The Problem With Min Min in Smash Bros. Ultimate

While the Fighter Pass 2 at large is notoriously disliked by the playerbase, Min Min stands out in particular for her incredibly polarizing playstyle, representing the worst parts of zoners in Smash, amplified to extremes. Today we'll be discussing the problems with Min Min in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, and why in my opinion, she doesn't belong in this game.
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#SSBU #MinMin #SuperSmashBrosUltimate

[@Psych0boost]

I think they should’ve carried over the arm damage mechanic from ARMS to make her more balanced

[@justcallmexen]

Actually, I think that sounds like a pretty good idea. Blocking her attacks could have them fall and retract like normal, but if the arms hit another attack, then they receive damage and eventually become unusable for a little while if they take enough of it, kinda like K. Rool's belly armor in a way. With both arms gone, she can only jab, up-smash, down-smash, up-air, or down-air. We could really add risk to breaking her dragon arm by eliminating her recovery move while it's down, or at least reducing it's range and speed, like she's tossing up a limp noodle.

[@Toast0nyx]

Think of it like rosalina's Luma. It breaks after clanking with a set number of damage then regenerates after a set amount of time.

[@citrusblast4372]

@@justcallmexentrying to clank with her attacks sounds kinda tough tho

[@quinkana1]

@@citrusblast4372 tbf a lot of swordie attacks should be able to do this. or just a fast character.

[@badenlily]

That would have worked out great, yeah!

[@The0-2DemonKing]

The change I would make that wouldn't cripple Min Min's pressure but also add agency to her opponent would so anytime you hit her arms while they're out, she takes the damage but won't take any knockback. That way she isn't an F-Tier but as soon as you do get in, she goes flying.

[@ezramoore9472]

That's actually a really fair way to balance her I like it

[@fruitloop420]

personally, at the very least i'd ad a small stun/end lag to give a small opening for a rushdown. Other people have also suggested a durability mechanic to her arms, where the arms can get progressively damaged and will break after a certain amount of hits taken. This would also make cycling through different arms important for min min mains, aswell as damage management. this would make the experience more engaging in a way that doesnt break the character playstyle entirely.

[@loptr9581]

“You can’t counter Min Min’s arms” *Laughs in witch time*

[@DivineDa_OG]

LMAO

[@Matanumi]

The bayo match up still sucks

[@ProjectStarLIGHTS]

Get grabbed.

[@BeartoeConCarne]

@@Matanumiit is bad but it feels even

[@maryo8039]

Alot of people dont play bayo though

[@dogboyton3166]

She’s annoying, unsatisfying to play, boring from a design standpoint (her gameplan basically revolves around 3 variants of the exact same move. Yes I know Min Min players use more moves but I just don’t see them enough to care), and she doesn’t come from a franchise I care about. That last one is more subjective, but I basically have nothing to like about Min Min. And I main a DLC character myself (Joker) so I don’t even have a right to talk about DLC privilege. And she’s still my pick for my least favorite character in the game

[@infinova01]

I dislike Steve more just because of how many I see but minmin is a close second for me based off your points

[@ModernPlushCinema]

I honestly think Min Min should be replaced with Dante from the DMC (Devil May Cry) series. And yes, I know it's just another sword fighter, but he's not anime and even though I haven't played the games, I think it he would make a better addition than Min Min.

[@dogboyton3166]

@@ModernPlushCinema If it’s not Min Min, they’re a million times better. And I honestly don’t mind more swordies as long as they do enough to set themselves apart in their moveset (for example, Byleth didn’t need to be in Smash, but at least his moveset feels unique from the others)

[@nomado.3855]

@@dogboyton3166 I prefer to play as Min Min than to play as Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, MegaMan, Wii fit or Steve, they're lame as hell, even more than Min Min.

[@bingoviini]

A very extreme glass cannon Either you run circles around her, or you can't touch her and she kills you from mid stage at like 60%

[@mir8651]

Her disadvantage isn't even that bad though lol The top min min have shown that too. And it doesn't even matter as much when you have one of the best neutrals and advantages in the game

[@p_ssum]

as a min min main yes omfg this character is so gross lmfaoo i will not complain if she’s nerfed

[@krubbington]

They translated an ARMS fighter into Smash too literally. Is it cool I can use A and B as left and right arms just like in the original game? I guess, but I'd rather have a more standardized moveset where she has a distinct set of normals and specials, instead of her current design which has this weird middle-ground. Her ARMS need some form of vulnerability. Whether it's hurtboxes, arm-damage that disables them if they're hurt too much, or anything else. I don't care what it is as long as they do SOMETHING, because as it is, she can wall out half the cast for free. She's super fun in free-for-alls, for what it's worth. It's amusing to throw out Smash attack hitboxes while safely hiding in one corner of Temple like a degenerate.

[@finalmix4375]

You can definitely balance Min Min... WITHOUT giving her hurtboxes on her arms! You can just make it so that her ARMS deal more or less damage depending on where they hit the opponent, the closer you get to Min Min, the weaker she becomes.

