Vacuum tube amplifier or preamplifier?

If you could only upgrade one product in the chain to a vacuum tube for added warmth, would it be the preamp or power amp and why? If you want to learn more, grab a copy of Paul's new book, The Audiophile's Guide. www.psaudio.com/products/the-...

[@Cujobob]

Tube preamplifiers definitely give you the soundstage you crave without completely rounding off all the notes or hiding detail (if they’re well designed). Tubes in preamplifiers generally last much longer; as well.

[@TraderDan58]

I was listening to an interview with Nelson Pass and he touched on this subject. His experience with solid state and Tube preamps and amplifiers taught him that tubes are more pleasant to listen to because of their second-order harmonics

[@graxjpg]

I know he’s gonna say tube preamp, solid state power amp. I love tube power amps for guitar but not hifi! Edit: I was right, only because I’ve watched the show for a long time haha, paul is quite the role model to me.

[@davidhawkins3328]

Paul you ain’t never lied! I put a vacuum tube preamp in my system woke up my amp! I bought a Schiit Audio Feya+ and man did it make a difference!🔊

[@fsb1284]

Just got mine after monthlong backorder...are you using stock Russian tubes? I bought matched GE 6SN7 GTA and GTB on another KZbinr’s advice...

[@getahanddown]

I recon it's complimentary distortion just like how a "lower" distortion amp with broad distortion can sound worse than a chipamp with distortion on the harmonics. It's more "natural" to our earbrain

[@guillaumeSONY]

I'm thinking about buying a Freya too, to go with my Atoll IN200 Signature

[@davidhawkins3328]

I followed Guttenburg, Ron from new record day and one other reviewers advice and stayed with the tubes that came with it. I’m told that once these tubes break in I’ll get even more. However I’m curious to tube roll. My Schiit is drive two Hafler XL280 amps in mono bridge and man did they come alive! My DH 110 pre never did this. I’m saving for some M700’s from Paul’s group. I know the new 1200’s are the new rave but I’m to much of a money guy and refuse to go over not that I can’t but because I’ve listened to a $100,000 dollar system that sounded as Paul says “like crap!” It’s all about my ear not everyone else’s. Keep listening 👂🏽 Hawkaudio 🔊

[@stevey1277]

@@fsb1284 Can you tell me where you got those tubes? I am looking for them. Thanks.

[@Michael_Michaels]

Dear @PS Audio / Paul McGowan, I'm new to your channel. I started watching your videos to learn more about amplifiers and mostly because I'm considering buying and affordable class D amp, something small and compact to use in my desk with some old Pioneer speakers (from 1976). I must say that so far it has been very enlighten to hear your explanations! Thank you.

[@bananasplitbrain476]

Tube all the way! Could not live without my tube power amp!

[@ThinkingBetter]

Just don't give up your silicon computer and phone...I can't recommend those running on tubes.

[@shodan6401]

@ThinkingBetter Let's never forget, however, that the first computers did indeed run on tubes! (But to replace my current rig with a tube computer would be pretty damned hot in the summer... 😥)

[@erichoberg3502]

Same, pre-amp and 4 power amps all built by Elson Silva.

[@equilibrium2147]

Now I am finally convinced to get a tube preamp and solid State power amp ! Thanks Paul! Lots of love from the Big Apple.

[@aerofart]

I couldn't have said it better than Paul just did. Tube preamps are magical.

[@peterjahn8403]

I am 100% with that. I was listening many years with a solid state Preamp (DNM 3CSIX) and it sounded very good. The Power Amp at the end resulted in DNM PA2B mono blocks and the to Class-D Amps. Now I changed the Preamp to a custom made tube Preamp and the Sound is just wonderful - it realy changed the complete system to a much more natural, detailed but somewhat rounder sound (without missing any details). Thank You Paul for the open words - i just LOVE your talks Greetings from Switzerland Peter

[@joyoffilming9500]

Dear Paul, just cannot resist watching your videos although I know there will be no spectecular cinematic clips with huge sound effects and great lighting. Instead, there is so much experience, wisdom, and honesty that is brought across using easy to understand language and warm vocing. Re your advice about where to put tubes into the chain if there is only budget for one device, I fully agree. A good power amp with transfer the warmth tonality of the tubes in the pre-amp sention to the speakers.

[@TheChrisleekay]

My last two amps have been hybrid integrated amps! I.e. with tubes on the pre-amp stage and solid state on the power output stage! This configuration just works so well that even the big brands are doing it now! I've been told the Mcintosh MA352 sounds amazing!!

[@InPursuitOfLiberty]

I love my McIntosh MA12000 integrated amplifier. It's a hybrid meaning tubes on the preamplifier and SSb on the amplifier and it sound incredible in terms of detail, imaging and soundstage!

[@d.l.2401]

I am just got a AIYIMA T9 Tube Preamp yesterday. I really didn't expect much for $70.00. Hook it up and I am amazed at how good it sounds hooked up to my ATI AT2505 amplifiers. It also has excellent S/N . Seriously. It also has Bluetooth and A Remote. Got it on Amazon. There were 4 but now only 1 available.

[@John-vi5vb]

I've only recently been getting back into hifi. I'm on a severely limited, shoestring budget, so I've been doing all my buying on OfferUp, FB Marketplace, and CL. I have my near field setup complete, though I'm not thrilled, so I've been looking for a more powerful amp, but now I know better! Thank you, sir!

[@pedlpower]

I just got a Rogue Sphinx v3 integrated. Tube pre and ss amp. Playing through B&W CM8 pair. WOW! Gorgeous sound.

[@lahattec]

Tubes add harmonic content, i.e., saturation, and often that results in a fuller sound, bringing out details.

[@makarov138]

I currently run an all tube buffer amp in my effects loop in my Pioneer Amplifier. I just love that sound. Brings me back to my days in the repair shop working on tube type Fender amps and stereos.

[@jasondorsey7110]

As a musician, I've found that it's best to have both in my arsenal because each is capable of a certain feel that the other isn't, to prejudicially exclude either is to do oneself a disservice

[@yannick930]

Paul i agree with you. Tube in the input and solid in the power. ❤️

[@67daltonknox]

For a while I was persuaded to use a passive preamp on the grounds that there were fewer components to degrade the signal. Then 20 odd years ago, I borrowed a tube preamp from a dealer which blew me away. The soundstage was enormous and detail enhanced. No going back.

