After Kithomer: The Decline of the Klingon Empire

[@thestanleys3657]

Worf and Ezri's conversation in DS9 episode Tacking into the wind hits the nail on the head about the Klingon empires decline

[@JoacinoDaGona]

It is also a nice contrast to how Jadzia was a fan girl of the Klingon Empire (and to lesser extend Curzon) while Ezri has much more dour opinion on the KE.

[@critter30002001]

@@JoacinoDaGona I don’t think Jadzia was as much a fan girl as much as invested in it. Both Worf and her had spent years working to improve the Empire ( as well as Curzon). None of them could accept the Empire dying since they had worked so hard to keep it alive. Ezri was emotionally detached enough to offer a counter argument. The issue with her argument is that it affects all governments since there is no such thing as a organization void of corruption. All governments including the Federation allow a certain level of corruption to exist as part of their politics and compromises.

[@gamemasterultima]

Worf himself could’ve taken the throne and stopped the decline by slowly modernizing the empire

[@farshnuke]

@@gamemasterultima 1. Worf was made into a dink by DS9. Dude had already slain a foe under a Picard so the only way DS9 could add grey to him was by making him a bit of a twit. 2. Worf would be gone within a week because he has a checkered past is too easily manipulated and has too many enemies. I see the Klingons ultimately joining the Federation.

[@jonmcgee6987]

I always enjoy Klingon lore videos. I Really liked the Wings of Kahless ship lore series.

[@cliffwahl7769]

Never knew there was two swords distance in the UK. Thank you for teaching me something new today!

[@weldonwin]

It's still on the books that MPs are not permitted to bring weapons or armour into the Parliament chambers

[@wedgeantillies66]

Basically Klingon empire after Khitomer starts sliding into second ranked power status in the star trek and even when they attempt to reverse this trend by attacking a weaker smaller power they leave themselves vulnerable to attack from the romulans. While decentralisation inside the empire effectively sets the stage for the eventual factional feuding and infighting that will lead to the klingon civil war in2360s.

[@occultatumquaestio5226]

The Klingons really like to pick on the Cardassians in particular. It is very much enjoyable to further look into the internal society of the Klingons and see more to them than meets the eye.

[@richardgregory3684]

Can't really blame them though - the Cardassians are thoroughly nasty pieces of work for the most part.

[@carnifexor3010]

More picking on the Cardassians... always!

[@thebashar]

I really hope this leads up to a video on the battle of Narendra III

[@miamijules2149]

Knowing Venom.... it will... and it’ll be fucking epic.

[@philly83]

Love the post credit scene

[@matthewkeeling886]

I wouldn't be surprised if the changes in Klingon attitude between TOS and TNG stem from something of a falling back upon tradition as a cultural touchstone, even within the more reformist camp. A disaster like Praxis could easily cause such a shift in the socio-political climate.

[@QalOrt]

The entering into an era of Neo-Feudalism pretty much sums up my view of how the Klingons' society in TNG/DSN/VOY/PRO. They go from being a very central nation in TOS but all those decades after Praxis exploding they end up having a society that nostalgises their past and embraces a warrior society.

[@heypeopleitsmatt]

Yuuuusss new video and it's LOOORREEE . I'm so hyped

[@antwan1357]

6278 hours space trucking in elite dangerous and I wish star wars or star trek had something similar.

[@AndrewDayMortgage]

Love your videos. Thanks!

[@jhallam2011]

Intriguing perspective and I like it!

[@FrakkinGaiusBaltar]

Obligatory parallel to Japan: After the historic traumatic event (Praxis/Commodore Perry) the Empire was forced to "open" itself, leading to a severe degradation of the centralised authority (Chancellor/Shogun) and the various feudal lords (Great Houses/Daimyo) increasingly acting on their own volition and building their own armies. Eventually, the various houses rallied around two factions: the progressive faction, which seeked to modernize and reform the country (which rallied around the Chancellor/Shogun) and a traditionalist faction, which seeked to preserve the founding ideals of imperial society (in Japan, these faction rallied around the Emperor and the "sonno joi" movement).

[@seimen4348]

Wasnt the progressive faction not tge pro-open around the emperor?

