Vatulanatha REFUTES Patanjali ! (and, why the Yoga-sutra is the wrong text for YTTs)

[@benlewis55]

Fabulous, thank you, thanks for this important revelation. Nisagardatta says don't meditate for long periods, he says get out there and experience life with awareness.

[@cosmoscripts2422]

‘Embracing embodiment’, as oppose to escaping it, always did intuitively feel to me to be the underlying intent of conscious existence. The sage advice to “Follow your Bliss” allows rang true to me. Would think that wisdom relating to Divine Feminine entanglement is involved. Success to you with these teachings!

[@hilkka_nen]

Amazing, and what a relief! Thank you. ❤

[@EvelynEinhaeuser]

What Patanjali refers to is ones capacity to realize the Self by stopping your thoughts. When mental activity is brought to a halt, your true nature can be known to itself. What then happens is that you can recognize your Self as standing independent of all phenomena. Even thought forms then appear as movements simply appearing within awareness. It stands in no way oppositional to Vatulantha, as once the Self is realized, our known doership ceases to exist. All actions arise spontaneously from the same essence and yet the mind has lost its faculty of engineering actions.

[@christopherwallis751]

well, the thing is, you can't stop thoughts. when you try to stop them, it just gives them power because you're still engaging with them. And yes, recognition of the Self is way easier when the mind is truly quiet. It's just not the only way. Very much agree with your last three sentences though.

[@darrenwendroff3441]

Perhaps, but your observation about not stopping thoughts is based on your own experience. My thoughts come from my experience, and are perhaps influenced by my perspective of experience. Who is to understand the thoughts and experiences of a Patanjali, a Yogananda, a Ramana Maharshi? ... What are their thoughts of? I certainly an only understand my own personal experience and not assume to understand another's exactly. Perhaps Patanjali has thoughts and they're more quite/subtle. Perhaps he had thoughts of love, connection, insights, alignment only and his thoughts were reinforced by that perspective. Or perhaps he had no thought since he was perfectly in the moment, and his only thoughts were of his current experience as it was happening.

[@christopherwallis751]

@@darrenwendroff3441 not just my own experience. everyone who tries it discovers that you *can* create conditions in which the mind eventually quiets down, but you can't force the mind to stop. so "stopping your thoughts" is a nonsensical phrase. as for the rest of your comment, what's the point to such speculation? None, in my view.

[@5piles]

@@christopherwallis751 thoughts are easy to cease entirely, what is more complex is suspending all the sense consciousnesses ie. accomplishing perfect samadhi. its time to abandon dead linages and study the 9 stages of shamata by kamalashila.

[@branandubh]

Great video. Also important to recognise that patanjala yoga shastra identifies itself as a work of sankhya. How many modern yogis actually understand this darshan, let alone want to follow it.

[@Emily-jt3nh]

I always thought of that first sutra as referring to the cessation of the constant mental noise that most people live with before examining their conditioning, and after quieting some of that you can start to more clearly see/reflect on an underlying essence nature. It never occured to me that permanent cessation of (mental/emotional/psychological) activity could be an end-goal for a living breathing human 🤔

[@christopherwallis751]

and that is why most Sanskrit scholars believe that Patañjali envisions the goal of his system being attained only at the time of physical death.

[@McIntoshYoga]

Your videos are always very interesting and informative. Over the years I have read many interpretations (not translations) of the Yoga Sutra and realized that each one was influenced by the authors' biases and beliefs. So, I studied the sutras and wrote my own Yoga Sutra(s) in a Nutshell by Pantanjali without commentary; just plain ole' easy to read and to the point. I will look into your retreat. Thank you very much for your expertise.

[@antoniocorreia376]

once a gain! thanx for the videos, i made a ttc and i was the only one to bring the sutras of Patanjali in a classe iwth 25, mostly the students bring from the courses are physical information "hatha", but one again you bring very god stuff tro the yoga world, thnax

[@Hello.Yellow.Mellow]

❤ your perspective J Krishnamurthi said ,” Truth is a path less land”, and, I’m so thankful that you are shedding new light and challenging the status quo on this topic. . I heard you talk about this on the Keen for Yoga podcast and was hoping you would address it in more detail. I have been practising yoga for 20 years and volunteering to teach it for past 5. Even if i could slowdown the pravrittis and the nivrittis both, it only happened to me with movement ie yoga asana. So I practise in the dark, practise with mantra uccharan, practise with prayer etc- and when I complete my practise, I feel a profound and lasting sense of stillness. Please may I know if the retreat recordings are available on your website ? I would like to subscribe. Thanks 🙏 safe to say in you I have found a teacher whose words resonate with my core.