[@adamtaylor9617]

Agree 100 percent. I made the switch a few years ago within the same brand and a/b them. The difference is stunningly obvious.

[@sean_heisler]

Just put a tube preamp into my system recently for the first time, paired with my solid state power amp, and am absolutely blown away. It would be hard to go back to solid state, at least what I had. Tonally more natural sounding, even more res and details, more airy/spatial in all directions, more layered, everything sounds more realistic, everything has weight/wholeness and the sense of presence is more palpable. Huge upgrade for my system.

[@petern7905]

Hi Sean! What preamp did you bought ? a new one or a old?

[@sean_heisler]

@@petern7905 Hi Peter! I picked up a used Musical Paradise MP-701 Mk2. Quite a piece of kit for the price.

[@lumntoob999]

Really nice choice on the preamp! I did the same thing you just did a while back, put a tube preamp on a ss power amp and was so happy with the results I thought, well a full tube amp must also be better, but after a long time trying different tube amps I came back to a hybrid setup, tube pre and ss power amp and I am happy again. It's just such a great combination, of course there are bad pairings but you can't beat a good hybrid setup.

[@hobo1452]

I swear by hybrids, like the Vincent SV-237MK. You get the best of both worlds. Tube warmth with solid state oomph.

[@jimfarrell4635]

I'm with you on that. I have a DK Design Reference Mk 3 hybrid and have had it for over 15 years. Best amp I ever had and if I want a change I just roll the preamp tubes. I also have a PrimaLuna tube integrated in a second system and I love it for acoustic music but it lacks the authority and grip of the much more powerful hybrid.

[@joshdocken4651]

One of the best integrateds I’ve heard!

[@DbeeSapphire]

I’m running a 1997 Sonic Frontiers preamp with NOS Mullard tubes to a 2021 Parasound a21+ SS amplifier. Love the detail and responsiveness of the music.

[@hifitommy]

Paul, that's my preference ever since i put my arc sp3a1 preamp if front of my ADCOM 555II amp. thanks for putting this out in the public ear. ...hifitommy

[@DANVIIL]

I went for a made in USA Rogue Sphinx v3 integrated amp with an all tube preamp and it is fantastic. You can’t go wrong.

[@Gnofg]

I have a Van Alsine Super Pas 3 which he used my dynaco pas 3 as the donor.. I also have a totally rebuilt Dynaco ST150 with all new audio grade capacitors including the tantalums. I like it a lot. I used to own a Dynaco ST 70 but this combo is sweet.

[@serloinoflamm1119]

They seem to use a lot of Windex at PS Audio. You see bottles everywhere in these videos. Maybe I should ask a question about the use of Windex in high-end audio? Does it improve transparency?

[@hxhdfjifzirstc894]

Don't use it on your computer monitor. I hear Microsoft Windex causes the blue screen of death.

[@erics.4113]

Yah they drink it. Messed up I know. But that's the only reasonable explanation.

[@mackmc7440]

I guess you never saw the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding? ~~ Windex fixes everything~~

[@oxomono]

Thank you, we learn so much from your videos. :)

[@doctorwatson1000]

I think what some enjoy about the valve amplifier sound is actually a small amount of high order (can't remember which order ) harmonic distortion that is pleasant to the ears. Not all distortion sounds bad. Technically a solid state amplifier will give a cleaner sound but at the end of the day, it's about listening pleasure more so than specifications. Some including myself also like the sound of ribbon tweeters for a similar reason.

[@andershammer9307]

I have what I consider to be a reference quality tube and solid state preamp and they are both good enough to live with but I do slightly prefer the tube preamp.

[@michaelwang9535]

Yes, Paul is right. I replaced Parasound P6 with Schiit Freya+ tube pre amp between my Dac and my Parasound power amp. It sounds so much better, the voice just sounds magical. My next move is to replace my Parasound a/b power amp with the more powerful PS audio class d M700s to see if they will make a good improvement.

[@3DaysTillGrace]

Michael Wang I have a Parasound Pre-Amp and a PS Audio class A/B amplifier. The PS Audio amplifier is one of my favorite pieces of audio equipment I’ve ever owned. I never even think about changing it. I do however periodically have doubts that the Parasound Pre-amp should be upgraded. It sounds laid back to the point of being too much.

[@michaelwang9535]

Which ps power amp do you use? Did you hook up your pre and power amp with single end cable or XLR?

[@S.A.S.H.]

I have a Freya+ (with 60s vintage GE tubes) in front of two Parasound A-23 in bridged mono mode, and connected with balanced Mogami gold cabling. It's a great combination.

[@ML-rm3vk]

sir great insight thank you from a tube person.

[@steveaustin7306]

Look at a tube buffer too. I use tube pre, ss power. Way to go for me. Did use a Cary trans/was direct into power amp. Adding the tube pre really improved it

[@santhakumar2460]

Thanks Sir for the info

[@rbyington22]

I have a BHK 250 amp and a BHK pre amp love them both

[@wilcalint]

I will agree with Paul on this one. I've mentioned before here I was involved in a very scientific study about 30-years ago on why people prefer the 'tube" sound and quantify it. Assume the power amp is perfect. Pauls BHK Series. You have two ways of creating the "tube" sound with that. Artificially ( DSP ) or using real tube hardware before the power amp. The preamp if you prefer. If you line up 100 Golden Ear Audiophiles and present them with a perfect reproduction sound and that same sound with "tube" characteristics over 90 of those Golden Ears will prefer the "tube" sound. The closest parallel I can think of is that people have gotten so used to the 24 frames per second movie look that most people prefer it over a perfect visual presentation.

[@stimpy1226]

Of the many systems that I have owned, I have enjoyed tubes in both preamp and power amps the most. About a year ago I decided to purchase highly regarded phono and linestage preamps but leave my power amp alone and even though the sound is wonderful I sort of wish that I had my tube preamp back. Not sure why I like tubes so much but I do.

[@nelsondjordjemijic1533]

I have combo tube and solid state amp for sennheiser hd650 and resaults are awesome,maybe balanced connection contributes some magic but whatever it is it so good and very enjoyable...