[@FrakkinGaiusBaltar]

@@seimen4348 Initially no, the Shogunate was pushing for modernization already in the 1850s, while Imperial loyalists (the "ishin shihi) followed a strict traditionalist and xenophobic agenda (wanting to expel all foreigners and denounce the commercial treaties). It was only after the bombardment of Kagoshima that this line of thinking proved to be untenable. Thus, the pro-Emperor faction shifted to the goal of deposing the Shogun to turn Japan into a modern state with a centralised authority.

[@ahmedshaharyarejaz9886]

The Klingon Empire resembles the Polish-Lituanian Common Wealth or Holy Roman Empire than Imperial Japan. The difference here is that Japan had a hereditary Emperor whilst the Klingons elect a Chancellor from amongst the great houses much like the Polish-Lithuanian Common Wealth or HRE.

[@FrakkinGaiusBaltar]

@@ahmedshaharyarejaz9886 The Empire had and currently has (in the Kahless clone) a figurehead Emperor while the government is run by the supreme military commander

[@ahmedshaharyarejaz9886]

@@FrakkinGaiusBaltar Hmm then maybe their could be the Klingon on equivalent of the Meiji restoration or worse a Young Turks Movement in the empire, perhaps both in opposition to each other.

[@timothyhiggins8934]

Can't wait to see all that honor, sacrifice, betrayal and deviousness that will be displayed

[@chrissonofpear1384]

A lot of this video also closely based on the Lost Era novel 'The Art of the Impossible', by Keith R. A. Decandido - which I strongly recommend!

[@SPatrickRoss]

Jones: "The Klingons don't have the men or ships to police the empire, you said..."😡 Mud: "How was I supposed to know they, oof!" (Mud gets a disruptor rifle butt to the gut) Kreosian Soldier (In a KDF Uniform): "Silence Prisoners!"

[@jeffreyb.2817]

I think the reason that people think Kronos was completely evacuated is there was one background line in Undiscovered Country prior to Kerk preventing UFP President giving his speech to before the assassination attempt. At "1:49:00" in the movie, the President Refers to "The proposed agenda is as follows. The complete evacuation of Kronos within the 50 year time frame." Additionally the beginning of the movie talks about the destruction of the ozone layer in 50 year. It makes it sound like Kronos is going to be evacuated.

[@45580677]

Nicely done

[@richard1701able]

This video brought glory to the empire. Kapla!

[@crownprincesebastianjohano7069]

I wouldn't assume the resolution to the 17 year B'Treken Nebula incident favored the Klingons if they started it. By the TNG era there is absolutely no Klingon influence in the area of the quadrant around Cardassia. If it was a Klingon move to expand in that area it seems that they failed. Which belies either some real Klingon weakness, because at the point the Cardassians really were rather weak, or the age-old truism that expeditionary warfare is difficult when supply-lines are stretched to the limit with Klingon space so far away. They ran into the same problems 50 years later.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

Possibly. Maybe it's a stalemate. The klingons definitely had the tech advantage. Just...

[@carnifexor3010]

And it was a massive Lore dump! So massive it broke the American Standard! Thank you for another excellent video! 😁🤗💚

[@elijahhawkins5882]

If the British Parliament is separated by two sword lengths, is the Klingon High Council separated by two bat'leths?

[@andrewshear2927]

Fun video really enjoyed it.

[@andrwblood9162]

I was wondering if there'd be an equivalent to Shock Therapy in Russia with the Klingons. Not one for one, but some external push to dramatically influence the Empire from the Federation side that creates a lot more harm than good. That is until a strongman comes in and ends that process... with its own complications in doing so...👀

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

No. In the case of the klingons they were kinda left to decay. Remember initially plenty of people in the federation would be happy to see them gone.

[@Marinealver]

I always considered the houses to develop military Juntas that control sections of the Klingon Military, which could split from the currently ruling regime. It is still common on earth, During Libya there are pictures of Rebel Libyan Fighter craft being shot down. Now you would assume that aircraft would be under the tightest grip but whole squadrons were loyal to tribe over state.

[@nicocarrero5953]

"the klingons are not known for simping" gave me a giggle

[@shanenolan8252]

Sweet you had me at lore

[@slavsquatsuperstar]

Qo’noS is the standardized transliteration from Klingon to English. The “Q” is still pronounced similar to “kr,” except further back in the mouth. Not to be confused with lowercase “q,” which for some reason is a separate letter.

