Vecna creates The Mind Flayer | Stranger Things 4 (Vol. 2)

[@noahnolan7199]

the mind flayer is just chilling in his home and this man comes in turning him into a spider

[@Yoshsterpalooza]

It was the hive mind, it wasn’t sentient. Vecna gave it a will and purpose to serve him and shaped it

[@luvely.fat0oom]

TRUEEEE

[@bob-fi8ql]

I hate it when that happens 🙄

[@Bored_beyblading6744]

@@bob-fi8ql same bro

[@kromakon1159]

Looloo

[@tworatsexactly4665]

Before One, the Mind Flayer was just a mindless brain of the Upside Down, then Vecna shaped it and gave it his motive. It's basically Vecna's self-insert.

[@sarchiaponeseriale4380]

but if you see the mind flayer when Henry got yeeted into the upside down was yet there, he was trying to get in our world with the tentacle so i think that they like connected their mind together.

[@AgnieszkaCharyszynczarna40]

Mind flayer to władca upside down a vecna to przywódca jego armii lecz to nie znaczy że mind flayer też nie może, oby dwoje mają super zdolności mind flayer może telepatycznie rozkazać wszystkim istotom atakować vecne a vecna może rozkazywać telepatycznie ale nie może rozkazać istotom żeby atakowały mind flayer'a, za to Vecna może otwierać bramy między światami a mind flayer nie może i mind flayer może kontrolować umysł ofiary z tąd jego nazwa a Vecna nie może

[@t6nju326]

Yes but if Vecna has died would have the mind flayed died?

[@Vinecreations1]

@@t6nju326 perhaps the mind flayer will be freed from vecna’s clutches and go back to being a mindless entity.

[@jbrewerman2]

I liken it to a relation between a ventriloquist and its puppet.

[@hrganley]

On one side, it makes sense to have the main villain with a personality and comprehensible motive as we head to the finale. On the other, and as a fan of Lovecraftian villains, making the flayer a 'creation' of One/Vecna does bring down the eldritch character of the creature and its presence. Basically swapping Azathoth for Voldemort.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

Это обидно:( надеюсь это не так

[@elisabeth2193]

I think they are still 2 very separate things. Henry just gave the Mind Flayer shape. It’s still eldritch, unknowable. Right now, it’s just allowing itself to be joined with something human. The flayer IS the upside down. It can break off from Henry at any time if it so chooses

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

​@@elisabeth2193 он хитрый:)

[@irwinos719]

it’s still pretty lovecraftian, it was some formless entity in the abyss that existed before Vecna. Vecna just gave it a shape. We’re not even entirely certain it’s place with Vecna, is it controlled by him? pretending to be controlled by him? or a faustian pact sort of deal where they just work together?

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

​@@irwinos719 my guess is that they made a deal, and oh god it reminds me sometimes of bill cipher and stan ford, bill is the mind flayer and stanford is vecna, literally, even when stanford and bill made the deal, bill still went his own way and wreaked havoc on the city , Stanford is naive ... so Bill thinks, just like with the Mind Flayer and Vecna ​​(if I made a mistake somewhere, then forgive my assumptions)

[@BuddemsMorgan]

Henry: *goes into The Upside Down* Mind Flayer: *chilling* Henry: I’m gonna turn you into a spider Mind Flayer: what. Henry: *turns him into a spider* Mind Flayer: I suddenly have the urge to rule another world

[@YourBoss_CORP]

Yeah, it be like that.

[@scoposteve8470]

It always had the urge the moment it found out about the other world. Vecna is basically just his Uber driver.

[@ludicrousmodel3173]

The mind flayer was his weapon, it was controlled by Henry.

[@clarkC-137]

This is not the UD, it's the dimension X

[@BigBootyDuty]

@@ludicrousmodel3173 Actually the exact opposite, as of The First Shadow and the VR game.

[@rebellious_red7123]

I for one personally liked the idea that the Mind Flayer was a completely its own thing like a cosmic entity of Lovecraftian influence. It would've felt more mysterious and far more freightening if its origins was never fully explained.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

I'm agree, IMHO but still I would like to have its origin explained, I'm just interested learn, and it seems to me that he acts as an Invader rather than a destroyer, I want to believe that this is really is a separate being, if it turns out not to be so, i will leave this the show, After all, The mind flayer is he more suitable for the role of a villain in the series, I just like him better than Vecna. In any case, the creators of the series will be able to surprise us with something. (sorry for the mistakes in words, I bad know English ^^")

[@johndetheshape3095]

@@AgOti-ZaDrOtItf 😂

[@TheVoid-ri8nv]

​No, I agree with him. I think it's really funny that you dream about a fictional entity every night, sounds like something out of R&J ​@Agoti-ZaDrotI

[@scoposteve8470]

Boy do I got good news for you. It was the Mind Flayer the whole time. Vecna has been flayed since he was a kid

[@TheVoid-ri8nv]

@@AgOti-ZaDrOtI Yes it is funny, didn't I already said that?

[@thecodedgamer5227]

I believe that Henry subconsciously formed the Mind Flayer's spidery shape and gained some of its powers but he didn't create it. Henry always saw spiders as powerful and he drew the picture of the shadowy spider as basically a god to him. When he saw the Mind Flayer, he imagined it as his god. The part in Kate Bush's song "If I only could I'd make a deal with god (Mind Flayer). He subconsciously made a deal with the mind flayer shaping it into the spider and gaining a portion of its powers. In summary, the Mind Flayer was always around as a dimensional hive mind and when Henry entered the upside-down and reached out to it, he made a deal with it, reshaping it and gaining a portion of its powers.

[@ghosthegoated]

obviously bro, mind flayer was the particles, the hive mind of that world, but then vecna came and formed him, imagined him as a spider form thing

[@drinmehmeti8173]

Yeah that was pretty obvious but nice observation none the less 👍

[@gothgirl311]

uh, no. first of all this has no connection to Kate Bush's song, you're reading too deep into that. second of all, the Mind Flayer wasn't exactly created by Henry, it already existed as a shapeless form, the brain of the upside down - but Henry, using the abilities he has, gave it its purpose and motivation. it was literally just doing it's thing before Henry arrived. also, Henry already has powers of his own, power enough to manipulate the Mind Flayer; he didn't need to gain anything from it. he's really the reason why the upside down is the way it is.

[@gothgirl311]

Henry believes HE is the god. he said it himself, he saw a way to realise his true potential, transcend his human form. he's the one who has manipulated all the creatures that were once peacefully living there and going about their lives.

[@kip3427]

@@gothgirl311 where did you get the Henry giving it purpose and motivation from all i can see is him giving it a form that sounds baseless

[@jakublizon6375]

I knew it I knew it I knew it. The black widows gave it away. They were so impactful on Vecna, it's no wonder his top creature is a spider.

[@amazingtrooper5893]

Yeah same I knew it as well cos this man just loves spiders

[@scoposteve8470]

Me too. I knew the mind flayer was corrupting people long before Will. Vecna was the one to truly be his vessel to get to our world

[@BigBootyDuty]

And you were wrong. The reason he likes Spiders is because of the Mind Flayer imprinting it's form on his consciousness. He drew the Mind Flayer just like Will did, and Brenner's father as well did the same.

[@TsRAbyssers]

Man i was really hoping we'd get to see the mind flayer in action, well at least they didnt forget to add him for a second

[@actual_ape1126]

Next season bro, Vecna is the mind flayer and he will use that body to terrorize Hawkins now that a gate big enough for the flayer to get through is constructed

[@samuelhaile9230]

Vecna isn’t the Mind flayer, he created him to be his ultimate weapon.

[@TsRAbyssers]

@@samuelhaile9230 Vecta didn’t create the things to make the mind flayer

[@sunday7224]

@@actual_ape1126 cool to hear someone w the same theory as me. the gate is in a pattern that would fit da flayer too, 4 legs (kinda), 4 cracks. makes sense

[@TheToolBox99]

@@actual_ape1126 season 2 gate be like:

[@uncleuncle4428]

Mind flayer punching air rn. This random ass dude walks in and turns him into a big ass spider. Nah I’d be pissed

[@gxnard4507]

Wait did the mind flayer even have a mind before vecna came and turned him into the spider?

[@uncleuncle4428]

@@gxnard4507 yeah he was still like a living thing. But vecna shaped him and gave him a motive and shit

[@Ronruk]

@@uncleuncle4428 no Vecna gave it a mind (his mind)

[@jacobtennyson9213]

@@gxnard4507 ... The Mind-Flayer used to be a floating shadow particles in the sky that was imprisoned. Henry Creel ( Vecna)-001 arrived in the Upside Down and set it free by using his powers to give it form.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

Mind Flayer my crash... ❤

[@samuelhaile9230]

I hope we see more of the Mind Flayer with Vecna in season 5.

[@Zvr333]

Vecna dead tho

[@bbldrizzyk]

@@Zvr333 no he’s not lol

[@dadislow]

@@Zvr333 no he’s alive

[@Zvr333]

@@dadislow how?