[@nikosidis]

This is just like my own experience. Pre. amp is very important and tubes are magic :)

[@drbarney1000]

I can't afford the kind of amplifiers and preamplifiers that are as exotic as my tastes. I learned enough useful things i my PhD in mathematical physics along with teaching myself how to design single ended triode amplifiers to build my own with the best parts adding up to a fraction of the cost of a factory built amplifier. I also like Magnepan speakers. So I made what I consider my magnum opus amplifier, an 833A SET which I run gently at 1000 Volts through a Hammond 1642SE transformer rated at 300 ma with the 833A only pulling 125 ma with a 45 triode transformer coupled to the grid. This is more than enough power to drive a Magnepan and I prefer the 45 driver to a KT88 the $350,000 WAVAC 833A uses. I also get to use polypropylene capacitors rated at 2400 Volts in the 1000 Volt power supplies while the six figure tube amps use the inferior electrolytic capacitors to save space. The cathodes require 10 Volts at 10 Amps of pure DC because tungsten cathodes won't let you get away with center tapped AC so I have to pre-charge the 4.5 Farad final filter capacitor to prevent shortening the life of the rectifier and transformer through inrush current. But all this s easy to design once you get it perfected. If you want I can email you photographs of it. I am told it would not sell because of wife acceptance factor intolerance for something that looks like it is from a Jules Verne novel.

[@NoEgg4u]

@0:28 "...for the reasons of adding some warmth to the sound" I disagree with people that want to add "warmth" (or anything) to the sound. If someone was playing a violin in your living-room, would you tell them that the real violin that is there is lacking warmth, and needs to have its sound put through a tube amp to sound better than the actual instrument? The viewer's (Printum?) question is probably based on him having a harsh sounding solid-state pre-amp (and amp?). If he got a better solid-state pre-amp, then it, too, would sound less harsh. Rather then deciding that solid-state electronics is off the table, I recommend listening to as many highly regarded pre-amps as possible, and not give a hoot over whether or not it is tube based or solid-state based, and buy the one that sounds the best. And even if you get a tube pre-amp (or amp), you are hearing it with the stock tubes. Your ears might agree with that choice. And if not, you might not realize that a simple tube change could make a world of difference (for better or worse). This stuff is hard to nail down, even if you have a good stereo store to work with you. But please do not add "warmth" to your music. Please have your goal to be realism in the reproduction of your music. By the way, some of the best sounding amplifiers on the market are 100% tube based. They sound so good, but only in their power range, and will come in second place to a flagship solid-state amp, for very dynamic passages. But a great tube amp will sound glorious, when used with musical passages that are within its design limits (which is most music). You will not be able to shake the paintings on your walls, with a tube amp. But you will still get good volume, and it will be an amazing listening experience. So 100% tubes for an amp should not be dismissed. Have a listen before you decide one way or the other. Cheers!

[@fsb1284]

Just got a Schiit Freya+ with some matched GE 6SN7. PS Audio Stellar Phono and Denafrips Pontus R2R ladder hooked up via balanced XLR never sounded so good! Of course, I kept the main amp solid-state (because I listened to Paul) using (for now) the Mundorf and ELNA Silmic-recapped Class AB section of my harman HK3490. Might eventually replace with a S300 or M700 pair...but for now, my mind is being blown everyday by this setup. Especially noticeable with piano and brass on well-recorded jazz sessions!

[@PanAmStyle]

Not that I haven’t said this before (and tune out if you’re tired of it) but the DECware Zen Amp (SE84UFO) is all tube and sounds great. Yes, it’s ONLY 2.3 watts, so speakers and room are a bit proscribed. But DAMN it sounds great. For a tube power amplifier, I’m persuaded that it’s the output transformers that are critical ... all along with a simple circuit, of course.

[@bikemike1118]

I do confirm! My neutral and highly dynamic sounding tube preamp together with my SS mono blocks blew away my previous SS high quality preamp ...just like that

[@donny303]

Which preamp are you using please?

[@maverickongkoksiong9099]

I faced problem when I mixed and match a tube preamp fr china product with a china monoblk as the system trigger protection after I on the system for a while. Why? DC offset that I was told. I am confused.

[@gage4375]

Tubes give life and character to an amplifier

[@robertporter2447]

My problem with tubes in power amp while they sound great is that they need replacing often and are not cheap. In pre amp tubes last along time and not as pricey. A good set of matched KT88s are 3 to $400+ and only last 6 or so months. So I put tube phono pre and it's gold! Good advice go with Pre amp! Z.K.

[@stimpy1226]

There are some amplifiers that have a guarantee of five or more years on a full set of tubes now. Specifically Carver but I know there are others. Cara doesn’t lie about his claims so that keeps tubes in the running for me.

[@shodan6401]

For incredible value, I recommend people have a look at the VTA / Tubes4HiFi SP14 Pre (6SN7 based). Incredible reviews.

[@humanitech]

If you want to try and be surprised by a very cheap tube pre amp option - with a few cheap simple mods. Just buy an FX audio tube 03 pre amp, then replace the stock Chinese tubes with Russian voskhod 6j38p (best) or voskhod 6j1p-ev (great) . Note they don't have to be matched pairs...so are cheaper to buy a few sets in bulk rather than a pair. Secondly, open the unit and take (pullout) out the two opamps completely (which are dip8 so they just pull out). The opamps are used to control the tone and volume functions - but add gain and also effect the sound). Once done you end up with a really good tube buffer all in for about $50. Please Note this only works if you have an alternative volume control on your dac or streamer or source etc..but adds great soundstage and more warmth and dimensionality..but other tubes like GE, Millard's work too and add more tube warmth to taste..but that's the fun of tube rolling. I was sceptical at first but tried a friend's and it sounds fab, when linked to my class D power amp, streaming digital playback based system. But it is a cheap tiny alternativr., but a well made little Chinese unit. Naturally it's not for everyone. But a great little thing for those interested or on a budget. Also people also claim to get better results with linear PSUs but a well made power brick wall socket is better than the cheap stock unit. Disclaimer. Please note playing with electrics is potentially dangerous so you would be doing this at your own risk but works really well for me.

[@Ninja_S1000RR-R]

I was wondering the same thing

[@juanmillaruelo7647]

Tubes in the preamp stage provide warm tone without generating vast amounts of heat. Then, modern solid state power amps will faithfully, accurately reproduce this tube sound at very high power levels and incredibly low noise floor and distortion without any of the downsides ( massive weight, heat, transformers, etc). You have to be a bit of a "steam punk" to love tube power amps.

