What is the Objectively BEST Army? - Warhammer Weekly 08092023

[@hephestus15]

I really wish I coulda been there to discuss this live, but man this is probably one of the most psychologically fruitful episodes for anyone who wants to take a deeper look at each AoS faction. Hope this kind of analysis actually gets back to the devs ^^ it's useful information!

[@kyles8707]

Vince whenever you do the “What AoS 4.0 can learn from 40k 10e”episode you should have Campbell from the 40k Badcast on as the guest. He’s an active player of both games and he’d bring a great energy and perspective to the episode. He might not have the most competitive suggestions but they’d definitely be the most fun and unique.

[@MrDavs1985]

Team Tyler for life here! Need someone who says no to Vince sometimes!

[@briochepanda]

Skaven, based soley on the fact that the Poisonwind Globadiers can go into the liquor store to buy cheap beer for the younger armies standing about outside.

[@grandalliancedeath]

I had a ton of fun taking this survey. I'm glad you valued my response. I wanted to talk about my Performance 10/10 for SBGL. I was under the impression it was just ability to win. I see your point now Vince, and retrospectively agree that being above the 55% win rate should not be rewarded as a top score, since the intent of this is to find a good army within reasonable bounds. Retrospectively I would say 7/10

[@MrBoadini]

I took it your way too. Performance it would be top of the pack. And being completely out of bounds is definitely the realm of healthy position.

[@VinceVenturella]

All good and greatly apprecaite the feedback.

[@never_wrong]

The new cannon triggers me hard. From the images of the guy "reloading" the part on the ground and the random crane at the back, the cannon is reloaded by replacing that whole part of the barrel. There are no extra straps to hold down or even in position the part of the barrel with the explosives, and the tiny crane does not even reach the ground. Its a death trap with tiny wheels. "if the formation is on the move then they make do with hastily loaded Grapeshot". First issue is loading any round requires the exact same action. The second is why is it moving if its anchored to the ground on both sides. What if the targets move to the side? They cant move the cannon horizontally with it anchored down like it is modeled.

[@davidsidebotham7730]

Very late to the party here, but a quick clarification re +4 points for Oakenbrow. It's not actually Oakenbrow that is granting those +4 points. It's that Oaken brow becoming viable unlocks accessibility. Post-Oakenbrow, a Sylvaneth player can pretty much pick up "models that look cool" (whether it's bugs, Alarielle, Treelords, or Kurnoths) and have a functional army. In addition, because Oakenbrow simplifies Sylvaneth play, it makes for easier entry for newer players. Mind you, it's still hard, but you won't ever end up in a situation where you bought cool models that turned out to have bad rules (unlike last book). And I love it when you can just buy pretty things and their rules work and represent their lore.

[@HammerofWar]

I liked this episode, because it shows just how much love each of us has for this fascinating game. Someone did a spreadsheet to evaluate armies and people (including me) voluntarily and happily filled it out based on our experiences, and about 200 of us discussed this live, together with the show's hosts. Just think of it. On the scoring itself, and interpretation differences aside, I think people often think about how they felt when they played against a certain faction and rate it mostly based on that feeling, or they heard someone complain about it for so long it must be true. This is probably why a structured approach such as this one might not produce the most expected outcomes. Slaanesh is probably where I felt most misunderstood. I rated the army based on how it is as a whole. I know many people don't enjoy the temptation dice, and highly efficient shooting + multiple unleash hells (such as the ones you'll find in tournament lists) is never nice, but if you think about it as a whole (and that was the intention), the army feels and looks good. Great variety, excellent visual design, good fit for a theme...it's all in the notes, if you get the chance to share them. Sure, 33-55 blissbarb archers is nasty NPE (one of the criteria), but so is 72 squigs, 36 of which fight on death near a hero that they can conga-line to, or teleporting toads that devastate your army with spells while piling up summoning points, and yet both Gitz and Seraphon were hugely praised. We're not evaluating which is the most fun tournament list to play with, we're evaluating battletomes. I love the initiative, but without those big numbers, it's still very much an individual perception game at this point 😊 As always, thanks!

[@VinceVenturella]

It's funny, I would explain my Slaanesh rating the same way, I never play Blissbarbs or against them (I know everyone hates the temptation dice, but its one mechanic). TO me, that is the failure, as a whole, it's not slaanesh. It's something else.

[@HammerofWar]

@@VinceVenturella fair enough. Also shows how much you care for the faction!

[@deliciousrelish]

Time to rewatch for the parts i missed earlier 🦍🐒

[@Emidretrauqe]

What I'm most looking forward to with these new Cities models is the huge conversion potential they have. All AoS armies have it to some extent but given the fact that these are mostly normal human beings it's going to be way easier for people to proxy and convert them into who knows what. Especially with that Pontifex model.

