Violin and viola for large and small hands

By default, violins and violas have a string spacing at the upper nut of 16.5 to 17mm, measured from the middle of the first string to the middle of the fourth string. For many musicians this fits wonderfully, but for many others it results in enormous problems, which not infrequently lead to giving up playing the violin.
Especially for tall (young) men with large hands and strong bone structure, we need larger string spacing of, for example, 18 or even 19 mm and wider fingerboards to match. For (young) women with slender fingers, on the other hand, we need much narrower fingerboards and smaller string spacing of about 16 mm and less.
The background to this and solutions we show in this video.
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A big thank you to the fabulous Alexander String Quartet for letting us use their fantastic performance of the Dvořák Piano Quintet in A Major, Op 81 - III. Scherzo:
kzbin.info/door/vJi...

[@thefisherking78]

I'm a middle-aged guy with big hands (think XL work gloves) and I had toyed with the idea of learning violin for almost 30 years. Recently when I decided to get serious about it, I went with viola (although I may eventually try both) and this was a big reason why. I didn't want to be frustrated and give up.

[@ARCUSMuesing]

There are also many violas out there with rather narrow fingerboards and tight string spacing, so make sure that your fingertips can stop the middle strings without touching the strings right and left. If you prefer the sound of the violin, ask a violin shop or two or three if they can provide you with a violin with wide string spacing. This may also help other male players in the future and can bring this question to attention.

[@martatessi]

Thank You so much. I have a Stainer copy, and it has a very thin neck, it's excelent for my small hands. It's neck is thinner than the 3/4 Stainer I also have. I think my large Stainer is 130 years old. I World like you to talk about violins for small persons. Thank you!

[@mezzopiano3119]

I had noticed that Herdim sells two templates for nut fitting, one with the standard narrow spacing (16.5mm between the centres of the E and G strings) and one with wide spacing (E and G outer edges at 2.5mm from the fingerboard edges, which leads, with typical string diameters and a fingerboard width at the nut of 23.5-24mm, to a spacing between E and G string centres of slightly less than 18-18.5mm). Now I know why. Thanks for the insight!

[@ARCUSMuesing]

Sure, only that those 18 to 18.5 mm are not even wide enough for big finger bones like mine (and many other taller guys).

[@PWL1371]

Thank you for taking the time to make this video. I've had the mindset to give up lately. Having very large hands I cannot get my fingers to press only one string. Easily two at a time, always have a muted sound, this explains everything .

[@ARCUSMuesing]

Hello PWL, the next issue will be to find a violin with a wider string spacing or getting your luthier/violin shop to modify a violin for you. Please share with us your progress on this.

[@martatessi]

Is it possible to put a 3/4 violin neck on a 4/4 violin to gain comfort and not lose sound? Thank you so much

[@SF-ru3lp]

Arcus it is brilliant to hear you explain all this! I am an adult student. I played badly over a few years when in school. I realise now how much I love playing but there was so little good technique taught. My big problem, I have recently resulted is that I have a small hand and thd gull size violin was starting to become a real problem. I have recently purchased a 7/8 size violin and the ease that it gives me is enormous! I would like to learn some Paganini so I need to be able to learn to play 10ths! I had to stop your video early on in order to respond to you testimony! Thank you! Now .... back to your video. G Ire

[@ernstviolinpiano]

I have a 5 string violin which sounds quite good and have decided to set it up with 4 strings for more space. 😁

[@olivegreen1351]

Thank you for the English version

[@SpawN95]

my middle and ring fingers are both 19mm wide and my index finger is 18mm. So a little bit wider than yours. I began playing double stops and had always to press one string up or down so I can make room for the other strings to vibrate. Luckily I found your video and now I will for sure go and visit a luthier. Thank you very much for this video! Usually people on the internet tell stuff like "get better or cut your fingernails" , which might be often the case but ( as I know now) not always.

[@ARCUSMuesing]

Please do let me know how your luthier responds and if things are fixed for you.

[@SpawN95]

@@ARCUSMuesing The luthier installed a new nut with wider grooves(maximum of what was possible on my violin) and that way was able to increase the string width from 14,5mm to 18,5mm(costed me only 50 Euros). For me it made an astronomical difference. Before I had to press my finger forcefully into an another string, as for example: If I had my finger on the D-String and wanted to play it together with the A-string, I had to press my finger hard aganist the G-string. Now I can just comfortably roll over the finger , still touching the other string but not pressing against it anymore. So all the cramping and pressing is basically gonne. Therefore thank you again for the tip!

[@ARCUSMuesing]

@@SpawN95 I'm so happy for you and really glad that my discovery has helped.