[@67Pepper]

"You have to be a bit of a "steam punk" to love tube power amps." Very snobby thing to say.

[@xjimmy225x]

I wish you made a vacuum tube phono preamp

[@egbertgroot2737]

Would using more tubes in the audio signal path contribute to more typical warmth?

[@poyocru]

I was against Chinese cheap tube preamps, bought one for test and swapped tubes for rca and it sounds amazing can't believe it

[@liongate9924]

You could leave the subtitle pt or ptbr enabled when uploud the video to youtube thankful

[@PabloMessier]

Tubes add even order harmonics to the signal, and they can render bass frequencies more audible, but the sound will change over time depending on the temperature of the tubes.

[@stimpy1226]

Has anyone ever given any thought to the possibility that live instruments may generate a second harmonic distortion. Perhaps that’s why everyone keeps talking about second harmonic distortion adding warmth or sounding right. I think it’s possible

[@sweetandsour6521]

Will the tubes if used as a pre amp not go bad as fast or will it go bolts ways

[@michaeljohnbrown6367]

So have valve preamp separate and in the power amp have valve preamp stage in lst stage of the transistor power power yes

[@alanrogs3990]

What about a tube buffer between the source and the integrated?

[@elsaarmstrong-zp6ng]

Many people including myself believe it’s the even harmonics that tubes or valves produce, some call it soft clipping! Many guitarists prefer the valve amps for the same reason! That is why companies like Fender, Gibson, Marshal etc have been so successful over the years! . I have been a musician all my life and can pick out a valve amp in blind testing! If you look at signals you can pick out the tiny harmonics superimposed on the scope waveforms! You will hear the octave, 5th, quite strong-others like 3rd etc much weaker! The mathematics involved here are way beyond me (Fourier anyalises Taylor series etc) Fraser armstrong. P.s. You are quite right - a solid state power amp with wide frequency, low distortion, usually FET’s throughout fed by a tube/valve pre-amp will give fantastic results and save you money as matched 6L6/KT88 etc. Valve/Tube’s cost a fortune nowadays! Thank you for interesting video!

[@jmp622]

Demonstration available?

[@user-el2zj3pw5r]

Hi, need help I am using yamaha a-s201 amp. It played very well with monitor audio and b&w speakers (both 8ohm) I tried yamaha nsf51 (6ohm) and where with 8ohm speakers at 50db was fairly loud, with nsf51 at same volume setting(50db) is very quiet. At maximum loudness far from what i had with monitor audio/b&w speakers. On the back of A-s201 states 8ohm minimum. Ok I understand maybe they didn’t match well, even tho i was advised 6ohm speakers will play even louder. Now i got wharfedale 11.3 (4-8ohm). So a-s201 should have no problem right, as the speaker is fully ok to be matched with 8ohm amp. But unfortunately exactly same problem with loudness as when it was with nsf51 speakers. What is happening here? Many thanks!

[@kululv]

hello and thank you for your explanation. in a way it explained to me why a tube preamp. but then at the same fine got confused me. you praise your own amps where you point out, that the tube are on the input side, which implies that you habe a solid state power amps. which makes it a hybrid. a hybrid power amps is the logic solution. but with a hybrid power amp, why would you still want or need a tube preamp? thank you

[@jonsingle1614]

Since my offer of 500$ for those sweet infinity speakers in the listening room....will be accepted soon...I want to use the best amp and pre amp for them 😀

[@Oystein87]

It's not really funny anymore.. But still I laugh of this 500$ bid of yours😅🙈 But I bid $1000 so...😅

[@jonsingle1614]

@@Oystein87 no sniping my bid !

[@Oystein87]

@@jonsingle1614 😅😅

[@jonsingle1614]

@@Oystein87 ok....raising my offer ....505$

[@jonsingle1614]

@oh ok your offer voided....you dont have any old carver audio items 😉

[@laurentzduba1298]

To my ears, those small-ish standmount loudspeakers tend to sound better in an all-tube pre and power amp set-up.

[@robh9079]

Croft is a rather British company that uses input valves and mosfets, though at a (relatively) bargain price. Valve pre's; I think in some circs you have to watch your power-up sequence (source up) - someone may be able to illuminate on this. (Should always be source up anyway.)

[@jeremyhughes6485]

It is simple. Tubes add even harmonic distortion. This makes hi-hat and other non-harmonic instruments more audible in the mix. Our ears/brain will infer a fundamental simply from the harmonics. Of course harmonic instruments like guitar become richer harmonically but this isn’t as important .

[@PetraKann]

In guitar amplifiers that use vacuum tube technology, the “colouration” of the weak signal coming from the guitar pick ups and the distinct characteristics associated with a particular amplifier reside in the Pre-Amp stage of the amplification pathway. So if you wish to incorporate the “warm” sound characteristics associated with vacuum tube amplifiers into your hifi system, changing the pre-amp stage is critical and a bare minimum modification. The power amplifier stage takes the voltage boosted signal from the preamp and boosts the current. That is it increases the power so that the speakers can be driven effectively. On a guitar amp the power amp stage imparts minimal coloration to the final guitar sound. In guitar Amps the pre Amp stage is King

[@wilcalint]

You have to consider the speaker/amp of a Guitar setup as part of the musical instrument.

[@PetraKann]

@@wilcalint no doubt the speaker plays a role. In signal amplification pathway the pre amp stage imparts the bulk of the sound colouration and unique sonic characteristics to the weak signal coming from the guitar pick ups (I am assuming that the speakers are of half descent quality and suitable for the frequency range typical of electric guitars)

[@wilcalint]

@@PetraKann The first electric guitars ( Les Paul and Leo Fender ) they crafted that sound out of inferior, if not horrible, electronics and speaker drivers. It's quite a story. From junk comes beautiful music.

[@PetraKann]

@@wilcalint Indeed.....one person's junk is another person's treasure. Incidentally, the first electric guitar using the first magnetic pick up was invented in 1931: The "Frying Pan" Lap Steel guitar, manufactured by Rickenbacker. This guitar was made from Aluminium. The first wooden body electric guitars emerged after WW2. Solid body electric guitars became more popular in the 1950s, as amplifier technology improved and musicians didnt want the feedback hollow body guitars were giving. Ironically "feedback" became a sonic tool used by electric guitarists later on. Frying Pans can still fetch $4,000 or more even though there are several hundred of the 1931 model still floating around the world today.

