in 2012, and an SBD-1 that is the only dash 1 still around.

[@paul4835]

It was well worth the visit to that museum.

[@DblIre]

Did you know Dick Schaus? I went to WMU with him.

[@cartmann94]

“Realistically broken aircraft”. As opposed to unrealistic and fantastically broken aircraft.

[@redcat9436]

I've worked on some unrealistic and fantastically broken aircraft...

[@ThatSlowTypingGuy]

It's like when they pour dirt on a carpet in those vacuum cleaner commercials vs a carpet that has seen actual use.

[@franksayre9011]

The accent sells it.

[@hillogical]

Orchard Place is why the airport code for O'Hare is still ORD. Edit: I also know it isn't the British way, but we call it "El-jin".

[@chriskungie5552]

And, of course, It's now called O'Hare after Navy fighter pilot "Butch" O'Hare, a local native and the Navy's first WW2 ace.

[@BleedingUranium]

@@chriskungie5552Yep, and the terminal has an F4F on display, set up as if it's just touching down on a carrier. Saw it myself a veeeeery long time ago. :)

[@jinkky]

Yes, I came here to say the same. The Midwest has many towns and cities names mispronounced from the original European name. Because that's how we roll.

[@mikewilliams5671]

​@BleedingUranium it's still there. I see it every day before I clock in

[@BleedingUranium]

@@mikewilliams5671Nice, very cool! I also work at an airport, but we don't have any cool display aircraft :(

[@USSCod]

As always an outstanding production! One correction however... those planes flown aboard the training carriers were often battle-damaged veterans from the early years of the war, including Midway. That inspired a group of intrepid amateur Indiana Jonese to search, find, and recovery several of these veterans from their Lake Michigan graves back in the early 1990s. Once high and dry they were promptly confiscated by the US Navy. Unlike the open seas, the Great Lakes are domestic waters and the Navy still claims ownership of the aircraft on the bottom. The recovered veterans are now displayed in NAVY museums!

[@sb859]

Wow...17,820 pilots were qualified on these 2 ships. That's a staggering amount of production from two paddle wheel steamers!

[@greenseaships]

18:12- these are the pilots who were helpfully contributing to late 20th century museum collections. We thank them for their donations!

[@thetankcommander3838]

As a Buffalonian who has loved seeing about these paddle carriers, THANKS A LOT DRACHINIFEL!!!

[@jthancock7055]

This is cool. I was able to adopt, donate to the restoration of, an SBD-5 that was on Wolverine

[@raynscloud8072]

I listened to an old CBS World News Today broadcast which featured a report from the deck of the Wolverine. The reporter spoke to the ship's captain and also described a few take offs happening while he was there. It was an interesting broadcast, not least because of the reporter's somewhat deadpan, sarcastic demeanor.

[@dylanjohnston5848]

Awesome to see!!! As a Midwest resident, it's great to see the interesting to see the only aircraft carriers ever to sail on the great lakes!!! Thank you for the video!

[@ericmason349]

USS Wolverine is perfect for a trivia game. Which other aircraft carrier was not had coal fired boilers but also side paddle wheels? None. Thank you for this interesting presentation.

[@Jan-hx9rw]

Excellent video. I first stumbled across the Wolverine and Sable around 22 years ago. Worked with a number of ex- US Navy Chief Petty Officers who were enthralled to realize there were three different fuels used by US Navy carriers: nuclear, oil, and... coal. The possibilities to mess with the heads of sailors at promotion boards would have been amazing, and they almost regretted being retired and thus unable to inflict such miseries on applicants at those promotion boards. In the Army, I'd had to answer the question "How many holes are there in a C-ration cracker?", something that the entire defense of the free world obviously hinged on throughout the 1970s.... The answer is, by the way, "37" If you ever do a collaboration with MRESteve1989, you can spring that one on him. 😀

[@ravager2-636]

I always wondered what a steampunk aircraft carrier would look like.. Never thought of sticking paddle wheels on the sides & man is it perfect..