[@user-oe3en2jr9y]

وانا مثلك،شكرا لك

[@hiey24]

absolutely right. Thank you!

[@ARCUSMuesing]

Thank you!

[@jackwilloughby239]

Excellent discussion. I had the same problem, and I started late as well (17). It took me 46 years to solve. The last thing I had to conquer was a short little finger and scale length. I got a luthier to shorten the scale length by nearly half an inch by making an extra long nut. I can now do fingered octaves, but not chromatically until I get to third position. I have to add that I also moved the strings closer together at the Bridge so I can grab a fifth in 7th position. Also I believe the baroque violins, had a flatter bridge to make the triple stops possible with the baroque bow. I don't believe the Bluegrass players really changed anything about the baroque violin, because I've seen some of those old violins in the Appalachian Mountains of North Carolina, and they don't have the graft. The scale is very short, by as much as an inch. I've gone through much the same mental process as you have Musing. I postulated "What if Paganini had been a Ballerina with size 14 feet? Would everyone be expected to Dance in his shoes?" I think the solution could be easily solved at the youth level with 3D printed fingerboard/nut combinations with a little sizing guide that measure the width of fingers and also the reach. I really had a tough time trying to get my luthier at the time to do this work. It was just "Not to be done." So it took a lot of convincing on my part. Cheers, Jack

[@ARCUSMuesing]

Hi Jack, thanks for sharing your experience. It does take quite some talking to convince most luthiers to mover their attention from the instrument and their craft to the players needs. I'm glad to hear you managed to do it. Regarding 3D-printing I have to ad that those plastics got a lot of damping, which is bad for the sound. There is also the question of durability / wear, I guess not in a league with high quality ebony. But then, it can all be done in ebony, so there is no general problem.

[@chrisebbesen5798]

Excellant, very thoughtful.

[@ARCUSMuesing]

Thanks you. Please share among all teachers and luthiers you run into. We need to spread this.

[@adelkharisov]

This video was so helpful you can’t even imagine!

[@ARCUSMuesing]

Thank you, we are very happy to hear that.

[@michaelblaney4461]

Thats why i play the electric bass , when i buy a regular guitar i have to really play many to find a neck that is comfortable . The nuts on my basses vary , thinist is 38mm largest is 46mm

[@ARCUSMuesing]

The same applies for classical and steel guitars. I just can't play most steel guitars as their neck is narrower and the narrow string spacing makes it impossible for me to play some clean chords, while the classical guitar is just okay.

[@francoisvillon1300]

Играйте на альте и будет вам счастье. На большом, красивом 17,5-дюймовом альте!

[@BarroqueSpirit]

Usted está en lo cierto. También sucede que manos "normales" pero con dedos finos, no pueden quintar correctamente. Gracias por difundir este tipo de información que explica causas de malas ejecuciones, y el hecho de buscar adaptar el instrumento a las manos individuales hace que sea más inclusivo el estudio y el abordaje de estos instrumentos. Esto serían parte de problemas opuestos. kzbin.info/www/bejne/q52Wi3-ibcxjesk kzbin.info/www/bejne/eGOmpaehq8yKaMU Bravo, felicitaciones y gracias Maestro!!!

[@ghlscitel6714]

I had exactly the same problem. Now I bought a violin on ebay which is for repair. My plan was to add a new fingerboard which is also around 25 mm wide - just like you did. My fingers are also 16 mm wide. It was a mess playing double stops. I am curious how Itzak Perlman with his sausage fingers managed to play in such a divine way. I am in the middle of the construction. Will se how it works. After 10 years of violin education I stopped because my playing was discomforting me too much and my physics studies +earning the living costs and tuition +Japanese girlfriend stressed me a lot. Now I am retired and started playing again, tinkering with violins and now need a good bow.

[@ARCUSMuesing]

Itzak Perman and many other well rounded people may have very well rounded fingers but that doesn't mean they have wide fingertips, and only they are the "problem". It really is not the question of muscles or fat, but of bones. Most people with really wide shoulder, large feet etc. also have wide fingertips.

[@jeffschramm4813]

@ghlscitel6714 Are you happy now with the wider fingerboard? Has it helped, any regrets, what has been your experience since modifying your violin?

[@deadmanswife3625]

03:06 Demonstrating the social finger

[@martatessi]

Is it possible to put a 3/4 violin neck on a 4/4 violin to gain comfort and not lose sound? Thank you

[@ARCUSMuesing]

The length of the string is key to the sound, so if you shorten the string by more than a few millimeter, the sound will change significantly. The other problem would be that playing in higher position would become much more difficult. If playing a 4/4 violin is not comfortable for you I would suggest trying a properly built 7/8 or even a 3/4 violin.