[@Toxoplasma13]

I see the pre-Khitomer empire as something very similar to the Meiji era in Japan; a new, modern, centralised state is created- whose high officials just so happen to come from the old feudal elites. Reversion to earlier feudal structures is always just beneath the surface; in some respects, it’s beneficial, a kind of political shock absorber for crises of state.

[@wedgeantillies66]

Curious Venom ,if after doing video on the Khitomer massacre you will be looking at battle of Narendra III

[@mattwho81]

Always seems odd that a culture as divided and fractious as the Klingons could survive their frequent civil wars, let alone keep pace with the Federation. The answer is Guilds. Most of the Klingons key infrastructure is in the hands of various Guilds, which the Great Houses contract to build ships and factories for them. While we often see Klingon ships shooting at each other it’s rare to see them shooting at a shipyard. While Klingon aggression was vented in inter-house wars the Guilds just kept on going.

[@anndra8687]

They did abandon Kronos for Kling, then they realised their new homeworld sounded silly so they moved back to Kronos but took the opportunity to rename it slightly

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

Then why does the new homework look like a shithole (technical term)

[@anndra8687]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 Klingon aesthetics are different to ours. They like it

[@crewdawg2008]

Memory alpha indicates that Kronos, Qo'nos, and Kling are all various names used to refer to the klingon homeworld. Memory Beta indicates that Kling is a city on Kronos. These are both Beta Canon sources, of course, but there appears to be no true canon, or alpha canon if you prefer, sources to indicate that Kling is a separate world from Kronos. What is the source of your claim?

[@anndra8687]

@@crewdawg2008 The source is I thought it was funny

[@crewdawg2008]

@@anndra8687 OH oh is this the "I'll defend this until I can't anymore then claim it was a joke" routine?

[@ContemporaryCompendium]

MORE!!

[@davidreeves4556]

Don't they say they are evacuating kronos in the undiscovered country? They try to avoid naming the klingon homeworld in early TNG, maybe they did this because they wanted to address post TUC

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

they do... but that doesn't seem to have happened. my guess is that the klingons comitted to staying and built a massive weather control system, which is why the sky is green.

[@shanenolan8252]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 i disagree, i have read lore , that said it did , the beta antarres fleet yard was expanded to develop a fleet of transports. ( cassidy Yates freighter) the antares class . The dialogue in the movie the plan called for an evaluation in a 50 year timescale, a near by world , a new imperial capital is logical and has happened in real world. Rome , even England, London wasn't always the capital, yes i heard the language thing , but i also heard kronos was the original name and the other was translated as the Klingon home world. But the economics of building the housing and industrial infrastructure necessary to support a capital of an empire would explain 50 year's of no military budget, and the federation economically and technologically supporting the operation. But even the climate is different. Kronos is cold and windswept, the new homeworld is not , its warmer. ( enterprise, vs tng ) the capital is very different, moving the population explains a lot more than not moving. , saving an ozone lair isn't going to occupy the military or the people. , or the economy. Even terra forming , cant really be done with people living on the surface. ( small domes or science team or a small colony) even if kronos was saved the people needed to not be there , and it also explains the Klingon military recovery, an infrastructure capable of doing that would be able to recalibrate to rebuild it military industrial complex. Or war machine. , a navy with around 6 thousand vessels has to have around 10 times as many civilian vessels. , Klingons would require a military solution, a military project to build and man an armada to save there population and then rebuild the military, amd economy on a grand generational plan. Is more believable than a science project that cost a fortune and required warrior's to do nothing for 50 odd years. ? Also the time line of the romulan war or blood fued makes more sense if the Romulans invaded at the mid point of the plan , which may if successful caused the end of the empire. Kitomer or nerendra 3 isn't going to do that . And it also justifies the Klingons refusal to assist in the hobis event. . Actually it sounds like they exploited events. ( sorry long comment)

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

@@shanenolan8252 yeah but I don't think the klingons would leave their homeworld

[@matthewkeeling886]

It is possible they evacuated in the immediate aftermath and came back after a few months/years of cleaning up the environmental issues caused by the explosion, much like any large scale industrial disaster in real life.