[@Zvr333]

@@dadislow the gate is clocked and I thought he died

[@ndongengone7284]

It is more accurate to say that there was already a formless hive life form that existed. This form of life being malleable, 001 gave it a form which is close to the spider because it is for him a form which represents the divinity. So it's not really correct to say that he created the mind flayer 100%, he used a form of life and consciousness that already existed which he gave form and put under his control.

[@samuelault4723]

He created the mind flayer as we know it and is the reason it is a threat in the show.

[@ndongengone7284]

I think that for once, the Duffers really missed the opportunity to make a dantological Boss monster for the universe of Stranger thing. Reducing the final enemy and the entire dimension of the Stranger Things universe to just a haughty, revenge-seeking human mass killer is a small regression in writing. I don't know, but it reduces (for me in any case), the dimension of the threat, not in the consequences on the physical level that it brings, but rather in the spirits. I mean, for a universe like Stranger Things, it would have been better if the final boss had been a cosmic or dimensional entity, that we couldn't clearly understand, that didn't necessarily have desires for revenge or that kind of feeling. human a bit reductive, but who just feels the need to expand again and again by braving the obstacles on his way, like a virus. Because, apart from Vecna ​​and the mind flayer, if we remove these two, the Upside Don seems like a banal world where demogorgons and demodogs roam, nothing more. So (if I was a writer) the smartest idea would have been to make Vecna ​​a collaborator. You see, an anomaly in your body and you realize that you have a use for each other and work together to achieve this same goal. For once, the Duffers were not very clever on this aspect, and it is felt in the public after the revelation of the Mind Flayer. The dimension of the threat is somewhat reduced given that it essentially comes from a human being guided by emotion.

[@axolotl8876]

THE mind flayer controls vecna

[@jamster2006]

@@ndongengone7284 I actually agree with this.

[@jamster2006]

However, I think the mind flayer is not some mindless entity, but however, has been playing the long game.

[@bobbywatkins6135]

I like to think that vecna and The mind flayer are basically (at this rate) the same person, with vecna being the physical form and mind flayer being the mental form since Henry was obsessed with spiders seeing them as alpha predators, so he formed the mind flayer to BE the thing he always wanted to be and was fascinated over.

[@jacobtennyson9213]

Vecna and the Mind-Flayer are two different creatures. But their minds are linked.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

Bruh, MIND FLAYER BEST!!! ♥♥💯💯💯

[@mike_theskinny8646]

one speculate that mind flayer was there since the beginning of time and space along with the upsidedown realm, a cosmic entity or some sort it was just there we're not sure if it had a mind of its own surely it might but i believe it was neutral neither malevolent or benevolent just keeping the " upsidedown " stable and you can see it being vecna entered the unexploited world and did exactly what he said and he infiltrated its mind, the very core of it becoming one with every living beings in the upside-down.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

​@@mike_theskinny8646мне кажется это существо с самого начала хочет править мирами

[@lucabeni1994]

I loved the Mind Flayer, it looked like a hive mind and pure chaos at the same time during the 2nd season. It was beyond human comprehension even if it clearly had some kind of plan. Honestly Vecna looks like a one-episode's Buffy The Vampire Slayer's villain compared to it Imo

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

yES I'M AGREE 😱

[@scoposteve8470]

I got some good news for you. The Mind Flayer has been in control this entire time. Vecna was flayed since he was a kid. It wasn’t even Henry that killed his family it was the mind flayer. Vecna didn’t even give him his shape

[@DevineAbyss]

@@scoposteve8470 Sadly enries hand gesture while "forming" the mind flayer makes this unlikely. I would have liked your way so much better. A 50 meter high giant shadow spider that controls a lot of minions, wants to conquer annother world, mind control people across dimensions and rules his own dimension is so much cooler than ... random powerhungry teenager that becomes ugly.

[@scoposteve8470]

@@DevineAbyss it was confirmed by the last shadow

[@DevineAbyss]

@@scoposteve8470 The shadow told us a story? (:

[@Morales3088]

My theory is the Mindflayer already existed and had lost a his form in other world's conquests. When Henry arrived he gave him a new form and the mindflayer helped him to open a portal to the normal world, first using the demogorgon. When It failed, the mindflayer decided to intervene himself, but he failed (twice) so vecna started a new plan that involved his direct actions. But after all he failed as well. I believe the mindflayer's plan is to use vecna (or help him) so that he opens a gate between worlds and then, the world Will be his.

[@jacobtennyson9213]

I agree

[@Columbusss]

i believe that both vecna and the mind flayer will be active threats in season 5

[@jacobtennyson9213]

@@Columbusss Of course they are.

[@tnekdale6822]

Eleven: Are...are you working for the Mind Flayer? One: No. The Mind Flayer's working for me.

[@jacobtennyson9213]

You mean One: I am working for the Mind -Flayer

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

😂😂😂

[@goldenguest778the_real]

More accurately, One would've said "No, i made the Mind Flayer"

[@The-Jai-5328]

No. I AM the Mind Flayer

[@sambreyer7344]

Yeah it’s so lame

[@flavioerick9817]

It's really cool that the upside down before Henry arrived was just a orange'ish wasteland with creatures which had no notable purpose of it's existence, but after Henry shaped the Mind Flayer and stabilished himself as the "God" of the Upside Down, the place became Hawkins and the orange'ish bright place became a dark red'ish place (sorry for grammar English is not my mother language)

[@varric]

The Upside Down becomes Hawkins when Eleven opened the portal for a second time.

[@jacobtennyson9213]

The Upside Down was once a Earth- like paradise until the shadow particles and it's democreatures came in the destroyed it. And so the rest of parallel Hawkins.

[@amanrathore1456]

​@@jacobtennyson9213 But how they travel through othr universe means there are many othr universe to

[@jacobtennyson9213]

@@amanrathore1456 ... So far we do not know where the Mind Flayer and it's democreatures came from. There is a possibility that they could be created by some dimensional alien beings to serve their purpose. But The Mind Flayer once in a form of shadow particles become self aware, it attack their creators, created it's democreatures. Then the Mind Flayer and democreatures master space and time by feeding off the energy of it's hosts to create portals big enough for them to pass through to another universe. This event happend a shadow particles and a fewer demogorgons open a small portal to a abandoned town of Kamchamka near a Soviet prison. The Soviets manage to trap and kill some of the demogorgons and a piece of the shadow particles and lock them a thick glass containers. But kept one demogorgon out to feed on the prisoners. Later in Hawkins in a secret lab Dr. Brenner used Eleven to peak into a Soviet spy's mind. She ended up making psychic contact with a demogorgon. This cause the demogorgon to make contact with another demogorgon and Mind Flayer in the Upside Down to open a portal to Hawkins and it even invaded the lab, attack and eat the scientists. Eleven quickly escaped and so did the demogorgon. Later the demogorgon made contact with Will Byers, took him to the Upside Down and was connected to the Vines of Vecna to collect his energy to that Mind Flayer, it's democreatures and Vecna can pass through to Earth. Later After Will was rescued and the essence of the Mind Flayer was defeated at the Battle of Starcourt Mall, Eleven immediately closed the portal preventing the Mind Flayer, it's democreatures and Vecna from entering Earth.

[@tee1500]

Amazing English !

[@briang.2218]

I think of the Vecna-Mind Flayer dynamic as something comparable to Sauron-and-the-Ring: irrevocably intertwined such that one is the concentrated source of the other's power, but also distinctive entities such that Sauron feared the Ring might be used by others to become rival dark lords -- perhaps we'll see that the Mind Flayer is closer to an embodiment of the deep-rooted malevolence Vecna felt for humanity and so is in perfect harmony with Vecna without itself being literally the same consciousness as Vecna (beyond serving as his means of interfacing with the hive mind of the Upside Down ecosystem).

[@aliahpersonous2893]

Since seeing this, I’ve been thinking of the Mindflayer more as a giant animal, or mass of animals. Kinda like the purple blob in Made In Abyss.

[@ΚωνσταντίνοςΚατσίμπελης]

Maybe the mind flayer is a living colony as one organisation there are a lot of animal colonies as one organisation on earth but in this dimension there are in a form of cloud and they use their mind control in order to catch their prey but when Henry came to the upside down he used it to control it's fauna as one hive

[@LinkH-w5c]

Except Sauron was the most boring villain ever

[@thirdcoinedge]

My guess is that the Mind Flayer was just some amorphous intelligence in the Upside Down, thriving and existing safely within the domains of its realm. Then Vecna came along, and shaped it in his anger, spite, and pride into a being that would suit his desire for conquest. The abyss by itself is not a threat - only when it is molded by the evils of man.

[@BigBootyDuty]

@@thirdcoinedge It's actually an extremely hostile entity that took over that dimension, and seeks to conquer others. Vecna is nothing more than a weapon at it's disposal, a pawn in it's grand scheme. It's not "Sauron and The Ring", it's "Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine".

[@Xer405]

I see the mind flayer like aku from samurai jack. Originally mindless and purposeless until formed into a conscious being later on by an outside force.

