[Vinesauce] Vinny - The Windows Are Gone

The Windows Are Gone on Steam ► store.steampowered.com/app/25...
Vinny plays The Windows Are Gone live on Vinesauce
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Stream date: October 22nd, 2023
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OOctober 22nd 2023 Stream:
[Pre-Stream] Inner Motion Music, TwitchCon, Gnorts Made New Friends, Restream, Cities: Skylines II ► • [Pre-Stream] Inner Mot...
Old School ► • [Vinesauce] Vinny - Ol...
[BRB Talk] "School" by Nirvana ► • [BRB Talk] "School" by...
The Windows Are Gone ► • [Vinesauce] Vinny - Th...
Spooptober Horror Games 2023 #2 ► • [Vinesauce] Vinny - Sp...
#Vinesauce #Vinny #Spooptober

[@vinesaucefullsauce]

ChatReplay ► chatreplay.stream/watch?v=2nKwZDqy0a8 Chrome Extension (Compatible with Edge) ► chatreplay.stream/chrome Firefox Add-on ► chatreplay.stream/firefox

[@thegriffin88]

So this showed up on search without the usual thumbnail and I had to take a few more glances at the thumbnail and the uploader to believe it was actually you.

[@gogogagagugu2134]

guys will literally create a grief-metaphor-mold-baby in their basement before going to therapy

[@ShuckleII]

I can't believe how stupid this comment is, I can't decide which flaw to even complain about, maybe at least how it's definitionally misandry. And of course it's from gogogagagugu lmao

[@thatoneblueperson9286]

average guy behavior tbh

[@ShuckleII]

@@thatoneblueperson9286 average person behavior, it doesn't make sense that you're limiting it to one gender

[@chainedhex]

​@@ShuckleIIwomen actually create a grief-metaphor-mold-baby in their attic before going to therapy. get it right you idiot

[@dakabaka4912]

​@@ShuckleII Men and women are fundamentally wired differently. Going crazy and thinking something inanimate is your baby is more female behavior because of how much empathy and attachment is hardwired for a mother to have for her child. Men are less likely to go to therapy as men are not wired to work out there psychological issues like women do. Males are more capable of resolving issues internally through work and life as they do not have as heavy of a reliance on the social environment and frankly guys come off as whiny when they talk about themselves too much. (which they absolutely do) Yeah there's exceptions, bla bla bla, do whatever works for you.

[@blobbem]

You see, the good ending is good because the mould and the leaking goes away, saving a fortune on potential repair costs.

[@tenchimuyo69]

I am reminded of a comedian who had a joke about how a becoming relief that strange noises in your house at night are just a ghost, as hiring a plumber to inspect the noises in the pipes is more expensive.

[@LumpyTouch]

I'm really digging the sound design of this game

[@abstrusepaladin]

I have no related joke.

[@rattlemebones7413]

Are you working on any games atm Lumpy?

[@LumpyTouch]

I am! A few, one's almost done@@rattlemebones7413

[@Vodyabum]

100% the sound and music really stood out to me in this one, the extra care on such things really sells the atmosphere

[@CULTOFARTRA]

@@abstrusepaladinI’m really digging the touch design of this lumpy

[@Kain128]

Literally my only problem with this game is that it doesn't let you fully unpack your stuff into the house.

[@parasaurolofun]

It does, but the game is kind of glitchy. I watched another person play and his game crashed three times- I'm glad that didn't happen here at least.

[@CarterArts]

Yeah it needs a freeplay house decorator mode

[@KORRUPT_NOIZE]

​@@parasaurolofunManlyBadassHero moment

[@parasaurolofun]

@@KORRUPT_NOIZE Yep. He had terrible luck with that game. I guess Vinny played a patched version.

[@Daxien]

It's hilarious that Vinny's so used to glitching games that his first instinct upon things becoming uninteractable and every exit from the house disappearing is "hmmm must be a glitch."

[@mannmctrash]

Vinny is like King Midas, except when Vinny touches something it turns to ass.

[@tahunuva4254]

​@@mannmctrash Glitchfinger 🎺 He's the man The man with the midass touch

[@partytrumpet]

I thought it was a bug and quit the game 😞

[@Ilikewater-andice]

the absolute state of modern gaming

[@Mario583a]

@@mannmctrash Glitch Goblin Vine.