[@Kinhussar]

I wanna see non-chaos northern tribes cities or Bretons of Sigmar, or Cities of Sylvania. I think you are absolutely right.

[@Emidretrauqe]

@nikjkeenan2866 It would be fairly easy. Even the Command Corps could just be a group of completely random characters that you just assign those roles to.

[@Goon94]

Those are both great ideas that could really be fun! @@Kinhussar

[@matthewstrike7719]

Love the Blacktalon warband, wondering if its an indication that GW is planning to upgrade all the older Stormcast models into Thunderstrike armour.

[@VinceVenturella]

We shall see

[@lestrike2707]

@@VinceVenturellaa reliable source on TGA says that most will get an update soon-ish. :)

[@adamredmond3136]

Just looking at that rumour engine image again, it looks like they're fallen skeletons on the steps of an alter & you can see a horned skull at the top in the distance. Def a terrain piece of some description, maybe Faction Terrain for Flesheaters or something?! Thanks for the show guys 😁

[@rotm4447]

The tool box for std just isn't there.

[@Kinhussar]

and the competitive parts of std are probably the most expensive stuff in Aos (cultist spam or Varanguard Spam)

[@jordivermeulen2519]

The LRL score near the start was also missing the fourth category in the total score.

[@NegativeNezzy]

Brand new player and painter, super torn between Sylvaneth and Slaves. I adore the whole Sylvaneth model range, especially Elarielle who I will eventually paint regardless but I'm so intimidated by them only being strong if we use the super complex movement shenanigans, kinda makes it feel like I would be making the game less enjoyable for me.

[@matthewdobson100]

I enjoyed this as an exercise and it was interesting to hear some of the discussion. However, maybe i'm wrong but watching this it felt like a lot of armies came in around 110-120, and then at the end looking at the tables it reinforced that sense a bit with a lot of similar scores in some categories. I wonder if this approach has fallen foul of not using the full range of scores in some categories and hence flattening the overall variability. An army could jump up into the 130ish range just by spiking one or two categories. It may just be that a lot of armies are very similar but I feel it's a issue with this type of subjective scoring because people typically don't use the full range of scores (issue is compounded by the number of categories).

[@davisbailey6808]

Could not agree more regarding FEC…as Bret player in Fantasy, I would jump feet first into the army if the grand delusion was actually expressed strongly in the model range.

[@hobbyton3575]

One metric I would love players to rate would be “favourite opponent” for armies. I play Lumineth quite often and mostly I win, but I rarely enjoy facing that army. I can face ironjawz or Stormcast and loose all day and still enjoy myself. If we focus too much on NPE, we tend to rate harschly, but maybe we could start to talk more about GPE “great play experience”. 😊

[@ringodeathstarr9795]

Glad to see you guys. Y’all always make Wednesday fell a little less Wednesday

[@eduardorodriguezcorrea7386]

Great episode always pleasure to hear while painting!!

[@cml4914]

Enjoying the dog interlude

[@chubbychalupa4175]

“She who TikToks in the night” is now my new name for my wife 😂😂😂

[@thomaskunz8553]

I miss Tom. Bring him back when youre talking the cities book! I need his tall short-stack knowledge of dwarves!

[@VinceVenturella]

Tom will be back soon for sure. :)

[@CrazyTom34]

"You don't know that I'm a teacher" Also a teacher, game recognized game as soon as I saw your grading rubric

[@robertmoffitt1336]

I hit like for the chaos! Chaos is the name of our German Shepherd!

[@warhq]

Having just collected a massive Tzeentch force, it's oppressive in expense and model availability. 100 models to field 20 pink on the field...and 6 boxed sets for this.... Guild of Summoners, I now have Kairos and 4 x LoC.... This is a me problem, but just saying ;)

[@anarchistkobold4375]

Not watched yet, but my vote is Skaven. I'll let you know in 2 hrs if I'm right xD

[@jackkreeger6617]

I come for the best AOS content on the net but stay for the dogs. Great show as always.

[@ChubbyChalupa]

I cant seem to find the template to evaluate my armies?

[@gregoryjordan1740]

Liked for hounds of chaos 👍

[@fitzgigler]

Tom is Close to being demoted to friend of the show

[@VinceVenturella]

So very close.

[@starslayer2438]

Kinda mean to both Tom and Fyreslayers that you did not ask him to grade that army. :P

[@VinceVenturella]

He was travelling over the weeks sadly and didn't have time. :)

[@leovaeg]

Is there any way we can access these XLS docs to view them in full?

[@VinceVenturella]

Sadly I didn't have a way to share them out, shared them in the discord .

[@byzantinebyron6947]

Looking forward to this, I'm kind of between projects at the moment so will be good to see if this inspires any sort of project in me

[@markpandelidis2079]

I can't find the spread sheet?

[@MrRockets182]

Good show. Tyler's mic is pretty wild in this one though, ouch.