[@christopherwallis751]

Wonderful! Recordings of many retreats, courses, and workshops are all available on my learning portal, along with many guided meditations as well.

[@tookie36]

Like a lot of people I went from Pattabhi Jois’ Ashtanga yoga… to reading Patañjali. And instantly thought well that’s different. Let’s study this more. Sort of wild how we in the States got introduced to eastern teachings.

[@MikkoHere]

Yes, my teacher in India always said that, while the first 6 limbs are addressed, Patanjali’s sutras are mainly for those who have already reached dhyana (meditation stage) if not samadhi.

[@nimim.markomikkila1673]

Wallis is saying a bit more here. Yoga-sutra is aimed at awakening thorough transcendent states, while the nondual tantrik path is aimed at awakening through embodied states. Both aim at liberation from the belief, that I am the mind/body, but in a very different way.

[@MikkoHere]

@@nimim.markomikkila1673 of course he is saying more. I'm just adding a comment on one aspect.

[@MikkoHere]

@@nimim.markomikkila1673 also: where, explicitly, does Patanjali state that yoga seeks "liberation from the "belief" that I am the mind/body?" On the surface this seems a gross oversimplification. He refers to the kleshas, for example, of asmita and avidya--but these go way beyond mere "belief."

[@christopherwallis751]

liberation from identification with body-mind would be more accurate. that does go beyond 'belief'.

[@selfandcalm]

Thank you Hareesh, once again you bring clarity to the yoga jungle. I'm really looking forward to diving deep into the Vatulanatha Sutren in this powerful place in Portugal! Will there ever be a book of the sutras?

[@christopherwallis751]

yes.

[@SeekingShreyas]

Hareesh ji, you are literally dismantling like, everything I know to be "true" right now. Don't know whether to hug or smack you. 😅 -Michaela

[@christopherwallis751]

that's the path. dismantling everything you think is true.

[@SeekingShreyas]

@@christopherwallis751 Yes, but I wasn't really aware that I was taking the "red pill" when I started reading, watching, listening, and participating, questioning...if that makes sense. 😂 I wouldn't change it, not for anything, but it definitely feels like I'm in a freefall with all of my b.s stories and ideas and judgements and beliefs...oh, and PLANS...crumbling into ashes or suddenly becoming... Flux. This is coming from a chick with "Everything Burns" written on her right shoulder blade, so...bravo Hareesh ji. 🙏🥲 Thankfully, I do believe ashes can be sacred (vibhuti, deha-shuddhi)... Keep that sacred fire burning Hareeshji. 🙏

[@dir3907]

Hello, Harish Thank you, I see this reflection and understanding is absolutely necessary in these days’ sadhana. In regard to repeating sutras, Would you say it is really more “powerful” to repeat them in sanscrit? Or are statements of the Truth more “attainable” if repeated in one’s native language?

[@christopherwallis751]

it doesn't matter, cuz recitation in any language isn't gonna do anything. only seeing the non-verbal reality that the sutras are pointing towards will facilitate awakening.

[@davidcook637]

Love this, but can’t help wondering if cessation of fluctuations and activity of spontaneous immediacy are not co-dependent or at least closely related or somehow…

[@christopherwallis751]

not necessarily. but also, yes, the first can precipitate the second.

[@davidcook637]

What if spontaneous immediacy is not a condition in which things are happening or being done?

[@christopherwallis751]

@@davidcook637 well, there's always something happening.

[@davidcook637]

It certainly seems that way ordinarily, but sometimes I’m not so sure…. when all things and activities are simultaneously manifesting and dissolving, what is it exactly that is happening?

[@christopherwallis751]

@@davidcook637 Nothing. ;)

[@Yogelaine]

Is it possible to have access to the retreat recordings if we missed it live?

[@sydpf117]

Listening to you, it seemed to me that Patanjali considered Atmavypati the most supreme thing to achieve without considering or experiencing the ultimate state, Śivavyapti. My language is not english, sorry for the possible errors.

[@christopherwallis751]

yep.

[@mdav30]

Transcendental texts and perspectives (i.e., Advaita and the YSs) were taught without conflict along fully non-dual texts in SY. As I once heard it put, Vedanta is Vedanta plus implicit Tantra, and Tantra is Vedanta with explict Tantra. In either case, I see them as adjacent realizations, or perhaps that the transcendent is the penultimate one, because once nirvikalpa samadhi is achieved, then only sahaja is left to see. My concern for today's practitioners is that they don't go far enough into the transcendent and pursue the nondual with some confusion. Or so it seems to me.

[@christopherwallis751]

well, tbh, there only *appeared* to be no conflict because the SY teaching didn't go very deep into what Shaivism/Tantra had to say on the matter. but yes, they are reconcilable in a sense, if transcendence is followed by pervasion of all that was previously transcended. and yes, agree, today's practitioners are missing the transcendent piece oftentimes.