[@paul4835]

I visited an aircraft museum in Michigan and they had a WW2 aircraft restored, after salvage from Lake Michigan. Other WW2 aircraft are still below the surface in Lake Michigan.

[@Jon.A.Scholt]

The Kalamazoo Air Zoo! I worked there for 5 years and was there when they brought the second salvaged SBD to the restoration department!

[@paul4835]

@@Jon.A.Scholt, Correct, Last time I was there, they were working on a F4F fighter pulled from the lake. I think restorations were undertaken for other museums as well ?

[@Jon.A.Scholt]

@@paul4835 Yes, it was an F4F now that I think on it. The one they brought in when I worked there was in 2017 I think, maybe 2018. In any case, always a great visit!

[@Tundraviper41]

As a michigander, I thank you, Drach, for explaining important but not readily acknowledged ships. The lakes can be a dangerous place to be in at times, Including the Riptides.

[@chijohnaok]

Agreed, the Great Lakes can be very dangerous. Just look at the Edmund Fitzgerald.

[@prussianhill]

"City of Midland"! Pleasantly surprised that my landlocked hometown was mentioned in a five minute guide (with the ship being named after the city of course).

[@ChrisHessert]

Near and dear to my heart. I grew up in Evanston, IL - 4 blocks from Lake Michigan. Used to watch the Blue Angels practice for air shows over the lake shore, flying out of Glenview NAS. In the 1960s, we frequently got sonic booms, too.

[@CapnDan57]

A fascinating story! Nearly 18,000 Navy pilots trained on these two ships. There are continuing projects to recover planes lost in Lake Michigan. The F4F Wildcat at O'Hare is one of those that has been restored. There are also Hellcats, Dauntless' and Avengers. Most are in good shape, due to being in fresh water, with usually only invasive species (mussles) contamination. There are a number of very good YT vids about these aircraft and recovery projects, wish links in comments were allowed. Being a native Michigander and Navy veteran, I'm always amazed at the lack of understanding and exposure to the importance of shipping on the Great Lakes. I hope to capture video of USS Constellation FFG-62 sailing on Lake Michigan after her commisioning.

[@josephsanjour4188]

There's also a restored SBD hanging inside Midway airport.

[@gregingold3670]

Michigan resident here who lives nearby Lake Michigan, just checking in to say thank you for hi lighting some of our regional history!

[@DaremoKamen]

The Oshkosh Fly In didn't even get started until five years after Sable was scrapped, but it would have been fun if Wolverine or Sable had been preserved and became a part of it.

[@floridachess9328]

I love hearing about these two carriers because the amount of museum aircraft they "helped preserve" the warbird museum I work at has two aircraft that spent some time in Lake Michigan with a FM-1 Wildcat and an SBD Dauntlass. The coolest part was when they restored the wildcat they found the pilot who ditched it lived nearby and had survived the war and the museum had him come in and sit in the aircraft after all those years.

[@e.k.bellinger9496]

Thanks so much for covering these! As a kid, I visited Navy Pier several times when it hosted small merchant ships. I enjoyed seeing the photo of aircraft carriers there. A little historical note: Drach has mentioned the fact that the coastal businesses resisted "lights out" rules, resulting in the loss of a lot of merchant seamen. Meanwhile, Midwestern factory owners followed blackout rules. I remember seeing windows still painted black on factories in Chicago and Milwaukee in the 1960s!

[@carlsmith8176]

Fun fact, I grew up right next to the Glenview naval air base and after they decommissioned the base they built a community pool there. They named it splash landings because of all the naval aviators who took off there and ended up in the lake. They also have huge model planes hanging from the ceiling of the pool too

[@johnpisciotto7115]

As a lifelong chicagoan, I gave this a thumbs up during the introduction ad. Thank you sir!

[@michaelpfister1283]

OK, the arial shot of Navy Pier at Chicago, complete with the training carriers in dock, @ 4:03 is amazing. :-) Thank you for covering Wolverine and Sable! I grew up in Muskegon, MI and I have visited Navy Pier several times in my life. These two carriers were unsung heroes of WWII, training many pilots in the basics before they had to enter the war zone. Just another reason the USA was unassailable in WWII! Great video! Thank you Drac!

