Ventilated Hive vs. Condensing Hive & Intro to Hive Hugger

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Peg DeSanto is a cofounder of Bee the Change LLC, a Minnesota based company whose mission is to improve honey bee winter survival by developing a high-tech, science based insulation system. The video provides an in depth sharing of the scientific research done on comparing the thermodynamics of a ventilated hive vs. a condensing hive. It also gives an overview on the science behind developing the Hive Hugger winterization system and the data on its effectiveness in the field.

[@arcticbeekeeping]

Important info shared in this presentation! To me insulation is way underrated. Bees have survived in well insulated tree cavities for thousands of years and suddenly beekeepers put bees in thin uninsulated boxes and expects them to survive just like that. I keep bees in the arctic and insulation is the key to successful beekeeping here. I find it weird that insulation hasn’t been “studied” more. It seems like it started to get traction just these last couple of years. Hope more beekeepers realize the importance of insulation both on cold and in warm climates 😊

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hello Artic Beekeeper! Thank you for your kind endorsement on the content of the presentation. That means a lot coming from you and what an honor to have you share your experiences keeping bees up there! That's remarkable! I have so many questions... :) My best, Peg

[@arcticbeekeeping]

@@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv Yes it’s challenging but with the insulation the bees survive. I have also been in touch with Etienne Tardif and talked about his amazing work. And also, the broodminder sensor I got gives me peace in mind in times when I can’t inspect my hives. I have big beliefs in the Hive Hugger !

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

@@arcticbeekeeping I appreciate your support! I love this opportunity to network with such interesting and amazing beekeepers, like yourself! All my best, Peg :)

[@philchevela7426]

Hello Peggy, I'm a retired Tool & Die engineer. Data is king, and you have done your research. The idea is not new but your research and results are spot on. When you bring Dr. Spivak and Randy Oliver into the picture, I know you have done your homework. I started beekeeping as a hobbyist when I was 10 in 1960. I've seen alot in my years. People need to be carefull with mis-information. Your data is correct, well done!

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Phil, thank you for taking the time to view the video and write such kind feedback. Your perspective means a lot to me given your profession and MANY years of beekeeping! Much appreciated! My best, Peg

[@adkfoothills1973]

You did a wonderful job with the presentation, Peggy and it's obvious that you did your homework. I'll be putting my Hive Hugger to the test next winter and I hope that more beekeepers from all over will open their minds and embrace the science behind a well insulated, non ventilated hive. Thank You 😊😊

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hello! Thank you for your purchase as well as your kind and supportive words. I would love to hear from you in the Spring as I am very open to any feedback on how we may improve on the product. Much appreciation! Peg

[@kenwooley9414]

Thank you for a well researched and thoughtful presentation. I've been keeping bees for 13 years just east of Stillwater, MN and have always used some form of insulation. I'm basically an engineer so tend to migrate to understanding the technical aspects of problems and challenges. After the first couple of years I migrated to a system that largely duplicates the principles you discussed. I have also followed most of the individuals you mentioned, especially Etienne in the Yukon. I use about three inches on top and one to one and a half on the sides plus a wind break. During the cold winter we had last year I did not notice as many dead bees outside the hive as some years. However, I only lost two out of 26 hives. Doing spring inspections etc I found most hives were still quite heavy and built up quite nicely for a great harvest. I would be interested in sharing my approach and thoughts etc if you would be interested. Thanks again!

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hello Ken. Thank you for your compliments on the presentation. :) It is always great to hear from "condensing hive" enthusiasts. Yes, I would love to hear more about your approach! It sounds like you have had great overwintering success - well done! My email is [e-mail]. My cell is 612-868-8532. I look forward to hearing from you. My best, Peg

[@heavymechanic2]

Peggy, I was just discussing the need for thick top insulation and much less on the walls.. Last December, we had wicked winds and many people all over had frozen pipes. A neighbor stopped by and was amazed at my bees doing well in plain wood boxes as I was dropping in a frame of honey.. My setup involves a chunk of R-13 fiberglass in a homemade feeder box above the hive (similar to a quilt box), and I feed them in late summer to build up.. I really enjoyed all the data you collected as my bees plug off all the top ventilation supporting your research.

