Vanilla Smash 4 Greninja: Overpowered or Overrated?

[@zeckemyro7031]

the extra Dedede in S Tier at 1:14 is supposed to be Luigi. He's missing from the rest of the tier list and WAS thought of as top 3 early on.

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

I did notice Luigi was missing from that list and that does make sense (although top 3 is still a bit too enthusiastic for him, although not as much as DDD). Then again, he was bottom tier on that first tier list so I wasn’t sure whether he was meant to be in the A tier or the B- tier on the second tier list. Both of those tier lists were made around the same time.

[@zeckemyro7031]

@@bigbangbot-SuperSqank once people found out about down throw Luigi shot up in tier lists

[@drluigi8563]

Great video hope it blows up

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

Thank you. That would be wonderful but it does seem like this video’s time in the spotlight is over. The video could always pick up again in the future but for now, I guess this video is staying in the shadows.

[@wackywakko6694]

Vanilla 3ds Greninja is definitely interesting

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

Indeed.

[@billystorm5347]

this is an amazing hidden gem keep up the great work

[@epicness877]

I thought half the reason "better nerf greninja" became a meme was because he was never crazy enough to need nerfs to begin with

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

True but that has managed to get lost in translation over the years.

[@Pokehero]

Love these vids. Makes me want to watch a 3DS tourney, 1.0 Sm4sh was best

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

ty Poke. It’s just a shame that S4 Vanilla didn’t really live on beyond those first two months, where the game was new and everyone was still learning the game.

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

Here it is. My longest Smash video yet. I originally wrote the script for this video a few months ago but I put off making the video due to how long it would be. But after receiving some inspiration, I decided to come back and finally make this video. I hope this video turned out ok. I know there are imperfections (particularly with the audio) but with the sheer length of the video, it was definitely harder to make sure everything was completely perfect. There were even things I ended up not mentioning as they were overall not too relevant or worth talking about (like Greninja's footstool combos). If you enjoyed this video, feel free to comment, like, subscribe and share. I highly appreciate all engagement these videos get. This video is a part of an ongoing series I have on my channel and if you are interested in seeing my other videos in this series, here is the link to the playlist: kzbin.info/aero/PL29Zh-SMStvIx5EhvljRUTzXRYnCcYx2l

[@hadesKIU]

It's less "better nerf Greninja" and more "make Greninja boring." Like, yeah, the smash attacks out of shuriken, the shadow sneak endlag cancels, and the shadow sneak out of dash weren't always very practical, but they're SO COOL! A "projectile" to smash attack combo and a character that teleports all over the place (range and speed be damned)? YES PLEASE! This was definitely a good video, not just comparing versions of Greninja, but also preserving and showcasing tech he used to be able to do.

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

Thanks. You are right. Those perks Greninja had may not have been particularly powerful but they were definitely cool/neat.

[@MrGameguyC]

27:31 Got me pondering what an optimized Vanilla 3DS meta would have been and it asked some fun questions: -Is any controller of your choice available? -Are BF, FD and maybe Yoshi Island Brawl our stages? -How the hell do we handle the Miis nowadays? -Customs? :p (That might be a fun video topic actually, and or other vanilla ones like Luigi, Sonic and Rosa) But yeah, I agree Greninja probably would have been around Top 15-20.

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

- Even in the 3DS days, I believe they had already gotten GameCube controllers working. I imagine it may have been possible for more controllers to become supported later on down the line (IDK the situation with using normal controllers on a 3DS in the modern day but you of course have emulation to use any controller these days too). - That sounds about right. There were/are more stages that were legal on 3DS but I'm not sure if they would have survived in a more serious meta. - The obvious thing with Miis would be to allow them to use any specials (which I believe modern Smash 4 tournaments do). Restricting Miis to use their default specials because "they can counterpick with different specials" was so stupid, that should have never been banned. Custom Mii sizes probably would have stayed banned and that is at least more understandable. - Customs would be in the same spot, as in they would be banned. Customs were very unbalanced in 4 and with meta developments, they would have become even worse. Vanilla also had jank like infinites with certain customs. Combined with the setup time to make custom characters and how awful they were to unlock, yeah, I don't think they would have ever made a comeback, Vanilla or final. I absolutely plan to make more Vanilla Smash 4 videos. They certainly take longer to research/make but I absolutely do have plans to make more. I have at least one big video planned for September (October at the latest).