[@RobertrulezDa1st]

This is actually how her kit already works, albeit not how you were probably envisioning but if you go into training mode RIGHT NOW you will see that a Dragon Fsmash point blank (the closest you can be) does about 19% uncharged and no laser, whereas when her arm is at FULL extension it does 27% uncharged. This concept goes for all 3 of her ARMS whether its ftilt, Fair, Bair, Fsmash what have you. Its actually a tip in the game when your waiting for a match it pops this tidbit up. So yeah this already happens in game. Yes i am a min min player so i know this

[@finalmix4375]

@@RobertrulezDa1st I just checked in the training mode and you are right about the F-Smash thing, i didn't know that. But i was mainly referring to her tilt attacks which don't share this property (unless you want to count the double hit of ram ram), her dragon arm always does 9,6% regardless of where she is.

[@cameronmyers5716]

If they made her take damage from the arms getting hit but not take hitsun from it that might help a little

[@lavalambchops]

Im sad Etika wasnt around to see Minmin in smash ultimate 😔

[@MinMin4theWinWin]

I feel attacked.

[@will.simeon2016]

I'M A PROUD MIN MIN MAIN!❤ *instant sub*

[@amazing_ace4634]

The more people talk about and hate min min the better...as long as the hate isn't directed at me, I love min min

[@sirknightjcb9310]

If she had hurtboxes on her actual arms, like how fighting games do with their zoners, like Dhalsim or Axl Low, she would be 100% much more bearable to use and to play against.

[@benross9174]

Min Min doesnt have the fire balls or teleportation of Dhalsim tbf. And Smash is notoriously disjoint heavy. I still think shes badly designed since edgeguarding tools arent equally distrubeted though. And she should be way lighter.

[@watermelongaming3698]

Look, if Mewtwo gets a permanent tail hitbox, I think Min-Min can at least handle taking damage on her arms, even if they'd make her arms armored instead of knocking her back on hit.

[@Krona-fb4dn]

@@benross9174 Range is still range. She's pretty much just a WAY better Belmont, and she wouldn't be impacted that much since she still has quite decent frame data. Playing someone like Shulk, Sephiroth, or Belmonts and you'll see they genuinely do pay their range for frame data. (Shulk does mash sometimes but he is still sluggish with nair and jab being his best options and both are quite slow, jab particularly is quite bad, sephiroth literally has like zero OOS game, and all close range tools of the belmonts are risky or not at all rewarding like jab and nair)

[@benross9174]

@@Krona-fb4dn Shulk cant really mash unless its spaced/ he’s in advantage state already since he gets outmashed by Seph Pyra and Hero (in terms of startup). Though he has frame 10 Dtilt and Airslash which are decently fast (for him). Otherwise agree; the range powercreep is certaintly an issue. I remember when Corrin and Cloud DLC range powercrept everyone in 4. And I think giving characters bad recoveries to balance them out is pretty lame as well; as edgeguarding tools arent equal between characters so its a very MU dependant weakness

[@Krona-fb4dn]

@@benross9174 I play him a LOT, he can sort of but it's not optimal and can get you punished quite easily. Shulk and the Belmonts I would say are ideal. -Range is a genuine strength they have -Offset by weaknesses in frame data and lacking good CQC

[@Zigzorark]

Spring Man should have been a day 1 character with range maybe a little longer than the Belmonts. Without such oppressive range, that would be a reason to buff his base stats like speed and jump height.

[@veissra4047]

Well they didn't agree lol. I'll admit I don't know anything about ARMS. Though I do know Spring Man is one of the main two, I forget the other one. Still as niche as the series is, and doubling back to a more unaware audience such as myself. Min Min is a more visually appealing option. Its certainly who I would play if I ever tried ARMS......which I'm not, but the point stands 😂.

[@paulpangilinan6671]

Spring Man would be a pretty terrible choice considering he isn't even popular in his own game's community.

[@MikhaliX]

I love how Minmin has a super range attack that can kill while jumping and isn't a projectile while Megaman has to stay put and use his F Smash that can be reflected by her Up Smash.

[@danielferrieri7434]

Fun Fact About Me: ARMS was the first Nintendo Switch game I ever played. So Min Min being in Smash made me Happy.

[@kevcopo]

I think it was a really cool addition but really shitty implementation

[@Emanthebald]

Don’t care. Nothing fun about that

[@layelaye]

Im happy that you are happy

[@aidenvega6306]

Min min was and still was the only character on the dlc I recognized and was excited for

[@chrismorales7516]

ok

[@deadlyespresso6166]

I do find Min Min fun to play, but I can agree that her entire playstyle is very cheesy and hard to counter. Her far-range attacks are quite exploitable in the single player modes (I ended up having to use her just to have good enough offensive and defensive options to defeat the Giga Mac spirit in World of Light), and unless you can outspeed and/or outsmart her laggy disjointed attacks, you likely won't have a fighting chance against her.

[@harenflamer]

Min Min main here. Attack her when shes in lag between her swings Get ready for her escape options Abuse her bad disadvantage states (recovery+ Landing) Dont give her a chance to breathe, Always be ready for the 2nd arm Pay attention when you're off stage

[@onthedre]

The lag in between her swings > 1 swing can defend the other > no opening.