[@JesusGreenBL]

"For the record MDickie did not make this game" Okay but now I really want to see an MDickie horror game.

[@Adamulos]

Next MDickie game idea - summer camp with the same structure as school/prison but there is a murderer AMOGUS

[@Double512]

the jason-like kills you with wrestling moves

[@thethingoid]

"Would you like to buy this knife off me for 20$" YES or NO

[@joelhatterini6392]

So thoughtful of the developer to craft such a lovingly made PSA about the dangers of black mold.

[@AMan-xz7tx]

or suspicious food from strangers, though I'm sure it was a bit of both involved here

[@commandantcarpenter]

55:50 fun fact about labyrinths: they are commonly understood as complex mazes, but in Christian traditions a labyrinth is often a single, winding path that appears complicated from the outside, but actually has no forks or dead ends. it is meant to be walked as a contemplative exercise, wherein one follows the path to the center, and then follows the same path back out.

[@raistlinlove1307]

W fact, thanks actually

[@Przemko27Z]

Interesting, what Christian traditions in particular? "Christian" is a rather wide category.

[@antonridgway7833]

​​@@Przemko27ZThere's a famous one in the Chartres cathedral from the early 13th century, which predates the Catholic-Protestant split... so most Christian traditions can trace back to that I guess

[@griffyt209]

​@Przemko27Z my mothers Episcopalian church has a round labyrinth outside of it. Though, so did my middle school, so take that as you will

[@jacobfalardeau676]

Toronto has a bunch of labyrinths hidden around the city and exactly like you said they're just winding paths that you follow and contemplate.

[@pharoahcaraboo9610]

a fine addition to the 'the house is alive and it hates you' type horror. really really loved the sound design and the cinematography in the opening sequence was great.

[@junowo8794]

yeah, massive fan of how much I got House of Leaves/ANATOMY vibes from it.

[@lrbag8269]

Monster House lmao

[@DanielFerreira-ez8qd]

​@@lrbag8269 the PEAK of the genre

[@bolicob]

Decorating your house in a horror game is actually genius because it turns the house into a perceived "safe space", making the horror that occurs there all the more visceral.

[@robooz]

Especially with how it doesn't fully allow you to get comfortable despite your best efforts, the house gets creakier, the doors and windows slowly disappear one by one, and the music gets gradually more uncomfortable, keeping the illusion of an opportunity to create a safe space just out of reach before stripping away.

[@Fredomato]

The Unpacking sequel went in a bold new direction.

[@sarmin8008]

The original had the grief but none of the mold, truly an enhanced experience

[@hangry3102]

That creepy suspenseful ambience building as you unpack one thing after the other, it conveys such a feeling of something wrong is happening even when you're so focused on unpacking that you don't notice the windows and doors have disappeared. Chefs kiss psychological horror shit honestly.

[@theuncalledfor]

I thought that every object you unpack makes one of the windows disappear until they're all gone. That would be why the ambiance amps up as you unpack. That being said, I didn't play the game myself.

[@HellfireComms]

The INSTANT rebuttal of the ending being different nearly obliterated my sides.

[@hierax49]

finally a game that will allow foreigners to understand what it's like being brazilian

[@Hambs23]

Or the mental state of a foreigner after visiting Brazil

[@KimeramonRocks]

The windows are gone in Brazil?

[@TioPatacas]

There are no windows in Brazil The concept of windows are non-existant Glass panes are a myth made by Big Window

[@neutralclownpose3928]

seeing the pineapple jar + water filter combo was so funny. immediate nationality reveal

[@burgbass]

I am glad this “house horror” is kind of becoming a genre of its own. Always believed Anatomy was possibly one of the best horror games out there in terms of how well it just builds that encroaching feeling of dread, and just keeps piling it on and on.

[@tobiasmattsson9285]

The writing in that game is so fucking good too

[@leightonpetty4817]

House of Leaves is such an amazing horror story in this style, I’m so glad MyHouse brought more eyes to it

[@riioorii]

YES!!! anatomy was a masterpiece, and kitty horrorshow is genuinely one of the most talented writers out there! her work is so fantastic and im so glad that i came across the video with all the tape audios.