[@michaelfrank2266]

I see lots of comments saying, about time! For myself: I'm from Wisconsin and I had no clue they trained carrier pilots on the Great Lakes much less anything about these pair of paddlewheel coal fired carriers. All I knew is we made submarines and other small ships. Very interesting Drach.

[@Tyrs_Finox]

I saw some of the aircraft they used on these carriers at the Naval Air Museum in Pensacola Florida. The great thing about aircraft recovered from Lake Michigan is that the lake is freshwater, cold and in the case of the deeper parts, lower in oxygen, so the level of preservation is great. I mean once you get past the fact that they're all essentially wrecks, but still. Great video, brings up some good memories.

[@ROBERTN-ut2il]

The airfield code for Orchard Place was ORcharD = ORD. And that is still used today by O'Hare

[@trailmixup8843]

As a midwesterner I’m glad to see these two being covered

[@TimvanderLeeuw]

That was a very interesting introduction to ships I knew nothing about!

[@ThatsSir2TheLikesOfU]

Thanks Drach for detailing this improtant and fascinating subject matter! Keep up the good work!

[@waywardscythe3358]

I'll second the Rex's Hangar shoutout. hes got great videos.

[@orangealiens8201]

Whilst I love videos about battles and high stakes engagements, there’s this sorta charm I find in the videos on the less glorious sides of war. Like this one, the series on the salvage work in Pearl Harbour, or The Chieftains video on armoured vehicle recovery. Idk I think learning about how war works in a non-combat sense is neat and I’d love more videos of this type.

[@janerkenbrack3373]

That was the best summation of these two vessels I've seen. And this includes an exhibit at the Siversides Museum in Muskegon. You hit all the relevant points and added some humor. Only one criticism, which is intended for your benefit, is that Elgin is pronounced with a soft "g." El-Jin." It is the same as the famous watch company, which was based there for a very long time.

[@robertl6196]

Oh, irony. I'm here less than a mile from Lake Michigan, and YES, it is cold as hell.

[@bf1701]

I love weird one-off ships, and I love when Drach's channel intersects with local history of the Chicago area. Couldn't ask for a better mid-week episode.

[@williestyle35]

As a former Chicago resident, it is fantastic to see Drachinifel cover these ships! The Wolverine and Sable have been covered by other channels, but nobody can bring the ... insight and commentary that Drachinifel does. 13:25 the cinema aboard ship was a good example, considering how important those instructional films were during WWII (and after, just ask any of us that sat through the "safe driving" or "only you can prevent vd" films ("staring Troy McClure") that have been shown in schools...).

[@michaelanderson8186]

Yeah, don't know how big film presentations are in British education, but they were huge in US education through the Eighties, and they were certainly important to military training and education, too. Although sometimes by way of negative examples - for example, "The Man From LOX".

[@williestyle35]

@@michaelanderson8186 same. I'm not sure if Drachinifel would have grown up with educational films in the classroom, but I sure remember several. Even in my driver's education course there were those "blood on the highways" style films.

[@WilltheNinja]

Would be interesting to get a video on British and Japanese carrier pilot training

[@MeduseldRabbit]

For anyone who wants to check it out, the Air Zoo in Kalamazoo, Michigan has several of the retrieved and restored planes that didn't quite stick the landing, among a great many other exhibits. We went there several years ago, and if funds come available would happily make another trip halfway across the US to visit again.

[@andrewreynolds9371]

thanks for covering these ships. they may never have fought a single action, but their contribution to the effort to qualify Navy pilots during WWII was a major factor in building up and maintaining the power of naval aviation. besides, these ships are a classic example of the old philosophy of "Got a problem? Find a solution!" and they were an unorthodox, but also brilliant, solution.

[@johngreally9599]

Non-slip metal on wood over paddle with coal on ice on lake.... this will be a popular production.