[@mercurysnake274]

@@onthedreYou have to wait for the second arm. She’s in so much lag after it

[@daviguilherme1287]

diagonal approach really might work, melee link works the same way: you cant attack diagonally

[@SonicTheCutehog]

They could remove her from the next Smash game and most players will be happy about it

[@Matanumi]

Give us twintelle

[@dayvonlouis5187]

Can’t deny that if anything I’m actually expecting the next possible smash game to start trimming the roster a bit

[@vanessasandoval96]

No remove Min Min please I love her and they can add another Arms Character Twintelle

[@SonicTheCutehog]

@@vanessasandoval96 Twinelle or any other ARMS character will cause the same problems

[@mariothemii]

​@@Matanumihave you even played Arms? Twintelle would be one of the worst choices. Her stupid gliding mechanic along with her umbrella shield arms. Its cancer. Just adjust Min Min to make her work closer to Arms. Maybe rework her too abit too. She is the most popular character in the game and to the developer and is the only one that incorporates their legs. You just want Twintelle cuz shes hot. Well guess what, Min Min is hotter (opinion).

[@ElecManEXE]

I think the thing I would target first would be her ability to move freely while attacking. Giving such a strong zoner the ability to reposition freely while still throwing out hitboxes is pretty nuts, and lets her stretch and manipulate her hitboxes in ways that somewhat bypass the straight lines she has to attack in. Make all her grounded attacks plant her in place like basically every other character and see how she feels then. (I also think Steve should lose that ability and that it would go a long way to making him less busted too)

[@marcokrautwald1886]

you can always balance anyone and make them rewarding to play. its just less obvious with minmin

[@TopHatOnline]

It still irks me that most Smash fans at the time when the game is a year old longs for an ARMS fighter to join, and now they regret having one in it simply because she was "bad". Like geez, why are we so picky?

[@quiet-ndl3956]

Well damn, now i'm sold. Time to main minmin

[@PrestonTheSooza]

I took a realization that Japan is huge on playing Min Min then other countries, but as an American I can say min min is one of my top 5 characters

[@ThatGuy-me8wb]

6:15 "Zoner wins if enemy far, zoner loses if enemy close" IF ONLY that were the case with zoners in this game...

[@mir8651]

It is for the most part. Unless you're like Pac-Man or Snake who have dumb boxing tools as well.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

@@mir8651 Pacman only has access to a single projectile at a time. He's not a true zoner, he needs to have decent boxing tools. Snake's projectiles are a bigger threat, but his boxing tools are quite slow even if they're incredibly powerful.

[@mir8651]

@@legrandliseurtri7495 I see you've never fought a Pac-Man hiding behind their hydrant lol Their zoning is still way too good. Same with Snake. Plenty of other have good to average tools boxing. But Pac-Man and Snake have broken boxing tools for no reason.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

​@@mir8651 The hydrant makes Pacman's zoning harder to break through, but it still doesn't make it constantly threatening in the way that a true zoner's zoning would(like Samus, all of the Links, Duck Hunt, Min Min). If Pacman didn't have great boxing tools, he would be worthless as a character imo. And even with those, his weaknesses are becoming more and more apparent as the meta advances. I have strong feelings about this so I'm going to make a wall of text if you don't mind. I think Pacman is way too reliant on the opponent making a mistake to take the stock and the problem is that he can rarely force these mistakes to happen. If a Pacman player hits someone with a bell in a position where he can convert it into a smash attack, 99% of the time it means they outplayed the opponent. Meanwhile, if, for example, Corrin hits someone with a pin to take the stock, well, that doesn't say much about either player: Corrin's aerials are all very threatening because they either kill quite early or are likely to combo into a kill, so the opponent probably tried to stay grounded, and they got punished for that by a low-risk high-reward move that Corrin can just throw out whenever. Oh, sure, Pacman can kill without a bell. The best example is his forward smash, which kills extremely early, but unfortunately, it's also highly punishable on whiff, and with how optimized everyone's punish game is getting, that makes it more and more scary to use. So, if the opponent is staying calm when Pacman has the bell in hand and plays around the forward smash, the Pacman player has to slowly bring his opponent to a super high percent until even relatively weak attacks kill(bair, up air, down air, forward tilt, the hydrant, the apple). Even worse, none of these attacks can be spammed as safely as something like a Palutena bair or a Steve bair, it's always risky to some extent. Pacman's declining results support my opinion. Whatever you think of him, he has fallen off significantly in the last two years. He has become less and less popular and his win rate in tournaments keeps going down overall. Even Tea, the best Pacman player in the world, can't keep up: he got ranked outside of the top 15 for the first time in the history of the game, and now he just got his two worst offline results ever, back to back.

[@mir8651]

@@legrandliseurtri7495 I do agree with most of your points. And that taking away his boxing would make him average (like he was in Smash 4). But I think a lot of the things you described are player issues. You still can outplay your opponent and he has a lot of tools to make people make mistakes if he gets the lead. I think you are describing a character who struggles while down in a meta that doesn't help him make up that deficit. So while I agree with your points and you made great ones about the risk reward of things. I still think I would pull back his boxing a little bit while giving him a bit better zoning. Since the meta is that campy.

[@Jerry-rn9oy]

Supernova AND a new Vars 3 video. What a day.

[@OmarRodriguez-pj3qy]

It does seem like Sonic in how you described him as accidentally being one of the best. What happened is that they translated the main gimmick of a character from their game to the mechanics of Smash and that resulted in something that shouldn’t be there. Half of Sonic’s identity is speed throughout his game and gameplay (the other have is being a Hedgehog but I digress) so he’s the fastest chracter in Smash, thus giving him the infamous exploit. With Minmin, HER whole gimmick is stretching her arms to attack a distance. And look how that translated into Smash’s fighting format. Now obviously the whole point of Smash is to translate hundreds of different moves across dozens of different franchises to this one single genre of playing. Just basically saying that it may have worked to well for a few. WI think Steve and Hero are on the same page too. They brought their whole game with them lol. Thought Hero is much less viable if I’m not mistaken

[@arianagrandebayo]

i played u on elite smash the other day :D

[@alexandermcmillan8056]

Mind you this character made Leo have a small character crisis. Really speaks to the "interesting" design cboices the devs made.