[@kenpatchiramasama1076]

Monster house truly was ahead of its time

[@griffyt209]

"The House is Alive" is definitely one of my top 3 favorite horror tropes ever

[@LordMoldoma]

This reminds me of a parable from the Buddhist texts. After losing her only child, Kisa Gotami became desperate and asked if anyone could help her. Her sorrow was so great that many thought she had lost her mind. An old man told her to see the Buddha. The Buddha told her that he could bring the child back to life if she could find white mustard seeds from a family where no one had died. She desperately went from house to house, but to her disappointment, she could not find a house that had not suffered the death of a family member. Finally the realization struck her that there is no house free from mortality. So too here is no household free of mortality. Our only option is to move on.

[@SpicyAvocado]

42:16 Please tell me I'm not the only one who felt their soul leave their body at this exact moment. I felt my heart stop

[@4storyboss]

can't wait for the sequel called: "the windows are back"

[@dancinswords]

"i got a Mac"

[@JeanMarceaux]

The sequel "Gone With The Windows"

[@liswifi]

i watch vinesauce before i sleep. every time vinny reads character dialogue, i think "ah yes, he reads me a bedtime story".

[@Przemko27Z]

The line the character says when looking at the ungrown mold baby about knowing he needs to deal with it, but finds it so hard to even think about he just ignores it instead is so *on point* for some issues people deal with. Say, bottling up one's feelings about a traumatic event, because they can't bear to actually process them. Feels like the game was a good execution of the "the real monster was trauma" because it's a game about trauma that explores the theme through horror metaphor rather than a horror game including themes of trauma to seem deep.

[@HoundBlueDragon]

About this game, it's noteworthy to say it's a Brazilian game by a single person. If you've played/seen "The Building 71 Incident", that was his first game, this is his second. Actually surprised that Vinny got around to playing this so quickly, I know Sunday chat isn't too kind but I saw a lot of positive comments especially considering this is solo work from a guy who is just starting out.

[@danem2215]

It's actually really incredible for a single person to do on their second go-around. Also quite different and more polished than a lot of other Brazilian indie games

[@Moonhack95]

Come to Brazil

[@victoriacecilia3926]

Brasil número 1 campeão do mundoo

[@OrigamistGabriel]

Wow, as soon as I saw the plate numbers on the truck, this had to be a Brazilian game, or at the very least, a game set in Brazil, thanks a lot for the info o/

[@lasarousi]

This game has the best representation for 'intrusive thoughts' I've seen in a good while. Props to the creator.

[@graysonrogers-barnes6302]

As someone with OCD, this actually made me more excited to see how this plays out-

[@thepowerfulpaet4937]

Time to buy a carbon monoxide detector.

[@designatedred]

The atmosphere of this game is great. Freaking orb, I swear to god.

[@maxraccoon3529]

"in my dreams, I see this house" Me: are we doing a Silent Hill thing? Vinny, immediately after: Is this Silent Hill?

[@Wayte13]

Mold Poisoning: The Game

[@ImmaLittlePip]

This house had windows in it

[@George_vv]

The truck was missing it's windows by the end, obviously... That was like the most important part of the story!

[@Paranuui]

They're gone now

[@CopiousDoinksLLC]

...But did it have people in it? kzbin.info/www/bejne/rl7Tm2uFqd6CaKssi=zESlTtjmYWOphaWx

[@itzakenny]

This house has people in it ref?

[@ImmaLittlePip]

@@itzakenny Yup

[@KatarupaYT]

I feel like the themes and concept have kind of been done to death at this point but it was better executed than most

[@morgantodd3748]

Yeah, getting pretty bored of horror things that are actually about being sad.

[@carelesswhisker4155]

Could you give an example of a horror movie that isnt "about being sad"?

[@morgantodd3748]

@@carelesswhisker4155 Halloween. Now piss off.

[@tahunuva4254]

​@@carelesswhisker4155Cabin in the woods Nightmare on elm street Barbarian

[@Przemko27Z]

The themes and concept are pretty much horror staples, arguably. And as staples, there's going to be a lot of underwhelming or otherwise bad executions. Especially with a theme so hard to actually pull off.

[@LunaPerspective]

Finally. A skinamarink-like.

[@hangry3102]

This game had a really good "The Shining" feel to it. I even feel like they could've leaned harder into the slow suspense and creepy shit to simulate the feeling of going insane and second guessing yourself about everything, but it had some great moments either way.