[@omlett6482]

that vanilla greninja hurtbox is literally just Pichu but with huge ass limbs

[@MrGameguyC]

This was a fun video, nice work! Looking at two hypothetical alts universes: -One where Greninja was never changed but the rest of the game was (No LSI and higher Shieldstun), he might have been a little better. He sure would be Up-Smashing more, but people would have figured out his Shadow Sneak gimmicks (they were more MU checks) and he'd have worse OoS options and neutral tools. So nothing crazy better. -Another where Greninja only received buffs, he'd possibly be a top tier, but I don't think would have given final release Cloud and Bayo that much trouble, at least compared to the other top tiers. Greninja has some potential to be amazing, but one of the strong Smash characters of all time? Not really.

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

ty. I do feel though that even if he exclusively got buffed (as theorycraft), Greninja still probably wouldn’t be top tier. His weaknesses are just a bit too severe, not helped by his high skill floor/ceiling. Even in Ultimate where he pretty much got exclusively buffed, Greninja is still not a super meta relevant character. This is all just speculation at the end of the day though.

[@MrGameguyC]

@@bigbangbot-SuperSqank Good point. He is a notably different character in a few ways, so how the community chose to handle him in that context is up to interpretation.

[@Camo-xf7yc]

28:23 There was actually a time where people thought that Duck Hunt, Bowser Jr. Robin, and King Dedede were in the same tier as Rosalina & Luma, Zero Suit Samus, and Sheik. WHAT Trash smash moves on Bowser Jr.'s Clown Cannon in Smash 4 on the table for possibility? Or possibly Piercing Cannon since that move might be worse if you ask me

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

Early game tier lists go wild, not just for Smash but any fighting game in general. It will be interesting to see just how off current Street Fighter 6 tier lists are in a few years time. And as for Clown Cannon, it is a possibility.

[@wackywakko6694]

I think ik why people thought Dedede was top tier or high tier they think he would be as great like in brawl but instead hes just plain bad

[@kitsune6363]

​​@@wackywakko6694They thought Gordo was overpowered because they didn't know how to reflect it, also casuals online never get good so they complained to Nintendo and got him nerfed over and over again

[@MrGameguyC]

27:56 Replace 'being a new character' with 'being piloted by MKLeo, one of the best players in the world' and you have a very similar story with Ult Ike. People don't take loss aversion well.

[@BrockBreedingintheHoennRegion]

I heard mac got nerfed in early smash 4 too. Iirc they nerfed his recovery.

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

They did nerf Mac’s recovery early on which was very funny as it was already terrible. He did get a few buffs later on similar to Greninja but they weren’t enough to save him.

[@TheLobsterCopter5000]

Little Mac is a perfect example of why they should have waited until the Wii U version came out before making balance patches...

[@MrGameguyC]

25:12 What's the name of the song that plays during these segments?

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/m2SxhaSCrNWmldE

[@MrGameguyC]

@@bigbangbot-SuperSqank Thank you!

[@estebanruiz7130]

GIVE ME BACK THAT UP SMASH!

[@Brandonrios365]

I think they released the 3DS and Wii U versions too close to each other. I wish we got that original summer release for the 3DS version like it was originally intended.

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

Considering that the released 3DS version was already a buggy, janky, unbalanced game, I don’t think a summer release would have done the game any favours.

[@alanbrizan]

11:51 discord didn't exist unit 2015

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

Of course. It was mainly a cheeky joke/reference.

[@skeetermania3202]

Uhh, what the hell is an “option select?” That terminology makes no sense.

[@skeetermania3202]

Uhh, what the hell is an “option select?” That terminology makes no sense.

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

Admittedly, I did use the term in the wrong context. The way I used it was to say that you do one punish which beats multiple options.