[@substitutedoll5224]

mah brotha is this even a question

[@Skeloperch]

Make her useless against heavies by having her arms take damage and need to respawn a la Luma but instead of having a health bar, her arms just need 1 giant hit to break. Ganondorf would be able to cripple her while Sheik would have to play against her the old fashioned way.

[@ZombieReese]

Love the channel. Your analysis has aided me greatly. Megaman video next?

[@SoresanCrockxen]

It always feels bad being a Min Min fan.

[@aidenvega6306]

@@SoresanCrockxen we're a minority, my friend

[@SoresanCrockxen]

@@aidenvega6306 we stand strong

[@ArendAlphaEagle]

I wish there were more Min Min fans; competitive Smash completely ruined people's perspective on her. Sometimes I feel like the only MinMin fan out there.

[@darkkirb206]

Agreed.

[@mariothemii]

true that my brother

[@phorchybug3286]

She's kinda weird but fun.

[@therealatg8761]

I didn’t hear a wrong take this whole time

[@kptawesome1856]

I like Min Min. I feel like if they make her ram ram side special and side smash send opponents at more of an upward angle that'd a good nerf.

[@CrimsonWolfStudios]

I will never forget the day min-min came out, I was playing with friends. Chucked my one friend off stage, forward smashed, and managed to 2 frame them from *center stage*

[@djkori5521]

I mean this when i say this I Wish Steve was never even considered for the game. If i could get a mod and mod characters out I Disliked, he'd be the first character

[@daviguilherme1287]

dont delete her, min min is amazing and cute and i like her if you wanna nerf her so much just take out her reflector so she becomes vunerable to zoners, or make her arms stretch back slower

[@ayar2]

I dont think a content creator has the power, or even the saying to add or remove characters,. unless its a joke an it passed right above my head.

[@foxelby108]

i love her, she the expression of "learning the mu", you can edgeguard her really easly and the neutral is just learning how to shield well. she is quite heavy so combo her is quite easy too. learn the game and dont complain min min is one of many problems of this game

[@foxelby108]

and just to say, many complainers play a low tier that get destroyed anyway from any top tier, pick a good char what can i say

[@kailesperance1922]

Fighting Min Min is a lot like kidney stones because no matter how much you prepare yourself, it’s not gonna be fun.

[@theghost3813]

Meh, i still live her because of how akward she is. And with my friends we have this thing where if i pick Min Min, i become automaticly public ennemy number 1. Still funny to this day.

[@saturos5068]

Main problem is that she exists

[@BgJimy]

The only character that made to high ranked for me 😂

[@Dontannoyme34894]

She has such a lazy gameplan! You can just spam the same attacks and always win.

[@Alex1jag]

This sounds more like a salty rant than genuine character anallysis.

[@Tolinar]

Did you lose a game, friend?

[@Tolinar]

Min min emphasizes a strength her opponents must carry, in a way no other character does to quite this extreme: Approach. Nothing is more crucial to defeating Min Min than approach options. Fast characters. Floaty characters. Characters with really solid in-fast options. While every character needs away to close the gap, none more so than versus Min Min. Also, her recovery is dirt.

[@STONKS_MemeMan]

Ok

[@Tolinar]

I think Min Min is an extremely important character, alongside Samus, Ganondorf, Ice Climbers, Fox, Kirby, Little Mac and Marth. She represents an advantage taken to its logical extreme. As such, she doesn't just "change how the game is played", she changes how you quantify a contestant. Each of these characters require different traits to have an easy time fighting, a different approach to consistently win. If you use the fighting style you'd use on one of these characters on another... you'll probably have a tough time. Min Min is reasonable because she's the same way. She needs to fight Fox differently than she'd fight Ganondorf, than Kirby, than Marth. These are the fighters with polarized style - the Mold Makers. Then, there are Mold Breakers.

[@Tolinar]

Bowser is a Mold Breaker. All of his moves weaken the opponent's overall functionality of the Shield. Shielding versus Bowser is essentially a bad plan. And his own shield is great. Bowser's Roll is poor, and most of his moves are very easily handled with rolling.

[@Tolinar]

Min Min isn't a Mold Breaker - no one technique completely fails on her. Instead, characters going into the fight must answer: How will I approach? A character that lacks approach options - slower, heavier foes - will find themselves at a severe disadvantage.

[@Sideline1013]

Theres something about every character that makes them un-fun to play against. Even low tiers. To say min min is the most poorly designed character is a bit reachy (no pun intended). She just has a simple tool kit that offers good coverage. Many other characters have better coverage than min min does, but with a more expansive moveset. And im not even referring to characters with projectiles. Case and point, min min hasnt budged in the meta since she dropped to the theoretical "A-tier" (a little over a year ago). Meanwhile, characters like sonic, snake, g&w, even corrin and samus (most recently) have massively jumped in their roster placement. Objectively, poor design belongs to the characters that break a game. The ones that constantly shake up the meta, that nobody else can touch. That is not min min. Sure, she can doo all the things you say she can do. But that doesnt make her unbeatable. Theres always gonna be good match-ups and bad match-ups. It sounds to me like she just happens to counter your personal favorite characters, and you're just salty about it.