[@JoeShmowYo]

i like how blatant the metaphor is in this game. i’m not someone who typically pays much attention to that kind of stuff unless someone points it out. also i like that the meaning is pretty unambiguous and obvious without compromising how effective the delivery is. its well written, well paced, and is entirely cohesive. this is just good art.

[@morgantodd3748]

Fuck "the real horror is being sad". I wish The Babadook had never been written now.

[@lloydau3610]

Well said. It's simplistic yet quite good.

[@sylvester5022]

​@@morgantodd3748ah yes, because horror has famously never been about the disturbed within the tragic. What was Frankenstien about again?

[@morgantodd3748]

@@sylvester5022 Frankenstein isn't scary.

[@sylvester5022]

@@morgantodd3748 most horror isn't if you're over 9 years old lol, and Frankenstein was a very disturbing novel at the time, it's culturally relative. Point is, most all decent horror products over the centuries deal with a piece of human nature that most would consider disturbed/tragic

[@jammhammer]

was eating a royal sugar cookie right when vin said that. the type where the icing is hard. spooky

[@neartheplumtree]

i laughed at “scary cube” at first but damn i was impressed by the end of this.

[@Mrnotpib]

I have never seen a game who’s lighting effects and sounds said “Modern game for pc” and everything else graphically said “Nokia Ngage” and still made cohesive sense.

[@Levyathyn]

Very nice. Atmosphere is an A+, and the sound design was easily in the top of current video game design.

[@fleurdelis329]

"Now I can finish unpacking" Vinny I want you to know the comedic timing after all that horror was so perfect it had me roaring.

[@GameparkGames]

Gotta say the way this is represented is fairly accurate, I actually had an experience like this in real life and it's the craziest thing ever, it feels like sleep paralysis but it starts in a dream you were aware in. It ended up with me in darkness being choked and it eventually stopped but it scared me half to death when it happened. This gave me vibes of that. My experience came a few months after I lost my grandfather. I don't really have vivid dreams I am aware in either.

[@MishKoz]

48:05 I don't know why but that thing on the ceiling made me jump a little. It's not even a jumpscare but it caught me really off-guard.

[@escupiman]

I wonder if this game is the long awaited sequel to "Jobs Gone"

[@RepublicOfUs]

Brad still doesn't know what he's gonna do.

[@Purplestufff]

DOWS GONE

[@elio7610]

Dewgong.

[@HeartzMelody]

43 minutes in and I finally realised it was a game about grief and depression

[@mikacookiegaming1294]

This game was a fucking trip oh my god. It was cool to watch and terrifying Did Vinny's reading of some of the dialogue almost make anyone else cry?

[@ngwoo]

The main menu called it X instead of Twitter so I expected this game to start trying to sell me bitcoins but it was actually really good

[@dfquartzidn6151]

I like how in the beginning, it sounds like Vinny and chat are moving into a house together as if they’re one big family.

[@KumquatPornography]

there were windows here. they're gone now.

[@sbordash03]

@vinesauce the cookie you're referring to is just a sugar cookie with 'royal' icing, which is literally just beat egg whites and sugar left to harden on top. Extremely popular Italian cookie and they're the best

[@hoyitsmiguel]

The wildest thing was our MC being aple to move in/unpack and close on this house in the span of two weeks Also cool to see more Brazilian games featured/getting traction

[@Freak80MC]

I absolutely love how watching one of the newest Vinesauce Vinny videos can give me that same hit of feels/nostalgia as watching him a few years back. It's so nice to be hit with old feels like that especially as depression kicks my ass in the present and I don't feel much of anything.

[@dacrylalia]

This game is such a great homage to both Silent Hill and House of Leaves and the specific intersections of psychological horror they achieve, especially HoL with the intense use of the red and blue color palettes (and chroma key blue being the color of the dialogue box). I also like that we're "watching" the videos through the biased eyes of the PC's dialogue the same way HoL readers "watch" The Navidson Record through a biased transcript. So many little nods I could list, but basically I just thought this was super cool. Thanks for playing it Vinny!

[@brzyrt9714]

The navidson record does not exist

[@crakhaed]

Thanks for sharing! I knew it had to be referencing those two

[@grizzlywhisker]

This is a pretty neat game for something made by one dude. Kind of reminds me of that horror film with Ethan Hawke, I think it's called Sinister.