[@juliejules7780]

People with larger hands have an advantage over smaller. They can teach tenths easier and other intervals

[@ARCUSMuesing]

That's true. But there is very little music on my skill level that requires anything above an octave. So it's not really an advantage. But the size of the fingertips is something that is overlooked so badly up to now... Just recently discusses this topic with a couple more luthiers and they had a really hard time coming to grips with this. The other problem is that most people with wide finger tips stop playing rather early without leaving a note behind and telling everybody why (simply because most are not even aware that this is their problem), so neither their teacher nor the luthiers will take note. Usually it is talked down to being a "puberty" issue. As if girls would not go through puberty...

[@juliejules7780]

@@ARCUSMuesing I have tiny hands so even the violin is too big for me. If I move the bridge closer to the fingerboard will it make the intervals smaller? I would think someone with larger hands could benefit from playing cello or Viola.

[@kirsitahtinen9968]

Started whit 4/4 but it´s more easier to play 7/8 size I got 8 month a go.

[@AVToth]

Where did you get your 7/8 violin?

[@kirsitahtinen9968]

@@AVToth my violin is from Guy How howviolins In Finland. You need to Google it your self KZbin dont let me make a link for it. If you live In USA there is Fiddlerman In Florida.

[@AVToth]

@@kirsitahtinen9968 Thank you. Great coincidence, I love Fiddlerman. I bought both my violins there. They are extremely knowledgeable, helpful and so trustworthy. I bought the concert series and they are beautiful and sound beautiful. I will contact them. I have another questionn. First, I'd heard of 7/8ths violin but didn't find any place that advertised them. I'm on a ranch in Texas so physically going to check out different places is a very long drive. Is your bow full size? I've heard of a "lady's bow". I've got rheumatoid arthritis and even small amounts of weight are beginning to be of consequence. I tried my granddaughter's 3/4 bow. It was good for a laugh. I see men playing and the bow looks about half the size of when a woman is playing. A woman looks like she's wielding a broomstick whille a man looks like he's bowing with a toy broomstik. I see men playing whose hand is the width of first position and they really don't have to stretch or move their hand up or down. While I wish I could do that, I would look very stupid with my arms but man size hands! Thank you again.

[@andreafiorito9491]

this doesn't make sense to me. What about chords on higher positions then? Take paganini 1st caprice as example. strings become wider and further from the fingerboard moving towards the bridge.

[@ARCUSMuesing]

Andrea, the higher you go on the fingerboard, the more relevant becomes the string spacing of the bridge and the shape of the fingerboard. And here we have basically the same problem: Pretty much all violins and violas have the same string spacing at the bridge just like on the upper nut, and that is not adjusted to the width of the finger tips of the players. For me, the standard spacing at the bridge in combination with the wider spacing at the nut works in all positions, from half position to all the way up. How wide are your finger tips?

[@andreafiorito9491]

@@ARCUSMuesing I have average fingers for by average build, I'm 1.70 tall. You're measuring fingers only laterally, but it seems to me that fingers are smaller from nail to fingerprint. A violinist can place the fingers with the plane of the nail perpendicular to the string or parallel to it (nails facing towards the bridge or nails facing towards the left side of violin), and usually when using the perpendicular position you want to have an higher surface to hit 2 strings. Also with perpendicular nail to string it's easier to have more distance from second to third finger. When you move higher on the fingerboard though you need less distance between fingers and I find more functional a position of the hand with nails parallel to the strings. Anyway for smaller hands your solution will give benefits only on the first position, cause in higher position you will have more space anyway. Probably having a custom made violin that adapts to your body it's the best, but I'd not consider that a practical solution in every case. I would start experimenting with different positions of the hand first of all. Just my two cents.

[@ARCUSMuesing]

@@andreafiorito9491 You are right of course the fingers are wider than thick. But no matter what hand position, they are always at an angle to the strings, around 30° to 50° in my case. You can check millions of pictures of players and you will find exactly the same. Female players and smaller players tend to be more flexible in their wrist than taller players with a wider wrist, which only exacerbates this problem. With 1,70 m your fingers are most probably perfectly suited for the standard string spacing. So I understand why you don't understand the problem. If you have never tried to walk in shoes size 39 when your feet are size 42, you can not understand how much it hurts. I'm 1,85 and have pretty large and wide bones all over the body, wide hips, knees, large feet and, importantly, very large hands and rather wide finger tips. But of course there are taller guys than me with even wider finger tips. And while I can just manage to play a normal violin with exactly the hand twisting and all other tricks, those even taller people have no chance to play the violin at all. Now why would you want to exclude them from this fantastic instrument?