Vicentino: "Madonna il poco dolce", Arciorgano solo

[@user-ku8fj1vy2k]

Why we dont use this kind of instrument anymore? I think that having flats sounding different than sharps can open a new world of new possibilites

[@unserekuhe4479]

In Germany there is an Organ build in 2018 by Rieger Orgelbau which has some registers with quartertones. Exactly for that reason. You can find it if you search for the Organ of St. Martin in Kassel. Very interesting :)

[@xuly3129]

19-tone equal temperament has different sharps and flata

[@unserekuhe4479]

@@xuly3129 Makes Sense. Didn't thought about that. Its very intetesting.

[@aaronm.7267]

Well its a pain to build and tune...and plus the sound may not be desirable for some. Though the chords themselves may be more in tune, melodic phrases can sound strange and detuned, especially to people accustomed to equal temperament.

[@bragtime1052]

@@aaronm.7267 most likely not true since diatonic music translates flawlessly from 12-TET to 31-TET, and chromatics could be addressed in a familiar way too. Assuming I interpreted what you meant to say correctly, translating most 12-TET music to 31-TET still sounds normal- it's just what more you could do in 31-TET that's unfamiliar from what we could do in 12-TET.

[@AltoonaYourPiano]

That is so cool! I love meantone temperament organs that have those keys. It's like seeing a new color that hadn't previously existed every time I listen to them.

[@bifeldman]

Compelling and mysterious.

[@JamesSmith-np1hs]

This is beautiful. I very much appriciate this upload!

[@georgH]

That was quite spicy for my modern ears! Very interesting :)

[@peterbond9369]

Remarkable

[@dbadagna]

Is this in meantone tuning? And could you add a brief explanation of the difference between the upper and lower manuals?

[@Studio31plus]

Yes, this is a meantone system, splitting the octave into 31 (almost) equal parts. Both manuals are tuned in the same way (a chain of meantone fifths ranging from gb to b# (lower manual) and from gb to a# (upper manual)), but the upper manual is transposed upwards by the interval of a Diesis (128:125, roughly a fifth of a tone).This system is described by Vicentino in his treatise, printed in Rome 1555.

[@dbadagna]

Thank you for the concise explanation, which can allow viewers to make more sense of this very strange music. One further question: does this piece by Vicentino specify the changing of manuals (up or down one Diesis)? Each time you shift, the effect is a bit disorienting and I am uncertain of the musical reason why the composer would specify this. Usually with a split keyboard it's only certain enharmonic pitches (for example leading tones) that are needed to be slightly higher or lower, but here we hear the entire 10 fingers going up or down the tiny fraction of a half step.

[@arkady0177]

@@Studio31plus so do I understand it right, that there is a "wolf" 5th between a## and gbb, and all other fifths are playable?

[@johaquila]

@@dbadagna Vicentino specified very precisely which notes he wanted. Apart from, for example, d flat being a diesis higher than c sharp, certain notes are marked by a dot as being a diesis higher than otherwise notated. I think he typically created 'enharmonic' progressions as a kind of reinforced chromatic progressions, as well as alternations between normal chords and chords that are diesis higher. When singing this, it feels as if you shift into a strange second gear and back. Without this deliberate use of the entire stock of 31 notes, the lower manual with its relatively standard (for the time) 19 keys would indeed have been enough.

[@caesarsneezer6992]

@@dbadagna what does enharmonic mean?

[@axolotl8694]

brain-stretching. I love this stuff... the idea that 12-TET is not the end of the road. it's just a compromise. digging into history is the way to explode all current ways of thinking.

[@peglegnoid6139]

Studio31 How many micro intervals can be put between octaves before we lose discernment ?

[@Ekvitarius]

There are 1200 cents in an octave, and the human ear can’t really distinguish pitches closer than about 6 cents so, 1200/6 = 200 pitches

[@LawrencedeMartin]

It becomes more a feeling until you spend a lot of time with it. 128 tuning is now popular, and there are composers specifying pitches to 4 cent increments which is 300 pitches per octave. Not all pitches are used, and these generally are slow and drone-like so the beats become the effect.

[@stephenweigel]

Good news, I’ve got a whole video about that kzbin.info/www/bejne/imHVaWx8qZZ_qdE

[@LawrencedeMartin]

When you veer off just intonation and perfect chords of instruments without fixed intervals (voice, unfretted strings, slide tuning like sackbut), then overtone structure has to be considered more closely as part of the more complex harmony. Voicing becomes critical, and this instrument has problems there. This is partly due to the dearth of historical instruments surviving. Re-constructing Vicentino's instruments and Bach's Lautenwerken takes a lot of trial end error. 12EDO has become hegemonic to the degree that any deviations like Baroque temperaments sound off to modern ears, so re-training ears is part of this process. I recommend reading William Sethares on this topic.

[@JohannesKellerCembalo]

I agree and confirm from my own experience with this organ that voicing is a very important factor. How would you describe the problems you observed? Are you referring to the different timbres of the pipes, their spatial placement, their overall sound quality, or something different? Voicing has been a very important factor during the whole construction process, and the specific type of pipes we used is carefully copied after an original 16th-century instrument (the "organo di legno" in the Silberne Kapelle Innsbruck).

[@dfiction]

wowwww

[@mr88cet]

Cool! Interesting that the … great? - the lower keyboard anyway … has B#/Cb and E#/Fb keys, and the swell does not. The upper board is 17 tones per octave and the lower board is 19.

[@Studio31plus]

Actually, this is not a usual two-manual instrument, since both keyboards go to the same row of valves. It is like one single keyboard split into two levels, tuned differently. You normally play on both at the same time, therefore the keys are very small and close to each other. In this specific piece, the two levels are a fifth of a tone apart from each other. The instrument has only one single 8' principale di legno, made of cypress wood. The 'missing' keys on the upper manual are a technical detail, it would be nice to have them, actually!

[@mr88cet]

@@Studio31plus, ah, good clarification; thanks!

[@antoniobudria8806]

I don't get this

[@aaron9437]

what don't you get about it?

[@antoniobudria8806]

@@aaron9437 I don't even know. I'm having traditional education and I'had never seen those weird sharps. But It's less strange for me that those micro-tonals.

[@Sam-gx2ti]

​@@antoniobudria8806 Before the classical era, there was a difference between sharps and flats. If you play E, G-Sharp, and B, on a harpsichord, you get a harmonious chord. However, if you play the same middle note as A-flat, C, and E flat, the pitch was different. For much of western music history, there was no such thing as "enharmonic" notes, because A-flat was different from G-sharp. Also, because of the physics of tuning, not all fifths, octaves, and thirds can be perfect, compromises (called temperaments) had to be made. If you tuned your instrument to have a perfectly harmonious C major chord, the other chords would not be as harmonious. The point of keyboards like this is to make A-flat and G-sharp different notes, and even to add new ones, so that compromises don't have to be made and temperaments don't need to make the intervals less pure. Instruments like this are called Archicembalo and actually first appeared in the 1500s! If this is confusing, Early Music Sources has a great video on temperaments

[@Sam-gx2ti]

​@@antoniobudria8806 The videos are "Just intonation in the renaissance" and "Temperaments overview" I think

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

​@@antoniobudria8806 these ARE microtones

[@TheMikeBrusadelli]

Looks when someone block the traffic

[@NeptuneatDawn]

is this manual pumped oꝛ electric ?

[@gabrieleguercio7208]

1500 instrument Electric?

[@Studio31plus]

You can use this instrument either with a wind blower, or manual bellows.