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hello! Ha! Yes, the bees know best! Thank you for sharing your experience and success with overwintering in a similar fashion. The science is definitely out there to back up this approach. I am happy to be able to share it in a "condensed" format. :) My best, Peg

[@JamesMurray-wd2nr]

Great Presentation I Learned A Ton from this Webinar! Thank You Peg Your Awesome Person on behalf of Beekeeper's Everywhere ~THANK YOU~

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

James, such super sweet feedback! I appreciate you taking the time to watch the video and provide comments. All my best! Peg

[@danielc9506]

Very informative! Thank you so much for all your hard work and sharing your findings with the masses.. also received my bee hugger crown insulation shipment yesterday.. thank you Peggy

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hi Dan! You are welcome and thank you for your sweet compliments! I am glad your shipment arrived safe and sound - how exciting! My best, Peg

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hello Dan. I appreciate all the support! I am glad you received the shipment - just in time as the weather is changing quickly. I am glad your bees will be well taken care of this winter. My best, Peg

[@KevinJames-uh6lp]

Fantastic video. I learnt so much. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts and energy with us all. 🐝 🐝

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Kevin, you are very welcome. And thank you for your kind words and for taking the time to watch the video.! 🙏🏻😊 My best, Peg

[@bigbrickwall]

Great presentation! You are a very good speaker. I also like that you sell only the top insulator piece, since that is the most important place to insulation.

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Stephen, thank you for your kind words and the support. Much appreciation! Peg

[@glenbrown4408]

thank u for sharing this, very valuable!!

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Thank you, Glen! Much appreciated.

[@jamesonsexton1761]

amazing work🙌🏼

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Thank you Jameson! :)

[@johncaccia]

Great info / data! Thank you! After watching this video I wondered why you did not address the bottom side insulation. ?

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hello John. I did not come across research that suggested that we should be insulating the bottom side of the hive. Do you have more information you could share with me on this practice? I would love to learn more. Thank you, Peg

[@davecavana1031]

I sat down and watched this just as I was about to start well now I've 200mm above my 5 hives and 50mm around them I'm so so excited for winter I'm very ready thank you

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Dave, your sharing brought a big smile to my face as my biggest goal, above all else, is to help get the science out there so people can do just what you did! Thank you for sharing! My best, Peg

[@RyanMcDonnough]

Bravo! 👏🏻

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Thank you, Ryan. So kind. My best, Peg

[@bradwamsley3465]

Another benefit to a Condensing Hive is the latent heat generated from the “Change of State” of water vapor into a liquid. Free heat over the many Months of Winter in the colder climates.

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hi Brad. Curiously, Randy Oliver was the first person to teach me about this benefit of a condensing hive. I cut it from my slides when I needed to shorten it. Probably should have left it in… lol! Thank you for sharing. My best, Peg

[@JohnElvisDuff]

Nice presentation, with the greatest respect, might one suggest to say frost comes down, hence the importance of the roof being a higher R value.

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hello John. You make a great point, because yes, if the dewpoint is below freezing, like in an uninsulated hive, then indeed the moisture that forms will be in the form of frost, not water. Because this KZbin is already recorded, I cannot change it here, but I will modify my future presentations to reflect this. Thank you for your suggestion and for your kind feedback! My best, Peg

[@jackgoral8482]

If you look up Florida's insulation requirements for homes you will find R30+ for roof and R10+ for walls. This is because of a hot summer. It looks that insulation is good all year around in hot and cold areas, no matter if this is a human house or a bee house.

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hello Jack, that is very interesting about Florida's insulation requirements matching what is recommended for keeping bees warm in northern climates! Thank you for sharing that. :) My best, Peg

[@jonathandangers5009]

Fantastic presentation and well thought out solution. One question I had-what do you about the bottom of the hive?

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Jonathan, thank you for your kind feedback. I am guessing you are asking about solid versus screened bottom boards. The Hive Hugger was tested and is effective with either set up. Just make sure that the panel is slid into place if using a screened bottom board.

[@dcsblessedbees]

Great presentation, very interesting info, in a turn about way it reinforces my opinion on venting. Thank you very much for sharing your time. You can actually provide venting while retaining your thermal barrier, the attic in your house is a prime example. New beekeeper was a home contractor for 15 years. I'm giving mine venting that they can open and close it as they need to for Summer to Winter changes. In my opinion it gives them even more control over their environment by giving them additional mechanisms to control it. One thing I do know I had next to no bearding through all the hottest day.

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Thank you for your kind feedback and for sharing your experience as a home contractor and a beekeeper. You make a good point that ventilation for hot weather hive management can be beneficial. I apologize that I inferred that it is not. I would like to hear more about your set up that allows the bees to open and close the ventilation system as needed. That is very intriguing as I agree that they know what they need more than we do. My best, Peg

[@dcsblessedbees]

@@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv It's not a set up I have myself atm. I have just seen videos of smaller venting screened holes and the bees closed some and didn't others. Giving it a try this Winter. My only real perspective is from the construction side, I am only going into my second Winter as a beekeeper. I live in SW Washington state so our Winters are real wet. Last Winter I had an incredible amount of condensation issues. High humidity with fog and then add the NW rain. My Winter wet issues is part of why your video caught my eye. I am always interested in potential ways to help my bees with the wetness. There are some real interesting products now days that can aid in many of these issues and all kinds of information, ya just have to go looking a little.😁 I really enjoyed your presentation of the data and how many factors you took into count when putting it all together.👍

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

@@dcsblessedbees Thank you! Please continue to share how the different winterizing techniques work for you in your climate. I am very open to learning and sharing new ways to help beekeepers improve their winter survival rates. Each climate brings its own unique challenges so the more we can help each other out, the better. Much appreciation! Peg

[@gloriayoder5173]

Much appreciated research!!! Will you be on display at the North American Honey Bee Expo in Louisville Kentucky January 2024?