[@keithrogers6876]

I always get a chuckle when LRL gets discussed. It's one of those armies that if you pilot it well people think your army is too strong.. But if you don't play it like that your army just does nothing and gets lifted.. It also suffers from being most complained about courtesy of 2nd edition NPE nonsense & way too much Teclis + Sentinel spam.. One of my favourite armies in fluff and play style, I loved playing 3.0 with my combined arms LRL lists (no Teclis or Sentinels and refused to take Total Eclipse on principle). But over time all the negative energy from the other side of the table just wore me down and killed the fun of it.. I ended up selling them off and getting rid of them..

[@HammerofWar]

I get what you mean. But I risked evaluating them well anyway, because one list or one unit doesn't make an army. Visually stunning, lore-wise coherent and to a degree, rules-wise intrincate, it's an interesting book, even if not well suited for beginners.

[@keithrogers6876]

I do really like the models and army lore, is why LRL are my second favourite army. I just got tired of fighting against the negativity, if you are still fighting the good fight I cheer you on! Funnily enough my favourite army for models and army lore is SCE, I don't play them anymore either lol. I still buy the books to read and keep an eye on their situation. They just have wayyyyy too many units that look awesome but do nothing.. I am really hoping that 4.0 SCE will see a bunch of the units rolled into each other, and the number of different warscrolls cut in half.. maybe then they can all be useful.

[@1989eol]

You're wrong! ... now to watch the Video

[@steverandall8163]

Trying not to feel shallow and dumb. In general, I always feel smarter after your podcast.

[@VinceVenturella]

That's wonderful to hear!

[@lorenzosgarallino]

some colours could help in presenting ^_^

[@DeeperWithDiego]

KO has nothing to do with Capitalism. lol. There are no individual rights in any society in age of sigmar and no proper government protecting private property. "Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned." Just a minor quibble, as nearly no one knows what Capitalism actually is. Love the video! Such an amazing 2 hours of ranking and scoring!!! I play Sons of Behemat, and they sure are a tough time to enjoy in age of sigmar... But I do love the big babies!

[@j.b.b.8901]

Is there any way to have acces to the spreadsheet (in protected version) to read all the comments in column E (that are partially hidden in the video)? Thanks. :)

[@VinceVenturella]

Not yet, but I am going to share it out tonight for the raw version at least.

[@Leviticushateford]

Great show as always thanks for all you do!

[@SeanDitchfield]

Dogs are the truest agents of chaos

[@RadioFreeHammerhal]

Where is the template buddy?! Also, would be cool to see an aregstenof the armies you guys had multiple scored for Also turn it into a survey and have s bunch of people send stuff in! Although that's a ton of data

[@VinceVenturella]

All in due time. :)

[@RadioFreeHammerhal]

@@VinceVenturella but I want it noooooow!

[@bingobassen]

Can somebody please explain what/who Timmy and Johnny are? I asume they aren't people, but it is really confusing when Johnny shows up in the middle of SCE list with his units

[@VinceVenturella]

They are psychographic profiles, you can find whole videos on them here - studio.kzbin.infoiemNBE97tl4/edit Here is the video we did recently exploring them in warhammer - studio.kzbin.infogo9hWFVhzw4/edit

[@skreechverminking2227]

Hi there vince love the video. If you need somebody, who is a bit younger then you yet has played…. A bit more then halve his live skaven (so 13 years or so) that can give some feedback onto the skaven I will happily oblige. It would also be interesting considering that I love the skaven with my heart content, but hate the current book more then anything else in this world😉

[@ProrokLebioda]

Big iron on his hip!

[@TerrierHalo]

Thanks for the discussion, a lot of it was beyond my range of experience and knowledge but it was fun to listen to. I guess the big question is, have Vince picked up Cobra Kai the boardgame yet? Mostly for research for the upcoming Karate Dojo miniature agnostic game… ;)

[@VinceVenturella]

I was not even aware this existed, but I must look into it.

[@derekgehring2771]

I miss the normal time slot. I really wish this show was in line with previous shows, where the survey went out for a time then you all analyzed the community response. As it was, this just seemed like 'here are two random peoples opinions' which doesn't say very much. Also, maybe a bit more definition on the terms (seems like over performing armies gained points because of it, when they should have had that docked against them- see the SBG guy's opinion).

[@VinceVenturella]

Don't worry, we will return to the normal time slot next week, but this guest was in Germany. Also, I was interested in the individual opinions first. We can certainly aggregate into a survey and likely will, but deep experts in a thing also have value when they provide a solid rationale. :)

[@Vortid]

Heh, heh, my thought when you said: Would you like a die? ... Would you like a die? ... Would you like a die? ... Would you like to die? YESSSS PLEASE END IT

[@VinceVenturella]

Exactly :)

[@aaroncraig7744]

Shocked nobody filled out a sheet for Fyreslayers so they could rate them as 0's on everything. (hi, i'm a fyreslayer fan, and I'd still rate them really low for most things)

[@davidwasilewski]

Chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla. Discuss 🤣😂

[@LordBillygoat]

Did Fyreslayers make any list?