[@crakhaed]

Was that the one where he was a writer and there was a babaghoul?

[@lithium444]

0/10 IGN score: “Windows spotted in first 5 seconds of game”

[@sirrealism7300]

When is the skinamarink going to show up?

[@WilfredCthulu]

This didn't end up being anything too pleasantly surprising for me but the title at least made me think of "Mr. Krabs the front door's missing!"

[@slightlymoistguyfieri6070]

I like how the house looks

[@LunaSolarys]

Suddenly Linux

[@Bluerage98]

When's someone going to do a horror game where you gotta find the haunted dvd's or mini disc's

[@VenoMantis]

haunted PSP UMDs

[@ChronoSquare]

download the haunted digital release

[@Bluerage98]

@@ChronoSquare the haunted Steam codes👻😱

[@CarterArts]

There must come a point one day when Vinny stops and thinks, "Actually, maybe I should adjust my mouse DPI settings"

[@skirdus367]

sounds like a nice game about someone switching from a pc to a mac

[@Mario583a]

or Linux.

[@woosaaa3486]

you sound permanently nervous and I dig it.

[@VagineerHuur]

No windows, no ventilation, all mold

[@fakajuu9519]

Love some proper house horror.

[@RyujiRoyalSkull]

Really liked this game. I think they did a fantastic job with this and the fact that it's free is amazing

[@Champiness]

Good video for me to watch with a sense of superiority as I activate the newly-purchased air purifier in my bedroom

[@CreamusG]

I believe you're thinking of Anginetti. Like a lemon flavored cakeish cookie.

[@captainthreethumbs175]

That game was fucking amazing

[@DUCKWAD_ONLINE]

the Elephant's Foot of Depression

[@BrickleYourFrickle]

Honestly, the parts of this stream where he reads the dialog/text makes me realize how calming of a speaking voice buuti has. Mild and monotonous, but not in a bad way. I would pay actual money for an audiobook with him as the narrator.

[@LeudieBlues]

Really well done short horror game, would mold again/10 windows

[@err0rc0degames]

Well done little game

[@TheGamingAbyss]

Love when Vinny plays these types of games

[@ManiakMonkey]

53:40 Now crawl, crawl on the ground into that mold baby

[@caliwagg1898]

Wow, I actually started to tear up towards the end. I have depression and the black hole of despair that it makes me feel sometimes is what I imagine the POV character was feeling, especially in the bad ending. And like, sometimes you get this burst of energy and optimism to get your life back together, like when he decided to decorate the house and make it a home, but then just as suddenly it goes away and you're left with a horrible pit in your stomach even if everyone else is telling you you'll be okay. Hopefully that made sense if anyone ever reads this comment. Anyway, don't stay in a place with black mold either. That'll fuck with your perception.

[@graysonrogers-barnes6302]

That was surprisingly good.

[@sonicrockz1011]

When he mentioned the anise cookies!! I love those

[@xTKsauce]

Something that bothered me is you find a VHS tape and the game gives you a novel instead and the whole horror is the trauma your character has was very easy to tell. Still a great experience.

[@Przemko27Z]

I feel like it being easy to tell is arguably part of what makes it effective as a theme. It's not really a plot twist, it's what the game is about. Making it a plot twist tends to make it a bit harder to do the theme justice without giving the twist away. Making it quite clear from the start that that's the point helps explore it better, imo.

[@GamayObera]

The Windows jokes are so inevitable, that even the title's font is the same used in Windows Destruction *thumbnails* (even tilted).

[@tastethepainbow]

Oh damn, didn't know Vinny switched to Mac

[@cataclystp]

congrats uve won the worst joke i smirked at in 2023 award

[@juanes8931]

almost asked for time stamp, cheeky bastard

[@EngineerMonkey-zp3yj]

He macked to Switch, too.

[@satzukaze]

or Linux

[@SleepyBoi_9000]

Whoa didn’t know they made a Skinamarink game

[@tednugent1100]

crazy how far down i had to scroll to find this

[@drrracche]

average carbon monoxide experience

[@jmcgaggles6822]

Family trauma and grief are great ingredients to in horror. I don't think it's overused because writing the sort of horror story that balances complex relationships , sadness and growth along with said horror is hard mode writing

[@Draveyarg]

I would second this and add that those narratives change depending on who's telling them. Loss is something we all deal with so it can be a good subject if executed creatively

[@sold0ut210]

Most horror games go the actually overused "It was me who murdered them! I am the monster!" route, in a blatant and unsubtle, exaggerated way. In this one, the man is simply struggling with perceived guilt while his family is realistically supportive.