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hello Gloria. Thank you for the compliment! I have not made a decision yet about whether we will be attending the North American Bee Expo in January. The product is for winter use, so I am not sure if Kentucky is the best venue for winter use products?

[@gloriayoder5173]

@@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv The North American Honey Bee Expo isn’t just for Kentuckians, it is for all of North America including Canada. If you look at the vendors listing on the website you’ll see a few Canadian vendors will be on display. Etienne Tardif is one of the speakers as is Richard Noel from France.

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

@@gloriayoder5173 Hello Gloria. Thank you for sharing that information. I will definitely look at their website! :) My best, Peg

[@gyork1849]

​@@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv I'll be attending the NAHBE and would love to see you there.

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

@@gyork1849 I am sad to share that I have a previous commitment during the same time as NAHBE so I will not be able to attend. Hopefully, we can meet at another future conference! My best, Peg

[@user-sy6in2ti3j]

Thanks for this excellent research. I assume the hive bottom board is closed, right?

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Thank you for your kind feedback. Yes, if you use a screened bottom board, the panel should be slid back into place. I hope I am answering the right question. :) My best, Peg

[@framcesmoore]

ha nice job thank you for doing this I live in Virginia it does not get as cold here but I still wrap my hives I have been using the bee cozies I had never heard of the hive huggers do u think they are to much for the south. Thanks and again nice presentation.

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Thank you for the question. Have you had good success with overwintering in bee cozys? The high R-values of our products are designed and tested for climate zones 1- 5. Virginia is zone 5-8. Perhaps you could just add our high R-value top panel to your bee cozy wraps? There is no harm in having more insulation as insulation does not add heat to the hive, it simply prevents the heat that the bees generate from leaving the hive. My best, Peg

[@framcesmoore]

@@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv Ha good to hear from u yes so far good outcome. most of the bee keepers here do not do anything, but I do the max I can do so I can seep at night I worried so very much about them dieing and for me to wrap them is the upmost I can do there is notning else I can do for them so it gives me a peace of mind if that makes since. Thanks again for the video it was great.

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

@@framcesmoore It is great to hear of your good success with the cozys. Given that, it does not sound like you need to do anything different. I appreciate the deep care and concern you have for the well being of your bees! MY best, Peg

[@slivers4007]

Interesting watch. My question would be what affect is there on the bee's when they have had front/top entrances all summer and then all of a sudden the entrances are closed off and they have to find the bottom entrance that they have not used all summer? Kind of like sealing them up and hope they find their way out?

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

HelloI Thank you for reaching out. Great question. Last year for the SARE Grant study, we converted many previous ventilated hives with upper entrances to condensing hives with no upper entrances before tucking them in for the winter and they did very well. No issues with them switching to just using the lower entrance. I believe they have great capacity to adapt to changes in their hive configuration. My best, Peg

[@FyteFyre]

What would be the best top feeder to use with this system that wouldn't affect the top insulation board ?

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hello. In very cold climates, like here in Minnesota, we stop supplemental feeding in the fall when it gets to be about 50° outside. Then for a double deep, we leave about 80-100# of honey for the bees to overwinter on. With the Hive Hugger on, they will not need to eat that much , but honey provides great thermal mass and helps hold heat in the hive. I should have asked right away, what climate zone or state do you live in? If you do provide supplement feed, then a frame feeder would work best. My best, Peg

[@mikep4890]

Excellent presentation! Will be informing you in Spring 2024 how my two Hive Hugger hives did in an email to you so you know the information how they did, comments from me, and any suggestions from me to help in your study. I hope the study does great for you.

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Mike, I really appreciate your positive feedback and well wishes. I look forward to hearing from you in the spring! All my best, Peg

[@QuinnB1]

Do Hive Huggers fit over Apimaye hives? Would I replace the screened bottom board with a full bottom board?

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hello Melissa. The foam board wrap does not fit around the Apimaye hive, but the Crown top panel does fit pretty well on top of their hive boxes. We have other Apimaye beekeepers using the Crown panel this way to provide high R-value insulation on top of the hive and to seal out the ventilation from the outer cover. My best, Peg

[@simm2k]

very interesting. What happens if the bottom entrance is burried by snow.?