[@xenocrates2559]

Is there a translation of Patanjali that you think presents his actual intention?

[@christopherwallis751]

Edwin Bryant's is good. And mine, of course (not yet published but available online). ;)

[@ashutosh1054]

Its mahā-sāhasa Chris, Great Courage...I wonder how come you translated it as Great Spontaneous Immediacy

[@christopherwallis751]

@@ashutosh1054 because sāhasa does not mean courage.

[@ashutosh1054]

@@christopherwallis751 sāhasa literally means courage, even Lakshmanjoo translated it as bravery or courage, in his commentary on the sutra. Please check any hindi or english dictionary! Sahasā or Sahaj means spontaneous, not sāhasa

[@christopherwallis751]

@@ashutosh1054 I have a PhD in Sanskrit, bro. I know WTF the words mean. The commonest meaning of sāhasa is audacity or assault or violent impact (see for example Apte's Sanskrit to English dictionary) -- but in this text it has a specialized meaning, which I have chosen to translate as spontaneous immediacy. Courage is an incorrect translation, regardless of what SLJ says. He was not a Sanskrit pandit.

[@christopherwallis751]

You can also verify this yourself by reading the commentary, which says nothing whatever about bravery or courage. And here the commentary is written by the same person who gave us the sutras themselves.

[@ashutosh1054]

@@christopherwallis751 And I am a Pandit, studying sanskrit since childhood. I have not read any Sanskrit dictionary where sāhasa is translated as spontaneous immediacy. Please refer a source. Even in common hindi sāhasa is used to refer Courage or Boldness. Check Cologne Digital Sanskrit Dictionaries among others, "Sāhasa (साहस) [Also spelled sahas]:-(nm) courage, nerve, guts; boldness, daring; enterprise; ~[sika] daring, bold, courageous; •[kārya] adventure, daring deed; ~[sī] courageous; enterprising, adventurous; ~[sa chūṭanā] one’s courage to give way; -[sa dikhānā] to put up a bold face, to act boldly; ~[sa baṭoranā] to muster/pluck up courage, to take heart of grace." SLJ was literally a Pandit and learnt sanskrit in his teenage years. PS. As per Monier-Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary one of the meaning of the word Sāhasa is 8) n. (ifc. f(ā). ) boldness, daring, rashness, temerity, any precipitate or reckless act, [Mahābhārata; Kāvya literature] etc.

[@Hello.Yellow.Mellow]

Hi Hareesh Ji, Realisation is a personal journey and someone could find Patanjali's way more in sync with them, while the others could prefer Vatulnatha. When we put them in opposition, aren't we creating a dualistc perspective to realisation? Which defeats the purpose of realisation because it's about oneness.

[@christopherwallis751]

Not at all. "All paths lead to the same goal" is a fallacy that was not embraced by any philosopher or sage of premodern India (see the chapter in my latest book on this subject, and/or chapter 8 in The Recognition Sutras). It's not about what you perceive as "in sync" with you (let alone what you "prefer"), but rather about whether the path in question can lead you to full & complete realisation or only partial. There's not even a single example of anyone alive today (or in the recent past) who we could cite as liberated through Pātañjala yoga. Results matter.

[@Hello.Yellow.Mellow]

@christopherwallis751 thank you for sharing that. I have Recognition sutra I will look it up Iam both shocked and surprised that this is a near enemy, without any empirical evidence.I have always preferred the path of reducing and removing stimuli from my mind To think, it's not an effective way is to unlearn a fundamental pillar of conditioned truth. Suddenly I find myself without a truth

[@christopherwallis751]

@@Hello.Yellow.Mellow whether it's effective or not depends upon a wider context.

[@christopherwallis751]

such questions require a more nuanced reply than I can give here. please consider joining my learning portal at tantrailluminated.org for indepth discussion, satsang, and Q&A.

[@Hello.Yellow.Mellow]

@@christopherwallis751 yes iam a member already :) I read chapter 8 and managed to understand why I made the above comment. It can be because of a surplus of Shakti practices in my daily living, and a yearning for awareness practices, which I was confusing with chitta vritti nirodah, IE" how can I be one with awareness with a highly active mind. I need to slow it's whirlpools first " I remember you spoke about awareness practices in the 21 day challenge in January this year The practice of becoming one with the void. Maybe I should revisit that meditation

[@TantraAmorConsciente]

Dear Hareesh, Hatha Yoga Pradipika mentions the Yamas and NIyamas so they are a part of Hatha Yoga in this tradition. How can people separate it?

[@christopherwallis751]

separate what, from what?