[@vanessaashford9203]

yeah I don't see how its overused when the majority of games these days still either go the hackneyed "protagonist is actually a murderer" or "everything actually was just a haunting or some other generic paranormal phenomenon" route, especially American-made horror games, not to mention (as Vinny mentions) the reliance on jumpscares. Maybe it's my age, but real life trauma is far more relatable to me than spoopy ghosts or tall-faceless-monster-that's-totally-not-a-slenderman-ripoff.

[@sold0ut210]

@@vanessaashford9203 Nah, that's not an age thing. And while there is nothing wrong with option B of monsters just being paranormal, I saw a saturation point of option A a few years ago - when a youtuber I used to watch started laughing about and mocking a game for being *another* high budget "I, the family dad whose family mysteriously died, turned out to have been the murderer all along" game. If I remember right, he started outright laughing about it because of how often he played the exact same story beat at that point - and that was years ago.

[@LL-yd8zz]

I like that this game does metaphors pretty well. So many games do symbolism in a way that has no surface level, its all symbols - but this game can be taken both as a guy dealing with the trauma of accidentaly killing his family, or getting his cookies laced and suffering from black mold poisoning and tripping balls.

[@tfairfield42]

I could not even breath for the last 20 minutes

[@koda_pop]

The writing was really good, fun gem

[@neo3324]

I just want to share this observation because, i tougth it was really interesting. In the game, the leakage that the protagonist finds on the basement makes him feel annoyed, since well, he just woke up from a nap, but as the game goes, the leak gets worse and worse, suddenly changing into a puddle of a unknown chemical that makes the protagonist sick, lightheaded and nauseous. But has the game starts to take a twist, the puddle that turns out to be a slime suddenly starts taking from of a unknown mutated thing that makes noises of a crying baby, this is accompanied by the vision his wife Jessica, which Jessica treats this slime as his baby Laura (Which is not obviously). Then later Jessica tried to convice the protagonist to join her to she and him can feed the slime, which in this case, he doesn't, and then later Jessica get eaten by the slime. I know many people can interpretate this in many ways since its a metaphor, but for me, i see the slime as something that the protagonist has been living for a while and starts to catch up to him and wants to fix it, and the reason it catched up to him is when the puddle starts to mutate and get bigger and bigger and way repulsing and horrid meaning that the gulit that he has been living has been affecting him for such a grand amount, that he cannot deny that there is a problem that needs to have a decision to be solved, that is, on this situation, on joining Jessica or not, which means that if you join her, you are just giving up on newer opportunities and sink into your problems until you cannot get out of them and finally drown on them, and if you dont, you are recognizing your problem as a part of your identity and finally fix it, grating you the power of getting out of the labyrinth and be free (As said in the ending of the videogame). Maybe other more meaning inside of the game, but thats the one for me.

[@TheRealKingDaniel]

Proper belly laugh at "right, now I can finish unpacking"

[@GoogleUser-ms6hr]

The soundtrack and sound design of this game had no business being this good

[@quillclock]

that was amazing!

[@willsonpiercepua]

this game feels homey and comfy

[@LuminousLead]

That was a good experience. =D

[@G-Cole-01]

🦀🦀🦀THE WINDOWS ARE GONE 🦀🦀🦀

[@dontunder2005]

I got an ad for mugs right when he was placing the mugs

[@Scribbled_Death]

this house has no windows and it must scream

[@notapplicable9243]

Can't have shit in detroit.

[@jedtrishani7029]

‘The windows are gone’ just put them back lmao

[@ilius2530]

i like how this game developed tension and didnt rely on jumpscares

[@ShineTermiten]

It feels really good seeing a brazilian game having recognition ❤

[@briandust193]

53:44 Ah, yes. The most appropriate reaction to that sight: "Oh."

[@VulpeRenard]

"I don't know what a babadook is." You know what a duende is, Leon? ... Same thing.

[@SSmotzer]

Remember kids, at the first sign of mold in your walls or ceiling, remove it.

[@kenpatchiramasama1076]

The windows were indeed gone.