[@Epsa_]

There’s another piece of it out there, would be cool if El shaped it.

[@rashmiagarwal8297]

Well that would be very interesting.

[@thatonechilldude3836]

But it bends to her will

[@truebreakage9003]

Where's the other piece

[@Epsa_]

@@truebreakage9003 it escaped from the Soviet base

[@jacobtennyson9213]

Yes, one escape from Kamchatka Prison in Russia and other is still in the body of Will Byers.

[@SuspiciouslyGroomedPegasus]

From what I understand the upside down was once a weird, but somewhat peaceful place that was just inhabited by creatures that mostly kept to themselves. Until one entered it and then he corrupted it with his vison creating the mind flayer out of those cosmic energies

[@jacobtennyson9213]

Yes, the Upside Down used to be a paradise until the Mind-Flayer and it's democreatures destroyed it and moved on to the next world.

[@jamescheddar4896]

peaceful cosmic empire ruled by an overmind who'd aeon's since conquered it

[@I_Am_Darkseid]

Which begs the question of how long has the upside down been there and why does it exist? Where did it come from?

[@jamescheddar4896]

@@I_Am_Darkseid quantum superposition of dreams

[@fizzy69o.0]

Well it confirms Vecna's statement about humans being a unique type of pest that keeps "poisoning our world, all while enforcing a structure of their own. A deeply.... unnatural structure"

[@Pezs2002]

Vecns didn't create the mindflayer he gave it a shape the mindflayer was always the hivemind of everything making a symbiotic relationship with the mindflayer he also made one with will only in hawkins also this has to be my favorite scene

[@MajesticLawnGnome]

Yeah he helped shape the mindflayer into what he saw in his mind they are like buddies or something pretty scary there are too big bosses these guys are gonna have to take down

[@mikandstuff3119]

It says it in the dialogue. Consider the mind flayer as henry’s second form. They are the same entity.

[@immagical7036]

I think its more of a forced cooperation that Henry/001/Vecna created with The Mind Flayer

[@jacobtennyson9213]

That is correct.

[@Itsyaboymega4537]

@@mikandstuff3119 😭they are not please I'm tired of seeing the same shit. Vecna said that because they had a symbiotic relationship and that's why he saw the mind flayer as his second form. I'm so bloody tired because of these shitty tiktok level theories man😭 I swear to god one day y'all gonna be saying that eleven was the mastermind😭

[@arusharma8783]

If there’s someone looking for those fascinating scenes like me and came to the vid :) I got time stamps for u 0:19 look of the upside down 1:13 the darkness of the upside down 1:27 creation of the mind flayer I 1:42 creation of the mind flayer II 2:01 the mind flayer

[@neemahbethea9328]

I don't like the Vacna plot that much. I found the mind flayer to be a scarier antagonist because it was less humane. Humans fear the unnatural. The mind flayer was a giant dark entity. It was terrifying, and I loved it. But now that vecna is behind everything. It's not as scary anymore. He looks more like a human. He sounds like a human. We know his motive. That's what makes the fear go away.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

I'm agree!!

[@fizzy69o.0]

I disagree, Vecna is much better villain cuz he has interesting personality, motives and worldview. Meanwhile Mind Flayer is, just like u said, a giant dark entity but thats basically all it is so thats why it functions great as Vecna's minion while he's the mastermind. Besides the fact Vecna is human makes it more disturbing cuz obv the humans can be much more evil than paranormal beings and stuff like that

[@neemahbethea9328]

@@fizzy69o.0 True. But in terms of disturbing, I find it disturbing to not know an evil person's motive. That concept dives deeper into the fear of the unknown. Like most people's fear of the dark. They're not afraid of the dark. They're just afraid because they don't know what's there. The mind flayer is more mysterious than Vecna. Once we came across Vecna and learned how he came to be, we no longer have to question anything at all. We know the threat which lowers the amount of fear someone has. It's worse when you don't know anything about your enemy.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

@@fizzy69o.0 💀 and I don’t agree with you, just admit that FOR YOU a 40 year old burnt man is better than a powerful god-like creature who knows how old but maybe about a hundred million, Vecna ​​is just a henchman himself like Stan Ford from Gravity Falls, and The mind flayer is Bill Cipher , and about the fact that, like, Man is the most evil, this is a very hackneyed topic, everyone knows this, and so, do you even know how many films I have reviewed where most people say that man is the most evil? this is very annoying, that's why I want "Stranger things" to be more different from all the others, because here this Vecna ​​person thinks that he controls everything here, but in fact this creature turned out to be smarter than him at times.

[@fizzy69o.0]

@@AgOti-ZaDrOtI that comparison is completely wrong, Cipher has personality unlike Mind Flayer and Stan isnt even a villain, not to mention his personality is nothing like Vecna's. How can you even be annoyed by the fact that humans are the most evil creatures? Thats just the way it is and yea there's plenty of movies, shows etc which include that topic ofc. Mind Flayer was never smarter than Vecna, it was barely even sentient (or myb it wasnt sentient at all) before Vecna started controlling it

[@setucket]

Man brought his OC to life lmao

[@陆惠英]

Least we got to respect him, normally if people bring their oc to life they would likely marry and have sex with them. Vecna just wanted to use his to destroy humanity.

[@nonnie2smoove]

@@陆惠英 what?

[@prod.bryant_]

@@陆惠英 mind flayussy

[@Lil_3ezy4222]

@@prod.bryant_ omg lol

[@JuJu_Thegreat]

@@陆惠英what part of youre brain are you ripping this info from-

[@JoeBegin1558]

This season was so epic. It told the complete story. Absolutely brilliant writing.

[@uvl.g5611]

I was so conflicted on this. On the hand, the visual sequence is beautiful, and the concept of one shaping primordial darkness into the mind flayer was cool. But on the other hand, it completely destroys the whole theme of the Mind Flayer. If his one's creation, he can't be the unknown eldritch terror he was showcased as. He was meant to be an incomprehensible horror from a parallel reality, an infection that devours dimension after dimension.

[@Worldwartwohorrors]

Exactly. They destroyed the mystery and fear with vecna

[@JuJu_Thegreat]

Verna shaped that Smoke into the mind flayer. Not created.

[@sambreyer7344]

Yeah but it’s still lame. The mindflayer looked so cool and alien, turns out it’s all just a fabrication of some dude

[@uvl.g5611]

@Blu-grey Doesn't matter. It still destroyed everything that was good about it. Let me explain, They established the mind flyer as this grand alien world ending entity, a dark, unknown force of nature. Those kinds of all-powerful antagonists only work so long as they remain mysterious looming shadow. The power and curiosity they invoke in the viewer all depend on them being unknown, unsolved, and pretty much open for the viewer to both wonder and project his own ideas on them. It's basically the same thing people love about cryptids. It's the unsolved mystery of the unseen monster in the dark that they love. So long as it's unknown, it's unlimited, and it can be anything. Furthermore, it's the unspecified powers or goals of those antagonistic monsters that give them an edge. They only manage to be an imposing dread so long as they're kept in the dark, the moment you flip the lights on, they lose all their towering frightening aspects, and are reduced to an earthly limited monster. Basically, it's an illusion.

[@AnOriginalBreakfast]

good news! The First Shadow means that you have nothing to worry about. it confirms that the Mind Flayer is still a lovecraftian energy, still in control, and very much the main villain

[@riskyproductions6563]

Tbh I like the Mind Flayer more than Vecna and I kind of wish the Mind Flayer was still behind it all and the big brains not Vecna (Like Dustin said, Vecna is just the Mind Flayers 5 star general) It's still possible that the Mind Flayer is still top dog lol and separate from Vecna bc we haven't really gotten a full cannon explanation... I mean Vecna/01 just saw a bunch of black particles and shaped it into what it is so there's a chance that Vecna is working for the Mind Flayer (highly unlikely) but whatever that's just my opinion

[@jimmyjohn9564]

It's a possibility but at the same time we now know that Vecna shaped the mindflayer and now has full control over it cause Vecna(Henry) was the one who sent the mind flayer after Eleven. Vecna was always there from the start from Season 1 and he's admitted to doing all the killings such as Barb's. So in reality the Mind Flayer was Vecna the whole time

[@riskyproductions6563]

@@jimmyjohn9564 sadly I agree and think that's true

[@goldenguest778the_real]

The black smoke cloud was just the "brain" of the Upside Down, but then Vecna corrupted it, creating the Mind Flayer, by corrupting the brain, he also corrupted the creatures of the Upside Down, so i believe that once Vecna is defeated for good, the Upside Down's brain will return to its original state, along with all the creatures that live in the Upside Down

[@nausicaaa___]

It doesn't make any sense at the end to reveal that Vecna ​​was just a Mind Flayer "soldier" who was following orders. A human who transcended his human form struck me as more impactful. Furthermore, the idea of ​​the Mind Flayer being a creature that thinks for itself from another dimension was a Dustin analogy in season two that was used from one of the D&D books and no one really knew the truth.