[@VinceVenturella]

We didn't have any Fyreslayers players to take the survey sadly.

[@LordBillygoat]

@@VinceVenturella not to worry. I'm guessing they wouldn't have scored too highly, with a limited model range and a decpeptivley complex nature to play?

[@stephenmercerProductions]

Objectively? I'm not sure. Sarcastically... it's Kruleboyz.

[@Umberhulk-yr1ul]

Dang, I showed up late to the party again. So did the Fyreslayers win?

[@TylerEmerson]

Not only didn’t they win, they weren’t even invited to the party, per the Fyreslayers Discrimination policy of this channel. I don’t make the rules here. If you want to start a petition in protest, I’m happy to sign it.

[@VinceVenturella]

I think Tyler nailed it. ;) (We didn't have anyone who played fyreslayers to fill it out). :)

[@danajadzia3390]

No DoK or IDK :-(

[@VinceVenturella]

I thought we had 1 IDK in there, I swore we talked IDK once, but maybe I missed it. That's my bad.

[@BlastastiC]

Chaos Dwarfs - Chaos Dwarfs are objectively the best REAL army.

[@ghostmutton]

Give me a swing at those surveys. Someone has to make up for all of these SBG apologists.

[@davidcampbell621]

Running through kruleboyz specifically and I gave them 76/150, barely a pass. 27/55 playstyle. A little complex, poor internal balance, little list variety (theres one with 400 points of wiggle room), low internal power, but it nonbos with most of its ally options. 5/10 NPE, ranged mortal shooting, mortal wound slot machine damage, whole army can't be shot, dirty trick RNG, and dissapearin act forces enemy units into reserve after deployment. Nothing for spike here and little synergy for johnny. 12/35 Power Poor overall rules quality, gobsprakk is good in the current season and have been competitively unviable from day 1. Even 4-1 is an outlier. Current stats are definitely skewed. 21/40 versimilitude Psychological warfare the army is a great concept, and the models look great and fit the theme. Huge failure in both feel of play and psycho profile. Lorewise KB are absolutely spike/johnny and the army should have a big focus on strong debuffs and cunning tricks. Its an army that does psychological warfare to a detriment, even using it when they could easily win the fight anyway. The army plays like a gunline castle, with little debuff capabilities, and mass infantry and monsters. I gave a 2/10 but that might be too high. I really wanted to give negative bonus points because while each individual model looks the part very well, the units the army has access to: infantry and hero monsters, do not fit how the army should fight. Other 16/20 Cheap, easy to collect, lots of model variety, pretty easy to paint with contrasts actually.

[@VinceVenturella]

It hurts, but it's fair.

[@justicerice4702]

I dont care what you make as long as little g there

[@daswookie79]

15:16 Cannon or Clawlord is the most boring TikTok challenge of 2023.

[@VinceVenturella]

Amazing.

[@dannythompson9642]

👍👍

[@jonhjalmarsson]

Tyler can you please try to talk slower? Sometimes it’s so fast that it sounds like you’re rapping 😂

[@VinceVenturella]

Now e need a Tyler raps segment.

[@TylerEmerson]

I’ve now been accused of talking too loudly _and_ too quickly on this show. My life is now complete. :) I’ll try to be more conscientious at saying more with less, at an average speed. When you’re known for 4hr shows, you get self-conscious about talking too much, which probably contributes to hitting the gas. :)

[@jonhjalmarsson]

@@TylerEmerson ❤️

[@jonhjalmarsson]

@@VinceVenturella yes 🙌

[@lemsdarkapprentice2535]

OMG, why are people always going back and forth, wasting time and energy about "What is the best army?" ? It's like a selfish child who just says "I wanna win all ov da time, so gimme da best wun" . Here's the skinny: The absolute best army... The one which is ideal for you...Is the one whose models and/or lore you connect with the most + which you really want to explore. That's the big secret. Debating about anything else is just hot air + a useless exercise + a pointless waste of life's time and energy. We've only got 1 life, please try to make it fulfilling and fruitful, instead of nonsense like this. [el'sda2].

[@VinceVenturella]

For fun and entertainment I suppose? It can be fun to discuss this because it reveals WHY we enjoy and are attracted to certain armies or thing, to better understand ourselves, the games we play and how they are constructed. To better lead an examined life I suppose.

[@amazinghayes1]

This is horrendously dull.

[@VinceVenturella]

We do dive deep into the discussion, its not for everyone. :)

[@georgesutherlandhoward4417]

Saw the title, immediately clicked the link. I've just started watching. This is gonna get S P I C E Y