[@raw6668]

In your opinion, who is more responsible for Starfleet being crippled military during the Golden Age, Spock trying to make peace with Klingons, or Chief of Starfleet Command Cartwright and his allies attempting a coup that not only kicked a large chunk of military minds out of Starfleet but made it taboo?

[@Hartzilla2007]

Honestly I get the feeling that it was more with the Klingons now allies and the Romulans fucking off for 50 years the biggest threats were second rate powers like the Cardassians and Ferengi that ships like the Excelsior-class could deal with well enough so they didn't have much of a reason to build large amounts of new ships until Q had them bump into the Borg at which point they were ridiculously out matched.

[@cedrictaylor08]

When dose Kenpek become head of the council

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

Soon after these events.

[@ThatSlowTypingGuy]

Hold up, if K'mpec was next after this that would mean he only served for 21 years. That sounds kinda short for "longest-serving Klingon Chancellor of the Klingon High Council" at the time.

[@delwynandrews6514]

Good one, but now 4 months with no dominion war monthly update

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

They are next on my list

[@swssm4741]

If the Klingons were so weak after kithomer how did they turn back the Romulan fleet in the Tomed incedent?

[@danielseelye6005]

Tomed was in the 23 teens, Khitomer was later in the 40's. (Worf was a kid around 5 years old @ Khitomer and was in his 30's for TNG (2360's)

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

and because suprise was so key during the Tomed incident the klingons didn't need many ships to ruin the romulans crossing.

[@tullyDT]

Even though the Klingons were on the decline at the time of the Tomed incident, they were in no way out of the picture they could still put up a fight and pose a problem with their own fleet of cloaked ships. The cold war with the federation was threatening to turn hot at any moment. With the Federation and Klingon Empire establishing good relations there was a real possibility that the Federation would join in on the side of the Klingons especially if a Klingon-Romulan war was started by Romulans trying to violate Klingon space to launch a surprise attack on the Federation. The Federation outnumbered the Romulans and had developed there own cloaking technology, the Tomed operation was intended as a sort of deadly bluff to deter Federation expansion and hopefully forestall a war the Romulans weren't sure they could win.

[@Palmerrip]

Just cause you're in decline doesn't mean you are in no way weak. Let's not forget that an enemy is at its most dangerous when they are backed into a corner and have nothing to loose.

[@timothyhiggins8934]

Plus the romulans weren't prepared to fight both the Klingons and starfleet at the same time

[@tomb7942]

I take it you gave up on the Dominion war series?

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

No I am coming back to it. Hopefully by the end of the month.

[@tomb7942]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 Awesome! I revisit the playlist every now and then as a background while working on another computer and each time notice things I didn't see before or on DS9. Its also fun to try to figure out what real world battle is being used as a template. They do look like a MF to create as well. I'm thinking a whole lot of reading 2nd source books is involved.

[@yyz1335]

"Klingon's are not known for simping". I don't know. think of Martok and Sirella

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

That's not simping that's warfare

[@chrisletendre8878]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 But what about all the times that Worf simped, like for Grilka? :P Seriously though, I did have to pause and giggle after that part, cause immediately all the moments of Klingons simping popped into my head and it was too funny

[@timtyoutube87]

This smells like a Treaty of Versailles with not building war ships and no Photon Torpedoes. With 2 sides in the High Council is because of this Treaty. It's a bad deal

[@0utc4st1985]

I thought the Cardassians didn't have a border with the Klingons? Since the alliance with the Federation wasn't fully cemented I'm not sure how they would have gotten there......

[@sovietdominion]

it is cannon though since it is mentioned in "way of the warrior"

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

Yeah. It was probably in neutral space Above the federation.

[@LackofFaithify]

Damn women, not suiciding for no reason.

[@ShannonCarter55]

"Second War of the 2250s we don't talk about..." Yeah, I don't talk Discovery or Strange New Worlds either.

[@frankowalker4662]

Those pesky Klingons. :)

[@danielsalazar6211]

Qapla' 💪

[@berges104]

..... the 4 years war and then the war of .... that we don't talk about ❤️ 🧡 💛 💚 💙

[@hanshawks5088]

One of those admiral became father to Ben Sisko