[@martinpereira7624]

Men eleven said it was you it was always you, get over it please

[@oblivenator100]

bro got turned into a spider 💀💀💀💀

[@Createanew0]

That shadow is probably wondering why he became a spider for no reason

[@jacobtennyson9213]

@@Createanew0 Because Vecna gave the Mind Flayer its form.

[@valenanashe7523]

Bro why i am a fucking spider I was just chilling bro,You could turn me in to a idk a bird But a fucking spider nah man

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

The Mind Flayer: spider man, spider man

[@jacobtennyson9213]

Henry Creel formed the MF a.k.a. the shadow to a spider-like creature from the childhood home when collected spiders in the attic.

[@masterimaginariumdooblepop7592]

From what I have read, Henry gained his power in a way similar to the kids from the movie Chronicle, he came into contact with something that gave him telepathic and telekinetic powers. That thing happened to be a piece of the Mind Flayer. Then when he entered the proto-Upside Down which was just a parallel dimension like countless others, he discovered the Mind Flayer and gave it form, function and purpose. I like that, the idea that Vecna and the Mind Flayer created each other. I also like the element that the creatures on the other side weren't malevolent but simply minding their own business before Vecna, a human, came along and conscripted these extra dimensional beings into his war on humanity. That is very Lovecraftian, the idea that these creatures aren't malicious or dangerous unless people mess with them.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

you have a very interesting idea without sarcasm, but I think that the mind flayer and other creatures were evil before, ask why I think so? I think this is logical, because in most TV series and movies such creatures are made evil because they want to take over humanity or the planet, it seems to me the mind flayer plays a big role as an invader, like he had previously absorbed or captured worlds and wants ours, it seems to me the mind flayer had many different forms but after that as he captured them, he lost his shape absorbing the world, and this time he decided to take Henry so that he could help shape the mind flayer and open the gate

[@BigBootyDuty]

Yes on the first part, no on the second. He didn't give it form, function or purpose. Vecna has been flayed since he entered it's dimension when he was a child, and it completely altered his body chemistry. The Mind Flayer is an extremely hostile entity and it's only goals is to spread/destroy/conquer. This isn't a "humans are the real evil" story, it's a "curiosity killed the cat and unleashed a lovecraftian dark god upon all life in the universe" story.

[@StuckonStupid84]

@@BigBootyDuty I'm calling bullshit on that last part.

[@BigBootyDuty]

@@StuckonStupid84 I mean you can, but it's confirmed true. lol

[@Skylaverse]

For everyone saying Vecna didn’t create The Mind Flayer, he did! While he didn’t create the cloud of dark particles, he did create The Mind Flayer’s purpose & motive. Without Vecna, The Mind Flayer would’ve never been a threat in the first place.

[@axolotl8876]

No THE mind flayer created THE uppside down and THE demegorons and made 001 into vecna

[@AmericanLegendd]

@@axolotl8876 keep crying

[@jameskramer9871]

@@AmericanLegendd he did not create it though

[@collinherrin4596]

@@jameskramer9871 you literally see him form the mind flayer. Yes the upside down and dark particles existed prior but one made them into the the mind flayer and in turn they turned him into vecna. It’s not that hard to comprehend.

[@jameskramer9871]

@@collinherrin4596 I know he formed him but didn’t create him

[@CrystalMinecraftPvp]

Mind flayer: *”I definitely wasn’t listening to k-pop while you were gone”*

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

😂😂😂😂omg

[@Itsyaboymega4537]

I'm so happy that the mind flayer was the one who was really in control all this time. People after this scene tought that vecna created the flayer and he controlled it. Which is now proven false because of the new st stageplay about vecna. It shows that the mind flayer technically gave vecna his powers.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

Yes:3

[@demogorgon2142]

no?

[@HellfireClubLegacy]

After Stranger Things: The First Shadow, we already know that Vecna ​​is not the real villain, the Mind Flayer is.

[@StuckonStupid84]

If it didn't happen on the show, it didn't happen at all.

[@BigBootyDuty]

@@StuckonStupid84 It's written by the people who make the show and will be adapted partially into Season 5.

[@davidbrunner6636]

Is the first shadow cannon?

[@HellfireClubLegacy]

@@davidbrunner6636 yes

[@BigBootyDuty]

@@StuckonStupid84 It's gonna happen in Season 5. lol The writers of the First Shadow write for the show.

[@immagical7036]

*(The following lil scenario is to be interpreted as the moment when this actually happened not during the flashback we see)* 1:06 (Henry/001/Vecna appears on the ridge) *Mind Flayer:* “Hey.. what the frick are you?? Wh-what are you doing, stop that!!” (Henry/001/Vecna reaches hand and shapes Mind Flayer into a physical embodiment of his drawing) *Mind Flayer:* “jeez what the heck dude, why you gotta turn me into your spidery god complex” *Henry/001/Vecna:* “haha Spider go brr”

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

😂😂😂

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

Я бы очень хотел увидеть как в 5 сезоне этот же паук его раздавит:)

[@immagical7036]

Haha me too (god I’m so glad for the translate feature ;w;)

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

@@immagical7036 ^^❤

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

​@@immagical7036 честно признаться мне очень нравится Mind Flayer, и я не хочу чтоб такого интересного существа сливали, он способен на гораздо большее, мне очень интересно узнать о нём побольше 😮

[@OKFANUMTMTMG]

He didnt create it he just formed him

[@elliseulalio7262]

YES !

[@randaboy3601]

Well sort of he was one who made mind flayer who is and evil inside him

[@captaindexpool3192]

I mean, he made it a living being, so yes, he created it out of cosmic energy

[@solarcosmoss0777]

@@captaindexpool3192 What the hell is cosmic energy. He just looked at him and said "spiders are rad" then boom.

[@captaindexpool3192]

@@solarcosmoss0777 idfk how else would you name that

[@Jenniferrr2014]

Season 2 - 3: dimension-conquering shadow thing with unclear intentions and origin Season 4: "its my oc :3"

[@jacobtennyson9213]

Yes, The Mind Flayer is using Will Byers' body to gain more energy to opening portals to Earth. That is in seasons one and two. Season's two and three, The Mind Flayer is using Billy Hargrove's body and other victims in order for the Mind Flayer to make its own body and appear on Earth. While in the meantime, The Soviets were using a Nuclear Powered Laser Drill to open the portal to the Upside Down secretly under a shopping mall. Season 4 The Mind Flayer send its Five Star General named Vecna (Henry Creel) to capture 4 teens who are in their misery by using their darkest fears along with spiders and clocks to collect their spiritual energy strong enough to let the Mind Flayer and it army of democreatures into Earth. He finally did it.

[@YourDiee]

🚨SPOILERS ALERT🚨 He didn’t create it, he’s possessed and cursed by it since 1959 when he had been missing for 12 hours its info from st play in Phoenix theatre. He got powers during this 12 hours NOT in the Upside Down, it was called Dimension X. So Henry just the victim and marionette in hands of mind flayer dang I can’t believe this…

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

0_0 omg 😰😰😰

[@JuJu_Thegreat]

No he didn’t, that was just a play. They changed his backstory in it.

[@YourDiee]

@@JuJu_Thegreat Play is officially part of Henry’s story in ST. He hadn’t any huge backstory, we just know that he killed his fam, that he likes spiders, and when he only 1 time in series went to dimension X, he gave the form to the Mind Flayer. Now we know, he’s started doing all bad things since he was possessed. Henry was the most ordinary child, who wanted to love, to communicate with others, and only his missing changed him.

[@jacobtennyson9213]

Henry Creel was born with his powers. His parents released his psy powers so they moved to Hawkins, Ind. Henry was thinking since humans are busy clockwork animals and spiders. He decided to kill his parents,his little sister. Later Henry was taken by Dr.Brenner to his care, using his DNA to develop spy power children. Later Henry was abused by Dr. Brenner for letting one of the psy powered children loose. Henry tried to let eleven escape, she also took the detector off his neck. And used to control psy powers to defeat Dr. Brenner's security guards. When Henry and Eleven went to the room. He explained that humans must be destroyed and spiders must rule the Earth. Eleven won't let him do it. As they both used the powers to repel one other. Eleven used her powers to open a portal to pull Henry to the Upside Down world. When his a desolate landscape, orange sky, hungry scavenge demogorgon and shadow particles in the sky. Henry Creel became Vecna and used his powers to give the Mind Flayer a form of a spider -like creature.

[@YourDiee]

@@jacobtennyson9213 bro u almost said everything right but u missed all details from “The First Shadow”. From that play we know, that Henry got his powers after being in Dimension X for 12 hours. The thing that gives powers is DNA X. And he is not bad person. Henry Creel is normal. His mind poisoned by mind flayer that’s it. Mind flayer created the form to himself by using Henry and powers he got.

[@EthanIlchert]

Hey guys got some bad news, apparently a Stage Play of Stranger Things did a retcon of Vecna's backstory and made him a victim of the mind flayer and gave him a sympathetic backstory, taking away everything that him an irredeemably evil villain.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

This is cool! I'm love mind flayer❤

[@StuckonStupid84]

Freddy Kruger had a sympathetic backstory and he's still pure evil. That doesn't change much. I bet that Henry would've still turned evil anyway. Also, if it didn't happen in the show, it didn't happen at all.