[@wilcalint]

@@PetraKann Would you agree that #1 The Electric guitar is a musical instrument not a gadget, #2 It's an American invention.

[@pushslice]

Answer: YES

[@jimmycake7143]

Can you tell me the Brand/model of the bench your leaning on? thanks KC2-AGT

[@joelowens5211]

I have 2 JC plus 1 mono block amps 1 for each speaker. Prima Luna top model tube pre-amp. Have Prima Luna tube Dac. My local audio company came out yesterday to measure the room with software and by measuring listening to optimize themselves. I had them bring out the DCS Bartok Dac to test. It was a MASSIVE difference! The Prima Luna tube pre-amp I love. The tube Dac not so much. The instruments sound good but the midrange was grainy at times and not as smooth. The Bartok gave a clarity and depth to the whole presentation that simply was not there before. The Bartok is not cheap but a system at that level you expect to pay those prices. I like Bartok you can download upgrades to the software when they become available. Also Bartok has adjustable input whereas the Prima Luna you turn on and it's full out from the beginning. An AWESOME local home audio company will listen to your budget and the make recommendations on that. My system is dedicated to to listening to music only with it's own room versus home theater. I have Qobuz now but they told me Tidal has a bigger library and more high quality files so might switch to that.

[@stimpy1226]

You gave a great answer with a lot of detail. You also have great equipment

[@joelowens5211]

@@stimpy1226 Thanks. Decades ago I had a different system Lexicon processor, Threshold Class A amp, Fet 9e pre-amp, Klipsch flagship corner horn speakers, horn flagship center speaker, Mcintosh amp drove that. Surround speakers were Definitive audio towers with M & K dual 12 subwoofer. I liked Klipsch. Excellent on rock but I felt bright for some other types of music. They were crazy loud. In my 20's then in age so liked it louder. Neighbor came over from next door and said they were trying to eat dinner and the plates were moving on the table could I turn it down some for awhile...lol Put audio on the side for awhile and bought a newer system last year. Sometimes the really rich guys buy brand new stuff every 6 months from the audio shops and trade in. You can get stuff nothing wrong with it that still has the warranty for a fraction of the price. What kind of system do you have?

[@stimpy1226]

@@joelowens5211 seems like you had a very impressive history even with your off time with audio gear. The only thing that I could find in my history that we had in common was a threshold 4000 amp. I sold it for half $1000 and lately one sold for more than $4500. I just don’t have the money to keep my equipment and become a collector. But right now I’ve got a front end of PS Audio DSD DAC/Streamer with a ROON NUCLEUS and a PS audio P 12 power conditioner ,PASS phono and line stage preamp‘s, Wadia CD player and a SOTA sapphire turntable with a Graham 2.2 arm and a Lyra Lydian cartridge. Oh, Audio Research VT100 Mk III Amp.Headphones are Quad Planar into a Pass headphone amplifier.

[@joelowens5211]

@@stimpy1226 That's nice equipment. I remember my first real home system was going to the listening room at Circuit City. Bought a Kenwood receiver and Cerwin Vega 15's. Those things were absolute monsters for bass. I was a teen so loved the bass at the time. Once you get the love for audio it's a lifetime thing. My speakers now are Monitor Audio Platinum 500 mk 2's. Got em for a heck of deal. Brand new I think 33k or so for the pair. They were new floor model demo's at the store. The size of them is so big lot's of the wives would not let the husbands put in the house. I had a dedicated room though so didn't matter. Came with warranty. Bought for around 14k. I found this guy in Pennsylvania that makes wood stands and racks custom design and types of wood for great price. I paid about 600 for 2 mono block wood amp stands. These are about 5 inches thick.

[@stimpy1226]

@@joelowens5211 Oh you are much worse than I am! You really are out beating the bushes so find genuine classic equipment. My hats off to you

[@matthewhilty4209]

The P6 has a built in DAC you may need a DAC and a Tube preamp. So figure that into the cost.

[@Vazhaspa]

Let's see. I tested IFi Pro iDSD DAC hat can be also used as a preamp connected to a powerful amplifier (Parasound Halo A21). The DAC can provide both Solid State and Tube option. The sound was good enough, yet nobody could hear much difference whenever I switched between Solid State and Tube option of the DAC. Is it then just psychological or a synergic phenomenon?

[@dorkvader5332]

Maso some people are just deaf to changes.Some convince themselves they can`t hear a difference.

[@yannick930]

In my opinion cables and capacitors can play a big role in adding wormth in a preamp as much as the tube itself. Some tubes are cold like the sovtek and électro harmonix and some are worm like gold Lion or shuguang or psvane. The only thing that's different with tubes that I can think of is the soundstage and the "holographic" part. Otherwise I

[@stimpy1226]

Telefunken gold diamonds are amazing tubes.

[@Fluterra]

It’s too broad a question - how the amp is designed and what components are used makes all the difference. It’s like asking “4 cylinder car or 6 cylinder”? There are amazing 4 cylinder engines that outperform 6 cylinder in every way (and vice-versa).

[@stimpy1226]

I think you gave a very correct answer. I think it’s really tough to stand up to Audio research products which are mostly tube.

[@Blueberrythegreat]

A possibility of an answer to the question of why does a tube sound better might be that electricity moves more freely in air

[@VintageGearMan]

Why I just bought a hybrid Nobsound AV 525. Sure Chinese made but, I cannot a $4,500 dollar McIntosh tube amp. Hopefully it will be good enough.

[@scarabeo500gt]

My Bob Carver Tube Cherry 180's sound better then about any ss amp I have ever heard - Never giving them up!!!

[@shodan6401]

@scarabeo500gt Yes, they are probably worth their weight in gold, and then some! Ever hear of tube envy?

[@crossocean5663]

I am privileged to be the first to view this. Own a tube integrated. Love it. Of course everybody to it’s own.

[@HansDelbruck53]

How many humans are "its"?

[@jimmychua6529]

Tube preamplifier connect to solid state equalizer and power amplifier it can be.

[@DCfocal]

I am the opposite. SS pre and tube monoblocks. Primaluna just colours that hard digital edge off. Definitely not syrupy.