[@ayar2]

its because he's only reviewing her from just the 1v1 format perspective, ignoring the fact that characters are designed with MORE than 1 format in mind, and that a severe nerf is only guaranteed if the character has gimmicks and bugs that affect MOST of the playerbase, and the competitive scene is not even half of the total smash players, and even then, they play by their own rules that can easily ban problematic characters, but choose not to because they're waiting for an official patch that will never come.

[@Sideline1013]

@@ayar2 ya, that checks out

[@matthewbritt7485]

Never should have added this PoS character to the game

[@Mrclip-br3vz]

Like why are we afraid to criple cgaracters now . We did it before . 64 to melee That game is still around like kirby her

[@MTGDuelist8870]

Min Min is no where NEAR as bad as Steve is. . not even close, if you genuinely believe Min Min is worse then Steve then i genuinely believe you should rewatch the "Watch the Throne" game between tweak and acola with zero speed up at least 30 times.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Don't act like that set is representative of an average Steve set. For some reason, Tweek decided to not interact with Acola and let him fill up his resources, and then for some reason, Acola camped Tweek even after he acquired a massive lead. This isn't normal.

[@MTGDuelist8870]

@@legrandliseurtri7495 Tweek didn't go after Acola because mathematically speaking, Acola will come out on top of that engagement if Tweek goes after him in that situation. what's Tweek gonna do?, jump over the wall?, Upsmash covers that option and hits Tweek. Smash the wall?, Acola has all the time in the world to React because Tweek has to tear down the wall before he can reach Acola which takes ages to do and Acola can react with TONS of options. even in the games where Acola had the wall Behind him, it's still disadvantageous for Tweek to engage, because Acola can tech on the wall he built and retaliate, killing tweek and getting even more of a lead.

[@LateefA519]

I ain't even play minmin and this just sounds like crying. Minmin is very maneagable all you need to is to bait them and play reactive to them like any other character. She's a toptier for sure but she's not anywhere near the best character in the game and she's not guaranteed to win if she just plays reactive. I think you just lost to minmin a few too many times on elite smash

[@rick-fl7ql]

Why everyone plays Wario plzzz

[@Zetasaber]

Min min turns me into low tier god im not even kidding sometimes I just pull my Ethernet before the match starts

[@Untitled_Landscape]

Changes I would make Buffs: increase air mobility and ground speed slightly. Dowb smash can 2 frame below ledge now (this is for the nerfs I’m giving to ram ram) Reworks: 1. Min’s Arms when hit by nair or parred now stuns her arms for five secounds (more or less) and are in ragdoll phisycs on the ground like noodles. 2. During arm stun Min Min can still move and use her legs to attack (I will call this Leg mode, getting a new fair bair and nair with her legs so she can go in after her arms are down which will be like 50 to 75% of the match with how important nair spamming is in ult. Her leg mode grab has her grab the opponent with her leg and suplex for animation and also dealing with shield. 3: Are arms mode foward throw has her front throw from ARMS. Nerfs: 1. Ram Ram can no longer hit people put of up B (meaning she can 2 frame with ram ram but it won’t send them flying until like 350% and up B’s will practically super armor through it) 2. ram ram will get the height it has only if the Min Min aims up (so her base ram ram forward tilt will be her aiming up other wise it is just a straight foward rang in rang out. 3. Slightyl decreasing range of ram ram and she can no longer charace ram ram for a long time. 4. The dragon’s lazer will have much less knock back and if lazer is parryed then the stun effect takes place. The dragon head stays the same since it is tiny hit box wise and is a hard but consistent combo with ram ram. 5. She will be slightly lighter but not by much Overall I feel like I cooked and Nintendo should hire me. But also if there are any Min Min mains from smash and Min Min mains fron ARMS I would like feed back since this was making it based on her ARMS design with her using her legs and stuff but also I wanted to make her really fun to fight so I don’t know If I went over kill on nerfs. But I just want Min Min to be both fun to use and Fight while giving her actual fighting style from ARMS. Also this design is way easier to balance than just putting Springman in since Min Min has a bunch more variables to tweek. And this design overall forces her to go in deep for edge guards and adapting having and not having ARMS constantly. And I know this makes her more rushdown than Zoner but her Zoner attributes are too strong in this game.

[@Untitled_Landscape]

Bruh spelling is bad sorry

[@Alexrun902]

Min Min is such a badly designed character for Smash that there are only 2 paths to reduce her frustrating design. Either you cripple her and subsequently shrink the player base, or you remove her from the game entirely. I think even casual players consider her annoying as heck. It's sad that we've gotten to this point in the franchise where our only options are either to ruin this character or remove them entirely.

[@ayar2]

Im a casual and I dont mind her or even steve, those are not made for competitive.

[@3twibles4sweetrevenge]

​@@ayar2casuals dont go out their way to watch "the problem with" videos

[@ayar2]

@@3twibles4sweetrevenge casuals who like to watch smash salt do.

[@nekoblue77]

Min Min is literally the sole reason i lean more towards a franchise reboot rather than a continuation of accumulating more and more characters. She's the final straw in a frankly ridiculously full bucket off god awful designed characters and she has no business being here in the first place. If they wanna rework her, be my guest, but there's a reason ARMS as a game died, why turn smash matches into this game almost no one likes by including her.