[@jacobtennyson9213]

That may happen in season 5 when the Mind Flayer becomes a Dragon called Borys.

[@JAMON.GIBSON]

I wish they could have left the mind flayer as it’s own entity. Season 4 would have been fine without Vecna. They added this mechanic where he needed 3 kills to open the gate then I don’t understand why he wasn’t doing it from the beginning if that was his goal. Would have liked it if they left it as a unknown dimension trying to conquer instead of a human with psychic power pulling strings.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

fact bro, I don't like it either, the mind flayer for me is a powerful cosmic god who captures planets, but they decided that this is just a man who is very evil and wants to kill all people, it looks simplistic as if everyone will like it like: oh, exactly the same creature was from another change and the villain is a man

[@MBRSims]

I thought the same thing honestly. Why would Vecna bother with using the Mind Flayer as a proxy and going through that whole plan in a very roundabout way when he could simply do the four sacrifices and open the portal straight away? It seems like there's no reason why he couldn't have done that. Hopefully that will be addressed in Season 5 because it's a bit of a glaring plot hole.

[@linkeron1]

@@MBRSims"Why would Vecna bother with using the Mind Flayer as a proxy and going through that whole plan in a very roundabout way when he could simply do the four sacrifices and open the portal straight away?" Because he wasn't able to do the four sacrifices and open the gates yet . Only Eleven could psychically connect across dimensions. He made the Proxy body so that he could get her power to psychically connect across dimensions and in turn, be able to open gates (And then kill her afterwards with the proxy body but that part failed). The only thing Vecna could do before season 4 was expand the gates like he did with the mothergate in season 2. It's like you completely forgot that Vecna said to Eleven, "All I needed was someone to open the door. And you did that for me. Without even realizing it. Didn't you? And when you did realize, you chose to resist." and then a bit later "So I sought a means to open my own doors. I sought… your power."

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

@@MBRSims the mind flayer didn't create it, it was just given a form, it is a separate being with its own mind, but I don't want to argue with you now since I left this fandom a long time ago and I became interested in another one, ask why? and because to some extent season 4 firstly could not become original, but simply put a cliched villain like Freddy Krueger, this is not called originality and I looked more at the film that copies Freddy Krueger, even the Duffers said they would reveal The mind flayer, but what do we see in the end? Mmm, wow, it turns out to be a powerful, mysterious god from another dimension that everyone is so fond of.. turned out to be the dog of a man with superpowers who looks like Freddy Krueger... so I'm sorry, but I'm leaving this fandom until 2025, so it's not the best idea to argue with the person who left this fandom, and even more so I was here enough, I prescribed the personality of the mind flayer, it took me from the month of May to the beginning of October, I only had to talk about him And to think, I've already thought a lot.. now I have decided to go to another fandom, I just need variety, and I missed other series, thank you for understanding, there may be mistakes since I am from Russia, I wrote through a translator

[@jeanerasmus7]

That thing was already existing. Vecna made it sentient.

[@TheD3mogorgon]

Eleven: "It was you..." Vecna: "It was me, Barr...., uh, Eleven!"

[@ultimatelegend8306]

I want the mind flayer to betray and kill vecna in season 5. By what someone said on reddit. Spoiler btw Quote. "So this will probably be unpopular but this is how i want Vecna to die. So the finale makes us believe that Vecna controles the mind flayer not the other way around right? That the mind flayer was still ancient and always there but as there was never a gate open before, Henry gave it purpose and controlled it. I like to think that the mind flayer is actually playing Vecna. The mind flayer always had a purpose, always knew what it wanted to do, and was waiting for an apportunity. Henry then enters the upside down and the mind flayer realizes this is his chance. So it lets vecna mold it into that spider shape he is so obsessed with, and does what vecna wants it to do, becease it needs vecna to open gates becease it can't do it on it's own. Basically using vecna, making him believe he is the puppet master. But now that the huge gate is open, it doesn't need vecna anymore. I would love if it escapes, enters either monsters (like it enters the demodogs in Russia) or else humans and then mocks Vecna for just being a boy with a childish vendetta against the world. It mocks him for thinking he is the ultimate power and then kills him. And then without vecna, goes on to try to take over the world. Alternatively. Becease it would be satisfying to see El kill him, the mind flayer strips him (vecna) of what he became after he entered the upside down, so he is a vulnenarble human again after mocking him and leaves him to be killed. So El and him can fight one last time but he is (vecna) is still betrayed by the mind flayer." End quote

[@neekoalighire2219]

👏👏👏👏That is the best theory i've heard in years

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

YESS, I'M AGREE 😭❤I'm love mind Flayer

[@lassenker07]

Very good!

[@scoposteve8470]

Turns out this is wrong. Vecna has been flayed since he was a child. He never had control over the mind flayer, he didn’t even shape it. In the First Shadow Henry goes missing in dimension x and he returns with powers and a flayed mind. That’s why he drew the mind flayer. He basically just did was Will did. Hell someone who was asked to draw who attacked them after he got attacked he drew the mind flayer. This was before everything that happened in the season 4 flashbacks

[@jacobtennyson9213]

@@scoposteve8470 .... Look like you did not seen the who show dude. You just saw an episode from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and the Kraang.

[@astrogaming3083]

I'm a bit disappointed by the direction the story has taken, i mean, don't get me wrong, it's good and interesting, but i always hoped that the end story would be a bit more Lovecraft cosmic horror. I mean i found the idea of the Mind Flayer as this completely impossible to comprehend force, that we can't understand, that we can't really beat, much more engaging than it being essentially an extension cord for a superpowered psychopath. I guess i hoped for a more Lovecraft style cosmic horror than this, arguably, more run-of-the-mill revenge plot (it's essentially what it is)

[@sambreyer7344]

Fr bro it was originally this strange thing from another dimension, its motives were alien and unknown. Good news though! The mind Flayer has always been in charge, and basically gifted Vecna his powers. It was confirmed in the stage play.

[@GKViddingHD]

What a nice nod to the classic 'man returns changed from another universe' trope. Gives me strong "From Beyond" vibes.

[@danielwadford3699]

Henry when he first arrived in Hawkins: "I became an explorer." Henry when he first arrived in the Upside Down: "I became an explorer."

[@jacobtennyson9213]

@@danielwadford3699 That is correct. And what he had quoted. Henry Creel actually did explore the Upside Down World in the flash. He saw democreatures scavenging for food. And a Shadow Cloud particles in the sky. Henry Creel sees these particles, raise his hand and used his psy power to give the Mind Flayer the spider- like form.

[@goomalia23]

Well, after Stranger things the first shadow you may wanna change that title

[@KalebTheDuck]

I hate how everyone says that vecna is the man behind it all, the mind flayer was around before vecna, vecna is just a host because the mind flayer doesn't have a body of its own, the mind flayer is probably even controlling vecna, making him do things he doesn't want to, it can do that, vecna only gave him his shape, but the mind flayer was always there, the mind flayer was already intelligent, vecna was only a small part of the puzzle. The mind flayer is the brains, while vecna is the brawn. The mind flayer could even destroy vecna if he wanted to, but he can't because he needs vecna to do most of the work.

[@footballfan283]

He is behind all. I mean the scheme. The mind flayer the way I see it is just a cosmic energy more like the reality stone in the MCU. Basically Vecna weaponized it.

[@KalebTheDuck]

@@footballfan283 if anything, eleven is behind it all, eleven opened the gate, and even if henry was there or not, the mind flayer would still control the demogorgons and be a huge threat, mind flayer didn't need henry, all henry did was give it it's shape.

[@footballfan283]

When I say behind it all I mean the plan. Eleven pretty much confirmed it when she said it was you always you and Vecna nod. Now if I am right or wrong is going to be revealed in the 5th season but the way they present us season 4 shows that the mind flayer is just some energy and Henry harness it’s power and weaponized it

[@KalebTheDuck]

@@footballfan283 what I'm saying is, the mind flayer didn't need vecna at all, the mind flayer could've been better off without vecna, the mind flayer is still just as powerful as vecna is, maybe even more powerful, all vecna did was gave it the spider shape, that's all. And henry didn't harness it's powers, again he just gave it it's shape, and vecna wasn't the one who possessed will, the mind flayer did, the mind flayer also possessed henry and made him dangerous too, vecna is literally nothing compared to the mind flayer, the mind flayer is probably controlling vecna, we won't know until season 5 though.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

​@@KalebTheDuck I'm agree😱

[@JacksonJDoyel]

Honestly I think Vecna is being played by the flayer - it allowed him to use it as a tool to spread and colonize - the upside down was probably once like Earth, until something from their realm similar to Vecna and eleven, brought it over. I don't think the flayer thinks or feels, I think it is functioning like a wild animal: just spreading and consuming dispassionately. At leas that's what I hope - having the villain just be a narcissistic psychopath is a bit of a let down imo. If you look at the ground when Vecna walks up to the flayer - you can see human-like appendages covered in the weird upside down biomass. Other pawns. Vecna thinks he is in control, but he's exactly wha the kids called him: a lieutenant under orders.