[@1jhnpennington]

I agree. I am using a Bluesound Node 2i as the preamp through an external DAC into a PrimaLuna power amp using KT88 valves. Best combo I have heard to date, and I've heard a lot!

[@HailKingCeezer]

I wonder if for digital based listeners, SS amp and preamp, going with a TUBE DAC would be preferable to a tube preamp with solid state dac and amp?

[@fsb1284]

Have you heard an R2R “ladder” DAC? I just got a Denafrips Pontus and hooked up via balanced XLR to Schiit Freya+ I am blown away at its ability to warm up the most “clinical” sounding digital recordings I have. I actually like CDs again! It makes my PS Stellar Phono jealous every time I turn it on...

[@HailKingCeezer]

@@fsb1284 i do have a Denafrips Ares II :) i love it and you're spot on, and im sure the Pontus performs even better but I cant help but wonder about a tube pre amp or what a really good tube dac could do.

[@fsb1284]

@@HailKingCeezer if you have any other sources, the preamp would allow you to run those thru the tubes as well. Most importantly, unless you are balanced XLR into your current amp, a balanced preamp will also be an improvement. Cannot believe the difference the Pontus and PS Stellar Phono hooked in via XLR makes!!!

[@HailKingCeezer]

@@fsb1284 the main reason I purchased the Denafrips Ares II was b/c of the rave reviews about the analog sound. Most important for me since I only play music from my desktop computer. The reviews were right. Ive listened to more full albums with this dac than any other before. Ive got it hooked up balanced to my McIntosh MX120 preamp. Its a multichannel amp, but it and the mx119 focused on 2ch with surround as a bonus instead of the other way around you usually see on multi channel amps. I could always add a separate stereo tube preamp with home theater bypass to the mx120

[@flaviograf6722]

Wouldn't it be even better to have a tube DAC and then have the preamp and power amp both solid?

[@hvskyline1368]

Im planning on getting 2 sets of amplifiers i wanna get some pass labs monos solid states and prima luna evo 300 tube amps and a preamp with 3 XLR inputs and 2 XLR outputs what are your thoughts on that? Maybe getting a hybrid preamp similar to the freya so I can maybe sweeten the pass labs monos here and there for a different sound I guess im not sure hahah

[@stimpy1226]

Sounds like a powerful combination. Good luck

[@hvskyline1368]

@@stimpy1226 im a long way from it hahahaha but thank you so much eventually ill get it haha

[@stimpy1226]

@@hvskyline1368 it’s great to dream because dedicated audiophiles beg borrow and steal like I did for 50+ years.

[@hvskyline1368]

@@stimpy1226 hahaha eventually I will get it

[@stimpy1226]

@@hvskyline1368 Cody, I don’t know if I will ever get it! There are so many ways to put together a musical sounding audio system now it’s almost like a chess game where are you playing both sides of the board. I believe the outcome is always a draw when it comes to deciding what makes a good audio system.

[@stephens2r338]

Small tubes improve the sound musicality but they soon become the limiting factor. Replacing them with NOS can help but in the end there are no high end tube preamps for a reason. You can get high end power amps using tubes like the KT150 that can much better than most solid state equipment but alas produce less power so you reduce your speaker options.

[@matthewsallman1700]

No high end tube preamps??? Have you ever heard of Audio Research?

[@stephens2r338]

@@matthewsallman1700 Thanks for your post. Congratulations, in the world of high end pre amps you found one company who makes one high end pre amp, their REF 6 se. It still doesn't change the fact that in a high end pre amp the tubes are still its limiting factor. I wonder how it compares to solid state options at the same price point? I have heard their reference 750 amp that sounded wonderful. They dont make good tubes anymore . The skills have been forgotten and chemicals and production methods are no longer allowed. Replacing modern tubes with NOS ones from the 50s will improve the overall performance. However removing them in my experience even more.

[@matthewsallman1700]

@@stephens2r338 You are more than welcome to your opinion. I will continue to enjoy my REF 5 SE as will my friend who bought my old LS27. He tried the LS27 between his DirectStream DAC and m1200s and found the same result as Paul. Greatly improved sound. Even with those horrible modern tubes!

[@stephens2r338]

@@matthewsallman1700 Its all a mater of personal preferances and tastes. Hifi would be boring if we all liked the same. Did you or you friend try swapping to NOS tubes. If not l think that you would be pleasantly surprised.

[@matthewsallman1700]

@@stephens2r338 I used NOS tubes when I used products that had 12AU7s. However all modern Audio Research products use Russian built 6H30 tubes which work very well and are not really available NOS in large quantities. If you liked the Reference 750 amp, you were listening to 6H30s in the input circuits - and the KT150 are Russian built too.

[@Reticuli]

Why does a zero ohm headphone amp acting as a preamp to an electrostatic headphone amp have such a big effect on tonality and transient character?

[@johnlebeau5471]

I would like to opine, but I haven't owned a solid state preamp since 1983.

[@james6039]

IMO - tubes only on the input stage of a Power Amp would still be a Solid State Amp.

[@ramonchiritoiu6131]

My guess is tube sound better because: 1. Electrons move truly free in vacuum. Electrons in semiconductor have some "viscosity" due to recombination process. 2. Internal geometry combined with acoustic properties of glass enriche the complex sound curve. And talking about glass, you should try to put horizontally stacked champagne bottles (bottom first) behind mid or mid-hi speaker and just listen :-)

[@shodan6401]

The reason is simple: tubes reintroduce the same natural even-order harmonic distortion that solid state removes. A trumpet or violin plays not only the fundamental (the note the musician is playing), it also creates harmonics (even-order harmonics to be specific), and they are low order harmonics, meaning that they are relatively close to the fundamental. So our ears EXPECT to hear those harmonics in the music. Solid state equipment, if they produce any harmonics at all, they are odd-ordered, which sounds horrible. So solid state works hard to remove ANY harmonic distortion. Modern solid state is successful at removing any and all distortion, including the distortion that occurs naturally in music and that our ears expect to hear. Even a plumber banging a pipe with a hammer produces these even-order harmonics. They are part of our natural world. So when tubes reintroduce these naturally occurring harmonics, people often remark that it sounds more "natural". And that is correct, we once again hear the harmonics that our ears have evolved to expect. I bet B.K. had a lot to do with overcoming your stubborn aversion to tubes in your audio equipment. And you should thank him for that, because now your company offers one of the most highly regarded amps currently available.