[@pamoon_]

I called a "problem with Min Min" vid a long time ago And people said "nah you stupid"

[@kaito2220]

Dlc was a mistake

[@3twibles4sweetrevenge]

i wouldnt care if she wasnt dlc bs

[@Dakota_McCauley]

First- never clicked on a notification that fast

[@teoman200]

daddy

[@mikeshockinggentspence8714]

People are just whiny and weak to zoners, nothing the balance team could do would satisfy you people.

[@riotron1026]

Min min is a garbage character for those who are shameless enough to disregard good game design in favor of justifying easy wins.

[@aidenvega6306]

I kinda like playing against min min...

[@kelvinchukwudumebiodogwu2432]

Is min min worth playing

[@3twibles4sweetrevenge]

Yes in free 4 alls

[@JJ-sq1fv]

I like Min Min because of how unique she is tbh.

[@SuppHusky]

Thank you, I hate min min and the fact that she can't be countered with anything

[@ayar2]

why not just ban her? if no one in competitive likes her, even those that use her, whats the big deal?

[@johnc5452]

@@ayar2 Because she isn’t nearly good enough to be bannable. Extremely annoying to play against, but not overpowered

[@ayar2]

@@johnc5452 that sounds conveniently specific.

[@Pancakejae]

Long live Min Min

[@Snack1118]

As much as I don’t like watching min min doramigi is kinda hype

[@ChrisH.-oy8xf]

Min min has the second worst recovery in the game your exaggerating lol

[@Kapow59]

I can name like 10 characters with worse recoveries than minmin, whatre you smoking

[@BBB-pe3ip]

h u h

[@RaheemRollair]

If Min Min had expanded hurtboxes, she would be balanced because normally stretch zoners would still have to watch it knowing that they're still using their biological limbs to attack people. This is all the privileges of DLC.

[@captainphoton1693]

No. Not expanded hit boxes. You shouldn't be able to knock back minmin from affair. It would make her horrible to play. At best lock her in place. No walking. Wich already happen I think. But make hitting the arms damage minmin for half the damage. And maybe after taking too many hits in the arms she wouldn't be able to get the modified smash versions. And they would recover after some time. I think that would be enouth to make it so when you finally get on her. You actualy get reward since you already chipped her out.

[@maxspecs]

I’d say give her arms the same properties that Plant’s Down+B has.

[@Eddie_Enfer]

​@@captainphoton1693 Dhalsim is always like this and he es one of the most obscene characters in Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo, one of the main SFs to play competitively

[@kenspeedway1572]

​​@@captainphoton1693why she would be horrible? Just the threat of covering such massive amounts of space that quickly would is enough to make her super good. People would be whiffing normals all the time against her to get traids, so you could get punishes quite often.

[@kirby260b3]

I think that a good and cool way to nerf her would be to make it so that if you hit her arms enough you can disable one like in the ARMS game where if you hit the opponents arm enough times it gets disabled for a bit

[@classarank7youtubeherokeyb63]

Give her arms the same properties as K rool's belly armor. She can armor through most attacks but if she relies on it too much she'll break her arms and... I don't know what a fair consequence should be. A shield break is too much, so maybe just make them unusable for a time?

[@mariothemii]

that kinda how they work in actual Arms too. In Arms, you can damage your oppenents Arms which hinders their movement and stops them from moving for awhile. I love Min Min as a character but idk why sakurai didnt implement this.

[@JonathanScarlet]

I do think it might be a tad unfair to completely negate both arms, so at the very least her main dragon arm can't be broken like that. Maybe reduced damage, but still usable. Second arm can be broken, though.

[@karlispovisils5297]

There are 2 instances where Min Min is pretty satisfying in: free-for-all and teams. If you pick Min Min in a 4+ player free-for-all, it's pretty cool being able to fight on 2 fronts. Also, if she's on a team, then taking down 2 rivals at once makes you the coolest person in the room. It feels like she was designed to be fun in ONLY those modes.

[@ayar2]

same with characters like steve, ganondorf, hero and little mac. but competitive players always like to complicate themselves by trying to make everything fit their philosophy.

[@MarioMastar]

Yeah it's easy to forget these games are PARTY games first, not tournament fighters like people are trying to turn it into. I've played against Min min online and she is fun to play against when you allow yourself to just "have fun" wtih the game. Items on, stage hazards on and just go all out. The problem with videos like this is he kind of spelled out the bias assumption in the beginning that he bases his entire point on. Min min is "badly designed" because if you play Fox only, Final destination, No items" and turn the game to a f8cking math equation, then yes objectively she is the "best character", but most smash players aren't robots. we're not playing seeing a bunch of bubbles and counting frames on a flat stage designed for "tournaments". We usually play on wacky stages like Mushroomy Kingdom, with items on, 4 player free for alls and just see how things will end up. It's like claiming the ONLY way to play Mario Party is to calculate exactly when to hit dice blocks to move to certain spaces and turning off most minigames except for the ones that require precision and timing, rather than skill because it's easier to be 100% correct on a math equation than it is to react to what craziness is going on. So ultimately, none of that "bad design" aspect matters if the character is still "fun", but what's NOT fun is chain grabs and literally stopping your opponent (or yourself) from PLAYING the game period, and I don't see these video essays ever trashing Melee for that kind of stuff. I don't see tourney players ever claiming "you know, they should ban the free 70% damage I have to start with cause I used a character that can be chain grabbed", but when it comes to bashing an unpopular character like Min min or Sonic, they're quick to turn on items just to super scope both of them with infinite blasts cause they know the "community" will agree.