[@alizaheer9123]

No matter what good or bad choices they make with this show I just find it simply better to enjoy story’s for what they are and not what you hoped they’d be. This should be everyone’s mindset whether you like what the duffer brothers do or not.

[@obsessedgremlin]

Agreed

[@irondan5769]

I expected there to be a musical clip called "Vecna all along"

[@jacobtennyson9213]

NOPE

[@bryanvargas5478]

He didn’t create the mind flayer he created its form. the mind Flayer was already there. He just never had a form until he got there.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

Yes

[@ndongengone7284]

JUST as many have already suggested in the comments, the character of Dustin since the beginning of the series until now has always been the one that the showrunners have used to explain to the viewer the lore of Stranger Thing. And until now he has never really been deceived. The showrunners for some reason wanted Dustin to let us know that Vecna ​​is the head general of the Mind Flayer. Why would the character that showrunners usually use to give us bricks of answers about what's happening in the story come out with something like that???? The Duffers brothers don't do anything at random, especially since this scene was clearly highlighted to underline a fact that we wanted the viewer to remember and keep in the back of his mind. Look at the scene again, and you will understand that this information is not trivial. Which leads me to believe that there will be a twist in the situation between Henry aka Vecna ​​and the Mind Flayer. I don't know why or how, but something makes me say that the Mind Flayer used Vecna ​​intelligently to achieve his ends. From the moment a door opened between the real world and the Upside Down, Mind Flayer realized that there is another world to conquer. On the other hand, I have the impression that the Mind Flayer will abandon Vecna ​​for his own ambitions. When Vecna ​​needs his creation the most to save his ass, he will sadly realize that what he thought was his creation actually has its own will and ambitions. I remain firmly convinced that Dustin's assertion is not innocuous.

[@javinshki17000]

I FUCCKING LOVE giant shadow monsters

[@justnahayo8490]

Peak scene OMG. Get chills everytime I rewatch this

[@hellomate2405]

Funnily every season has this same generic idea. Eleven comes up shows her powers and then gets immediately beaten up, giving time to build up the story and her motivation and then she starts screaming, hands up in the air and eyes bleeding.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

By the way, yes, this is quite unusual, I didn't notice it myself until you said 🤔

[@FluffyLuffyfriend]

Yayy we will see mind flayer in Season 5 i missed him so much

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

Me too 😭😭😭❤❤❤❤❤

[@akhilgogineni7792]

“A means to transcend my human form” that line gives the vibe that the mind flayer is an avatar for Vecna. Htg, this scene opens a lot of plot holes for the series. Leaving the mind flayer is the main antagonist and finding an alternative role for One coulda been better.

[@Kablowshky]

I agree

[@philippeblais8594]

Yeah. Initially I thought One just saw the mind flayed and it manifested itself in it's true form. And one reached out to it.

[@nausicaaa___]

But the Mind Flayer IS an avatar for Henry and I honestly liked that.

[@jacobtennyson9213]

And that's why Vecna because be a twisted vine like freak.

[@scoposteve8470]

@@nausicaaa___ that’s incorrect. Henry has been flayed since he was a kid

[@cashthecurator666]

I honestly don’t mind this. Vecna is a way more intimidating villain because he’s basically a mixture between Satan and the Bogeyman. The Mind Flayer is cool, but he wasn’t as compelling. He was just a generic doomsday villain in comparison. Vecna has a lot more personality, and the fact that the dude is basically the walking embodiment of trauma who tortured his victims mentally and emotionally before he finally goes for the kill makes him even more evil. And in my opinion, this doesn’t contradict anything Dustin said about the Upside Down. Vecna didn’t create it, he just poisoned it, if you will.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

|^ твоё мнение

[@sartbimpson9929]

Based

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

​@@sartbimpson9929and as I see my comments make you angry, since you often answer me, and what difference does it make to you after how many years I still talk about it? people are still discussing it even after a year, if it bothers you, then I advise you not to get angry or else burst, even there are no arguments and evidence that The mind flayer is Vecna, YOU PROVE IT, I have already proved many times that these are separate beings and The mind flayer is much better, you're just a little one who can't justify your opinion, so you can leave once there are no normal words and believe what you see and tell everyone that you are right 🤔

[@demogorgon2142]

For y’all who are confused: Mind Flayer and Henry = Venom and Eddie

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

😂😂😂😂⭐

[@StuckonStupid84]

Basically yeah. Vecna is essentially like Freddy Krueger in the sense that their past may have caused them to become what they are, but they're still pure evil. Their actions are irredeemable and even if they hadn't been brought up as they did, they would probably go bad anyway.

[@vv1034]

YO! You gotta see the comparison between vecna and will. They are somehow connected and i think in s5 will’s gonna have a major role in defeating them.

[@Epsa_]

And their drawings of the flayer are similar.

[@vv1034]

@@Epsa_ yeahh ikr

[@samuelault4723]

@@Epsa_ will made that drawing when he was possessed by the mind flayer (Vecna) so that’s why he knew what it looked like

[@13Xerro]

Will could very well have a major roll in defeating him, similarly I imagine Max will have a big role in closing the gate linked to its opening as she is.

[@dadislow]

The duffers confirmed will is going to be a main part and focus of season 5 and he’s gonna play a major role

[@이동연-c6d]

He is just like Darth Vader….

[@jacobtennyson9213]

You mean a Freddy Krueger reject.

[@alexlavell3986]

I can’t help but wonder: if this is supposed to be the upside down before 001 came in, what caused it to go from a bright yellowish setting to damn near pitch black darkness? Did Vecna use his powers to change the atmosphere, or did the place change on its own due to his influence on the realm?

[@JuJu_Thegreat]

Nah. The upside down copies everything from the top. So the place where vecna came was prob a desert cuz dr Brenner’s lab is in a desert. So the dark shadowy place was probaly only a thing that happend in Hawkins.

[@patrickspencer6550]

This is just like The Matrix Revolutions. When Neo (The One) explored the Machine City, he was blinded but he could see everything in golden light, even though the Machine City was blue just like the Upside Down.

[@jacobtennyson9213]

Close to the Matrix. But Vecna is not the The One is going to save humanity. He wants to destroy humanity.

[@Fitchy-ke3wz]

The upside down was just a place, just a place, and the mind flayer was its brain. Vecna gave it shape and his motive but he had no way of affecting the "rightside up".... Until 11 opened the gate that shaped the upside down into a reflection of the right-side up and then the series begins with the demogorgon

[@scrambledeggboi412]

After playing the VR game. Henry didn't create the mind flayer. But yet gave him shape. Henry is taking orders from someone else

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

Really? Interesting 🤔

[@ahamaan4017]

My theory is same. And that someone is Borys. Remember what Nancy said. She saw a giant monster. And Borys in DnD a intelligent dragon shaped human sorcerer. Stronger than Vecna.

[@The-Jai-5328]

This gives me chills every time I watch it

[@jacobtennyson9213]

There are more Mind Flayer scenes in the Stranger Things than Vecna.

[@goldenguest778the_real]

Well, since Vecna was controlling the Mind Flayer all along, they both have technically the same number of scenes

[@jacobtennyson9213]

@@goldenguest778the_real ... Where is your proof? For starters Dustin says that Vecna is the Mind-Flayer's five star general.

[@jacobtennyson9213]

We are not sure about Vecna control the Mind Flayer. The only way to find out is on season 5.

[@FillySella]

Ngl, finding out that the mind flayer was just No.1 was such a boner killer, all the mystery of this vague terrifying monster, then it just turned out to be an edgelord sook

[@FBI049]

It crazy how vecnas creation becomes stronger than him

[@jacobtennyson9213]

Vecna's formation. Like he set it free from it's sky prison.

[@chad6472]

The rest of this show is going to be wild.

[@mohammadkaosari5291]

Honestly i believe the mind flayer was always god of the upside down and henry just formed him but if its true. Vecna really did create the mind flayer then i don't really like that cause in my opinion the mind flayer seems more godlike to me edit: so it looks like he didn't create the particles but he did give a purpose

[@jacobtennyson9213]

You mean Vecna formed the Mind Flayer. He didn't created it.

[@jayus_]

‼️SPOILER (NOT IN SEASON 4) ‼️Technically, vecna is lying, he got lost there before Hawkins for 12 hours (stranger things the first shadow) it was called Dimension X and that’s where he got his powers. There are recaps of the play you can find on KZbin it explains more, or you can wait to see if it’s in season 5, or if the play gets put on Netflix.