[@epanorama]

"The reason is simple: tubes reintroduce the same natural even-order harmonic distortion that solid state removes." But that's not right. It is true that tube amplifiers have much more distortion than solid-state amplifiers, but most of it is second-order, which is perceived quite musical and pleasing to many ears when added at reasonable amounts. The solid state does not remove even-order harmonic distortion. Solid state does not remove any harmonics. A well built solid state amplifier tries to amplify the signal as closely as original format as it can, without intentionally adding or substracting any harmonic distortion. It is true that solid state equipment, if they produce any harmonics at any considerable amounts all, they are often mostly odd-ordered, which sounds horrible compared to even-order harmonic distortion if there is considerable amount of added distortion. "So our ears EXPECT to hear those harmonics in the music." It is true that our ears often expect to hear those even-order harmonics in the music. A good quality music recording should include all the needed harmonics you need to hard, so that it sounds good when faithfully played back with an amplifier that does not add or take out any of the harmonics. Musicians and studio technicians use tube (and other technologies) based instrument amplifiers, preamplifiers, sound processing equipment etc.. to produce a natural sounding recording. There should not be any need to artificially add some "artificial" harmonics on the playback of the sound if the recording was well done originally. If you like to have added harmonics, then either the original recording had something wrong to begin with or you just prefer to hear sound with some "effects" added to it compared to original sound. "So when tubes reintroduce these naturally occurring harmonics, people often remark that it sounds more "natural"." I see that tubes don't reintroduce these naturally occurring harmonics like they happened in real life when recording was made, but tubes add some amount of artificial harmonics that quite much resemble these naturally occurring harmonics that can make a sound going through them better or worse depending on the tube amplifier design, signal level, how the original recording sounded and what are the listener preferences what he/she considers preferred sound.

[@richsherman3673]

I have a different opinion, and it is dependent. Totally agree that a Tube Preamp and a Solid State amp are a great combination. But, and here is my slant. I have lived with both combinations for a bit over 25 years. Caveat.... the Tube Preamp in my experience has to be of very high quality. If money is no object, a decent entry level, low noise, tube preamp will set you back at least $2500 used, or $3800+ new. The reason I say this is that economical tube preamps have a higher noise floor, as the signals are more delicate and prone to all sorts of bad stuff from the source to the outputs. So for music lovers on a very tight budget, I suggest a good Solid State Preamp and a decent Tube Power amp, monoblocks better. Solid state Preamps will at a very low price point deliver lower noise and better resolution for budget minded music lovers. The smaller the signals the more delicate they are. And heck, most all sources are Solid State anyhow, making the “adding warmth” narrative better on the higher performance Tube Preamps. So my take depends on budget and spend, not so much on one size fits all. The sharp clean Solid State preamp will be more than warmed up by any decent Tube amp. Thanks!!

[@stimpy1226]

This is probably why the audible illusions modulus preamps have risen dramatically in price. Simple design by several great engineers and an incredible sound. Sorry I sold mine in favor of an FET preamp which sounds great but not as good as the audible illusions.

[@richsherman3673]

@@stimpy1226 Nice comment, in 2004 I borrowed an Audible Illusions Preamp. The standing current (bias) through the 6922 tubes was on the "highish" end, so it would wear out 6922 tubes much faster, but what a glorious bloom indeed, magic on a budget. The same went for the Dynaco PAS-4, that one I did own for 3+ years and was a "6922 tube-gobbler", not so much the 12AX7 Phono Tubes, but akin to the Audible Illusions in tube replacement, every 6 months to a Year, new tubes. These tube Preamps in particular using fresh "low noise" tubes offered that marvelous tube glory, then 1 year later the sound would lose most of the magic and just go flat, and the Tweeterss would have a bit of Tube Hash Noise. There are so many venerable classic preamps that also suffer from "inter-channel bleed-over", think McIntosh C20 or the ubiquitous Dynaco PAS3, different leagues, same inter-channel issues, see the reviews from Steve Guttenberg on this subject. All of this I say is from my first hand experience. Over the years, it became obvious that budget Tube Preamps sound super nice, until you listen to the same source on a very, very clean system (Tube or Solid State) and hear into the mix, instead or around the mix. Of course this is a subjective hobby so these are my ears, my systems and my experience, take this with a grain of salt. But no cost barred, Mid to High End Tube Preamps are the bomb. But on a budget, I would recommend Tube "Newbies" to start with a good 1980's Solid State Preamp (ex. Klyne, Parasound, Adcom, etc...) and a restored or Kit Push-Pull Amp like an upgraded ST70, ST-35, Eico HF87 or Knight KT66 any of the classics. BTW lots of what a Tube Preamp do well is related to the quality of the Power Supply. I made some direct tests on my DIY Aikido Preamp. On the separate power supply chassis, I installed a 3P3T switch using two OC2 Regulators in Series on the output of the Power Supply using (2) different series voltage dropping resistors to compensate for the power supply loading between position 1 and position 2. I could flip this switch (lowering the volume of course) to go from "Regulated +300V" to "un-regulated +290/+310". In the "un-regulated" mode, the 6SN7 Aikido Tube Preamp sounded like what we all have grown used to; Lush, Musical, Amazing. Then, flip the switch and Regulate the B+, the sound totally changed from loose to tight, from wide to deep, the sonic character transformed and became more like a Solid State sound. so as the Dead would say "Its been a long strange trip with Tubes". This is a wonderful hobby. Keeps me building and testing..... Paul is amazing, love his products, there is a "Sprout" in my future indeed as I am down sizing and selling my 20 year collection of Classis and DIY equipment. Thank for allowing me this forum to share my experinces.