[@TantraAmorConsciente]

hatha yoga from yamas and niyamas

[@collyernicholasjohn]

The point is Hātha yoga developed independently out of Buddhist tantra, and Patanjali was grafted onto it retrospectively- that’s why it doesn’t fit!

[@christopherwallis751]

yes, that's mostly true, and the retrospective grafting happened only in the 20th century.

[@chrisj5505]

Cultivating the body would be better to focus on qigong and Daoist Training. It is transcendental at its later stages but places emphasis on body first. Fill each cup in sequence or more accurately empty each cup in sequence

[@christopherwallis751]

better than what?

[@GodsGreatestGrace]

Clearly, modern Yoga has nothing to do with Yoga...

[@christopherwallis751]

One can make that argument, sure, but what is even more interesting is the tension we see between the tantric teachings and those of Patanjali.

[@annalane13]

Much needed clarification❤

[@Metaperspectives108]

Is your translation of VS available at this time?

[@christopherwallis751]

see my latest blog post!

[@don_aapo]

This is funny I just mentioned Patanjali in my blog that people should read it but had no idea about this

[@don_aapo]

The wall behind you makes me miss being in Portugal. Had a great time in Lisbon last time around. Portugal is like my home away from home, need to go soon.

[@rise3335]

the opposite is true. Patanjali yoga-sutras are the core text for modern yoga practitioners. It's not about "transcendence vs being in this world". It's about viveka of nitya vs anitya (purusha vs prakriti in sankhya) in any true path. vama tantra is not suitable for our age. To perform tantra rituals one needs the whole day. It's a non starter if done properly.

[@christopherwallis751]

That's not the sort of tantra I'm speaking of here.

[@darrenwendroff3441]

Really cool clip, I haven't heard of the Vatulanatha sutras, but I like a different path, especially one so different than Patanjali's. Def click bait headline tho, though what it's a funny idea the crowd getting click bated by a Vatulanatha/Patanjali conflict. To me the truth is that Vatulanatha and Patanjali are both right. They articulated their truths, and these are very deep truths respected by many, similar to a powerful scientific theory, but they're not the entire story. The entire story, thus the truth for me, is that both these ideas can and do exist, that neither is the only path to the mountain top. To me the truth is something that holds both polarities. What's interesting about something holding both polarities is it doesn't really have a name. Perhaps om is the sound we use to represent it, but it isn't a concept we've created. Perhaps :)

[@christopherwallis751]

They can be compatible on the *practice* front, but not on the View (philosophical) front, because they're saying opposite things.

[@gopisuvanam6905]

small comment they are vAtUla natha sutras.. long A and U.. soft t

[@christopherwallis751]

actually vAtula is also correct

[@MayaMatrixMuktiManifestor]

I wouldn't call it "rescue." It's more like "hijack" - wouldn't you agree? Each one for their own objective. Furthermore, this extrapolation or diversion is not specific to yoga; it happens all the time in all walks of life.

[@LLambert]

It's understandable that you are totally wrong about the Yoga Sutras, so many others now and for centuries before have also had these mistaken ideas.

[@christopherwallis751]

LOL. you *do* realize that I've read the Yoga-sūtra in the original Sanskrit, right?

[@gansvoortvet]

It's true that in modern yoga and meditation practices, there has been a resurgence of interest in more inclusive and experiential approaches, which can align with certain aspects of tantric philosophy. Many practitioners today are exploring a broader range of practices that may include visualization, mantra chanting, and energy work, which are commonly associated with tantric traditions. This shift towards a more accepting and inclusive approach can be attributed to various factors, including the influence of diverse spiritual and cultural perspectives, the integration of mindfulness practices from different traditions, and the evolving needs and preferences of contemporary practitioners. This approach often seeks to integrate the benefits of meditation and mindfulness into daily life, promoting personal growth, well-being, and self-awareness. However, it's worth noting that this modern acceptance of tantric-like practices doesn't necessarily mean a rejection or refutation of Patanjali's classical approach. Many modern practitioners still find value in the systematic and disciplined path outlined by Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. In fact, some individuals might integrate elements from both approaches, adapting their practice to their own preferences and goals. Ultimately, the evolution of yoga and meditation practices is a reflection of the diverse range of spiritual seekers and practitioners in today's world. Different individuals resonate with different approaches, and the beauty of modern yoga is its adaptability to individual needs and aspirations. Whether drawing from Patanjali's classical teachings or incorporating aspects of tantric-like practices, the goal remains the same: inner transformation, self-awareness, and well-being!

[@christopherwallis751]

please don't post comments that you got from chatGPT.

[@cozmicwater]

⁠@@christopherwallis751nice catch on the chat🙏🔱