[@Abhishek-nq1uj]

S5 - Eleven vs Mind flayer 🔥

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

😍😍😍I'm love mind Flayer

[@sputnik8543]

Gonna be interesting s5 - anyone whose read the plot for the prequel play currently on show in LDN ‘the first shadow’ knows we still got a lot to learn about Henry and all things concerned

[@callumbaillie58]

In my opinion it plays out something like this Vecna/Henry/One is like a Warlock and the Mind Flayer is his Patron. When Henry comes to the upside down he finds the Mind Flayer and makes a deal with it. Henry gets more power and can get what he wants out of the Earth in return he must conquer Earth for the Mind Flayer. The Mind Flayer then allows Henry to shape it into something he can understand.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

It's so cute😅❤

[@OhmS3456]

“It was me Barry”

[@doctormoobbc]

"if only I could. I'd make a deal with God". Vecna/Henry made his deal with "God" (the particles) to create the mind flayer. The question is, what does the mind flayer want in return?

[@Eveyevy]

i dunno, freedom into the rightside up

[@WarpChaos]

Hawkins

[@iconzftw9497]

I don’t think that was intentional

[@doctormoobbc]

@@iconzftw9497 it's just a fun play on the coincidence.

[@iconzftw9497]

@@doctormoobbc the coineicdence being?

[@stephenHolloway88]

The one good thing about this is that he didn't create it which means it isn't his. There has to be a way to take that contol away surely.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

Yes, I'm agree:0

[@sorrenblitz805]

Given that this is the mind flayer, it's more likely that it manipulated Henry into thinking he controlled it but it's the other way around.

[@ryanclark7962]

Nah I feel like the mind flayer is still the bigger villian, it was still a thing when 001 found it, it was just dust particles. 001 just shaped it but didn't create it, and they've worked together so far but I think the mind flayer will turn against him.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

​@@ryanclark7962 me too:0

[@Leviathan-me5qd]

Cool theory: Vecna was given the idea of the mind flayers shape by it through dimensions

[@bayernbayern7552]

I don’t know why but this gives me Thor the dark world vibes with the reality stone.

[@leecarvalho330]

Mindflayer was there before vecna...he dint create it

[@NorscaWolves]

I hate this, the eldritch nature of the mind flayer was incredibly cool. To ruin it as a creation of Vecna just sucks cool from it

[@starioushina901]

Stranger Things Play and VR game reveal that Mind Flayer IS a separate entity and is using Vecna to get into their world.

[@NorscaWolves]

@@starioushina901 that'd make me a lot happier about the story I'd that's Canon

[@TopFusboll]

@@NorscaWolveshonestly season 4 left many things still unanswered. The way we see it here the Mind Flayer is just some cosmic energy and Vecna weaponised it and took control of it.

[@starioushina901]

@@NorscaWolves Should be, since writers were in charge of the play. ;)

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

​@@NorscaWolvesbro, I think the same way, I really like the mind flayer too, nice to see:)

[@amaantariq025]

Let’s hope he doesn’t have an army with him along with the mind flayer

[@devynthomas8988]

Even if Vecna is controlling our favorite Dommy Mommy Mind Flayer, why does he have her make such arousing noises? Like the one at 1:59 for instance?

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

Возможно всё таки он им не управляет

[@devynthomas8988]

@@AgOti-ZaDrOtI Maybe!

[@multiverse-mechagodzilla-3584]

Wait, the mind flayer is a girl???

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

​@@multiverse-mechagodzilla-3584no 😂😂

[@Klawruy]

you gotta be joking💀

[@slackstarfish8133]

Remember when this show was grounded in season 1? Now people are getting conveniently struck by magic lightning to turn into bad guys.

[@slackstarfish8133]

I can’t be the only one who really hated this retcon. The mind flayer was way more scary because of how mysterious it was. It was way more intimidating as a lovecraftian entity. despite what they said, it’s pretty clear that season 4 was just a massive retcon because they didn’t have a good plan. Eleven conveniently losing her memory right before season 1? cmon bro. They probably just didn’t know what the mind flayer was either so they decided to make some dude the villain of the show cuz that’s way easier…and cheaper to film. Season 4 wasn’t a bad piece of TV but I’m baffled it’s so many peoples favorite season. Season 1 is just by far the best. And yeah season 2 had the worst episode of the show but as a whole it was still extremely good and some of the best of stranger things.

[@justnahayo8490]

Nah I don’t mind it

[@slackstarfish8133]

@@justnahayo8490yes you do, remember

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

❤

[@Alector360]

Its so fucking crazy, that it was all him from the start, he created the mind flayer, he planned it in seasons 2 & 3 and now this omg mind blowing

[@Alector360]

@電話 oh

[@jimmyjohn9564]

Yea he didn't create it he shaped it but at the same time Vecna had full control over the Mind flayer cause remember Dustin said that Vecna is like the mind flayers 5 Star General the one who does all the commands

[@jacobtennyson9213]

Alector, It's not true! Vecna shaped the Mind Flayer. If you have seen the flashback scene of season 4 of Stranger Things, Vecna explained to Eleven that when he inside the Upside Down he reached out his right hand to the shadow particles in the sky, uses his powers to form the spider-like creature based on his drawings from his childhood.

[@zaygaston7707]

I had this feeling he probably create the mind flayer because on episode 7 he was talking about spider being the god of our world then that click to it was just a theory into now

[@Mr.Sa33]

He didn’t create him he just formed him into what he is now

[@Jaden-lg5cn]

@@Mr.Sa33 And also transferred his consciousness into it giving it his motives/power.If it was wasn't for Vecna/001 the mind flayer wouldn't even be a threat.

[@Jaden-lg5cn]

@@Mr.Sa33 Vecna is in control of the mind flayer.

[@Mr.Sa33]

@@Jaden-lg5cn right but if he was then? How come he was attacking max and the mind flayer was just doing his own thing

[@Mr.Sa33]

@@Jaden-lg5cn that could be true because the mind flayer does have a mind of his own kinda but not really.

[@shaunlee3508]

When i was 7 i had a head cannon that vecna was the mind flayer, I KNEW IT

[@gabrielkrows488]

I'm just confused as to why the upside down is yellow now.

[@TopFusboll]

Actually he didn’t create the mind flayer he just weaponized it

[@originalunoriginal4055]

"explorer of a realm unspoilt by mankind" *First day in the world, and disturbs it's peace and structure

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

IMHO I still love this series, I'm looking forward to season 5, I found out about it back in January last year and fell in love with it, because I really love science fiction, I hope the Mind Flayer will be returned in season 5, since he still remains the main pure evil, and besides, I adore him, this mystery ... This Lovecraftian ... At the expense of season 4, he went to me, in principle, I put 7/10 the only negative is that the villain is not scary, not interesting, not handsome (although in human appearance is pretty cool man) because this is a villain ala "Freddy Krueger" literally, although at first he seemed to me a burnt Thanos, to be honest, I was not interested in watching such a villain, I was more interested in the fact that demogorgons were grown in a Russian prison, and I was so happy that I saw the Mind Flayer there in the form of intelligent dust, that he was alive and well, and such an audience that says: oh, this is the same thing, he created it, why you defend the mind flayer, Vecna king he are cooler, etc... it really infuriates me very much, for me they are different, and 001 only gave him a form, and the flayer, even when he was a 001 child, he inspired him and tried to contact him, and it seems to me that they have some kind of symbiotic relationship or they made a deal, but to be honest, season 4 became almost a horror movie in the style of Freddy Krueger and others similar, I always thought and will continue to think that this show will be fantastic for me, besides, Vecna ​​does not look like an outstanding monster, since over the years I have reviewed a bunch of horrors where there were similar villains. is that so?... But the Mind Flayer is very interesting, such an unknown, mysterious creature from which it is not clear what to expect and what he will do, he is quite smart and cunning because he almost caught her in season 3 11, and deprived her of his power, but all the same, since Vecna ​​and the flayer are supposedly allies, then of course they helped each other, although when a huge portal opened at the end of season 4, the flayer will no need a Vecna, he can betray him and crush him, well, what he supposedly says: thank you very much for that trust me, now you no longer need a pathetic smug person. Something like this, especially since the flayer did it on purpose at the beginning so that Vecna ​​would think that he was in control, but in fact he was not, he only helped a powerful creature to get into our world and capture it, before that, when 001 got into the wrong side, we see that the Mind Flayer was still like that and he was alive and reasonable, how did he still come up with this plan to take over the world, he just inspired 001 with childhood and gave him such an ability, and it seems to me that the Mind Flayer also captured worlds in past times, and perhaps he somehow lost his previous form or was in hibernation so that the form disappeared (well, it was inactive) I just really don’t want such a villain to be leaked that he’s like a dog or Vecna’s pawn, but I see that he’s capable of more, they showed us for 2 whole seasons with him, intrigued, everyone liked him, if the authors wanted to merge such a cool creature, then why should we intrigued by all those seasons? It's kind of stupid, plus I'm amused by the fact that in season 4 they showed a new villain, talked about him, and at the end he just lost, well, that is, he fell out of the house, and then disappeared somewhere, all the same, the Mind Flayer is more interesting, he still doesn’t give up even when there is no chance of winning, my favorite seasons are still 2 and 3, since I still like science fiction more, and horror well in the style of serial murders already somehow tired and that's putting it mildly, in any case, season 4 turned out to be good, interesting, exciting, and very cool, and please stop writing that these entitys are the same, even most people will prefer the main villain an alien creature with powerful and unknown power than a burnt 40-year-old man who looks like Freddy Krueger who just took offense at humanity and received abilities from childhood, and then thanks to the Flayer. And yes, I’ll say it again, I have nothing against Freddy Krueger, it’s just that Vecna ​​is very similar to him. Only he is fatter and I don’t like it at all, it’s like copying a character and making him even uglier and worse, I once loved horror films and still want to love them, but you know, horrors are already all known and what and how and where, and space and alien entitys still have a lot to no know about them, what secret they hide about, of course, if you combine horror and fantasy then it will be sweet, and then not always, because it should be competent, and not like that, all 3 seasons were one fantasy and 4 solid horrors without it, I don’t want to scold this series, I love it very much, I'm it’s just the first time I’ve come across such a thing that everywhere in the comments they argue and swear about this, I’ve seen this a lot, this is some kind of bacchanalia happening, and you can say that I’m defending the Mind Flayer, but maybe it’s true, the Actor who played Vecna ​​and 001 coped with cheers and played very well, I don’t blame him, but here the nitpick is not to the Actor but to the villain of the film, do all you understand me?* P. S *I also want to note that when Billy was controlled, he said "WE" and not "I", Vecna ​​would not purely say that because he seems more selfish, and I also want to note that Vecna ​​clearly did not know that the Torturer's dust in the Russian prison if he knew he would make sure that the dust escapes as soon as possible because it can harm him himself, since people can do experiments with fire on dust. the conclusion is this: they have a symbiotic relationship and they still act differently 🤔