[@stimpy1226]

@@richsherman3673 Thanks for your detailed reply Rich. I owned the Modulus 2 for close to 20 years until the stepped volume controls gave up the ghost. I purchased a Modulus 3B as a replacement that is not a tube burner because of a design change in the input stage. Being an Audiophile I decided to build a PASS DIY Amp Camp amp and PASS DIY KORG preamp which sounded wonderful. I sent both to my son who is loving the combination as well. Then the bug bit and I was able to purchase "Like New" PASS Phono and Linestage pre amps to replace my Modulus and sold the Modulus at a year old. I should never have done this as although I love the improvements in fine detail and incredible dynamics, the bloom from the Modulus into My Audio Research VT100 Mk III amp. I do like tubes. Should have not sold the Modulus so soon as I might have decided to return the PASS equipment (still not sure). I do have direct contact with Nelson since my purchases (also purchased a PASS Headphone amp which is spectacular into my Quad Planar Headphones) the pre's were finally breaking in so the system sounds just wonderful now but still lacking certain aspects of the sound that I love. Didn't David Haffler design the Dyna ST-70 and other Dynaco electronics? He was another pioneer. The bottom line is that I've gone beyond the spending limit for a system and here is where it stops. BTW...driving Maggie 3.6 R's and a Carver Sunfire Sub. Anyway, not even close to my three sources, Analog, CD and DAC STREAMER. This is an abbreviated email as I could on but I'm in the process of relocating and I will sign off. Best to you.....Neil

[@richsherman3673]

@@stimpy1226 Hey Neil. I loved the Audible Illusions! What a sound stage, it made voices sooo well, instrumetation separation, the whole enchilada. At Dynaco there were a few, David Hafler and Ed Laurent. I built a pair of MK3 Monoblocks with many improvements, they sound amazing. I have a Njoe Tjoeb CD player I purchased in 2003 from Kevin Deal. The up-samplers both failed so I replaced the OpAmp IC's with the best. I recently changed the Laser/Drive Mechanism as the old one gave out after 16 years, pretty darn good run eh? The 6922's on the Njoe Tjoeb really make it analog-like. The Burr-Brown OpAmps were a huge upgrade to the stock chips. I have Zu Druid MK4 and all else is just a myriad of equipment and sources. In 2015 I bought a pair of Focal 706V in Salem VA. They are cool speakers for small rooms, lots of nice detail on a beer budget. Then I have a pair of 16 Ohm Pilot PSV2 that I upgraded the caps and resistors, another Alnico silent killer. I have a video on KZbin of these PSV-2's connected to my Olson Stereo 6F6 Push Pull no feedback amp, that's correct, Tube Push Pull no feedback. Schematic was from 1946-47. Now this is a cool design, every component was optimized by Olson himself, and Audio and Sound Pioneer. But as there is no feedback, if you crank up the volume too much.... ayyyy distortion. But at reaonable levels, the music is palpable. The 6F6 is the best kept secret on Triode Strapped pentodes. To close this hobby is easier when we stand on the shoulders of these giants.... and Paul McGowan's shoulders give just the right view of Audio Valhalla from my perspective. I plan to visit them on my next foray to Rocky Mountain Audio Fest,

[@stimpy1226]

That’s why I really enjoy the past preamp’s with the audio research power ramp. But as I said before that missing air around the instruments and the harmonic structure of these instruments seems a whole lot better with the tube preamp and tube amp to me.

[@granttaylor3697]

I take it you are taking about a driver stage (Paul) not the preamp, the stage after line input and before the power amplifier? As I would never design a preamp with a vacuum tube for microphone or tape head input amp, due to the higher noise figure that comes vacuum tubes. In fact a good part of the noise that come off magnetic tape is not tape noise, but preamp noise as you are down as low 1uV of audio to work with. So I guess you are taking about mid stage using a vacuum tube where it would not be adding in any noise at that point.

[@vonclod123]

Tube pre always

[@QoraxAudio]

Vacuum tubes in this context are just a type of fixed tone control. Might as well use an EQ or DSP instead to achieve the same but with more flexibility.

[@makarov138]

The issue is, what sounds good and pleasing to the human ear? A pure 500 hz tone does not sound good. But the same tone with a much smaller 2nd harmonic 1000 hz tone added to it does! So build an amp that sounds good to the human ear, and not necessarily a linear amp! Tubes do that! It is that simple. And in the preamp is where it works the best.

[@JamesWang007]

Anyone else think it's ironic that S.S. technology is so accurate & clean that people, including myself, are reverting back to vinyl and tubes for a little "dirt'?

[@Hammersmash3dFace]

that's an interesting point. now that the music recordings are digital, all the noise also disappears. due to the mostly also digital playback, hardly anything is added. that was also my problem as i tried to operate my old headphones with new technology the same way as with my over 20 year old amplifier. unsuccessfully by the way.

[@JamesWang007]

@@Hammersmash3dFace I've always wondered if kids feel the same way, i.e. listening to Skillrex isn't too trebly for them, or if we are just conditioned or can be unconditioned.

[@JamesWang007]

@Dorian Gray Agreed, but how much Distortion pattern do you really think we pick up if it's .005 THD?

[@Hammersmash3dFace]

@@JamesWang007 mh there has not only in recording but in the entire audio processing the last 20 years very much done. show today many who produce directly at home without studio. but I doubt that the audiophiles became noticeably more, there are even enough musicians who do not care. so even if today much lossy/stream is heard, the quality has become better overall. so the leap today to the audiophile is actually as small as never. therefore also the unbroken popularity of vinyl.

[@nasalimbu3078]

Transmitter Receiver transmitter

[@voxpathfinder15r]

This channel is for high fidelity stereo systems? I would think you wouldn’t care if your stereo, especially the power section was solid state. Guitar amplifiers are like an instrument with distortion being part of the sound.

[@hxhdfjifzirstc894]

I say use whatever you got and throw your extra money into room treatment and speaker placement. At some point you're really quibbling over which color of paint sounds the best.

[@googoo-gjoob]

oh, dear Lord, no!

[@barryhall7]

The tube must be acting as a filter

[@TheMirolab]

Filtering what exactly?

[@barryhall7]

@@TheMirolab It could be limiting bandwidth and or channel separation. Also might be adding a little 2nd harmonic which does sound quite nice subjectively

[@mkfmkf55]

Too bad it appears you have to spend a minimum of $6,000 to get any PS product with tubes.

[@ThinkingBetter]

Neither tube amplifier or preamplifier makes sense to me anymore. The time has changed. FLAC streaming -> DSP -> DAC -> power amp -> Speakers is what I prefer in any new system.

[@graxjpg]

Yeah man, that’s definitely the way to go if you’re interested in realistic results. I love the “honey coated” way analog sounds with my old 70s records, but I’m trying to figure out how those records were produced so clarity is important!

[@ThinkingBetter]

@@graxjpg Yes, some music just sounds better on vinyl and that's especially true with older music from the 70s. I have lots of vinyl records from the 70s especially.