[@mahbriggs]

Back in 1981, when I made an East Coast tour, I was in a ship museum that had a miniture model of these ships. No name, no explanation. I wasn't sure if they were real ships or someone's fantasy ship. I tried after I got home to find out if they were real, but not finding any information about them concluded they were a fantasy fake. I was somewhat shocked when, a few years later, I saw an article about them in a naval history magazine!

[@davethompson3326]

I feel confident that the stripped out luxurious fittings and furniture went to many good Navy homes and messes.

[@PointyHairedJedi]

Just think, if Canada had suddenly attacked, we could have had Pykrete carriers versus paddlewheels on the Great Lakes...

[@thomasrich2833]

There is a large lego model of the wolverine on display at a lighthouse just north of Rodgers City, Michigan on the shores of Lake Huron. It was created by a boy scout for his eagle scout badge. Quite impressive.

[@josephsoczka3757]

As a Wisconsinite my whole life I’ve been waiting for the mighty drach to cover our fresh water navy for quite some time I was hoping for a 5 minute video, but a Wednesday feature?!! 🤤🤤 yes please!!

[@CAPDude44]

As a Michigan resident, I'm so glad to see you finally covering these two awesome ships

[@shipwrecksunday]

Looks like we had the same idea this week! 😂 Your research is unmatched, sir! Awesome video!

[@NovusDawn1]

My dad used to tell me stories about how he used to go and watch the planes land and take off from the carriers as a kid. Back then Navy Pier was ACTUALLY a naval Pier but was still a place kids would hang around to have some fun. He passed a few years ago but I still remember the smile he had telling these stories to me and I miss him dearly. Thank you Drach for covering one of his fondest childhood memories.

[@edwardpate6128]

Great video! Just a note however, Great Lakes car ferries didn't transport automobiles but railway cars.

[@NVRAMboi]

Thanks Drach. The resourcefulness and imagination of the Allies during this period never fails to impress me.

[@SynchroScore]

My grandmother was in the WAVES and stationed at Navy Pier during the war. If I remember correctly, she taught she taught either instrumentation or navigation to trainee naval aviators.

[@draco84oz]

"...the maintenance school would therefore benefit from a constant supply of realistically broken planes to play around with." I may only be a civil engineer, but the mere thought of being part of that school is exciting on a whole new level. I can imagine even the teachers enjoying themselves trying to figure out some of the problems provided.

[@billwilson-es5yn]

The instructors were provided by Chicago's Vocational School System.

[@stephengardiner9867]

There is (or at least "was") a resin kit of the Sable. I believe that it was in 1/700 scale. Since Trumpeter released a kit of the Ranger in 1/350 scale, it would be a real hoot to see a 1/350 kit of either the Sable or the Wolverine. The Sable was the FIRST steel flight deck carrier in the U.S. Navy.

[@jehb8945]

As somebody who lives near Chicago I'm ecstatic that this video got made. Thanks Drach

[@jlivewell]

An excellent video on these important ships. Thx Drach for “re-floating” these beautiful ships…

[@meanstavrakas1044]

You are one of the VERY BEST things about KZbin.

[@nsd935]

I've been waiting for these two ships for a while. Thanks Drach!!

[@m.r.donovan8743]

As a student of the the war, and especially U.S. Naval Aviation, I found this to be terrific information. Thanks as always Drach. Brilliant Job!

[@mikew1332]

I grew up occasionally seeing Wildcats and Dauntlesses being pulled out of the lake on the local news. Sadly, very few of the airplanes at the bottom of Lake Michigan are worth salvaging anymore. The quagga and zebra mussels, both invasive species, have apparently sped up the degradation of what's left. Glenview NAS is gone too but I'm glad I got to see a Navy demonstration / airshow there in the '70's before it closed.

[@yt.602]

I'd never heard of these two and the role they played in training so many aviators, not forgetting the mechanics and test bed type things. Was a really good idea and a neat solution to a big problem.

[@moo5289]

Up until now, I could say I had heard of these ships. Thanks to Drach, I can now say I know about them.

[@triggerfingerstudios]

I've been on lake michigan in a small sailboat, and it can be like being on the open ocean. its wild.