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

That’s a good question. Our test hives sit on wooden pallets and we get a lot of snow here in Minnesota as well. In our field experience, the heat coming out of the lower extrance melts the snow that accumulates in front of the hive so the entrances stayed clear of snow all winter. I have had beekeepers in northern Minnesota whose hives were completely buried in snow and they reported the heat coming out of the lower entrance melts the snow and it creates a igloo dome of air space in front of the entrance and that there is air exchange through the snow so the bees survived without a problem. I would love to hear more about your experiences. I wonder even with an upper entrance, if the snow is so deep that the whole hive is buried, wouldn’t the upper entrance also be buried in snow? My best, Peg

[@WillHolterman]

Can this work with a candy board on top? I'm in Chicagoland area. Great presentation. 👍

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hello Will. It can, you would just need to prop the Hive Hugger wrap up to include covering the candy board area. Are you wanting to use a candy board because the winter honey stores are light? The research shows the bees consume 30-50% less honey in really well insulated hive, so emergency or supplemental feed is not needed as long as they have 80-100# in a double deep. My best, Peg

[@WillHolterman]

​@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv Yes, I think I am a little light this year. Thanks for replying. I run 10 frame mediums in mine, and only one hive has three brood boxes on. The rest are two boxes. I was thinking to purchase just the tops and I have r11 wraps for the sides.

[@Allan79789]

A couple of points of concerns, If your bottom entrance plugs up with dead bees, or snow and ice, there is no air getting into the colony. That could be deadly. On the point of black insulation. With the cluster loosening and tightening on a daily basis, would this not be beneficial in terms of giving the cluster a chance to move onto new food stores in the warm part of the cycle. Without the added heat generated from the black insulation cover, the bees are stuck in one spot, run out of food. I think I know how you will respond, but let's see what you think.

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hello Allan. We did not clear out our lower entrances and had no issues with the lower entrances plugging up. I believe the reasons for this are multifactorial. The first one is in very well insulated hives, the mortality is significantly less than in uninsulated hives, so there are fewer bees dying off over the winter. Secondly, in well insulated hives, the air is warmer, and thus can hold more moisture than cold hives. And with the constant temperatures that the insulated hive’s provide, there aren’t the diurnal swings that create daily dips into dew point ranges. Also, in well insulated hives, the bees eat 30 to 50% less honey and so there’s less water as a byproduct of honey metabolism. Thus, we had no issues with dead bees or ice blocking the entrances. In uninsulated tarpaper hives, the solar gain from the black coverings is often the only opportunity bees have to access their honey. But that leaves them very vulnerable at night or on cloudy days. The research shows when we provide a good amount of insulation, the bees don’t even cluster over the winter and are free to move around the whole hive - day or night. Their ability to reach food and water in the hive is not dependent on the sun. Thank you for your questions. My best, Peg

[@Allan79789]

Thanks for your answers Peg. I am in Manitoba and winter has come early, we have more than 6 inches of snow on the ground. Last night got down down -14c, this afternoon, sunny at -6c we have bees flying around the hive. Hoping for some warmer temps to melt some of this snow. The snow and ice I have on the lower entrance comes from the outside, meaning snow and ice. I do believe in the power of insulation. I run 2 inch styrafoam hives and use Bee Cozy on my wooden hives. With all the new information coming out, I have reduced my top entrance size. I still believe its important to have a second entrance in case my bottom one gets plugged. You have an interesting product and I will be looking at it more.

[@bradwamsley3465]

Have you thought of starting a Facebook “Condensing Hive” group chat?

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Brad,! I just created a Facebook group called “Condensing Hive Beekeepers”. See you there! Thank you for the idea! My best, Peg

[@laadouaayoub]

Hello, how are you? I wish you good luck. You have to take precautions in the winter, snow and extreme cold

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hello! Thank you for your well wishes! I appreciate you viewing the video. Yes, taking precautions to protect our bees from the extreme cold and snow is so important! They are counting on us to protect them.

[@laadouaayoub]

Hello, how are you? Fine. My name is Ayoub. I live in Morocco. I am a beekeeper. It was nice to meet you. I wish you success in this field. It is a difficult task. Welcome to Morocco.

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

@@laadouaayoub Hello Ayoub. Very nice to meet you and thank you for the greetings all the way from Morocco! That is very special. I appreciate your well wishes and wish the same to you! All my best, Peg

[@laadouaayoub]

Hello, how are you? Your family is fine. I wish you success and happiness with bees and honey. Nice to meet you

[@darrellhamner4608]

Sorry but “thank you universe” ended for me.

[@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zv]

Hello Darrell. That is a fair and understandable response I am more aware now of how such a phrase can certainly not land well with people. I appreciate your feedback. My best, Peg

[@davecavana1031]

​@@PeggyDeSanto-rr7zvfor one of the most important talks on youtube il give you a pass