[@cobivert1964]

Competitive isn’t for the weak

[@Supersonic37838]

@@cobivert1964 fr

[@Nako3]

Yes Min Min is very fun in 4 player matches

[@Yiasi_G]

People at all levels of play hate Min Min. She is that badly designed. A character (that no one asked for) with that much range should not have good Frame Data.

[@DivineDa_OG]

I’m willing to bet that that if min min had the same achievements as a Steve or Kazuya people would be bitching about her even more

[@MW_FSmash]

Depends on your definition of good frame data. Most people in ultimate would say that safety on shield is the most important part of frame data, like Cloud back air, Link Nair, ROB Nair, and Steve up tilt. Min Min has terrible frame data when considering safety on shield. Instead, the only thing she really has on shield (outside of her frame 18 grab) is the mixup of throwing a single or both arms.

[@Fredysaurus]

​@@MW_FSmash being safe on shield hardly matters if you can pressure it from the other side of the stage.

[@MarioMastar]

"People at all levels of play hate Min min" sound like overgeneralization. the loud few speaking on behalf of the many. While I can see how her kit makes her really difficult to approach, a lot of the hate seems to stem more from "We need everyone to hate this character cause she wins in tournaments or cause Japan hates her" with the generalizations, but it all falls flat when every essay opens with "if you look at the frame data" and "keep in mind this is only in FD/Battle field with NO items in strict tournament setting" People just can't enjoy smash bros without making it a f8cking math problem and then complaining when the numbers don't add up to their liking. I bet none of the people who agree with this essay EVER play with items on, even casually.

[@MW_FSmash]

@Fredysaurus true, but add in nerfed shield damage, and approaching with shield which reducing her distance from you while she doesn't have frame advantage is a more consistent answer to min min than any other top tier in ultimate.

[@guedesbrawl]

i think the way to go with Min Min rebalancing is doing a lot of small, subtle things to make the overall way in that she can "counter her counters" or abuse her strengths less extreme. Like you can make her weakness to diagonal attacks more prevalent by messing with the framedata on her jump, making her take slighlty more time to get off the ground. If you also slightly reduce her jump height, air speed, air accelaration and such, she has less room to maneuver around someone trying to outmaneuver her.

[@treyara4852]

The only character in the game without the standard 3 frame jumpsquat is kazuya. I'm unsure the smash devs would want to make an equalized mechanic different for min min, but it would be fair.

[@walteranurantha5014]

Fun fact: Min Min was the most hated character to fight against in Japan.

[@zachwatts4690]

I do think you exaggerated her strength against shield. After the last patch, you’re usually not going to be in significant danger of a shield break, landing nair isn’t really safe, and if you shield the second arm, there’s quite a bit of time to get in.

[@mir8651]

You can also actually hold shield without it breaking which makes it a better approach tool. She can still commit to a risky grab but that is just neutral.

[@timmyb.3426]

My biggest problem with Min Min is that she isn't fun to fight, watch, or even PLAY AS. I refuse to ever play her.

[@sephikong8323]

Also, having a bad match-up vs Min Min feels insanely unfair. Just look at any heavyweight like DK or Bowser trying to fight her and see the amount of *FUN* the other player is having (and for the Min Min player too, how thrilling it must be to just run around and snipe your enemy knowing they can't do shit to you). It's evident that you will always have bad match-up, especially if you play a low tier against a high tier, but Min Min's favorable match-up feel particularly soul sucking. I'm baffled that the character in its current iteration made it through testing and nobody stopped to ask "is this character a fun and worthwhile inclusion ?" I swear that she could be banned from tournaments not because of how broken she is but how nobody wants to fight her or watch her fights and the average Min Min player would genuinely agree, that's how badly designed she is as a character

[@YOSSARIAN313]

@@sephikong8323 depends on the heavy. DK isnt that bad becauses he fast and can fuck minmin up when he gets close. Ganondorf and dedede are 95:5

[@MW_FSmash]

​@sephikong8323 if we're banning characters because of how unfun they are for spectators to watch, Min min shouldn't be the priority. Min min doesn't time people out, actually she forces interactions to happen.

[@Supersonic37838]

@@MW_FSmash before Steve was introduced

[@MD-se8ft]

​@@sephikong8323with all my respect, this whole "character should be banned cuz they're boring" is a horrible mindset. The only determining factor if a character should be banned is if they're broken broken (wiiubayo, brawlmetaknight, plmgsteve). I dont think she's broken but damn is dlc pack 2 horrible to deal with except for sephiroth and sora.

[@toxicsquid0548]

I've played arms, and a big thing I noticed is that in smash, her arms travel out much faster than in arms. Maybe reducing the travel speed on megawatt and dragon, then nerfing ram-ram's damage and knockback to be more poke-like would be good? also maybe nerfing the knockback and damage on the dragon's laser, since it would be noticably faster than the arm with these changes, trading the power of the arm for faster and further reach.