[@krakoosh1]

First time the thought came up, how did aviators return to a moving airfield? Quite interesting. They used a radio receiver called YE-ZB. The ship sent out a morse code signal and the letter indicated which direction to fly. Anyone without this receiver just heard static.

[@hillogical]

It may be because I'm biased, but 4:22 only reinforces my belief that Chicago has ALWAYS been beautiful.

[@Aethgeir]

I'd never heard of these before. This channel is always great for the obscure and interesting.

[@clanrobertson7200]

My father was a gunner/copilot on a Douglas Dauntless SBD that was part of a fleet that was assembled in California (not sure which part of the state) and taken up to the Aleutian Islands to be a part of the planned invasion of Japan after the Battle of Okinawa but fortunately for everyone that became unnecessary following the second Atomic Bomb being dropped on Nagasaki. My Dad said that they piled the perishables, clothing, medical supplies, vehicle and aviation fuel and lubricants on the shores and burned them and then began dumping their tanks, transport vehicles and motorcycles, weapons, ammunition (I can’t remember if he said that they burned some of the guns and ammunition ashore or not) and the planes. As a kid of about 4 or 5 hearing him talking with friends that would come to see him and talk about their time in the service and describing this and being told that it was cheaper to destroy everything than to bring it back was difficult for me to understand the fleet returned to California, where my father finished his enlistment as an NCO at 29 Palms and was offered the opportunity to be a test pilot. He turned it down and came home to Southern West Virginia where he worked for US Steel and was trained at the University of West Virginia as an Electrician where he pioneered the change from mules pulling the carts of coal to wiring the mines and the maintenance shops to electric motorcars . By age 10 we had moved to Central Florida where he owned a series of 3 different Gulf Oil Service Stations starting with an old 3 pump station that we cleaned from top to bottom and within a year, Gulf built a million dollar station with double rain awnings, double work bays and a tire store. 6 years later they offered him a station in a different town that they demolished while we kept it open and constructed a 13 pump, 3 bay and another tire center which became the highest volume Gulf Oil Service Station in Florida excluding a truck stop located at the I 75 and Sunshine Parkway to Miami. My point about rambling about living in Central Florida is that we often saw the night launches from Cape Canaveral and my father remembered the offer to fly as a test pilot at 29 Palms realizing that that was where the astronauts had originated from. Being an NCO might have kept him from that program, but he never knew. The old professor Live free or die! Death ☠️ to all tyrants, all tyrants foreign and domestic!!! Pedophiles too!! No Shit………….

[@clanrobertson7200]

My intention was to see if you were interested in a video of that fleet that never went to Japan during WWII

[@mlbs4803]

Wow! Thanks for doing this video. One of my cousins trained on these 2 ships. He later served on the 2nd USS Lexington.

[@ethanmacdonald2196]

I love to see these carriers get a shout out! I live not far from one of the piers that were modified to be able to accept these carriers, they built them all up and down the lake michigan coast. Also president Gerald Ford served on the Wolverine during the war so we actually had two future presidents on them!

[@carltontweedle5724]

Drac I have heard of these but did not understand how important they ended up being. Also training British pilots. Thanks for showing us all the way the war was won. I hope in 20 years you will not be talking about the next one. Thank you for the truth.

[@aritapper4279]

As someone living near Duluth, MN on Lake Superior, it's always nice to see a little more light shone on this little area of the world and just went on on the really big lakes up here, and it gives me more things to use to explain to people just how big these lakes actually are. Also, considering the weather up here; "safe" is an extremely relative term when it comes to operations on the lakes.

[@jamesburnett7085]

Very informative with great humor. The text at 27:55-28:14 brought out a belly laugh here.

[@Apollyon-er4ut]

I'm definitely a military history guy, but the Sable and Wolverine were completely new to me. Thank you so much for all the work you do revealing naval history around the world.

[@allancarey2604]

Awesome….ive been looking forward to this on for ages…thanks for vid :)

[@pauld6967]

I have also been looking forward to this one.