[@jarnold]

Look at the first shadow spoilers I think Vecna is a great character but def not main villain material (because the reason I consider him to be a good character to begin with requires him to not be the main villain haha).

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

​@@jarnold😅 I'm know

[@RoseleneOsagie]

Funny enough the mind flayer is the actual big bad of the story Henry is just is five star general

[@BearKing51]

Eh I wish the mind flayer and vecna were two separate beings

[@burger9708]

Same bro

[@Mr.Sa33]

No they are kinda.

[@keelobrown4991]

Yea super disappointing to make this mysterious cosmic entity into nothing more than vecnas pet. Personally i found the idea of a lovecraftian style elder god to be more interesting than a human whose whole motivation to destroy the world is society bad.

[@axlrosest]

@@keelobrown4991 True

[@doctormoobbc]

@@keelobrown4991 we actually don't know this to be true. It's completely possible Vecna has been deceived. Remember, in S2/S3 the mind flayer didn't recognise El as 11. And Dustin said "Vecna is the mind flayer's 5 star general". I think Vecna is being deceived. What if the ending of S5 is actually to separate the two and Vecna gets betrayed? They're separate beings. Vecna thinks he's in charge and created the mind flayer, but he's only human after all.

[@Pink-bow-blue-hat]

SPOILERS, Vecna doesn't create the Mind Flayer, but rather becomes one with it. I watched The First Shadow in the West End today (a canon stageplay about Vecna's backstory) and they confirmed he didn't create the Mind Flayer. It is suggested the Mind Flayer is possessing him as he is mentally broken about how much of his cruel use of his powers is done by himself Vs "him" who he warns the other characters about who Henry - later Vecna, fears hurting. He fears "him" - the Mind Flayer. Ever since Henry encountered the Upside Down, he was corrupted and is shown to be possessed by it causing his powers. Some of his hurtful deeds are in fact caused by himself such as accidentally killing a cat thinking it was a dream, but he later does appear to be possessed by a much more powerful, evil entity - the mind flayer. After the cat, he kills multiple animals but it's not shown whether that was him or if he was being possessed, and how many of these incidents he knew were dreams. When it comes to killing humans however, he is possessed by the Mind Flayer. In the end, this breaks him and he is essentially both Henry and the Mind Flayer, accepting both parts and assuming the evil, sadistic character in the series we know.

[@AgOti-ZaDrOtI]

0_0 wow

[@ricekrispies4994]

Funnily enough the vr game tells a similar story. In the game he gets possessed by the mind flayer and it tries to kind of “study” him but Henry manages to escape and starts taking parts of it until he can finally take it over, however his body (and presumably mind) gets corrupted in the process. I do think the stage play both does and doesn’t work with this context as you can periodically hear the mind flayer in your head during the game as if it were a inner voice rather than a separate entity but there’s also one line where it mentions it wants to “be free” however this could also echo something Henry says later in a flashback

[@jacobtennyson9213]

That is correct.

[@shank9956]

now that some of us have seen the play... how to interpret this scene

[@EthanIlchert]

I hate it because it created a huge retcon that changed everything.

[@shank9956]

Really? I thought people were relieved by the play's justification of the Henry/Mind Flayer relationship. The revelations of "Vecna" in 4X09 are for me the biggest retcon stuck to scotch tape I've ever seen in a series of this scope... And then to go from an obscure kaiju to Henry being beaten 3 times by children is still hard to digest when I think about it.

[@EthanIlchert]

@@shank9956 I loved Vecna being a completely evil character. The change makes me feel disappointed, that’s just me and if you like the change then I won’t judge you.

[@shank9956]

​​@@EthanIlchertI know what you mean! I'd still prefer the shadow monster with his imposing form that only the lightning reveals but Vecna is refreshing for the series, I just found him less imposing after Chrissy's murder! Vecna was a man to begin with, and to become SO diabolical so young without having been influenced beforehand doesn't seem realistic to me! Personally, I didn't see any change with the play, but rest assured: given the statements, Vecna will remain the main antagonist of Stranger Things.

[@EthanIlchert]

@@shank9956 Good to know and I liked the idea of him already being evil without the Mind Flayer's influence, showing how monstrous he already was.

[@SKtheGREAT]

The mind flayer and the entity from DBD work similarly I see, just on different levels

[@dday906]

I was pretty dang happy to see the Mind Flayer make an appearance, finally, in this season. It's my favorite villain of the series (though Vecna is a close second) and I love it's simple, yet scary design. And the fact it was formed from Vecna's love for spiders is a great connection. I will say I'm on the side of the Mind Flayer still being the true big bad of the series, however. After all, it clearly already existed. All Vecna did was give it a form. In the end, the Upside Down is the Mind Flayer's world. Vecna just lives in it. Plus Vecna mentioned the Mind Flayer saw his potential (makes sense, because he did give it form), basically saying that he was more or less taken in by the Mind Flayer, not the other way around. I do still wish that Vecna and the Mind Flayer were two separate threats, and were more like fighting for dominance. It was my original hope/theory. But this is still awesome.

[@samuelault4723]

Vecna is the big bad though and the show makes that very clear when El says “it was you, always you” after Vecna finishes explaining how he shaped a cloud of space evil into the mind flayer as we know it.

[@dday906]

@@samuelault4723 And Eleven is right. If it weren't for Vecna, none of this would have happened. But here's the thing: the Mind Flayer is still a much bigger threat. As I've said before, Vecna is living in the Mind Flayer's world. Everything in the Upside Down belongs to the Mind Flayer and Vecna's plan is to get it out into the real world. In the end, Vecna is the Mind Flayer's instrument. A highly valuable one, but an instrument nonetheless. Vecna simply gave the Mind Flayer a body. The Mind Flayer put Vecna to work.

[@mb11901]

I feel you so hard! But i think we should accept that the Mind Flayer is just Vecna….

[@etnev2757]

Vecna didnt create the mind flayer, vecna is the mind flayer. They are the same entity. “Vecna” and “Mind Flayer” are names that the kids gave to different forms of the same entity. Before 001 was sent to the upside down, that darkness that makes up the “mind flayer” was not sentient, it was just there, it wasn’t evil. When 001 was sent to the upside down, he formed the non sentient darkness into a spider-like form, then 001 literally became it/transferred his consciousness into the darkness. The mind flayer that was the main villain of season 2 and 3 was 001. 001 is the villain of the entire show, he has been present in many forms throughout the seasons, such as the shadow monster/mind flayer in season 2, the fleshy mind flayer in season 3, and vecna in season 4. They are not different entity’s, they are all the same entity just in different forms. The shadow monster is 001’s preferred form/true form, the spider monster in season 3 is still 001 accept it’s made up of dead body’s, and vecna is 001’s physical form that was only used to open portals from the upside down into the real world so he could get his true form (shadow monster) into the real world. In season 3, 001 in his fleshy spider form bit elevens leg and absorbed her powers. Since 001 has elevens powers, he created a physical form which the kids call “vecna”, in order open 4 portals into the real world to let his true form (shadow monster) into the real world. He did this by using elevens powers to kill kids and open portals where they died. The mind flayer and vecna are not separate things. They are both one entity, they are both 001. The kids have just gave 001 different names for his different forms. “Mind Flayer” and “Vecna” are just names that the kids gave to different forms of 001. 001 is and always has been the main villain of stranger things, terrorizing Hawkins in different forms.

[@dday906]

@@mb11901 yeah. I see that it's been officially described as that.