[@SNG_ARMS]

An ARMS character was a super deserved spot in Ultimate and personally my most wanted, and while I find Min Min the most fun to play as in Ultimate, I do agree she reeks of DLC privilege. If you gut the speed and angles of her arms, as well as adding hitboxes to them, and addign some endlag, she can keep her playstyle like all Fighting Game Characters while making her design less overwhelming.

[@noodlesandeggs1512]

I suppose one change I could make would be so if Min Min throws out one of her arms and it gets shielded or blocked, she can’t immediately throw out her other arm. Make it so that clanking or shielding her attacks gives her more start up lag with her next arm for a short time to account for her ridiculous range.

[@igotthemunchies7292]

I keep telling ppl if there wer more Min-Min and Pikachu mains ppl wouldn’t complain about Steve or G&W so much

[@Countdownsmiles]

Pikachu had so much hate when the game launched bro, i actually still can't play pikachu for fun without somebody groaning lol

[@riotron1026]

Would make the experience of competitive play even more 💩.

[@KingObliv]

this makes me wonder if it's good or bad she's not fun unlike Steve and Kazuya who are super fun

[@fruitloop420]

Min Min definetely has glaring flaws in character design, but outright removing her wont be the right solution, and it will never be the right solution for any character, not for kazuya, steve, corrin or other black sheeps of the roster, for whatever reason it may be. Removing a character just because they are problematic is lazy and ignorant, and if anything would hurt the game, as it would remove a part of what makes the game so special in the first place: variety in franchises and playstyles, a variety that connects people.

[@GigaBlift]

I think the only way to fix her is to implement completely new mechanics. Maybe make her arms resources like Robin: they could all be used just the same, but after enough use, they could "break", then after a while, one or all could come back or something. This arm damage idea is something i've seen a lot of people talk about and I think it might help the spamming. You probably wouldn't wanna spam Ram-ram if you know you could end up wasting it or that you have a limited amount before you have to wait for it again. I did think about the possibility of being able to break the arms themselves with attacks, but I honestly don't think it would do much outside of emphasizing the pseudo-finite stamina of the arms. Idk, thoughts chat?

[@simplyeyeronic1443]

I think the issue of min min isnt nesscarily that of range but rather that of commitment. In this regard, shes much less like Axl Low or Dahlsim and much more like Happy Chaos.

[@marcokrautwald1886]

ok let me give a solution just took 5 min. make her arms hitable but only the noodle part. also make her arms snap back instantly if it hits a shield. the rest can be done with adjusting demage numbers and weight.

[@Za_Phantom]

the problem with min min is that she's too goated, and makes it everyone else's problem. Truly the hero of ultimate 😄

[@aboxyguy]

i love arms and im still praying for the day we get a sequel, but even as a casual ive always felt dirty playing her. she's her moveset is faithful and exactly what i expected from an arms character and it just doenst translate well in smash. like people have said an arm damage mechanic couldve gone a long way in balancing her. doesnt have to damage her, just disable the damaged arm briefly if you get too greedy recklessly launching em out

[@gameboyn64]

Why don't they just make min min like plant where her arms have hurt boxes when she extends?

[@noodlesandeggs1512]

Because that would literally kill her. P Plant only has one move that extends her hurtbox. Being a character with all your vertical moves extending your hurtbox would make her unplayable. She simply has too many moves that exposes her and would make her even more polarizing

[@ToadetteTails6969]

Never did I think a "zoning brawler" character would go well. While I like Min Min in general, I can see why a lot of people complain about her. At least the two archetypes have their own seperate weaknesses to keep them in check. Min Min is like the cursed combination of the two that isn't supposed to exist or be possible.

[@southpen4558]

I think that if parrying was just buffed against her (and zoner in general) itd solve not only this, but most of Ultimate's balance problems. If minmin can hit you from the ther side of the stage, she should also be like, completely frozen for like 20 frames if you pary it, not including endlag

[@grimsdol4665]

Characters like Min-Min makes me wonder if sometimes they just let an intern design these characters

[@AshBlossomWorshiper]

My queen

[@smashdriven1640]

Min Min feels like one of those characters that don’t belong in Smash. Along with Hero and Steve, at least with their current movesets.

[@JacobPDeIiNoNi]

Nah hero belongs in smash. Apart from the language barrier issue, which can and should be fixed in the next game, he’s fine. His rng is frankly more balanced than that of peach or game and watch. Replace hero with kazuya and then we’d be talking

[@ihopeyouandicanbefriends]

im so glad this character came out after i stopped playing like a bomb-spamming zoning asshole with samus cuz would have ruined so many peoples' fun with min min omg

[@anthonyfish8236]

The worst part about Min Min and what made her so hated especially in Japan's competitive scene is her design effectively nullifies half the cast. Or at the very least, makes doing well competitively with characters who lack options for getting past her arms that much more difficult (especially Ganondorf and Little Mac).

[@matthiasschuster9505]

Well, Ganondorf and Little Mac are out for many reasons, against basically the whole other cast as well

[@nomado.3855]

I you want to see how polarizing can be to play against Min Min, Watch Pink Fresh vs Peanut, Pink took 1 stock from Peanut in less than ten seconds. That's how I love and hate the character so much 😂.

[@ayar2]

using a character with bad recovery and no zoning tools against Min Min is just asking to be clobbered tbh.

[@costathiago2562]

I like to think you played a random match against her lost so you made a whole video out of just that match 😂

[@TamiGeorge-vs1ug]

In poppt1 newest video, min-min was second to the most hated characters in SSBU